Greek and Turkish jets 'collide'

[SABRE]

Greek and Turkish fighter jets have collided in mid-air over the southern Aegean sea, Greek officials say.

The collision happened near to the island of Karpathos and a search and rescue effort is under way.

One defence official said the jets were shadowing each other when the crash happened. The pilots' fate is unknown.

Greece and Turkish warplanes frequently intercept each other in the Aegean, where they dispute airspace and territorial waters.

In the past, the two have come close to armed conflict in the area.

"The planes collided during interception manoeuvres above Karpathos," a defence ministry official was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying.

Source: BBC World News
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5008178.stm



According to latest report it were Greek F-16 and Turkish R-F4 that collided togather.

[Big-E]

[SIZE=2]


According to latest report it were [B]Greek F-16 and Turkish R-F4 that collided togather.

Considering it occured in Greek airspace I think the Turks have some explaining to do. :eek

[SABRE]

Considering it occured in Greek airspace I think the Turks have some explaining to do. :eek

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4;).

[beleg]

A TuAF F-16 blk50 (probably) collided with a Greek blk52+ 35 nm south of Rhodes in international waters of Mediterenean. Turkish pilot has been rescued by a Turkish merchant ship in the region. No news of the Greek pilot yet.

[Scorpion82]

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4;).

A Mirage 2000 shot down a F-16? Sounds unbelieveable. I know there were often such mock up dog fights between turkish and greek fighters, but I never heared that one of both had ever shot down the opposite.

[SABRE]

A TuAF F-16 blk50 (probably) collided with a Greek blk52+ 35 nm south of Rhodes in international waters of Mediterenean. Turkish pilot has been rescued by a Turkish merchant ship in the region. No news of the Greek pilot yet.

From the news I am hearing, it was Turkish F-4. (Let me do some digging)


A Mirage 2000 shot down a F-16? Sounds unbelieveable. I know there were often such mock up dog fights between turkish and greek fighters, but I never heared that one of both had ever shot down the opposite.

Believe it. Do some google search on it. I thin it was similar situation, except that TUAF F-16 was unarmed (according to TUAF Spokesman -- even if it wsnt it dint fire at Helnaic Mirage2000). The story was kept from public knowledge for some time but Greeks reported it.

[Big-E]

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4;).

Considering Karpathos and all the islands around it are Greek airspace the Turkish F-4 was in violation of FIR Athens. Turkey participated and accepted the ICAO boundries and regulations. Just b/c they decided to issue NOTAM 714 doesn't mean they get to break international law. If Turkey does not have the intelligence to read the document they signed which states:

"In accordance with the ICAO regulations and with international practice, all aircraft, civil and military alike, must submit proper notification before crossing the FIR."

They continue to assume military aircraft do not apply to the rules which are clearly stated, I guess they don't consider an R-F4 a military aircraft.

The fact that they were moc dog fighting clearly goes against the ROE of NATO. These exercises are supposed to be conducted under supervision and safety conditions not at the behest of some hot-shot pilots. It is exactly this kind of disregard for ROE that gets these pilots killed. I know that the rules laid down by Greek commanders strictly forbids this, the fact that Turkey withdrew NOTAM 714 doesn't prevent the fact that they promote pilots to cross the FIR and Greek pilots must intercept them. They are not to engage in aerial maneuvers with the hostil unless lit up or fired upon, these are the Greek ROE! So unless this pilot was lit up or fired upon he broke the rules and is now dead. We have studied the Greek/Turkey situation as an example of what not to do when dealing with hot-shot hostiles. If I ever hear of one my SWATLANT students pulling this kind of stunt I will ground them personally! This is the kind of stunt that gets us killed, disregard for the rules and adolescent behavior in the cockpit leads to tragedy. Now their mothers are gong to learn that there sons died of stupity.:shudder




SAFETY FIRST!!!!

[beleg]

First of all as i said above both aircraft were F-16s. Greek one is a blk 52+ and Turkish one is most likely a blk50 since its from from 9AJU 192 sq.

Secondly Big-E, i dont think you are in a position to judge our intelligence.

They continue to assume military aircraft do not apply to the rules which are clearly stated, I guess they don't consider an R-F4 a military aircraft.

Is not a very intelligent sentence in itself since the first part conflicts with second part.

Aegean problem is a complex problem and cannot be tied only to FIR. Starting from militarization of demiliterised islands to territorial waters and airspace problems, gray zones to FIR its a difficult situation to solve. Events like these will continiue to occur as long as problems are not solved.

Since you are hoisting the flag of a nation that shoots first and asks later you dont have right to tell us or teach us how this game is played. We Turks have been around long enough to know both politics and warfare.

[Big-E]

Secondly Big-E, i dont think you are in a position to judge our intelligence.

Did I judge the intelligence of the commanders of the Turk Hava Kuvvetleri who continually put their and Hellenic pilots in harms why by constantly breaking the rules of the ICAO (which they signed)? They must be unconscious then. My bad.


They continue to assume military aircraft do not apply to the rules which are clearly stated, I guess they don't consider an R-F4 a military aircraft.

I was being facisious.



Aegean problem is a complex problem and cannot be tied only to FIR. Starting from militarization of demiliterised islands to territorial waters and airspace problems, gray zones to FIR its a difficult situation to solve. Events like these will continiue to occur as long as problems are not solved.



It is not a complex problem, it is a simple matter of obeying international law! Turkey agreed to the ICAO and the FIR Athens. Considering the incident occured near Karpathos which is well inside FIR Athens, well inside Greek territorial waters and Greek airspace; there is no contest unless Turkey wants to invade Rhodes and Karpathos! Just b/c Turkey disregards her own agreements does not mean she has the right to endanger the lives of Hellenic pilots trying to enforce Greek sovereignty. I am impressed with the Hellas ability of self control. If Cuban Migs were flying over Key West I would shoot them down!


Since you are hoisting the flag of a nation that shoots first and asks later you dont have right to tell us or teach us how this game is played. We Turks have been around long enough to know both politics and warfare.

I obey the ROEs of NATO, Turkey does not.

[WAR]

Here is the Map of collision site, as posted by CNN on their web page.

[SABRE]

Greek, Turkish fighter planes shadowing each other collide over Aegean Sea



ATHENS, Greece (AP) - Warplanes from Greece and Turkey collided over the Aegean Sea island of Karpathos as they shadowed each other Tuesday. Officials said the Turkish pilot was rescued unhurt and a search was underway for the Greek pilot.

Fighter planes from the two NATO allies frequently intercept each other over the Aegean, mostly in areas of disputed airspace.


The Turkish military identified both planes as F-16 fighter jets and said the Turkish pilot, 1st Lieut. Halil Ibrahim Ozdemir, was rescued by a merchant ship. Greek authorities said a search was underway for the pilot of the Greek plane.


Authorities in Greece initially said there were two Turks aboard the Turkish plane, but later said only one was aboard. The government in Ankara only made reference to Ozdemir.


"It appears the incident occurred while the Greek plane was intercepting the Turkish jet," Greek government spokesman Evangelos Antonaros said.


Greece says its national airspace extends to 16 kilometres, but Turkey recognizes only nine kilometres - the same distance as territorial waters. Long-standing disputes over airspace and territorial rights in the Aegean have nearly led to three wars between them since 1974.


Relations between Greece and Turkey have been steadily deteriorating in recent months, despite Athens' promotion of Turkey's candidacy to join the European Union and Premier Costas Caramanalis' personal friendship with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.


Turkish Defence Minister Vecdi Gonul said his country's chief of staff was in contact with his Greek counterpart over the incident.


"An F-16 belonging to the Turkish air forces crashed in the air with an F-16 belonging to the Greek air forces and both planes fell," the Turkish military said, adding that the incident was under investigation.


The Greek Defence Ministry said the planes crashed into the sea 20 kilometres south of Karpathos.


The Greek jet was based at Souda Air Force base on the island of Crete.


Link: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=6ece3fab-fb67-4faf-b56b-74c8d9d298e1&k=45402




Well this confirms what beleg said few posts above. The TUAF aircraft was F-16 not R-F4.

And here is a 3 page "Reuters" link (too big to post it here): http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-05-23T134238Z_01_L23774801_RTRUKOC_0_US-GREECE-TURKEY.xml&archived=False

[beleg]

It is not a complex problem, it is a simple matter of obeying international law! Turkey agreed to the ICAO and the FIR Athens. Considering the incident occured near Karpathos which is well inside FIR Athens, well inside Greek territorial waters and Greek airspace; there is no contest unless Turkey wants to invade Rhodes and Karpathos! Just b/c Turkey disregards her own agreements does not mean she has the right to endanger the lives of Hellenic pilots trying to enforce Greek sovereignty. I am impressed with the Hellas ability of self control. If Cuban Migs were flying over Key West I would shoot them down!


It is a complex problem. Your very post above shows your arrogance in the subject. While Greece claims a 10 nm airspace in the aegean(despite their 6nm territorial waters. only country in the world with airspace bigger than territorial waters.) Turkey recognises only 6nm airspace and conducts flights that show in action that we dont accept their sovreignity over the region.Again i am repeating This flight as well as other Turkish exercises in Aegean and Mediterenean was reported to NATO HQ before it was conducted.

So any event which happens 16 km away from a Greek island (bigger than 6nm) is NOT Greek airspace.

Unfortunately the Greek pilot is killed. RIP. :(

[341-Phalanx]

ICAO : The International CIVIL Aviation Organization

[Big-E]

The Greek Defence Ministry said the planes crashed into the sea 20 kilometres south of Karpathos. Under UNCLOS Karpathos territorial waters extend 22km, Turkey is in violation and should be sued for the loss of the Hellenic F-16 and perhaps the pilot if not found.

[341-Phalanx]

FIR : FLIGHT INFORMATION REGION (for civil flights)

Athens FIR is not greece air space.

[341-Phalanx]

22km = 13.670200206295748 miles

greek and turkish air space involve 6 miles from land or islands..

[Big-E]

ICAO : The International CIVIL Aviation Organization

Just b/c it is civil does not preclude the obligation of Turkish pilots to file a flight plan and notify FIR Athens of there approach. If USN pilots didn't have permission to fly over Pakistan during OPEF we would have been intercepted and shot down.

[beleg]

Under UNCLOS Karpathos territorial waters extend 22km, Turkey is in violation and should be sued for the loss of the Hellenic F-16 and perhaps the pilot if not found.

Turkey is NOT a part to UNCLOS thus has no need to obey the legistations or decisions in the said agreement. Please update your information!

[Big-E]

Turkey is NOT a part to UNCLOS thus has no need to obey the legistations or decisions in the said agreement. Please update your information!

I never said Turkey was part of UNCLOS, but Karpathos (Greece) is. I'm not going to argue this anymore but that Turkish pilot had no business being where he was and he possibly caused the death of a Hellenic pilot. Either negotiate or go to war and get it over, these so called accidents have to stop. :shudder

[beleg]

Just b/c it is civil does not preclude the obligation of Turkish pilots to file a flight plan and notify FIR Athens of there approach. If USN pilots didn't have permission to fly over Pakistan during OPEF we would have been intercepted and shot down.

I am bored to repeat since you dont seem to read i am repeating it last time.
Turkey reporst every exercise over Aegean or Med. to NATO HQ. When you fly over Pakistan you are IN their airspace. When you fly 16 km east of Karpat you are in International airspace. 2 different things.

[beleg]

I never said Turkey was part of UNCLObS, but Karpathos (Greece) is.

So according to your logic if Cuba groups up with a few other countries and signes a treaty saying that her national airspace and tw is 500nm, USA will agree to that?

What Greece accepts is irrelevant. Turkey is not bound by the law of UNCLOS thus cannot be accused of violating it.

Greece has to solve this complex problem with Turkey, if not these unpleasent things will continiue, harming both countries socially and economically.

[341-Phalanx]

Just b/c it is civil does not preclude the obligation of Turkish pilots to file a flight plan and notify FIR Athens of there approach.

You don't wanna understand i think. Military aircrafts dont have to notify FIR.

[KWSN-Men]

They were mocking each other. I mean they were having a mock Dog fight and scare each other away. This is not un usual between the two, infact it is said it is regular conflict. Some times back a Greek Mirage2000 shot down a unarmed Turkish F-16 on recon flight, they dint give much explainations either. I guess both are even on the F-16s, except that Turkey lost its F-4;).

The Turkish pilot was rescued by a merchant ship with Panamese flag, 'Gas Century', that belongs to the Japanese company Yamamaru.

When the Greek SAR Super Puma wnt to pick him up, he refused to get on board and even pulled his gun.

And they were not mocking each other, as usual, the Greek fighter was intercepting the Turkish one.

[KWSN-Men]

First of all as i said above both aircraft were F-16s. Greek one is a blk 52+ and Turkish one is most likely a blk50 since its from from 9AJU 192 sq.

Secondly Big-E, i dont think you are in a position to judge our intelligence.

Is not a very intelligent sentence in itself since the first part conflicts with second part.

Aegean problem is a complex problem and cannot be tied only to FIR. Starting from militarization of demiliterised islands to territorial waters and airspace problems, gray zones to FIR its a difficult situation to solve. Events like these will continiue to occur as long as problems are not solved.

Since you are hoisting the flag of a nation that shoots first and asks later you dont have right to tell us or teach us how this game is played. We Turks have been around long enough to know both politics and warfare.

It is not complex, Turkey has signed internetional treaties but has decided they are not serving it's interests anymore so they say that there are gray areas. In my country they say that you must be carefull were you put your .... and your signature. I guess Turkey wasn't, so they say that what they signed is no more...

Is the Greek FIR something all countries have agreed on? Is Turkey the only country disputing it? Does this say something about Turkey?

Are the Eastern Agean islands militarised? They sure are. Should they be by international treaties? No. Is it nessecary for them to be militarised? Yes, since on the opposite coast there is the 'Agean Army', loaded with landing boats.

Events like this will continue to occur as far as the Turkish 'gray' government, the Turkish Army, continues to be agressive and not obide to International Law.

[KWSN-Men]

It is a complex problem. Your very post above shows your arrogance in the subject. While Greece claims a 10 nm airspace in the aegean(despite their 6nm territorial waters. only country in the world with airspace bigger than territorial waters.) Turkey recognises only 6nm airspace and conducts flights that show in action that we dont accept their sovreignity over the region.Again i am repeating This flight as well as other Turkish exercises in Aegean and Mediterenean was reported to NATO HQ before it was conducted.

So any event which happens 16 km away from a Greek island (bigger than 6nm) is NOT Greek airspace.

Unfortunately the Greek pilot is killed. RIP. :(

Actually, by Internatioal Law, Greece can expand it territorial waters and national waters at 12nm. Turkey has stated that if Greece excercises it's right, it's casus belli. Greece, being interested in stability and growth has decided not to excercise this right for now. Turkey is taking advantage of this in order to raise more and more claims.

If Turkey wants to conduct exersises, even in international airspace, it has to report to the FIR that this airspace belongs to. Turkey never reports it's flight plans to the Athens FIR. Thus, the aircraft are considered hostile and intercepted.

[KWSN-Men]

You don't wanna understand i think. Military aircrafts dont have to notify FIR.

The incident was first reported by the Egyptian Air pilot, flying the 797 flight from Cairo to Vienna while being at 34,000 feet. He reported a big flash 2000 feet below him. That is a bit more than half a kilometer. How does this comply with internetional flight safety regulations?

Were the fighters supposed to be there? No.

And lets admit you are right about the Greek airspace. Tell me something else. How long does it take a fighter to fly a 7nm distance? Have Turkish fighters ever overflown Greek islands and islets? I know, I know, it is just the 'gray' ones, right?

[beleg]

Once you engage in a dogfight its natural to violate Greek airspace due to to extreme velocity of the aircraft.

Aegean Army was found years AFTER Greece started to militerise Eastern Aegean and Docadanese islands.

[gf0012-aust]

Time to pause fella's.

I don't want to see an outbreak of hostilties between the Greek and Turkish members on here.

[beleg]

Totally agree with you gf0012-aust. One valuable man is still missing assumed dead. We dont need piss contest or spit fights. Now everyone should pray for his safety for the sake of his family and kids. :(

[KWSN-Men]

Time to pause fella's.

I don't want to see an outbreak of hostilties between the Greek and Turkish members on here.

So it was fine when the Turkish members of the forum was posting their opinions on the matter, but not when the other side was heard? Or was it fine that an American member was posting his opposite views but when a Greek does it's a no-no?

If you are interested in preventing hostilities, you should, imho, address the issues when members from a country start posting their views in the first place, not when somebody throws in some counterweight....

[WebMaster]

Lets not play the victim card. Both sides are at fault and if other members were doing something inappropriate, you should have pointed it out to the admins/mods rather than replying and joining the circus.

Rules:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php and they APPLY to EVERYONE, regardless of their country, religion or opinion.

[beleg]

DATE: 24.05.2006
BULLETIN NO : 08

There published/aired diverse news on mass media about the collision and crash of Turkish and Greek F-16 fighters on May 23, 2006. Upon examination of said news it is deemed as necessary to make a press release on the accident based on the true information.

One F-4 accompanied by two F-16 fighters took off from Dalaman Airport at 12:30C on May 23, 2006, for the planned routine training flight in the international airspace over the Mediterranen Sea. Greek authorities dispatched two Greek F-16 fighters to intercept our fighters. Greek F-16s in violation of International Civilian Aviation Organization (ICAO) engagement rules (which provide 1000 feet security zone) harrassed our fighters coming closer to less than provided for security distance. On 12.48C hrs, while our fighters continue their routine mission without any maneouvers a fastly approaching Greek F-16 crashed from behind and below Turkish F-16 without entering any engagements to our aircraft (there was no dogfight). As a result of the collision both aircrafts crashed, and Turkish pilot survived after ejected. The incident took place 33 nm south of Rhodes (Rodos), and 35 nm east of Karpathos (Kerpe) islands (3524N, 2750E) in the international airspace. Our pilot first rescued by a Panama flag vessel, and then by a Turkish search and rescue helicopter and brought to Fethiye State Hospital. The health condition of the pilot is allright and he has returned back to his mission.

translation by modus@acig,

Official statement by TuAF about the incident.

[KWSN-Men]

Lets not play the victim card. Both sides are at fault and if other members were doing something inappropriate, you should have pointed it out to the admins/mods rather than replying and joining the circus.

Rules:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php and they APPLY to EVERYONE, regardless of their country, religion or opinion.

So what about official press releases? Are we allowed to comment those? Because the one posted has more holes than swiss cheese...

[WebMaster]

I suggest, post press releases from both sides.

[HateBreed]

this has happened before and happens often, however, a collision is the first timer. a few months back, the turks intercepted a flight of greek falcons with their own. they buzzed right around them. things were even more so serious at that particular event because the grecian defense minister was also sitting in one of the greek f16, although no one shot down anyone, it was a close call.

[gf0012-aust]

So it was fine when the Turkish members of the forum was posting their opinions on the matter, but not when the other side was heard? Or was it fine that an American member was posting his opposite views but when a Greek does it's a no-no?

Where did this come from? Like everyone else on here, the Mods have lives outside of the Forum. We therefore pick up on threads when we're logged on, or if we're alerted by a complaint.

We don't live on here, and we're not telepathic. We will however react as soon as we see something amiss.

If you are interested in preventing hostilities, you should, imho, address the issues when members from a country start posting their views in the first place, not when somebody throws in some counterweight....

See above.

I don't care whether its about Martians fighting Beagles or Roses waging war on Daffodils, the behaviour is unacceptable and the post will get a Mods attention because it serves no purpose except to panda to further national discontent.

When you look at the history of some of the posts in here you'll notice that in the norm they get 3 warnings, unless they go really off the rails in which case they'll get closed immediately.

This post is on 2 notices already. It's for everyones benefit to avoid the 3rd as it will mean topic closure.

[Pursuit Curve]

Does anyone know if the F-16's collided at the merge? I guess there isn't alot of info being released yet. Does anyone here that has fighter experience wish to comment? I would like to hear from anyone that has possibly been in a similar situation.

Also I just read that the Grek Pilot did not eject.

[type 209]

If someone could post an UNBIASED list of incidents between greek and turkish forces on air or sea and their locations and causes, outcomes etc it might shed some light onto this one and why it occured.

[Big-E]

Does anyone here that has fighter experience wish to comment?

I have commented and will sum it up. These pilots were engaged in Colorful Actions and had a major screw up. This is what happens when ACMs occur b/w novices. I taught this very procedure out of NATOPS, the info in this book and the Aegean counterparts will save your aircraft and your life, but you have to read it!

[KWSN-Men]

I have commented and will sum it up. These pilots were engaged in Colorful Actions and had a major screw up. This is what happens when ACMs occur b/w novices. I taught this very procedure out of NATOPS, the info in this book and the Aegean counterparts will save your aircraft and your life, but you have to read it!

Engagements like this happen almost every day over the Aegean, some days with tens of incidents. If you think about it, the accident ratio is quite low.

[Big-E]

Engagements like this happen almost every day over the Aegean, some days with tens of incidents. If you think about it, the accident ratio is quite low.

The point is these aircraft should never be in this position to begin with. If Hellenic pilots didn't have to intercept un-IDed inbounds this wholse issue would be resolved. The fact that they want to play tag with poor SA just compounds the problem.

[beleg]

1- The engagement happened in Mediterenean Sea.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=35.400000,27.833333&ll=35.398006,27.833862&spn=2.955147,5.372314&t=h&om=1
(thx saladdin for making a google map)

2- Greek sources had full info of Turkish flight and its route (as usual) via NATO Hq had they wanted to check they would.

3- After they IDed Turkish planes,checking their weapons load to see if they pose a threat (Like US aircraft did to russian bombers in skies off Alaska) ,they could have flown in a safe distance, but they rather preferred to engage, which is the main cause of the mishap.

4- Greek sources have not commented on how the accident happened yet.

5- US aircraft fly in locations they shouldnt fly too, including Aegean FIR and they dont report to Athens ? Whats with the hypocricy? Americans have right to Fly over Aegean and Med not informing involving FIR but TuAF which has shores on these seas cannot?

Q: Since you have recognized the Athens FIR a few moments ago so-called something which has been granted to Greece via the (inaudible) Convention, I wonder, do you recognize the Athens FIR? And number two, what is the relation between DoD and (inaudible)?

A: By using the term so-called, I was using that to give its full name. The FIR is called the flight information region. I didn't mean to minimize its importance in any way. But our policy towards the FIR is unchanged. We recognize that as a commercial flight zone that does not apply to military flights. U.S. military flights I should say.
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/1997/t12111997_t1211asd.html

[gf0012-aust]

Post locked for a week