Options for Brazil's navy

[contedicavour]

Brazil's Navy is retiring its last ex-USN Garcia class DDs. Its escort force is made up of 3 operational ex-RN Broadswords Batch 1 (4th in reserve) and of 6 modernized Niteroi frigates (no VLS though), plus 5 corvettes of the Inhauma class.
I heard rumours of a request to the USN for retired Spruance DDGs, plus other rumours on Royal Navy T42s that will be retired soon.

If we consider unlikely that Brazil would invest in new-build DDGs, which options is the likeliest according to you folks ?

cheers

[LancerMc]

Just from my experience from reading about Brazilian military procurement, that Brazil will opt for mothballed foreign systems. Every time their government wants to buy new build system either in the Navy or Airforce, things go to hell. I expect them to buy old USN and RN ships, and updating equipment and technology.

[Sea Toby]

Lately, and I presume in the future, Brazil budget will allow only for building new submarines and patrol vessels. The budget doesn't allow for the construction of new frigates, so buying used British or American frigates is in the cards. It appears the British are through unloading older ships, therefore, it seems in the near future of the Brazilian surface fleet will be OHPerrys and/or Spruances. If Canada decides to unload 3 or 4 of their City class frigates, I'm sure Brazil would be interested.

[contedicavour]

Does anybody know if the US Congress has authorized OHP or Spruance transfers to the Brazilian Navy ?

cheers

[ngyikai]

Brazil will be able to afford to buy any frigate if they sell Ronaldinho :)

[Jtimes2]

Does anybody know if the US Congress has authorized OHP or Spruance transfers to the Brazilian Navy ?

cheers

I don't think the Brazilians want Perrys; this spring the USN retired the SM-1/2 versions of Standard (and removed the single-arm launcher from the Perrys still in USN service). The limited amount of remaining SM-1 missiles, spare parts, and tech support will already be in high demand for the Perrys of Poland, Egypt, Spain, Turkey, Bahrain; etc.

There are about a half-dozen Spruance hulls in the USN reserve fleet; they would make an ideal candidate for replacing the Garcias but the Lula gov't is not keen on buying "yanqui" weapons; so ex-RN frigates are a more likely choice. Alternatively; the Garcias may not be replaced at all; Brazil is struggling to pay off the A-4K's for their carrier and their SSN project.

[brian00]

Brazil will be able to afford to buy any frigate if they sell Ronaldinho :)

Made me laugh even though it doesnt make much sense :p:

[Big-E]

I don't think the Brazilians want Perrys; this spring the USN retired the SM-1/2 versions of Standard (and removed the single-arm launcher from the Perrys still in USN service). The limited amount of remaining SM-1 missiles, spare parts, and tech support will already be in high demand for the Perrys of Poland, Egypt, Spain, Turkey, Bahrain; etc.

There are about a half-dozen Spruance hulls in the USN reserve fleet; they would make an ideal candidate for replacing the Garcias but the Lula gov't is not keen on buying "yanqui" weapons; so ex-RN frigates are a more likely choice. Alternatively; the Garcias may not be replaced at all; Brazil is struggling to pay off the A-4K's for their carrier and their SSN project.

I disagree with this assesment. One must look at the role of the Brazilian Navy before guessing at what platforms and systems she might want to purchase. Just looking at her surface ship roster; one plainly sees that this is an ASW navy first and foremost,then comes SSW and lastly AAW. I'm not saying that she doesn't want to expand AAW capabilities but their greatest threat is from enemy SSKs. Brazilian naval doctrine says to keep the fleet within range of shorebased air cover to make up for the lack of fleet AAW. The purchase of the Sao Paulo is a prime example of this doctrine, she is heavy with ASW assets with some anti-surface capability but little AAW.

With this said I would expect Brazil to purchase something along the lines of OHPs even with the SM-1s gone. She still has a good sonar suite, room for two good size helos and Exocets could easily replace her Harpoons which Brazil doesn't operate anyway. She's to get the Nulka missile decoy system and the Block 1B upgrade to her Phalanx all of which will greatly increase her survivabilty against sea-skimmers something the SM-1 was poor at engaging. Also she weighs in just under 4,000 tons and only requires a crew of 166 and her new Caterpiller engines will require even less manning and maintenance. All in all she will be a cheap and effective warship to operate that fits perfectly into Brazilian naval doctrine.


Now lets look at what would be involved with Brazil operating a Spruance DD. Brazil has little experience with 10,000t destroyers which will cause facility and refit problems. Her crew requirements incuding the helo are almost 400. The Mk41 launchers will end up empty. The Harpoons would not be a viable weapon for Brazil and be forced to switch to Exocet launchers. They have no Sea Sparrows or RAM launchers in service and would have to search for foreign cooperation to keep these systems operational. Spruance hulls on average are almost 10yrs older than OHP hulls. The maintenance, refit and operational costs of these ships will be enormous especially compared to OHPs which have 20 more years of service life. The only thing a Spruance in the hands of the Brazilian navy would be able to do better than OHP is shore bombardment. Their ASW (which is most important for BN) is virtually identical. Spruance is a much larger SSM/ASM target than OHP. Spruance really only has self-defense AAW capability which the Perry upgrades should even out in survivability.

[LuisII]

Hi, Brazil can opt to buy spanish F100 or Destroyers with european or USA weapons system.

Are not cheap to buy but are modern ships.

[Big-E]

Hi, Brazil can opt to buy spanish F100 or Destroyers with european or USA weapons system.

Are not cheap to buy but are modern ships.

How? they still haven't finished paying off for their previous acquisitions. Spanish F100s are under tech transfer stipulations since they contain AN/SPY-1D radar and all the missiles are American as well. Europe would be reluctant to sell PAAMS or FREMM type vessels b/c it would shift the balance of power unduly in Brazil's favor. France is only going to have two PAAMS DDGs, how would it look if Brazil has the same?:confused:

[contedicavour]

I disagree with this assesment. One must look at the role of the Brazilian Navy before guessing at what platforms and systems she might want to purchase. Just looking at her surface ship roster; one plainly sees that this is an ASW navy first and foremost,then comes SSW and lastly AAW. I'm not saying that she doesn't want to expand AAW capabilities but their greatest threat is from enemy SSKs. Brazilian naval doctrine says to keep the fleet within range of shorebased air cover to make up for the lack of fleet AAW. The purchase of the Sao Paulo is a prime example of this doctrine, she is heavy with ASW assets with some anti-surface capability but little AAW.

With this said I would expect Brazil to purchase something along the lines of OHPs even with the SM-1s gone. She still has a good sonar suite, room for two good size helos and Exocets could easily replace her Harpoons which Brazil doesn't operate anyway. She's to get the Nulka missile decoy system and the Block 1B upgrade to her Phalanx all of which will greatly increase her survivabilty against sea-skimmers something the SM-1 was poor at engaging. Also she weighs in just under 4,000 tons and only requires a crew of 166 and her new Caterpiller engines will require even less manning and maintenance. All in all she will be a cheap and effective warship to operate that fits perfectly into Brazilian naval doctrine.


Now lets look at what would be involved with Brazil operating a Spruance DD. Brazil has little experience with 10,000t destroyers which will cause facility and refit problems. Her crew requirements incuding the helo are almost 400. The Mk41 launchers will end up empty. The Harpoons would not be a viable weapon for Brazil and be forced to switch to Exocet launchers. They have no Sea Sparrows or RAM launchers in service and would have to search for foreign cooperation to keep these systems operational. Spruance hulls on average are almost 10yrs older than OHP hulls. The maintenance, refit and operational costs of these ships will be enormous especially compared to OHPs which have 20 more years of service life. The only thing a Spruance in the hands of the Brazilian navy would be able to do better than OHP is shore bombardment. Their ASW (which is most important for BN) is virtually identical. Spruance is a much larger SSM/ASM target than OHP. Spruance really only has self-defense AAW capability which the Perry upgrades should even out in survivability.

Thks Big-E, exactly the sort of assessment I was looking for.
The Spruance would be a costly and uselles naval platform for Brazil, while the OHP would be a good idea if the Royal Navy doesn't discard any more frigates.
Do you confirm the USN remaining OHPs have retired the SM-1 launcher ? That makes the USN OHPs gun frigates right ? Since Harpoons and SM-1 needed the Mk13 launcher ... :(

cheers

[contedicavour]

How? they still haven't finished paying off for their previous acquisitions. Spanish F100s are under tech transfer stipulations since they contain AN/SPY-1D radar and all the missiles are American as well. Europe would be reluctant to sell PAAMS or FREMM type vessels b/c it would shift the balance of power unduly in Brazil's favor. France is only going to have two PAAMS DDGs, how would it look if Brazil has the same?:confused:

We might try to sell FREMMs to Brazil, but it is extremely unlikely the Brazilian government would want to invest the 350 million euro cost per ship (plus another 50 approx to equip it with aster, teseo, scalp naval, etc).
Horizons or T45s cost 750 million euro each (without weapons), so are just not affordable.

cheers

PS : current exchage rate is 1 euro = 1.28 dollars

[ren0312]

In the first place Brazil's defence budget is too low anyway, and affliction which affects almost all Latin American nations, an explanation to thissituation can be found in the popularity of left wing movements in this region, I think that aside from increasing funding for its armed forces Brazil should just get rid it its carrrier and concentrate on having a good coastal defence forces consisting of SSKs, OPVs, missile boats, and USCG type cutters, it should go ahead with the purchase of the new fighter aircraft, as well as acquiring more APCs and AFV's as well as medium to light tanks, since it is a continental giant, so its threats can be expected to come from land and from the air, and not from the sea, although in probably can consider purchasing not more than 2 MRVs for UN peacekeeping missions.

[contedicavour]

In the first place Brazil's defence budget is too low anyway, and affliction which affects almost all Latin American nations, an explanation to thissituation can be found in the popularity of left wing movements in this region, I think that aside from increasing funding for its armed forces Brazil should just get rid it its carrrier and concentrate on having a good coastal defence forces consisting of SSKs, OPVs, missile boats, and USCG type cutters, it should go ahead with the purchase of the new fighter aircraft, as well as acquiring more APCs and AFV's as well as medium to light tanks, since it is a continental giant, so its threats can be expected to come from land and from the air, and not from the sea, although in probably can consider purchasing not more than 2 MRVs for UN peacekeeping missions.

I would mostly agree with you. Except on one item : the Sao Paulo carrier was a very cheap acquisition. It can host most of the Brazilian Marines' helicopters and thus become a sort of LPH. Most of the Brazilian Navy's overseas missions would be for peacekeeping, such as the one in Haiti. The Sao Paulo costs less than a new build LPH such as the French Mistral class.

cheers

[contedicavour]

Oh, and btw, one day the French Super Etendard will be deleted, as the Rafale become operational in the air-to-surface role as well. It would be logical for the Brazilians to replace the obsolete Skyhawks with the Super Etendards. Although the SEs are subsonic and relatively poor at air-to-air combat (they only carry IR Magic 2 missiles), they can launch 2 Exocets from 70 km away.
Now, that would make the Sao Paulo an extremely cost-effective platform.

cheers

[Supe]

@ren0312

With the sort of social problems that Brazil has to deal with, increasing defence expenditure can't rank highly on list of priorities. What use is the best funded military in South America if social structure threatens to collapse. Defence doesn't operate in a vacumn. In order to operate a functioning professional military, you need educated people, social and political stability, law and order, an economy that can sustain defence budgets and an environment in which economy can prosper. If you get this mix right, then you might look at the viability of increasing budget - provided there is a requirement to do so.

[Big-E]

@ren0312

With the sort of social problems that Brazil has to deal with, increasing defence expenditure can't rank highly on list of priorities. What use is the best funded military in South America if social structure threatens to collapse. Defence doesn't operate in a vacumn. In order to operate a functioning professional military, you need educated people, social and political stability, law and order, an economy that can sustain defence budgets and an environment in which economy can prosper. If you get this mix right, then you might look at the viability of increasing budget - provided there is a requirement to do so.

Considering they are about to declare energy independence they are in a better position economically than most of the world.

[Supe]

Considering they are about to declare energy independence they are in a better position economically than most of the world.

That's great. Now to reduce corruption and restore law and order.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3873943.html

[Big-E]

That's great. Now to reduce corruption and restore law and order.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3873943.html

Amazing with all that lawlessness and corruption they were able to institute an energy policy Western Nations drool over.:o I don't consider gang wars to be a sign of corruption and the streets of LA aren't any better when it comes to lawlessness.

[Supe]

Amazing with all that lawlessness and corruption they were able to institute an energy policy Western Nations drool over.:o I don't consider gang wars to be a sign of corruption and the streets of LA aren't any better when it comes to lawlessness.

Did you even read the linked article? It's not an internecine conflict it's between organised crime and the State. Don't let your opinion get in the way of facts. Must be nice just to type an opinion without the need to support it.

Gang violence and criminal activities and its negative impact on society (and by extension, the economy) as a serious law and order issue is not a new revelation - as it appears to be to you. This gang is one with clout and reach.

But his main opponent, former Sao Paulo state Gov. Geraldo Alckmin, is also taking heat for failing in his five years in office to stamp out the ruthless First Capital Command gang that launched the attacks across Brazil's most populous state.

The death toll of police, suspected criminals and bystanders skyrocketed since the First Capital Command started attacking police last Friday, in violence unlike anything this city has seen before.

In violence overnight that lasted through Thursday morning, police killed 14 suspected criminals in clashes, bringing the official seven-day death toll to 107 suspected criminals, 41 police and prison guards, 18 inmates and four civilians, according to a police statement.

source in previous post.


I don't consider gang wars I don't consider gang wars to be a sign of corruption

"The problem is money," said Harvard University's Dr. Biorn Maybury-Lewis, executive director of the David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies at Harvard University. "Well-heeled drug dealers, obviously, are in a position to corrupt officials in the prison system, police forces, security apparatus."

Corruption in Brazil, he told CNN, "is proving to be an intractable problem."

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/05/15/brazil.violenceover/


This gang has virtually declared war on the authorities in Sao Paolo. The death toll speaks volumes on just how powerful this gang is. The ramifications to breakdown in law and order and reach of this gang should be obvious, even to you. The violence was a result of the Govt cracking down on corruption within the Prisons and an attempt to curb influence of FCC (PCC).

further...


Over the past two years the comptroller-general's office (CGU), created in 2001, has conducted audits at 741 of Brazil's 5,500 municipalities, chosen at random. It found serious irregularities at 90 per cent of them, and some irregularity in all. Waldir Pires, who heads the CGU, says more than 20 per cent of public spending is lost to corruption. Counting only money transferred by the federal government to states and municipalities, that amounts to theft of more than R$18.5bn (US$7.3bn, €5.6bn, £3.8bn) last year.


http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/launder/regions/2005/0424brazil.htm



20% of public spending lost to corruption.... Yeah, it's great Brazil's energy needs are bright but don't think that energy self-sufficiency is all an ecomony depends on. A healthy economy is also based on good governance - both corporate and Government level and that law and order as a fundamental to stability is there.

[contedicavour]

Please folks, we're talking Brazilian Navy here...

:offtopic

I fully agree on the needs for social spending, and on the need for the government to restore order, etc, however the purpose of this thread never was to increase defense spending in Brazil, just to find out what can be bought with the small existing budget.

cheers

[Jtimes2]

Thks Big-E, exactly the sort of assessment I was looking for.
The Spruance would be a costly and uselles naval platform for Brazil, while the OHP would be a good idea if the Royal Navy doesn't discard any more frigates.
Do you confirm the USN remaining OHPs have retired the SM-1 launcher ? That makes the USN OHPs gun frigates right ? Since Harpoons and SM-1 needed the Mk13 launcher ... :(

cheers

Yep, it is gone. Here is a photo of USS John L Hall from March of this year:
http://static.flickr.com/47/114449676_08177df0f0_o.jpg
As you pointed out; loss of the Mk13 also means no more Harpoon. The Mk75 76mm gun is going to be retired near the end of the decade itself; when the USN and USCG switch over to the common 57mm. The Navy isn't redesignating them "FF" instead of "FFG" however; as it claims that the Penguin missiles carried by the Seahawks fill the guided missile criteria........maybe they just don't want to buy everybody new embroidered uniform ball caps. :)

Australia still has the Mk13 on their OHP clones but they have also installed a small VLS for ESSM to prepare for the possibility that the SM-1 spare parts might run out someday.

As for Brazil; they might have to wait if they want Perrys: the days of there being an endless supply of decom'ed USN frigates is over. There are only two decommissioned FFG's left (USS George Phillip and USS Sides) and Portugal is eyeing them; Bahrain also wants one as a parts hulk for Sabha. The remaining missile-less long hull ships are all being actively used for things like drug ops, "flag-showing" visits, etc to free up other ships for frontline tasks; and the USN has slowed down the decom schedule dramatically.

[Sea Toby]

The US Navy has thousands of Mk41 VLS cells in their fleet of CGs and DDGs, the Mk 13 launchers and their magazines of the FFGs have become somewhat dated. The FFGs have never been liked by the US Navy, having less range, fewer missiles, much less dated missiles than the larger warships. When they were built they provided a small area defense anti-air missile capability for the ships they escorted, today most of the replenishment and amphibious ships they escorted have better self defense anti-air missile capability with their Mk 21 RAMs. The longer hulled FFGs are useful today for their ASW capabilty with their towed arrays and duo ASW helicopters.

As soon as there are enough of the new LCS ships built, the FFGs will be decommissioned. I don't think any navy will want them without the Mk 13 launchers except as a spare parts source for the shorter hulled FFGs that were transferred with their Mk 13 launchers. The Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles have the range of a SM-1 missile allowing the US Navy to discard them. In 15 years most of these will have reached their payoff point too, around the same time the US Navy stops supporting the SM-1 missiles. Frankly, I don't think any of the FFGs will last 40 years in any navy although many will surpass 30 years.

It appears the US Navy is pouring all of its future anti-air resources into the SM-3, ESSM, and RAM missiles.

[Big-E]

As soon as there are enough of the new LCS ships built, the FFGs will be decommissioned. I don't think any navy will want them without the Mk 13 launchers except as a spare parts source for the shorter hulled FFGs that were transferred with their Mk 13 launchers. The Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles have the range of a SM-1 missile allowing the US Navy to discard them. In 15 years most of these will have reached their payoff point too, around the same time the US Navy stops supporting the SM-1 missiles. Frankly, I don't think any of the FFGs will last 40 years in any navy although many will surpass 30 years.

It appears the US Navy is pouring all of its future anti-air resources into the SM-3, ESSM, and RAM missiles.


Speaking of OHP resale I think the Brazilian navy would be the prime buyer of these platforms. I'm sure you read my ASW debate earlier in the thread of why OHP fits the Brazilian Navy like a glove. Just b/c the Mk 13 launcher is gone doesn't mean it can't be replaced with something else. Brazil would want a launcher with weapons they operate already making the buy even more perfect. 30 years out of a used buy is an excellent return! Ever heard of the axiom "one mans garbage is another mans treasure?" Just b/c OHPs are USN garbage doesn't mean they couldn't fit nicely into the Brazilain Navy.

[contedicavour]

Yep, it is gone. Here is a photo of USS John L Hall from March of this year:
http://static.flickr.com/47/114449676_08177df0f0_o.jpg
As you pointed out; loss of the Mk13 also means no more Harpoon. The Mk75 76mm gun is going to be retired near the end of the decade itself; when the USN and USCG switch over to the common 57mm. The Navy isn't redesignating them "FF" instead of "FFG" however; as it claims that the Penguin missiles carried by the Seahawks fill the guided missile criteria........maybe they just don't want to buy everybody new embroidered uniform ball caps. :)

Australia still has the Mk13 on their OHP clones but they have also installed a small VLS for ESSM to prepare for the possibility that the SM-1 spare parts might run out someday.

As for Brazil; they might have to wait if they want Perrys: the days of there being an endless supply of decom'ed USN frigates is over. There are only two decommissioned FFG's left (USS George Phillip and USS Sides) and Portugal is eyeing them; Bahrain also wants one as a parts hulk for Sabha. The remaining missile-less long hull ships are all being actively used for things like drug ops, "flag-showing" visits, etc to free up other ships for frontline tasks; and the USN has slowed down the decom schedule dramatically.

Thanks a lot for this very accurate information ! :)
I am still shocked that the USN OHPs are reduced to an armament that a 40-metre patrol boat could match... at least if you exclude ASW, of course. These ships should rather be handed over to the USCG for the drug ops and other non-frontline tasks.
Thks again for the information,

cheers

[contedicavour]

Speaking of OHP resale I think the Brazilian navy would be the prime buyer of these platforms. I'm sure you read my ASW debate earlier in the thread of why OHP fits the Brazilian Navy like a glove. Just b/c the Mk 13 launcher is gone doesn't mean it can't be replaced with something else. Brazil would want a launcher with weapons they operate already making the buy even more perfect. 30 years out of a used buy is an excellent return! Ever heard of the axiom "one mans garbage is another mans treasure?" Just b/c OHPs are USN garbage doesn't mean they couldn't fit nicely into the Brazilain Navy.

Fully agree :)
Brazil just updated their NIteroi ('70s vintage frigates build by England) with Aspide SAM missiles (basically the Sea Sparrow, although it has been significantly updated by the Italian Alenia company of Finmeccanica Group) and RTN-20 and -30 radars.
These could all be fitted onto ex USN Perrys, generating a decent AAW cover, although we would be miles away from SM-2 IIIA or Aster-30.

cheers

[Big-E]

Fully agree :)
Brazil just updated their NIteroi ('70s vintage frigates build by England) with Aspide SAM missiles (basically the Sea Sparrow, although it has been significantly updated by the Italian Alenia company of Finmeccanica Group) and RTN-20 and -30 radars.
These could all be fitted onto ex USN Perrys, generating a decent AAW cover, although we would be miles away from SM-2 IIIA or Aster-30.

cheers

What about an Aussie type OHP refit...:rolleyes:

[rickusn]

"and the USN has slowed down the decom schedule dramatically."

This was done because the decision was made to retire the Spruances prematurely.

The plan now is one to go in 2010, 17 to go from 2012-2013. And the last 12 by 2018.

Yep another mass decommissioning.

Personally I think it will happen sooner.

They have extremely limited utility.

Brazil might get lucky if the UK has another round of cuts another four or five Type 23's may become available.

And IMHO would be a better fit than the OHP's.

I see at least one of the ex-USN Garcia class frigates are still in service the D27 Para:


http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/aderex06/imagem/aderex06_104.jpg http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/ade...derex06_047.jpg (http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/aderex06/imagem/aderex06_047.jpg)

[contedicavour]

What about an Aussie type OHP refit...:rolleyes:

It would be a very good update, ESSM being better in range than our Aspide but ESSM costs more and the Brazilian Navy would have to support 2 different types of SAMs on its ships. A bit complicated.

cheers

[contedicavour]

This was done because the decision was made to retire the Spruances prematurely.

The plan now is one to go in 2010, 17 to go from 2012-2013. And the last 12 by 2018.

Yep another mass decommissioning.

Personally I think it will happen sooner.

They have extremely limited utility.

Brazil might get lucky if the UK has another round of cuts another four or five Type 23's may become available.

And IMHO would be a better fit than the OHP's.

I see at least one of the ex-USN Garcia class frigates are still in service the D27 Para:


http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/aderex06/imagem/aderex06_104.jpg http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/ade...derex06_047.jpg (http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/aderex06/imagem/aderex06_047.jpg)

The USN can still use the VLS Spruance for TLAMs and ASROCs (and SM-2s if Burkes or Ticonderogas are around). I would keep them until the new DDX come about... :confused: