Any word on Iraqi ships in Italy?

[Jtimes2]

Hello

I was wondering if anybody has heard of the final disposition of the two Iraqi missile corvettes that were built in Italy in the 1980s? They have been embargoed ever since. Last year, I read that the Italian navy pledged assistance to the new Iraqi Coastal Defense Force (political speak, a'la Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force) with unspecified financial aid; and two Lupo class frigates.

Were the two Lupo's promised actually ex-Italian navy Lupo's, or; were they actually the two embargoed ships? Currently Iraq operates only the five Predator class and four Al-Uboor class inshore patrol boats, armed with machine guns. It seems astonishing that they would jump from that to missile corvettes.......total Iraqi naval manpower is about 600 guys; two corvettes would eat half that up right off the bat.

There's also an Iraqi navy oiler, the Agnadeen, laid up in Alexandria Egypt. The UN awarded it to Italy after Desert Storm but they never claimed it. I wonder what will become of it now.

[contedicavour]

Hello

I was wondering if anybody has heard of the final disposition of the two Iraqi missile corvettes that were built in Italy in the 1980s? They have been embargoed ever since. Last year, I read that the Italian navy pledged assistance to the new Iraqi Coastal Defense Force (political speak, a'la Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force) with unspecified financial aid; and two Lupo class frigates.

Were the two Lupo's promised actually ex-Italian navy Lupo's, or; were they actually the two embargoed ships? Currently Iraq operates only the five Predator class and four Al-Uboor class inshore patrol boats, armed with machine guns. It seems astonishing that they would jump from that to missile corvettes.......total Iraqi naval manpower is about 600 guys; two corvettes would eat half that up right off the bat.

There's also an Iraqi navy oiler, the Agnadeen, laid up in Alexandria Egypt. The UN awarded it to Italy after Desert Storm but they never claimed it. I wonder what will become of it now.


Hello , the 2 "Assad" class 60-metre corvettes built in Italy for the Iraqi Navy are still in the La Spezia military harbor in Nothern Italy. They have Aspide AAW missiles, Teseo SSMs and a helo pad + retractable hangar aft. I don't see any activity going on on these 2 ships (though some Iraqi personnel is occasionally aboard), I mean no overhaul or maintenance that could point to preparations for sailing to Iraq.
Of the original naval package sold to Iraq, the other 4 Assad corvettes (without helo pad or hangar) have been sold to Malaysia, and the 4 Lupo-class FFGs have all integrated the Italian Navy as the Artigliere class (ASW equipment has been taken out however).
So no Lupos are available for Iraq anyway, since the original 4 Lupos have been deleted from active service and sold to Peru.
I am not aware of the fate of the Agnadeen oiler however. Our Navy is not interested, it could be sold for commercial service.

cheers

[Jtimes2]

Hello , the 2 "Assad" class 60-metre corvettes built in Italy for the Iraqi Navy are still in the La Spezia military harbor in Nothern Italy. They have Aspide AAW missiles, Teseo SSMs and a helo pad + retractable hangar aft. I don't see any activity going on on these 2 ships (though some Iraqi personnel is occasionally aboard), I mean no overhaul or maintenance that could point to preparations for sailing to Iraq.
Of the original naval package sold to Iraq, the other 4 Assad corvettes (without helo pad or hangar) have been sold to Malaysia, and the 4 Lupo-class FFGs have all integrated the Italian Navy as the Artigliere class (ASW equipment has been taken out however).
So no Lupos are available for Iraq anyway, since the original 4 Lupos have been deleted from active service and sold to Peru.
I am not aware of the fate of the Agnadeen oiler however. Our Navy is not interested, it could be sold for commercial service.

cheers

Thanks for the excellent info!

[Ding]

Yep, can confirm Malaysia bought 4 missile corvettes originaly for Iraq Navy. Good ships, heavily armed and fast. Is it the Assad Class? I thought it was the ex Wadi M'ragh class. Now it's called the Laksamana Class. It was fully refurbished and upgraded before being transferred to the RMN.

[hydraulic]

That is the best fast decision made by the MY Govt.

[Big-E]

That is the best fast decision made by the MY Govt.

:confused: Why?

[contedicavour]

:confused: Why?

Well it did provide for a limited cost a cheap and highly capable force of missile multi-purpose corvettes without having to order new ones (such as the Meko 100 Malaysian prorgamme).
Besides, these are very fast ships capable of patrolling on anti-piracy missions as well.

cheers

[contedicavour]

Yep, can confirm Malaysia bought 4 missile corvettes originaly for Iraq Navy. Good ships, heavily armed and fast. Is it the Assad Class? I thought it was the ex Wadi M'ragh class. Now it's called the Laksamana Class. It was fully refurbished and upgraded before being transferred to the RMN.

Hello, actually Fincantieri called in the late '70s a programme for 60-metre export corvettes "Assad" class. The first customers were the Libyans. Then Iraqis ordered more advanced version of the same corvettes, and indeed they were called Wadi M'ragh.
The original 4 Libyan ships are not operational anymore because of lack of maintenance during the UN sanctions.
Happy to see the Malaysian Navy satisfied with its acquisition.
cheers

[hydraulic]

LAKSAMANA CLASS CORVETTES, MALAYSIA

In October 1995 the Malaysian Ministry of Finance signed a contract with Fincantieri for the supply of two 650t missile corvettes for the Royal Malaysian Navy. A further two missile corvettes were ordered in February 1997. The first two ships, Hang Nadim and Tun Abdul Jamil, were commissioned in July 1997. The second two, Muhammed Amin and Tan Pusmah, were delivered in July 1999.
The original ship design had been ordered by the Iraqi Navy, but the supply of the missile corvettes was stopped by United Nations sanctions. Some specific aspects of the ships' design were modified and the ships were refitted to meet the requirements of the Royal Malaysian Navy.
IPN 10 COMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM

The ship's command and control system is the IPN 10 for the first two ships and the IPN-S for the second two ships, both supplied by Alenia Marconi Systems (now Selex Sistemi Integrati), together with Thales Nederland Link Y. The IPN system gathers, correlates and filters the information from the ship's sensors, and communications and data networks. In April 2002, AMS was awarded a contract for the upgrade of the IPN 10 on the Hang Nadim and the Tun Abdul Jamil to the IPN-S standard.
The fire control system is based on two NA21 and one DARDO system together with their dedicated radar, supplied by Selex Sistemi Integrati.
ANTI-SHIP AND ANTI-AIR MISSILES

The ship's long-range sea-skimming missile system is the Otomat Mark 2/Teseo by MBDA (formerly Alenia and Matra BAe Dynamics). Six Otomat Teseo Mark 2 missile launchers, three pointing to port and three pointing starboard, are installed on the stern deck. The missiles are armed with a 210kg high-explosive warhead, fitted with impact and proximity fuses. The speed of the missile is Mach 0.9 and the range is 120km.
The ship's medium-range air defence system is the Albatros supplied by MBDA, which provides defence against aircraft and incoming anti-ship missiles. Albatros fires the Aspide missile which has a speed of Mach 2.5 and a 15km range. It uses semi-active radar homing to deliver a 33kg warhead. The Albatros launcher is installed on the raised bridge deck to the stern of the main mast.
GUNS

The ship's main gun, the 76mm 62 calibre Oto Melara Super Rapid is installed on the bow deck in front of the citadel. The firing rate is 120 rounds/minute and range is up to 16km. The ship's multi-role gun is the 40mm Oto Melara L70 twin gun which has a range of 12.5km and firing rate of 300 rounds/minute.
ILAS-3 TORPEDO LAUNCHER

The ships torpedo system is the ILAS-3 torpedo launcher from Whitehead Alenia of Salvanio, Italy. The triple launchers are installed one each side on the main deck. The A244/S anti-submarine torpedoes use active, passive and mixed mode homing to a target range of 7km.
COUNTERMEASURES

The ship's electronic warfare suite comprises the INS-3 radar interceptor and the TQN-2 radar jammer, both from Selex Sistemi Integrati.
One Oto Melara 105mm decoy launcher is installed on both the port and starboard side of the ship. Each launcher has six launch tubes and is capable of firing illuminating rounds or chaff rounds to counter hostile radars and radar guided missiles.
SENSOR SUITE

The ship's radar suite consists of: RAN 12L/X air and surface search radar, supplied by Selex Sistemi Integrati and operating in D and I bands and Kelvin Hughes 1007 navigation radar operating at I band. The ship is also fitted with a Global Positioning System (GPS)
The ship is equipped with the ASO 94-41 hull mounted active search and attack sonar supplied by Atlas Elektronik.
PROPULSION SYSTEMS

The ship has four MTU 20 V 956 TB 92 diesel engines developing 14.8MW sustained power driving four shafts. Three diesel generators each yield 280KVA. The engines provide a dash speed of 36 knots, a maximum sustained speed of 34 knots and an economical speed of 18 knots. The range at 18 knots is 2,300 nautical miles.

[f2000]

well ,assad/laksamana class is the backbone of royal malaysia navy(rmn) because of three dimension capability although we have yarrow f2000 frigates.
with high speed,the armament on assad class better than on f2000 in term of range(ottomat 120km-exocetmm40k2 70km)ssm n (aspide 15km-seawolf 7km).their sam is very good.

[contedicavour]

well ,assad/laksamana class is the backbone of royal malaysia navy(rmn) because of three dimension capability although we have yarrow f2000 frigates.
with high speed,the armament on assad class better than on f2000 in term of range(ottomat 120km-exocetmm40k2 70km)ssm n (aspide 15km-seawolf 7km).their sam is very good.

Fully agree on the performance/range of SSM & SAMs :)

I'm just wondering why the Malaysian Navy didn't opt for these proven missiles when it selected the equipment for the new MEKO frigates been built locally. :confused:

Just in case you were interested ;) , we might be able to fit Aster-15 missiles on your meko design, though the radar would be at best the "Arabel" or the modified one on Singapore's Delta-Lafayette frigates, which has a lower range and target-tracking capability than the EMPAR.

Cheers

[Ding]

yeah well.... the meko design was built as a New Generation Patrol Vessel, so there's no real offensive capability there. It's a gun only vessel. Also the malaysian government is saying the ships are "fitted for but not with" design meaning they are easily upgradeable to a corvette/frigate standard later on. Total of 6 vessel purchased if i'm not mistaken.

Bollocks I say! Since we have the Coast Guard for the policing duties, why does the Navy need the patrol vessel? Just build them as corvettes and be done with. I just dont see the point off building it as a patrol vessel. Maybe you guys can. I sure can't.

The Laksamana Class really performed well. I like it personally:D The meko class should be built like that. keep the frigates as the flag ship but corvettes as the force's backbone.

[contedicavour]

yeah well.... the meko design was built as a New Generation Patrol Vessel, so there's no real offensive capability there. It's a gun only vessel. Also the malaysian government is saying the ships are "fitted for but not with" design meaning they are easily upgradeable to a corvette/frigate standard later on. Total of 6 vessel purchased if i'm not mistaken.

Bollocks I say! Since we have the Coast Guard for the policing duties, why does the Navy need the patrol vessel? Just build them as corvettes and be done with. I just dont see the point off building it as a patrol vessel. Maybe you guys can. I sure can't.

The Laksamana Class really performed well. I like it personally:D The meko class should be built like that. keep the frigates as the flag ship but corvettes as the force's backbone.

Fully agree with you. If the MEKOs are not equipped correctly it is a big waste of budget to buy a frigate instead of a patrol craft :rolleyes:

[f2000]

well because of recent management problem we only put gun.
we are waiting 4 more funding from our gov.
kedah class will be used 4 patrolling eez(economic exclussive zone).i dont think coast guard can patrol in the eez.their vessel are lack of range.thats why we need kedah class ngpv.

[Big-E]

MEKOs have to do with Iraq's navy how? :confused:

[Ding]

well because of recent management problem we only put gun.
we are waiting 4 more funding from our gov.
kedah class will be used 4 patrolling eez(economic exclussive zone).i dont think coast guard can patrol in the eez.their vessel are lack of range.thats why we need kedah class ngpv.
I thought the Musytari Class opv was transferred to the coast guard? That's supposed to be their flagship. Thair big enough, should have the range. I think they're comparable to the USCG Cutters.

[f2000]

the main bone of coast guard are fac,maybe just musytari class have the long range patrol capability.the navy is there 4 patrolling the eez.

[contedicavour]

MEKOs have to do with Iraq's navy how? :confused:

Well, most of the Navy we (Italians) built originally for Iraq has ended up in Malaysia. It is thus interesting to compare these corvettes' capabilities with those of the new MEKOs the Malaysian Navy is building.
Just in case the new Iraqi government bothered to take the 2 remaining corvettes which are stuck in La Spezia (though still well maintained)... otherwise we would be very happy to put them up for sale to Malaysia !
These 2 remaining ships are almost identical to the other 4, but for a very useful helo pad aft.
This might be a better buy than - for example - 2 more MEKOs. And so much cheaper !! :D

cheers

[Ding]

although i think the navy would love to get hands on the corvettes, we have signed up for the 6 meko opvs. dont think the goverment wants to fund that.

[contedicavour]

although i think the navy would love to get hands on the corvettes, we have signed up for the 6 meko opvs. dont think the goverment wants to fund that.

Just in case ;) I guess at 120 million euro (150 million dollars) a couple of missile corvettes with helos would be a good deal !!

cheers

[annati]

Unfortunately the two Iraqi corvettes still in Italy can't be sold to Malaysia or anybody else, because they belong to Iraq, not to Italy.
There are ongoing talks in order to decide whether they should be refurbished (and, most important, who would pay the bill).
The Italian Government is drastically short of resources.
The Italian shipyards would like to sell some new OPV.
Iraqis don't want to put money into warships, because they have, clearly enough, much more troubles on the ground than at sea.
The result, up to now, is that everything is still, like Contedicavour reported.

[Big-E]

Iraqis don't want to put money into warships, because they have, clearly enough, much more troubles on the ground than at sea.

As long as Combined Task Force 58 is patrolling off Basra they won't need any warships. They won't be there forever. :(

[contedicavour]

Unfortunately the two Iraqi corvettes still in Italy can't be sold to Malaysia or anybody else, because they belong to Iraq, not to Italy.
There are ongoing talks in order to decide whether they should be refurbished (and, most important, who would pay the bill).
The Italian Government is drastically short of resources.
The Italian shipyards would like to sell some new OPV.
Iraqis don't want to put money into warships, because they have, clearly enough, much more troubles on the ground than at sea.
The result, up to now, is that everything is still, like Contedicavour reported.

I guess the Iraqi government would be willing to cede its nominal control over these 2 corvettes in exchange for some new patrol boats more suited for controlling shipping around Umm Qasr. In this case the ships could be renovated and sold to Malaysia. The equipment is still very much valid.

By the way, technically our government could even charge the Iraqi one with the costs we've incurred for keeping the corvettes and their personnel in our La Spezia-Muggiano harbor facilities... for an amazing 15 years !!

cheers

[contedicavour]

As long as Combined Task Force 58 is patrolling off Basra they won't need any warships. They won't be there forever. :(

I believe Iraq should buy itself ships such as Kuwait's, ie relatively small and fast patrol boats. There are many second-hand Lurssen FACs around (Germany is selling several to North African countries as we speak) and Combattante II and III class FACs.
Fincantieri's proposal from Italy is the Saettia class, 58-metre small corvettes that are now entering service in the Coast Guard. Vickers is proposing its Vita class (already sold to Qatar and Greece), and France would love to sell some new Combattantes...
As long as oil is above 70 dollars a barrel, there's a potentially interesting market there... :D

cheers

[Jtimes2]

Unfortunately the two Iraqi corvettes still in Italy can't be sold to Malaysia or anybody else, because they belong to Iraq, not to Italy.
There are ongoing talks in order to decide whether they should be refurbished (and, most important, who would pay the bill).
The Italian Government is drastically short of resources.
The Italian shipyards would like to sell some new OPV.
Iraqis don't want to put money into warships, because they have, clearly enough, much more troubles on the ground than at sea.
The result, up to now, is that everything is still, like Contedicavour reported.

Cool, thanks for the info. I had read a similar thing regarding the OPV's; apparently Fiancateri wants to sell Iraq 1 or 2 newbuild OPV's for cash less the scrap value of the two corvettes. They are in pretty rough shape, apparently the La Spezia Harbour Board is funding basic shipkeeping so they don't sink pierside. Like you said, I can't imagine Iraq would actually want the two corvettes as they need to concentrate their $ on land forces.