New Dutch Helicoptor Carrier?

[PhillTaj]

I've been hearing alot recently that the Dutch have decided to build an LHD with replenishment capabilities- similiar to the Canadian Joint Support Ship but probably more along the lines of HMS Ocean or the Schelde Groups Enforcer 18000. Anyone heard anything about this program?

I'd be very interested in seeing what the ship may look like- the Rotterdam LPDs are fine vessels, lets hope they can continue the tradition.

[Sea Toby]

The Royal Schelde shipyard has at its website four different versions, from 16,000 tons to 22,000 tons. Yes, the Dutch government is interested in acquiring one, I believe its the largest one for their fleet.

See this link for all 12 versions of the Enforcer type LPDs/LHDs.

http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/

You'll notice that New Zealand found a Tenix-Merwede designed ferry cheaper than the ADI-Schelde 8,000 ton Enforcer.

You'll also notice that the Dutch have built two different versions of the Enforcer type for their fleet, and are contemplating adding another version.

Royal Schelde is also offering a number of frigates to patrol ships of the Sigma type. The Dutch may sell two more of their Karel Doorman frigates to build two or more OPVs.

See this link for the Sigma type warships

http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/Sigma.htm

However, if the Dutch are interested in a multi-role helicopter carrier/replenishment ship the rigs would be on one side of the ship similar to what Portugal is interested in. Germany's HDW has offered a 8,000 ton LPD/AOE and a 10,000 ton LHD/AOE. They appear as either a LPD or in this case a mid-section LHD with the replenishment rigs to starboard. There were photos in the magazine Warship back in the May issue of 2005.

Of course, the Canadians have been more interested in a true 30,000 ton AOE, but with a vehicle deck for army sealift.

Denmark built a multi-role OPV/sealift ship which appears as an OPV, with a vehicle deck for army sealift.

Iceland is interested in something similar to Denmark's multi-role ship, a German Blohm & Voss design of 3,000 tons, half the size of the Danish ship.

Frankly, I find all of these multi-role ship designs interesting.

[Big-E]

Frankly, I find all of these multi-role ship designs interesting.

Especially when they get F-35Bs.

[PhillTaj]

Do you think they'll go for the 22,000 ton LHD or a smaller 8000-10,000 ton multi role vessel? The program is budgeted at aboit 191 million, roughly the same cost as HMS Ocean.

[contedicavour]

I've read on the most recent issue of "Naval Forces" by Monch Publishing Group that the Dutch Navy has decided to sell 2 more Karel Doorman frigates in exchange for a 20,000 tonner LHD with some AOR capability and 4 large OPVs/corvettes 90-metre long.

They'll end up with 4 LCF, 2 M-class frigates, 4 OPVs, 2 big LPD and 1 very big LHD, besides the 4 Walrus SSK and a dozen minesweepers.
Frankly at this speed the Dutch Navy will become more a Marine-support unit than a blue-water Navy :confused: Great for the Marines, but bad news for all the other capabilities...

I still remember when they had 20 main surface units between Tromp, Van Heemsmerk (sorry for the spelling), Doorman, Kortenaer ... :rolleyes:

cheers

[Sea Toby]

The Netherlands, much like the British, have reduced their number of ASW frigates and are increasing their number of sealift assets. The Cold War is over, the peace dividend has been cashed, and now nations are rebuilding their forces to match today's problems, for many its sealift.


Since no European or American navy has over 100 submarines anymore, ASW has taken a back seat to sealift. Sealift and littorial warfare assets are the wave of the future, with frigates being useful abroad on peacekeeping missions and with OPVs being useful at home for EEZ patrol, fishery protection, SAR missions, and for showing the flag in foreign ports. OPVs also cost much less than a frigate, several times less.

Even a more powerful corvette of the same size of a OPV have the combat data systems and weapons systems of a frigate are half the price of a sea going more heavily armed frigate. Welcome to the 21st Century

Here is a link to the Armada magazine article which shows two pictures of HDW AOR/Sealift multi-role vessels offered to Portugal. The 8,000 tonner appears much like a small LPD, the 10,000 tonner appears more like a midships flat top, with the repenishment rigs to starboard on both.

www.armada.ch/05-5/complete_05-5.pdf

[contedicavour]

The Netherlands, much like the British, have reduced their number of ASW frigates and are increasing their number of sealift assets. The Cold War is over, the peace dividend has been cashed, and now nations are rebuilding their forces to match today's problems, for many its sealift.


Since no European or American navy has over 100 submarines anymore, ASW has taken a back seat to sealift. Sealift and littorial warfare assets are the wave of the future, with frigates being useful abroad on peacekeeping missions and with OPVs being useful at home for EEZ patrol, fishery protection, SAR missions, and for showing the flag in foreign ports. OPVs also cost much less than a frigate, several times less.

Even a more powerful corvette of the same size of a OPV have the combat data systems and weapons systems of a frigate are half the price of a sea going more heavily armed frigate. Welcome to the 21st Century

Here is a link to the Armada magazine article which shows two pictures of HDW AOR/Sealift multi-role vessels offered to Portugal. The 8,000 tonner appears much like a small LPD, the 10,000 tonner appears more like a midships flat top, with the repenishment rigs to starboard on both.

www.armada.ch/05-5/complete_05-5.pdf

All that you say makes a lot of sense :) However I beg to differ... most of the current missions are still classic escort of merchants around the world, "show the flag" missions in dangerous areas, and AAW, ASW and ASUW protection for your already existing LPDs when you need to deploy marines in some distant location.
If your navy ends up having 4 LPDs and 6 FFGs, there are chances that you wan't be capable to escort it appropriately and that you won't have enough FFGs to protect your shipping around the world anymore (against threats ranging from Iran going crazy in the Gulf to pirates in the Malacca Straits).

To conclude, great to reduce your SSK and FFG numbers to accomodate some LPDs, but beware if your navy doesn't have enough FFGs to escort your LPDs...

[Sea Toby]

As long as the LPDs steam together, the Dutch have enough escorting vessels. However, I will agree if the LPDs are steaming to two different locations, it appears the Dutch may have cut their escorting forces too much. With six suitable escorting vessels, the Dutch will probably only have 4 available in a pinch.

But if they are heading in the direction of other sealift ships in a multi-nation convoy along with a mix of multi-nation escorts, the combined forces could do the job. And in this world with no navy having hundreds of submarines, more than likely fewer escorts are needed.

[Big-E]

And in this world with no navy having hundreds of submarines, more than likely fewer escorts are needed.

With all the diesel/electrics running around I don't think this is a good idea.

[Sea Toby]

While many nations have 2-4 diesel electric submarines, only the major powers have more. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their Caribbean island territories are of the most threat, and any potential enemy submarines in the Caribbean can be targeted and watched well in a conflict. Don't forget that the best ASW asset is to have your own submarines in your task force.

[Whiskyjack]

While many nations have 2-4 diesel electric submarines, only the major powers have more. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their Caribbean island territories are of the most threat, and any potential enemy submarines in the Caribbean can be targeted and watched well in a conflict. Don't forget that the best ASW asset is to have your own submarines in your task force.

Have to disagree, any purchase will last 30+ years. Who will have subs, how many and where the Dutch may be operating is not going to be known.

Buying a platform for one area of operations may doom it in an area you had not even thought about!

The UK assumed they would not be conducting world wide operations in the early 1980s and made platform decisions on that basis. They then sailed 8000nm to fight in the Falklands!

[Big-E]

While many nations have 2-4 diesel electric submarines, only the major powers have more. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their Caribbean island territories are of the most threat, and any potential enemy submarines in the Caribbean can be targeted and watched well in a conflict. Don't forget that the best ASW asset is to have your own submarines in your task force.

I seriously doubt the Dutch have the capabilty to keep a sub tracking every potential enemy sub. Even if they followed they would lose them in the thermals at some point or another. I would much rather have a few frigates with 2 ASW choppers apiece, towed ,and bow mounted sonars pinging away than to rely on a few subs trying to track a target at range with passive sonar.

[contedicavour]

Rather than having a too small frigate force, I'd rather eliminate the SSK force as the Danes did. That would be a sign of the changing times... although very painful.

[submerged]

eleminating the SSK force in the light of a reduced ASW capability would seem even less smart if u ask me.. throwing away 100 years of operational submarine experience isn't a very smart move, RNLN didtake over the UK perisher courser for a reason ;) Besides that, the building of new frigates would be a future thing because the current budget is way too strapped for that at this point (or the planned OPV's would have to be turned into down-scaled frigates wich is also not a good thing)

[Tasman]

eleminating the SSK force in the light of a reduced ASW capability would seem even less smart if u ask me.. throwing away 100 years of operational submarine experience isn't a very smart move, RNLN didtake over the UK perisher courser for a reason ;) Besides that, the building of new frigates would be a future thing because the current budget is way too strapped for that at this point (or the planned OPV's would have to be turned into down-scaled frigates wich is also not a good thing)

It would certainly take a long time to re-establish the submarine arm if it is needed in the future. Australia found this out when it had to wait more than thirty years between the winding up of their submarine force in 1931 and buying their Oberon class boats in the late 1960s. Even in WW2, when submarines would have been invaluable against Japan, Australia had to depend on allied submarines operating out of Fremantle and Brisbane. Amongst these were a number of Dutch subs!

I also think that SSKs have a role to play in securing Dutch interests in the Caribbean.

Cheers

[contedicavour]

It would certainly take a long time to re-establish the submarine arm if it is needed in the future. Australia found this out when it had to wait more than thirty years between the winding up of their submarine force in 1931 and buying their Oberon class boats in the late 1960s. Even in WW2, when submarines would have been invaluable against Japan, Australia had to depend on allied submarines operating out of Fremantle and Brisbane. Amongst these were a number of Dutch subs!

I also think that SSKs have a role to play in securing Dutch interests in the Caribbean.

Cheers

With a SSK force down to 4, there is only 1 or 2 ready at any given time, so I'd forget the Caribbean...
Besides, choices are sadly necessary once you're down to 6 FFG and 4 SSK ... nobody would lightheartedly recommand to abandon the SSK experience, but here we're reaching the point where it should be considered.

cheers

[Tasman]

With a SSK force down to 4, there is only 1 or 2 ready at any given time, so I'd forget the Caribbean...
Besides, choices are sadly necessary once you're down to 6 FFG and 4 SSK ... nobody would lightheartedly recommand to abandon the SSK experience, but here we're reaching the point where it should be considered.

cheers

I hadn't realised quite how far the downsizing of the Dutch navy had gone. If it can be maintained at the present level of 6 FFGs and 4 SSKs it will still be a balanced force. If it has to be reduced further, however, I agree that a tough call will have to be made. Less than 4 SSKs (certainly 3 at minimum)would be inefficient to properly maintain and operate so I would agree that the force ought to be abandoned if it cannot be maintained at that level.

Hopefully the Caribbean would not be completely forgotten!

Cheers

[Sea Toby]

With Venezuela adding new corvettes and submarines to their fleet, the Dutch better have a sufficient sized navy to protect their interests in the Caribbean.

[contedicavour]

With Venezuela adding new corvettes and submarines to their fleet, the Dutch better have a sufficient sized navy to protect their interests in the Caribbean.

It will be interesting to see how they'll react. IIRC Shell is also getting kicked out of several fields in the Western bit of Venezuela. Shell if Anglo-Dutch, so may be the Netherlands will try to do something about it.
Though with both the RN and the KM being downsized, it will be hard to have a significant presence around Aruba and the Commonwealth Caribbean islands.

cheers

[harryriedl]

With Venezuela adding new corvettes and submarines to their fleet, the Dutch better have a sufficient sized navy to protect their interests in the Caribbean.

if the Caribbean is under threat i can't see the dutch being in a position to protect it with a coastal fleet.

it could only achevie it with a joint fleet, would the RN join

would it be feasible to have a OPV based in Aruba like in the Falklands

[contedicavour]

if the Caribbean is under threat i can't see the dutch being in a position to protect it with a coastal fleet.

it could only achevie it with a joint fleet, would the RN join

would it be feasible to have a OPV based in Aruba like in the Falklands

Given the Dutch navy's limited assets and the fact that the P3Cs have gone to Germany, the best assets would be a dozen F16 MLU armed with Harpoons and of course AIM120 to counter Venezuela's SU30s. Though I don't know if the Dutch F16s carry Harpoons ?

cheers

[Tasman]

Given the Dutch navy's limited assets and the fact that the P3Cs have gone to Germany, the best assets would be a dozen F16 MLU armed with Harpoons and of course AIM120 to counter Venezuela's SU30s. Though I don't know if the Dutch F16s carry Harpoons ?

cheers

I tend to agree with this. In the absence of an adequate naval force the deployment of combat aircraft seems the way to go, in much the same way as the UK has deployed fighters to the Falklands. Does the Dutch AF, though, have sufficient F16s to be able to manage this?

Cheers

[Todjaeger]

I have to ask, are the Dutch West Indies threatened by anyone currently? My (limited) understanding, is that the Netherlands still has a few island colonies in the southern Antilles (Aruba, St. Marteen I think) From what I remember, the colonies themselves are of no strategic value, not having special natural resources and not being in a strategic location for commerce, travel or military basing. I'm also unaware of any current conflicts with another nation/island/colony and the Dutch West Indies.
Granted, I don't see the Netherlands currently in a good position to defend the colonies, I'm not seeing anyone they need defending from (aside from hordes of tourists but that's different)

I do recall that the Dutch upgraded the ISR capabilities recently with a Canadian maritime radar with approx. 1,000 km range. To my understanding, that was primarily to monitor suspicious air & maritime traffic for drug smuggling.

Who do people believe the colonies need defending from? What infrastructure is available to aide in the defence, and lastly, how likely are the colonies to need defending?

-Cheers

[Tasman]

I have to ask, are the Dutch West Indies threatened by anyone currently? My (limited) understanding, is that the Netherlands still has a few island colonies in the southern Antilles (Aruba, St. Marteen I think) From what I remember, the colonies themselves are of no strategic value, not having special natural resources and not being in a strategic location for commerce, travel or military basing. I'm also unaware of any current conflicts with another nation/island/colony and the Dutch West Indies.
Granted, I don't see the Netherlands currently in a good position to defend the colonies, I'm not seeing anyone they need defending from (aside from hordes of tourists but that's different)

I do recall that the Dutch upgraded the ISR capabilities recently with a Canadian maritime radar with approx. 1,000 km range. To my understanding, that was primarily to monitor suspicious air & maritime traffic for drug smuggling.

Who do people believe the colonies need defending from? What infrastructure is available to aide in the defence, and lastly, how likely are the colonies to need defending?

-Cheers

Hi Todjaeger,

I suspect the existence of any threat is very slight if at all. However, the possibility of conflict with Venezuela was raised and I guess we've been discussing possible contingency planning options. Point taken though! :)

Cheers

[Gladius]

Hi Todjaeger,

I suspect the existence of any threat is very slight if at all. However, the possibility of conflict with Venezuela was raised and I guess we've been discussing possible contingency planning options. Point taken though! :)

Cheers

Unfortunately it's true that Chavez is putting certain pressure over Dutch territories, particularly Curacao, but also Aruba and Bonaire.

Since some time ago Chavez has made many speeches denouncing the possibility that the US Armed Forces use the island, for their dark and nefarious purposes. :rolleyes: And is a recognice policy of the Chavez regime export the "Bolivarian Revolution" to the islands supporting the anti-dutch groups in the Islands. This question was commented by the Dutch Government in the Media.

The joint exercise Caribbean Lion 06 carried out during May-June by Dutch, British, Belgian, US, and Canadian forces last year, caused some stir also.

A little bit about the concern caused in the Dutch Antilles by Chavez:


Antillean PM concerned about threat from Chavez
Caribbean News / Curacao Correspondent
Monday, April 10, 2006 - Mikola Lashley.

WILLEMSTAD, Curacao: The Antillean prime minister, Emily de Jongh Elagh, has admitted she is concerned about an attack from Venezuela on the Antilles.

She confirmed in an interview that the possible and impending threat is now closely monitored by the Dutch defence ministry as part of the islands’ upgraded security plan, given growing evidence that peace between the Antilles and Venezuela could collapse at anytime.

Careless and potentially explosive comments made by the Dutch defence minister Henk Kamp , were described by her government ministers, as nothing short of a ‘declaration of war’

The normally composed De Jongh, became somewhat uncomfortable when pushed on the question about her thoughts on what the defence minister had said, she attempted to quickly distance herself from Kamp’s view that Venezuela was no match for Dutch defence, weakly suggesting that the sentiment of Kamp’s comments had been misquoted in the media.

Despite attempts at damage control by the Antillean and Dutch governments, who are eager to create a sense of security, however uncertain, De Jongh is not taking the situation lightly; she has asked Holland for a weekly in-depth briefing about how the situation with Venezuela is developing.

De Jongh also expressed a wish to maintain strong links with the US, but does not hold the same views on Chavez as Washington, who recently described him as a ‘dictator who continues to oppress its population and is looking to undermine the democracy in the region.” She went on to say she respected Chavez as a politician and how he handles the political situation in his country.

Following the growing and uneasy attention about Chavez’s desire to rid the Caribbean of its ‘imperialistic powers’ and his well documented and historic interest in the Antilles, the prime minister say’s she is now waiting patiently for the results of a meeting between the Dutch foreign affairs minister, Mr Bot and Hugo Chavez, due in a few weeks time, designed to re-establish the ties between the two countries.

De Jongh says the people of the Antilles voted to maintain links with Holland and that this is the main focus of her new government.


That was only one month before the Exercise Caribbean Lion 06 after the Minister Kamp response to one of Chavez speeches.

[contedicavour]

Indeed, thanks for the article. Aruba is also sitting in the middle of an oil rich area and is very close (physically) to Venezuela.
The Dutch air force has some 130 F16s even if IIRC no more than 80 are operational MLU. Place a dozen in Aruba with Harpoon or Penguins lent by Norway and it will calm down Chavez for quite a while.

cheers

[DJ Vileroy]

It would certainly take a long time to re-establish the submarine arm if it is needed in the future. Australia found this out when it had to wait more than thirty years between the winding up of their submarine force in 1931 and buying their Oberon class boats in the late 1960s. Even in WW2, when submarines would have been invaluable against Japan, Australia had to depend on allied submarines operating out of Fremantle and Brisbane. Amongst these were a number of Dutch subs!

I also think that SSKs have a role to play in securing Dutch interests in the Caribbean.

Cheers

Hello everyone

Iam dutch
And iam living next to an naval airbase and two naval and air factory's where the test and build new planes and ships.
Recently the dutch goverment did buy 4 new LCF Frigates and 3 new class submarines (don't know the type) my uncle is senior staf member of a navvy task force, and he said:

The dutch navvy has these puplic known assets:

4 LC Class frigates
Hr. Ms. De Zeven Provinciën (F 802)

Hr. Ms. Tromp (F 803)

Hr. Ms. De Ruyter (F 804)

Hr. Ms. Evertsen (F 805)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
NOT KNOWN
fully upgraded and missle capable and anti-submarine support with a fully anti missle/air systems)
4 LCF Frigates will be added in the summer of 2007 2 allready in action.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
7 M Frigates
Hr. Ms. Karel Doorman (F 827)

Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829)

MARDET. Tjerk Hiddes (F 830)

Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831)

Hr. Ms. Van Nes (F 833)

Hr. Ms. Van Galen (F 834)

Hr. Ms. Van Speijk (F 828)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also NOT KNOWN
They are upgrading them now to fully operational fast respond war ships.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
and this are the puplic known 4 Walrus class submarines:
Hr.Ms. Walrus
Hr.Ms. Zeeleeuw
Hr.Ms. Dolfijn
Hr.Ms. Bruinvis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And again NOT KNOWN only if you are dutch and living next to the place where they beeing built and has input from inside.
3 new class attack submarines are being build right now they will be a part of the dutch "extra assets"

The dutch do have a navvy perhaps not the best but it is a navvy.
The 130 know F16 fighters we have are not the maximum because we do have a few planes left at airbase Middelharnis and airbase Swifterband the are still a large force of planes stationed.
Middelharnis has 40 not known F 16D2A Figters with harpoons and 3 other type's of planes don't know the type.
And Swifterband is a airbase that is home to a 25 F14's (Not dutch but in use of the dutch and can be used anytime.
33 special custom build not known F 16's with asm,harpoon and precision bombing options.
And than we have more helicopters than we probably can use hahaha.
The build more than 60 helicopters (variouse types but most the built version would be the famous apache chopper)

And then at last......
The dutch navvy and airforce are beeing cut down by getting less money.
Thats what everyone knows, but in fact there is a major rebuild up and upgrading program running and it will be finished this year.

The two chopper carriers will also soon be operational we use now 2 chopper carriers from a nother nation to practice and getting used to the new type of ship.

I know the dutch has a very tiny army, but if venezuala try's to attack or worse the will be bomb back to the stone age faster than they can look.
The reason that the dutch cutting costs is a simple action the are just rebuilding and upgrading the entire army and it cost a huge amount of money, the dutch goverment spend the last 15 years to build up a huge amount of money to be capable to do this.
So it was planned long time ago.
And there is one more thing the dutch has also 8 more big/medium warships
but they are in use of the belguim navvy for drug patrolling and practice.
There are also 6 meduim frigates in use of the france navvy for extra protection by missions and ecorting tasks.
And in the naval base Den Helder, Ijmuiden there are alwayse a few ships that are dutch but not listed in the puplic records.
The dutch try to maintain a small mobile yet powerfull force that is strong enough to do the job.
And real war stuff?
Like battleships and B52/Stealth bombers?
That is not the dutch style they are not seeking total power but a blanced way of action protection and defence, because in the militairy the teach us that not the big bombs and guns count but the person how is smart and fast,
They claim to put up a strong force in about 14 hours every where on the planet so fast in fast out.
There is no need for big guns otherwise we wil call bush :onfloorl: hahahaha

Like nukes or biobombs?
The dutch do have a few nukes ( small tactical nukes) but the will never use it)
And bioshit? we have a research complex called TNO and TUV there the testing the most killing virusses and biothings you only see in your nightmare, but the only make pills and injections to cure people when a virus is active or when a fool uses biobombs lets hope this never happen right?

But my quistion is what do you think of the dutch navvy in generalview?
Iam suprised that so mutch is known to the outside world, but still so less.
Here they tell us this and overthere in the us or china they tell something differend.
Anyway i hope my info is usefull.


Greetz Nico

[Tasman]

The dutch do have a few nukes ( small tactical nukes) but the will never use it)


Greetz Nico

Welcome to the forum Nico. Your post has a lot of information that will take some time to digest and some of it I found surprising. I will endeavour to respond to some of what you said later but I will comment on the nuclear issue now.

From what I can find out the tactical nuclear weapons belong to the USA and were allocated to a number of NATO countries, including the Netherlands, in the event of an attack on Western Europe. According to a report published in February 2005 by the Federation of American Scientists, the nuclear bombs in Europe are the last of a huge arsenal of forward-deployed weapons that NATO and the Warsaw Pact used to deploy in Europe during the Cold War. The United States retains full control of these weapons in peacetime. In times of war, under certain circumstances, some would be handed over to Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey for delivery by their national air forces. The approximately 480 nuclear bombs in Europe are intended for use in accordance with NATO nuclear strike plans, the report asserts, against targets in Russia or countries in the Middle East such as Iran and Syria.

http://www.nukestrat.com/us/afn/nato.htm

I must admit I was surprised that these weapons still existed in Europe even in drastically reduced numbers. However, the weapons remain the property of the US. They are intended for sanctioned NATO operations and could not be used by any NATO county on a unilateral basis. I would be very interested to hear what other members have to say re this issue. Maybe it’s worth its own thread.

Cheers

[Waylander]

The US have full control over these weapons.
These weapons are stored in facilities were the inner perimeter is secured by US troops and the outer perimeter by local troops.

There is no way these weapons can be used for anything else than strikes against russia in a nuclear exchange.

[Tasman]

and this are the puplic known 4 Walrus class submarines:
Hr.Ms. Walrus
Hr.Ms. Zeeleeuw
Hr.Ms. Dolfijn
Hr.Ms. Bruinvis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And again NOT KNOWN only if you are dutch and living next to the place where they beeing built and has input from inside.
3 new class attack submarines are being build right now they will be a part of the dutch "extra assets"



Are the submarines you refer to Moray class boats building for possible export (for example to Indonesia)?

Cheers

[Gladius]

Are the submarines you refer to Moray class boats building for possible export (for example to Indonesia)?

Cheers

Building?

All RDM proposals to sell the Moray or refitted Zwaardvis (Egypt, Indonesia, Taiwan, Portugal & Malaysia), were finally rejected.

The Indonesian Navy discarded the Moray deal some years ago. IIRC the contract for six submarines for the Indonesian Navy was issued to Russia last October.

[Tasman]

Building?

All RDM proposals to sell the Moray or refitted Zwaardvis (Egypt, Indonesia, Taiwan, Portugal & Malaysia), were finally rejected.

The Indonesian Navy discarded the Moray deal some years ago. IIRC the contract for six submarines for the Indonesian Navy was issued to Russia last October.

That's why I am confused about DJ Vileroy's post in which he says :

3 new class attack submarines are being build right now they will be a part of the dutch "extra assets"


I can't find any info about subs being built for the Royal Netherland's Navy but there is info about ongoing efforts to secure export orders! What are the three subs that it is claimed are being built in the Netherlands?

Cheers

[Gladius]

Dear DJ Vileroy... In the best case you are dreaming, in the worst... you are jock or a Troll. ¿Lies or a huge imagination? That is the question, man.

4 LC Class frigates
Hr. Ms. De Zeven Provinciën (F 802)

Hr. Ms. Tromp (F 803)

Hr. Ms. De Ruyter (F 804)

Hr. Ms. Evertsen (F 805)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
NOT KNOWN
fully upgraded and missle capable and anti-submarine support with a fully anti missle/air systems)
4 LCF Frigates will be added in the summer of 2007 2 allready in action.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The LCF Frigate is the De Zeven Provincien class not a new class. Four units built. The last was commisioned in 2005.

For your information the LCF acronym means Luchtverdediging en Commando Fregatten translated: Air-Defence and Command frigates.

To be clear, the RNLN have four LCF Frigates only. Not new ASW Frigates are being building at this moment.


7 M Frigates
Hr. Ms. Karel Doorman (F 827)

Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829)

MARDET. Tjerk Hiddes (F 830)

Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831)

Hr. Ms. Van Nes (F 833)

Hr. Ms. Van Galen (F 834)

Hr. Ms. Van Speijk (F 828)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also NOT KNOWN
They are upgrading them now to fully operational fast respond war ships.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Man, seek better info sources, or wake up from dreamland.

Only five Karel Doorman remain in active service at this moment, but three of them will be decommissioned and delivered to foreign Navies in the next few years.

The frigate Hr. Ms. Karel Doorman (F827) was decommissioned and stripped of some systems, now remains awaiting to be transfered to the Belgian Navy. Another M-Class frigate the Hr. Ms. Willem Van Der Zaan (F829) was decommissioned in August 2006 and will be handed to Belgium in 2008.

The frigate Hr. Ms. Tjerk Hiddes (F 830) was decommisioned last year and will be transfered to Chile during this year.

The frigates Hr. Ms. Van Nes (F 833) and Hr. Ms. Van Galen (F 834) were sold to Portugal and will be decommissioned soon.

On near future only two M-Class (Karel Doorman) will remain in service with the RNLN, the Hr. Ms. Van Speijk (F 828) and Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831).


Middelharnis has 40 not known F 16D2A Figters with harpoons and 3 other type's of planes don't know the type.

LOL!

The Royal Netherlands Air Force doesn't have any Air Base with Falcons (of any type) at Middelharnis.

And Swifterband is a airbase that is home to a 25 F14's (Not dutch but in use of the dutch and can be used anytime.
33 special custom build not known F 16's with asm,harpoon and precision bombing options.


The same thing but for the US-Navy. And for the records... The last F-14 Tomcats were retired from the US-Navy Squadrons in March 2006.

The two chopper carriers will also soon be operational we use now 2 chopper carriers from a nother nation to practice and getting used to the new type of ship.

One (not two) helicopter carrier / LHD or a mix design LHD/AOR is now in study by the Royal Netherlands Navy and that is all.

And there is one more thing the dutch has also 8 more big/medium warships
but they are in use of the belguim navvy for drug patrolling and practice.

That is huge invention or a lie of enormous proportions.

For your info, the belgian navy have only three (3) warshps (if we count the small P-902 Liberation as a warship). Only two frigates (to be replaced by two Dutch M-Class) are in active service, the Wielingen (F-910) and the Westdiep (F911) both built by belgian shiyards.

There are also 6 meduim frigates in use of the france navvy for extra protection by missions and ecorting tasks.

If you are implying "six dutch frigates" in use by the French Navy... Well, that is another fantasy.

[Gladius]

That's why I am confused about DJ Vileroy's post in which he says :

3 new class attack submarines are being build right now they will be a part of the dutch "extra assets"

I can't find any info about subs being built for the Royal Netherland's Navy but there is info about ongoing efforts to secure export orders! What are the three subs that it is claimed are being built in the Netherlands?

Cheers

Tasman, read my comment about the post of DJ Vileroy. The credibility of this guy is a big ZERO (0).

AFAIK no submarines are being building by RDM at this time. The RNLN is not interested on replace the Walrus. And without foreign customers to pay them, would be very strange any RDM (owned now IIRC by the Port of Rotterdam) unilateral construction.

[swerve]

Hello everyone

Iam dutch
And iam living next to an naval airbase and two naval and air factory's where the test and build new planes and ships.
Recently the dutch goverment did buy 4 new LCF Frigates and 3 new class submarines (don't know the type) my uncle is senior staf member of a navvy task force, and he said:
...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And again NOT KNOWN only if you are dutch and living next to the place where they beeing built and has input from inside.
3 new class attack submarines are being build right now they will be a part of the dutch "extra assets"

...
The two chopper carriers will also soon be operational we use now 2 chopper carriers from a nother nation to practice and getting used to the new type of ship.
...
Greetz Nico

Nico,

where in Rotterdam do you live?

It's very hard to hide a submarine. Too big . . .

As for what you say about "chopper carriers", weeellll - who could you borrow them from? Who has two to spare? And hide them where? Even in China, they can't hide ships that size, & the Netherlands is a small country. Also, the Netherlands has two publicly declared LPDs, so there'd be no need to practice helicopter operations from borrowed LPHs or LHDs.

I think you may have been posting from one of those cafes with the leaves painted on the window. :D

[Tasman]

Tasman, read my comment about the post of DJ Vileroy. The credibility of this guy is a big ZERO (0).

AFAIK no submarines are being building by RDM at this time. The RNLN is not interested on replace the Walrus. And without foreign customers to pay them, would be very strange any RDM (owned now IIRC by the Port of Rotterdam) unilateral construction.

Thanks Gladius. I should have woken up to it!

Cheers

[contedicavour]

Nico,

where in Rotterdam do you live?

It's very hard to hide a submarine. Too big . . .

As for what you say about "chopper carriers", weeellll - who could you borrow them from? Who has two to spare? And hide them where? Even in China, they can't hide ships that size, & the Netherlands is a small country. Also, the Netherlands has two publicly declared LPDs, so there'd be no need to practice helicopter operations from borrowed LPHs or LHDs.

I think you may have been posting from one of those cafes with the leaves painted on the window. :D

This fellow must be daydreaming indeed. The Netherlands could afford to expand their navy instead of reducing it to 6 FFG, 4 SSK and 2 LPD ... but clearly the only new construction plans involve 4 corvettes/OPVH to replace the Doormans that are being sold to Belgium and Chile. With no new construction SSKs for a while, I'd be surprised Dutch shipbuilders are still even trying to remain in the international submarine market. They haven't participated to tenders for a while now, as the market is down to 3 actors : DCN, HDW (who controls kockums) and the Russians.

cheers

[swerve]

...With no new construction SSKs for a while, I'd be surprised Dutch shipbuilders are still even trying to remain in the international submarine market. They haven't participated to tenders for a while now, as the market is down to 3 actors : DCN, HDW (who controls kockums) and the Russians.

cheers

Agreed.

There used to be two submarine builders in the Netherlands. One (Wilton-Fijenoord?) closed in the 1990s, after no orders for years. Now a ship repair yard under new owners, & after all these years the chance of them being able to re-start submarine production would seem to be approximately zero. Certainly couldn't hide it, in a commercial yard doing varied business. The other one was RDM, which kept going for longer. Built the last Dutch subs, & tried selling subs to other countries, but went bust in 2004 &, as Gladius said, the yard was taken over b the Port of Rotterdam, which had guaranteed (controversially) some of RDMs debts. I'm not sure what it's doing, but I very much doubt it could build a sub now. Collective knowledge lost. Would have to re-acquire the skills, which would take a while.

[DJ Vileroy]

Hello there.

The information i provided was not complete, there are some funds that provide extra money to do some things i checked it out because i could also not believe it, so in my opinion yeah its unlikly that the dutch could do these things, but the reality is differend because the netherlands do say we have no money and need to cut down to get more money, but what the really do is rebuilding everything there is an factory called dupont and stork here both factories are producing only parts but both company's have a deal with the dutch goverment and the do make submarines with the skills from other people so for example the engine is built in tokyo the steel comes from france and the electronics from a nother country.
This way they do not need huge factory's only a place to fit the part together.
The details of all the things i said will be puplished in the a major naval magazine that is provided by the dutch navvy.
I really really not stoned and do did not drink this is fact what i said.
one quistion oke?
Why is the netherlands paying 7 times more to nato than a country like france or uk?
Because every one knows that a lot of nato assets are dutch property.
The belguim fleet is 80% dutch you can find this on the navvy site itself.
The german navvy has also a few dutch assets in there arsenal.
Because every EU country is doing what they are best in and in 2010 the EU like to realise one army and one navvy so no dutch navvy anymore or german but one navvy under EU flag because the are going to merge all army's together.
Don't you not read dutch news paper?
Or watch dutch news?
Or watch a program called netwerk?
There you can find every single thing that i said here.
Are there any dutch people here? perhaps they can say a little more.
And middelharnis was a mistake it closed down 2 years ago and the planes are sold to ???
And swifterband is only a training ground so sorry for the bad info oke?
But let me see i need to proof it right?
The subs are being built at a
http://www.damen.nl company called damen and Schelde Shipbuilding they are partly controlled by the goverment the also built ships for the uk and us they resenly recieved a huge contract from the us to built some ships based on older type's http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/
So what the dutch do not built warships?

Iam not joking iam not telling story's.......its simply fact..
But i get it you try to find info by internet ....to bad you will not find it wait a few months and it is writen in every naval and army news letter.
The first time i also coult not believe this info but it is fact strange but true there is mutch more going on then you see on your tv.
But it seems that you are all smart guys and you all know perfectly whats right and not right?

Oke again a quistion tell me please where the 3 subs are based on:

France electronics?
Australian?
Or China Perhaps?

and where are the engineers are comming from?
mmm..... a please come on guys
your own goverment is giving us the skilled people to get the job done.

You can find this info in almost every real navvy magazine.
The dutch has given 400million us dollars to get this, from bush hahaha.
For more info see puplished buget papers at the goverment website there is also written exact the things i said in the early post but only in the summer it will be puplished in detail.

So before you call me a zero please, think and search and you will see......
I am willing to proof it if i have to but why should i?
Because you don't know?
Please look around people there is more.

Greetz nico

O ps the 2 lcf frigates build by the dutch and norway are for the US also but i bet you did not know this?

[harryriedl]

[quote]Only five Karel Doorman remain in active service at this moment, but three of them will be decommissioned and delivered to foreign Navies in the next few years.

The frigate Hr. Ms. Karel Doorman (F827) was decommissioned and stripped of some systems, now remains awaiting to be transfered to the Belgian Navy. Another M-Class frigate the Hr. Ms. Willem Van Der Zaan (F829) was decommissioned in August 2006 and will be handed to Belgium in 2008.

The frigate Hr. Ms. Tjerk Hiddes (F 830) was decommisioned last year and will be transfered to Chile during this year.

The frigates Hr. Ms. Van Nes (F 833) and Hr. Ms. Van Galen (F 834) were sold to Portugal and will be decommissioned soon.

On near future only two M-Class (Karel Doorman) will remain in service with the RNLN, the Hr. Ms. Van Speijk (F 828) and Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831).
[quote]
i would like to add that its Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831) was sold to portugal it replaced Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829) because Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829)was sailing around the the Med when the sale to portugal was agree and was unavalible.
the Doorman's are heavily tasked the dutch should have more ships

[DJ Vileroy]

Only five Karel Doorman remain in active service at this moment, but three of them will be decommissioned and delivered to foreign Navies in the next few years.

The frigate Hr. Ms. Karel Doorman (F827) was decommissioned and stripped of some systems, now remains awaiting to be transfered to the Belgian Navy. Another M-Class frigate the Hr. Ms. Willem Van Der Zaan (F829) was decommissioned in August 2006 and will be handed to Belgium in 2008.

The frigate Hr. Ms. Tjerk Hiddes (F 830) was decommisioned last year and will be transfered to Chile during this year.

The frigates Hr. Ms. Van Nes (F 833) and Hr. Ms. Van Galen (F 834) were sold to Portugal and will be decommissioned soon.

On near future only two M-Class (Karel Doorman) will remain in service with the RNLN, the Hr. Ms. Van Speijk (F 828) and Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831).

i would like to add that its Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831) was sold to portugal it replaced Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829) because Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829)was sailing around the the Med when the sale to portugal was agree and was unavalible.
the Doorman's are heavily tasked the dutch should have more ships


I agree this info is correct, but if you look on the pages of damen and westerschelde ship building you will see that there are built a lot more ships the latest ship is an LPD for the dutch navvy, called johan de witt it was ready in the end of 2006
Again damen and westerschelde are building vessels in rapid mode togther with STORK and Dupont so check this info please before you say that iam stoned or something........
There are some other projects going on right now, or do you really think that cutting medical and university bugets that it is for roads and houses? and new stoplights?
See please go to google and search for naval shipyards there are at least 20 in the netherlands and they al are fully active and building warships for everyone how like to have them and right now the are building dutch naval vessels you can see in on the pages.........jeeee

But one thing you al are right the ships are comming in parts and the will be put together here at damen or westerschelde because the few shipyard that are building own ships are closed but now we buy the parts instead of creating them by our selfs.

Please check it oke?
And let me know.

Greetz nico

[Waylander]

Ahem.

Mod?

BS alarm!!!!

[tatra]

Please check it oke?
And let me know.

Greetz nico
Zeg Nico, wordt het niet eens tijd die horse shit van je elders te gaan verkopen? Wij houden hier niet zo van dit soort flauwekul. Eerste en tevens laatste vriendelijke verzoek.

:cool:

[Tasman]

Zeg Nico, wordt het niet eens tijd die horse shit van je elders te gaan verkopen? Wij houden hier niet zo van dit soort flauwekul. Eerste en tevens laatste vriendelijke verzoek.

:cool:

Excellent advice tatra!

Cheers

[contedicavour]

Ahem.

Mod?

BS alarm!!!!

I can't believe the guy is persevering. The links themselves do not provide the tiniest confirmation of his speculations.
If at least he concentrated on those programmes that really do exist such as the 4 corvettes or the planned LPH...
Besides, one thing is saying that Dutch technology is well present in neighboring countries' navies (which is true), but it is entirely another thing to claim that there are Dutch ships everywhere ;)

cheers

[Eggy]

haha thanks for the laugh Vileroy but sadly the only new ships that will be build are the 4 Oceangoing Patrol Vessels and a Joint Support Ship (will be the biggest ship in the fleet) that will replace one of the AORs (Hr. Ms. Zuiderkruis). The JSS will have room for up to four Chinooks or 6 NH-90s or similar medium sized helicopters but it is not a helicopter carrier or LHD at all.

[tatra]

I can't believe the guy is persevering. The links themselves do not provide the tiniest confirmation of his speculations.
If at least he concentrated on those programmes that really do exist such as the 4 corvettes or the planned LPH...
Besides, one thing is saying that Dutch technology is well present in neighboring countries' navies (which is true), but it is entirely another thing to claim that there are Dutch ships everywhere ;)

cheers
But there are ... only mainly under water and very very old :onfloorl:

Also, there 's a lot of dutch stuff on ships of foreign navies (Thales/Signaal radar and C3I gear) and there's plenty of systems advice.

[contedicavour]

haha thanks for the laugh Vileroy but sadly the only new ships that will be build are the 4 Oceangoing Patrol Vessels and a Joint Support Ship (will be the biggest ship in the fleet) that will replace one of the AORs (Hr. Ms. Zuiderkruis). The JSS will have room for up to four Chinooks or 6 NH-90s or similar medium sized helicopters but it is not a helicopter carrier or LHD at all.

I've looked around for drawings or mockups of the OPVs and JSS but I haven't found any. I'd expect the OPV to be enlarged Sigma corvettes ? Do you have any links or pictures ?
Thanks

cheers

[Eggy]

There have been multiple concepts of the OPV but the Navy would like to have it's own design build but we'll see how things will go (see attachments for Navy design). Now I've heard different stories about the loadout ranging from pimped sigma corvettes to fishing boats. :)

I wouldn't be surprised if The JSS (or JLOS in Dutch) was along the lines of the Enforcer series in design. But I haven't seen any concepts of it yet.

[submerged]

there's an outdated article that contains some pictures in the dutch magazine 'marineblad':

http://www.kvmo.nl/pdf/marineblad_jun06_volledig.pdf

(another AI can be found in "Leidraad Maritiem Optreden" issued by the RNLN but i'm not able to find this one yet in digital format)

note that nothing about the design has been decided yet so it could vary widely from the one showed, just like the OPV design

PS:
to DJ Vileroy: go harrass yourself somewhere else please, you're just making a fool outta yourself here by stating all these unfunded "facts".. new submarines.. :onfloorl: :onfloorl:

[contedicavour]

Thanks to both of you for the corvette and JSS/JLOS pictures. The JLOS really looks like an enlarged Rotterdam LPD with a much bigger flight deck. The corvette has adequate space for NH90 and serious artillery though I can't see whether there are VLS for ESSM for instance. Especially if the corvettes are supposed to patrol around Aruba with a hostile well equipped regime just south...

cheers

[Avatar]

Although I agree to much of the above, I disagree with the statement that the best unit against a submarine is another submarine. Especially when the other sub is a D/E or modern Nuc. Footprint of a sub against another is just to small and its operational speed to slow. Better to use low frequency active sonars on helicopters and frigates in a multi static concept (as the dutch are also developping). Beside that we need to increase no acoustic detection capabilities.
There are a lot of very important things for submarines to do (losing them as a capability is the last thing I want), but ASW is, to my opinion, not one of them.

[submerged]

the LFAS concept has allready been tested several times in RNLN training excercises and worked like a charm from what i heard, detection ranges where greatly enhanced over normal active transmissions, alltho in some cases u don't want active transmissions and give away your location and in those cases the passive sonar suite of a sub outperforms that of a surface vessel with ease. The enhancement of non-accoustic sensors like IR and EM sensors would be a wise idea but even better would be some dedicated ASW capability instead of the current situation, they should've never sold our P3C's..