UK Military Vehicle Purchases for Iraq / Afghanistan

[riksavage]

The link at the foot of this thread provides a summary of recent UK Military upgrades, specifically the 'Vector' and 'Mastiff' wheeled armoured troop transports for Iraq and Afghanistan (photos included). The Mastiff is a derivative of the Cougar as used by the USMC in Iraq. The photo of the Mastiff shown in the article clearly shows additional armour plate has been added to the sides, which whilst providing added protection appears to restrict access to the drivers cab.

I would be interested to hear how the Mastiff and Vector compares to similar vehicles such as the Bushmaster with regards to protection and performance.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewProtectedPatrolVehiclesForIraqAndAfghanistanPut ThroughTheirPaces.htm

[riksavage]

I note the UK has put out a urgent requirement for up to 180 Medium protected vehicles to bridge the gap between the Mastiff 6 x 6 Heavy and Pinzgauer Vector 6X6 Light protected vehicles for use in Afghanistan / Iraq, in-service date 2009. The selected vehicle will be an off-the-shelf purchase, and must not weigh more than 14-Tonnes and be able to support a crew of seven.

I’m trying to evaluate what are the best solutions on the market now, which meet the stated specifications and provide optimum protection – Bushmaster comes to mind. Interested to hear what choice of vehicle the forum would go for and why?

[Waylander]

One could also buy the long version of the Dingo 2. Up to eight passengers, RWS with 7.62mm GPMG, 12.7mm HMG or 40mm AGL and a nice mine/IED protection. Protection against 7.62mm AP. In use with Germany, Belgium and Austria with the US and Israel considering to buy some of them.

There are also several interesting vehicles from South Africa (Like Casspir) and the US (M117 ASV).

How much do they want to pay?

And what is the gap they talk about?
In the end it looks like the Mastiff is exactly in the specifications of a mine protected vehicle with less than 14 tons and a crew of min. seven.

[swerve]

One could also buy the long version of the Dingo 2. Up to eight passengers, RWS with 7.62mm GPMG, 12.7mm HMG or 40mm AGL and a nice mine/IED protection. Protection against 7.62mm AP. In use with Germany, Belgium and Austria with the US and Israel considering to buy some of them.

There are also several interesting vehicles from South Africa (Like Casspir) and the US (M117 ASV).

How much do they want to pay?

And what is the gap they talk about?
In the end it looks like the Mastiff is exactly in the specifications of a mine protected vehicle with less than 14 tons and a crew of min. seven.

The Mastiff (Force Protection Cougar 6x6) has a max. weight of 52K lb, i.e. 23.6 tons, & a "curb weight" of 38K lb, or 17.2 tons.
http://www.forceprotection.net/models/cougar/specs/cougar6x6_spec.pdf
Even the Cougar 4x4 is over the 14 ton ceiling.

The Dingo 2 does fit the spec - http://www.kmweg.com/gb/Dingo%20ENG.pdf

[Waylander]

Ah thanks, I stand corrected.

I accidently looked at the Cougar H and than at the empty weight. :crazy

[Boertjie]

Hi guys
Being a South african, I would think they aught to look at the RG31/RG32 series of APC's. These are build by BAE Land systems division - Alvis OMC in south Africa, and have proven themselves numerous times in Irak and Afganistan, with Canadian and US forces currently deployed there. Similar APC's have been in operation with the old SADF in Angola and have shown there worth in battle many a time. Check the specs on the BAE OMC site: ...baesystemsomc...

[riksavage]

The UK has recently placed an ‘urgent operational requirement’ order for 32 Pandur 6x6 vehicles, which I believe falls into the required weight restriction (only just). The government has confirmed this is not part of the FRES project.

Concerning FRES the UK government has now dropped the C130 lift requirement and now changed the spec to A400 lift capable. Based on recent experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan there is no way a suitable vehicle of the right weight could be found, which could be also be carried in a C130. Update below:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/05/future-combat-systems-in-the-crosshairs/index.php

[Super Nimrod]

What happened to the JCB HMUV that was announced last year ? I understood that once armoured that would be in this weight category ? Not seen or heard anything since. They would certainly have the productive capacity if they had the machine available

[buglerbilly]

The UK has recently placed an ‘urgent operational requirement’ order for 32 Pandur 6x6 vehicles, which I believe falls into the required weight restriction (only just). The government has confirmed this is not part of the FRES project.

Would you care to give me a link to that statement?

I cannot see a single reason why the UK would order PANDUR 1 or 2. Neither meet any UOR or whatever that I am aware of..........IF the UK did go for this category of vehicle they would be far more likely to go for a LAV IV if not LAV V.............even LAV III/STRYKER is unlikely and Pandur II does not match III.

Regards,

BUG

[riksavage]

25 April 2007 JDW:
Article: "Full Padur II Production Commences For Portugal"
Author: Christopher F Foss

Mentions the following: Pudur responding to an urgent requirement to supply 32 6x6 Pandur Vehicles for delivery within one year. The Pandurs are destined for an undesclosed application unrelated to the 8x8 utility variant of FRES.

[buglerbilly]

Mentions the following: Pudur responding to an urgent requirement to supply 32 6x6 Pandur Vehicles for delivery within one year. The Pandurs are destined for an undesclosed application unrelated to the 8x8 utility variant of FRES.

"Responding" means they may be BIDDING for an UOR tender, NOT supplying against a signed contract, which does not appear on any of the MoD's websites...........:cool:

[riksavage]

my mistake, I fall on my sword!:shudder

[Alpha Epsilon]

So the summary for the additional armour purchase is like this:

180 Medium armoured vehicles - unknown which one (apparently the Piranha is a strong candidate)
166 Pinzgauer PPVs
124 FV432 Bulldog upgrades (plus another 376 or so FV432 upgraded without the additional armour)
108 Mastiff
21 BvS10

What about the long term? How will these purchases influence FRES? The BvS10 purchase will imo have no effect as these will be used "just" by the RMs and RA. Could the Mastiff in the end replace the Saxon? And what about the Pinzgauer? Will more FV432s be upgraded to Bulldog standard (that apparently is doing really well in Iraq) and they'll just serve on for another 15 years? What will the medium vehicle be? And what impact does this have on UK industry? The Pinzaguer, the FV432 and partly (the shells iirc) the BvS10 are produced in the UK respectively by Armour Holdings (soon to be BAE Systems), BAE Systems/ABRO and BAE Systems. The Mastiff is produced in the USA by Force Protection. BAE Systems in the UK has a licence to build Piranhas, is this an advantage to the Piranha?

[riksavage]

These vehicles are being paid for by the Treasury, not out of the MOD's exisiting budget apparently, however knowing Browne he will want to rob from Peter to pay Paul!

The latest requirement is for a 14 tonne vehicle along the lines of the BAE RG33. The UK military has recently visited the US Marines to look at what they have evaluated for a similar 'off the shelf' requirement to provide additional IED protected vehicles for use in Iraq/Afghanistan.

[buglerbilly]

The 21 x BvS10 Vikings are for WATCHKEEPER, the UAV programme see the original announcement below............

Further Viking Armoured Vehicle Buy will Protect UK Troops

02 May 2007 | Ref. 130/2007

Ornskolsvik, Sweden. - The UK Ministry of Defence has awarded BAE Systems a contract for an additional 21 BvS10 Viking armoured all-terrain vehicles. The UK's Royal Marine Commandos took delivery of an earlier batch of 108 in July 2003.

The BAE Systems Hägglunds armoured all-terrain vehicles will be used for transporting equipment for the Watchkeeper unmanned aerial vehicle. Production deliveries will commence second half of 2008 with prototype vehicles being delivered at the end of 2007.

The Viking was selected due to its high load capacity, protection and mobility. Hägglunds’ director for marketing and sales, Arne Berglund, says: “The performance, reliability and cost efficiency of the BvS10 is good news, both for the soldiers in the front line and the taxpayer.”

[Alpha Epsilon]

Yes. I think they'll be operated by the Royal Artillery. On a further note, Thales UK has now frozen the design for the Watchkeeper (based on the Elbit Hermes) UAV.

The BvS10 purchase will imo have no effect as these will be used "just" by the RMs and RA.

[buglerbilly]

The same UAV, the Hermes 450, has now been selected by Singapore as well of course.

Regards,

BUG

[riksavage]

The following link shows Vectors and Mastiffs deployed in theatre. The Mastiff has been heavily up-armoured when compared to the parent cougar vehicle with the addition of side armour and RPG screens.

http://www.defenceimagedatabase.mod.uk/fotoweb/Grid.fwx?folderid=5004&SF_GROUP1_BOOLEAN=and&SF_FIELD1_GROUP=1&SF_FIELD1_MATCHTYPE=any&SF_FIELD1=afghanistan&SF_GROUP1_FIELD=&SF_GROUP2_BOOLEAN=or&SF_FIELD2_GROUP=2&SF_FIELD2_MATCHTYPE=all&SF_FIELD2=herrick&SF_GROUP2_FIELD=&SF_GROUP3_BOOLEAN=and&SF_FIELD3_GROUP=3&SF_FIELD3_MATCHTYPE=all&SF_FIELD3=&SF_GROUP3_FIELD=&SF_GROUP4_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP4_FIELD=FQYFT&SF_FIELD4_GROUP=4&SF_FIELD4=&SF_GROUP5_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP5_FIELD=FQYFD&SF_GROUP6_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP6_FIELD=FQYFS&SF_GROUP7_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP7_FIELD=FQYIR&SF_FIELD5_GROUP=5&SF_FIELD5=&SF_FIELD5_TO=&SF_FIELD6_GROUP=6&SF_FIELD6=&SF_FIELD6_TO=&SF_FIELD7_GROUP=7&SF_FIELD7=&SF_FIELD7_TO=&SF_GROUP8_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP8_FIELD=FQYIC&SF_GROUP9_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP9_FIELD=FQYFT&SF_GROUP10_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP10_FIELD=&SF_GROUP11_BOOLEAN=and&SF_GROUP11_FIELD=FQYOL&SF_FIELD8_GROUP=8&SF_FIELD8=&SF_FIELD9_GROUP=9&SF_FIELD9=&SF_FIELD10_GROUP=10&SF_FIELD10=&SF_FIELD11_GROUP=11&SF_FIELD11=&Submit=Search+now%21

[riksavage]

The medium utility FRES variant to equip UK forces has now been reduced to the following three options:

• Piranha from General Dynamics
• The Boxer from German-Dutch consortium Artec
• VBCI from France's Nexter.

Trials to begin soon, selection of the winning design scheduled for later in 07.

Now the weight requirement has been increased, Boxer is back in the equation. Interested to hear from others which vehicle would be the most desirable, I for one would opt for Boxer followed by VBCI because both represent newer technology.

[buglerbilly]

I don't see anything in VBCI that puts it beyond Piranha/LAV IV which is the variant already tested in the UK. I'm almost certain LAV V couldn't make it in time?

BOXER's selection would be ironic indeed considering the UK pulled out of the damn programme to continue with FRES!!! :mad:

[Waylander]

In the end the germans and dutch would really laugh their ass of if the UK would purchase Boxers. :D

And that's exactly the reasons why it is not going to be chosen.

[Boertjie]

Hi
If these three were selected, does any of you guys know from what group these were down-selected? If you all think Boxer will not make it, why then is it in this group? To make it look as if they might choose it?
I don't see how they can prefer the Piranha, practicaly an old design with a new face and some slap-on armour, before the Patria AMV. Don't you guys think this Finish design might have been the best choise? If not, why?

[swerve]

Hi
If these three were selected, does any of you guys know from what group these were down-selected? If you all think Boxer will not make it, why then is it in this group? To make it look as if they might choose it?
I don't see how they can prefer the Piranha, practicaly an old design with a new face and some slap-on armour, before the Patria AMV. Don't you guys think this Finish design might have been the best choise? If not, why?

Such naivety. It's sweet.

Piranha IV is marketed in certain countries - including the UK - by BAe, & would be built by BAe if selected by the British army. Now do you see why it was shortlisted? ;)

[Yasin20]

this looks more expensive then the turkish armoured cars which are called the akrep or the cobra

[Waylander]

You compare an armoured car with an advanced wheeled APC/IFV?
That's not really realistic.

And a Piranha III or IV still offers a nice package from where you can choose your own configuration and is for sure competitive with everything else on wheels.

[buglerbilly]

If these three were selected, does any of you guys know from what group these were down-selected? If you all think Boxer will not make it, why then is it in this group? To make it look as if they might choose it?


The down-select came from a group that included the Italian Cantauro IFV version, the Finnish Patria AMV and the diesel/transmission powered SEP not the Diesel-electric-drive hybrid version.

The Italian vehicle was probably not chosen due to cost, the AMV due to cost and/or perceived lack-of-same protection levels as the three finalists, and SEP because its still a developmental-only prototype so "risk" of cost-blowout and schedule delays to delivery have to be higher (counter-pointed by the fact first British Army vehicle delivery is NOT expected until 2011-2012 so schedule is not a facet here in my opinion).

The GD LAV design is almost certainly LAV IV not LAV III as IV has been widely phtographed recently on UK trials.

[riksavage]

The ongoing Afghan / Iraq conflicts have finally forced the MOD to change up a gear. Trails will begin in November, with the finalist sent for further testing (Bowman) next year. About bloody time too!

I place my bets on Boxer (UK having already spent money on the project), it offers an easily adaptable (command, personnel, medical) package with a very strong pedigree.

Also Watchkeeper has finally been signed off (see below), which will, with the addition of numerous hand-launched UAV's, PreditorB and ASTOR coming on line, should significantly boost the UK's surveillance abilities.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/06/uk-gives-green-light-to-watchkeeper-uav/index.php#more

[Yasin20]

You compare an armoured car with an advanced wheeled APC/IFV?
That's not really realistic.

And a Piranha III or IV still offers a nice package from where you can choose your own configuration and is for sure competitive with everything else on wheels.

so you can use the akrep or the cobra as an IFV i seen some cobras with
a turreted version of the 50cals for the cobra or akrep you dont have to get out of the hatch just to man the gun

[swerve]

so you can use the akrep or the cobra as an IFV i seen some cobras with
a turreted version of the 50cals for the cobra or akrep you dont have to get out of the hatch just to man the gun

The Akrep & Cobra are light armoured vehicles, in a different league from the wheeled IFVs the UK is looking at.


Loaded, Cobra weighs 6 tons. Akrep weighs 3.6 tons - similar to the French VBL.

Boxer weighs 25 tons empty, 33 tons fully loaded. It has twice as many wheels as Akrep or Cobra. It has much greater armour protection. VBCI & Piranha are slightly lighter, but only slightly.

Akrep or Cobra seem to be decent vehicles, but of a completely different class. If you want a Turkish-built wheeled IFV, look at Yavuz. That's in the Boxer/VBCI/Piranha IV class.

Here - look 'em all up -

http://www.otokar.com.tr/en/products/product_category.aspx?kategori=10

[riksavage]

The following shows the new supacat destined for Afghanistan for use by infantry units for long range patrols. The UK SAS are replacing their Landrover 'pinkies' with the same vehicle and I understand SASR are testing it to replace their six wheelers.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewPatrolVehiclesWillGiveTroopsEnhancedCapability. htm

[gf0012-aust]

...........and I understand SASR are testing it to replace their six wheelers.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewPatrolVehiclesWillGiveTroopsEnhancedCapability. htm

SASR have named theirs the "Nary" after an SASR trooper ...

[riksavage]

Have the SASR gone for the 4x4 (400) or 6x6 (600) Supacat? Looking at the previous stretched Landrover model one would assume they would have opted for the 6x6.

[buglerbilly]

Both types will most likely be procured so the "tradition" of 6x6's in the SASR will be maintained. Take a look at this link from Supacat UK (notice the comment saying "built under licence from LM!) you'll see in the HMT 6x6 section very nice albeit asmall images of the 6x6 equivalent of the 4x4 LRRP vehicles................

http://www.supacat.com/supacat_products_hmt400.htm

Regards,

BUG

[rossfrb_1]

A small article in the paper version of todays Telegraph made mention of the fact that there might be an imminent deal with one of the US forces (army presumably) for them to purchase up to 1500 Oshkosh produced Bushmasters.
Either page 7 or 9, about 7 lines worth. I can't find any mention on their web based version (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/) and no other paper is running with the story, nor anything in google news. So I'm skeptical ..
Somehow the paper saw it more newsworthy to devote almost an entire page to Paris Hilton's release from jail!!
sheesh

rb

[gf0012-aust]

I can't find any mention on their web based version (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/) and no other paper is running with the story, nor anything in google news. So I'm skeptical ..


Its in the ABC:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/29/1965632.htm?section=justin

as well as

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21986667-953,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21986667-953,00.html)

I attended a DFAT/Austrade meeting some 6 months ago where they indicated that another 150 have been sold to an ex WARPAC country - still no public news on that yet. :unknown

[riksavage]

The attached article looks at the pros and cons of soft-skin open vehicles fitted with increased fire-power vs. enclosed armoured wheeled vehicles and how both have there uses on the battle-field.

The same article also provides a very interesting link to Canadian experiences using main-battle tanks in Afghanistan, reinforcing their decision to drop the idea of a wheeled tank-destroyer and instead buy 2nd-hand Leopard II's.

Funny how events turn full-circle - the tracked main-battle tank still proves an indispensable asset in the harshest of conditions.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/06/british-uor-to-field-130-supacat-mwmik-patrol-vehicles/index.php

[Tasman]

A small article in the paper version of todays Telegraph made mention of the fact that there might be an imminent deal with one of the US forces (army presumably) for them to purchase up to 1500 Oshkosh produced Bushmasters.
Either page 7 or 9, about 7 lines worth. I can't find any mention on their web based version (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/) and no other paper is running with the story, nor anything in google news. So I'm skeptical ..
Somehow the paper saw it more newsworthy to devote almost an entire page to Paris Hilton's release from jail!!
sheesh

rb

Great news if it is true. The article suggests that some of the Bushmasters will be built in Bendigo. I wonder how many?

Cheers

[Super Nimrod]

On a not unrelated topic did anyone take any photos at the defence vehicle dynamics show at Milbrook this week ? What was there that was new ?

[Aussie Digger]

SASR have named theirs the "Nary" after an SASR trooper ...

Er, an SASR Warrant Officer anyway... :p:

[Alpha Epsilon]

The new Tellar vehicle for the Royal Engineers, a new Land Rover Defender 6x6, a new PPV vehicle design (not sure if it was actually there) from S. McNeillie & Son and then I'd imagine the "known" new vehicles such as the Supacat WMIK, the Pinzgauer PPV Vector, the iirc Force Protection Mastiff, FV432 Bulldog upgrade and many other vehicles.

[gf0012-aust]

Er, an SASR Warrant Officer anyway... :p:

Considering that WO's are the closest thing to God (depending on your perspective of course!) I guess I should wash my mouth out with soap.

My excuse is that I'm getting over the flu and my head still feels like the inside of a washing machine on full cycle. :rolleyes:

[European]

The IVECO LMV Panther?

[riksavage]

Due to the success of the earlier upgraded FV430’s the UK has now decided to upgrade an additional 400, bringing the total to 900, the intent being to replace the overworked Warriors operating in Iraq.

Quote: “Whilst the up-armoured "Bulldogs" lack the Warrior's 30mm cannon and blazing speed, they are better protected, have air conditioning, are less hostile-looking to locals, and aren't as apt to tear up local roads due to improved tread designs.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hey-bulldog-britain-orders-more-up-armored-fv430s-03468/#more

Makes sense to me, the Warriors can be returned to the UK for a much needed service and refit, leaving the Bulldogs to provide protection for troops on the ground supplimented by the Mastiffs and Vectors. As the UK winds down in Iraq I’m sure some of these vehicles will be handed over to the Iraqi military to bolster there own forces.

The article also mentions the Canadians are bringing in more M113’s to Afghanistan due to the proven inability of their wheeled LAV-IIIs to handle key combat mobility requirements there – The old dilemma of tracked vs. wheels raises its ugly head and justifies the need for both. Those nations such as NZ who have gone to an ALL wheeled vehicle fllet may one day regret their decision :( .

[DD7578]

Hi,
Does anyone have information about the mount (360 deg shield) on the Mastiff's roof ?
I guess it's designed for 7.62 and 0.50cal guns, but i'd like to know who manufactures it ? Maybe it's just provided by Force Protection...
Thanks !

[sashikanth]

Admin. One liner deleted.

Please read your PM and take note.

[Izzy1]

A Good step in the right direction.

What is?

These one-liners of yours are becoming a touch irritating.

[robsta83]

What is?

These one-liners of yours are becoming a touch irritating.

Tell me about it, I have never bothered with the ignore function before but in this case I might make an exception and use it on him.

[riksavage]

The three FRES wheeled vehicles are now undertaking there final trials at Bovington, the winner will be announced in November with a potential order for 3000 different configerations.

What's your favourate?

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/CandidatesForNextGenerationOfArmouredVehiclesUnvei led.htm

[buglerbilly]

LAV V will win, Boxer would cause too much loss-of-face and I'm NOT sure the ability to replace bodies adds anything apart from weight.

VBCI is the "poor cousin" in all of this and I hardly see the UK Government's main Allies (who virtually all use LAV's of one type or another) being too happy about the UK operating "orphan" armoured vehicles.

It also looks significantly smaller than the others?

[riksavage]

Agreed, with the LAV we can leverage off the experience of the US, Aus and Canada our key allies in Afghanistan. The fact that the UK is looking at a line of sight gun platform means the recent US striker experiments will bring much to the table.

The French option was never a serious contender, too new and not in the same class as the Boxer. The latter will be a difficult option for reasons you have already mentioned, however it's my favourate.

[riksavage]

According to the Telegraph:

"Lord Drayson hinted that an announcement could be imminent on purchasing an off-the-shelf Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle designed in America or South Africa." This is seen as an interim solution until FRES arrives in 2012.

Drayson also went on to say:

"That the dire lack of transport helicopters and spare parts for Apache attack helicopters that is hindering the campaign in Helmand might soon be resolved. "We are looking at our helicopter needs" and a decision had been taken "not to deny people what they need”, he said.

The Labour party are clearly on drugs, the poor old conservatives don't know what's hit them, they are the ones who are supposed to spend the money, not the traditional lefties!!

[harryriedl]

According to the Telegraph:

"Lord Drayson hinted that an announcement could be imminent on purchasing an off-the-shelf Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle designed in America or South Africa." This is seen as an interim solution until FRES arrives in 2012.

Drayson also went on to say:

"That the dire lack of transport helicopters and spare parts for Apache attack helicopters that is hindering the campaign in Helmand might soon be resolved. "We are looking at our helicopter needs" and a decision had been taken "not to deny people what they need”, he said.

The Labour party are clearly on drugs, the poor old conservatives don't know what's hit them, they are the ones who are supposed to spend the money, not the traditional lefties!!

have pity on Cameron's hug a hoodie party;) they seem to be out gunned on everything especially in defense i wonder if more merlins will be ordered or more CH-47 as both seem to be very good in hot and high conditions.

what is it with Labor these days with all this free spending [not that im complying it just seems very unlabor like]

[Waylander]

Fingers crossed for the Boxer.

Not just because I think it is a good option IF you put your main emphasis on protection but because for the fun of the Brits taking a vehicle after leaving the program some time ago. :D

[swerve]

LAV V will win, Boxer would cause too much loss-of-face and I'm NOT sure the ability to replace bodies adds anything apart from weight.

VBCI is the "poor cousin" in all of this and I hardly see the UK Government's main Allies (who virtually all use LAV's of one type or another) being too happy about the UK operating "orphan" armoured vehicles.

It also looks significantly smaller than the others?

http://www.nexter-group.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=79
http://www.artec-boxer.com/
http://www.gdls.com/programs/piranha.html/specs.html

It's between the Piranha IV & Boxer in length, height & weight, same width as a Boxer, wider than a Piranha IV.

[Musashi_kenshin]

what is it with Labor these days with all this free spending [not that im complying it just seems very unlabor like]

They're not spending that much on defence. I think it's more the case of some clever expectation manipulation. Drops lots of rumours about cuts and then when you make a small increase people get excited.

Defence spending as a proportion of GDP is falling, as it's going up slower than the economy is growing.