Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions

[weasel1962]

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[Theodor]

Maybe just nit picking here but should Royal be in the name?

The ''Malaysian Army'' (Malay: Tentera Darat) is the land component of the Malaysian Armed Forces. Steeped in British Army traditions, the Malaysian Army does not carry the title 'Royal' as do the Royal Malaysian Air Force and the Royal Malaysian Navy. Instead. the 'Royal' title is bestowed on selected army corps and regiments who have been accorded the honour by His Majesty the Yang di-Pertuan Agong.

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Army

The information you've presented looks about the same as the source above and may not be all that out of date if at all.

[renjer]

Tot I start a new thread on the Malaysian ground force instead of the old 155mm gun thread.

Excellent idea!

I think 4 RAMD is also a Gurkha regiment.

This is wrong. There are no Gurkha units in the MA. However, there are Malaysians of Gurkha descent serving in the MA.

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[flyingfrog]

This is wrong. There are no Gurkha units in the MA. However, there are Malaysians of Gurkha descent serving in the MA.
yup.. no gurkha regiment in MA.. but there is one regiment that had been called "Gurkha Malaya". Not sure which one... maybe like Weasel said, 4 RAMD.

[Paxter]

isnt there an newly establlish air core too? which is seperate from the airforce?

[caksz]

double post

[caksz]

isnt there an newly establlish air core too? which is seperate from the airforce?

11 - Agusta 109 LUH the air wing of the ground forces , some maybe fitted with unguided rocket and anti tank missile < maybe :p

[weasel1962]

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[kaybee]

yup.. no gurkha regiment in MA.. but there is one regiment that had been called "Gurkha Malaya". Not sure which one... maybe like Weasel said, 4 RAMD.
Yes, the "Gurkha Malaya" is the 4 RAMD.

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[renjer]

Here's a video link for the 51 RAD test firing their rockets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gzN-ZBdRgs

I saw it at another forum that also mentioned a 52 RAD. I know the 51st become operational about a year ago and that there has been plans for a second MLRS regiment. Does anyone know if there is already a 52nd?

[wzhtg]

Malaysian Army Aviation Receives 11th and Final A109 LOH]

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/Malaysian_Army_Aviation_Receives_Final_A109_LOH_20 060915.php

AgustaWestland is pleased to announce that the 11th and final A109 LOH helicopter for the Malaysian Army Aviation was handed over 12th September at AgustaWestland’s Vergiate factory in Italy.

Accepting the last LOH, on behalf of the Malaysian Army Aviation, were Lt. Gen. Datuk Muhammad Ismail bin Hj. Jamaluddin – Deputy Chief of Malaysian Army, and Col. Mohd Amin bin Mohd Razi – Director of Army Aviation.

The aircraft will now join the other 10 aircraft. This event marks the conclusion of a successful delivery programme which started in December 2005 with the handover of the first aircraft at the LIMA 2005 air show.

The Malaysian Army Aviation selected the A109 LOH in October 2003 as the most cost effective and capable machine after a rigorous competition and evaluation process run by the Malaysian Ministry of Defence. The primary purpose of the LOH is to serve as a cost efficient system for observation, reconnaissance, tactical transport and area suppression missions.

The A109 LOH, a version of the well known A109 LUH, is powered by two 711 shp Turbomeca Arrius 2K2 giving it excellent hot and high performance. With a maximum speed of 168 knots and a payload of up to 1.5 tons the A109 LUH is a fast, versatile and capable light twin-engine military helicopter

The Malaysian Army Aviation became the first operator of the A109 LOH in Asia and the third customer to start operations worldwide. A109 LUHs are already in service with the South African and Swedish Armed Forces. The A109 LUH, with 61 units ordered so far, is the foremost light twin engine helicopter for military utility and advanced training purposes.

-ends-
[/I]

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[renjer]

Abdul Aziz also said that he did not receive any information on the purchase of the BrahMos supersonic missiles from India as reported by the Indian Express newspaper on Oct 5.

"We have no plans to buy arms from India," said the Army chief.

I missed this part of the article the first time around. Well, too bad.

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[aaaditya]

hey,guys,interesting news.malaysian prince captain tunku ismail ibrahim,the grandson of the sultan of johar will be leading the jaipur based 61st cavalary regiment during the indian republic day parade on january26 2007.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/07jan24/national.htm#4

For the first time in the history of Republic Day celebrations, a foreigner will lead a unit of the Army contingent at the annual parade on January 26.
Captain Tunku Ismail Ibrahim, grandson of the Sultan of Johar, a state in Malaysia, will lead the mounted column of the Jaipur-based 61st cavalry which will form part of the Army contingent at the 105-minute-long parade.
The young Malaysian prince, who was commissioned in the Army two years ago after passing out from the prestigious Indian Military Academy (IMA) in Dehradun, is thrilled at the opportunity.
"It is a family tradition to get trained in the forces. My grandfather was trained in the Malaysian Army. My father, the crown prince of Johar, received training in the US," said Tunku, the first member of his family to join the Indian Army.
"It is a great honour to be part of such a great Army and to take part in the national parade. My father will come to watch the parade," the Captain said.

[weasel1962]

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[renjer]

Reported in Janes (Dec 06).

To keep the Sibmas fleet in service, the MA has cannibalised 1/2 of its Sibmas fire support vehicles to maintain the other half (88) in service. The MA wants to replace the Sibmas but does not have funding yet.

The MA purchased 162 Sibmas and a further 24 arm recovery vehicles in 1984.

I thought the PT-91M were meant to be the replacement. That's where rumours of 150-160 MBT numbers came from.

[weasel1962]

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[renjer]

In terms of roles it might make sense. An MBT would be a good replacement with the army moving from COIN to conventional warfare. Then there are 4 KAD regiments for the 4 divisions in the fire support role. Hence the number. Not sure if the PT-91M would make up the entire MBT fleet though.

[weasel1962]

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[kaybee]

PT-91 is not to replace Sibmas, have not heard of this one before. The MBT is for forming a new armoured brigade and will go first to 11 KAD, the only tank regiment in the army right now. Sibmas replacement is still being evaluated and would continue to be a wheeled vehicle for arming the calvary regiment.

[renjer]

No, we are not saying that the PT-91M is meant as a replacement for the Sibmas in its screening and convoy escort roles. You are right these are better performed by a wheeled vehicle. What happened to the 8x8 contest awhile back anyway? Anyone?

However, only an MBT can performed the kind of mobile strongpoint roles that weasel talked about. And there are 4 divisions in the army. All of which might need to carry out this kinds of engagement.

Remember, even if a tender has not been called it does not mean that a requirement does not exist. 4 Bde Mekanis is a testbed (and I would lump 1 Bde Amor together with it). There is no way that it will be the only unit of its type in the army.

I hope we do get more PT-91Ms. I hope DMD and Konstrukta get together and fashion the T21 turret around the 2A46MS. It would be nice upgrade to our tanks.

[qwerty223]

hey guys, I have a little news about our PT-91M.
Bumar: Czołg PT-91M pomyślnie przeszedł testy w Malezji
2007-02-11 14:44
Czołg PT-91M

Produkowany przez gliwicką fabrykę Bumar- Łabędy czołg PT-91M, zwany "Malajem", pomyślnie przeszedł trwające ponad miesiąc testy w Malezji. Najdalej w kwietniu pierwsze egzemplarze pojazdu trafią do tego kraju. Tym samym rozpocznie się realizacja wartego ok. 370 mln USD kontraktu.

W niedzielę samolot transportowy Rusłan przywiózł na lotnisko w podkatowickich Pyrzowicach egzemplarz czołgu PT-91M, który w końcu grudnia został wysłany na testy do Malezji. Jak poinformował PAP prezes Zakładów Mechanicznych Bumar-Łabędy, Artur Trzeciakowski, wszystkie, nawet najtrudniejsze próby wypadły dobrze.

"Jeszcze nigdy w historii zakładu nie realizowaliśmy tak trudnych prób. Przejechanie przez czołg 2100 km to 20-25 proc. tego, co zakłada się na cały okres jego eksploatacji, wynoszący zwykle ok. 25 lat" - powiedział w niedzielę prezes.

Czołg dla Malezji, potocznie zwany przez jego twórców "Malajem", oparty jest na konstrukcji znanego czołgu "Twardy", na potrzeby kontraktu został jednak istotnie zmodyfikowany. W Malezji przeszedł zarówno próby terenowe, jak i dystansowe. Jeździł po bezdrożach, plażach, ale i po autostradach. Kontrahenci sprawdzali m.in. jak pokonuje przeszkody oraz jak daje sobie radę w trudnych warunkach klimatycznych i terenowych.

Teraz do wykonania pozostały jeszcze próby strzelania, które odbędą się w Polsce. "W Malezji nie wykonuje się prób strzelania ostrą amunicją; nie ma do tego warunków. Strefa ochronna wynosi 40 km. Dlatego próby będą przeprowadzone w Polsce. Rozpoczną się za tydzień i potrwają mniej więcej do końca lutego" - dodał Trzeciakowski.

Podkreślił, że pomyślne testy w Malezji to olbrzymi krok w kierunku rozpoczęcia realizacji podpisanego w 2003 r. kontraktu - największego tego typu w ostatnich latach. Przewiduje on dostawę do Malezji 64 pojazdów wojskowych, w tym 48 czołgów. Pozostałe - to wozy zabezpieczenia technicznego, czołgi inżynieryjne i tzw. mosty towarzyszące. Ma to nastąpić do końca roku. Wartość kontraktu szacuje się na ok. 370 mln dolarów.

Pierwsze trzy pojazdy pozostaną w Polsce i posłużą do szkolenia malezyjskich użytkowników. Będą gotowe już w marcu. Do Malezji pierwsze czołgi polecą najdalej na początku kwietnia. (PAP)

A translator result

By produced factory gliwicką Bumar - tank Łabędy PT-91M, called " " Malajem, it has proceeded over month in malaysia prosperously tests lasting. First copies of vehicles will hit in april for this country furthest. Worth realization will be started same ok. 370 Million USD OF contract.

Transport aircraft has brought to sunday on airport in (to) copy tank Rusłan podkatowickich Pyrzowicach PT-91M, which (who) has been sent at the end of december on tests for malaysia. As chairman of mechanical plant (bet) has informed TARPAPERS (MUZZLES) Bumar-Łabędy, arthur Trzeciakowski, all, most hard attempts (tests) have fallen out (have should) even well < goods (right) >. Never we realized hard attempts (tests; probations) in history of plant (bet) " else so. Crossing it by tank 2100 km 20-25 this percent, that bets on its (his) whole period of exploitation, usually < ordinary > ok totaling (take away; amount to). Lat (summer; year) 25 " chairman has said to sunday -.


Tank for malaysia, by its (his) framer ordinary called " " Malajem, it is based < base (resist) > on construction of known tank " hard ", however, it has been modified on requirements of contracts importantly. It has proceeded in malaysia local attempt (test) equal, as well as remote. It commuted after pathless tracts, beaches, and also after highways. Among others, trade partners checked as it overcomes barriers and as it gives advice (council) in hard climatic conditions and local. Now attempts of (tests of) shooting remain for execution else, which (who) will proceed in poland. It is not executed attempts of (tests of; probations of) shooting in malaysia sharp ammunition "; does not have conditions for it. So, protective zone totals (take away; amount to) attempts (tests) be carry in poland 40 .km. They will be started for week and they will last to the end february more or less " it has added - Trzeciakowski.

It has underlined, that prosperous tests it in malaysia in direction of beginning of realization in (to) 2003 step contract enormous < giant > undersigned < sign (subscribe) > in last lats (summers; years) - biggest it type. He (it) forecasts supply for malaysia 64 vehicles military < military >, in (to) 48 tanks it. Remaining < remain > it cars of technical insurances (security) -, engineering tanks and bridges so called concomitant < accompany >. It has to follow (to step) year to the end. Value of contract is valued on ok. 370 Million dollars.

First three vehicles will remain in poland and they will be of service for instruction of (training of) malaysian user. They will be ready in march already. First tanks will fly (will advice) for malaysia on early april furthest. (PAP)
Roughly summarize:
According to PAP (Polish Press Agency) the second prototype of PT-91
successfully passed the terrain trials (about 2100 km) in Malaysia. The
tank came back to Poland (transported by An-124). Next part
(live firing trials once again) of trials will
start in Poland. The batch of 3 tanks would be ready nex month (they
will stay in Poland for some time and will be used for training purposes by
your's soldiers). Next batch will be sent to Malaysia in April.

Thank you our polish friend Michal Gajzler for the info.:)

[kaybee]

Remember, even if a tender has not been called it does not mean that a requirement does not exist. 4 Bde Mekanis is a testbed (and I would lump 1 Bde Amor together with it). There is no way that it will be the only unit of its type in the army.

Has the 1 bde transformation to armor started already? By planning, we're supposed to have 3 tank regiments, 2 in armoured brigade (1 bde?) and 1 in 4 bde mechanized.

[weasel1962]

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[Zzims]

Malaysian Defense Planners would buy more Twardy's? Rather see an Al-Khalid moving in a Parade. But a Twardy's is just as nice.One question seeing T-84 and Pt-91 is made from almost the same region, wouldnt it be possible for a T-84 tropical version/ Malaysian version?

[Waylander]

Give it an air condition and your done.
It already has NBC protection and so I don't see them needing much more.

As to Al-Khalid.

Why should Malaysia buy it when they already field PT-91s? This would just add more maintenance problems to their forces.

If you want to enhance AT capability invest more in ATGMs both carried by infantry and on your IFVs/APCs instead of buying additonal tanks.

This doesn't cause as much pressure to your logistic and maintenance network as well as your operational costs.

[Zzims]

Yeah that would be a logistic mess, Does Al-Khalid and Twardy share the same Platform? T-72?

[qwerty223]

Yeah that would be a logistic mess, Does Al-Khalid and Twardy share the same Platform? T-72?
Not really the same, not sure for Al-Khalid, but PT-91M is a "westernize" design of T-72. Use the base concept of T-72, but all the parts being redesign to match "western" standard.

[Waylander]

The hull is a little bit uparmored and the turret is the same like of the T-72M1 + the polish ERA modules.

They installed also a new FCS, TI, laser warning system and a fire surpression system.

But that is purely for the polish version. So it doesn't is NATO standard which is one of the reasons for us giving them Leo IIA4.

The malayan PT-91M are much more upgraded and received more and better upgrades:

- French FCS + 3rd gen TI (Savan 15)
- electric turret drive (EADS EPS 72-Albatross)
- tracks with rubber pads by Diehl
- hydrostatic automatic drive (ESM 350M)
- new gun (2A46MS)
- independent commanders optic (Vigy 15)
- SOTAS-intercom (Thales)
- RRC 9500 radio (Thales, produced under license in Poland)
- S-100R diesel engine with 1000hp

But the weak basic armor remains. And I have doubts that the ERA modules can solve the whole problem.

[isthvan]

Yeah that would be a logistic mess, Does Al-Khalid and Twardy share the same Platform? T-72?

IIRC Al-Khalid is based on Chinese type90II tank...

[eckherl]

[QUOTE=isthvan;92893]IIRC Al-Khalid is based on Chinese type90II tank...[/QUOTE

The Type 90 and Al-Khalid share a upgraded T-72 chassis.

[Waylander]

You mean T-90 and not Type 90 don't you? ;)

Type 90 would be the Japanese one which, oh wonder :D , looks very similar to a Leopard II A4.

[eckherl]

You mean T-90 and not Type 90 don't you? ;)

Type 90 would be the Japanese one which, oh wonder :D , looks very similar to a Leopard II A4.

Oh crap - with all the T and different type designations flying around between Russia and China, then japan had further complicate things using the Type designation.

[Waylander]

Yeah, they should have agreed on different signatures in the past.

Would make our lives much easier. :D

[Zzims]

The hull is a little bit uparmored and the turret is the same like of the T-72M1 + the polish ERA modules.

But the weak basic armor remains. And I have doubts that the ERA modules can solve the whole problem.

Arent the Pt's suppose to function in forested area? I doubt any other MBT with this weight class has better armour or much else Advance armour.

[qwerty223]

The hull is a little bit uparmored and the turret is the same like of the T-72M1 + the polish ERA modules.

They installed also a new FCS, TI, laser warning system and a fire surpression system.

But that is purely for the polish version. So it doesn't is NATO standard which is one of the reasons for us giving them Leo IIA4.

The malayan PT-91M are much more upgraded and received more and better upgrades:

- French FCS + 3rd gen TI (Savan 15)
- electric turret drive (EADS EPS 72-Albatross)
- tracks with rubber pads by Diehl
- hydrostatic automatic drive (ESM 350M)
- new gun (2A46MS)
- independent commanders optic (Vigy 15)
- SOTAS-intercom (Thales)
- RRC 9500 radio (Thales, produced under license in Poland)
- S-100R diesel engine with 1000hp

But the weak basic armor remains. And I have doubts that the ERA modules can solve the whole problem.
FCS part is quite confusing, some said SAVAN-20.
Not sure about armor too, but in front of modern ammunition, armor give me no confidence:unknown

[eckherl]

Arent the Pt's suppose to function in forested area? I doubt any other MBT with this weight class has better armour or much else Advance armour.

Even when comparing T-90 or T-80 to it.

T-90 weight = 46,500 kg
T-80 weight = 45,500 kg
Throw in the Ukrainian T-84 which is, under much debate the best Eastern tank has a weight of 46,000kg

All these tanks will perform just as good as the PT-91M.

[Zzims]

Even when comparing T-90 or T-80 to it.

T-90 weight = 46,500 kg
T-80 weight = 45,500 kg
Throw in the Ukrainian T-84 which is, under much debate the best Eastern tank has a weight of 46,000kg

All these tanks will perform just as good as the PT-91M.

Was there any particular reason T-84 wasnt chosen? I'm rather fond of it xD

[Waylander]

Price reasons.

As long as I know both T-90S and T-84 both performed better and even the CV90120 was in the race but finally Poland made the best offer.
And T-90 and T-84 both borke down during mobility tests with the CV90120 not participating due to technical problems.

As for protection.

The named T-90, T-80 and T-84 give you a better protection with also not much weight for a MBT.

And the key is ground pressure. The Leopard II A4 has a 9kg advantage over the PT-91 with 85kg/cm² against 94kg/cm². So even if upgraded the Leo has not more problems at soft terrain and when remaining in the A4 version it is even better suited for soft ground.

Also the power to weight ratio of the Leo is better.
I don't think that the Leo has more problems in the jungle than the PT-91.
Only some bridges can be a problem due to more overall weight.

Firepower

When I look at how german DM33 entered the turret of T-72M1 and left it at the back I would also not be very optimistic about the protection of the PT-91M against the neighbouring Leopard IIA4s.
The basic turret armor of the T-72M1 and PT-91M is the same. Even ERAWA-2 is not that effective to give it enough protection.

On the other side I would also not be that optimistic about Singapore's Leos to be able to withstand a hit of the PT-91M.

If they buy the right ammo the new 2A46MS should be able to go against the Leo's armor or at least it would be a close run.

If Singapore decides to upgrade the Leos Malaysia has a problem.

[isthvan]

You mean T-90 and not Type 90 don't you? ;)

Type 90 would be the Japanese one which, oh wonder :D , looks very similar to a Leopard II A4.

Well Chinese also use type designation so I checked on Sinodefence and it seams that I got designation right:

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type90.asp

[Waylander]

It is difficult to get infos about Chinese tanks. The question is if the Type 80 which is the predecessor of the Type 90 really has a T-72 chassis.
I thought that it has some similarities but it is not really a T-72 chassis. During the time it has bee developed the Sovjets did not export tech to China and so they had to develop one of their own. The similarities come from their already existing knowledge of russian designs.

The russian T-90 on the other hand definitely has the T-72 as base.

[isthvan]

It is difficult to get infos about Chinese tanks. The question is if the Type 80 which is the predecessor of the Type 90 really has a T-72 chassis.
I thought that it has some similarities but it is not really a T-72 chassis. During the time it has bee developed the Sovjets did not export tech to China and so they had to develop one of their own. The similarities come from their already existing knowledge of russian designs.

The russian T-90 on the other hand definitely has the T-72 as base.

AFAIK type80/88 is further development of type79(similar to t-62) with new wheel arrangement(five large road wheels were replaced with six smaller road wheels with three track rollers) and it doesn't have T-72 chassis...

[Waylander]

Ah ok, thanks. :)

[eckherl]

It is difficult to get infos about Chinese tanks. The question is if the Type 80 which is the predecessor of the Type 90 really has a T-72 chassis.
I thought that it has some similarities but it is not really a T-72 chassis. During the time it has bee developed the Sovjets did not export tech to China and so they had to develop one of their own. The similarities come from their already existing knowledge of russian designs.

The russian T-90 on the other hand definitely has the T-72 as base.

The Type 90 does have a T-72 chassis with a engine pac layout of a T-80 series, it looks like they tried to get the best of both worlds which is funny because the engine on the T-80 has always been a weak point as far as reliability issues, until Ukraine came along and offered a pretty good diesel engine pac for the T-84, which is what the Al-Khalid has.:)

[eckherl]

Price reasons.

As long as I know both T-90S and T-84 both performed better and even the CV90120 was in the race but finally Poland made the best offer.
And T-90 and T-84 both borke down during mobility tests with the CV90120 not participating due to technical problems.

As for protection.

The named T-90, T-80 and T-84 give you a better protection with also not much weight for a MBT.

And the key is ground pressure. The Leopard II A4 has a 9kg advantage over the PT-91 with 85kg/cm² against 94kg/cm². So even if upgraded the Leo has not more problems at soft terrain and when remaining in the A4 version it is even better suited for soft ground.

Also the power to weight ratio of the Leo is better.
I don't think that the Leo has more problems in the jungle than the PT-91.
Only some bridges can be a problem due to more overall weight.

Firepower

When I look at how german DM33 entered the turret of T-72M1 and left it at the back I would also not be very optimistic about the protection of the PT-91M against the neighbouring Leopard IIA4s.
The basic turret armor of the T-72M1 and PT-91M is the same. Even ERAWA-2 is not that effective to give it enough protection.

On the other side I would also not be that optimistic about Singapore's Leos to be able to withstand a hit of the PT-91M.

If they buy the right ammo the new 2A46MS should be able to go against the Leo's armor or at least it would be a close run.

If Singapore decides to upgrade the Leos Malaysia has a problem.

Well put - and yes Singapore has better options for upgrade packages in armor protection levels, PT-91M is pretty much at it`s limits due to it`s size where the LEO`s have plenty of room.

[Waylander]

Maybe Singapore should have gone the same way like Denmark did.

They bought surplus Leopard IIA4 and upgraded them directly to their A5DK version.

Maybe Singapore will do the same in the future.

As you said the PT-91M reached the limit of its upgrades while Singapore could pick what it wants out of the Leopard IIA6EX and PSO packages which are the ones of which possible customers can chose their favorite upgrades.


BTW, is training support in Poland included in the buy of the PT-91?

[eckherl]

Maybe Singapore should have gone the same way like Denmark did.

They bought surplus Leopard IIA4 and upgraded them directly to their A5DK version.

Maybe Singapore will do the same in the future.

As you said the PT-91M reached the limit of its upgrades while Singapore could pick what it wants out of the Leopard IIA6EX and PSO packages which are the ones of which possible customers can chose their favorite upgrades.


BTW, is training support in Poland included in the buy of the PT-91?

I would think that they would make training part of the package deal along with support, if the Poles don`t, you know the Ukrainians will be more than happy to lend a helping hand.

[eckherl]

Malaysian Defense Planners would buy more Twardy's? Rather see an Al-Khalid moving in a Parade. But a Twardy's is just as nice.One question seeing T-84 and Pt-91 is made from almost the same region, wouldnt it be possible for a T-84 tropical version/ Malaysian version?

Here is a few pictures of Polands iron chariot.

[qwerty223]

Maybe Singapore should have gone the same way like Denmark did.

They bought surplus Leopard IIA4 and upgraded them directly to their A5DK version.

Maybe Singapore will do the same in the future.

As you said the PT-91M reached the limit of its upgrades while Singapore could pick what it wants out of the Leopard IIA6EX and PSO packages which are the ones of which possible customers can chose their favorite upgrades.


BTW, is training support in Poland included in the buy of the PT-91?
Well according to PAP, the first batch of three, not sure if it includes the first prototype, will stay at Poland some time for training purposes.

[Waylander]

Ok, thanks. :)

[taomao]

it doesnt matter what they have , the malays dont have the guts to fight , unless they re finding the chinese in singapor or some other neighboring country

[Manfred]

Well, Toemao, that sounds pretty harsh, but I just heard something today that makes me wonder...

They have been supplying terrorists that have been blowing up Bhuddists in Thailand for years. Now they have empowered religious police to arrest or just beat-up couples that are holding hands or kissing in public (anywhere they can be seen doing it).

Not very nice people. I wonder what they are planning to do with thier armor?

[weasel1962]

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[Zzims]

I see we got another "genius" who just joined. Welcome...

Obviously.. Good way to post your first post.

Well, Toemao, that sounds pretty harsh, but I just heard something today that makes me wonder...

They have been supplying terrorists that have been blowing up Bhuddists in Thailand for years. Now they have empowered religious police to arrest or just beat-up couples that are holding hands or kissing in public (anywhere they can be seen doing it).

Not very nice people. I wonder what they are planning to do with thier armor?

Oh really? So were trying to blow up Buddhist and take over the southern Provinces. Rather a bias accusation. Malaysia has offered to mediate the peace talks between the Thai Gov and the Insurgency, which if peace prevails would benefit us greatly other then having a Civil war in Thailand.

[qwerty223]

Obviously.. Good way to post your first post.



Oh really? So were trying to blow up Buddhist and take over the southern Provinces. Rather a bias accusation. Malaysia has offered to mediate the peace talks between the Thai Gov and the Insurgency, which if peace prevails would benefit us greatly other then having a Civil war in Thailand.
No need to export la.. we have enough buddhist to blow... but NEVER heard before? :D

[Zzims]

Btw where are the Pt's going to be stationed at?

[weasel1962]

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[renjer]

If its attached to 3 Div, most likely would be Kluang.

That would be 7th Bde? Hmm ... I would rather they be assigned to 4th Bde in Kuantan.

[renjer]

Well, Toemao, that sounds pretty harsh, but I just heard something today that makes me wonder...

They have been supplying terrorists that have been blowing up Bhuddists in Thailand for years. Now they have empowered religious police to arrest or just beat-up couples that are holding hands or kissing in public (anywhere they can be seen doing it).

Not very nice people. I wonder what they are planning to do with thier armor?

Yes, like weasel said, welcome to the the thread. I think you should pay Malaysia a visit. As a tourist, of course, and not some SOF operative sent to "take out" the bad guys. Your previous posts make interesting reading.

Your experience in Malaysia would probably be similar to what captured North Korean agents felt after seeing South Korean supermarkets, shopping malls and homes. In KL, Bintang Walk and the Beach Club might interest you.

BTW, this year is Visit Malaysia Year 2007. So beware, there will be lots of events organised by the thought police to brainwash unsuspecting foreigners.

[renjer]

it doesnt matter what they have , the malays dont have the guts to fight , unless they re finding the chinese in singapor or some other neighboring country

And you based this brilliant conclusion on?

[renjer]

Has the 1 bde transformation to armor started already?

Not that I know of. But being the first unit of its type it would be a test-bed.

[renjer]

There's more than enough APCs/IFVs to convert the existing regts in 3 Div into mechanised infantry regts.

Yes.

I won't be surprised to see another MBT purchase fairly soon.

At one point, MMC Defence was supposed to some assembly(?) work at their plant in Nilai. Anyone have any updates?

[qwerty223]

That would be 7th Bde? Hmm ... I would rather they be assigned to 4th Bde in Kuantan.
Hmm... can you briefly explain why? I would love to learn from it :)

[renjer]

That would turn the 4th into a brigade of 3 maneuver units made up of 1 tank and 2 mechanized infantry battalions. Tranfer the remaining mech battalion into the 1st. Mechanized 1 infantry battalion from the 1st and raise another tank battalion for this brigade. A "fast" method to have 2 mech brigades.

[Zzims]

I dont want to be a party pooper, Its great that Malaysia is getting MBT's to strengthen our Land forces. But it seems were sacrificing tank "ability" for tank "reliablity". ?_?

[Waylander]

Why?
Could you explain this? :)

[weasel1962]

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[Zzims]

Why?
Could you explain this? :)

From what the review among other Tanks tested, Some have better Armour suxh as T-84, LeClerc and such.

[Awang se]

it doesnt matter what they have , the malays dont have the guts to fight , unless they re finding the chinese in singapor or some other neighboring country

This is a rather "racial" type of comment. I wonder why the mods let this one be. to provide a similar racial type of answer, we malays are not an agressive type. but that doesn't mean we're timid. history have shown that we malays always rise up when the occasion calles. i don't know if you all ever heard of the battle in Sungai Manik and in Batu Pahat during the post japanese occupation period. it's a battle between a malays and a communist influenced chinese.

Well, Toemao, that sounds pretty harsh, but I just heard something today that makes me wonder...

They have been supplying terrorists that have been blowing up Bhuddists in Thailand for years. Now they have empowered religious police to arrest or just beat-up couples that are holding hands or kissing in public (anywhere they can be seen doing it).

The allegations goes without proper proof. even if you know for certain that malaysia did supply the explosives, you still need to present a proper proof. i should say that it's just thailand's way to cover their incompetencies by pointing at others.

Not very nice people. I wonder what they are planning to do with thier armor?

I should ask that question to the Thais. they've been invading malay states for ages. Pattani was a malay state, and there's still former kedah territory never given back after the siam ended their occupation of Kedah. compare to what the thai have, malaysian inventory are mediocare by comparison.

[Waylander]

I think the price was the problem.

You might have purchased state of the art equipment but you would have not been able to get the same numbers.

And you still get a good tank.

Only the armor could be a problem in the future as the Leopards you are facing have an option to upgrade their armor the PTs have not.

The rest of the euqipment of the PT-91M is good, especially compared to the original PT-91.

[eckherl]

From what the review among other Tanks tested, Some have better Armour suxh as T-84, LeClerc and such.

What would the average tank engagement range be that they would be required to fight in, also what other type of armor would it have to go against in this regoin of the world besides LEO 2 A4`s.

[renjer]

But that would mean that the organic arm bde would not materialise (since arm is organised at bde level)....Also, you're gonna end up with 3 excess regts with no idea what to do with. Kluang makes sense because of the location.

However, I wouldn't discount entirely that armour could be concentrated at the Batu 10 camp in Kuantan.

I see your point. However, I don't feel it necessary that the army has to have an organic armoured brigade. Mechanized brigades with an organic armoured battalion would suffice. Just my 2 cents. For the 3rd Div, not counting augmentation by the AW, I would organize around 2 mechanized and 1 infantry brigades. I would deploy the 2 mechs on each coast south of Gemas. The inf brigade I would train to fight in small killer-hunter and spotter teams to create a deep screen ahead of the 2 mechs. Hence, I would prefer the Kluang-based 7th(?) to remain as a leg infantry unit.

[renjer]

What would the average tank engagement range be that they would be required to fight in, also what other type of armor would it have to go against in this regoin of the world besides LEO 2 A4`s.

To the north, American-built M-48s and M-60s. Some Chinese built stuff as well. Further south, British-built Scorpions, Saladins, French-built AMX-10 and Russian-built PT-76s. To the east, mostly wheeled vehicles. V-150s and Simbas.

[renjer]

Only the armor could be a problem in the future as the Leopards you are facing have an option to upgrade their armor the PTs have not.

Waylander, you are obviously very knowledgble in these matters. Perhaps you will be able to offer some insights. How would you rate the T-21 turret that Giat (and now DMD, I guess) offered as part of a possible improvement package for the T-72 line of tanks? Never mind the difference in the main gun. Thanks.

[Waylander]

In the end I don't see a real benefit in purchasing such a turret.

The T-21 weighs some tons less than the Leclerc turret and so don't offers the same level of protection.

And with the upgrades done to the electronics of the PT-91M I don't see a real advantage because the PT-91M already has a good electronics package.

The only thing I would consider as an advantage is the gun.

With the french L/52 you are able to fire DM43/53/63 which gives you better penetration performance than the current gun of the PT-91M.

And this could be important if Singapore decides to upgrade the Leos at least up to A5 standard.

[renjer]

I dont want to be a party pooper, Its great that Malaysia is getting MBT's to strengthen our Land forces. But it seems were sacrificing tank "ability" for tank "reliablity". ?_?

You are referring to security of supply? If so, don't underestimate this as a factor in securing victory. Remember, winning an engagement or battle doesn't guarantee you will win the war. AFAIK, the Werhmarcht had technologically superior equipment to the Red Army but that didn't stop the Army Group Centre from collapsing.

[renjer]

In the end I don't see a real benefit in purchasing such a turret.

The T-21 weighs some tons less than the Leclerc turret and so don't offers the same level of protection.

And with the upgrades done to the electronics of the PT-91M I don't see a real advantage because the PT-91M already has a good electronics package.

The only thing I would consider as an advantage is the gun.

With the french L/52 you are able to fire DM43/53/63 which gives you better penetration performance than the current gun of the PT-91M.

And this could be important if Singapore decides to upgrade the Leos at least up to A5 standard.

Thank you.

[eckherl]

To the north, American-built M-48s and M-60s. Some Chinese built stuff as well. Further south, British-built Scorpions, Saladins, French-built AMX-10 and Russian-built PT-76s. To the east, mostly wheeled vehicles. V-150s and Simbas.

Then the PT91M will serve you well, the LEO2A4 is a good tank, but the Twardy can defeat it with proper ammunition and range.

[Zzims]

You are referring to security of supply? If so, don't underestimate this as a factor in securing victory. Remember, winning an engagement or battle doesn't guarantee you will win the war. AFAIK, the Werhmarcht had technologically superior equipment to the Red Army but that didn't stop the Army Group Centre from collapsing.

Totally forgot about WW2 German tank battles against the Soviet T-34's. Does the factor of Open field battle and forested fielding have any effect on the outcome of tank battles?

[Waylander]

You have to rely much more on mech inf with tanks being pressed more into a supporting role.

So your way of building up mech inf brigades with one tank and two mech inf btns is normal.

The fighting distance shrinks and heavy vegetation favors the defense more.
It is not that easy to build up strong points which enables even smaller forces to hould ground against larger opponents but also makes it harder for mobile reserves to reinforce weak points fast and mechanized counterassaults are also limited.

Engagements are also longer than for example a clash of tank units in open terrain which tend to be very fast.

Even in our limited vegetation (Compared to yours) defending tanks and IFVs were able to find hidden and protected positions which enabled them to wait for the enemy to close in to several hundred meters making the first fire volley a really nasty surprise for the attacker.

[kaybee]

There's more than enough APCs/IFVs to convert the existing regts in 3 Div into mechanised infantry regts.

I think the combined arms div will probably be a 1 arm bde + 3 mech inf bde formation.

What'll probably happen is that new MBTs will probably be formed into new KADs (& replace the allocated KAD for 3 Div). Once there are 3 tank KADs, a new arm bde will probably be formed and attached to the div.

I won't be surprised to see another MBT purchase fairly soon.
From my earlier understanding, the armored brigade would consist of 2 tank reg + 1 mech inf batt while future mech inf bde would consist of 2 mech batt + 1 tank reg. The combined arm div would consist of 1 armor bde + 1 mech inf bde + 1 motorised inf bde.

[kaybee]

That would be 7th Bde? Hmm ... I would rather they be assigned to 4th Bde in Kuantan.
3 Div consists of 1 bde + 4 mech bde + 7 bde. The tank home base is in Kem Syed Sirajuddin in Gemas. I would say that is closer to 1 bde than 7 bde in Kluang.

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[buglerbilly]

that the country adopted a prudent and balanced approach when it came to spending.


Apart from the Airforce...........having so many types in so few numbers per type cannot be economical nor efficient. If Malaysia procures Super Hornets then this just becomes worse............

[qwerty223]

Apart from the Airforce...........having so many types in so few numbers per type cannot be economical nor efficient. If Malaysia procures Super Hornets then this just becomes worse............
Air force suppose to compromise a complex of assets, and unique individually.
anyways, we'll see.

[renjer]

Air force suppose to compromise a complex of assets, and unique individually.
anyways, we'll see.

Not in such small numbers. I agree with buglerbilly on this.

[renjer]

Article in Tempur magazine says the Ministry of Finance has approved the negotiation for a further order of ASTROS II to equip an additional MRLS regiment for the army. Expected delivery date to be 2009.

The article also mentions a requirement to re-equip 2 existing tube artillery regiments with a wheeled SP system of the 155/52 class. Candidates include the Ceaser from France and the T5/52 from South Africa.

[weasel1962]

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[DavidDCM]

Nothing announced by now.

I mean, 4 month isn't that much. Last year in spring they tested those 3 APCs for 6 weeks. Still nothing new about that one, too...

But by the way. It somehow is a strange compilation of candidates. Ingwe and Kornet are Long Range (up to 5 Km) and therefore of the same class as Bakthar Shikan, which is already in service, whereas Metis-M is only a medium range ATGM (up to 1,5 Km).

Which ATGMs does Malaysia already have in service? I know of Eryx as Short Range man-portable ATGM and Bakthar Shikan as IFV-mounted Long Range ATGM. Anything else by now?
In addition lots of unguided AT-weapons, Carl Gustav, RPG-7, C90-CR (M3)....

Quite confusing all this stuff. It's never cost-effective to use different systems for similar tasks.

[weasel1962]

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