Sexy French MBT

[Big-E]

LeClerc MBT looks like the Porsche of MBTs in this video, just look at those headlights.:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DWY6rqMnw4&search=French%20Military

One thing I noticed was the monkey wrench. Does that sign in the back say
"Veuillez serrer l'après utilisation." Please tighten after use?:lol3

[Wild Weasel]

Aye, she's a looker, and on paper at least, she seems to be an impressive performer as well. In particular, the tank's FC suite and autoloader looks first rate when it's engaged and cycling rounds.
But I'll have to remain skeptical until the entire weapon sytem proves itself in battle.
I don't know when, or if, that will ever happen, ( I suppose one should not hope for such things. ) but that is the determining factor in my book.

The Russian T-34 deserves it's label as one of the best tanks in history of armor, because it was brutally effective in battle. So too was the Tiger, the Centurion, and the Abrams. They have all been key to winning a decisive victory over their counterparts.
As sexy as the LeClerc may be, I don't believe she has yet fired a shot in anger, nor has she been shot at.

I do thank you for the video, though. I love to watch videos of these things zipping around the test track like a car at Le Mans.

[Waylander]

Some people I talked to, who were able to drive this babe, said that it is a dream in terms of handling and acceleration.
And the tech toys in it are also lovely.
On the other hand, the UAEs seem not to be totally satisfied with their Leclerc tropicaine.
With the introduction of the newest versions (T10 should be the newest in service) the little malfunctions and tech problems shall have ended for the french army at least.

[contedicavour]

The latest batches of the Leclerc MBT are fully comparable with M1-A2 and more modern than most Leopard 2 (at least the A5, I'm not familiar with the A6) in terms of electronics and targeting systems.
However from an economic point of view, the programme is a disaster. Less than 400 have been built for France, and the 400 built for the UAE were sold at a unitary cost below production cost, just to keep GIAT alive. Unfortunately programmes with insufficient quantities (such as my country's Ariete MBT) are a drag on defense budgets. It would be better to buy off the shelf Leopard 2A5 and spare the R&D.
Each country could focus on what it does best : for Italy it is the Centauro 8x8 which exists in APC, cavalry tank buster version 105-mm gun and 120-mm guns (this one only in prototype) and has been bought by Spain and is being examined by the US (which have leased 18).

cheers

[Waylander]

The problem of comparing one tank with another comes up here again.
For example, we just don't know the exact strenght of the different self developed modern armor used by the US, Russia, Germany, France, UK, China, India, Pakistan, etc. And we will never get to know in the near future.

But we can compare style and coolness factor!!! :D

I agree that the Leclerc is a really good looking beast. He seems to be the manifestation of mobility and speed.

[Big-E]

If Iran tries to close the Straights of Hormuz like they threatened last week that would mean an invasion of the UAE. Maybe then we could see this lady in action. I wonder how she will do against the Zulfiqar? :shudder

[Snayke]

I sure like the speed of the tank and the skid it did. :P Firing while moving was a good thing too. Although I think many tanks can do that.

[cypress]

Does not look like a "MBT". at the very start of the video the driver opens the hatch and the armor could not be much more than 1 inch thick. The M1 abrams has over 1ft (over 10cm) of armor in the front. It looks light and flimsy. More like a tank destroyer or a light tank. Reminds me of the old british crusader. Thats where everythings going though, light tanks that are fast but thin armor. I wouldent want to fight in one of those.

[Izzy1]

Whilst there are a lot of cheaper, second-hand yet still highly-capable Leopard 2s around, tanks like the Le Clerc and Challenger 2E will have a hard time getting export orders.

But I agree, Le Clerc is a very nice piece of kit.

[Waylander]

The main problems for the export of Leclerc, Abrams and Challi II are not the old Leo IIA4 but the new build Leo II like the spanish, swedish and greece ones.

@Snayke
That's right. Firing while on the move is not that big thing.

@cypress
The one you mean at the beginning of the video is not a Leclerc. There are two types of tanks in this video. The one you mean is an AMX-10C scout/cavallery tank with a 105mm gun and thin armor. It is for example in use with the light armored elements of the foreign legion.

[Zombie Krupp]

The latest batches of the Leclerc MBT are fully comparable with M1-A2 and more modern than most Leopard 2 (at least the A5, I'm not familiar with the A6) in terms of electronics and targeting systems.
However from an economic point of view, the programme is a disaster. Less than 400 have been built for France, and the 400 built for the UAE were sold at a unitary cost below production cost, just to keep GIAT alive. Unfortunately programmes with insufficient quantities (such as my country's Ariete MBT) are a drag on defense budgets. It would be better to buy off the shelf Leopard 2A5 and spare the R&D.
Each country could focus on what it does best : for Italy it is the Centauro 8x8 which exists in APC, cavalry tank buster version 105-mm gun and 120-mm guns (this one only in prototype) and has been bought by Spain and is being examined by the US (which have leased 18).

cheers

The US Centauro lease is only for the purpose of training crews for Stryker Mobile Gun System. It really is a shame, since Centauro is a better vehicle, and while its not C-130 transportable, neither is any version of Stryker thanks to all the weight additions, especially the slat armor.

[Zombie Krupp]

Does not look like a "MBT". at the very start of the video the driver opens the hatch and the armor could not be much more than 1 inch thick. The M1 abrams has over 1ft (over 10cm) of armor in the front. It looks light and flimsy. More like a tank destroyer or a light tank. Reminds me of the old british crusader. Thats where everythings going though, light tanks that are fast but thin armor. I wouldent want to fight in one of those.

That’s because the crew must be able to lift them! AFV hatches are often made of armor grade titanium alloys in ordered to get better protection for the limited allowed weight, but its still a weak spot on any vehicle.

1ft is 25.4cm BTW, and the M1 most certainly does not have that thickness on the drivers hatch, the front hull armor is significantly thinner then the front turret armor in any case.

[cypress]

Yeah that was my point, that it is more like a AFV even though it is in a tank configuration. It looks like a heavy tank, until you see it how thick the hull is. A .50 call Barret with DU rounds could probly knock one out.

[PeoplesPoster]

Does not look like a "MBT". at the very start of the video the driver opens the hatch and the armor could not be much more than 1 inch thick. The M1 abrams has over 1ft (over 10cm) of armor in the front. It looks light and flimsy. More like a tank destroyer or a light tank. Reminds me of the old british crusader. Thats where everythings going though, light tanks that are fast but thin armor. I wouldent want to fight in one of those.


Wee first post. The vehicle at the beginning of the video wasen't the Leclerc. If you look closely it's one of the other wheeled armor vehicles shown.

[Waylander]

Did anyone read my post? ;)

@cypress
The one you mean at the beginning of the video is not a Leclerc. There are two types of tanks in this video. The one you mean is an AMX-10C scout/cavallery tank with a 105mm gun and thin armor. It is for example in use with the light armored elements of the foreign legion.

Here are some pics of it:

[img=http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5631/amx10rc28gv.th.jpg] (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amx10rc28gv.jpg)

[img=http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7633/amx10rc4yl.th.jpg] (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amx10rc4yl.jpg)

The Leclerc weights 56 tons. You cannot really think you are getting through it with 12,7mm. It may be lighter armored than some other tanks (Challi II, M1A2SEP, etc) but nevertheless it is a real Main Battle Tank.
Or do you think an Leopard 2A4 or an M1 is not a MBT?

[long live usa]

Some people I talked to, who were able to drive this babe, said that it is a dream in terms of handling and acceleration.
i hope that they can throw that sucker in reverse fast!!!:dance3

[Waylander]

I think I don't get what you want to say. :confused:
(I should work on my english :o )

[cypress]

Did anyone read my post? ;)



Here are some pics of it:

[img=http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5631/amx10rc28gv.th.jpg] (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amx10rc28gv.jpg)

[img=http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7633/amx10rc4yl.th.jpg] (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amx10rc4yl.jpg)

The Leclerc weights 56 tons. You cannot really think you are getting through it with 12,7mm. It may be lighter armored than some other tanks (Challi II, M1A2SEP, etc) but nevertheless it is a real Main Battle Tank.
Or do you think an Leopard 2A4 or an M1 is not a MBT?


You are right about the Leclerc, it is a real MBT, but those photos are not of the AFV at the start of the video. Where is the hatch on the left side? Different altogether.

[Waylander]

Arrgh, my mistake.
I forgot that the French have another wheeled light tank.
Should be an ERC-90.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/France/Exhibition/14_juillet_2004/pictures/ERC-90_Sagaie_Military_parade_14_July_2004_France_01.j pg

[DoC_FouALieR]

Exactly.
The armored vehicle we can see at the beginning of the video is an ERC-90 "Sagaie" light armored recon vehicle. It has a distinguishable side door to access the driver post, 6 wheels, a 90mm rifled gun and amphibious capability.
They are being retrofitted with a new engine to accept common diesel fuel, and new protection and fire control system.

[Waylander]

You French really like light armored but powerfull armed vehicles definitely more than most of the other european countrys. I think this could be because of your experience in Africa.
Is this right?

[tatra]

Does not look like a "MBT". at the very start of the video the driver opens the hatch and the armor could not be much more than 1 inch thick. The M1 abrams has over 1ft (over 10cm) of armor in the front. It looks light and flimsy. More like a tank destroyer or a light tank. Reminds me of the old british crusader. Thats where everythings going though, light tanks that are fast but thin armor. I wouldent want to fight in one of those.

That's because the first few images show a crewman getting into a 6x6 WHEELED armoured vehicle, not the LeClerc MBT.

[DoC_FouALieR]

You French really like light armored but powerfull armed vehicles definitely more than most of the other european countrys. I think this could be because of your experience in Africa.
Is this right?
It is partially right. In France we have light armored divisions that are parts of our "foreign legion". Historically, these forces were created to recruit men from our settlements and to protect them.
Since we haven't lost all of them and since we are in good terms with a lot of african countries, we still need light cavalry that can be quickly deploied by air or naval means. So the light vehicles are now a "tradition" and our engagement in Ivory Coast shows that the AMX-10 P 105mm and the ERC-90 Sagaie "light tank" are particularly well-fitted to an african-type ground.

[Waylander]

How many ERC-90 do you have in the french army?
The Lègion Entrangère has the 1. REC and one squadron in the 13. DBLE equipped with AMX-10 right?

[DoC_FouALieR]

We have approximatively 200 ERC-90 and 300 AMX-10 P, they are all likely to be retrofited, before the introduction of the "EBM" (engin blindé médiant).

The Lègion Entrangère has the 1. REC and one squadron in the 13. DBLE equipped with AMX-10 right?
That must be right, but I'm not really sure... Others divisions are equipped with, apart from the Légion Etrangère.
Often, our light cavalry is used as a support weapon for motorized/recon infantry while our armoured division (equipped with Leclercs) lead the way for the mechanized infantry.

[alexsa]

The Russian T-34 deserves it's label as one of the best tanks in history of armor, because it was brutally effective in battle. So too was the Tiger, the Centurion, and the Abrams. They have all been key to winning a decisive victory over their counterparts.
As sexy as the LeClerc may be, I don't believe she has yet fired a shot in anger, nor has she been shot at.



If you are going to mention Abrams you must also mention Challenger. From what I have read it is a proven performer and is descibed as the most heavilly armoured western tank in wikipecia.

[Waylander]

Wikipedie is not the source of choice for armor estimates of modern MBTs. ;)

But you are right, is is said to be heavily armored.

[alexsa]

Wikipedie is not the source of choice for armor estimates of modern MBTs. ;)

But you are right, is is said to be heavily armored.

Wikipedia is a very good general reference source but is is not authorituve, however, the point remains the C2 is heavily armoured and I understand harder to kill than an Abrams. It has also seen combat in the second gulf war while challeger I was in the first.

[swerve]

1ft is 25.4cm BTW,

[Pedantic mode] 1 foot is 30.5 cm. 1 inch is 25.4 mm, & 1 foot = 12 inches. [/Pedantic mode]

[swerve]

The Leclerc weights 56 tons. You cannot really think you are getting through it with 12,7mm. It may be lighter armored than some other tanks (Challi II, M1A2SEP, etc) but nevertheless it is a real Main Battle Tank.
Or do you think an Leopard 2A4 or an M1 is not a MBT?

Not much lighter armoured. It weighs slightly more than a basic M1 or Leopard 2 (56.5 tons, vs 54-55 tons), but is about 10% smaller. An M1A2 weighs about 62-63 tons (or about 70 of those 907 kg American "tons"), a Leopard 2A6 about the same. That gives a weight/volume ratio only very slightly higher than the Leclerc.

[Bfn42]

Wikipedia is a very good general reference source but is is not authorituve, however, the point remains the C2 is heavily armoured and I understand harder to kill than an Abrams.


Says who Wikipedia........? There's no way you could prove the M1a2 sep armors better than the c2 or vice versa......

[Wooki]

LeClerc MBT looks like the Porsche of MBTs in this video, just look at those headlights.:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DWY6rqMnw4&search=French%20Military

One thing I noticed was the monkey wrench. Does that sign in the back say
"Veuillez serrer l'après utilisation." Please tighten after use?:lol3

Um,

wot video?

I think the link is dead

[KWSN-Men]

A few years back, when Greece was going to buy it's new MBT's, they put in the same test track the M1, the Leo2, the Leclerc, the Challenger and the T-80. Latest versions at the time (about 6 years ago I think).

The results were a bit surprising. The T-80 was waaay back, the Leclerc came out 4th, quite close to the Challenger. Quite a bit front were the Leo 2 and the Abrams, very close. The Leo scored slightly better overall, but insignificant lead really. It all came down to the, to put it midly, problematic US after sales service and the turbine engines against the always available German parts and diesel engines. I do remember that the Lecrlerc had done really good in mobility though...

[DoC_FouALieR]

Yeah, I remember the result of this test. The Leclerc came first for the mobility and unrefueling range.

[KWSN-Men]

By the way, I discovered this little video, don't know how many of you have seen it, but it does have some nice moves :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KxdEtyxa7Ao&search=exocet

[beleg]

A few years back, when Greece was going to buy it's new MBT's, they put in the same test track the M1, the Leo2, the Leclerc, the Challenger and the T-80. Latest versions at the time (about 6 years ago I think).

The results were a bit surprising. The T-80 was waaay back, the Leclerc came out 4th, quite close to the Challenger. Quite a bit front were the Leo 2 and the Abrams, very close. The Leo scored slightly better overall, but insignificant lead really. It all came down to the, to put it midly, problematic US after sales service and the turbine engines against the always available German parts and diesel engines. I do remember that the Lecrlerc had done really good in mobility though...

We had similar results in the tests back in 2000. Today GIAT is offering an up armored AZUR like version of Leclerc for TSKs MBT needs.. I wonder whose assistance will be sought GIAT , Rheinmetal&KMW or Korea..

[Waylander]

I'm shocked.
A Discovery Channel documentation with the Leo in front of the Abrams. :D
I really would like to see those battlefield management systems on our german Leos.

[rattmuff]

By the way, I discovered this little video, don't know how many of you have seen it, but it does have some nice moves :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KxdEtyxa7Ao&search=exocet

"Greatest tank ever"
1. Leopard 2 A5S
2. M1A1 Abrahams
3. T-34
4. Merkava MK 4
5. Centurion
6. Stridsvagn 103 (the S-tank)
7. T-72
8. Panther/Pzkpfw V
9. M-551 Sheridan
10. M-4 Sherman

There are some notes about this.

1. Jury: Discovery Channel, Tom Clancy(writer, historian), Jaques Littlefield(historian/collector), Peter Caddie Adams(historian), Simon Parker, John Gillman and James Brown(technicians/design engineers), Wolfgang Sterner(german Panther-driver), Brian Carpenter and Ken Tout(Sherman driver/commander). They also based this on interviewing about 100 "tank-knowers" and various experts. USA-dominated jury!

2. They didn't consider the tanks armor and protection!

3. Discovery channel have made two "greatest tank ever" shows. This one where the L2A5S (strv 122) won and in the other show the T-34 won.

4. That video-clip was made in January 2005 at P4 in Skövde (http://www.p4.mil.se/).

(I got much more of info regarding this Discovery Channel documentary) :p:

[KWSN-Men]

I am not saying that I agree with Discovery Channel views (or that I don't for that matter :D ) but the clip has some nice Leo 2 driving.

[rattmuff]

I am not saying that I agree with Discovery Channel views (or that I don't for that matter :D ) but the clip has some nice Leo 2 driving.

Same here, just threw in some useless info about the documentary. :D

[Wooki]

Same here, just threw in some useless info about the documentary. :D

I like the warranty though....

how much?

;)

W

[Big-E]

"Greatest tank ever"
1. Leopard 2 A5S
2. M1A1 Abrahams
3. T-34
4. Merkava MK 4
5. Centurion
6. Stridsvagn 103 (the S-tank)
7. T-72
8. Panther/Pzkpfw V
9. M-551 Sheridan
10. M-4 Sherman

There are some notes about this.

This list is totally messed up. I think the only way you can have a Greatest Tank ever list have to be ones that have gone up against contemporaries and earned a rep as being amazing. Leo 2 has yet to face this challange, same goes for Merkava. S-Tank... please. T-72 is a death trap. M-551... please. The Sherman was great b/c she was cheap, not b/c she was a great tank.

[Waylander]

I think nobody here said or thinks that this list is good. ;)

BTW, Merkava I-III foight enough against other tanks.
And as you said before, the older T-72s are death traps. So I would not say that the M1 faced big enemys.

If you go just for procurement the winner of the modern MBTs should be clear. ;) :D (I know this is not the ultimate fact)

[rattmuff]

I like the warranty though....

how much?

;)

W

A swedish L2A5S?
About $6,5-8 million and $2000/10km.(6 years ago) :D

((have no idea if this is a fact or bullshit, don't bother trying to find out))

__________________________________________________ __________
I agree, it is a wierd list.