2nd Australian led Timor Leste intervention

[Aussie Digger]

East Timor asks for Australian troops

East Timor's foreign minister says his country will invite Australian peacekeepers to restore calm, after a second day of fighting around the capital Dili.


Jose Ramos Horta said a meeting of East Timorese government officials had decided to ask four countries for help. The countries were Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Portugal.
Australia would be asked to provide police and a "small but credible" force of troops. It was hoped they could be on the ground in the next 2-3 days, Mr Ramos Horta told the ABC's 7:30 Report.


However, Australia's Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said no formal request had been received and Australia was more likely to send troops than police.
"We do need to have a formal request, by way of a request in writing signed by the president, and by the prime minister, and ideally by the speaker of parliament," Mr Downer told the ABC.

He said the situation on the ground meant sending troops would be preferable.

"I think it's much less likely we would be sending police in the near future," Mr Downer said. "I think it's more likely that if we send anybody, we'll send troops."

He said additional formalities were required, such as agreement on the rules under which foreign troops would operate.

"We would need to have with the East Timorese, a status of forces agreement," Mr Downer said.

The size of the force would also depend on the East Timorese request.
"We'd be looking at something in the vicinity of a battalion, or perhaps a battalion group," Mr Downer said.

Mr Ramos Horta predicted Australian troops would have "an immediate calming effect throughout the country" and would be unlikely to face hostile fire.

"We do not anticipate that either the police or the defence force will have to engage in any hostile activity," Mr Ramos Horta said.

"I view these as preventative measures to prevent the country sliding further into instability."

Portugal was likely to provide a police unit that had served overseas before, including in Iraq, Mr Ramos Horta added. He said he had been talking with rebel troops.

At least one person was killed yesterday in the violence, which began with rioting earlier this month after 600 troops were dismissed from the fledgling nation's military.
Royal Australian Navy vessels the HMAS Kanimbla and HMAS Manoora were stationed off the coast of Darwin earlier today, in anticipation of the East Timorese request.

Courtesy of www.yahoo.com.au (http://www.yahoo.com.au)

Word around the traps is the Naval fleet has already set sail and will be off the coast of Dili by 6.00am Australian time. (About 5hrs from now).

Apparently 1 RAR, 2 RAR, 3/4 Cav Regt and 2nd Cav Regt plus a specwarrie contingent and support elements have got the "gig"...

They might even have a few contacts over there too. This is the closest thing we've had to a force on force fight since the "heady days" of Interfet and that "misunderstanding" on the border of West Timor that left the TNI (Indonesian Army) 5-nil down against 2RAR... :p:

[Ozzy Blizzard]

its on! what type of force structure are we dealing with here? elements or full regements? It looks like the largest thing we've done scine 99. thanks for the heads up!:gun

[robsta83]

Well it look like its official, AAP has reported that 1000-1300 ADF personnel will head to Timor with the Advance party going in soon, NZ and Portugal have been asked, but I wouldnt imagine NZ sending anything more than a rifle company, but more likely the Field Surgical hospital, the better part of 350 soldiers on operational deployment in Afghanstan and the Solomons.
The Manorra Kanimbla and Tobruk are standing by. Well there goes the budget for the year. The NSC has already aprroved the deployments, so it looks like Darwin is going to be a hive of activity, I bet they wish they the C17's already.

[Big-E]

So if Indonesia opens fire on Australian forces will they declare war?

[gf0012-aust]

So if Indonesia opens fire on Australian forces will they declare war?

There were some interim discussions with the Indons last week.

I don't think that there is any risk of that happening.

[marxist_command]

So if Indonesia opens fire on Australian forces will they declare war?

Indonesia would never do such things. We won't open fire to the Australian forces as long as they remain on the Timor land. Our troops on the border was just regular troops and 1 or two groups of artillery and some koppasus soldier. But if Australia pass Indonesian border, well We don't have any option left

[gf0012-aust]

Indonesia would never do such things. We won't open fire to the Australian forces as long as they remain on the Timor land. Our troops on the border was just regular troops and 1 or two groups of artillery and some koppasus soldier. But if Australia pass Indonesian border, well We don't have any option left

I don't think you're going to shoot us after we gave your Govt $1.3bn in aide money after the Tsunami. ;) We're still neighbours and that means we have to work out how to get along with each other even when our Govts change.


as I said prev, the Aust Govt and Indon Govt had discussions re East Timor last week.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Indonesia would never do such things. We won't open fire to the Australian forces as long as they remain on the Timor land. Our troops on the border was just regular troops and 1 or two groups of artillery and some koppasus soldier. But if Australia pass Indonesian border, well We don't have any option left

If i remember correctly it was indonesian troops who opened fire on 2RAR when THEY were over the boader due to a navigation error. I hope we dont have any more missunderstandings like that again (for the indo's sake:D as Aussie digger stated above its 5 nill)!

[Padman]

Word from Wellington is that NZ forces will likely deploy soon. What forces though I don't know. Perhaps a couple platoons of infantry plus some recon in short term. Hercules, 757s and Hueys perhaps. I think Te Mana is in area.

[marxist_command]

I don't think you're going to shoot us after we gave your Govt $1.3bn in aide money after the Tsunami. ;) We're still neighbours and that means we have to work out how to get along with each other even when our Govts change.


as I said prev, the Aust Govt and Indon Govt had discussions re East Timor last week.

Yes we will try to get along with u. BUT, the "aide" problem will never make us take it easily if Australia troops passing Indonesian border.:cop We just defending our side right? I believe Australia will do the same thing if Indonesian troops make a land on their land

[marxist_command]

If i remember correctly it was indonesian troops who opened fire on 2RAR when THEY were over the boader due to a navigation error. I hope we dont have any more missunderstandings like that again (for the indo's sake:D as Aussie digger stated above its 5 nill)!

Like I said before. As long as they stay on Timor land or "Their own land". On the accident the 2 RAR already pass the border(that's what our govt report), and (:coffee even though not officially reported) The 2 RAR didn't answer the first,second,and third warning.

After all, peace is better

[gf0012-aust]

Yes we will try to get along with u. BUT, the "aide" problem will never make us take it easily if Australia troops passing Indonesian border.:cop We just defending our side right? I believe Australia will do the same thing if Indonesian troops make a land on their land

have you looked at the map to see what areas are under conflict?

Its around Dili and east of Dili towards the ranges. Thats not even remotely close to the border.

Any conversations about cross border incursion is thus a bit academic. The whole reason for the meeting last week between the Indon and Aust govts was obviously to make sure that everyone knew what was unfolding. I'd be guessing that this meeting wasn't even something that the average Indonesian was aware of.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Like I said before. As long as they stay on Timor land or "Their own land". On the accident the 2 RAR already pass the border(that's what our govt report), and (:coffee even though not officially reported) The 2 RAR didn't answer the first,second,and third warning.

After all, peace is better

War between Indonesia and Australia would be a disaster for everyone in the region. When i said THEY i did mean TNI personel. I know none of us can know for sure because we weren't there but i think it's more likely that TNI forces were in the wrong place rather than 2RAR. Wern't these the same guys who were training and insearting pro-indonesian millitia's who killed and mutilated an NZDF soldier? Anyway peace is allways better and as long as everyonestays on their side of the border (and i dont think it would be in anyones interests to go and play special forces) there shouldn't be any problems. And as GF stated above ADF personell will probably be no where near the border so this IS all academic.

[gf0012-aust]

Lets all get back to the issue of East Timor. The Indon-Aust problem from 1999 has minimal relevance to the current problem.

[marxist_command]

have you looked at the map to see what areas are under conflict?

Its around Dili and east of Dili towards the ranges. Thats not even remotely close to the border.

Any conversations about cross border incursion is thus a bit academic. The whole reason for the meeting last week between the Indon and Aust govts was obviously to make sure that everyone knew what was unfolding. I'd be guessing that this meeting wasn't even something that the average Indonesian was aware of.

Yups, agree with that. I just hope that the rebellion won't explode in west Timor:D

[marxist_command]

Lets all get back to the issue of East Timor. The Indon-Aust problem from 1999 has minimal relevance to the current problem.

Sure.From the passage before I know that ADF will send about 1000-1300 troops to Timor. I just wondering did the army just to "frightening" or they will join combat? If yes, do they have anti-Guerrila tactics? Don't wanna to prolong the rebellion right?

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Personally i think it will be an anti climax, like the solomons. The 600 rebel soldiers might get a bit frisky but theyll probably come to heal pretty quickley after troops arive. Does anyone know why they were kiked out? was it racial or political? Funding issues?

[Big-E]

Yups, agree with that. I just hope that the rebellion won't explode in west Timor:D

I think Indonesia has a much bigger problem with West Papua and the OPM.:shudder

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I think Indonesia has a much bigger problem with West Papua and the OPM.:shudder

Me to. ethnically, politically it has all the hallmarks of a potential disaster. they would be in the same boat in Ache if it wasn't for the tsunami dissaster.

[Big-E]

Me to. ethnically, politically it has all the hallmarks of a potential disaster. they would be in the same boat in Ache if it wasn't for the tsunami dissaster.

What a nightmare Indonesia would face if West Papua, Timor, Sumatra declared independence and PRC made a move on the Natunas. Then all the other islands would want to break away and Indonesia would only be in Java.

[Aussie Digger]

Seems my earlier comment was not quite correct. It was SASR elements that are already on the ground, however I can address the rumours about which "regiment" etc wil be going.

1RAR is the current "on-line" Battalion in Townsville at present, meaning that under normal circumstances they would get the gig.

However 1RAR still has a company in the Solomans, (deployed last month) and I believe 2RAR is currently providing the Al Muthana Infantry Coy, with 3RAR having a Coy in Solomans as well and 5/7RAR providing SECDET in Baghdad.

6RAR is the only battalion with no deployed elements (that I'm aware of) however is in the process of working up for the already announced PRT in Afghanistan...

Talked about stretched. Bet the Government wished it hadn't got rid of 8/9RAR so suddenly...

1RAR from what I've heard only has 3x manned rifle Coy's at present with the 4th Coy used as a "holding" Coy and not capable of deployment.

In my view then the taskforce heading to Timor HAS to made of a combination of Coys from 1RAR and 2RAR and possibly 5/7RAR.

4RAR Commando's and RAAF Air Field Defence guards are already on their way from all reports and will be used to secure the airfield, along with SASR just as was done in the initial stages of Interfet. I'd imagine SASR have a few "specials" lined up already as well.

(Rioting ring leaders watch out).... ;)

[Ozzy Blizzard]

What a nightmare Indonesia would face if West Papua, Timor, Sumatra declared independence and PRC made a move on the Natunas. Then all the other islands would want to break away and Indonesia would only be in Java.

yeah the malaysian's could pick up the pieces and grab south Borneo. i supose their some of the problems you face with such an ethnically diverse country, and it doesnt look like theirs gonna be an easy fix. anyway this is bordering on political talk and i gathered that thats blasphamy here! ;)

[Big-E]

yeah the malaysian's could pick up the pieces and grab south Borneo. i supose their some of the problems you face with such an ethnically diverse country, and it doesnt look like theirs gonna be an easy fix. anyway this is bordering on political talk and i gathered that thats blasphamy here! ;)

I think it's more strategic than political.

[robsta83]

Operation Astute

Australian Defence Force poised for deployment to Timor Leste

The Australian Defence Force is poised for a rapid deployment of troops to bring security, peace and confidence to Timor Leste.

A senior team of Government officials headed by the Vice Chief of the Defence Force, Lieutenant General Ken Gillespie, will consult with the East Timorese Government later today on the terms and conditions of an Australian deployment. He will also discuss how the ADF will cooperate with the F-FDTL.

We currently have one battalion group of about 1300 personnel based on the third battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, pre-positioned to deploy at short notice. A part of this battalion group has already departed Australia.

A Commando Company from the Fourth Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment (Sydney-based unit) will move to Dili in four S-70 Black Hawks and a C-130 transport aircraft today. Their task is to secure a point of entry for follow on forces.
A C-130 Hercules from the Royal Australian Air Force Air Lift Group (Richmond based asset) will depart Darwin today to undertake evacuation of Australian and other approved nationals. The C-130 will attempt two evacuation flights today.
The Guided Missile Frigate HMAS Adelaide is in the vicinity of Timor Leste and prepared to support ground operations.
The Amphibious Landing Ship HMAS Kanimbla is currently mid-way between Darwin and Timor Leste. It contains a hospital capability.
The Heavy Landing Ship HMAS Tobruk and the Amphibious Landing Ship HMAS Manoora are positioning to embark follow-on forces.
By late this evening it is expected that there will be approximately 200 ADF personnel in Dili.

Given the prudent military preparations that have been ongoing during the previous three weeks, the Australian Defence Force is well postured for a range of contingencies, including the evacuation of Australian and other approved nationals.

The spectrum of Defence response options available to Government also includes the ability to stabilise the security environment, enabling the political issues in Timor Leste to be addressed in a calm and secure environment.

Information current at 25 May 2006
Defence.gov.au

Well there you have it the 3RAR bought up to strentgh with the 4rar company already in country, intresting they are using a unit that won't be able to do it as easily in 2010, although the ghan will get them up quick I guess. Quite a impressive operation in my mindgoes to show somethings working.

[Aussie Digger]

Operation Astute

Well there you have it the 3RAR bought up to strentgh with the 4rar company already in country, intresting they are using a unit that won't be able to do it as easily in 2010, although the ghan will get them up quick I guess. Quite a impressive operation in my mindgoes to show somethings working.

There you go my "source" was wrong, put off no doubt by 3RAR embarking in Townsville. 3RAR is not going to the Ghan though. 6RAR is supposed to be...

This is a complete re-run of Interfet. 3RAR was the first ADF "conventional" force into Timor last time too...

[robsta83]

My bad, I wasn't clear I meant in 2010 the 3rd RAR coldnt move in as quickly as it will be mech, but they will have "the ghan" then.

[Supe]

Mod edit: Better now??? Australian presence has been requested by the East Timorese. I don't see it as being very helpful in describing what the ADF is doing over there. Actually, the title pisses me off.... but don't mind me, I recently replied on another forum regarding some loony position that our invited presence there is an Australian Govt resource grab redux ala gas. :rolleyes: Bah!

[abramsteve]

This is what its all about. IMO this is the type of operation that our armed forces are best used for. Im glad to hear that we are not holding any punches in dealing with this dissapointing situation.

Lets hope for a quick, clean and efficent end to this sensless violence, with out the loss of any Australian lives :)

[robsta83]

Lets hope for a quick, clean and efficent end to this sensless violence, with out the loss of any Australian lives :)

Here, Here!

[Whiskyjack]

Well it seen the RNZAF is sending a 757 and C130, along with the standby infantry platton to be followed up by the rest of an infantry company and supporting elements.

[robsta83]

Its quite a good effort by the Kiwis, as that essentially brings them up to a battlion of personnel deployed overseas, bet they wish they had the MRV a bit sooner though, at least to get some vehicles up.

[stryker NZ]

if hostilities did break out in East Timor does anyone know what our guys would be going up against (eg would the dismissed Timor soldiers turn on the peace keeping forces)

[Snayke]

Since our diggers have touched down in Dili, or the first bunch of them, the news says its been pretty calm in Dili. There also seems to be a dispute over who is commanding the military. The president and prime minister both claim they are. Plus reports of police being killed by the military.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1648214.htm

ALL of our boys will be in country by tomorrow it says. And if the rebels would turn on the peace keepers, I'm not sure. They are fighting with government forces it seems but I don't know why civilians are being hit. It's bloody bullshit when two distinct forces have a conflict but somehow civies get mixed up.

[gf0012-aust]

if hostilities did break out in East Timor does anyone know what our guys would be going up against (eg would the dismissed Timor soldiers turn on the peace keeping forces)


the dispossessed troops are pro-australian
the govt troops are pro australian
the police are pro australian
the militia are the wildcard

[Snayke]

Eh? What militia? I thought there were only the sacked soldiers who are now the rebels and government forces. Had no idea about a militia. Rather complicated now.

[gf0012-aust]

And if the rebels would turn on the peace keepers, I'm not sure. They are fighting with government forces it seems but I don't know why civilians are being hit. It's bloody bullshit when two distinct forces have a conflict but somehow civies get mixed up.

This is a lot more complicated than what is being presented in the media.


there are tribal rifts between western and eastern tribes
the eastern tribes accuse the western tribes of being pro-communist
the police are managed by western tribal leaders - but they also have pro-govt factions
the army rebels are basically eastern tribes - and have been complaining about racial discrimination
the govt troops are pro-australian
both govt troops and rebel troops have had their leaders trained in australia
the head of the rebels is a Naval commander - even though the press call him a "Major"
the prime minister is hopeless and completely out of his depth, he is also hostile to the aust govt to some degree over resource issues - there are concerns from our end that he's corrupt
the president is pro australian and has an australian wife
the secretary of the parliament is pro-australian
the majority of the civilians are pro-australianas an aside, if the Indons are paying attention, they will also be pro-australian in the sense that Prime Minister Alkatiri is regarded as pro-communist - and they despise the communists.

its a witches brew.

[gf0012-aust]

Eh? What militia? I thought there were only the sacked soldiers who are now the rebels and government forces. Had no idea about a militia. Rather complicated now.

More like opportunist petty criminals - I imagine that they will be sorted out pretty quickly as the rebel troops won;t want to be associated with them. I wouldn't at all be surprised that if push comes to shove, they would assist in their capture as a gesture of goodwill.

[Snayke]

Oh. Those guys. Perhaps they are responsible for the attacks on civilians? But yeh, I remember the rebels wanting Australian presence in Timor Leste so I reckon they'll talk now. But that's just my thought.

[Supe]

This is a lot more complicated than what is being presented in the media.

....



I wasn't aware Alkatiri had communist leanings...

Regards the training received by the FDTL. I would think that training the armed forces of a new nation, much emphasis would put upon recruits and leadership that they serve the State and that mutiny and the like is an inappropriate response to grievances. It would be interesting to find out if ADF included this in the syllabus. It's fortuitous for Australian govt that most of the main players are are pro-Australian, just too bad FDTL hadn't been inculcated on proper military conduct by advisors.

I hope there's no 'amnesty' for the deserters. They have proven themselves not worthy of the uniform they wear.

[gf0012-aust]

I wasn't aware Alkatiri had communist leanings...

thats the view of the army in general, not just the rebels.

a little precis of the depth of this internal cluster (from the Age):

"Responsibility lies firstly with the East Timorese leadership. Prime Minister Mari Alkatiri and his Fretilin party colleagues sat back while a third of the 1800-strong army walked off, with their weapons, over small grievances, and then were sacked.

President Jose Xanana Gusmao, the charismatic former resistance leader who has formal command of the military, has also been weak, strangely disengaged from the army split as it festered for three months.

Interior Minister Rogerio Lobato, a former Fretilin exile in Mozambique, where he was jailed for diamond smuggling and once tried to stab his colleague Jose Ramos Horta, runs a factionalised police force.

A whiff of internal Fretilin power play, perhaps an attempt to unseat Alkatiri, hangs around the actions of army rebel Major Alfredo Reinado, who is not entirely aligned with the main body of dismissed soldiers, recruits from the western part of the country."

The comments re Gusmao are slightly flawed. he is an executive symbolic head anyway, he has no legal power to take charge of anything unless sanctioned by the Parliament/Govt.

Also Alkitiri is way outside of his skillset. He's got into the role due to factional loading. Think of it as a variation of "branch stacking" ;)

[Supe]

@GF

A post of yours refers to discussions between DFAT and the Indonesians over the current situation in East Timor. May I ask what/who your sources are? I can't find anything on DFAT website. If it has been mentioned in the news, I have missed it.


DFAT had a meeting with their Indon counterparts last week. I assume that everything is huggy.

I'm confident that Indonesia has no designs on re-incorporating Timor Leste into Greater Indonesia. I base this 'assumption' on SBY being at the helm, political consequences of such an action and its ongoing problems in other parts of Indonesia. Howerver, I wonder if you or anyone else for that matter has heard to the contrary?

Also, could Indonesia gain advantage in stirring the pot through its proxies?

Edit: The Kiwis are on board and deploying to East Timor. With the increased tempo of their forces, voices for real increase in defence spending comensurate to the operations it's undertaking might finally be heard. Assuming the voices for a more pro-active defence budget within Kiwi political circles are there.

Here's a pic post from MP.net of the deployment:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1677184&postcount=9

[gf0012-aust]

@GF

A post of yours refers to discussions between DFAT and the Indonesians over the current situation in East Timor. May I ask what/who your sources are? I can't find anything on DFAT website. If it has been mentioned in the news, I have missed it.

Downer mentioned it in an I/V done 48 hrs ago on Ch9

I'm confident that Indonesia has no designs on re-incorporating Timor Leste into Greater Indonesia. I base this 'assumption' on SBY being at the helm, political consequences of such an action and its ongoing problems in other parts of Indonesia. Howerver, I wonder if you or anyone else for that matter has heard to the contrary?

There are certainly some in the Indon Govt who see it as "I told you they weren't ready" situation. There are also some who still resent the fact that ET is a separate entity.

Also, could Indonesia gain advantage in stirring the pot through its proxies?

Not in their interest, as if we became machiavellian, we could make their life very hard in the other provinces who are also itching to break away.

Here's a pic post from MP.net of the deployment:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1677184&postcount=9

Bloody atrocious, I hope someone in DMO is paying attention to the amount of NS gear thats being used as they don't have confidence in issued gear.

It's a dogs breakfast.

[merocaine]

This Is Off the Guardian Web Blogg
Interesting in light of events.

With the imminent arrival of 1,400 diggers in East Timor to join the 150 soldiers already in the country, Australia will briefly have more soldiers deployed in its backyard than in its controversial missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, writes David Fickling.

A few hundred miles to the east in the Solomon Islands, 400 troops were deployed after disputed prime ministerial elections last month resulted in riots and the looting of Chinese-run shops.

It's understandable at a time like this that fears in Canberra turn towards the emergence of an "arc of instability (pdf)" off Australia's northern coasts.

Even Fiji, the tourist capital of the region, has been looking sickly. There has been no repeat of the coups that result whenever the Indo-Fijian minority gets a taste of power, and fears of unrest were averted this month when general elections returned a Melanesian-dominated government.

But disputes still simmer around army chief Frank Bainimarama, whose laudable opposition to the 2000 coup plotters has tilted towards outright insurrection in recent months.

The nightmare scenario is that one of these countries could become a failed state and a breeding ground for either terrorism, or transnational crime, or both, but it's unlikely that any of them will descend into a state of Iraq-style disorder soon. Melanesia's tribal culture may encourage endlessly complex factional splits, but it also tends to discourage the sort of ideological dispute that sustains unrest in other parts of the world.

Most societies in the region are village-based, agricultural and highly decentralised. Central government has little effect on most people's lives, and if it broke down a lot of places would probably barely notice. And though governments naturally have to exercise a precautionary principle, it's unlikely that terrorists or crime gangs would ever see Australia's backyard as an attractive operations base.

For terrorists, there are much better opportunities in the Middle East, east Africa and the suburbs of developed cities. Criminals, for their part, can find all the support they need in the opaque business cultures and weak police forces of the Pacific's more genteel tax havens

[merocaine]

sorry about the double post but heres the link for the PDF

http://www.iisd.org/pdf/2005/security_aiding_or_abetting.pdf

[Snayke]

This is getting very confusing. It seems the "official" armed forces troops are infact against the police. I asked my dad about the rivalry(my parents are from East Timor, left a few years after Indonesia took over and started culling everything) and he said something about that they would fight each other or something.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1648798.htm

There's the link that mentioned armed forces killing police. Too many factions. DAMN!

[gf0012-aust]

This is getting very confusing. It seems the "official" armed forces troops are infact against the police. I asked my dad about the rivalry(my parents are from East Timor, left a few years after Indonesia took over and started culling everything) and he said something about that they would fight each other or something.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1648798.htm

There's the link that mentioned armed forces killing police. Too many factions. DAMN!

Some of my cousins are from ET. they baled in the late 70's, evacuated to Darwin and eventually discovered that marrying one of my uncles was a good thing. ;)

back on topic though - its actually more complicated than that as well.

the police and armed forces have their own divisions. - so its just not army against police against rebels against militia.

this is a clan war as much as it is an idealogical war, as much as it is a racial war, as much as it is a "pay dispute".

the whole thing has been appallingly handled by the ET Govt - and they are just as divided as the armed opponents.

[Aussie Digger]

Downer mentioned it in an I/V done 48 hrs ago on Ch9



There are certainly some in the Indon Govt who see it as "I told you they weren't ready" situation. There are also some who still resent the fact that ET is a separate entity.



Not in their interest, as if we became machiavellian, we could make their life very hard in the other provinces who are also itching to break away.



Bloody atrocious, I hope someone in DMO is paying attention to the amount of NS gear thats being used as they don't have confidence in issued gear.

It's a dogs breakfast.

They are SASR and 4RAR troopers in those photo's. DMO might buy kit on their behalf, but it ain't from mainstream acquisition projects. It's from Redfin...

Being a "Command" SOCOMD has a lot more latitude with what it orders, from what I understand, the fact that the kit is found nowhere else in ADF makes little difference...

[pepsi]

According to the news yesterday, it was relatively calm after the Australian soldiers secured the airport and started doing some patrols and stuff

But later that day i think was when the UN office got surrounded, but also today apparently there has been more violence

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19272198-2,00.html

"Where are the Australians?" asked the man, who identified himself only as Constantine. "They promised to save us."

I wonder why he had to ask that, wouldn't we be doing quite substantial patrols by now?

Either way, according to that article it seems we have stepped up the intensity of patrols since yesterday anyway

WITH a major part of the Australian force now on the ground in Dili, troops were moving out into the city to guard key points and to oversee disengagement of warring factions, the Australian Defence Force said.

I wonder if those Tiger ARH's would have been userful for this, for a few patrols around the hill areas, an article yesterday said black hawks were going around in an attempt to 'intimidate' the forces, although i don't know about the accuracy of that because the article also described them as 'high powered attack helicopters' heh

[gf0012-aust]

They are SASR and 4RAR troopers in those photo's. DMO might buy kit on their behalf, but it ain't from mainstream acquisition projects. It's from Redfin...

The bloke with the orange bergin? the other 2 with black schoolbag napsacks?

[scraw]

Bloody atrocious, I hope someone in DMO is paying attention to the amount of NS gear thats being used as they don't have confidence in issued gear.

It's a dogs breakfast.

I was thinking that myself, from helmets to boots to packs, seems like they all visited a few stores at some stage.

[gf0012-aust]

I was thinking that myself, from helmets to boots to packs, seems like they all visited a few stores at some stage.

some of those blokes are SAS, but I'm guessing that a few of them are ADGies.

the thing with SAS blokes is that even when they don;t have std gear - they look right. some of those blokes just don't fit right.

woolies in townsville and darwin have made another killing on mars bars and camping gear ;)

[scraw]

some of those blokes are SAS, but I'm guessing that a few of them are ADGies.

the thing with SAS blokes is that even when they don;t have std gear - they look right. some of those blokes just don't fit right.

woolies in townsville and darwin have made another killing on mars bars and camping gear ;)

If you take a look at that whole thread I'm pretty sure I saw one bloke rocking a black helmet, leftover from TAG-EAST duties or something I guess. Between him and the guy with an orange pack it just looks really odd.

Net effect is zero of course, just strange looking.

[Snayke]

gf0012-aust - Most of my relatives who bailed from East Timor went to Portugal from Indonesia, worked there for a while then came to Australia. Anyone who didn't is still in East Timor or Indonesia. My grandma had a coffee farm there apparently. Much luck of getting that back. *sniffs*

But I've safely say all of us prefer to be in Australia and recognise ourselves as Australians now. Rather messed up in East Timor it seems. I'd agree with our government when they say it will be at least a year long deployment. I would suggest we stay there even if it's with a lesser force just to have a stabilising presence. The East Timorese most probably trust our soldiers over any of theirs. From what I've read in the news, even the different factions or the larger factions welcome our presence.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to have an active deployment constantly in a neighbouring nation. Would give our diggers field experience, even if it's quiet. This would count as a tour right? Means more pay? ;)

EDIT: The military has been supplying the militia. :\

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/military-stoking-the-murder-frenzy/2006/05/26/1148524886055.html

EDIT2: The gang and racial violence seems to overshadow the political divide now.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19272198-2,00.html

Sigh.. so sad.

[Padman]

Does anyone know the composition of NZ forces deploying? Also who thinks the NZDF wishes it had the MRV now?

[Aussie Digger]

The bloke with the orange bergin? the other 2 with black schoolbag napsacks?

Bergens? What are we, effing poms??? :D

I haven't seen anyone I thought was an Adgie yet. They somehow managed to sneak some MP-5's into their armouries (for what reason I have NO idea, all those CT operations they conduct I suppose!!!) but I have NEVER seen or heard of Adgies getting M4's. The "reason" SOCOMD were allowed them was the so-called benefit's of them for water ops compared to F-88's.

Adgies wouldn't go within 100 miles of the ocean... The only reason they'd need them is to boost their ego's so they can keep telling each other how "elite" they are... :rel

There's nothing wrong with "customisations" anyway. I still have a lovely set of Danner's I used to wear and a set of chest webbing that Army is still "humming and harring" over allowing nowadays...

Oh but you might be "out bush" and need a new one to replace it. Army's not going to give you Danner's and chest webbing. Maybe if they did digs wouldn't be customising the shite issued in the first place. Here I am 8 years later and my boots and chest webbing are still fine. If I'm out bush for 8 years you're not going to have to worry about my kit wearing out, I will...

[gf0012-aust]

I haven't seen anyone I thought was an Adgie yet. They somehow managed to sneak some MP-5's into their armouries (for what reason I have NO idea, all those CT operations they conduct I suppose!!!) but I have NEVER seen or heard of Adgies getting M4's. The "reason" SOCOMD were allowed them was the so-called benefit's of them for water ops compared to F-88's.

Adgies wouldn't go within 100 miles of the ocean... The only reason they'd need them is to boost their ego's so they can keep telling each other how "elite" they are... :rel


you sure about the M4 issue?

the reason I ask is because one of my female staff had her husband in ET in 99. He was part of the original Edinburgh AB Firies who were streamed into the ADGie role. When he was deployed to Dili he sent back happy snaps of himself driving the perimeter in a Landy and with an M4 on his lap.

and yes, they seem to think that they are the SOCOM equiv of the old USAF airfield protection force. ;)

[Magoo]

Here's some 4RAR guys (with M4s) with their new 171SQN mates. :D

Magoo

[old faithful]

ha ha! firies slotting into adgie roles!!:cool: adgies love to look warrie!! shame our A-Res grunts skills are much better! the bloke with the orange pack could be air traffic controler or some pouge attached to a spec unit where cam is irrellivent, didnt see it my self. as for customising equipment, weve disscussed this in other threads. Apart from being nessesary in some roles, unfortunatly a lot of digs these days suffer from acute "hollywood syndrome!" and that is a fact! Must look cool! recently ive seen pics of digs in various mags with face cam jobs that look like theve been done by make up artists, while the back of thier necks, wrists and neck remain un-camed....we used to pay out on yanks for this attitude,now it looks like weve joined em.:confused:

[Aussie Digger]

you sure about the M4 issue?

the reason I ask is because one of my female staff had her husband in ET in 99. He was part of the original Edinburgh AB Firies who were streamed into the ADGie role. When he was deployed to Dili he sent back happy snaps of himself driving the perimeter in a Landy and with an M4 on his lap.

and yes, they seem to think that they are the SOCOM equiv of the old USAF airfield protection force. ;)

He might have some snaps, but I can virtually guarantee HE wasn't issued with that weapon...

I like Adgies and have a good deal of respect for their capabilities, but they are just grunts in a particular (and liimited) role. There is nothing "special" about them, in a specwarrie sense...

[megatron]

Malaysians also send their troops in and met some "warm welcome" from the rogue soldiers.

DILI, May 27 (Bernama) -- Barely five hours after the Malaysian military team arrived at the Timor Leste International Airport here Saturday for a peacekeeping mission at the world's newest independent nation, they were given "a hostile reception" by an unknown party believed to be aligned to the sacked Timor Leste military group at a nearby village.

The attack on the Beto Village occurred at 11.45am local time today when the Malaysian Special Mission team was just settling down with their equipment at the Timor Leste Police Academy, about a 20-minute drive from Dili city.

Beto Village is one of the villages located outside the police academy.

This reporter who followed the team to Dili observed that a member of the Malaysian military team, consisting of army paratroopers and commandos, had noticed a house on fire at the Beto Village and saw some movements of rebels at the village.

Realising that the trend of the rebel group was to attack police personnel and destroy villagers' houses, the team members were ordered to immediately duck and be prepared for any eventuality.

A group of Malaysian commandos were then sent to the village to observe the situation and patrol the area.

The Malaysian army had been taught the basic Tetum language, the spoken language by the locals, to introduce themselves as peacekeepers.

An Australian military helicopter was seen hovering the Beto Village and four trucks and a military tank were also seen heading towards Dili soon after.

Following the attack on the village, villagers around the area flocked to the police academy to seek refuge.

Soon after the incident, members of the Malaysian media initially supposed to stay with the army commandos were moved to another block as the police academy is believed to be one of the "hotspots" to be attacked by the rebels.

Six journalists, photographers and cameramen from the Malaysian National News Agency (Bernama), RTM and TV3 have joined the Malaysian troops in their peacekeeping mission.

The Timor Leste government earlier this week asked Australia, New Zealand, Portugal and Malaysia to send troops to help restore order.

Two Royal Malaysian Navy vessels -- "KD Mahawangsa" and "KD Inderasakti" -- are ferrying the equipment of the Malaysian troops, including armoured carriers. They left the Lumut naval base yesterday.

-- BERNAMA

[gf0012-aust]

NZ troops bound for Timor in Townsville

May 28, 2006 - 1:59PM

A company of 124 New Zealand soldiers will spend at least a second night in Townsville, Queensland, after leaving Christchurch on their way to join the Australian-led international stabilisation force in East Timor.

An infantry platoon of 42 arrived in Dili on Saturday night to prepare for the arrival of the New Zealand company which left on a Boeing 757.

New Zealand Defence Force spokesman Lieutenant Commander Andrew Lincoln said the company was going through "acclimatisation" in Townsville and waiting for more equipment, including ammunition and a light armoured vehicle, to arrive on a Hercules C-130 transporter plane.

There was still no confirmed date for the company to deploy in Dili.
"It could be as early as tomorrow, or Monday or Tuesday. But they'll be ready to go once they have the green light from the Government," Lt Cdr Lincoln told NZPA.

In Townsville, the soldiers were doing final equipment checks and fine-tuning to operate in the tropical heat.

"The platoon has arrived (in Dili) and is setting things up, so once the situation is clear the company will go in. Before you going into theatre there's lots of issues to sort out, like transport and where you're going to bunk down," Lt Cdr Lincoln said.

[scraw]

waiting for more equipment, including ammunition and a light armoured vehicle, to arrive on a Hercules C-130 transporter plane.

As in literally 1?

~170 guys and a single ride? The fight over those keys could get interesting ;)

I assume there's a boat headed west out in the Tasman somewhere?

[Whiskyjack]

As in literally 1?

~170 guys and a single ride? The fight over those keys could get interesting ;)

I assume there's a boat headed west out in the Tasman somewhere?

Interested to see if it is a LAV, may be a armoured Pinz, easier to get to Darwin using a C-130.

[Sea Toby]

It appears New Zealand could use more airlift, not to mention sealift. Its taking a long time to deploy to East Timor. Much too long. With the MRV the troops could acclimatise in route on the voyage instead of a point along the way.

[Sea Toby]

Yes, the MRV would come in handy now since one of its Boeing 757s is in the states receiving its cargo conversion upgrade. While the Boeing 757s and the ageing Hercules can move the troops quicker to a far destination, they can't haul all of the supplies and equipment quickly, even for a lighter force this time. Yes, the cargo conversion of the Boeing 757s would come in handy now too.

In my opinion since New Zealand is always deploying its forces long distances, maybe it should acquire a couple of C-17s too. At least they would be used, which many state wasn't the case with the air combat force.

While East Timor maybe a few hundred miles off the Australian coast, its a few thousand miles from New Zealand. Singapore and Malaysia are even further.

While the MRV wouldn't reach East Timor in a week, when it did it could carry 250 troops and all of their equipment, plus a few Hueys, and sustain them for a month in one trip. If the deployments lasted longer, the MRV could sail back to New Zealand and return in less than a month for resupply and sustain this for as long as necessary.

[Whiskyjack]

Yes, the MRV would come in handy now since one of its Boeing 757s is in the states receiving its cargo conversion upgrade. While the Boeing 757s and the ageing Hercules can move the troops quicker to a far destination, they can't haul all of the supplies and equipment quickly, even for a lighter force this time. Yes, the cargo conversion of the Boeing 757s would come in handy now too.

In my opinion since New Zealand is always deploying its forces long distances, maybe it should acquire a couple of C-17s too. At least they would be used, which many state wasn't the case with the air combat force.

While East Timor maybe a few hundred miles off the Australian coast, its a few thousand miles from New Zealand. Singapore and Malaysia are even further.

While the MRV wouldn't reach East Timor in a week, when it did it could carry 250 troops and all of their equipment, plus a few Hueys, and sustain them for a month in one trip. If the deployments lasted longer, the MRV could sail back to New Zealand and return in less than a month for resupply and sustain this for as long as necessary.

Yes logistics is a hassle. May be easier to store 5 LAVs AND 10 Pinz in Townsville or Darwin, to be used in small exercises and initial deployments to the North of Australia, deploy the troops to the equipment.

I think (unrealisticly I know) that NZ could fund 1 C-17 to be based with the RAAF C-17s and have access to 1 C-17 for use by NZDF. (Sorry for repeat of idea I have on another Thread.)

[Snayke]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

A combined millitary would mean a combined foregin policy, and Aus/NZ hasn't exactly seen eye to eye on several issues eg OIF

[Big-E]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

The day New Zealand becomes the next AU territory will be the day that happens... not likely.:o

[Supe]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

No thanks. I'm not for unification at the expense of influence from the NZ left. They'd run down our military. We'd be lucky to be left with our Armidales for the Navy, airlift for the airforce and the Army can wave bye bye to anything heavier than an ASLAV.

[Snayke]

Guess we'll stick to the good will we have then. :P

[buschy]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?
Well ya never know, maybe they'l ressurect the old ANZAC battalions. After all we do have a rich history of fighting side by side:cheers

[old faithful]

as late as 1994, E-coy 3RAR was NZ. Based in NZ, but the contingency was there, as was the doctrine. They visited us on one occassian,complete with 130 man Haka, very intimidateing. They were good blokes and good soldiers. dont know if it still exsists on paper or not....

[Supe]

For those who don't read Stratpage, I thought this GF summary on the complex situation in East Timor to be informative (I hope you don't mind GF):




Alkatiri can't stand Gusmao - and has actively avoided involving him as - he was trying to dilute his influence
Alkatiri has insisted on UN participation when the constitution actually doesn't require it. Once the represented Govt invites another country in, then its actually got nothing to do with the UN. Alkatiri however wants to take away any influence that the Aust Mil/Govt have as he knows that the current AustGov regards him as criminally negligent - and all the locals know that he is corrupt.
Alkatiri has been trying to get Chinese resources investment in country as payback to australia
Alkatiri has been promoting people within his clan group at the expense of the other major clan.
the rebel troops also have a significant faction aligned to the western timorese elements - and thus its also a tribal dispute for some elements. Although pay disputes have been touted, that is of minimal influence. The main beef is that see that Alkatiri is soft shuffling with communists and they don't want it.
Alkatiri can't stand Gusmao - and has actively avoided involving him as - he was trying to dilute his influence
the rebel troops also have a significant faction aligned to the western timorese elements - and thus its also a tribal dispute for some elements
the govt, pro govt troops are also from a different clan. they mistrust some of the rebels as they see them as being aligned to indonesia, whereas some rebels see that the pro govt troops are supporting a communist.
there are factions within the factions. there are tribal loyalty issues both within the police, the army, and the rebels
senior fretelin troops are suspected of providing arms to the militia and taking advantage of the more robust youth who have gone on a rampage. ironically they appear to be doing the very thing that pissed them off with the Indonesians in 99
Horta and Alkatiri sat on this too long. Primarily its also because Aust is on the schitt list, they resent the way that they were (as they see it) robbed of righful oil and gas rights. In essence they see that AustGov bullied them for their resources - also another reason why they're looking at Chinese money as it will send a message to the Aust Govt about the level of their discontent. They also know that they can't req chinese help or the whole thing would go to custard very quickly, and as much as we're on their schitt list, we're also critical to helping them survive.
Horta and Gusmao are aligned, Horta mistrusts Alkatiri
this is a clan war as much as it is an idealogical war, as much as it is a racial war, as much as it is a "pay dispute".
Alkatiri has accused Gusmao of inciting a coup and acting outside of his executive power. The comments re Gusmao are slightly flawed. he is an executive symbolic head anyway, he has no legal power to take charge of anything unless sanctioned by the Parliament/Govt.
Alkitiri is way outside of his skillset. He's got into the role due to factional loading. Think of it as a variation of "branch stacking"
the govt troops are predominately pro-australian
both govt troops and rebel troops have had their leaders trained in australia
the head of the rebels is a Naval Lt Cdr - even though the press call him a "Major"
the president is pro australian and has an australian wife
the secretary of the parliament is pro-australian
the majority of the civilians are pro-australian
as an aside, if the Indons are paying attention, they will also be pro-australian in the sense that Prime Minister Alkatiri is regarded as pro-communist - and they despise the communists. they also need Aust to manage it quickly as they don't want spillover into their problem provinces

all in all, its a classic cluster on their Govts part.



http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/30-78058.asp

[Snayke]

That naval lt commander was demoted while he was in the navy, wasn't he? That's what he said anyway. Demoted down to a desk job.

[robsta83]

I like the fact and it just goes to show the strength of the US-Aus alliance that when requested the USAF sent two C-17's for airlift support, sure they did the same in the orignal but that was global scale etc, this is low scale you ned some help here it is... fantastic.

In terms of Aus NZ forces merger, I think the Navy and Airforce, Airforce 100 percent ommonality ie lift, maritime patrol, helicopters, and the navy is already pretty close, the only better thing they could of done was get Armidales rather than the IPVs.

[Snayke]

Hey that's quite an idea. Merging individual branches. I think both navies merging or at least integrating a bit would be very benficial. It goes without saying that each nation would aid each other if they were attacked unprovoked.

[robsta83]

Exactly, a combination of traing schools, would be the first starting point, why should New Zealand lease multi engined training aircraft when australia has them and use them to train for the exact type aircraft Orions & Hercs, it there would be financial contribution of course, Officers already go to the ADF Academy and Duntroon so it would not be a stretch what is need is a concerted push by the NZ gov to developing holding capabilties. Perhaps I'll start a new thread to discuss it.

[rossfrb_1]

I won't post all the text of this rubbish. What I want to know is, who stands to gain from publishing this crap?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jun2006/newz-j08.shtml
"
New Zealand joins Australia’s military occupation of East Timor

By John Braddock
8 June 2006

The New Zealand Labour government last month dispatched nearly 200 troops to support the Australian-led military occupation of East Timor. Underlining the close Australian and New Zealand collaboration in neo-colonial exercises throughout the region, the contingent includes soldiers who were deployed in the initial 1999 intervention in East Timor, some who had recently served in the Solomon Islands, and a group of military police just returned from Afghanistan.
Using social unrest and the fracturing of East Timor’s security forces as the pretext, the Australian government pressed Dili into issuing an “invitation” on May 24 and immediately began landing 1,300 troops as well as additional support staff and police. New Zealand troops were not far behind. The barely disguised purpose of the intervention is to effect a “regime change” in the impoverished statelet and tighten Canberra’s grip on oil and gas resources in the region.
The rapidity with which New Zealand joined the venture is a measure of Labour’s complete accommodation to Washington and Canberra. Like Australia, New Zealand regards the Asia-Pacific region as its own “backyard”, where it has longstanding strategic, business and trading interests. Plans have recently been mooted to revive the extensive use of Pacific peoples as a source of imported cheap labour.
As Australian Prime Minister John Howard has assumed the role of Washington’s “deputy sheriff” in the region, his New Zealand counterpart Helen Clark has tagged along as the deputy’s assistant. In providing support whenever and wherever required, Wellington expects a quid pro quo—US and Australian backing for its own interests in the Pacific.
Clark justified the latest intervention in East Timor, by decrying the “loss of law and order” and calling for a “robust show of force” to deal with the situation. Defence Minister Phil Goff proclaimed that the vast majority of the population would “welcome the presence of the Kiwis and the Aussies” and the “ability of our troops to provide them protection and take life back to normal”. Events quickly proved the opposite....."

[Snayke]

Too bad the East Timorese people disagree with his opinions, however wrong they are. Besides, it's a politcally biased website.

[gf0012-aust]

crikey, it reminds me of the university era during vietnam!

no surprise that a socialist newspaper would be batting for a country thats been prime ministered by one of the last of the marxists - and a mozambique marxist at that.

pity that they have no idea whats going on. I've got a few relatives in ET who would love to shake their hand - NOT

[scraw]

I know it's wrong but I'm having a good giggle at the idea of the Kiwis as imperialists.

Of anglo nations they're probably the last one you'd tag and the poor guys still cop a flogging! :D

Edit: GF, no need for the Vietnam era qualifier, at least in Melbourne. By far the most visible in terms of posters, pamplets, people asking you to donate to this or attend that is the Socialist Alliance (no really, that's their name). Believe me some of the stuff they come up with is from the same fertile field as the above.

[abramsteve]

Just another load of rubbish from those left over from the Vietnam era, who were/are quick to preach how open minded and new age they are, yet seem to be living in the past.

The empire of New Zealand hey........ HAHAHAHAHA
Sorry:)

[gf0012-aust]

I know it's wrong but I'm having a good giggle at the idea of the Kiwis as imperialists.

Of anglo nations they're probably the last one you'd tag and the poor guys still cop a flogging! :D



I almost fell off my perch laughing at the thought of the Kiwis, let alone Helen Clark being the running dog of some neo-colonialist and imperial power belting the micronesians.

That comment alone showed how far detached they were from reality.

[Snayke]

I hope it's satire, actually. Someone tell me it's satire... I mean, I didn't know people who thought like this existed. :\

Hell, he doesn't know what it's like to be in East Timor right nor or pre-1999, so I don't think he has a right to comment on how the East Timorese are being colonized even though it's a crock of shit. He doesn't whine about the Indonesians when they were under a military dictatorship.

I suppose under totalitarian regimes, they become socialist right as all aspects of the economy are controlled by the government. Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong.

[Big-E]

Your going to enslave the Polynesians for cheap labor? To bad you don't have a border with Mexico... problem solved.:lol3

[NZLAV]

The NZ IPV is quite a nice design, it has twice the spped of the old ones, twice the size and 3 times the firepower. There isn't a signficant difference between the NZIPV and the Armidale. It has a different mast and 3 .50cal's instead of a 25mm and it is heavier. Any other differences?

[Sea Toby]

I was under the impression the New Zealand IPVs being built by Tenix was of the design Tenix bidded for the Australian patrol boat contract. However, Austral won the Australian contract with their Armidale design and bid. Frankly, one could install the 25-mm gun on the New Zealand IPV easily. Otherwise, the designs are very similar.

And yes, the new IPVs New Zealand is acquiring is a much better ship than the former Australian Freemantles, and a much better ship than what New Zealand had previously. Both nations have shown considerable improvement for their new patrol boats. Frankly, I would like to see a race between the two, Auckland to Sydney, and see which one wins. Hee! Hee!

While I wouldn't consider New Zealand as imperialists, I can see a time in the future an Australia too involved and overwhelmed with deployments abroad where New Zealand may have to go it alone in the South Pacific doing a peacekeeping mission or a humanitarian mission. New Zealand shouldn't count that Australia will always be available, and vice a versa.

[Subangite]

Do the Aussies have overall coordinating control and command of the Kiwi, Malaysian and Portuguese troops??

[Aussie Digger]

Do the Aussies have overall coordinating control and command of the Kiwi, Malaysian and Portuguese troops??

Yes particularly with the co-ordination role, though each element is under it's own command and control and reports to it's own higher elements.

Australian commanders however delegate taskings for the particular force elements, based on tactical need and the requests of the ET Governement, but each element decide themselves how they will achieve it. A complicated system, but one which seems to be working, so far...

[Subangite]

Thanks Aussie Digger, I guess that makes sense, I mean the Aussies deployed the largest number of troops amongst them.

Anyways, I understand why the ET govt. asked for assistance from Australia (near neighbour) and Portugal (colonial masters), I can understand apprehension against inviting Indonesia but why ask assistance from Malaysia and New Zealand?? Any particular unique qualities the Kiwi and Malaysian troops provide for the Australian led intervention and for the ET govt?

[robsta83]

As far as Malaysia goes it could be good relations exercise but more as they are asking 3 western powers for help one of whom was a ex colonial master, by asking an asian country for assistance it doesn't look so much as like that East Timor is looking for a new one under Australia as has been mentioned fringe groups already call this intervention imperialist, as for New Zealand they were with Australia from the get go and have excellent relations with Timor and still have Kiwi officers stationed as UN advisors, again by asking more than just Australia it looks like a concerted Multi-National effort to help East Timor break through its growing pains.

[gf0012-aust]

Do the Aussies have overall coordinating control and command of the Kiwi, Malaysian and Portuguese troops??

Yes and No.

Aust has military control of Australian, New Zealand and Malaysian forces. Australia also has management control of ANZAC and Malaysian police forces. The UN is also happy with an Australian command because it was signed off to and agreed to by all 3 levels of the Timor Leste executive - so its a legal and binding condition that was determined by the local Govt.

The Portuguese don't have a military presence - they have a Police presence and their forces answer to the President.

[Supe]

The Portugese contingent won't be under Australian command. Idiotic really. They'd be better off not going to East Timor if they don't want to integrate into a unified force structure.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1654401.htm

[Snayke]

Last I heard the Australians did not want to command the police force in East Timor, whatever nationality.

Those Portuguese military police seem to be going there to act as police, not military. :\

[Big-E]

Last I heard the Australians did not want to command the police force in East Timor, whatever nationality.

Those Portuguese military police seem to be going there to act as police, not military. :\

In E. Timor I would like to know what the difference b/w military and police really are.

[Subangite]

Portugal's foreign minister accused Australia of interfering in East Timor's internal affairs after Australian Prime Minister John Howard said in a television interview that the Asian country had not been governed well over the past few years.

Lets all admit it, ET hasn't been governed well, if it was, there wouldn't be a need for an Australian led intervention force in the first place.

[Cootamundra]

Last I heard the Australians did not want to command the police force in East Timor, whatever nationality.

Those Portuguese military police seem to be going there to act as police, not military. :\

Not idiotic from Portugal's point of view.

IMHO Portugal is one of the reasons why Timor Lieste is in such a bad way. Portugal stuffed up the administration of the territory before and after WW2. They deserted their old colony in the 1970s and then left them high and dry when the Indo's invaded. Australia stood back because we knew that Uncle Sam and the British were not interested in a war with Indonesia and at the time placating the Indonesians was high on everyones list as countering the threat of communisim was considered much more important. Since then Portugal's efforts in aiding the developing nation of East Timor have been haphazzard at best. Their flawed constitution has its origins in the Portugese constitution and their Prime Minister spent a lot of time over ther. Perhaps Portugal has other (unstated) interests?! Maybe not, as GF pointed out the paramilitary police unit is meant to report to the ET President.

[marxist_command]

Not idiotic from Portugal's point of view.

IMHO Portugal is one of the reasons why Timor Lieste is in such a bad way. Portugal stuffed up the administration of the territory before and after WW2. They deserted their old colony in the 1970s and then left them high and dry when the Indo's invaded. Australia stood back because we knew that Uncle Sam and the British were not interested in a war with Indonesia and at the time placating the Indonesians was high on everyones list as countering the threat of communisim was considered much more important. Since then Portugal's efforts in aiding the developing nation of East Timor have been haphazzard at best. Their flawed constitution has its origins in the Portugese constitution and their Prime Minister spent a lot of time over ther. Perhaps Portugal has other (unstated) interests?! Maybe not, as GF pointed out the paramilitary police unit is meant to report to the ET President.

Indo's Invade?:confused:

C'mon guys, read your history book once more
Indo never invade Timor Lest.
It's their own decision to join Us

[robsta83]

Well invasion then annexation if you will but no they didn't choose, nine days after declared a independant nation from Portugal after its withdrawl '75 if I'm not mistaken, no offence Mr Command but your history books would most likely be a bit different to the rest of the world, they were allowed by the rest of world because of communist fears, but this may nearly be to political so I'll end it there
:wave