Australian Army to increase by 2,600

[Whiskyjack]

I see the below story:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Army-to-get-extra-2600-soldiers/2006/08/24/1156012642165.html

An extra two Battalions, 1 Mech and 1 Light.

The Mech to be based in Adelaide, which begs the question will 3 RAR be re-rolled from para now?

The Mech Battalion is to be operational by 2010.

[The_Jet]

From what I heard the 3RAR is moving from Sydney to Townsville

[robsta83]

Oh Sorry jet edited my mistake youre right, they are moving them to Townsville as Light Infantry, what a waste you might as well keep a capability such as para, specially when you are moving to the larger size and if you have a army of twos the paras are the closest to being the 4th RAR's double.

[Whiskyjack]

From what I heard the 3RAR is moving from Sydney to Townsville

They were to be re rolled to a Mech battalion as well, I just wonder whether that will go ahead now.

[robsta83]

If they are splitting the 5/7th then it makes sense the second mech batt will come from there. I would assume they will leave the 3rd Para, or the new Brisbane batt could be the new para unit, based near RAAF Amberly with the new C17's which well could lift all the personnel well in one lift just about. Or they leave the 3rd para where is and the new inf batt in qld becomes light infantry as is most likely. Perhaps this will end the Intergrated Regular/Reserve ness of the 7th Brigade, As they would then have the 6th, plus I suppose they could separate the 25/49th and reactivate the 25th to regular the 2/14th is now completely regular.

7th Brigade = 25th RAR
6th RAR
2/14th LHR
1st Field Regiment R/R

2 Combat Engineer Regiment
7 Combat Support Regiment
7 Combat Service Support Battalion
I think these are regular reserve mixed but they could that way


Rather well rounded force plus the ability to draw on the 9th RQR, 49 RQR.

Good news all round, I imagine the first step would be to encourage the Reservists to go full time a couple of well placed incentives would not go amiss.

This news along with the cancellation of deferment Land Project 17 is fantastic. Back to a 2008, Acquisition of SP Artillery, 50 odd Air transportable 155s and a gpm capability to introduced with it.
:D I hope some more Bushmasters will be purchased for the 7th however cause its leaves the 7th rather light.

[Whiskyjack]

If they are splitting the 5/7th then it makes sense the second mech batt will come from there. I would assume they will leave the 3rd Para, or the new Brisbane batt could be the new para unit, based near RAAF Amberly with the new C17's which well could lift all the personnel well in one lift just about. Or they leave the 3rd para where is and the new inf batt in qld becomes light infantry as is most likely. Perhaps this will end the Intergrated Regular/Reserve ness of the 7th Brigade, As they would then have the 6th, plus I suppose they could separate the 25/49th and reactivate the 25th to regular the 2/14th is now completely regular.

7th Brigade = 25th RAR
6th RAR
2/14th LHR
1st Field Regiment R/R

2 Combat Engineer Regiment
7 Combat Support Regiment
7 Combat Service Support Battalion
I think these are regular reserve mixed but they could that way


Rather well rounded force plus the ability to draw on the 9th RQR, 49 RQR.

Good news all round, I imagine the first step would be to encourage the Reservists to go full time a couple of well placed incentives would not go amiss.

This news along with the cancellation of deferment Land Project 17 is fantastic. Back to a 2008, Acquisition of SP Artillery, 50 odd Air transportable 155s and a gpm capability to introduced with it.
:D I hope some more Bushmasters will be purchased for the 7th however cause its leaves the 7th rather light.

I am not an expert on the Australian Army, this news would give the Army the following Orbat:

2 Mech Battalions
4 Light Battalions
1 Para Battalion(?)
1 Commando Battalion
1 Tank Regiment
2 Cav Regiments
1 Armed Helo Regiment
1 transport helo Regiment

Happy to be corrected on this.

[robsta83]

Well it looks like they will establish the 8/9th RAR, I wonder what will happen to the 9th RQR, will they deactivate it or change its name.

Nope they are getting rid of the paras, the plan is movement of the 3rd to Townsville, I don't like it, however with the intro of the big deck amphibs I guess its another amphib capable unit (higher trained)

So its:
5 Lights
2 Mechs
1 Commando
1 SASR
1 Armoured Reg
2 Calvary Reg
1 Armed Helo
1 Transport Helo Reg

[Whiskyjack]

Well it looks like they will establish the 8/9th RAR, I wonder what will happen to the 9th RQR, will they deactivate it or change its name.

Sorry, where is the plan? :)

[robsta83]

Defence Home Page

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2006/aug/20060824/regular_infantry_battalions.htm

and the direct release which is similar to the article you gave:

http://www.pm.gov.au/news/media_Releases/media_Release2091.html

[Whiskyjack]

Defence Home Page

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2006/aug/20060824/regular_infantry_battalions.htm

and the direct release which is similar to the article you gave:

http://www.pm.gov.au/news/media_Releases/media_Release2091.html

Thanks, should have looked there myself!:rolleyes:

[Aussie Digger]

3RAR is losing the Para role. Whilst it "seems" like a great idea, with in excess of 100 "major" injuries a year it is a waste, IMHO.

I know ex-3RAR blokes won't like it, but look at it this way, we've NEVER used our parachute capability (even that inherent within our special forces) and even at their best 3RAR has never provided more than a single "ready company group" capable of conducting parachute operations.

On top of this our Air Force doesn't have the airlift capacity to support to a battalion group strength parachute based insertion anyway...

My only complaint with this plan is the lack of details from Army. Surely they were consulted on this plan before the PM announced it? If not, why the blank look and no comment from Lt. Gen HURLEY when this announcement was made?

Is 7th Brigade to be equipped with 4x infantry battalions, or will the 6th Brigade be raised again? If the 6th brigade is re-raised (with either reserve or regular battalions) what units are to be raised to support this new brigade (ie: combat support and combat engineering?)

Why are there so many light infantry battalions but so few helicopters or Bushmaster IMV's? Are 6RAR and 8/9RAR simply to be used to provide "rotational" forces and no independant capability beyond basic foot-slogging within this wide brown land of ours??? Will Project "Overlander" be increased to provide a sort of "half and half" capability?

Are there to be any additional artillery units to support the new battalions??? If so, what are they to be equipped with and will Land 17 be expanded to support the additional 2x batteries that will be needed as a minimum with new generation weapons?

I like this idea, particularly the funding (an extra $10b just for this plan) but there are MANY additional details I would like to see...

[robsta83]

3RAR is losing the Para role. Whilst it "seems" like a great idea, with in excess of 100 "major" injuries a year it is a waste, IMHO.


:roll2 Yeah, that does make it pretty costly


On top of this our Air Force doesn't have the airlift capacity to support to a battalion group strength parachute based insertion anyway...[/QUOTE]

Really 3 C17's 8 C130s for example isn't enough?


My only complaint with this plan is the lack of details from Army. Surely they were consulted on this plan before the PM announced it? If not, why the blank look and no comment from Lt. Gen HURLEY when this announcement was made?

Maybe he just found out that morning :laugh


Is 7th Brigade to be equipped with 4x infantry battalions, or will the 6th Brigade be raised again? If the 6th brigade is re-raised (with either reserve or regular battalions) what units are to be raised to support this new brigade (ie: combat support and combat engineering?)

Well I think they'll keep the 7th as is, any major deployment of the 7th would esentially require deployment of the JFHQ which is apparently division capable so....


Why are there so many light infantry battalions but so few helicopters or Bushmaster IMV's? Are 6RAR and 8/9RAR simply to be used to provide "rotational" forces and no independant capability beyond basic foot-slogging within this wide brown land of ours??? Will Project "Overlander" be increased to provide a sort of "half and half" capability?

Exactly my concern, great for sending to the Pacific Islands, but for home defense? Its great the 2/14 is now a full time unit, but it is the only credible transport for the entire Brigade, if it was to be used that way which it isn't really meant to be. Keep the Bushmaster line open in my opinion, another 300 and provide a motorised capability as needed. for the 3rd or 7th Brigade.


Are there to be any additional artillery units to support the new battalions??? If so, what are they to be equipped with and will Land 17 be expanded to support the additional 2x batteries that will be needed as a minimum with new generation weapons?


Aparently not yet although it could be argued the SP arty is additional, so you could move the regular tubes to make the difference. Though that is just speculation by me.


Yeah the 2 infantry Battalions are great but as you say the required support will be the interesting bit mainly for the 2nd battallion, care to predict inservice date, I'm guessing 2013-14. Does anyone believe/heard if they are talking about de intergrating the 7th Brigade, though its seems unlikely with the boost of the High Readiness reserve although..

[Ozymandias]

So our (full time) brigades will consist of:

1st Brigade
1st Armored
2nd Cavalry
5 RAR
7 RAR
8/12 Medium
1st CER
1st CS
1st CSS

3rd Brigade
1 RAR
2 RAR
3 RAR
B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry
4 Field
3rd CER
3rd CS
3rd CSS

7th Brigade
6 RAR
8/9 RAR
25/49 RQR
2/14 Light Horse
1 Field
2nd CER
2nd CS
2nd CSS

is that about the size of things?

[Whiskyjack]

So our (full time) brigades will consist of:

1st Brigade
1st Armored
2nd Cavalry
5 RAR
7 RAR
8/12 Medium
1st CER
1st CS
1st CSS

3rd Brigade
1 RAR
2 RAR
3 RAR
B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry
4 Field
3rd CER
3rd CS
3rd CSS

7th Brigade
6 RAR
8/9 RAR
25/49 RQR
2/14 Light Horse
1 Field
2nd CER
2nd CS
2nd CSS

is that about the size of things?

So of these units the 25/49 RQR is reserve and the rest are regular?

[Aussie Digger]

So our (full time) brigades will consist of:

1st Brigade
1st Armored
2nd Cavalry
5 RAR
7 RAR
8/12 Medium
1st CER
1st CS
1st CSS

3rd Brigade
1 RAR
2 RAR
3 RAR
B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry
4 Field
3rd CER
3rd CS
3rd CSS

7th Brigade
6 RAR
8/9 RAR
25/49 RQR
2/14 Light Horse
1 Field
2nd CER
2nd CS
2nd CSS

is that about the size of things?

7th Brigade also includes 9RQR, 20th STA Regiment, 1 JSU, Deployable JFHQ, 1 Topo Regt, a field Hospital (whose number escapes me).

1 Brigade also has 1 Aviation Regt (though it is currently under 16 AAvn Brigade it will apparently be moved under the OOB of 1 Brigade much in the way 3RAR used to float "between" 1 Brigade and 3 Brigade depending on who was commanding Army at the time)... 1 Brigade also as 7 Sig Regt (EW).

3 Brigade will also have 5 Avn Regt in the same way 1 Brigade has 1 Avn Regt (as will 16 AAvn Brigade)...

And some people are confused by all this. Sheesh... :confused:

Whiskey, 25/49RQR is currently the main integrated reg/reserve battalion of 7th Brigade. 6RAR also has some reserve elements, but 9RQR is all reserve. 8/9RQR will be formed from the regular component of 25/49RQR, which will then return to an entirely reserve formation (apart from the regular Cadre staff, which all "chocco" units have).

This is why I suggested that 6 Brigade may be re-raised as 7th Brigade is a rather large formation without it wouldn't you say??? One of the Brigades either 6 or 7 would then become an entirely reserve brigade, just like the way things were in the mid 90's just before 8/9RAR was sh*tcanned in the first place.

Ah how times change eh? The DJFHQ and the reg battalions, 2/14LHR etc would go to the new Brigade and 9RQR, 25/49RQR would form the other Brigade.

As to the artillery issue, the new guns are replacements not additions. Army wants to move to an ALL 155mm artillery force, unfortunately it does not have enough guns in-service or on order to do this (there are 11x batteries in the current OOB, if this plan goes ahead it will increase to 13x "line unit" Batteries).

This would mean that we would need 78x 155mm guns just for the line batteries, another 6-12 guns for the School of Artillery (as 53 independant battery which supports the school, needs guns as does the school itself) plus the usual warstock/attrition pieces that are bought in such programs.

As such I can easily up to 100 guns being needed. the current 36x M198's will have to be retained but this means that up to 64x new guns will be required to be purchased. Can anyone see this happening? Land 17 certainly isn't funded to buy that many new guns, unless they intend to buy additional "2nd hand" M198's for reserve units, 3 Brigade and 7 Brigade (as only 1 Brigade will get SPG's likely).

Hence my earlier comment about "details"...

IN relation to the para issue, it's not just fitting digs into the back of planes that matters. Airforce COULD fit ALL of 3RAR into Hercules and obviously the 4x C-17's when they come online. But 3RAR needs "A" Battery to support it (A Bty is also para qualified at present) CSSB units to provide support as well as signals and other support units. THEN they need to be "re-supped" as such, the entire fleet if that would be required to support such an operation, particularly if it were any sort of distance from Australia and ot a "Timor"type scenario.

This is fine, so long as the REST of ADF, including special forces, 5 Avn Regt, 16 AD Regt etc don't happen to need any airlift at that time for this operation...

Can you start to see why 3RAR only maintained a "Coy" level parachute group?

[Whiskyjack]

Okay, let me get this straight, I am a little slow here sorry :)

What we are looking at here in 2016 is essentially three brigades consisting of:

1 Mech Brigade:

2x mech
1 x armrd
1x Cav


1 Light brigade with:

3 x Light Bat


1 light with:

2 x light
1 x Cav


each with Engineers, Arty, logs etc

Added to this there are Aviation Regiments as well?

I am completely lost on the reserves as well...they integrate into the existing regular or they have reserve brigades?

[Ozymandias]

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9059/ADF.html

bear in mind it was last updated in 2004. Among other things, 2/14 light horse is a regular formation.

[Aussie Digger]

Okay, let me get this straight, I am a little slow here sorry :)

What we are looking at here in 2016 is essentially three brigades consisting of:

1 Mech Brigade:

2x mech
1 x armrd
1x Cav
1 Light brigade with:

3 x Light Bat
1 light with:

2 x light
1 x Cav
each with Engineers, Arty, logs etc

Added to this there are Aviation Regiments as well?

I am completely lost on the reserves as well...they integrate into the existing regular or they have reserve brigades?

That basic formation appears to be correct. Each Brigade obviously has it's own signals, combat engineer, combat support battalions and artillery as well.

6RAR and 8/9RAR might become motorised/light infantry if sufficient funding is available for additional Bushmasters. This is one of the "details" we are all still awaiting.

There are dedicated reserve briagdes as well. Each are a little different due to funding constraints etc but include: 4th Brigade, 5th Brigade, 8th Brigade, 9th Brigade and 13th Brigade. Plus 16th Aviation Brigade. Most of these Brigades have: 2x light infantry battalions, an Artillery Regiment or 2x "independant" artillery Batteries, a Light Horse, Lancers or Mounted rifles unit (all providing "light Cavalry capability) plus support units.

7th Brigade is unique in Army as it permanently has integrated reserve/regular units. Most other brigades are either "all regular" or "all reserve" except that all reserve units have a "Cadre" or "core" of regular soldiers attached.

However only within 7 Brigade will you find ACTUAL units that have reserve and regular soldiers performing the same roles within the same sub-unit (25/49 RQR is the best example of this). This will change however under the new plan.

The Australian Army is divided into the following

LAND COMMAND:

- 1st Division (comprising 1,3,4 and 7th Brigades and DJFHQ).

- 2nd Division (comprising 5,8,9 and 13th Brigades).

- 16th Aviation Brigade (Brigade HQ, 1 Aviation Regiment, 5 Aviation Regiment and Army School of Aviation).

- Regional Force Surveillance Units (RFSU's - Pilbara Regiment, 51 Far North Queensland Regiment and "NORFORCE" - [North West Mobile Force])

- 16 Air Defence Regiment. (110 and 111 Batteries). 16 AAvn Bde and 16 AD Regt and RFSU's are "direct command" units for Land Command and are not commanded by 1 or 2 Divisions.

Special Operations COMMAND:

- Special Air Services Regiment.

- 4RAR Commando (Battalion).

- 1st Commando Regiment.

- Incident Response Regiment.

- Tactical Assault Group - West (manned by SASR).

- Tactical Assault Group - East (manned by SASR/4RAR).

- Special Operations Combat Support Squadron.

- 152 Signals Squadron (supports SASR).

- 126 Signals Squadron (supports 4RAR and 1 Cmdo Regt).

There is also Training COMMAND which operates the various Corps School (School of infantry, armour etc) plus 1 Recruit Training Battalion (Kapooka) and other training establishments.

There is also: 17th Combat Support Regiment which I understand was formerly known as "Support COMMAND". This unit provides major logistical support for all of Army and is another "direct command unit".

It's all a bit complicated I know. Hopefully I got all this right, (it's off the top of my head) I hate it when I forget things or they move...

[Whiskyjack]

That basic formation appears to be correct. Each Brigade obviously has it's own signals, combat engineer, combat support battalions and artillery as well.

6RAR and 8/9RAR might become motorised/light infantry if sufficient funding is available for additional Bushmasters. This is one of the "details" we are all still awaiting.

There are dedicated reserve briagdes as well. Each are a little different due to funding constraints etc but include: 4th Brigade, 5th Brigade, 8th Brigade, 9th Brigade and 13th Brigade. Plus 16th Aviation Brigade. Most of these Brigades have: 2x light infantry battalions, an Artillery Regiment or 2x "independant" artillery Batteries, a Light Horse, Lancers or Mounted rifles unit (all providing "light Cavalry capability) plus support units.

7th Brigade is unique in Army as it permanently has integrated reserve/regular units. Most other brigades are either "all regular" or "all reserve" except that all reserve units have a "Cadre" or "core" of regular soldiers attached.

However only within 7 Brigade will you find ACTUAL units that have reserve and regular soldiers performing the same roles within the same sub-unit (25/49 RQR is the best example of this). This will change however under the new plan.

The Australian Army is divided into the following

LAND COMMAND:


- 1st Division (comprising 1,3,4 and 7th Brigades and DJFHQ).

- 2nd Division (comprising 5,8,9 and 13th Brigades).

- 16th Aviation Brigade (Brigade HQ, 1 Aviation Regiment, 5 Aviation Regiment and Army School of Aviation).

- Regional Force Surveillance Units (RFSU's - Pilbara Regiment, 51 Far North Queensland Regiment and "NORFORCE" - [North West Mobile Force])

- 16 Air Defence Regiment. (110 and 111 Batteries). 16 AAvn Bde and 16 AD Regt and RFSU's are "direct command" units for Land Command and are not commanded by 1 or 2 Divisions.

Special Operations COMMAND:

- Special Air Services Regiment.

- 4RAR Commando (Battalion).

- 1st Commando Regiment.

- Incident Response Regiment.

- Tactical Assault Group - West (manned by SASR).

- Tactical Assault Group - East (manned by SASR/4RAR).

- Special Operations Combat Support Squadron.

- 152 Signals Squadron (supports SASR).

- 126 Signals Squadron (supports 4RAR and 1 Cmdo Regt).

There is also Training COMMAND which operates the various Corps School (School of infantry, armour etc) plus 1 Recruit Training Battalion (Kapooka) and other training establishments.

There is also: 17th Combat Support Regiment which I understand was formerly known as "Support COMMAND". This unit provides major logistical support for all of Army and is another "direct command unit".

It's all a bit complicated I know. Hopefully I got all this right, (it's off the top of my head) I hate it when I forget things or they move...





Thanks for that, it all becomes clearer. :)

I have been in Sydney for the last month on business, and compared to NZ I can really notice a difference in attitudes towards defence.

[old faithful]

3RAR is losing the Para role. Whilst it "seems" like a great idea, with in excess of 100 "major" injuries a year it is a waste, IMHO.

I know ex-3RAR blokes won't like it, but look at it this way, we've NEVER used our parachute capability (even that inherent within our special forces) and even at their best 3RAR has never provided more than a single "ready company group" capable of conducting parachute operations.

On top of this our Air Force doesn't have the airlift capacity to support to a battalion group strength parachute based insertion anyway...

My only complaint with this plan is the lack of details from Army. Surely they were consulted on this plan before the PM announced it? If not, why the blank look and no comment from Lt. Gen HURLEY when this announcement was made?

Is 7th Brigade to be equipped with 4x infantry battalions, or will the 6th Brigade be raised again? If the 6th brigade is re-raised (with either reserve or regular battalions) what units are to be raised to support this new brigade (ie: combat support and combat engineering?)

Why are there so many light infantry battalions but so few helicopters or Bushmaster IMV's? Are 6RAR and 8/9RAR simply to be used to provide "rotational" forces and no independant capability beyond basic foot-slogging within this wide brown land of ours??? Will Project "Overlander" be increased to provide a sort of "half and half" capability?

Are there to be any additional artillery units to support the new battalions??? If so, what are they to be equipped with and will Land 17 be expanded to support the additional 2x batteries that will be needed as a minimum with new generation weapons?

I like this idea, particularly the funding (an extra $10b just for this plan) but there are MANY additional details I would like to see...


You are right here about ex 3RAR blokes not liking it! And you are wrong about never using the capability too! A Coy 3RAR deployed by parachute during a politicly sensitive time in 1986. The group was deployed to the cocos island group (Keeling Isl) as a show of force to to Indonesia who claimed that if the wanted (souvrenty) there was nothing Australia could do about it. Having said this, the para capability would be better served by 3RAR becoming a sister to 4RAR in the Commando role. It would just be a case of retaining the suitable members of the Bn who are suitable(and willing) to meet spec war requirments,thus giving Aust a spec war brigade. Keep 1 and 2RAR as light bns. Split 5 and 7 as mech. Turn 6,8 and 9 to Marines. This would be a good mix for me. Spec war deployments have been frequent,and anoyher Commando Bn would allow a better rotation in the middle east,Afghan and Pacific,whilst retaining a solid CT pressence in Aust. # marine bns would allow a rotation at sea. And the mech brigade,light Inf brigade would allow deployments at short notice in our region and a heavy punch if required. What d,ya think mate?

[Whiskyjack]

You are right here about ex 3RAR blokes not liking it! And you are wrong about never using the capability too! A Coy 3RAR deployed by parachute during a politicly sensitive time in 1986. The group was deployed to the cocos island group (Keeling Isl) as a show of force to to Indonesia who claimed that if the wanted (souvrenty) there was nothing Australia could do about it. Having said this, the para capability would be better served by 3RAR becoming a sister to 4RAR in the Commando role. It would just be a case of retaining the suitable members of the Bn who are suitable(and willing) to meet spec war requirments,thus giving Aust a spec war brigade. Keep 1 and 2RAR as light bns. Split 5 and 7 as mech. Turn 6,8 and 9 to Marines. This would be a good mix for me. Spec war deployments have been frequent,and anoyher Commando Bn would allow a better rotation in the middle east,Afghan and Pacific,whilst retaining a solid CT pressence in Aust. # marine bns would allow a rotation at sea. And the mech brigade,light Inf brigade would allow deployments at short notice in our region and a heavy punch if required. What d,ya think mate?

I have a question. Where will the LHDs be based, will they both be based on the East Coast or will one be on the West Coast?

The reason I ask is that if they were split between the coasts would that not have an implication on where the light battalions were based? Would one or two not have to moved west.

[old faithful]

I am only guessing,but i feel that the LHd,s would be based on the east coast,with one active at any time. Deployments to the west coast would be regular,and frequent. Deploying troops from any of our Battalions to the ships is not a difficult exercise,in the 80,s both 6 and 8/9 regularly trainded for deployments on Toobruk and the old Jervis Bay. If i remember correctly,6RAR deployed to California to train alongside the U.S marines aboard Toobruk. Also.AD mentioned that the RAAF would be streatched to supply a Bn para group,i dont agree. We have done Bn group deployments by air many times.With 36 sqn having 12xC130H and 37 Sqn operateing 12xC130J-30,s we have more than enough to deploy,and re-sup a Bn Airboune grp,incudeing Aty,Engineers etc.Remember that one of 3RAR,s main roles is to secure a point of entry for a larger force.I think,although in recent conflicts,that that capability has not been required,we should maintain it.

[Whiskyjack]

I am only guessing,but i feel that the LHd,s would be based on the east coast,with one active at any time. Deployments to the west coast would be regular,and frequent. Deploying troops from any of our Battalions to the ships is not a difficult exercise,in the 80,s both 6 and 8/9 regularly trainded for deployments on Toobruk and the old Jervis Bay. If i remember correctly,6RAR deployed to California to train alongside the U.S marines aboard Toobruk. Also.AD mentioned that the RAAF would be streatched to supply a Bn para group,i dont agree. We have done Bn group deployments by air many times.With 36 sqn having 12xC130H and 37 Sqn operateing 12xC130J-30,s we have more than enough to deploy,and re-sup a Bn Airboune grp,incudeing Aty,Engineers etc.Remember that one of 3RAR,s main roles is to secure a point of entry for a larger force.I think,although in recent conflicts,that that capability has not been required,we should maintain it.

With regard to Para capability, if you have 4 RAR Cmdo, plus 1 Cmdo Reserve, do you need 3 RAR? In my mind a battalion level para insertion is highly unlikely as it would mean a greater risk level, which would mean a greater potential casualty risk as well.

Would a more likely scenario be a cot from 4 RAR securing an airfield while follow-on forces from a light battalion were brought in.

If the situation was serious enough it would be escalated to an LHD and go in over the beach in conjunction with a cmdo element being used in the para role.

I do like the idea of a second full time cmdo battalion, just not sure how likely given funding and personnel restraints.

[old faithful]

I agree with what you are getting at...to a point. The SASR have a pressence in Afgahistan,Iraq,East Timor god knows where else...4RAR are in a similar situation. We still must preserve TAG east and West at home. Another reg Cmdo bn would allow spec war deployments,easing pressure on these units.Australias spec warfare efforts are more effective on multi national deployments than most units.They are held in high regard world wide,as are most of our efforts in military deployments.If we must deploy fighting units,then special forces we send will have a bigger impact to the end result than a lone inf battalian,simply because it has a force multipling effect for our allies. Thats why i feel another unit raised would be more benificial,so we can maintain a strong pressence at home,whilst other units are deployed off shore.;)

[Whiskyjack]

I agree with what you are getting at...to a point. The SASR have a pressence in Afgahistan,Iraq,East Timor god knows where else...4RAR are in a similar situation. We still must preserve TAG east and West at home. Another reg Cmdo bn would allow spec war deployments,easing pressure on these units.Australias spec warfare efforts are more effective on multi national deployments than most units.They are held in high regard world wide,as are most of our efforts in military deployments.If we must deploy fighting units,then special forces we send will have a bigger impact to the end result than a lone inf battalian,simply because it has a force multipling effect for our allies. Thats why i feel another unit raised would be more benificial,so we can maintain a strong pressence at home,whilst other units are deployed off shore.;)

Looking at it that way I have to agree.

Closer to home Cmdo forces would enter and secure, then high tail it back to base so they do not become tied down with foot slogging duties!

The issue being at what point does your force become unbalanced with not enough grunts. :)

[old faithful]

if we can maintain 1 and 2RAR as light inf in townsville,5 and 7RAR as mech units in Darwin and possibly SA,6,8 and 9RAR as INF bns or maybe just 6 and8/9rar,then the balance would be ok,provided that the reserves could fully man 12 bns of grunts.I think there are around 21 reserve inf units on paper,but the maning would be quite low.12 fully manned reserve infantry battalions would be good. 1,2,6 and 8/9 should all and probably will be trained for deployments on board the LHD,s and im sure that the MECH units will also train regularly with these ships.

[Whiskyjack]

if we can maintain 1 and 2RAR as light inf in townsville,5 and 7RAR as mech units in Darwin and possibly SA,6,8 and 9RAR as INF bns or maybe just 6 and8/9rar,then the balance would be ok,provided that the reserves could fully man 12 bns of grunts.I think there are around 21 reserve inf units on paper,but the maning would be quite low.12 fully manned reserve infantry battalions would be good. 1,2,6 and 8/9 should all and probably will be trained for deployments on board the LHD,s and im sure that the MECH units will also train regularly with these ships.

Completely agree. The one thing I would have to add is a 3rd cav regiment. It would allow for the light brigades to each have 1 Cav regiment each with the Mech brigade also having 1.

It also gives the light brigades 3 battalion/regiment level HQs to base deployments on.

[old faithful]

One point that i completely forgot is that Cav units used have one squdron(company)of assult troopers(vegeies).I dont know if they still maintain this,but that would definatly be a big plus to all the brigades.I know that 2CAV vegies used to do the Infantry recon course at the jungle training school at Tully in FNQld,and were good hands.

[Whiskyjack]

One point that i completely forgot is that Cav units used have one squdron(company)of assult troopers(vegeies).I dont know if they still maintain this,but that would definatly be a big plus to all the brigades.I know that 2CAV vegies used to do the Infantry recon course at the jungle training school at Tully in FNQld,and were good hands.


If I am not mistaken, the two regular Cav regiments are equipped with LAVs.

**Warning this is where I may begin to depart from reality** :D

I would have two LAV equipped Regiments with the light brigades and equip a third in the Mech brigade in a similar manner to a US Army Armoured Cav squadron (which I think is the same as a battalion/regiment in the Australian Army). This would make it a heavier formation and also allow for more M1s to factored into the structure. Once the M113s are replaced with something heavier it would make for a true 'heavy' brigade.

[old faithful]

depending on which vehicle is selected to replace the M113,s,a further LAV unit will not be necessary. If the new vehicle is along the lines of bradley or warrier,there will be no need for Lavs,but if they go for a motorised veh like bushmaster,then Lavs will be a must!

[Aussie Digger]

I am only guessing,but i feel that the LHd,s would be based on the east coast,with one active at any time. Deployments to the west coast would be regular,and frequent. Deploying troops from any of our Battalions to the ships is not a difficult exercise,in the 80,s both 6 and 8/9 regularly trainded for deployments on Toobruk and the old Jervis Bay. If i remember correctly,6RAR deployed to California to train alongside the U.S marines aboard Toobruk. Also.AD mentioned that the RAAF would be streatched to supply a Bn para group,i dont agree. We have done Bn group deployments by air many times.With 36 sqn having 12xC130H and 37 Sqn operateing 12xC130J-30,s we have more than enough to deploy,and re-sup a Bn Airboune grp,incudeing Aty,Engineers etc.Remember that one of 3RAR,s main roles is to secure a point of entry for a larger force.I think,although in recent conflicts,that that capability has not been required,we should maintain it.

I know 3RAR have done Btn level deployments on exercise but I think in any serious wartime scenario there'd be so many concurrent airlift tasks for RAAF that we wouldn't have the fleet available for a Btn strength para insertion. Certainly there was no spare airlift capacity for a Btn strength para insertion when Timor happened, if it had been required...

I think this reality has finally forced Government to direct Army to give up the Btn parachute capability. Our mech and light infantry forces are far more heavily used than the para capability has. Indeed 3RAR has had many operational deployments in the last 6 years (most recently to provide the latest SECDET in Iraq along with 2/14LHR) and the para capability hasn't been required, though it places enormous strain on 3RAR and RAAF to maintain it...

Yes 2 Cav and 2/14LHR maintain "recon scouts" or Veggies as they are known. They are organised into sections within the individual vehicle troops though rather than into an actual company formation...

In relation to the ASLAV units, I don't think another one is needed (remember Army is striving for an "Army of Two's" which is a BIG enhancement over what we had 5 years ago), though I do think 3 Brigade would be well served by adding an ASLAV based recon squadron to the Bushmaster IMV Squadron that will be maintained within B Sqn 3/4 Cav Regt. The name of this unit could then revert to 3/4 Cav Regiment (and they could then truly shrug off their hated nickname: "Three quarter Cav"). :D

As to the additional Commando Battalion idea. I think it worthwhile (though it'd be hideously expensive equipping and maintaining 2 of them). The only concern I have is the infantry base which special forces predominantly draw upon for their troops. It's arguably not big enough to support the special forces we already have (hence the need for the "special forces direct entry scheme"). I would at least want the additional infantry battalions to be fully up and running and the legacy battalions "filled out" prior to the additional Cmdo Battalion being created...

[Whiskyjack]

I know 3RAR have done Btn level deployments on exercise but I think in any serious wartime scenario there'd be so many concurrent airlift tasks for RAAF that we wouldn't have the fleet available for a Btn strength para insertion. Certainly there was no spare airlift capacity for a Btn strength para insertion when Timor happened, if it had been required...



Strictly speaking with the introduction of the C-17s, and the C-130Hs potentially being downsized and focused towards Spec Ops, the tactical airlift will be less than now IMO.

Given the C-17s strategic value (not to mention $$ value) I can't see it being used in a threat environment without an extremley good reason, and in the para role it does not carry that many more troops.

However with the introduction of the NH90, a potential order for more CH-47s and the LDHs the ability to carry out an inland assualt of 200km (give or take) from the LHDs does provide an extra element that the ADF doesn't really have at the moment.

That's just my opinion though :D

[old faithful]

I know 3RAR have done Btn level deployments on exercise but I think in any serious wartime scenario there'd be so many concurrent airlift tasks for RAAF that we wouldn't have the fleet available for a Btn strength para insertion. Certainly there was no spare airlift capacity for a Btn strength para insertion when Timor happened, if it had been required...

I think this reality has finally forced Government to direct Army to give up the Btn parachute capability. Our mech and light infantry forces are far more heavily used than the para capability has. Indeed 3RAR has had many operational deployments in the last 6 years (most recently to provide the latest SECDET in Iraq along with 2/14LHR) and the para capability hasn't been required, though it places enormous strain on 3RAR and RAAF to maintain it...

Yes 2 Cav and 2/14LHR maintain "recon scouts" or Veggies as they are known. They are organised into sections within the individual vehicle troops though rather than into an actual company formation...

In relation to the ASLAV units, I don't think another one is needed (remember Army is striving for an "Army of Two's" which is a BIG enhancement over what we had 5 years ago), though I do think 3 Brigade would be well served by adding an ASLAV based recon squadron to the Bushmaster IMV Squadron that will be maintained within B Sqn 3/4 Cav Regt. The name of this unit could then revert to 3/4 Cav Regiment (and they could then truly shrug off their hated nickname: "Three quarter Cav"). :D

As to the additional Commando Battalion idea. I think it worthwhile (though it'd be hideously expensive equipping and maintaining 2 of them). The only concern I have is the infantry base which special forces predominantly draw upon for their troops. It's arguably not big enough to support the special forces we already have (hence the need for the "special forces direct entry scheme"). I would at least want the additional infantry battalions to be fully up and running and the legacy battalions "filled out" prior to the additional Cmdo Battalion being created...

It takes 12 C130H to deploy a BN group by parachute, however,im not suggesting that 3RAR maintain the para role,I would like to see them progress to another Commando unit.With the expearience they have at short notice deployments that they have,and already well versed in the airbourne/assault shock infantry tactics,they would be in an ideal position to do so,allowing TAG east and west to be maintained whilst large parts of SASR and 4RAR are deployed to Afghanistan/iraq/ET etc. This would allow Australia to maintain a long term rotation of a considerable size. (C130H carrys 64 paras) 9 hercs for personel,and 3 for heavy drop. Bear in mind,i am working on POE situation. That leaves 12 C130J-30,s and chartered aircraft to follow up...

[Aussie Digger]

Strictly speaking with the introduction of the C-17s, and the C-130Hs potentially being downsized and focused towards Spec Ops, the tactical airlift will be less than now IMO.

Given the C-17s strategic value (not to mention $$ value) I can't see it being used in a threat environment without an extremley good reason, and in the para role it does not carry that many more troops.

However with the introduction of the NH90, a potential order for more CH-47s and the LDHs the ability to carry out an inland assualt of 200km (give or take) from the LHDs does provide an extra element that the ADF doesn't really have at the moment.

That's just my opinion though :D

Actually I can't speak from experience, but the RAF rates each of it's C-17's as worth 6x C-130J's in terms of payload and range. From that POV even if the C-130H fleet were entirely removed from service, our airlift capability is still being significantly enhanced.

A number of decisions remain to be made, but I think it's a deadset certainty that additional C-130J's or perhaps A400M's will be bought to replace the C-130H's (ADF is VERY disinterested in upgrades these days from all reports), meaning that our airlift will be greater than it ever has been.

The ADF would use the C-17 if necessary, but with 4RAR (Cmdo) to maintain only a "company" level Parachute insertion capability instead of 3RAR, I agree it's unlikely to be relevant, unless of course we need to do a company level parachute insertion at extended ranges from Australia...

You are quite correct that ADF possess only limited Amphib capabilities at present, though Manoora and Kanimbla can each carry 4x Blackhawks (and MRH-90's in due course) plus with the new watercraft, meaning we do have SOME capability...

[Whiskyjack]

Actually I can't speak from experience, but the RAF rates each of it's C-17's as worth 6x C-130J's in terms of payload and range. From that POV even if the C-130H fleet were entirely removed from service, our airlift capability is still being significantly enhanced.

A number of decisions remain to be made, but I think it's a deadset certainty that additional C-130J's or perhaps A400M's will be bought to replace the C-130H's (ADF is VERY disinterested in upgrades these days from all reports), meaning that our airlift will be greater than it ever has been.



Don't get me wrong as a strategic airlifter the C-17 gives the RAAF a great capability. What I was trying to say is that it can only lift a certain amount of troops at one time.

Unless the current C-130Js are retired early I can't see the A400 selected as it would give 3 types of airlifters.

[Aussie Digger]

Don't get me wrong as a strategic airlifter the C-17 gives the RAAF a great capability. What I was trying to say is that it can only lift a certain amount of troops at one time.

Unless the current C-130Js are retired early I can't see the A400 selected as it would give 3 types of airlifters.

Don't know if the ADF is overly concerned by that. They will in fact be operating 4 types airlifters for a considerable time anyway as you have overlooked the Caribou and whatever platform will replace that.

The C-130J's have nearly 10 years in RAAF service now and by the time the A400M's could be in-service they'd have nearly 20 years operational service. They might decide to "retire" the "J's" early and consolidate on an A400M / C-17 and "Caribou replacement" fleet.

Only time will tell I suppose but ADF has announced recently that it is still interested in A400M, though that could possibly be to stop LM rubbing it's hands with glee too early...

[Whiskyjack]

Don't know if the ADF is overly concerned by that. They will in fact be operating 4 types airlifters for a considerable time anyway as you have overlooked the Caribou and whatever platform will replace that.

The C-130J's have nearly 10 years in RAAF service now and by the time the A400M's could be in-service they'd have nearly 20 years operational service. They might decide to "retire" the "J's" early and consolidate on an A400M / C-17 and "Caribou replacement" fleet.

Only time will tell I suppose but ADF has announced recently that it is still interested in A400M, though that could possibly be to stop LM rubbing it's hands with glee too early...

Hell the way things are going, use the Js to replace the Caribou, and buy 12-16 A400Ms. Wishful thinking, but the army isn't going to get any lighter.

[robsta83]

Hell the way things are going, use the Js to replace the Caribou, and buy 12-16 A400Ms. Wishful thinking, but the army isn't going to get any lighter.

That'd be cool if they got another 12 Chinooks to cover the Tactical lift, just give them inflight refueling and they would be sweet, 18 Chinooks, 12 C130's, 12 A400ms and 4 C17s.

I would prefer a total of 4 C17s, 18 C130J's, and 14 Spartans and 12 Chinooks, its late and forget its designation. The commonality would be a bit better perhaps,

Perhaps if the extra 6 C130Js were the K version, that would be good as they still have some transport capability and would greatly boost refuelling ability of the airforce when couple with 5 A330's.

[Whiskyjack]

That'd be cool if they got another 12 Chinooks to cover the Tactical lift, just give them inflight refueling and they would be sweet, 18 Chinooks, 12 C130's, 12 A400ms and 4 C17s.

I would prefer a total of 4 C17s, 18 C130J's, and 14 Spartans and 12 Chinooks, its late and forget its designation. The commonality would be a bit better perhaps,

Perhaps if the extra 6 C130Js were the K version, that would be good as they still have some transport capability and would greatly boost refuelling ability of the airforce when couple with 5 A330's.

Actually, ignore $$ for a second, I would seriously look at the Osprey, combined with 4-6 tanker versions of the C-130. This would give the Army a tactical assault lift that the distances that Australia and the Pacific have. Could also be used off the LHDs, and of course Spec Ops.

However I would wait until the Osprey has completed its initial combat deployment to Iraq/Afghanistan next year, and see what, is anything, comes out of operational experience.

$$ would be the main issue, I believe that you would not get much change, if any, out of US$100m for an Osprey. Hell I wish NZ had 8-10 of them, if the they prove themselves in operations.

[Aussie Digger]

Actually, ignore $$ for a second, I would seriously look at the Osprey, combined with 4-6 tanker versions of the C-130. This would give the Army a tactical assault lift that the distances that Australia and the Pacific have. Could also be used off the LHDs, and of course Spec Ops.

However I would wait until the Osprey has completed its initial combat deployment to Iraq/Afghanistan next year, and see what, is anything, comes out of operational experience.

$$ would be the main issue, I believe that you would not get much change, if any, out of US$100m for an Osprey. Hell I wish NZ had 8-10 of them, if the they prove themselves in operations.

I'd rather have Chinooks and C-130J's than Osprey's I think. Osprey's look like a nice idea but their range and performance is nothing special, compared to a C-130J and their lift capacity is nothing special compared to a CH-47D, let alone CH-47F OR a C-130J for that matter...

A few (6x) KC-130J-30 tankers, the existing 46x MRH-90's and 12-18 CH-47D/F's and 12-14 C-27J Spartans all fitted with permanent external A2A refuelling probes would suit ADF better, IMHO...

[Whiskyjack]

I'd rather have Chinooks and C-130J's than Osprey's I think. Osprey's look like a nice idea but their range and performance is nothing special, compared to a C-130J and their lift capacity is nothing special compared to a CH-47D, let alone CH-47F OR a C-130J for that matter...

A few (6x) KC-130J-30 tankers, the existing 46x MRH-90's and 12-18 CH-47D/F's and 12-14 C-27J Spartans all fitted with permanent external A2A refuelling probes would suit ADF better, IMHO...

Yes I think you are probably right, looking at the comparitve performance.

Also as I mentioned above the Osprey really need to be tested before Australia even considered looking at it. To much risk otherwise.

[Aussie Digger]

Yes I think you are probably right, looking at the comparitve performance.

Also as I mentioned above the Osprey really need to be tested before Australia even considered looking at it. To much risk otherwise.

Yes, Osprey would seem to be "nice" to have in my opinion, but not good enough to cover all the roles that the RAAF/Army need to cover. The US is not in the same position thanks to it's preponderance of available assets (ie: over 500 Hercules, 180 C-17's, 140 new C-27 "equivalent" etc).

Australia whilst better off than many Countries in terms of defence funding, still can't afford everything that might be useful and has to make do with what it can afford in many areas... For what the Osprey can offer, I don't think it's in ADF's best interest to acquire it...

[Whiskyjack]

Yes, Osprey would seem to be "nice" to have in my opinion, but not good enough to cover all the roles that the RAAF/Army need to cover. The US is not in the same position thanks to it's preponderance of available assets (ie: over 500 Hercules, 180 C-17's, 140 new C-27 "equivalent" etc).

Australia whilst better off than many Countries in terms of defence funding, still can't afford everything that might be useful and has to make do with what it can afford in many areas... For what the Osprey can offer, I don't think it's in ADF's best interest to acquire it...

I agree, although I will add one qualifier;

If over the next decade the ADF find itself operating in a more Spec Ops type deployments. Something like the Osprey may be the looked at as offering the performance characteristics that the ADF may require to perform such missions, I also include the UK here as well. Just a thought and not for consideration in the near future.

Cheers

[Todjaeger]

Is raising the Regular Army by 2,600 expected to have an impacted on the Reserve forces? Also, is there a good reference on Australian Reserves? I've been able to find some listings for reserve battalions which also mentions if a unit is cav, infantry, etc. Nothing I've found indicates total number of reservists, or the approximate numbers & equipment found in the different units. And as I've read, the numbers/size of American units which I'm used to is somewhat different...

[Aussie Digger]

Is raising the Regular Army by 2,600 expected to have an impacted on the Reserve forces? Also, is there a good reference on Australian Reserves? I've been able to find some listings for reserve battalions which also mentions if a unit is cav, infantry, etc. Nothing I've found indicates total number of reservists, or the approximate numbers & equipment found in the different units. And as I've read, the numbers/size of American units which I'm used to is somewhat different...

Virtually every unit of the Australian Army is different though they share a basic "on paper" structure.

The "raising of the Army" is specifically referring to the regular army and will not directly impact on reserves, other than some equipment currently in use by regular units may be "cascaded down" as newer equipment is bought to expand the regular army (which for operational and economical reasons obviously gets the "pick" of the kit).

Most units in the Australian Army that actually have a website can be found here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/structure/units.htm

Details can be gleaned on unit structure, equipment, training activities etc.

The Australian reserve is completely different as I understand it from American reserve/National Guard units. For one thing, the training budgets are hideously low, the "readiness levels" are atrocious (no Australian reserve unit is considered available for operational deployment in less than 12 months) and they use quite different equipment, vehicles etc to the regular army, because of the cost of equipping all the units.

The reserve is designed to provide an expansion base for a war of national survival. As such it does not have a high priority with Army and Government.

As an example of this, even the low level of capability provided by the current reserve armoured units with their M113A1 APC's is being stripped from them and the vehicles are being replaced by 4x4 land rovers. This is officially because the M113A1 is obsolete. Never mind that a Land Rover 4x4 is FAR LESS capable than an M113, just mind the cost of acquiring a decent and capable new vehicle...

[icelord]

Virtually every unit of the Australian Army is different though they share a basic "on paper" structure.

The "raising of the Army" is specifically referring to the regular army and will not directly impact on reserves, other than some equipment currently in use by regular units may be "cascaded down" as newer equipment is bought to expand the regular army (which for operational and economical reasons obviously gets the "pick" of the kit).

Most units in the Australian Army that actually have a website can be found here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/structure/units.htm

Details can be gleaned on unit structure, equipment, training activities etc.

The Australian reserve is completely different as I understand it from American reserve/National Guard units. For one thing, the training budgets are hideously low, the "readiness levels" are atrocious (no Australian reserve unit is considered available for operational deployment in less than 12 months) and they use quite different equipment, vehicles etc to the regular army, because of the cost of equipping all the units.

The reserve is designed to provide an expansion base for a war of national survival. As such it does not have a high priority with Army and Government.

As an example of this, even the low level of capability provided by the current reserve armoured units with their M113A1 APC's is being stripped from them and the vehicles are being replaced by 4x4 land rovers. This is officially because the M113A1 is obsolete. Never mind that a Land Rover 4x4 is FAR LESS capable than an M113, just mind the cost of acquiring a decent and capable new vehicle...

Its true that the reserves get the rough end of the stick, but they do deploy on the odd occasion, Timor being one. The 3RAR commando company is i understand a listed reserve force, and not part of the Regular army, or perhaps its just a company thats reserve. A much bigger role does need to be looked at for Reserves, especially in this region, need i point to the grand history of the militia in papua?
A short while ago the Govt. announced a major budget boost for the reserves, so this may be the start of a better push for them, to increase their forces and improve equipment. But lets face it, most 'chokkos' don't see deployment as a possiblility when signing up, hell, i laughed when the question came to "would i be prepared to shoot someone", as this seems amusing when most reservists have little possiblity of seeing an enemy let alone shooting, unless in commandos.

The Aussie reserves are nothing like the US reserves or National guard, and are not a supplement to the regulars like above. They do provide padres, doctors and other specialists in times of need, such as aceh after Tsunami,plus pakistan and as a way of getting skilled people to operate once or twice a week for military people.

[Todjaeger]

The Australian reserve is completely different as I understand it from American reserve/National Guard units. For one thing, the training budgets are hideously low, the "readiness levels" are atrocious (no Australian reserve unit is considered available for operational deployment in less than 12 months) and they use quite different equipment, vehicles etc to the regular army, because of the cost of equipping all the units.

The reserve is designed to provide an expansion base for a war of national survival. As such it does not have a high priority with Army and Government.


Would it be safe to say then that the condition of the Reserves now, is similar to what the CMF was like at the start of WWII? Excepting special units like the 1st Cdo Regiment, of course. As for the readiness of US Reserve/Guard units, we've started to find that the pace of US operations is taxing what we have available with some units (40% if I remember correctly) being considered unready without significant time given.

[icelord]

Would it be safe to say then that the condition of the Reserves now, is similar to what the CMF was like at the start of WWII? Excepting special units like the 1st Cdo Regiment, of course. As for the readiness of US Reserve/Guard units, we've started to find that the pace of US operations is taxing what we have available with some units (40% if I remember correctly) being considered unready without significant time given.

Perhaps a big error in planning was changing Kapooka. until june the reserve and regulars were in the same platoons, for 45 days and everyone worked together to get through it,and after march out, chokkos go home to their regiments, and regs would move to Alpha company for the new Advanced Training module, about 45 days i think. nows its only 28 days for reserves, and they go home to finish the rest of training, without a march out i believe, while regs continue their 45, march out then go to Alpha. it pretty much cuts the training up and limits standard training across the regs and reserves. The pre-june system worked, their was no distinction between the 2 types of entry, and it just seems a little bit stupid. Someone in HQ most likely went number crunching and worked out this...brilliant scheme.

[Aussie Digger]

Its true that the reserves get the rough end of the stick, but they do deploy on the odd occasion, Timor being one. The 3RAR commando company is i understand a listed reserve force, and not part of the Regular army, or perhaps its just a company thats reserve. A much bigger role does need to be looked at for Reserves, especially in this region, need i point to the grand history of the militia in papua?
A short while ago the Govt. announced a major budget boost for the reserves, so this may be the start of a better push for them, to increase their forces and improve equipment. But lets face it, most 'chokkos' don't see deployment as a possiblility when signing up, hell, i laughed when the question came to "would i be prepared to shoot someone", as this seems amusing when most reservists have little possiblity of seeing an enemy let alone shooting, unless in commandos.

The Aussie reserves are nothing like the US reserves or National guard, and are not a supplement to the regulars like above. They do provide padres, doctors and other specialists in times of need, such as aceh after Tsunami,plus pakistan and as a way of getting skilled people to operate once or twice a week for military people.

A very odd occasion, in fact the very first deployment of an entire reserve sub-unit since WW2. 9RQR's deployment to the Soloman Islands last year was the other sub-unit reserve deployment that has occurred since WW2...

OTOH small numbers of "specialist" reserve personnel (Doctors, Nurses etc) have deployed on operations and will continue to do so.

Reserve units however are unlikely to deploy very often and when they do it will be long after the regular units deploy and only to low level operations. No reserve unit (even 1 Cmdo Regt) is able to deploy to a high intensity combat operation and it's arguable how many of our regular formations are either, but that's another gripe...

[icelord]

something new, Their was a big discussion not long ago about a bigger role for reserves, this will be an anti-terror Scenario, where Res. would be deployed in event of major attack, whether this be similar to 9/11 when National Guard was deployed to area around WTC, or perhaps locking down a city and aiding the police in searching for suspects. Hmm, would this last one be possible?

I know the Combat Engineer course contains a NBC module, so they would be perhaps used to contain any WMD attack. Infantry deploy for security, while other corps. also move in to support.

[Aussie Digger]

something new, Their was a big discussion not long ago about a bigger role for reserves, this will be an anti-terror Scenario, where Res. would be deployed in event of major attack, whether this be similar to 9/11 when National Guard was deployed to area around WTC, or perhaps locking down a city and aiding the police in searching for suspects. Hmm, would this last one be possible?

I know the Combat Engineer course contains a NBC module, so they would be perhaps used to contain any WMD attack. Infantry deploy for security, while other corps. also move in to support.

I think if such a situation occurred it would be an absolute cluster. I am a police officer in Australia and never have we exercised with Army. Our Comms are completely different and Army is neither trained nor well equipped for the type of operation you are forseeing.

I think the Army's main role in such a "support to the civilian authority" scenario would be logistical and mobility, as well as "bodies" for large scale search scenario's and possibly VCP's with police present to actually question people, given most soldiers complete lack of training and knowledge of legislation, case law and Court processes etc in relation to interviewing persons.

Given that Army has raised 7 "high readiness" companies within reserve brigades for these sort of operations, I doubt very much that even ALL of these deployed concurrently would be sufficient to "lock down" a major city such as Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne. It would take the deployment of several brigades to achieve, in my opinion and Army is not equipped for that...

[old faithful]

implementation of a "martial law" situation in one of Australias major cities would be next to impossible.Soldiers are soldiers,and without police supervision,policeing would become out of hand.I dont think Military police would handle the situation even if they had numbers.Maybe attaching a cop to a rifle section could work,but i know as a section comder,if a situation arose,i would feel responsible for my section and over rule the cop if i thought nessasary.The end result would indeed be a cluster!

[icelord]

Hmm, it would be difficult to comprehend, but East Timor is an example of RAR being able to move into a chaotic situation and setting up road blocks, searching people and providing high protection escorts, extra armoured response to situations when required. For sydney, it would be difficult, but for a few suburbs, maybe not so. The response time would be slow though. Say someone set off bombs across the city, chaos would follow. would it not be safe to have highly trained, and level headed soldiers provide support and order. This is why i mentioned the role of CER, most state police have a few SPG and bomb squad, and Reg. CER are not in most cities, but reserve Squadrons are. Having NBC, along with bomb disposal could be useful, as well as door knocking infantry with CQC training, they would not be stupid enough to shoot first, ask questions later, and state law in this scenario might need to taught to Reserves if to go ahead, and as Aussie Digger pointed out, some training with State police. Maybe doctrine needs to train this, advanced riot control or road block security. highly controversial and dangerous i know, but after our state police command ability to control 3 riots went up a creek without a canoe or paddle, i don't exactly feel warm in having them calling the shots post attack, this doesn't reflect on the high quality officers we have, just the chaotic command.

[chargerRT]

Perhaps a big error in planning was changing Kapooka. until june the reserve and regulars were in the same platoons, for 45 days and everyone worked together to get through it,and after march out, chokkos go home to their regiments, and regs would move to Alpha company for the new Advanced Training module, about 45 days i think. nows its only 28 days for reserves, and they go home to finish the rest of training, without a march out i believe, while regs continue their 45, march out then go to Alpha. it pretty much cuts the training up and limits standard training across the regs and reserves. The pre-june system worked, their was no distinction between the 2 types of entry, and it just seems a little bit stupid. Someone in HQ most likely went number crunching and worked out this...brilliant scheme.

When i did my reserve's basic training(4/19 PWLH),it was only 2 weeks at pucca:shudder .that was in 1990.we did have a marching out parade tho...

[MG 3]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

Mod edit: I think the others have addressed this adequately. Watch the Jingoism mate. In Australian and South Pacific terms, this is a large increase in capability. Comparing it to your own Country is juvenile and shows a distinct lack of insight into the strategic environment Australia faces as compared to that of Pakistan. Feel free to continue to contribute, but put a bit more thought into it. Cheers. AD.

[Waylander]

Woohooo.
That's something that definetly had to be said. :rolleyes:

[Todjaeger]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

Keep in mind the current size of the ADF is only around 53,000 personnel. This is spread across the RAN, RAAF and Army. 2,600 additional soldiers for Army is something like a 10% increase in the size of the Regular Army. For Australia, it is a fairly significant increase.

[icelord]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

And your talking about the Best trained Regular Army in the world, You say 2500, thats 2500 more smart, efficent and level headed men ready to deploy anywhere anytime. Remember, it quality not quantity:D
We'd love 10,000 more, but we get 8,000 new recruits a year if its possible, and thats across the service and ranks, officer or general Entry, we're kinda pushing 2,500 as it is.

[Cootamundra]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

How old are you?

Very revealing comment. I could say that you add 10,000 cause you need the numbers to make up for a lack of quality, but then I won't because that's not what we do here at DT...Think before you type.:lam

[chargerRT]

an old saying, "its not the size of the dog in the fight,its how much fight's in the dog".
:soldier

[old faithful]

Just wondering....whats the population of Pakistan? Australia is approx 20 million.Interesting though, when I joined the Australian Army in 1985, the strength of the Army was 32000, with only six Inf battalions organised into 3 brigades. The Army of two,s dosnt really seem that new a concept.

[icelord]

Just wondering....whats the population of Pakistan? Australia is approx 20 million.Interesting though, when I joined the Australian Army in 1985, the strength of the Army was 32000, with only six Inf battalions organised into 3 brigades. The Army of two,s dosnt really seem that new a concept.
Just a few more then Aus, around 165 million. And just a note to MG3, unless you can back up your " is that all" mentality with a reasonable answer, i should point this out.:coffee Pakistan devotes $4.26 Billion to its Military, Australia devotes $17.84Billion, and thats only last years, not including the $2 Billion spent on C-17, the upcoming LHD, and future projects, as well as conflicts. 2500 might not "make a dent" but it will sure as hell pack a punch!:ar15

[MG 3]

Just a few more then Aus, around 165 million. And just a note to MG3, unless you can back up your " is that all" mentality with a reasonable answer, i should point this out.:coffee Pakistan devotes $4.26 Billion to its Military, Australia devotes $17.84Billion, and thats only last years, not including the $2 Billion spent on C-17, the upcoming LHD, and future projects, as well as conflicts. 2500 might not "make a dent" but it will sure as hell pack a punch!:ar15

Hey! you took it in the wrong sence! my bad. What i ment was that you ppl obviously have the recources($17.84b), then why not a big increase.

[MG 3]

Really sorry. I realize that my comments were out of line. Must have been high or somthing.

[icelord]

then why not a big increase.
Please note the raising of a battalion.

[MG 3]

What it looks like to me is that aus is going for a more mobile type rapid responce force. Well then this increase is not so much an increase in mil might, but shows a move towards gaining stratigic power.

[icelord]

What it looks like to me is that aus is going for a more mobile type rapid responce force. Well then this increase is not so much an increase in mil might, but shows a move towards gaining stratigic power.
Hmm, theres hope in this one. :D
Thats the idea, hell, everyones doing, its the "in" thing these days, mobility is "in". The new battalion will be based in Adelaide, which means it has a direct road, rail and air corridor to Darwin, where the northern bases can be used to deploy. No moving to combine resources from seperate areas,uniteruppted supplies can be sent back and forth, combined training excercises are easier to logistically set up and it does a hell of a lot for Adelaide, the "happening" place:rolleyes:

[Aussie Digger]

Hey! you took it in the wrong sence! my bad. What i ment was that you ppl obviously have the recources($17.84b), then why not a big increase.

We certainly DO have the resources to support a MASSIVE force if necessary, but it's not. As a rough guide, we currently devote around 1.8% of our GDP (our GDP is now over AU$1 Trillion per year) to defence and have a manpower force of around 4.9 million males and 4.8 million females aged between 18-49 which would be suitable for military service IF necessary.

As can be plainly seen. With our resources and population base we could create a massively powerful and large defence force. Our political ties with the USA, means virtually no military capability is un-reachable for us politically, and if necessary we have a reasonably well developed nuclear industry (that will be enhanced if John Howard, our PM gets his way) that could produce nuclear weapons reasonably quickly if necessary.

However none of this is necessary.

Our defence forces are designed to maintain reasonably capable air and naval forces to interdict any realistic aggressor in the maritime approaches to our Country.

We also maintain a small but reasonably high quality land force capable of expanding to a reasonable size within a few years if necessary.

The army is comprised of regular (full time) and reserve (part time) components. The full time component comprises 6 infantry battalions, plus support armour, artillery, aviation and combat support elements.

This new announcement adds 2x additional regular infantry battalions plus (presumably) supporting assets. As such it's a 30% increase in the size of the available "deployable" forces. This is what makes the announcement significant.

In world terms, it's not much to write home about. In Australian terms, it's the biggest expansion we've had since we fought in Vietnam, which should also show it's significance...

[Grand Danois]

Any personnel expansion is rare in Western militaries these days, so this is quite a significant thing.

I am also thinking that the Aussie Army for the past decades being the least prioritised service of the three services (Air Force, Navy, Army), it further underlines what capabilities are thought to be useful and needed in the future.

[Aussie Digger]

Any personnel expansion is rare in Western militaries these days, so this is quite a significant thing.

I am also thinking that the Aussie Army for the past decades being the least prioritised service of the three services (Air Force, Navy, Army), it further underlines what capabilities are thought to be useful and needed in the future.

Exactly. Since Vietnam Government hasn't really known what to do with Army IMHO, so they designed a "role" for it in the defence of Australia, as no other operation could apparently be envisaged.

Army's role was to maintain a small relatively light force capable of dealing with "minor" incursions that got through the "fortress" of our Air and Naval forces and their abilities to attack enemies in our maritime approaches.

It was expected that any enemy would be so heavily damaged that the best they would be able to do would be to land small "special forces" type units on Australian soil and as such Army was designed around "asset protection" and smallish "mobile" forces able to "clean up" any minor incursion.

The Australian Defence Force was not equipped or trained or support for "expeditionary" operations as was evidenced in 1987 when we were hard pressed to deploy even a single infantry company (120 men) to Fiji for "evacuation of civilians".

Thankfully such a ludicrous situation has been rectified, though we are in some ways still working towards "fixing" this problem. ADF is certainly NOT gaining a "strategic power" IMHO. We lack FAR too many capabilities and are far too small for that.

What we are developing is small, high quality forces that can contribute well to Coalition operations and light forces that can conduct "peace keeping" and "protected evacuation" type roles. To say we are developing forces capable of effecting the strategic situation ANYWHERE is overstating things a bit I think...

[MG 3]

You guys said that your army is de commisioning M113A1's and replacing them with defenders. Are they changing the objectives of the batalion? In my openion you cant replace M113's with defenders.

[MG 3]

Even in an expeditionary force light armour is needed, this could include AFV's and others of the same leauge.

[Todjaeger]

You guys said that your army is de commisioning M113A1's and replacing them with defenders. Are they changing the objectives of the batalion? In my openion you cant replace M113's with defenders.

I believe it was the M113s assigned to Reserve units that are being decommissioned and replaced with LR Defenders. From what has been said about the role and use of Reserve it sounds like that is being done to reduce the ongoing operational costs of Reserve.

Approx. 350 Regular M113s are being upgraded with new power packs, a turrent, etc. See the links below.
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/lsd/land106/land106.cfm
and
http://www.tenix.com/Main.asp?ID=437&ListID=15

I assume the other approx. 350 will be mothballed in due course. Aussie Digger mentioned a project Land 400 that was looking at getting IFVs for Army, but I haven't found any details. My vote would be for the CV9040 (possibly with an ATGM like Javelin?)

[MG 3]

A turret is a good idea. We are also introducing the Al-Talah in a turret version but most(about 500 excluding regular types) with heavy weaponary will have either TOW's or MILAN's. Sadly we dont have a single wheeled armoured vehical in the army. All the emphasis is on more and more M113's and Al-Talah's.

[Waylander]

Getting the same design is good for maintenance and operations costs.
The problem with M113s is that you will never be able to upgrade them so much that they become true IFVs.

[icelord]

As has been pointed out somewhat, you have misunderstood the replacement of M113s. The reserves are set to remove the M113 and replace them with Defenders, although with the changing role envisioned for them, they may not be removed any time soon. In other posts its been mentioned that the ASLAVS have taken over any deployment role as in Iraq, where they spearheaded any movement and protected Embassy staff. The Bushmasters provide light armour to go with these convoys. Perhaps a larger purchase of Bushmasters will replace some of the M113s, while i'd go with a hybrid, being the SEP, which comes in tracked or wheel, and would be much better mission wise with lack of need for refueling.

[Aussie Digger]

As has been pointed out somewhat, you have misunderstood the replacement of M113s. The reserves are set to remove the M113 and replace them with Defenders, although with the changing role envisioned for them, they may not be removed any time soon. In other posts its been mentioned that the ASLAVS have taken over any deployment role as in Iraq, where they spearheaded any movement and protected Embassy staff. The Bushmasters provide light armour to go with these convoys. Perhaps a larger purchase of Bushmasters will replace some of the M113s, while i'd go with a hybrid, being the SEP, which comes in tracked or wheel, and would be much better mission wise with lack of need for refueling.

The Western Australian 10th Light Horse has already had it's M113's removed from service and replaced with the recon/surveillance variant (RSV) Landrover (same 4x4 Landrover as that which the "RFSU's" and SOCOMD use).

All other reserve units are scheduled to have their M113's removed from service to be replaced with Landrovers and eventually the new recce/surveillance 4x4 variant chosen under Project Overlander. The HNA plan has already announced this.

The only reserve armoured unit that will have anything like the capability it has now, is the 12/16th Hunter River Lancers in Tamworth that are to be equipped with Bushmaster IMV's (funnily enough this unit is the "local unit" for Defmin NELSON's Parliamenty Secretary for Defence, Mr Sandy Macdonald...) This is the ONLY Reserve Armoured Corps unit that will get anything like an Armoured vehicle.

As to the ASLAV "spearheading the deployments". They have only done so because Army lacks a decent tracked armoured vehicle capable of being deployed to Iraq. Army's raves that the ASLAV's are the "best armoured vehicle in Iraq", yet they are not as well armoured as Stryker's. The phase 4 upgrade of the ASLAV is in fact intended to bring them close to this standard. They are certainly very limited in both firepower and armour protection compared to Bradley, Warrior or similar vehicles deployed by other nations and they're only true advantage over any other armoured vehicle in Iraq is their speed which should be obvious given that they are in fact wheeled...

I feel certain that if Army had M113AS3/4's or a decent new IFV in-service, 5/7RAR would not have taken Bushmaster's to Iraq. ASLAV probably still would have gone in their Cavalry role, but the infantry would have been carried in a decent tracked vehicle...

[old faithful]

The Western Australian 10th Light Horse has already had it's M113's removed from service and replaced with the recon/surveillance variant (RSV) Landrover (same 4x4 Landrover as that which the "RFSU's" and SOCOMD use).

All other reserve units are scheduled to have their M113's removed from service to be replaced with Landrovers and eventually the new recce/surveillance 4x4 variant chosen under Project Overlander. The HNA plan has already announced this.

The only reserve armoured unit that will have anything like the capability it has now, is the 12/16th Hunter River Lancers in Tamworth that are to be equipped with Bushmaster IMV's (funnily enough this unit is the "local unit" for Defmin NELSON's Parliamenty Secretary for Defence, Mr Sandy Macdonald...) This is the ONLY Reserve Armoured Corps unit that will get anything like an Armoured vehicle.

As to the ASLAV "spearheading the deployments". They have only done so because Army lacks a decent tracked armoured vehicle capable of being deployed to Iraq. Army's raves that the ASLAV's are the "best armoured vehicle in Iraq", yet they are not as well armoured as Stryker's. The phase 4 upgrade of the ASLAV is in fact intended to bring them close to this standard. They are certainly very limited in both firepower and armour protection compared to Bradley, Warrior or similar vehicles deployed by other nations and they're only true advantage over any other armoured vehicle in Iraq is their speed which should be obvious given that they are in fact wheeled...

I feel certain that if Army had M113AS3/4's or a decent new IFV in-s

been carried in a decent tracked vehicle...

im not so sure AD, after speaking to some 2Cav digs,speed is a critical element when conducting convoy escort,the faster the convoy travels,the less vulnerable it is to IED attack,and ambush. If we were talking about assult,then definatly, a tracked ifv like bradley or warrier would be the go,but for convoy escort,a wheeled afv is preferable.

[Aussie Digger]

im not so sure AD, after speaking to some 2Cav digs,speed is a critical element when conducting convoy escort,the faster the convoy travels,the less vulnerable it is to IED attack,and ambush. If we were talking about assult,then definatly, a tracked ifv like bradley or warrier would be the go,but for convoy escort,a wheeled afv is preferable.

There's no denying that any IFV or even an upgraded M113 is a better protected vehicle than any wheeled vehicle though. 2 Cav Regt pers are hardly unbiased. They love the LAV's as do all it's users. It's the Bushmasters I was referring to particularly...

[icelord]

There's no denying that any IFV or even an upgraded M113 is a better protected vehicle than any wheeled vehicle though. 2 Cav Regt pers are hardly unbiased. They love the LAV's as do all it's users. It's the Bushmasters I was referring to particularly...
Well, the bushmasters can't be that bad, the CDF is having 4 more added to the current 15 in Iraq. Plus, i got money says the infantry boys would be loving the Air con thats on board, but it would suck jumping out into the heat...Shot-gun being driver:rolleyes:

[old faithful]

you are right about better protection,but an rpg milan etc is easier to aim at slower veh,and i for one,would feel safer in a fast veh,than a slightly better protected slow mover,and lets face it,modern anti tank weopons will take out any apc,ifv, so give me the fastest one!!!

[Aussie Digger]

Well, the bushmasters can't be that bad, the CDF is having 4 more added to the current 15 in Iraq. Plus, i got money says the infantry boys would be loving the Air con thats on board, but it would suck jumping out into the heat...Shot-gun being driver:rolleyes:

That's life in the desert for you. You can't remain cool all the time... :rolleyes:

I think the fact that Bushmasters are there at all says a lot about Army's plans and "crystal ball" gazing.

Bushmaster as has been pointed out many times, was designed as a "battlefield taxi" and to provide armour protection for those in an area of operations, not those in the front line who are going into harms way. Unfortunately the vehicle is being forced to be used in this role because there's nothing else we have that can do it. The recent upgrades announced (cool water drinking systems, "remote weapon stations" and armour package upgrades) are indicative of this.

If Army would get some backbone and demand Government provide them with a decent IFV and point these issues out to Government for ALL our equipment instead of "toeing the company line" and pretending everythings okay, the Digs wouldn't have to make do with "2nd best" kit for years on end and the Government wouldn't need to splash out on the innumerable "rapid acquisitions" that continually happen any time we wish to deploy somewhere new...

The situation's absurd. They refuse to spend money, deny anything's wrong with their way of thinking, actually put their plan's into action and only then realise they were wrong all along and then spend fortunes on fixing the problem that was already there. Unfortunately it's only ever AFTER our soldiers, sailors and airmen have to go into harm's way.

[MG 3]

Guys Ive seen the aus army use some 6x6 LR Defenders. Are the recon vehicals or used as fast assault.

[Aussie Digger]

Guys Ive seen the aus army use some 6x6 LR Defenders. Are the recon vehicals or used as fast assault.

Our Special Air Service Regiment uses "modified" 6x6 Land Rover 110's as reputedly does 4RAR (Commando). They are used for long range patrolling, ()recon missions in the main) though when necessary they are used to provide fire support with heavier weapons (MAG-58 GPMG, 0.50 cal HMG's, Mk 19 40mm auto-grenade launchers, Javelin ATGW and Sniper rifles).

As they are unarmoured (except for mine protection - "belly-armour") I doubt they are used to assault many positions and they are certainly not "fast"...

The special forces variants however are to be replaced by a "customised" variant of the HMT 6x6 Supacat with an armoured cabin and other "goodies"...

A variant is also used by the reserves as an "infantry mobility vehicle" and carry an entire section in purpose designed seating. These are used by general infantry forces and generally carry a 5.56mm F-89A1 Minimi, though sometimes a MAG-58 GPMG.

Other variants are used for Satellite Communications, engineering vehicles and a new version is being constructed to support our RBS-70 surface to air missile teams within 16 AD Regt...

All these variants are due to be phased out shortly however as Australia has a project known as "Overlander" to replace or upgrade all it's non-armoured or technical (such as specialist engineering vehicles) vehicles. This is to be chosen relatively shortly and is a massive project, with nearly 6000 vehicles needing replacement...

[icelord]

Bushmaster as has been pointed out many times, was designed as a "battlefield taxi" and to provide armour protection for those in an area of operations, not those in the front line who are going into harms way. Unfortunately the vehicle is being forced to be used in this role because there's nothing else we have that can do it. The recent upgrades announced (cool water drinking systems, "remote weapon stations" and armour package upgrades) are indicative of this.

If Army would get some backbone and demand Government provide them with a decent IFV and point these issues out to Government for ALL our equipment instead of "toeing the company line" and pretending everythings okay, the Digs wouldn't have to make do with "2nd best" kit for years on end and the Government wouldn't need to splash out on the innumerable "rapid acquisitions" that continually happen any time we wish to deploy somewhere new...

The situation's absurd. They refuse to spend money, deny anything's wrong with their way of thinking, actually put their plan's into action and only then realise they were wrong all along and then spend fortunes on fixing the problem that was already there. Unfortunately it's only ever AFTER our soldiers, sailors and airmen have to go into harm's way.

All they have to do is ask, with the way defence proqurments(spell check) is going, u basically have a chrissy list that santa reads and gives you. These "rapid acqusitions" take most countries years, let alone a couple of months to buy. Look at the USMC, they have gone to the US senate and said we need, this this and this, and they've come back with a wait and see. Over here, CDF goes to the PM, "i need a couple of big arse planes, some Boats the whirly birds land on and people ferry to places, and a few new cars and trucks, say 6000-7000". The reply, "alright, what colour interior do u want, same old green, and brown", CDF, "nah, gold and hot pink, get some more female recruits on board:D ".
If you checked, the Javilin was bought before anyone deployed, few months later, their thanking their rears as it got them out of some hairy places. The former CDF had it brought to him, said why not, the PM said use it wisely young padiwan, and it kicked some serious arse.This is the biggest advancement the ADF has seen in years, enjoy it while it lasts.

The special forces variants however are to be replaced by a "customised" variant of the HMT 6x6 Supacat with an armoured cabin and other "goodies

Really, supacat, i thought they were still looking, the supacat 6x6 just seems a little, small for the SAS, compared with the defender. I could see it being used for the Reserves or regs on recon, but on long hauls like the ones currently undertaken, i just don't see it lasting as well as the Defender, even with Specialised SAS mods

[old faithful]

All they have to do is ask, with the way defence proqurments(spell check) is going, u basically have a chrissy list that santa reads and gives you. These "rapid acqusitions" take most countries years, let alone a couple of months to buy. Look at the USMC, they have gone to the US senate and said we need, this this and this, and they've come back with a wait and see. Over here, CDF goes to the PM, "i need a couple of big arse planes, some Boats the whirly birds land on and people ferry to places, and a few new cars and trucks, say 6000-7000". The reply, "alright, what colour interior do u want, same old green, and brown", CDF, "nah, gold and hot pink, get some more female recruits on board:D ".
If you checked, the Javilin was bought before anyone deployed, few months later, their thanking their rears as it got them out of some hairy places. The former CDF had it brought to him, said why not, the PM said use it wisely young padiwan, and it kicked some serious arse.This is the biggest advancement the ADF has seen in years, enjoy it while it lasts.



Really, supacat, i thought they were still looking, the supacat 6x6 just seems a little, small for the SAS, compared with the defender. I could see it being used for the Reserves or regs on recon, but on long hauls like the ones currently undertaken, i just don't see it lasting as well as the Defender, even with Specialised SAS mods

Have to agree with you mate! The "buys" happening at the moment are unlike anything I have seen before.Quality buys to! Under Beazley we got.....M&M,s in our rat packs....ha ha! oh,ok to be fair,we got collins class subs,F/A18,s,Kanimbla and Manoora(they saw us comin!),Raven radio,s,styers...but these were all purchaces needed to replace outdated equipment, nothing like whats happening now. Hope it dosnt stop just yet, and i feel there will be some surprises in store in the near future! very optimistic!

[Aussie Digger]

Have to agree with you mate! The "buys" happening at the moment are unlike anything I have seen before.Quality buys to! Under Beazley we got.....M&M,s in our rat packs....ha ha! oh,ok to be fair,we got collins class subs,F/A18,s,Kanimbla and Manoora(they saw us comin!),Raven radio,s,styers...but these were all purchaces needed to replace outdated equipment, nothing like whats happening now. Hope it dosnt stop just yet, and i feel there will be some surprises in store in the near future! very optimistic!

There's plenty of acquisitions for Army still waiting to be progressed, Land 17 - Artillery, Overlander, 81mm Long range mortar system, Land 40 Phase 2 "area" direct fire weapons systems, ASLAV Phase 4 upgrades, new Battlefield comms project, Chinook upgrade/additional airframes, further phases of Land 125 "soldier enhancement" project, Land 400 "new" armoured vehicle acquisition project. The list goes on and on and these are the projects that are publicly announced... :D

[icelord]

There's plenty of acquisitions for Army still waiting to be progressed, Land 17 - Artillery, Overlander, 81mm Long range mortar system, Land 40 Phase 2 "area" direct fire weapons systems, ASLAV Phase 4 upgrades, new Battlefield comms project, Chinook upgrade/additional airframes, further phases of Land 125 "soldier enhancement" project, Land 400 "new" armoured vehicle acquisition project. The list goes on and on and these are the projects that are publicly announced... :D

Is there any timeframe, if ever that these projects hope to be wrapped up and put into production, the overlander is going nowhere with no news about its candidates or tests.

Under Beazley we got.....M&M,s in our rat packs

Theres a Top Secret Project to Enhance the Overall soldier, its know as Project WRP, or Work Rest Play, it involves upgrading Rat packs with Mars Bars:onfloorl:

we got collins class subs,F/A18,s,Kanimbla and Manoora(they saw us comin!

See, beazleys the sort of bloke who walks into a used car dealership, comes out smiling cause he bought 3 datsons and a ford laser and thinks he got a bargain, failing to check whether it works and if he can get in it first....:rolleyes:

[old faithful]

Is there any timeframe, if ever that these projects hope to be wrapped up and put into production, the overlander is going nowhere with no news about its candidates or tests.



Theres a Top Secret Project to Enhance the Overall soldier, its know as Project WRP, or Work Rest Play, it involves upgrading Rat packs with Mars Bars:onfloorl:



See, beazleys the sort of bloke who walks into a used car dealership, comes out smiling cause he bought 3 datsons and a ford laser and thinks he got a bargain, failing to check whether it works and if he can get in it first....:rolleyes:

ha ha ha! he couldnt get into a T10 harness when we wanted to review our para allowance, and he coudnt get into the turret of Leo1 for a pr shot on K92! I couldnt get a new pair of boots for K92,and my webbing was mine!,I made it! The defence projects running at the moment are not to be joked about, we are getting seriously good kit, i know there are some short falls in personal kit, but on the whole the ADF is very well equiped...and getting better!

[Aussie Digger]

ha ha ha! he couldnt get into a T10 harness when we wanted to review our para allowance, and he coudnt get into the turret of Leo1 for a pr shot on K92! I couldnt get a new pair of boots for K92,and my webbing was mine!,I made it! The defence projects running at the moment are not to be joked about, we are getting seriously good kit, i know there are some short falls in personal kit, but on the whole the ADF is very well equiped...and getting better!

You want some jokes about military service?

How to simulate Army life...

1. Dig a big hole in your back yard and live in it for 30 days straight.

2. Go inside only to clean the house. On weekends, you can eat in the house, but you can't talk.

3. Pour 10 inches of nasty, crappy water into your hole, then shovel it out, stack sandbags around it and cover it with a sheet of old plywood.

4. Fill a backpack with 50 pounds of kitty litter. Never take it off outdoors. Jog everywhere you go.

5. Every couple of weeks, dress up in your best clothes and go the scummiest part of town, find the most run down trashy bar you can, pay $10 per beer until you're hammered, then walk home in the freezing cold.

6. Perform a weekly disassembly and inspection of your lawnmower.

7. On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays turn the water pressure in your shower down to a trickle, then on Tuesday and Thursday turn it up so hard it peels skin. On Saturdays and Sundays declare to your entire family that they can't use the shower in order to keep it clean for inspection.

8. Go inside and make your bed every morning. Have your wife tear the blankets off at random during the day. Re-make the bed each time until it is time to go back outside and sleep in your hole.

9. Have your next door neighbor come over each day at 5am, and blow a whistle so loud that Helen Keller could hear it and shout "Get up! Get up! You are moving too slow! Get down and do push-ups!"

10. Have your mother-in-law write down everything she's going to do the following day, then have her make you stand in the back yard at 6am and read it to you.

11. Eat the raunchiest Mexican food you can find for three days straight, then lock yourself out of the bathroom for 12 hours. Hang a sign on the bathroom door that says, "Unserviceable."

12. Submit a request form to your father-in-law, asking if it's ok for you to leave your house before 5pm.

13. Invite 200 of your not-so-closest friends to come over. Have them all dig holes in your yard to live in. After 30 days, fill in the holes and wave at your friends and family through the front window of your home as you set out for a 25 mile walk and After-Action-Review.

14. Shower with above-mentioned friends.

15. Make your family qualify to operate all the appliances in your home (i.e. Dishwasher operator, blender technician, etc.).

16. Walk around your car for 4 hours checking the tire pressure every 15 minutes. Write down on a piece of paper everything you want the shop to fix the next time you bring the car in. Give your wife the list to throw away.

17. Sit in your car and let it run for 4 hours with the windows down before going anywhere. Tune the radio to static and monitor it while letting the car run. If it is cold outside, don't run the heat. Sleep on the hood or roof of your car.

18. Empty all the garbage bins in your house, and sweep your driveway 3 times a day, whether they need it or not.

19. Repaint your entire house once a month. Paint white rings around all the trees in your neighborhood. Paint all curbs yellow. Paint all rocks red.

20. Cook all of your food blindfolded, groping for any spice and seasoning you can get your hands on.

21. Use eighteen scoops of budget coffee grounds per pot, and allow each pot to sit 5 hours before drinking.

22. Have your neighbor collect all your mail for a month, read your magazines, and randomly lose every 5th item.

23. Spend $20,000 on a satellite system for your TV, but only watch CNN and the Weather Channel when you are inside to eat. Tune the tint on the TV to green.

24. Avoid watching your green tinted TV with the exception of movies which are played in the middle of the night. Have the family vote on which movie to watch and then show a different one.

25. Have your 5-year-old cousin give you a haircut with goat shears.

26. Sew big pockets to the legs of your pants. Don't use them.

27. Spend 2 weeks sleeping in holes in your neighbor's lawns and call it a deployment.

28. Spend a year sleeping in holes in your local area and call it world travel.

29. Attempt to spend 5 years working at McDonalds, and NOT get promoted.

30. Ensure that any promotions you do get are from stepping on the dead bodies of your co-workers.

31. Blast heavy metal music on your stereo and conduct Ranger PT, grass drills, and sprints on your front lawn after your neighbors have gone to bed.

32. When your children are in bed, run into their room with a megaphone and shout at the top of your lungs that your home is under attack, and order them to man their fighting positions. Don't let them eat or sleep again for two days.

33. Make your family menu a week ahead of time and do so without checking the pantry and refrigerator.

34. Post a menu on the refrigerator door informing your family that you are having steak for dinner. Then make them wait in line for at least an hour. When they finally get to the kitchen, tell them that you are out of steak, but you have dried ham or hot dogs. Repeat daily until they don't pay attention to the menu any more so they just ask for hot dogs.

35. When baking a cake, prop up one side of the pan while it is in the oven. Spread icing on real thick to level it off.

36. In the middle of January, place a gate at the end of your street. Have your family stand watches at the gate, rotating at 4-hour intervals.

37. Make your family live with you in your hole for 6 weeks. Then tell them that at the end of the 6th week you're going to take them to Disneyland for "block leave." When the end of the 6th week rolls around, inform them that Disneyland has been canceled due to the fact that they need to get ready for Individual Skill Certification, and that it will be another week before they can go back into the house.

38. In your hole (refer to #1), with 200 of your not-so-closest friends (see para. 13), get the flu.

39. Sleep in a thicket of blackberries or rose bushes. Tie a string to your foot that runs to the house. Have your wife yank on the string about 3 hours after you go to sleep. Crawl out of the bushes and go to the house to see what she wants. She should then shine a flashlight in your eyes and mumble "Just making sure you're okay."

40. Do not sleep from 1:00 a.m. Monday mornings until 3 p.m. Wednesday afternoons. Tie a branch around your neck and chew on sand to stay awake.

41. When there is a thunderstorm in your area, dig a trench into your hole so that it fills up with water. During the worst part of the storm, get out of your hole and go for a 12 mile walk.

42. Don't change your socks for a week. After they disintegrate off with pieces of your feet, put on an unbroken pair of new boots and go for a 12 mile walk.

43. For mechanized infantry or armor types: leave the lawn mower running next to your hole 24 hours a day. When you get an opportunity to sleep in your house, put lube oil in your humidifier and set it on high.

44. Have the paperboy give you a haircut.

45. Set up a port-a-potty in the corner of your yard. Once a week, have the service truck back into your yard and pump it out. Make sure the wind carries the smell into your neighbors house. Ignore his complaints.

46. Every other month pull every single possession you own out of your house and line everything up on your lawn from smallest to largest, front to back. Count everything and write it down to file with your insurance company. Give your wife the list to throw away.

47. Lock wire the lug nuts on your car.

48. Buy a trash can, but don't use it. Store the garbage in your hole.

49. Get up every night around midnight and stroll around your yard to "check the perimeter."

50. Run the garden hose to your hole and turn it on. Set your alarm clock to go off at random during the night. Jump up and get dressed as fast as you can. Run out into the backyard and get in your hole.

51. Once a month, take apart every major appliance in your home and put them back together again.

52. Build a scale model of your yard. Make your children draw sketches of it including little arrows indicating what they are going to do when they go out to play. Post these sketches on a bulletin board for reference.

53. Remove the insulation and widen the frames of your front and back doors so that no matter how tight you shut the door, the weather will still get inside.

54. Every so often, throw the cat in front of your hole and shout "Enemy in the wire! Fire Claymores!" Then run into the house cut off the circuit breaker. Yell at the wife and kids for violating security and not maintaining good noise and light discipline.

55. Put on the headphones from your stereo set, but don't plug them in. Hang a paper cup around your neck with string. Go sit in your car. Say to no one in particular "Lost-One, this is Lost-Three, are you lost too, over?" Sit there for three or four hours with the engine running. Say again to no one in particular "Negative contact, Lost-Three out." Roll up your headphones and paper cup and place them in a box.

[chargerRT]

PMSL!!! absolutely priceless!! :cheers

[icelord]

Latest Contact mag has report that Landrover has pulled out of Project overlander, leaving Tenix high and dry.
Also, a mate in DFR is a bit sceptical on the possibility of getting enough numbers for 3RAR with the current new recruit figures down, although he is hopeful that they will get a min. Target, what i'm wondering is, what if they don't get enough? Most will come over from Para 2 mech, while 400-500 will go to 4RAR. Will Most of para go though, or will they move to other roles.
Also coming from DFR is that Army will perhaps go back to old ways of selecting the jobs and Corps for you, much like Duntroon does at the moment, filling people in where it needs them. At the moment for everyone out there, you can select whether to be Rifleman, gun number, armoured or any trade. Going on the requirments, perhaps Tradees will be able to select their preference while everyone else will go into the pool, first ones out get Infantry.

[Aussie Digger]

Latest Contact mag has report that Landrover has pulled out of Project overlander, leaving Tenix high and dry.
Also, a mate in DFR is a bit sceptical on the possibility of getting enough numbers for 3RAR with the current new recruit figures down, although he is hopeful that they will get a min. Target, what i'm wondering is, what if they don't get enough? Most will come over from Para 2 mech, while 400-500 will go to 4RAR. Will Most of para go though, or will they move to other roles.
Also coming from DFR is that Army will perhaps go back to old ways of selecting the jobs and Corps for you, much like Duntroon does at the moment, filling people in where it needs them. At the moment for everyone out there, you can select whether to be Rifleman, gun number, armoured or any trade. Going on the requirments, perhaps Tradees will be able to select their preference while everyone else will go into the pool, first ones out get Infantry.

Mate, you sure you're drum is right about the Battalions? 3RAR is an already formed battalion and whilst not at "authorised" numbers (due to DFR's poor performance I might add), it is not far off. Why would 4RAR be getting 400-500 new soldiers?

The new battalions are to be 5RAR and 7RAR (7RAR formed after the current 5/7 de-links) and 8/9RAR. Both new battalions will have their RHQ formed this year, and 7RAR is to be manned first with 8/9RAR expected to be fully manned by 2011/12. Most new recruits for the next couple of years would go to 7RAR I'd imagine...

[icelord]

"The 3rd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment (3 RAR), will be re-roled from a light infantry / parachute battalion to a mechanised infantry battalion and provided with upgraded M113 and Bushmaster vehicles"
http://www.army.gov.au/HNA/default2.htm
"The 3 RAR mechanised battlegroup will be raised from 2011, when 3 RAR is relocated from Holsworthy to its new home in Adelaide.The new vehicles delivered under two key Defence Capability Plan projects (Project Land 106 and Land 116), which will already be in service, will be redistributed within the 1st and 7th Brigades to provide both 3 RAR and the current mechanised battlegroup, based on the 5th/7th Battalion (5/7 RAR), with equal levels of protected mobility."

My understanding is, 3RAR para/infantry is to be made Mechanised, as stated in Hardened network plan, they will be moved from holsworthy to Adelaide, and the para made a part of 4RAR Special forces, am i high or close to nowhere?

[Waylander]

@Aussie Digger
Muhahahaha, great!!!
I think you could use this for most western militaries.

[Aussie Digger]

"The 3rd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment (3 RAR), will be re-roled from a light infantry / parachute battalion to a mechanised infantry battalion and provided with upgraded M113 and Bushmaster vehicles"
http://www.army.gov.au/HNA/default2.htm
"The 3 RAR mechanised battlegroup will be raised from 2011, when 3 RAR is relocated from Holsworthy to its new home in Adelaide.The new vehicles delivered under two key Defence Capability Plan projects (Project Land 106 and Land 116), which will already be in service, will be redistributed within the 1st and 7th Brigades to provide both 3 RAR and the current mechanised battlegroup, based on the 5th/7th Battalion (5/7 RAR), with equal levels of protected mobility."

My understanding is, 3RAR para/infantry is to be made Mechanised, as stated in Hardened network plan, they will be moved from holsworthy to Adelaide, and the para made a part of 4RAR Special forces, am i high or close to nowhere?

Wayoff mate, that info's out of date. 3RAR is now to transfer to Townsville and is to re-role to a light infanty battalion, minus the parachute capability. It's support assets (such as "A" Battery) will also move to Townsville.

5/7RAR is to "de-link" as 2/4RAR did in the late 90's and 2 new battalions will be formed: 5RAR and 7RAR. These units will both be mechanised with 5RAR located in Darwin and 7RAR will be located in the new facilities to be built in Adelaide. Together they will form the mech inf battalions assigned to 1 Brigade.

4RAR (Cmdo) is to take on the "ready" Parachute company group capability that 3RAR currently maintains. This will be done from existing resources which were bolstered to 2x companies (plus TAG-East) under the recent "Special Forces Direct Entry" scheme.

A new light infantry battalion (8/9RAR) will be formed and located in South East Queensland. It hasn't been decided as to whether this battalion will be located at Enoggera or Amberley, though I'd almost put money into it moving back into it's old "lines" at Gallipoli barracks and 9RQR getting moved out, possibly to become part of 11th Brigade (Queensland's "reserve" brigade)....

The HNA plan still exists but it's been modified significantly by a Government apparently prepared to invest quite a bit more in defence than has recently been the case...

[old faithful]

Latest Contact mag has report that Landrover has pulled out of Project overlander, leaving Tenix high and dry.
Also, a mate in DFR is a bit sceptical on the possibility of getting enough numbers for 3RAR with the current new recruit figures down, although he is hopeful that they will get a min. Target, what i'm wondering is, what if they don't get enough? Most will come over from Para 2 mech, while 400-500 will go to 4RAR. Will Most of para go though, or will they move to other roles.
Also coming from DFR is that Army will perhaps go back to old ways of selecting the jobs and Corps for you, much like Duntroon does at the moment, filling people in where it needs them. At the moment for everyone out there, you can select whether to be Rifleman, gun number, armoured or any trade. Going on the requirments, perhaps Tradees will be able to select their preference while everyone else will go into the pool, first ones out get Infantry.

most will go from para to mech,while 4-500 will go to 4RAR? Man, 3RAR would be stuggling to have 500 on the books! # rifle coys,approx 300,admin coy,about 90,support coy,the biggest,about 150,and BHQ with about 40,thats assuming everything is fully manned,delta coy is a training coy with only a small infrastructure,maybe 8 men.:lol3

[scraw]

LAlso coming from DFR is that Army will perhaps go back to old ways of selecting the jobs and Corps for you, much like Duntroon does at the moment, filling people in where it needs them.

I'm not exactly sure how telling people though they might want to go infantry they could end up a cook is going to help recruiting numbers.

[icelord]

I'm not exactly sure how telling people though they might want to go infantry they could end up a cook is going to help recruiting numbers.
Thats the problem i see, if this does happen, then who knows, u might end up doing a steward or cook when u want Engineer.
AD, my bad, thats the info i came across on the Army website, i should have realised, its all govt. related, and unless its politcal party info, it never gets updated. :rolleyes:

[cherry]

What are the chances of Army announcing another squadron of MBTs when the first shipment of Abrams arrives on our shores very soon?

What other equipment purchases are likely to emerge from this decision to increase troop numbers and battalions?