Ukraine Army Orbat

[Big-E]

Can anyone give an updated list? How many T-80 and T-84s have been introduced to the force structure. How is the T-84 superior to the T-80U.

[oskarm]

Not more than a single coy. Now the piority in heavy forces is modernisation of T-64. If you are intrested in more specific info (not very specific, but including number of brigades and equpment), I'll find an a article in nTW Magazine about Ukrainian Orbat and situation of their armed forces.

[Big-E]

Not more than a single coy. Now the piority in heavy forces is modernisation of T-64.

Wow out of all the exports they send they haven't acquired more than a company eh. Can you give any details about the T-64 upgrades?

Actually found this on the 64B...

http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/bulat.php?menu=def2.php

I could use that OrBat

[oskarm]

Yes it's this modernization (they are planning to modernize a few dozens a year). I'll give you more info about numbers of T-84 and other gear tomorrow. Now it's 2 AM in Poland.:cat

[oskarm]

According to "nowa Technika Wojskowa" (nTW) issue Jan. 2005 only 8 T-84 were introduced to service in Ukrainian Army.

According to nTW issue Apr. 2006 modernized T-64 will receive ATGM Kombat and new APDSFS witch can penetrate at least 650mm of RHA.

[Big-E]

I'm not familiar with the KOMBAT. I googled but didn't find much. Any details would be appreciated. Also how would it be fitted on the tank?

On a side not what is the relationship with the Poles? How come they're peacekeepers are under a Polish command?

[Izzy1]

Armour TOP

Type Role Quantity
T-54/55 Main Battle Tank (2) 112
T-64 Main Battle Tank (2) 2,215
T-72 Main Battle Tank (2) 1,180
T-84 Main Battle Tank (2) 6
T-80/90 Main Battle Tank (2) 271
PT-76 Amphibious Light Tank 50
MT-LB Multi-Purpose Vehicle 2,090
MT-LB Support Vehicle 4,000
BRDM-1/2 Amphibious Scout Car 600
BMP-1 Infantry Fighting Vehicle 1,008
BMP-2 Infantry Fighting Vehicle 1,434
BMP-3 Infantry Fighting Vehicle 4
BMD-1 Airborne Combat Vehicle 61
BMD-2 Airborne Combat Vehicle 78
BTR-60 Armoured Personnel Carrier 176
BTR-70 Armoured Personnel Carrier 1,026
BTR-80 Armoured Personnel Carrier 456
BTR-D Armoured Personnel Carrier 44

Notes
(1)Considerable numbers of T-54/55 main battle tanks have been put into storage or were sold in 1994-95; data on T-64 numbers has been reassessed in the light of details emerging from Kiev. The numbers of Russian-built T-80 and the locally developed T-84/T-90 tanks is estimated.

(2)The total figure for tanks disclosed at the CFE Treaty meeting in December 2003 was 3,784.


Jane's World Armies (Updated 25-August-2006)



A very respectable set of figures and their artillery and army aviation numbers are not too bad either.

[Big-E]

A very respectable set of figures and their artillery and army aviation numbers are not too bad either.

What kind and how much artillery is Ukraine packing?

[oskarm]

Brigades:
Each armored or mechanized brigade consist of 4 battalions (or battalion battle groups), a HQ battalion, a mixed artillery battalion with BM-21 and 2S3, and a AA battalion armed usually with Striela-10 and ZSU-23-4 (8-12 of each one), engineers coy, supply coy.


Battalions:
Armored battalion have 3 tank coys and 1 mechanized coy. Mechanized battalion have 1 tank coy and 3 mechanized coys. In each mechanized brigade one or two battalions are equipped with BMP-1 or 2, other battalions have BTR-70 or 80. Each battalion have a battery of 2S1 SPA or towed D-30 and a battery of man portable SAMs (Striela 2M or Igla). In addition each mech. bat. have a AT battery and a 120mm mortars battery.


I did some photos of OoB form nTW, so I’ll attaché them later. There will be the answer for you question.

Sorce: (nTW) issue Jan. 2005

[Izzy1]

Ukrainian Artillery

System/Role Quantity
203mm 2S7 SPH 100
152mm D-20 Howitzer 216
152mm 2A65 Howitzer 185
152mm 2A36 Howitzer 289
152mm 2S3 SPH 496
152mm 2S5 SPH 24
152mm 2S9 SPH 74
122mm D-30 Howitzer 443
122mm 2S1 SPH 638
120mm 2S12 Gun Mortar 342
120mm 2S9 Gun Mortar 74
300mm 9A52 MRLS 94
220mm 9P140 MRLS 139
122mm BM-21 MRL 332
122mm 3P138 MRL 20
FROG 7 SSM 50 (1)
Tochka SS-21 SSM 90 (1)
120mm M43 Mortar 250
107mm M107 Mortar 500
82mm M37M Mortar 750

*(1) - Ukrainian SSM units are only equipped with conventional HE or cluster munitions.
(2) Despite high overall numbers, large stocks of older systems are likely to be in a poor state of repair.


Sources - Jane's World Armies 2006 (Update 25/08/2006); International Institute of Strategic Studies "The Military Balance 2006".

[eckherl]

A newer version of T84, Ukrainian defense ministry announced a purchase of 10 T84 tanks, I wonder if they will be this upgraded version.:D

[DavidDCM]

That would be cool, but the GWB-lookalike that seems to be a Ukrainian top brass hat also climbed around in a more traditional looking T-84 on that event.

I'm not sure if it is an Oplot though.

[Feanor]

They're not likely to get much of either one, given the atrocious situation in the armed forces. Even the battallion level T-90 procurement in Russia is considered ridiculously low. Procurement of a few tanks annually will have practically no effect on the over force structure, or equipment. Essentially once the motor resources of those tanks start running out, the Ukranians are screwed.

EDIT: By the way an actual ORBAT, not just equipment listings, with divisions and deployments, would be greatly appreciated.

[eckherl]

That would be cool, but the GWB-lookalike that seems to be a Ukrainian top brass hat also climbed around in a more traditional looking T-84 on that event.

I'm not sure if it is an Oplot though.

Yep - it`s Oplot minus the Muzzle reference system, the photo that I posted most likely is a Urbanized kit for Oplot.

[Stimpy75]

Yep - it`s Oplot minus the Muzzle reference system, the photo that I posted most likely is a Urbanized kit for Oplot.
The Oplot has the new NOZH ERA,which should give all around protection against tandem-warheads.it´s equipped with a 6TD-3 1400 hp engine.

[Feanor]

It's not in active service.

[eckherl]

The Oplot has the new NOZH ERA,which should give all around protection against tandem-warheads.it´s equipped with a 6TD-3 1400 hp engine.

Agreed, they are supposed to get a small order of 10 of them with more to follow, armor protection is quite impressive along the hull sides.

[eckherl]

It's not in active service.

10 on order with more to follow.

[Feanor]

10 on order with more to follow.

I used active service to denote delivery to standard line units. I.e. if tomorrow a war broke between Russia and Ukraine out then yeah those ten tanks would probably be in combat. But if tomorrow Ukraine rotates it's deployment to Iraq, and decides to deploy an armored unit(I know that's impossible, just using it as an example), it would be armed with T-72s, or T-80s. And with due respect, think you should put a little more skepticism into statements like "plans to" or "more to follow".

[eckherl]

I used active service to denote delivery to standard line units. I.e. if tomorrow a war broke between Russia and Ukraine out then yeah those ten tanks would probably be in combat. But if tomorrow Ukraine rotates it's deployment to Iraq, and decides to deploy an armored unit(I know that's impossible, just using it as an example), it would be armed with T-72s, or T-80s. And with due respect, think you should put a little more skepticism into statements like "plans to" or "more to follow".

Whats your point,

Who cares how many that they have, this is a upgraded version of a tank that they will enter into service. Also do not look at to many T-72s tearing thru any future battle, the majority of tanks operated by Ukraine consist of T-64 and T-80 series tanks.

[Feanor]

True. More T-64 then T-80. In fact given the numbers we have, ~2000 T-64, ~1000 T-72, and ~300 T-80, the T-80 are the ones not likely to be tearing through future battles. But given that the manufacturing and maintenance facilities in Ukraine are more available for the T-64 and T-80 types, the T-64 is likely to be the Ukranian MBT for the next decade or so at least.

EDIT: I guess my point is that showing off flashy prototypes that are essentially not in serial production is not a sign of a good military. It seems like many people think along the lines "OMg T-84. Ukraine = win." or "OmG T-95 (or Black Eagle. Russia = win." When really these tanks are in no way indicative of the general situation. If we want to asses the capabilities of the Ukrainian Army then we should look at the types in service, look at what (if any) large scale military exercises have taken place, what kind of funds are devoted to maintenance, and modernization, and the actual troop deployments. I would be quite interested in that kind of analysis, but this thread isn't producing anything along those lines :(

[eckherl]

True. More T-64 then T-80. In fact given the numbers we have, ~2000 T-64, ~1000 T-72, and ~300 T-80, the T-80 are the ones not likely to be tearing through future battles. But given that the manufacturing and maintenance facilities in Ukraine are more available for the T-64 and T-80 types, the T-64 is likely to be the Ukranian MBT for the next decade or so at least.

EDIT: I guess my point is that showing off flashy prototypes that are essentially not in serial production is not a sign of a good military. It seems like many people think along the lines "OMg T-84. Ukraine = win." or "OmG T-95 (or Black Eagle. Russia = win." When really these tanks are in no way indicative of the general situation. If we want to asses the capabilities of the Ukrainian Army then we should look at the types in service, look at what (if any) large scale military exercises have taken place, what kind of funds are devoted to maintenance, and modernization, and the actual troop deployments. I would be quite interested in that kind of analysis, but this thread isn't producing anything along those lines :(

I actually agree with the Russians when it comes to dedicating armor into a battle, a tank is just a tool, if you do not have everything else in place during a battle it will most likely become a worthless piece of junk. Georgian armor hade some impressive armor upgrades and we see how well that panned out, as a recent example.

The amount of T-64 BM and T-84 upgrades and purchases have been rather dismal, I think Ukraine has only a few hundred Bulants (T-64) that have been upgraded with a around twenty T-84 Oplot purchases. Ukrainian armored and mechanized ground forces are in sad shape due to economy issue`s, and that will not change anytime soon, the same holds true for Russia.

[Feanor]

From what I know (my knowledge is rather limited) there is ~31 Bulats. Well the only ORBAT I found was on wikipedia. I'll list them off.

Armored
1st - T-64, T-64BM (31 of them), Tunguska, Kiev MD
17th - T-64B, Kiev MD

Mechanized
24th - with BMP-2 and T-64, Carpathian MD
28th - BMP-2, Odessa MD
30th - high readyness formations (all contract) members served in peacekeeping missions, BMP-2, Carpathian MD
51st - BMP-2 and an unknown tanks (50th independent tank btln) requires 400 reservists to get up to strength - Carpathian MD
72nd - T-64, Kiev MD
92nd - took part in OIF and varous peacekeeping missions, Kiev MD
93rd - BMP-2, Tunguska, T-64B, BRM-1, Igla MANPADS, MT-LB(not sure 100%, based on a photo), Kiev MD
128th - BTR-70, BMP-2, Carpathian MD
300th - Carpathian MD

A note on Ukranian Brigades. Most are of division strength, consisting of 3 mechanized regiments and 1 armored regiment(or vice versa for armored units), and simply being renamed into brigades. And another note, T-64 and T-64B are different in the list I posted. Finally the BMP-1 is in service with several brigades, but I haven't been able to pinpoint them.

Airborne
1st Airborne Division - Odessa MD
25th Airborne Brigade - BMD-1, BMD-2, Il-76, An-70, ZU-32-2
45th Airmobile Brigade
27th Mechanized Brigade (yes it's actually part of the 1st airmobile, even though it's a mechanized unit)
91st Artillery Regiment
95th Airmobile Brigade (independent of the 1st Airborne) - deployments to Iraq, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Carpathian MD
79th Independent Airmobile Regiment - Mi-8, Mi-24, Odessa MD
80th Independent Airmobile Regiment - BTR-80, Iraq deployments, Carpathian MD
EDIT: I'll try to find more info when I have time.

[Stimpy75]

Agreed, they are supposed to get a small order of 10 of them with more to follow, armor protection is quite impressive along the hull sides.
Ukraine also ordered 10 BTR-4 from Morozov.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_1144.html?PHPSESSID=d23abe6c1c3c2edba1b7a2 5cc8ec4fc7

[Feanor]

You know come to think of it, it's strange. Ukraine doesn't have any T-72's or T-80's in active service (nevermind T-84). Yet they're selling T-72's from their army stocks abroad. Now I understand taking the T-72 out of service, the production and maintenance for them is concentrated in Russia. But it looks like the T-80's they had aren't in service either. How come?

[eckherl]

You know come to think of it, it's strange. Ukraine doesn't have any T-72's or T-80's in active service (nevermind T-84). Yet they're selling T-72's from their army stocks abroad. Now I understand taking the T-72 out of service, the production and maintenance for them is concentrated in Russia. But it looks like the T-80's they had aren't in service either. How come?

Lack of money I would suspect as being some of the reasons, but why they went for T-64s over T-80`s during their initial upgrade phase is quite interesting.

[Feanor]

http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/049057052048124056048055054.html

Apparently Ukraine is set to modernize a second T-64 btln to the BM "Bulat" standard. Also serial production of the T-84 is supposed to begin, but no numbers or dates are given. I'm thinking that it's more of a continuation of the previous T-64 modernization, rather then a new program.

I'm curious does anyone here know whether a T-64 baseline (not T-64B) can be brought up to the BM standard? The Ukranian Army employs a mix of T-64 and T-64B.

[eckherl]

http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/049057052048124056048055054.html

Apparently Ukraine is set to modernize a second T-64 btln to the BM "Bulat" standard. Also serial production of the T-84 is supposed to begin, but no numbers or dates are given. I'm thinking that it's more of a continuation of the previous T-64 modernization, rather then a new program.

I'm curious does anyone here know whether a T-64 baseline (not T-64B) can be brought up to the BM standard? The Ukranian Army employs a mix of T-64 and T-64B.

Should not be a major issue, the difference between T - 64 A and T - 64 B is that the B model has a uparmored hull and ballistic computer matched up to a laser range finder (LRF).

Here is a upgrade shot that are floating around inregards to T-84, let me just say that to see it in this configuration tells me that they are worried about western advanced KE projectiles. Modern T series turrets just keep getting bigger and bigger.

[Feanor]

I thought they had a different main gun? (2A46-1 vs 2A46-2) As well as a different stabilizer (2E26 vs 2E26M) and a different loader (6ETs10M vs 6ETs40).

I believe that the BM upgrade replaces the FCS so that difference would hardly matter. However a different main gun might affest barrel-fired ATGMs (just a guess, I don't really know).

[Tavarisch]

Since we're talking about the T-series, does anyone here know how many BM-42Ms and BM-48s are in ACTUAL service? Just asking.