Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey.

[Soner1980]

Undersecretariat for Defense industries website announced that Pakistan will join Turkish MBT project to develop state of the art Turkish Battle Tank.

After Otokar, FNSS, MKEK, ASELSAN and HAVELSAN, the Pakistani firm producing the Al Khalid MBT will transfer the technological support for the production of advanced passive armor.

The Al Khalid, known for it's unique feature of automatic target tracking system used by the Tank is from the French MBT Leclerc. No other tanks have this feature. I also know that about 100 delegation large, Turkish engineers, politicians and businessmen traveled to Pakistan to discuss about defensive cooperation.

It is clear that Turkey would develop it's MBT with Pakistani assistance.

[SABRE]

Turkish defence officials have visited Pakistan in past few months & also the vice versa, I thought they were discussing small weapons guns, rockets, launchers etc. But this is some what bigger than that.

Anyways, do u have link to the news? also do u have details on next Generation Turkish tank? what are Turkies requirement? etc .

[DoC_FouALieR]

I remember a project presented by GIAT industries (the manufacturer of the Leclerc MBT) for the next Turkish MBT.
It was basically a Leclerc with a lot of enhancements like full 360° protection against RPG type projectile (with full composite armoured side skirts), an electronic warfare suite with laser detector and jammers, and a remote weapon station.
This tank was likely to be build in Turkey with the cooperation of GIAT by I don't know the current status of the programm.

[Skywalker]

I read also rumors in some other Forums that Pakistan sell Cruise-Missile Know-How to Turkey.

[Big-E]

Why doesn't Turkey just buy production rights to the Al-Khalid? She's a match for the Leopard 2, probably better than something Turkey is going to come up with.

[Soner1980]

About the offer from GIAT, yes European firms are very serious, no jokes but the damn EU politicians don't want to do good for us. First the worst of it: The so called Armenian Genocide (what has never hapened) and the Cyprus thing.

If France want that Turkey do for a 'big' business, than France must be in the same way with Turkish politics or else there will be a breakdown in the production line and Turkey changes to another product like the French ATGM Eryx wich has been cancelled and Turkey is now looking to built indigenous variant.

Till then, Turkey bewares of to buy (or to do business) something from EU countries and besides European high quality products, Turkey chooses to buy or manufacture weapons and use to all threats like the EU supported PKK/KONGRA-GEL and the DHKP-C terrorists. EU countries banned to use EU origin weapons to guerilla's. (because the rebels are the pions of EU imperialism I think, we shall use weapons with EU origin against EU in case of a war...)

The EuroCopter lobbied for Turkey to slam the law article that calling the Armenian Genocide does not exist, brings you to a penalty of some 40.000 euro and 1 year jail. Damned. Therefore the ATAK (Turkish Gunship project) to co-produce 90 gunships has been postponed. I think Turkey chooses the Italian Mangusta or the Rooivalk (translated from NL = Red Valk or Falcon??) Because the big offer from Eurocopter for the jointly manufacture of the Tigre.

About the Pakistani arms dealers & technicians, yes there was told that it was only small arms. :D to camoflage the project and therefore Turkey also produces rifles, howitsers and rockets. Vice versa to Pakistan. For both countries producing small arms is like buying candy in the shop. But building MBT's armor is a very new technology to Turkey. Turkey does not exist of the Technology to built composite armor. Even Pakistan has aquired composite armor plating in the mid 1990's when the tank plant in Taxila. The Pakistani's got the Type-85 from China and have made big advances like composite armor plating, thermal sights, auto loader, 125mm gun, etc.. The Al Khalid is far better than the original Type-85II now (The First was also called Type-85IIAP). US$20 million were reportedly spent on the indigenous development of the Al-Khalid tanks over a period of eight years. Heavy Industries Taxila started production of Al-Khalid in November 2000.

The technology to produce MBT is also 'fresh' in Pakistani technicians' brains. So, like 1990's guided 227mm MLRS rocket transfer (for the M270 MLRS), this time is to transfer bigger technologies to Turkey, and Turkey also want to transfer tech to Pakistan. Pakistan has been a close ally, often called brothers because the Turkish Air Forces help in 1971 in the Indo-Pakistani war.

Eneough today, let's wait for your reply now...

[Soner1980]

Maybe it will happen, but with NATO standard version in Turkish hands...

Why doesn't Turkey just buy production rights to the Al-Khalid? She's a match for the Leopard 2, probably better than something Turkey is going to come up with.

[SABRE]

About the Pakistani arms dealers & technicians, yes there was told that it was only small arms. to camoflage the project and therefore Turkey also produces rifles, howitsers and rockets. Vice versa to Pakistan. For both countries producing small arms is like buying candy in the shop.

I dont think Pakistan hides/camoflage technology it already has officially displayed. It has been shown in past three IDEAS. Keeping it open would also help in the export department.

Perhaps the Turkey dint want to spread the news till an agreement was reached.


The Pakistani's got the Type-85 from China and have made big advances like composite armor plating, thermal sights, auto loader, 125mm gun, etc.. The Al Khalid is far better than the original Type-85II now (The First was also called Type-85IIAP)

Little correction. It was Type-90II not Type-85II. I think you are confusing ur self with T-80ud & T-84 Pakistan bought from Ukrain.

Pakistan wanted to start building tank from the start. But the helping partner China said it would take long time to go through the process & by than India would be done with Arjun. Instead they said to take an already developed tank "as a base" & build on it & put it through the evolution process in a way that the other tank is removed from the base. China had developed T-90 & T-90II but they were not satisfied with it & starting working on T-98. However, Pakistan choose left out T-90II as a base.

The T-90II also had an issue with engine. Its engine did not satisfiy the Pakistan army in desertic conditions. But an unllikely country decided to join hand. Ukrain sold their diesel engines which were designed to perform in desert & hot conditions.

Today the T-90II is almost gone from the base.

The first batch of Al-Khalid was of basic version. These were known as Phase-3 tanks. But the ones built from 2002 & on wards are Phase-4 tanks with all the high-tech equipement.

[BilalK]

Also do not forget that now Pakistan is gearing towards development of the Al Khalid II program; the new tank will be based off the Al Khalid, but will on the level of the Chinese T-98/99. The 'Al Khalid II' will form the mainstay of the Pakistan Army from 2012 - it is possible that this is the tank Pakistan and Turkey may be developing together, for both nations.

Turkish-Pakistan relations will definitely increase over time.

[SABRE]

Also do not forget that now Pakistan is gearing towards development of the Al Khalid II program; the new tank will be based off the Al Khalid, but will on the level of the Chinese T-98/99. The 'Al Khalid II' will form the mainstay of the Pakistan Army from 2012 - it is possible that this is the tank Pakistan and Turkey may be developing together, for both nations.

Turkish-Pakistan relations will definitely increase over time.

I think the Al-Khalid II is the Phase-4 version (already in production & induction) for which Pakistan has developed new avionics & also bought technology from French & Germans (no official confirmation on this though)

[BilalK]

I think the Al-Khalid II is the Phase-4 version (already in production & induction) for which Pakistan has developed new avionics & also bought technology from French & Germans (no official confirmation on this though)
From what I've been told the Al Khalid II will be in production sometime in 2009 and be inducted in large numbers from 2012. I've heard that it will be in the league of T-98/99 and use German, French and newer Chinese technology. It will be the mainstay of the Pakistan Army for years to come. This is not official information though, but I got it from a well informed defence analyist who works closely with the gov't.

However basic point is, the Al Khalid II will be many folds better than the current Al Khalid; in fact the project name is Al Khalid II - the actual name of the tank is likely to be different. IMO Pakistan and Turkey could be developing a new state of the art tank - which to Pakistan will be Al Khalid II.

Should also add, a lot of Pakistan's requirements are startingly similar to those of Turkey's; requirement of new advanced attack helicopters, new transport helicopters, APCs, artillery, aircraft, etc.

[beleg]

I'd like to add a few comments of my own to this thread,

We all know because of political and economical reasons the first Tank tender had failed in 2000, despite the fact that Leopard 2 had won the competition.

Meanwhile Turkey started 2 simultaneous projects,

*Modernisation of M-60s by Israel to similar configuration of M-60 Sabra
*Modernisation of Leo1A1s with advanced FCS but same body.

The first deal with Israel also brought the technology of 120mm smoothbore gun and the Knight fire control system. Meanwhile Aselsan was developing its own fire control system named Eagleeye.

After these projects started and Leo2A4s acquired as stop gaps Turkey decided to go on with a nationalised tank project with technical aissistance from a foreign company. although the local company to build the tanks are still not selected, technical support and assistance will be sought from

* Agency for Defence Development [S. Korea],
* GIAT Industries [France],
* Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH & Co. KG [Germany], and
* Rheinmetall LandSysteme GmbH [Germany].

So we can clearly expect the tank to have European features ,not Russian or Chinese or Pakistani. The tank most likely will have the same gun whose tech was bought during Sabra modernisation, MTU&Renk or similar power pack to reduce logistical problems, a new generation Aselsan Fire control system and other Aselsan electronics (with netcentric warware capability) based on Aselsans own knowledge and know how gained by Knight tech transfer.

The main problem in a Turkish tank design would be acquiring state of the art armor technology.Thus it is always a possiblity that only an armor transfer is possible and necessary. Such transfer from Pakistan could give the project a kick start that it needs, since R&D ing a proper armor would take decades.

The recent issue of S&H stated that Pakistani officials were interested in the Aselsan electronics and FCS for their Al Khalids and a deal could be soon signed to provide the systems to Pakistan. Perhaps there were talks about exchanging such technologies.

We have to wait for a while longer to see the path of this project..

[Soner1980]

I am with your opinion Beleg.

The Savunma Sanayi Müstesarligi (Defense Secretariat of Turkey) announced it from the news agencies (look http://gbulten.ssm.gov.tr/arsiv/2006/06/19/gun.htm in Turkish) and I have understand that the armor technology would be supplied by Pakistan. That Turkey will join the Al Khalid II project, yes it is possible or else Turkey is able to design it's own, only the armor tech is missing in 'Tech. inventory' of Turkey to produce a main battle tank.

Like Beleg wrote, Turkey is now been transfered by our strategic partner Israel for a new 120mm smoothbore compact tank gun that has almost the penetrating capability with the M256 120mm SB TG, but with the capability to fire the LAser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile.

And ofcource, the project is aimed for after 2010 mass production to get rid of the obsolete nearly 3000 M48A5T1/T2. The M60 series will be upgraded to the Sabra Mk.2 equivelant with minor differences, Leo-1A1A1 to the Leo-1 Volkan.

Turkey has the electronic technology and the hull building plant. After the composite armor plating technology transfer and initial production of the TR MBT project, year 2012, we Turks, want to see our first National MBT and Long range missiles on 30 august and 29 october Military parades with flying Turkish JSF over the parade terrain, and new Turkish built (ATAK project) gunships to show what we can...:D

[tphuang]

Also do not forget that now Pakistan is gearing towards development of the Al Khalid II program; the new tank will be based off the Al Khalid, but will on the level of the Chinese T-98/99. The 'Al Khalid II' will form the mainstay of the Pakistan Army from 2012 - it is possible that this is the tank Pakistan and Turkey may be developing together, for both nations.

Turkish-Pakistan relations will definitely increase over time.
at the level of T-98/99? Do the developers know the capabilities of T-98/99? You should visit the SDF's T-99 thread, we have someone who claims to work close to the project. I didn't get an idea of how much money China spent developing some of the components on T-99 until reading what he wrote. I doubt Pakistan has the same development capability or the financial backing.

[Soner1980]

at the level of T-98/99? Do the developers know the capabilities of T-98/99? You should visit the SDF's T-99 thread, we have someone who claims to work close to the project. I didn't get an idea of how much money China spent developing some of the components on T-99 until reading what he wrote. I doubt Pakistan has the same development capability or the financial backing.

I think Pakistan have transfered tech from European countries like France or Germany, sure they will, maybe better than Type-98G because China has an arms embargo and must find out by it self.

China's Type-98 or the Type-98G/99 is a very good tank that can match the M1A2 abrams in combat capability, only the survival ratio when armor is penetrated is very low (engine compartiment especially and the fuel depot), but also this will be worked out by the time I think. You can built a tank in 3 month, but training highly experienced tank crews can take years...

[Big-E]

China's Type-98 or the Type-98G/99 is a very good tank that can match the M1A2 abrams in combat capability,

:confused: A match for the M1A1 maybe... :confused:

[fightermki]

type98/99 tanks built by china are based on t-72 source sinodefence.com

its known fact that pak tanks are based on chinese tech <globalsecurity.com> so how u say its a match for m1 class of tanks dont be over optimistic., leopard2 is one of the best tank on planet now.
moreover pak tanks are not battle tested weighing just 45t shows the armour of al khalid. if it was that al khalid style tanks can have kills on m1 then pak doesnot need t80's . hope usa asks pakistan 2 give al khalid rifled gun's technology 2 them coz it can go through chobam armour of m1.
just do some research before making comments on ultra maordern weapon systems like leopard

[Soner1980]

T-72? Yes, so what? Only the basis is a T-72. But the systems on it are all different and more advanced. For example: The Al Khalid has a thermal viewer, the T-72 not. The Al Khalid has a computerized system to 'lock-on' to the target (French Technique for capability). The T-72 is far behind by today's standards in technology.

The hull is a look a like, or better called a longer version of the original T-72 hull.

The Turret is also brand new. So, this is enough to 'repel' your story about '...the same like a T-72'.

And meaning that the Al Khalid is slightly superior to the US M1A1 and very close to the M1A2, but far of the M1A2 SEP because of more modern electronics. The whole US army does not have a lot of SEP variant I have read somewere but most of them are M1A1, or upgraded to M1A2, and a very little portion of them are with the Special Enhencements Package.

Still, the M1A1 is a formidable MBT in the field, but it is far behind to the German counterpart: Leopard-2A5

[SABRE]

Again a mistake made above...It was T-90I that is in the league of T-72. Not the T-98/99 series. The T-98/99 are in the league of T-90 Russians Tanks. The T-90II Chinese was taken as a base not as a whole tank. It has significantly been modified, uograded & mordernized by HIT since the Al-Khalid development. According to HIT officials by 2010 very little of original T-90II would be left in Al-Khalid. Al-Khalid's Phase-3 version's current capability are similar to that of T-90 (Russian) while Phase-4 (with Pakistani, Chinese, French & German technology) is more advance thena Russian T-90. (Note: Saudis are interested in buying Al-Khalid Phase-4 as well).


Pakistan bought T-80ud & T-84 because there was hurrdle in the development of Al-Khalid & Pakistan seriously needed new Tanks in late 1980s & early 1990s. Al-Khalid was facing engine problems but that was solved when Ukrain joined the hands. They sold the Diesel engine for Al-Khalid but it would have still taken some time for it to be inducted. Hence Pakistan bought T-80ud & T-84 from Ukrain.
Al-Khalid's capabilities are way more than T-80 series.

[Soner1980]

The Phase 4 of the Al Khalid can match the Type-98G type as well I think because of the Euro technologies.

But about the armor of the Pakistani MBT, what type of composite will it be? Laminate armor like in the Leo-2A4 is not composite don't put that in 'the soup' plz.

I have seen very interesting and strange things on TRT (Turkish TV channel) when the BOREN firm has shown hardened steel with Bor or Borax element. (66% of Bor is located in Turkish soil) and with borax, you can make steel more resistent and stronger. Wood less flamamble. New armor plate? Maybe with composite, but how it will be it's not clear. The US is also experimenting wich has 13% of borax mines in US terriories and it has a ban to exploit it and pressures Turkey also to not to exploit it. It is also a new type of energy. The Brittish is experiencing with electro armor or something ???

Gentlemen, again, what type of composite is the armor of the Al Khalid? Please your answer...

[SABRE]

Soner1980; Only thing I found out is that its a modular armour, But "what type" is hard to find.

[Bfn42]

type98/99 tanks built by china are based on t-72 source sinodefence.com

hope usa asks pakistan 2 give al khalid rifled gun's technology 2 them coz it can go through chobam armour of m1.




What in the world are you talking about? USA asking Pakistan for "rifled gun technology"? That's like Lockheed Martin asking sesna for stealth technology. Also, anybody got any idea how good the Al Kahid(sp?) armour levels are?

[BilalK]

What in the world are you talking about? USA asking Pakistan for "rifled gun technology"? That's like Lockheed Martin asking sesna for stealth technology.
I think he meant that U.S should ask Pakistan to buy American rifled guns for the Al Khalid.

[Soner1980]

Why Rifled? The Smoothbore has pushed the rifled tank guns aside when the Russian 2A46 125mm SB Tank gun was introduced in the 1960's with Hyper Velocity. Later the German Rheinmetall has also (taken over the technology) designed a smoothbore tank gun, the 120mm on the Leopard-2 and in licenced production in the USA known as the M256.

The M256 was first used on the M1A1 and is far more accurate and had more penetrating capability till the Russians had designed more modern APFSDS rounds. Today, the 125mm SB gun is also deadly as the German/US counterpart 120mm SB gun.

By the way, why should Pakistan change to a rifled tank gun and get rid of the 125mm SB? The 2A46 based Chinese version is not further developed. I mean, when the gun is cleaned out of 'faults' the 125mm tank gun can also have the same accuracy as the 120mm M256. The penetrating capability is almost the same I think. See http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm for Projectiles armor protection. I don't know of it's authenticity but it is believeable information.

[Soner1980]

Soner1980; Only thing I found out is that its a modular armour, But "what type" is hard to find.

The Al Khalid has modular composite armor plating. Replaceable when newer tech has been discovered and also when it needs replacement after a battle.

Composite armor is not simple like some think. Composite armor has many different types:

Chobham Armor 1st,2nd & 3rd phase, latter with DU plating. (also known as Burlington)
Combination K (the most widespread version from T-64 with glass reinforced plastic)
Multi layer composite - Boron carbide, titanium-di-carbide sandwiched between steel and maybe space with air.But most of the people think that perforated armor is also composite armor. No, No, No! Perforated armor (in the Leopard-1A3 and Leopard-2A0-A4) has laminate steel with perforated armor plates (steel) filled with foam. When hit, the foam increases in size so it pulls the HEAT round back like Reactive. But the first composite armor was only very effective against HEAT and lesser to APFSDS round. Today, the Chobham armor plating technology is in it's 3rd phase of production. This type is only used in the M1A2 SEP and the Challenger 2E wich is able to counter APFSDS round effectively.

I'm not sure but the Al Khalid also uses Kombination K but the more advanced version of it: With boron carbide instead of glass reinfoced plastic.

[isthvan]

Well I must admit that I find this discussion about Al-Khalid weary interesting... I mean here we have upgraded copy of Chinese designed tank(which lost in competition whit type99 for new PLA tank) whit engine from Ukraine and whit French FCS and some people is talking like it is most advanced tank in the world...

If Turkey buy Al Khalid they will get unproven 45t tank that has all design flaws from T-72 series, unstandardized main gun(IIRC 120mm is still NATO caliber) and inferior armor... IF they want tank in that weight class they would be better if they look at GIAT T-21 turret project on body of Ukraine T-80 tank or Israeli Merkava...
But thats joust my opinion...

[Wild Weasel]

I agree with isthvan. With Turkey's close defense relationship with Israel, the Merkava seems like a much better choice. It's a proven design, with a world-class saftey record, and technological innovation.
But I don't know if the Merkava has ever been offered for export?

[adsH]

What in the world are you talking about? USA asking Pakistan for "rifled gun technology"? That's like Lockheed Martin asking sesna for stealth technology. Also, anybody got any idea how good the Al Kahid(sp?) armour levels are?


You don't have to Insult people to bring your point across, Watch it!!

[orko_8]

I agree with isthvan. With Turkey's close defense relationship with Israel, the Merkava seems like a much better choice. It's a proven design, with a world-class saftey record, and technological innovation.
But I don't know if the Merkava has ever been offered for export?

Merkava IV is not offered for export, although some non-critical technologies are used in Sabra upgrade package, as far as I know. Besides, completely designed for solely IDF's own operational needs, Merkava series do not 100% fit into other armies' technical requirements.

[adsH]

The Brittish is experiencing with electro armor or something ???


Yeup there are three types of liquid armours i'm aware of, one is when a impact is detected the Circuit send out an electronic impulse near the Impact location hardening the material in the location. (this is UK solution)

The other material developed again the uk is a chemical that resists any object its stays liquid but when you put a an object in it it surprisingly exzherts tremendous pressure to resist.

The third is an American solution developed by Norman Wagner at the University of Delaware and Eric Wetzel at the US Army Research Lab in Aberdeen, they developed a liquid - called shear thickening fluid whcich is actually a mixture of hard nanoparticles and nonevaporating liquid. It flows normally under low-energy conditions, but when agitated or hit with an impact it stiffens and behaves like a solid. This temporary stiffening occurs less than a millisecond after impact, and is caused by the nanoparticles forming tiny clusters inside the fluid. "The particles jam up forming a log jam structure that prevents things from penetrating through them.

I still reckon the british solution is allot more mature, but the American solution looks more practical since i'm slightly bias towards Nano tech!

[adsH]

Merkava IV is not offered for export, although some non-critical technologies are used in Sabra upgrade package, as far as I know. Besides, completely designed for solely IDF's own operational needs, Merkava series do not 100% fit into other armies' technical requirements.

isn't markava primarily designed for policing operations for urbun combat. Not sure how it would perform in actual MBT engagements!

Any thoughts

[Wild Weasel]

isn't markava primarily designed for policing operations for urbun combat. Not sure how it would perform in actual MBT engagements!

Any thoughts

Well, as far as I can tell, the Merkava's were originally designed for tank-on-tank combat in open terrain just like most other MBT's.
The newest design, the Mk.IV, has had major upgrades built in to the design that allows it to function in MOUT combat, whilst retaining it's already-excellent anti-MBT qualities.
It has a list of innovations that make it well suited as a tank destroyer.
These include:
1. An advanced, laser-ranging FCS, with thermal, and EO modes, and a fully-stabilized turret/main gun. The tank is network-ready, and compatible with the American computerized battle-management sytem.
2. A digital, ten-round auto-loader, with 48-round shell capacity. The ammo storage is fully shielded, and seperate from the crew compartment.
3. The full range of full-caliber ammunition, including the LAHAT guided ATGM.
4. An advanced and highly effective modular armor, and computer-enhanced 360 degree protection from ATGMs, and RPGs.
5. The unique design provides for greater protection of the crew, by locating the powerpack to the front of the tank. This enables the tank to absorb more damage than other tanks, and possibly even retain mobility after being hit. The crew compartment is over-pressurized, NBC-protected, with AC and heating. Additionally, each crew station has individual climate controls. Due to the large turret, the crew compartment seems to be quite spacious, increasing the crew's comfort during long-duration operations.
6. The powerpack is a 1500hp American-made diesel, optimized for desert climates. It provides excellent fuel economy, and mobility comparable with any other tank in it's weight class, in all terrain conditions.
7. The internal compartment in the rear allows the tank to carry up to eight infantrymen, a command element, or three litters for emergency transport.
It also provides the four-man crew with an additional escape hatch, if they must escape from the tank. Additionally, this compartment can be used to store extra fuel and ammunition for high-endurance operations.

There is no question as to whether or not the Merkava is perfectly suited as an MBT in any role. The real questions seem to be: Will Israel allow it to be exported, and how many can a country afford to buy?

[Bfn42]

You don't have to Insult people to bring your point across, Watch it!!



Insulting? Oh, i'm sorry, I didn't know analogies could be so offensive seriously come on now, I wasn't personally attacking who he was or where he came from.



"
By the way, why should Pakistan change to a rifled tank gun and get rid of the 125mm SB? The 2A46 based Chinese version is not further developed. I mean, when the gun is cleaned out of 'faults' the 125mm tank gun can also have the same accuracy as the 120mm M256. The penetrating capability is almost the same I think. See http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mac...enetration.htm for Projectiles armor protection. I don't know of it's authenticity but it is believeable information."




Sonner, being that most, if not all tank/round armor penetration and armor protection levels are "classified" I doubt it's too accurate.

[Soner1980]

Well I must admit that I find this discussion about Al-Khalid weary interesting... I mean here we have upgraded copy of Chinese designed tank(which lost in competition whit type99 for new PLA tank) whit engine from Ukraine and whit French FCS and some people is talking like it is most advanced tank in the world...

If Turkey buy Al Khalid they will get unproven 45t tank that has all design flaws from T-72 series, unstandardized main gun(IIRC 120mm is still NATO caliber) and inferior armor... IF they want tank in that weight class they would be better if they look at GIAT T-21 turret project on body of Ukraine T-80 tank or Israeli Merkava...
But thats joust my opinion...

Turkey is not going to buy or co-produce the Al Khalid. But only want to buy the composite armor plating technology to design and manufacture a domestic MBT in Turkey.

That will not a T-80, nor Leopard-2A6 and surely not the Merkava mk.4

The Leopard-2A4 is only to close the gap till 2012 when the first batch MBT's will roll from the industry.

Turkey has everything to produce a locally designed tank. Really everything. Turkey has developed the Volkan fire control system for the Leo-1 to upgrade to today's standards (3rd generation). Getting the Knight III FCS transfered by IMI, the Compact Tank Gun 120mm Smoothbore system, plant to produce large and heavy vehicles, electronics, etc..

The lack of composite armor plating technology makes it unable to produce a good armored MBT. The all remaining tanks in Turkish inventory will be upgraded (especially the M60 and Leopard-1 series) with the gained technology. The 3000 M48 series tanks will be all scrapped or converted to other type of vehicles (e.g. ARV, AA-Tank, Hauler, Heavy armored APC, etc.)

Some of the M48A5T2 can also be upgunned with the 120mm SB CTG and passive armor plates. But the Turkish Army will decide. We will see...

[Soner1980]

Insulting? Oh, i'm sorry, I didn't know analogies could be so offensive seriously come on now, I wasn't personally attacking who he was or where he came from.



"
By the way, why should Pakistan change to a rifled tank gun and get rid of the 125mm SB? The 2A46 based Chinese version is not further developed. I mean, when the gun is cleaned out of 'faults' the 125mm tank gun can also have the same accuracy as the 120mm M256. The penetrating capability is almost the same I think. See http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mac...enetration.htm for Projectiles armor protection. I don't know of it's authenticity but it is believeable information."




Sonner, being that most, if not all tank/round armor penetration and armor protection levels are "classified" I doubt it's too accurate.

No it is just some estimations. Most tanks are all classified and the armor thickness is not 'sold' on the street. But somethimes it will 'leak' or in conflicts it will come arise. In the Gulf war, we all see what your countries Abrams did on the field with Iraqi T-72 and the Chinese Type-59 and Type-69 tanks. It was realy shooting on wooded mock-up tanks and at 3000 meters destroying a T-72 wich was still modern in the early 1990's. The T-72's armor is classified, but it is estimated that the thickness is known. Some said 280mm RHA and some 450mm RHA without ERA on it. I also doubt it because when all this is known, than Russia has to scrap it's T-90 fleet. I use it for estimation purposes only.

The Gulf War was clear that the 120mm SB gun was enough to destroy everage quality tanks in far ranges.

[orko_8]

The Gulf War was clear that the 120mm SB gun was enough to destroy everage quality tanks in far ranges.

...and even 105mm with APFSDS-T on most occasions, as USMC M60's proved on Iraqi T-62/72's.

[Waylander]

Shooting with old 125mm guns with loaded with poor BM-9 ammo at M1A1s is not what I would call the ultimate armor test.
Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. Saying that any T-Series tank is crap because of the bad behaviour of T-72M export models is also not very realistic.
I also don't understand the hype about the Al-Khalid. For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons) and had some, now solved, problems during its introduction.
On the other side the Al-Khalid (Developed by a country which is NOT as advanced and experienced as the western armor building countrys) shall now be the king if the hill with its 46 tons. :rolleyes:
It may fit well into the circumstances of pak landscape and style of fighting but it is for sure not the master machine like it is called here so often.

I also don't like rifled guns for MBTs. They have some positive qualities if you use HESH rounds but for KE rounds asmoothbore is the best choice. And with the the new MPAT and HE rounds introduced by the US, Germany and Sweden there are enough possibilities.
I am sure that turkey is able to build a good MBT but as said before by some of you guys the armor is the key.
And if you want to have the newest one you really should try to get it from the western country or Israel. (BTW the Merkava Mrk.IV also has a high-tech target-tracking system but no real auto loader. The loader in it just puts out the right sort of ammo but the human loader still have to put it into the gun.)

But blaming the EU for not wanting to give you the newest toys is for sure not right. For example we would have sold you the newest Leo II with all the gimmicks the Greeks or Spanish also have. But you want pure tech. That is something we just don't earn enough money with. ;)

PS: I know I should not go political here but saying that the Armenian Genocide never happened is if I would say that Germany never touched any jews during WWII. Just imagine how yu would react.
I get really angry if I read things like that. :mad:

[beleg]

Waylander ,I am not sure if the western countries want to share the armor tech or sell the know how for it. See the Korean example. They have started with K-1 ( which is M1 alike) exactly like we are trying to do now and the armor in K-1 is supposed to be weaker than its contemporaries. Now they have been working on that armor and other stuff for decades and producing K-2, which will probably have a more advanced version of the same armor.

Nobody with some sense will expect a state of the art full armor tech to be shared but i think we can handle the beginning phase with whatever we got. The deal also has to be cost efficient and even exportable since the region has alot of countries that might want to change their MBT fleets. (See the Turkish IFV exports to Asian and ME countries.) Thus its even more difficult to get western armor tech here.

And for your PS. Yes please refain from making political statements, i dont understand how western ears be deaf and eyes be blind to the Muslims that were massacred by Armenians and their Russian partners from 1887 and until 1915.. You know what, I get really angry if I read things like that too.. :mad

[Big-E]

Shooting with old 125mm guns with loaded with poor BM-9 ammo at M1A1s is not what I would call the ultimate armor test.
Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. Saying that any T-Series tank is crap because of the bad behaviour of T-72M export models is also not very realistic.
I also don't understand the hype about the Al-Khalid. For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons) and had some, now solved, problems during its introduction.
On the other side the Al-Khalid (Developed by a country which is NOT as advanced and experienced as the western armor building countrys) shall now be the king if the hill with its 46 tons. :rolleyes:
It may fit well into the circumstances of pak landscape and style of fighting but it is for sure not the master machine like it is called here so often.


PS: I know I should not go political here but saying that the Armenian Genocide never happened is if I would say that Germany never touched any jews during WWII. Just imagine how yu would react.
I get really angry if I read things like that. :mad:

Al-Khalid has Chinese combat systems, it's not like MBT technology is too hard to keep up with. It's a relatively cheap field of expertise and China certainly has the resources to stay near the top of the field.

Yes... please stop with the denials, it's very insulting to our intelligence.:(

[Waylander]

Which denials do you mean? The PS one or the part about MBTs?

About Al-Khalid. I didn't talk about the general combat systems of the Al-Khalid. I doubt that China and Pakistan are able to produce a state-of-the-art passive armor protection which makes the Al-Khalid withstand the same threats with its 46 tons like the M1A2s or Leo IIEs with their nearly 70 tons.

Soner and I agreed in another thread that many countrys nowadays are able to build the high-tech electronics and optics required for a modern MBT. Guns, ammo und much more armor are the real problems.

[beleg]

Indeed Waylander. The hardest accomplishment for Turkey would be the armor because as i have explained in this and the Leo2A4 transfer thread Turkey has enough tech in the areas regarding electronics and gun. The engine & transmission is another issue but it can be readily bought from various sources..

I dont know if its feasible but we can use the basic armor tech gained from Pakistan and add armor packs which are bought directly from western sources over it. Similar to Leo2A4 to Leo2 PSO modernisation which was displayed in Eurosatory 2006.

The GIAT offer for TSK is very similar to their Azure version of Leclerc but i am not really sure if TSK wants autoloader.

[swerve]

Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. ... For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons)

It weighs about the same as the first models of M1 & Leopard 2, but is smaller. The weight of Leclerc is roughly proportional to the size, when compared to a Leopard 2A5 or M1A2*, so I see no reason why Leclerc shouldn't have similar armour thickness.

*Weight of US tanks is often overstated, as a US ton is 2000lb, i.e. 907 kg. Traditional UK ton is 2240lb, so slightly more than metric - but modern UK tank weights are expressed in metric weights.

[Soner1980]

Turkey just want the tech of producing multi layered laminate or composite armor plating. The Al Khalids armor is also not the best, but making it very light with such protection is almost optimal. The Leo-2A5/6 has better armoring level but it must weigh 20 tons more. The engine is smaller and thus making it slightly more economic than the others. The gun has almost excellent capabilities but not like the Leo-2A5. The computer systems are outstanding, don't know if it is close to German counterparts but it is Western based tech. from France. Thermal viewer, 2nd generation I think. A very good tank when used properly and can be deadly like other modern MBT's.

Yes like before told by other members here, the Al Khalid is not one of the best but it comes close to todays standards.

If Turkey produces a MBT also weighing about 55 tons with the same armor type of the Al Khalid, Volkan II electronics, FCS, Thermal sights, 1200-1500hp TDi than it will be good as like the Leopard-2A6 in 2012. Till then there will be a Leo-2A7 and Turkey will be one step back from Germany :( but equal to Russian or even Israeli MBT's I think.

[isthvan]

Well I certainly don t wont to sound to skeptic but I have some doubts about Al Khalids armor protection. You see I cant quite understand all this fuss about it. I mean it is Chinese 1990s tech and if you look at new Chinese type99 MBT which has improved version of that armor and weights 54t I joust cant see how Al Khalids armor will provide decent level of protection... For that matter I also doubt that type99 provides armor protection in the level of LeoII A5...

While I completely understand Turkish needs for development of indigenous MBT I joust think that they could find more capable partners then Pakistan to help them whit development of composite armor plating(while Israel maybe would not sell tech developed for Merkava mk4 they could sell armor tech from Mk3 version especially since IIRC they offered Merkava mk.3 to Turkey in late 1990s...).

[SABRE]

Well I certainly don t wont to sound to skeptic but I have some doubts about Al Khalids armor protection. You see I cant quite understand all this fuss about it. I mean it is Chinese 1990s tech and if you look at new Chinese type99 MBT which has improved version of that armor and weights 54t I joust cant see how Al Khalids armor will provide decent level of protection... For that matter I also doubt that type99 provides armor protection in the level of LeoII A5...

The armour of T-90II was replaced by HIT when Al-Khalid went into development. It was replaced with a modular armour, but what type of armour is not known nor are HIT officials willing to answer. [The Pakistanis & Chinese have habbit of aquiring technologies via illegal means/black markets -- in such conditions the officials keep things secret. i.e. About few yrs back it was reported that Pakistan (& China) achieved modular composite aromour know how from Israel. Now Pakistan has no relations with Israel at all. Whether this is true or false it would never been know. Pakistani Parliment raised the question but they were hushed in no time.]

[Soner1980]

Ok the Al Khalid is maybe not able to withstand todays ammo from the 125mm or even the 105mm. But in it's weight of 46 tons, it is a very good armored. If the Al Khalid weighed 20 tons more than it was as good as the American or German counterpart in armoring.

The Al Khalid is not 1990's technology. The tank from it is developed is 1990's early technology, the Type-85IIAP or also known as Type-90 MBT from China.

The Pakistani's have made some improvements on their variant and is not the same tank anymore. Like I had written above, the Al Khalid is equipped with French fire control system and with a thermal imager. Wich Chinese tank except the Type-98G is equipped with a thermal imager as standard?

If Turkey uses the Pakistani knowledge, the Al Khalids armor technology, then Turkey can also modify it and perhaps it can be improved by local technicians to get a better variant of it.

I understand you, to getting more modern, western based, more spended in research, armor technology. But European countries are not so friendly as it is seen. Germany putted trouble when our army was fighting against the PKK terrorists to do not use German origin weapons or else...

To produce the German Leopard-2A6 under licence was rejected by the same reason by the greens and now Germany licks our asses to choose again and resume the tender for Turkish tank tender. If Germany had approved, we were know ready to produce the first Leo-2A6TR and the first was seen on 30-08-2006 in our 'victory day' military parade. And now Recep Tayyip Erdogan said to their German counterpart that we will develop and manufacture our own MBT and that we are not interested in German MBT anymore.

Yes, it is to counter this kind of political obstacles. Since Pakistan is a better ally for Turkey than any other Western country. Pakistan always supported Turkish politics and was also to recognize the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus after the 1974 but after Western pressure Pakistan has to take a step back. Europe was never a ally to Turkey, only trade partners and not more.

My answer to your comment: Better a slightly lesser modern armor tech. without problems in the future and full access to technology and the future sale to other countries (like Azerbaycan and Kazachistan) to the a bit more modern, but with restrictions to the commercial usage of it and getting trouble and again hearing to do not use of German origin material to your enemy. The Germans said in WW-II that they will use Brittish tanks against the Brittish to finish them off in North Africa and Erwin Rommel used them like it was German origin: The Matilda Mk.II infantry support tank.

[Big-E]

To produce the German Leopard-2A6 under licence was rejected by the same reason by the greens and now Germany licks our asses...

Ouch.. Germany tosses your salad. I doubt Waylander would take too kindly to this kind of speech. FYI in English this is very deragotory phrasing. In the future you might want to say brown-nose or some other less offensive termonolgy.

[Wild Weasel]

Something tells me he didn't mean it as a compliment. Frankly, there's no need for that kind of language in this type of forum.

I've heard far worse, of course- but that was completely uncalled for. :flaming

[Big-E]

Something tells me he didn't mean it as a compliment. Frankly, there's no need for that kind of language in this type of forum.

I've heard far worse, of course- but that was completely uncalled for. :flaming

It's def not a compliment but I know when I was learning foreign languages I tended to learn the worst words first and found those were the one's I would communicate without realizing how offensive they were.

[Soner1980]

Sorry about hat :offtopic message but this is the 'picture' of the Turks when doing arms deals with Europe. Europe has a very good arms industry but they give no chance to sell something to us because of the PKK terrorist are the goodguys and the victim is the badguy in some politicians brains.

It was frustrating when heard that the Germans rejected our offer to co-produce 1000 leo-2's for $7 bln. and therefore we would like to but Turkey is now very cautious in taking further steps. There is no guarantee anymore with EU countries because of the politics.

Therefore Turkey spends a lot of money to produce at least under licence or indigenous manufacture. Thats why Turkish technicians wanted Pakistani armor tech to do something. It is maybe not the most modern, but it can bring you far enough 'to catch the wire' and make further advancements.

[adsH]

The Whole topic again boils down to Armor, and i reckon the two countries could use Commercial/Academic knowledge of the two nations to co-develop and further there armoring capabilities.

I'm smiling because all Partnering developments (with loose boundaries) boil down to the basics and thats "who owns the fruit" lol IP for commercial sales. If both nations could somehow co develop the next gen of tank then they could both reduce costs for each other.


Guys it'd be nice if we don't insult nations and others by throwing loose comments, Mututal respect is important!

Comments

[Waylander]

As said before there is no need for such comments and so I am not going to counter that. ;)

My feeling about weapons market is that there are many reasons for the development and/or buying of a weapon system.
1. Politics
2. Politics
3. ...
12. Money
13. ...
25. needs

:D

And believe me I often enough also don't know what our politicians are thinking. ;)

[Soner1980]

Sure all weapons dealers are willing to trade and they also hate politics. But what I have read, is what I had written before in this toppic. If it is true, I'm not sure because I have not heard it from a politician directly. But estimates are like that I have written. Today it is all different, both countries are now good against each other...

But what do you think of the deal? Is the Pakistani armor tech. a good one? It is the tech from the Al Khalid and I know that it is a composition armor but what type it is, is a good kept secret I have understood. Please your answer...

[Waylander]

What I think is that the Pakistanis were not really able to improve the armor they got from China. By the time they got it they had lesser experience with special armor like this than China and so it is hard to believe that they were able to improve it much more. Even with the help of western countrys.
And I never heard that western companies also helped them with the armor besides their help with electronics, engine, etc.
You are definitely getting armor tech which could be a good base for further developments. I doubt that you are able to get state of the art armor out of it, but you could come close if you are willing to fund the armor project with much, much money.

[Ghost-Recon]

Guys, im not sure if many of you are aware of the Sabra III upgrades. Turkey is getting alot of know how technology transfer from these upgrades, we have pretty much paid 5 million per tank for these upgrades. Read the following

"" SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by 2007. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore cannon (compatible with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1100 hp MTU diesel engine/RENK transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection.

The remaining M60A1 and M60A3 tanks (1102)are likely to undergo the same upgrade process in Turkey with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks. "

To summerise it all up, its pretty much like a new tank
- New Thick Armour (Merkava 4 Armour, one of the best ARMOUR in the world)
- New 1100hp Engine & Transmission
- New 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore Gun
- New Elbit Knight-III Fire control with night&thermal imaging
- RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection
- State of the art stabilizer and ballistic computer


My personal opinion on the Indeginous Turkish Tanks armour is, this armour will be very simular to Merkawa 4's armour. As for the Turkish & Pakistan engineers working on the ideginous Turkish MBT, this isnt the case. Turkey will get some hints and tips from Pakistan, however i highly doubt the Turkish MBT's armour will consist of Pakistan help. Al Khalid is a good 3rd generation tank, but Turkey is building a modern state of the art 4th generation tank. What is happening is, Aselsan is actually working on the Al-Khalid II's FCS and computers..

The Turkish MBT will not have Eagle Eye/Volkan II FCS but a new generation digital FCS. Aselsan has been funded $50million to work on the Volkan III FCS just recently and this project to be completed in 3.5 years.

When the SABRA III deal was signed, the deal was the first 170 to be upgraded in Israel and the rest 1100 to be upgraded all in Turkey. Now, if SABRA III is receving Merkawa 4 armour and the upgrades are taking place in Turkey, obviously this Merkawa 4 armour will be made Turkey.

[Waylander]

If somebody puts some new armor onto your old tanks you don't get anything really helpfull to know out of it. You need the technical specifications not the pure armor.

[adsH]

IWhat I think is that the Pakistanis were not really able to improve the armor they got from China. By the time they got it they had lesser experience with special armor like this than China and so it is hard to believe that they were able to improve it much more. Even with the help of western countrys.
And I never heard that western companies also helped them with the armor besides their help with electronics, engine, etc.
You are definitely getting armor tech which could be a good base for further developments. I doubt that you are able to get state of the art armor out of it, but you could come close if you are willing to fund the armor project with much, much money.


I'd be cautious before claiming with certainty that Pakistani's are unable to conduct quality research. They Do have a tendency of not taunting there adversaries with claims of conducting advance defense research. They never disclose or "they often confuse" their monitors.

And Just because here in the west it costs huge ammounts of currency to conduct adavance research, doesn't necessarily mean it would cost the same in that part of the world.

[beleg]

@ghost recon


The armor in Sabras will come in packages from Israel. They wont be produced here. So there is no armor know how gained from Israel. Period.

Other things you have written are basicly what we have written above so they are correct.Thanks for summing it up nce again in a proper way.

[tphuang]

I'd be cautious before claiming with certainty that Pakistani's are unable to conduct quality research. They Do have a tendency of not taunting there adversaries with claims of conducting advance defense research. They never disclose or "they often confuse" their monitors.

And Just because here in the west it costs huge ammounts of currency to conduct adavance research, doesn't necessarily mean it would cost the same in that part of the world.
nobody is putting down Pakistanis here. It's just that Pakistan simply does not have as much much money to develop and test the materials like more traditional MBT producers. It did cost China astronomical amount of money to do the same research too, so it's not something just restricted to the West.

[Waylander]

And the main key is not only money but experience!
It has been a long process till the western tanks had the armor they have now and developing goes on.
I really don't want to bother any Pakistani but in the end I don't believe they are able to develop a state of the art armor which is totally comparable to western armor types.

[Soner1980]

Pakistan has the technology and the know how to produce a Pakistani MBT. The El Khalid. Mostly Chinese technologies are seen here. Pakistan has made some changes in it's design and systems. The Engine is from Ukraine, etc.. Applique armor plates for the future when more modern armor is available. I think the Al Khalids armor is the same as that one in the T-64 and T-72 but I'm not sure and 'reinforced' with reactive armor.

It is a pitty that Pakistani bro's does not have the chance to conduct some advancement research on the tech they already have in their hands. But Turkey does have such an lab. Turkey has everything besides armor know how and tech and the limited funds are also big problem.

I don't know about the Volkan III but the Volkan II is in upcomming. But when it will be available I dunnot know. The Volkan I is also giving the old Leo-1's a MBT's 3rd generation firing capabilities of todays standards. But also Germany for example has to do decades of research to get the armor to protect the MBT and save the existance of it. The result is the Leopard-2A5 or later.

Turkey is not to produce the Khalid but only needs armor tech. When armor tech is gained than Turkey can built it's own MBT and field them in the beginning of the next decade.

[TheDefender]

Here is an article which I have found

Al-Khalid Tank, Formally MBT 2000

Introduction

Al-Khalid is one of the newest and one of the most deadliest tanks in the world, its a result of the advanced technology available in the world today. It meets severe desert conditions, with high performance. It represents the ideal integration of firepower, mobility and protection. This tank is created In Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) Pakistan. Pilot production is underway since November 2000.

Al-Khaild Tanks Unique Abilities

Al-Khalid is capable of targeting the enemy in the dark of night. It is the only tank that has the ability to auto-track the enemy's tanks. Only French tanks have this capability. It is also as powerful as the German tank Leopard in terms of movement. The Al-Khalid tank's performance is much better than the Russian T-90-S tank, since its designed extreme temperatures.

Features & Fire Power

Al-Khalid has been designed with a 125mm (48 caliber) smooth bore, auto-frettaged and chrome plated gun which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and missiles. It is equipped with muzzle reference system, and bi-axis stabilization. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The tank is also equipped with a 7.62 mm-coaxial MG, 12.7mm externally mounted MG that can be fired with the hatch closed and grenade launchers.
The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic Hunter Killer sight for all around independent surveillance. Both sights are bi-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range finders.

Multi-Target Engagement Abilities

The commander has the ability of acquiring a target independently while the gunner is engaging a previously selected one.

Rate Of Fire

The automatic ammunition handling system, with 24 round ready-to-fire magazine further supplements the Hunter-Killer capability of the tank which can load at a rate of 8 rounds a minute. The presence of automatic target tracking system enables the tank to achieve a very high first round hit probability even while firing on a moving target while moving itself.

Night Vision

Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual magnification thermal imaging sight. The powerful fire control system computer processes all the firing information, which includes inputs from its ten sensors and is integrated to both sights.

Fire Control

The ballistic computation time is less than one second. For accurate fire control, third generation gating facility has been provided. The result of such a modern fire control system is, routine first round hits on standard (8 ft x 8 ft) targets at ranges in excess of 2000 meters.
The tank with its 125mm gun has a remarkably stable platform, which is provided by a combination of soft recoil and an excellent suspension.

Wrapped around the fire control system are the ergonomic crew positions and controls. The tank commander, gunner and driver can virtually reach all their controls with little movement.

Engine

A 1200 horsepower super charged, diesel engine and semi-automatic transmission, provides mobility. An under Armour auxiliary power supply unit provides a significant reduction in fuel consumption during 'Silent Watch' and maintenance operations, as auxiliary functions can be performed without main engine power. The highly reliable suspension consists of torsion bars, hydraulic dampers and buffers that afford a high level of comfort for its crew.

Combat Weight & Speed

Besides a low silhouette, it is considerably smaller as compared to other modern tanks. Its maximum weight of 46 tons provides a double advantage; it is strategically easily deployed and is more agile. Its power to weight ratio, in excess of 26 HP/ton, gives the vehicle a maximum speed of around 70 km/h, acceleration from 0~ 30 km/h in less than 10 seconds.

Its low mean maximum pressure and the excellent ride given by its suspension make Al-Khalid an ideal vehicle to fight in any theatre of operation.

Armour & Protection

Al-Khalid has been designed to provide maximum protection and efficiency for its 3 men crew. Protection is afforded by use of modular composite Armour and explosive reactive Armour. Al-Khalid also offers enhanced protection through NBC, an effective Thermal Smoke Generation, Automatic Fire Extinguishing and Explosion Suppression Systems.

Limited Under Water Capabilities

The submerging system allows it to operate 5 meters under water. Navigation is assisted by the use of Global Positioning and Inertial Navigation Systems.

Al-Khalid & Arjun Tank

Al-Khalid is far more modern than India's Arjun, which took 25 years to be developed and is still not completed. Pakistan already has an edge over India in an armed conflict, but after the addition of Al-Khalid, Pakistan would be invincible in a land war.

Soo what the else should it do here it is compared to the indian counterpart Arjun tank now what else you want it to do should it fly.

[SABRE]

Soo what the else should it do here it is compared to the indian counterpart Arjun tank now what else you want it to do should it fly.

TheDefender,

The tank it self is not being questioned here. Whats being discussed is the armour.

& even when coming to armour, what type & material of Composite-Modular armour is being used is the question. This information is not availble. Pakistan hides information in conditions when certain technology or technologies have been aquired via illegale means.

[Waylander]

Despite that the 125mm gun is good but not as good as modern western guns and the Leclerc is not the only other one with an auto tracking system. The Merkava has also one up from version Mrk.III.
And nobody says that the Al-Khalid is a bad tank.
Despite that the article has no real information in it. The only funded information in it is the power to weight ratio.
Everything else is just "It has excellent this and excellent that" without any real information.
Back to armor.
Is Turkey going to use ERA like system or do they rely totally on passive armor?

[TheDefender]

TheDefender,

The tank it self is not being questioned here. Whats being discussed is the armour.

& even when coming to armour, what type & material of Composite-Modular armour is being used is the question. This information is not availble. Pakistan hides information in conditions when certain technology or technologies have been aquired via illegale means.
Sabre i want to put a question here that

Pakistan gets the full armor for its thousands of tanks via illgal means to upgrade them

or pakistan only gets the tech or blue prints and on that base paksitan makes the upgradation.

I think the second on should be right pakistan should be getting the blueprints.But why to hide them, i dont think pakistaan must be getting the tech from Israel there are many other options too like China and Ukrine.
I know the discussion was going on the armour but who's armor it was Al khalid and someone was saying this and someone was saying that.So i tried to clear that thing up.

[beleg]

Is Turkey going to use ERA like system or do they rely totally on passive armor?

We still have to wait and see.. Its too early to speculate about this.

[SABRE]

Sabre i want to put a question here that

Pakistan gets the full armor for its thousands of tanks via illgal means to upgrade them

or pakistan only gets the tech or blue prints and on that base paksitan makes the upgradation.

I think the second on should be right pakistan should be getting the blueprints.But why to hide them, i dont think pakistaan must be getting the tech from Israel there are many other options too like China and Ukrine.
I know the discussion was going on the armour but who's armor it was Al khalid and someone was saying this and someone was saying that.So i tried to clear that thing up.

When you are aquiring Technology via illegal means or if you want to keep the exchange secret, you most probably would want to go for Transfer of Technology. Continuous (illegal) trade, exchange, barter will arise suspicion sooner or later.

Incase you can not transfer technology (there could be various reasons), you work it via 3rd party. Usually there is always a 3rd party. Thisi s offcourse in terms with Pakistan.

[Soner1980]

Back to armor.
Is Turkey going to use ERA like system or do they rely totally on passive armor?

Turkey has the ability to produce RHA armor. The AIFV & AAPC series and the ACV-S series has spaced armor wich can be reinforces with applique steel armor to protect against 30mm AP rounds. Turkey can built a tank like a leopard-1, AMX-30 or the Italian variant leo-1 is the OF-40 and maybe a M60A3 class with Sabra upgrade;) I think. It is not much hard to produce a 1960's era tank. But Turkey want a tank wich come close to the Abrams, T-80, Leopard-2, Leclerc and the Ariete on the world market.

With the transfer of the composite armor plating by Pakistan, Turkey can design a tank with can stop a Greek Leopard-2, The T-72 from Syria, Iran and Armenia, The Zolfiqar from Iran also. Without the composite armor, then it will be ended like the Arjun: Too heavy, less powered engine makes it slower and engine overheat, expensive, etc.. That Turkey chooses to reinforce the armor with ERA depends on the further development of the transfered design but again this will show that the armor is insuffucient... :p:

[Waylander]

Stopping the L/55 of the Greek Leopard IIHE is not that easy. ;)

[beleg]

Luckly we will not see a tank versus tank combat between Greece and Turkey. Although the terrain in Thrace is suitable (except the shores of Meric/Evros) for an armored attack , both sides have strong defences and other assets to stop each others armored force.

Besides in any tank battle, i think first hit capability is much more important than the armor quality. Todays ammunition can penetrate all types of armor (except maybe from front) if the tank is not protected by other active or passive measures. And every tank batallion has its anti tank teams which have deadly , top attacking anti tank missiles.

[Soner1980]

What is the specifications of the L-55 120mm tank gun of the Leo-2A6? Or at least the estimates? The muzzle velocity and the effective firing range...

In the Time of 2012 - 2015, Turkey will also gain the longer barreled tank gun for the MBT's. Examples is the longer barreled version of the L-42 120mm Merkava-4 tank gun installed on the Sabra tanks.

[Waylander]

The v0 is more than 1750 m/s.
In the trials in Greece an Leo IIA6EX penetrated an T-72M1 at more than 4000m and left the turret at the back with good speed.
The penetrating capacity is more than 30% higher than the L30 rifled gun with DU-Pentrator (Despite the fact that DU is not really better than other materials just cheaper) of the Chally 2 during the decision for the L/55 as the Chally 2 main gun of the future.

[Soner1980]

Than there is a big need for a new kind of armor. Because no army can use a 80 or 90 ton tank. :D The L-55 120mm gun is very brutal. But again, later it will be getting old to like the 105mm tank gun after 50 years :p: when we have grand childeren in flying MBT's.

But we will see, because having a weapon is simple, using it in a good way is a different story.

I have placed a toppic about the armor type of the Pakistani Al Khalid and no one knows what type of armor. I just keep it on my mind for the T-64 and the T-72 type Combination K or the further advancement of it in the T-64B and later the T-72 with multi-layered composite with the same as Combination K but with added layer of boron carbide and titatium-di-carbide.

It is the most widely used composite armor plating method in Soviet design and now Chinese & Pakistani I think. Because Russia does not give the best, I what used in the later models of the T-80.

[extern]

I think, we shouldnt take the tank weight as an isolatad and ultimative factor for tanks' passive defence comparizon. Before this we have to know the internal space that is defended by its armor. The Abrams has relative big internal space, some 1,5 folds bigger that eastern designed tanks. Thus it needs more passive armor weight for the same protection. Let be Al-Khalid's weight is 46t against 65 t of Abrams, it doesnt automatic mean the former is less defended, because what is defending is not weight or volume but the linear thikness of the passive armor.

Also we must take into the account that ERA belong to the standart complectation of Al-Khalid when the western designed tanks use passive armor only. If the turks intend to use ERA in their future indigeniouse tanks, the choice of eastern type passive armor is quite natural. My two pences...

[Waylander]

The type of passive armor is not related to the type of ERA system you use. You could also use eastern ERA systems on western armor and vice versa with no problems.

[extern]

Yah, but it is true only partly: just like to say 'you can use more passive armor blocks on T-72/90 instead ERA'. Practically, the weight of both type designed tanks is limited. Because of chassis and transmission limitation Abrams hardly can accept more armor in significant amount, not passive nor ERA, and the T-90 (Russian or Chinees) so. Even the eastern tanks are in slightly better position for armor upgrade because they have more 'space' for weight rising IMHO (tactical and strategic mobility issue).

[Waylander]

I totally agree with you.
All I wanted to say is that it is unimportant if you combine ERA systems with western or with eastern types of armor. The effect is the same.
In my opinion the best way would be to use the most modern western passive armor you can get and combine it with a good ERA (maybe also Shtora, Kaktus, etc.) system.
And I also agree that Abrams nearly reached its weight limit.

[Soner1980]

Yes the Abrams is too heavy, but The Al Khalid also needs some more armor for about a couple of tons maximum without loosing considerable 'dash' performance to protect against newly designed ATGM's and shells.

If Turkey want to design a tank, surely it must not weigh more than 55 tons. So, the Turkish version of the Al Khalid wich weighs 55 tons with More western systems like a German power pack and locally built electronic systems (FCS, defensive aid, etc.) and maybe Western add-on armor. The latter is also able to built locally.

About the armor of wich Pakistan does have, I think it is far superior to the Arjun's armor in terms of efficiency and technology: You need lesser thick plates to get sufficiënt protection level than the Arjun's armor wich is too heavy and far less effective up-armored.

The Turkish MBT with has to built will also be a better tank than the Al Khalid. Turkey does not need the Al Khalid as a sample. And later the Pakistani arms industries will built a more advanced tank than the Al Khalid in the 2015 I think. The Al Khalid is than their second line MBT.

[Str8 Thug]

If my memory serves me right, Al Khalid 2 should be in service by around 2012. I look forward to seeing the Turkish MBT, will be impressive among the likes of the Leapord 2.

[atilla]

I thınk ın the future there wont too much use for MBT there ıs an old sayıng

maybe some of u heard before the more armor they use we wıll use less and be lıghter .. so 54 tons MBT ?? ıs ıt realy be needed ın 10 years from now

thıs ıs why turkısh army wound not not make ıts choıse maybe ????

what u thınk ==?

[Waylander]

The tank is said to be dead many, many times in the past. Just ask the US-boys who walked into Iraq. This type of action would have been impossible without heavy mechanized forces.
And till now there is no ground unit which unites mobility, protection and firepower into one system like the MBT.
With which system do you want to replace real MBTs?

[atilla]

ın mıddle ages there wasnt a system whıch can replace knights they were heavy mobility and strong and armored ;) but somethıng came up called gun powder riffles canons and etc.... today technology ıs advancıng faster than past and gettıng smalerr maybe plastıc armored whıth color changıng expecıalıty lıke bukelemun and does ıt have to has tıres or tracks can move lıke hoovercraft thıs the ıdea whıch ı found rıght now but every one can fell tıme of MBT ıs come to an end there ıs even bullets whıch can penetrate tanks armor that technology could ımprove ın tıme or better equıped faster and color changıng ZMA could take the duty of MBT just a bıt braın strom ı dıd and shared my ıdeas thanks for your respond

[Waylander]

Which little gun under 120mm is able to penetrate a tank from the front?

For sure technic is getting better and better, but none of your ideas is near to maturity phase.

Just give me an example which system could replace a tank in the next 20 years because Turkey needs a new one NOW and not in 40-60 years.

[atilla]

ı thınk turkey does not need a MBT ı cant gıve an perfect perfect example to the ıdeas whıch ı mentıoned because probly they are not commercıal and when they wıll be comercıal lots of thank producer or armor producers wont be producıng MBT But ı thınk Turkey needs to produce a system whıch wıll be ın use next 50 or 60 years or has to start makıng researches on ıt rather than savıng thıs moment or mınute ı prefer to to save next 60 or 100 years so we can all see turkısh army would not purchase or develop any MBT thıs ıs because they are also sure MBT ıs come to an end they wıll probably use better armored ZMA or 4*4 or 8*8 lıke pandur or panter

[Soner1980]

I think Turkey needs a tank fleet now and in the future. MBT's can be stopped best by MBT's and not by APC's. They are too vulnerable to light infantry weapons. Look to the BMP's in the Afganistan war when Soviets entered that country. All light AFV's burnt like paper. More recently, watch to the Chechen war when the most APC/IFV's and also MBT's were de-mobilized and then captured or destroyed by the Chechens.

Today Turkey needs to take steps to gain the ability to produce a locally designed tank or else we would never be able to built heavy vehicles. Also the tank is never being out of the battlefield. The leopard-2 can used for 20 years and in the 20 years I do not expect that a smaller cannon with double the penetrating power of the L-55 120mm SB gun would be designed.

That the laser gun will take the place of canons? Yes but it is too soon now and the laser gun is only used in huge platorms to destroy upcomming rockets and missiles (THEL) and not in small arms yet.

The MBT will stay in the battlefield, but I think the light tank, medium tank and the MBT or heavy tank will come back again. If you see the climate is changing and the war tactics are changing (urban warfare) and that a large scale war like WWIII will occur is very small I think. The light tanks can be effectively used against guerilla's with high speed, low cost, acceptable armor and heavy armament to deal with T-62 or M60 class MBT's. I think Turkey should built 20 ton tanks to fight the PKK teror activity coming from Iraq and also design 30-35 ton tanks for use in rough terain and less fuel consumption. And only 60 ton tanks to fight enemy armor.

This is my Idea but I don't think that Turkey would choose this kind of way to arm the Turkish armed forces because Turkey needs one type of tank that is able to deal with everything on the battle field and that is the reason that Turkey needs composite armor technology to built indigenously a state of the art MBT for the Army.

[Waylander]

After the first infantry weapons very developed some people said the tank is dead, after the first ATGMs occured some people said the tank is dead, after the cold war ended some people said the MBT is dead, etc.
Till now the tank remained the best weapon for a powerfull offensive and a mobile defense.
The reason why you are not able to make an example for a system which could replace the tank is that there is no such system and there will be no such system in the near future.

[hovercraft]

This whole discussion changes into Turkish need of MBT and Al Khalid, Leopard abilities and suitable tank for turkey but the actual topic was different. So considering New Topic my question is, What is current Turkish tank infantry?

[beleg]

Dear brother,
I assume you mean *inventory*, if so please find the information below:

298 Leopard IIA4 (under delivery)
225 Leopard IA3
165 Leopard IA1 (1)
650+ M60A3
270+ M60A1 (2)
750+ M48A5T2 (~=M60A3 in terms of capabilities)
600+ M48A5T1 (~=M60A1 in terms of capabilities)

There are more than 1000 more M48s of earlier generations which are either in storage/reserve , being used as spare parts or being scrapped.
It is not clear yet if the remaining M60s or the LeopardIA3s will go under modernisation. The current amount of LeopardIIA4s is enough to deter an armored threat from the west and the SABRAIII&Volkan is better than anything on our east so this is likely.

(1) 162 of them are being upgraded by ASELSAN with a new Aselsan Eagle Eye-I thermal imaging and fire control system and electrically stabilized turret system under the name Volkan project. To be completed by January 2007.

(2) 170 units are under SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by the end of 2008. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore cannon (compatible with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1000 hp MTU diesel engine/RENK transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection.

Information compiled from warriorsouls' site, which is one of the most accurate about Turkish Armed forces on the net...

[atilla]

After the first infantry weapons very developed some people said the tank is dead, after the first ATGMs occured some people said the tank is dead, after the cold war ended some people said the MBT is dead, etc.
Till now the tank remained the best weapon for a powerfull offensive and a mobile defense.
The reason why you are not able to make an example for a system which could replace the tank is that there is no such system and there will be no such system in the near future.

well if ı look ın realıstıc way ın todays armıes your all words are true but ıf we all can not name a system and can not even thınk another that must be sometıng wrong .!!!!!!!! ıf we look ın all modern armıes yes they do use MBT and makıng new ones also whıth dıfferent armors etc...... or lıke soner saıd lazers could replace ın future so on he ıs also rıght ....... but ı would lıke to remınd 1 thıng dear frıends when seljuks meet the heavy armored knıghts they dıd not use more armor or same armor ın that days sutiatıon armored knıghts was the MBT of today :) or when romans had sımılar sutuatıons whith cartagen heavy thanks Elephants dıd they brıng other elephants?

answer ıs no .... but today we are all sayıng notıng could replace MBT ı just try to make my poınt by usıng hıstorıcal facts ı m not expertısed ın MBT s or ZMA just try to remınd past what they dıd .....

[Waylander]

For sure you have to learn from the past but comparing MBTs to knights or war elephants is too easy. I could also use the knights as an argument and say "Hey look at how long they dominated warfare. That is much longer than tanks even exist, not to talk of modern MBTs".
That would also not be an argument.

I also think that someday the tank might be gone. I am aware of the new tech which is under development. But it could also happen that all his new stuff leads to a new high-tech version of MBTs with many new improvements in it.
And in the end you should just look at the facts.
Turkey needs a new MBT NOW because the ones they have are obsolete. Just upgrading them is not enough. No modern army which wants to be able to fight a ground war in normal terrain is able to do so without MBTs.
And again my question. There is a need for a new turkish MBT. You say that new system should be used instead of a new MBT. But these system are not available and won't be in the near future.
So what is the alternative to a new MBT?
Turkey is on a good way with very good electronics, capable gun and the most modern armor they can get. We don't know what little gadgets they are going to implement in it.

[extern]

No one western futuristic tank program is targeted for creation of more than 50t tank. (FCS etc) It means T-xx serial MBT with less than 50t was a move in right direction. Now the americans try to develop even more ambitiouse project of light tanks - FCS.

[Waylander]

The first version of the M1 and Leopard II were also not much heavier than 50 tons. ;)

[atilla]

like the topic says composit armor ..... to turkey ın thıs example ıs seems realy unusefull expecıally consıderıng FCS program wıll be on fıeld by 2010 ın reference to US army or Other armıes of west

thıs means actually thıs armor technology transfer wıll be out dated when turkey starts devolopıng ıts own MBT s ın other words Turkey wıll be producıng out dated armor compare to other ......... wıll the pakıstans armor transfer have capabılıty to upgrate to electronıc armor? or robust ballistic armor ? ı thınk ıt ıs not posıble ı m not tryıng to say pakıstanı armor ıs not good ı m just sayıng many armor systems wıll be probly out dated by 2012 0r 2010 lıke napeleon saıd once ın every 10 years war tactıcs and equıpments could change ....

[Soner1980]

Turkey is now going to adopt the composite armor plating technology to it's scientific laboratorial inventory. If you know the technology, you can also make a break-through improvements of the basic technology gained by Pakistan. Like the T-64-T-72 style hull design, the Chinese have designed their own hull for todays MBT's in PLA' MBT fleet.

Turkey would also design their own battle tank and the first will be built with Pakistani transfered composite armor. If you look to the weight of the Al Khalid, 46 tons, and having good protection, than it is a very good armored by comparison it's weight. If the Al Khalid was 56 tons or even 65 tons, than the Al Khalid was maybe the same armored like the Al Khalid or the Challenger 2.

If you look to the Korean K-1, the initial production has also a limited armor in terms of the 1996's Leopard-2A5 and the M1A2. The later production was an improved design with also better armor. The K1A1 is the latest. The A1 version used a better armor type to protect the tank against shaped charge impact.

Later on, Korea is now designing the K-2 wich has composite armor. Like the Pakistani armor tech transfer, Turkey can make use of the transfered armor type and after future improvements it can start with a never version. Like the Abrams, The first production was also not so very good armored, later built with better armor on it called M1IP, or later M1A1 and than M1A1HA for 'Heavy Armor" with DU inplemented. The M1A2 has also the latest armor what the Americans can get and surely they would make advancements in it's armor technology.

And sure Turkey is to make inprovements on it if Turkey has aquired the composite armor plating technology from Pakistan. Like building a wall, you have to cement the first brick on the ground and later you will go higher and higher, finaly you have built a wall... :D

[Soner1980]

like the topic says composit armor ..... to turkey ın thıs example ıs seems realy unusefull expecıally consıderıng FCS program wıll be on fıeld by 2010 ın reference to US army or Other armıes of west

thıs means actually thıs armor technology transfer wıll be out dated when turkey starts devolopıng ıts own MBT s ın other words Turkey wıll be producıng out dated armor compare to other ......... wıll the pakıstans armor transfer have capabılıty to upgrate to electronıc armor? or robust ballistic armor ? ı thınk ıt ıs not posıble ı m not tryıng to say pakıstanı armor ıs not good ı m just sayıng many armor systems wıll be probly out dated by 2012 0r 2010 lıke napeleon saıd once ın every 10 years war tactıcs and equıpments could change ....

The composite armor is not out-dated or obsolete by 2010 or 2012. The electric shock armor is maybe not working and then? After 15-20 years the composite armor plating will also used but maybe in more advanced version of it or in APC's the M113 is built with aluminium, and later they will be built with composite armor or with plasti-steel laminate armor. If you saw the documentary of Discovery channel, Extreme machines - tanks, than you can see an APC with plastic steel and it is much lighter tank than the M113 with the same protection on it.

And MBT's will not be replaced by another AFV but the weapon, tracks, engine, electronics and the armor could be replaced by newer or inovative systems... :D

[swerve]

The first version of the M1 and Leopard II were also not much heavier than 50 tons. ;)

Yes: both 54-55 tons. The M1 is often said to be heavier than the Leopard 2, because the weight is often given in American tons, known in England, & in shipping circles, as "short tons", but in reality they've generally weighed much the same, both having been up-armoured to 60-63 tons (depending on version) now. The oft-quoted 69-70 tons for an M1A2 is in US tons, & a US ton = 2000 lb = 907 kg. Same problem occurs when comparing ships.

An Imperial (British) ton = 2240 lb = 1016 kg, so British tons aren't significantly different from metric. And in any case, we usually use metric tons for such things`

[Soner1980]

Why this kind of values in the whole world? When does this be standardized? a Yard is also 90 cm. This will never be solved :D

But back to my country wich is involved in the technology transfer for composite armor... The armor type of the El Khalid, yes its composite we all know, but what kind of composite does the Chinese use in their T-96 or even in their T-98/99? They have also reinforced their T-99's with ERA and taken the shape of a Leo-2A5 roughly. But if we know what type of composition is used in the Type-96 or -98, than we can make some estimates because of the Type-90 and more recent designs the same armor is used in Chinese tanks I think. For sure it is not Chobham or industrially called 'Burlington type' armor... :D

[extern]

They have also reinforced their T-99's with ERA and taken the shape of a Leo-2A5 roughly.
What relation has chineese ERA to Leo-2A5? :confused: I think you again try to measure chineese tanks with western pintes :D

[Waylander]

I think he ment the form of the turret not ERA. ;)

[Soner1980]

If you look to the pictures of the Leo2-a5/a6 and the Chinese Type-98G or Type-99, than tou will see.

Also the Iranian Zolfiqar 3 tank is a look a like M1 Abrams :) Most countries who has something with western countries, design their tanks like western tanks in the form, but the Zulfiqar 3 has the Russian 125mm 2A46 gun.

The Type-98G has somewhat of the leo-2a5/a6. I do not mean that it is the entire turret of the leo-2a5/a6 or ERA or something the western MBT's does not use ERA.