Su-30MKI vs Su-30MKK

[P.A.F]

I have read many articles and magazines regarding this issue. some claim that one of the Su-30's is better than the other. so guys, i would like to know your views on this. which of the Su-30's is more capible in different roles such as air to air combat, ground strike etc... and why?
please don't be biased.
cheers!!!!:)

[nuke_em]

The MKI is better than the MKK MKI was jointly built by indians and russians it is a better variant and is only manufactured for IAF:D

[P.A.F]

The MKI is better than the MKK MKI was jointly built by indians and russians it is a better variant and is only manufactured for IAF:D

why? what makes the MKI better than the MKK?

[nuke_em]

ok here



Though regarded as a variant of Su-30, the Su-30 MKI is a much better fighter aircraft. The variant has significant upgrades on it from the basic Sukhoi Su-30 MK version. The aircraft was jointly designed by Russia's Sukhoi and India's Hindustan Aeronautics and DRDO. Israeli Aircraft Industries also played a key role in the development of the project.

Improvements include 3D-vectoring thrust engines and the N-011 radar which has a detection range of 150 to 160 km and a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of 3 to 5 m². Unlike most similar fighters, it is also equipped to deliver nuclear weapons.


Su-30 MKI Avionics

The avionics in the Su-30MKI are all weather, dual frequency, digital multi mode, with the NIIP N-011M radar, which has a 200 km tracking range and a 350 km search range. The aircraft's radar can track and actively engage 20 enemy targets and engage the 8 most dangerous simultaneously. This radar can track and engage tactical ballistic/cruise missiles and motionless helicopters (very few aircraft in the world have this capability). The radar at sea has a 20-metre detection resolution of large targets at sea, up to distances of 400 km. Small sea target detected at sea at a distances of 120 km.

India plans to install Astra air-to-air missile and BrahMos supersonic cruise missile to the Su-30 MKI. With the instalment of these new missiles, the MKI can be a serious contender to many modern fighter jets including the Typhoon and the Rafale.

Currently India has never let any external air force practice or exercise with it's Su-30 MKI variants. However, the American Air force has exercised with the Indian Air force’s MK variants during Cope India '04.


Major variants include the K, MK and MKI aircraft. The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI variant is often confused by the with the Sukhoi Su-30 MK-1 variant. The MK-1 variant has significantly less fighter capabilities than MKI variant. The Sukhoi Su-30 MK-1 variant is a dual-seater, long-range interceptor, whereas the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI variant is a dual-seater, multi-role capability fighter jet. On the other hand the Sukhoi Su-30K variant is a dual-seater, limited multi-role capability fighter jet. There are several other key differences between the MKI and other variants of Su-30 aircraft. The Su-30 MKI has a maximum range, with one in-flight refuelling, of 8000 km. The Su-30MK and Su-30MK-1 has a maximum range, with one in-flight refuelling, of 5200 km (35% less than MKI variant). The Su-30MKI has thrust vectoring engines whereas the Su-30MK and Su-30MK-1 do not have thrust vectoring engines

[nuke_em]

General characteristics

* Crew: Two
* Length: 22.10 m (72 ft 51 in)
* Wingspan: 14.70 m (48 ft 23 in)
* Height: 6.38 m (22 ft 89 in)
* Wing area: 62.04 m² (667.8 ft²)
* Empty weight: 24,900 kg (54,900 lb)
* Loaded weight: 34,500 kg (76,100 lb)
* Maximum gross takeoff weight: kg (lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,400 lbf) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1,10, 1,350 km/h at sea level; Mach 2+, 2,135+ km/h at 11,000 m (840 mph at sea level / 1,330+ mph at 36,000 ft)
* Range: 1,500 km (930 mi)
* Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 305 m/s (60,000 ft/min)
* Wing loading: 414 kg/m² (85 lb/ft²)
* Thrust/weight: 1.10:1

Armament

* 1x 30 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 cannon with 150 rounds
* 14 AAMs R-37, R-73, R-77 only on outboard stations

[tphuang]

MKI is not only manufactured for IAF. MKM and MKA are all using similar standards (slightly different though).

It's about different doctrines. Plaaf was looking for something that can do precision bombing, A2S, A2G strikes and such. I know MKI can do that too, but MKK is considered to have the stronger airframe with the greater payload due to its commonalities with su-35ub.

As for MKI, IAF was looking for the air superiority type and it got that. It's clearly a superior plane in terms of avionics and maneuverability to MKK. By the way, it uses a 2D TVC engine, not a 3D.

Also, there is the issue of factory association. China with knaapo and India with iapo. Another thing is that China needed its mkk really fast to scare Taiwan and it wasn't looking for too much new technology, so it chose the less risky mkk design. It was also looking for something that was in Russian air force and su-27sm upgraded (done by knaapo) uses a lot of technology developed for mkk. On the other hand, India was willing to wait longer to integrate all the new technology, so it got a better plane out of it.

[berry580]

SU-30MKK is made for China while the SU-30MKI is for India and it has thrust vectoring, thats the main thing which separates the two.

I heard somewhere the SU-30MKI has superior avionic compared to SU-30MKK, hence it unit price is higher than the SU-30MKK.

[aaaditya]

another major difference between the mki and the mkk are the presence of canards on the mki ,while the mkk does not have canards.

the mki has french ,indian,and israeli avionics.

the mki has inspired several aircrafts,i believe vietnam has the mki configuration,the malaysian mkm configuration is based on the mki ,but the israeli equipment on the mki have been replaced by the indian and french equipment on the mkm,recently one african country acquire the su30 variant for which hal is carrying out the subcontracting work particularly with respect to avionics.

the avionics system of mki were developed and integrated under the project vetrivale.according to the indian air chief the mki's will be upgraded in blocks,these upgrades will include the irbis snowleapord radar which has been offered by the russia to venezuela,integration of the indigenously designed astra bvr missile,indo-russian brahmos missile and the ks172 missiles.

the mki also has indigenous ew system instead of the israeli or french ones,these are the tarang and the tempest pods,i believe the recently developed shiv pod can also be used .

[tphuang]

hmm, Vietnam actually got mkk2. That one African country is Algeria.

As for KS-172, it's originally developed for su-35, not for mki. It just happens that the Russians want to sell it to the su-30 customers too, And also, this is not some super weapon.

dude, Tarang is just the RWR. The EW suite is French.

[norinco89]

How much does the MKI and the MKK2 cost?

[XEROX]

The Indian Sukhoi, MKI is much more advanced then other derivatives in terms of its avionics and sensors.(mainly Indian, French, Israeli, Russian)


It should also be noted that the Indian MKI program is in blocks, so each block is going to be more advanced then the next, with powerful radar, stealth characteristics and progressive evolution of A2G, A2A missions gradually coming into play over the next 12/14 years.

[dabrownguy]

It really depends on the block of MKI your talking about. The Su-30MKI also has the same weapons payload. HAL has built 2 MKI's with stronger perhaps weaker airframe but used more compisote materials. The Su-30MKI also has better cockpit reducing the workload and enhancing the situational awarness. It also comes with a open archetecture design. So maybe we'll see Metour AAM.:cool:
But if that doesnt happen the K-172 will be there. India and Russia have begun developing this missile for Flankers and perhaps Falcrums. So sales would need approval from both sides. Just like PJ-10. I've also heard that the latest tranche III has 3D tvc. If anyone can confirm this please. The Su-30MKI also has a better radar. One N 011 radar fitted with BARS technology which allows the aircraft to indentify the aircraft on the engines it uses.:confused: Beats me but thats how it works. Other then that the other majour defference is that it uses Tempest EW system which is a spinoff of LCA project.

[tphuang]

hmm, Vietnam actually got mkk2. That one African country is Algeria.

As for KS-172, it's originally developed for su-35, not for mki. It just happens that the Russians want to sell it to the su-30 customers too, And also, this is not some super weapon.

dude, Tarang is just the RWR. The EW suite is French.
never mind, my bad. The EW suite isn't french. Well, if Tempest EW suite is as good or better than the Israeli one, then that's quite an accomplishment for India.

As for engine, I think you guys might be going for AL-31FM1 or FM2 or FM3 or even AL-41F1 in the future.

As for pricing MK2 cost China around 38 million each. I'm not sure what kind of packaging that included. I would assume that cost included 100 R-77s and some other AAMs and possibly an assortment of Kh-59ME and KH-31A.

As for MKI, you can find out some of the information here http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm
I know that MKM cost 50 million each. Although, I'm not sure if that included the extra money that they paid the French for integration of French avionics.

[aaaditya]

never mind, my bad. The EW suite isn't french. Well, if Tempest EW suite is as good or better than the Israeli one, then that's quite an accomplishment for India.

As for engine, I think you guys might be going for AL-31FM1 or FM2 or FM3 or even AL-41F1 in the future.

As for pricing MK2 cost China around 38 million each. I'm not sure what kind of packaging that included. I would assume that cost included 100 R-77s and some other AAMs and possibly an assortment of Kh-59ME and KH-31A.

As for MKI, you can find out some of the information here http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm
I know that MKM cost 50 million each. Although, I'm not sure if that included the extra money that they paid the French for integration of French avionics.

iam sure a modified version (uprated and improved) of the al55 engines can also be used,these engines are likely to power the hjt-36 sitara and the hjt-39 cat,if they can be modified for mig29 and the su30mki ,then greater commonality can be achieved.

[Black Legion]

I too have a question regarding the Sukhoi aircraft and other. I know the project for the SU47 and MIG 35MFI were abandoned primarily because of lack of funds....but I was wondering how many Sukhoi planes like the SU35, SU37 does the Russian airforce have in their inventory...last I heard the Russian force hasn't seriously updated their fleet since the mid 1990s:confused:
Could someone share some light on this, I would appreciate it.

[aaaditya]

I too have a question regarding the Sukhoi aircraft and other. I know the project for the SU47 and MIG 35MFI were abandoned primarily because of lack of funds....but I was wondering how many Sukhoi planes like the SU35, SU37 does the Russian airforce have in their inventory...last I heard the Russian force hasn't seriously updated their fleet since the mid 1990s:confused:
Could someone share some light on this, I would appreciate it.

the mig-mfi has been abandoned due to the lack of funds,but the same cannot be said about the su47 berkut,berkut was developed as a concept vehicle to validate forward swept wing and fifth genration technologies,and it has served its purpose,many of the lessons learned from the berkut are now being used on the pak-fa project(the pak-fa can be considered as a stealthy conventionally winged version of the berkut.)

[norinco89]

the burkut was funded by the indians.

Both sukhois do what they were made to do.

Both nations need to produce domesticaallly to reduce costs.

Both countries expecially india need to have more indigious parts to once again reduce parts.

China needs canards, a better engine(which is on the way), a 3d tvc and a new radar.

the mki is of course more better than mkk but the costs and role they play are quite different.

[aaaditya]

the burkut was funded by the indians.

Both sukhois do what they were made to do.

Both nations need to produce domesticaallly to reduce costs.

Both countries expecially india need to have more indigious parts to once again reduce parts.

China needs canards, a better engine(which is on the way), a 3d tvc and a new radar.

the mki is of course more better than mkk but the costs and role they play are quite different.

buddy can you provide a source for your statement that india funded berkut,iam asking this out of genuine interest because i dont think that india funded berkut. india is still considering its involvement in the russian fifth gen fighter aircraft project .the berkut was a technology demonstrator project to validate the fifth generation concepts and technologies.

[norinco89]

Russia began it and like most of its projects it ran out of funds to finish it.

India didnt fund the whole thing but it just partnered up with russia. India provided the money for the project to continue, russia provides the resources.

India provided money for it to continue therefore it funded it.

[suryaaa]

aaditya you said that india is waiting to join the pak-fa.in earlier posts we said that india is an active member.some clarification please.

[aaaditya]

aaditya you said that india is waiting to join the pak-fa.in earlier posts we said that india is an active member.some clarification please.

russia invited india to join the pak-fa project,and both countries have agreed in principle to develop a modern fifth generation ombat aircraft,however the pakfa in its current form does not meet iaf's requirements,the iaf wants a single engined jet ,where as pakfa is twin engine,india is now looking at the russian mig's designs(mig i-2000),sukhoi in the meantime offered a single engined ,light weight variant of pakfa known as the pakfa lite.

india is still trying to choose between the two and hence has not given funding and officically joined the project.

[aaaditya]

Russia began it and like most of its projects it ran out of funds to finish it.

India didnt fund the whole thing but it just partnered up with russia. India provided the money for the project to continue, russia provides the resources.

India provided money for it to continue therefore it funded it.

well man iam quite sure that you can provide a source to your statement,because iam quite sure that india did not fund s47 berkut at any stage.

besides think about this logically why would india fund something which it does not want.
the berkut was entirely an self financed project just like the mig1.50 was mig's internal development project.

[suryaaa]

Russia began it and like most of its projects it ran out of funds to finish it.

India didnt fund the whole thing but it just partnered up with russia. India provided the money for the project to continue, russia provides the resources.

India provided money for it to continue therefore it funded it.

actualy what he asked is some solid proof ,we can all make assumptions considering the present situation and i too hope that is the case,so post the link of the site which says this.

[aaaditya]

well here is an article which clearly mentions that the su30mkm is similiar to the su-30mki.

here check out the link:

http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news_business.php?id=193716


On the expertise needed to maintain and repair the Sukhoi planes, Poveshchenko said the Malaysian technicians would be taught in India.

"Russia has been training the Indian technicians and now the Indians can prepare the Malaysian technicians because the (Sukhoi) planes (used by India) are similar," he said.

He explained that the Malaysian version of the Sukhoi differed from the Indian plane (the Su-30MKI) because the Israeli avionics in the Su-30MKI were replaced by those French-made.

"So Malaysia will have no Israeli components in its Sukhoi planes," he added.

Yesterday, Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak, who is also the Defence Minister, presented a letter of intent to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for the training of technicians from the Royal Malaysian Air Force.

Povenshchenko said a group of Sukhoi experts and technicians would be coming soon to Malaysia to assist in training and maintenance of the Su-30MKM.

[aaaditya]

hey guys here is an interesting translated article on the su30's offered to venezuela ,this article contains the pretty deatailed information of the irbis radar.

check out this link:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.aporrea.org/dameverbo.php%3Fdocid%3D76261&prev=/search%3Fq%3DNIIP%2BIrbis%2BPESA%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D


The radar N035 Irbis (Irbis-E for export airplanes), developed by the institute Tikhomirov NIIP for Su-35 is the continuation of the Bars radar of Su-30MKI and, like its predecessor, it has antenna of I scan electronically passive (WEIGHT). According to the NIIP, the radar WEIGHT ' clásicó (for this company) is still far from being obsolete and is as good as the first radars with active antenna (AESA).

The advantages of the Irbis on the Bars include a ampler reach of operational frequencies, greater angle of zone search (due to the best antenna and conduction of two steps), reaches greater and better resistance to interferences (jamming, thanks to a more powerful transmitter), as well as greater resolution, as much in the detection of aerial targets or surface.

The Irbis-E radar is able of traquear-while-scans up to 30 targets, eight of which they can be almost continuously traqueados with sufficient exactitude for simultaneous enlistments by eight missiles air-air (AAMs) with active radar of midrange (Rvv-ae) or by four AAMs of long reach with active radar (K-100).

The Irbis-E is able to hook simultaneously up to four targets of surface. In the way of combined-arms operation, the radar is able to look for simultaneously in the airspace and the terrestrial surface including the enlistment of an only aerial target with sufficient exactitude to use a missile of active radar.

Thanks to the power peak of 20Kw, the Irbis-E radar vee the aerial target of a section of three square meters from one distances nonsmaller 350-400Km not less On guard frontal or than 150 km On guard of tail (to great altitude). Targets ' furtivos' (with section of radar of 0,01 m2) are detected from a distance of 90km.

The prototype of the Iris radar began aerial tests the 24 of June of the 2005 in the experimental fighter Su-30Mk2. The tests confirmed the reach search of the project as well as the possibility of the simultaneous work with nine targets, two real and seven imitation ones. The radar worked simultaneously in air-air and air-to-surface ways.

[myskykk]

another major difference between the mki and the mkk are the presence of canards on the mki ,while the mkk does not have canards.

the mki has french ,indian,and israeli avionics.

the mki has inspired several aircrafts,i believe vietnam has the mki configuration,the malaysian mkm configuration is based on the mki ,but the israeli equipment on the mki have been replaced by the indian and french equipment on the mkm,recently one african country acquire the su30 variant for which hal is carrying out the subcontracting work particularly with respect to avionics.

the avionics system of mki were developed and integrated under the project vetrivale.according to the indian air chief the mki's will be upgraded in blocks,these upgrades will include the irbis snowleapord radar which has been offered by the russia to venezuela,integration of the indigenously designed astra bvr missile,indo-russian brahmos missile and the ks172 missiles.

the mki also has indigenous ew system instead of the israeli or french ones,these are the tarang and the tempest pods,i believe the recently developed shiv pod can also be used .



Actually Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI was built from different factory and commpany. Su-30MKI was IAPO private production without supported by offcial Sukhoi !(because both of them is the competitor for russia SU family export). IAPO was the part of Sukhoi offcial factory in Soviet Union before divided into two parts. Why china got Su-30MKK instead of Su-30MKI?
Su-30MKK and Su-30MKi is complete different series!
1.Su-30MKK base on SU-33UB/SU-35UB/Su-37body! Su-30MKI base on Su-27UB!
2.For finish different mission and target .
3.Su-30MKK can got much support and update from Sukhoi offcial. that's why you can see Su-30MKK2.....3 soon
4.Su-30 have more update potential than Su-30MKI
5.Russia air force will update of Su-27S SK SMK UB..... base on SU-30MKK!

[suryaaa]

Actually Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI was built from different factory and commpany. Su-30MKI was IAPO private production without supported by offcial Sukhoi !(because both of them is the competitor for russia SU family export). IAPO was the part of Sukhoi offcial factory in Soviet Union before divided into two parts. Why china got Su-30MKK instead of Su-30MKI?
Su-30MKK and Su-30MKi is complete different series!
1.Su-30MKK base on SU-33UB/SU-35UB/Su-37body! Su-30MKI base on Su-27UB!
2.For finish different mission and target .
3.Su-30MKK can got much support and update from Sukhoi offcial. that's why you can see Su-30MKK2.....3 soon
4.Su-30 have more update potential than Su-30MKI
5.Russia air force will update of Su-27S SK SMK UB..... base on SU-30MKK!

1)can you specify what kind of updates that su-30 has which cannot be done on mki.

2)your coment about china can get mki if they wanted is not right because in modern day battle technology counts ,and know that russian (or i should say ussr after they broke up ) have not got any chance to upgrade their tech ,what all things we see now is what developed by ussr.that is mki has a blend of diff tech from east ,weast & indigneous.china if wanted to get mki wont get western tech.

[aaaditya]

Actually Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI was built from different factory and commpany. Su-30MKI was IAPO private production without supported by offcial Sukhoi !(because both of them is the competitor for russia SU family export). IAPO was the part of Sukhoi offcial factory in Soviet Union before divided into two parts. Why china got Su-30MKK instead of Su-30MKI?
Su-30MKK and Su-30MKi is complete different series!
1.Su-30MKK base on SU-33UB/SU-35UB/Su-37body! Su-30MKI base on Su-27UB!
2.For finish different mission and target .
3.Su-30MKK can got much support and update from Sukhoi offcial. that's why you can see Su-30MKK2.....3 soon
4.Su-30 have more update potential than Su-30MKI
5.Russia air force will update of Su-27S SK SMK UB..... base on SU-30MKK!

are you sure about the su30mkk being derived from the su33 etc,i believe that the su30mkk was derived from the su27u which china had acquired from russia,anyway i will find out from some chinese websites and get back to you.

as far as the su30mki is concerned,the mki is not the final and ultimate version,several upgraded versions of su30mki are planned (in the form of block upgrades just like the chinese airforce mkk,these will be designated as the mki-1,mki-2 etc),included in the planned upgrade are the brahmos cruise missile and an aesa radar (elta elm-2052 or the russian irbis).

[aaaditya]

Actually Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI was built from different factory and commpany. Su-30MKI was IAPO private production without supported by offcial Sukhoi !(because both of them is the competitor for russia SU family export). IAPO was the part of Sukhoi offcial factory in Soviet Union before divided into two parts. Why china got Su-30MKK instead of Su-30MKI?
Su-30MKK and Su-30MKi is complete different series!
1.Su-30MKK base on SU-33UB/SU-35UB/Su-37body! Su-30MKI base on Su-27UB!
2.For finish different mission and target .
3.Su-30MKK can got much support and update from Sukhoi offcial. that's why you can see Su-30MKK2.....3 soon
4.Su-30 have more update potential than Su-30MKI
5.Russia air force will update of Su-27S SK SMK UB..... base on SU-30MKK!

well buddy here is the proof that the su30mkk is based on the su27sk .

check out this link:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/su30.asp

by the way is the mkk a twin seater like the mki?

[blackboy11]

well.....as far as i know..
mkk is developed by china mainly for ground strike..
mki is developed for air battle..
so....to decide which is better primarily based on the types of missions..

[suryaaa]

well.....as far as i know..
mkk is developed by china mainly for ground strike..
mki is developed for air battle..
so....to decide which is better primarily based on the types of missions..

developed by china give me a break,they may have integrated some avionics into mkk like what india has done .so can you explain your stand.

about mki as omly a strike ,lol its a multi purpose fighter and it can perform all kind of operation .latest versions are missile carrier sukhoi.(mki carrying brahmos).

[LancerMc]

aaaditya is correct that the SU-30KK was developed from the Su-27 not the Su-30. The Chinese did not develop anything in their particular model. Sukhoi made a technology demonstrator. The Chinese just produced the fighter, and though I am sure it has added Chinese avionics as well.

The Su-30KK was developed more as a long range attack and anti shipping aircraft not primarily as a fighter. The initial Su-30KI's that entered the IAF, lacked more sophisticated ground attacks capabilities, the last planed Phase 4 variants will have a very advance ground attack abilities. The Su-30MKI has a much greater capability as dog fighter then the Su-30KK, with its thrust vectoring nozzles and other avionics, it would most likely be able to beat a Su-30KK fairly easily.

[LancerMc]

aaaditya is correct that the SU-30KK was developed from the Su-27 not the Su-30. The Chinese did not develop anything in their particular model. Sukhoi made a technology demonstrator. The Chinese just produced the fighter, and though I am sure it has added Chinese avionics as well.

The Su-30KK was developed more as a long range attack and anti shipping aircraft not primarily as a fighter. The initial Su-30KI's that entered the IAF, lacked more sophisticated ground attacks capabilities, the last planed Phase 4 variants will have a very advance ground attack abilities. The Su-30MKI has a much greater capability as dog fighter then the Su-30KK, with its thrust vectoring nozzles and other avionics, it would most likely be able to beat a Su-30KK fairly easily.

[aaaditya]

i dont know what are the roles for which the su30mkk is intended ,but the su30mki is capable of functioning the following roles equally effectively.

air superiority fighter(air defence,interception and escort)

deep penetration strike attack(conventional and nuclear)

maritime strike

electronic warfare

photo reconnaisance

fighter air controller (mini airborne warning and control system roles).

also with the more advanced version in development iam sure it will be more versatile.

this is also the prime reason why it has a two man crew ,instead of only one in most fighters.for such long range ,high endurance missions a two man crew will be able to perform more efficiently than a one man crew.

[EnigmaNZ]

http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/fighter.htm#Su-27%20-%2037

There is a good history of all the various types of Sukhois here, from the Su-27 to the Su-37. Very informative. Main versions of the Flanker appear to be;

Su-27"A/B/C" basic single-seat air superiority fighter.
Su-27"K" single-seat export air superiority fighter, also Naval version's designation.
Su-27"S" improved version.
Su-27"SK" improved export version
Su-27"SMK" (S=improved, M=multirole, K=export)
Su-27"UB" tandem seat trainer.
Su-27"PU" tandem seat fighter with full mission capable back seat.
Su-27"IB" side-by-side seat fighter bomber.
Su-30"K" upgraded tandem seat full-system Su-27 interceptor.
Su-30"MK" tandem seat export multi-role fighter.
Su-30"MKI" Indian version of the Su-30"MK"
Su-32"FN" side-by-side seat primary air-to-ground/sea mission specialization.
Su-33 Naval Strike Fighter (known in Russia as the Naval Su-27"K")
Su-34 side-by-side seat prototype of the Su-32"FN".
Su-35 single seat multi purpose fighter with advanced weapon system, stronger airframe and canard.
Su-37 Thrust Vectored Control (TVC) fighter.

All quite confusing really.

[Scorpion82]

Just my 2 cents:
The Su-30MKI has canards and the AL-31FP TVC engine which heavily increases the maneuverability and low speed/AoA performance of the type.
The Su-30MKI includes a comprehensive and sophisticated avionics package which includes a more advanced RWR (Tarang 2), integrated israeli ECM and the PESA multimode fire control radar N011M, compared to the much less capable N-001 variant of the Su-30MKK. The MKI also includes more advanced navigation systems with many of them coming from France or being produced under licence in India. The possible weaponary is similar for both types, but the two air forces will also use some different kinds of weapons.
Don't forget about the Su-30MK2 in PLAN service, it has a more advanced radar system Zhuk-MS or such, which could be more close to the BARS-M.

Someone mentioned Su-30MKA above for which country is that version and are there any details (contracts signed etc.)?

[tphuang]

Just my 2 cents:
The Su-30MKI has canards and the AL-31FP TVC engine which heavily increases the maneuverability and low speed/AoA performance of the type.
The Su-30MKI includes a comprehensive and sophisticated avionics package which includes a more advanced RWR (Tarang 2), integrated israeli ECM and the PESA multimode fire control radar N011M, compared to the much less capable N-001 variant of the Su-30MKK. The MKI also includes more advanced navigation systems with many of them coming from France or being produced under licence in India. The possible weaponary is similar for both types, but the two air forces will also use some different kinds of weapons.
Don't forget about the Su-30MK2 in PLAN service, it has a more advanced radar system Zhuk-MS or such, which could be more close to the BARS-M.

Someone mentioned Su-30MKA above for which country is that version and are there any details (contracts signed etc.)?
mk2 uses n-001vep version 2 not zhuk-mse (which had yet to finish testing when China purchased mk2) Also, it appears that China is interested in upgrading the engine of the existing flankers to AL-31FM1. It was in the JDW article that talked about J-10 getting AL-31FN-M1 and several Russian articles recently.

I believe the Algerians said they want the same version of su-30 that IAF is getting.

[suryaaa]

guys dont forget that mki will have its variants in the comoing future.

it was informed that their will be block upgradaion .

possilble variant we can see in the near future is mki carrying pj-10

[not our pj-10].:type ;)

[dabrownguy]

What I want to know is if the IN will be getting TVC engines for those MiG-29Ks?

[ajaybhutani]

What I want to know is if the IN will be getting TVC engines for those MiG-29Ks?
during the time of ordering these planes, the work on integrating mig29's with TVC hadnt started leave aside a nozzle for a carrier capable bird(as theres more wear and tear in sea). IN didnt find it a use to pay for the TVC ..

[Scorpion82]

mk2 uses n-001vep version 2 not zhuk-mse (which had yet to finish testing when China purchased mk2) Also, it appears that China is interested in upgrading the engine of the existing flankers to AL-31FM1. It was in the JDW article that talked about J-10 getting AL-31FN-M1 and several Russian articles recently.

I believe the Algerians said they want the same version of su-30 that IAF is getting.

Thanks for the info about the MK2, I thought it has the Zhuk-MS, maybe it was only a possible option.

About Algeria, I know their air force prefered the Su-30MK, but they ordered the MiG-29SMT and are now also looking to a western fighter to complement the Fulcrum. It looks like the Rafale seems to be the prefered option.

[funtz]

To show the level of dissing that goes on, even in same sector (aviation) of the same country here is
The president of the Irkutsk Aviation Industrial Association MR. Alexey Fedorov
Taking about KNAAPO
www.knaapo.ru/eng/
As if it was a small tractor manufacturing firm in the "far east".
it is also relevant(well not really) to the debate.

The plane for China is a different aircraft from a different company from the Far East in Russia.

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/interview-fedorov1.html

I think, there is no such opinion which is "neutral", in any way, especially in aviation sector, especially amongst defense analysts.

I think now that the cat has been out of the bag for such long a time, it is clear to see with the advantage of time, "IT'S 2007".

1. India wished for a plane with technological difference in avionics area to give it whatever edge possible in the region.
This is why they made such a complicated deal which involved many sources, eventually India ended up paying more than they would have had to pay if it was an exclusive Russian bird, and complicated the assembly "hal had to order 40 more Russian assembled birds in addition to what they were making to meet the 2015 date line".

In addition to this Russia realized the importance of the deal in India's air force structure (like Goshkov air defense ship, as the indian carrier was supposed to retire by 2009-2010), now any step in price increment will have to be tolerated by India.

Irkut and HAL engineers are currently working on a structural modification to enable the Indian SU30 for BrahMos (well its the only heavy class air force jet capable of carrying around a BrahMos or 2), which goes to show that india will use the SU30 as "the frontline" of its air force.

In 2010 India will decide what further upgrades are possible (avionics) to keep up on the route chosen through different avionics from different sources.

2. China wished for an all Russian set up, with a license to build around 500-550 planes with the option of adding whatever they make in china, for the sole reason of a easy assembly and higher quantity, due to the all Russian deal they were more than able to meet the aim of time and cost (which is of prime importance to China), other Russian radars were heavier than what was originally though by KNAAPO, and a mid life upgrade would have required a structural modification, hence China refused, which goes to show it will be the workhorse of PLA-AF(every thing is the army even tha navy is PLA-N), they will use a J-10 as the frontline.

Well it’s easier now that the plans are out.
Will provide the link, if you disagree with any information.

[qwerty223]

the malaysian mkm configuration is based on the mki ,but the israeli equipment on the mki have been replaced by the indian and french equipment on the mkm
Sorry for the late interrupt.
MKM has a avionics combination of Russia, French, South Africa instead

[Firehorse]

Israeli Equipped Su-30s Replace Mig-25s (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20071004.aspx)
October 4, 2007: The Indian Air Force is replacing its Mig-25 reconnaissance aircraft with Su-30s carrying Israeli sensors. This will enable the Su-30MKI aircraft to take pictures up to 300 kilometers inside another country's (Pakistan and China) territory. This is much better than what the Russian equipped MiG-25 could do.

Can the Chinese modify their Su-30s for a similar role? Most interestingly, the PLANAF could use them to detect CSGs!

[Chrom]

Can the Chinese modify their Su-30s for a similar role? Most interestingly, the PLANAF could use them to detect CSGs!

Sure they can. Still, as recon platform (putting sensors aside) Mig-25 is surery much superior to Su-30. It have much higher speed, much higher celling, more place for sensors.

[funtz]

It is not about the platform it is about the equipment,
India can use any plane that can carry the weight of the sensor and provide the required power for recon, of course the higher they fly the better it is.

PLA-AF can also use such pods for similar role on any aircraft that does the job

India chose the Elta EL/M-2060P SAR/GMTI Reconnaissance System

With the following data link (which makes it much sought after)
ELTA's EL/K-1850 microwave data link family
C, X or Ku-Band
Full-duplex
More than 250 NM range, depending on radio Line-Of-Sight (LOS)

It can help in real time recon.

The MiG 25 India was used at a time when recon meant using bulky optical instruments, once the film was made one had to go all the way to the base submit the film, which was processed and analyzed, and sent to the respective commands/intelligence agencies, it was a very hush-hush process, at a time when no radar-SAM or interceptor in the neighborhood could do much against the MiG-25, The soviets provided India with top of the line stuff for those days, optimised for higher altitude and speed and recon instead of interception.

well those days are gone now its time to move on many other space based sensors provide the same role(again they are all still hushed up), it did for India in relative terms what the SR plane did for US, such beautiful bird, she deserved a graceful retirement.

Anyways if things go this way a SAR on a high endurance UAV which can fly real high will be much better

[nero]

.

The MKK holds many advantages over the indian MKI. these include,


the Tikhonravov NIIP "N001VE" radar, which is an updated export version of the original N001 radar with air-to-air, air-to-ground, and navigation modes.
An OLS-30 optical sensor system and Sura-K helmet-mounted sight.
An L-150 Pastel ELINT set to provide radar warning and emitter targeting capabilities. Incidentally, one of the few distinctive recognition features of the Su-30MKK is that the tailfins have been increased in height and have flat, not angled, tips, with antennas for the Pastel set mounted in near the top rear of the tailfins.
An A-737 satellite navigation receiver, compatible with both the US GPS and Russian GLONASS satellite navigation systems, linked into a comprehensive navigation system. The Su-30MKK also carries modern radios, a datalink, and a video recorder system.
A glass cockpit, with a wide-angle HUD and two 15.8 x 21.1 centimeter (6.2 x 8.3 inch) flat panel displays for the pilot, and two similar flat-panel displays for the back-seater.

:china :china

.

[funtz]

Man i dont even want to respond to that.

Try to read a gazillion articles available on why india opted for international/national avionics, radar computer, EW equipment, recon pods etc. etc.

Really the radar, hmm, again zip, nothing (please read up on available radar specs).

RWR oh yes poor MKI has no RWR, ta such poor we indians are.

navigation, oh we indian like to carry torch, and chicken tikka, yes please.

Glass cockpit, oh no no our aircraft be having big big dials, it be so easy plus there be no electricity in delhi, how bill glass cockpit be borking.

HUD, Bhat is that, we throw stones from aircrafts.

enough, this thread will be closed again if this is what is going to happen

[tphuang]

Can the Chinese modify their Su-30s for a similar role? Most interestingly, the PLANAF could use them to detect CSGs!

They use J-8Fs as the reconnaissance aircraft. It's much cheaper than MKK, actually has better T/W ratio and can fly faster. The only thing it looses out on is range. But then again with full afterburner, the fuel consumption rate of turbofan and turbojet don't make as much of a difference.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

.

The MKK holds many advantages over the indian MKI. these include,


the Tikhonravov NIIP "N001VE" radar, which is an updated export version of the original N001 radar with air-to-air, air-to-ground, and navigation modes.
An OLS-30 optical sensor system and Sura-K helmet-mounted sight.
An L-150 Pastel ELINT set to provide radar warning and emitter targeting capabilities. Incidentally, one of the few distinctive recognition features of the Su-30MKK is that the tailfins have been increased in height and have flat, not angled, tips, with antennas for the Pastel set mounted in near the top rear of the tailfins.
An A-737 satellite navigation receiver, compatible with both the US GPS and Russian GLONASS satellite navigation systems, linked into a comprehensive navigation system. The Su-30MKK also carries modern radios, a datalink, and a video recorder system.
A glass cockpit, with a wide-angle HUD and two 15.8 x 21.1 centimeter (6.2 x 8.3 inch) flat panel displays for the pilot, and two similar flat-panel displays for the back-seater.

:china :china

.


mate what the #@$* are you taking about???? Have you actually looked at the MKI? Most of the stuff you just used as "evidence" of the MKK's superiority are actually markably inferior to the MKI, especially the radar.

[sidewinder2006]

.

The MKK holds many advantages over the indian MKI. these include,


the Tikhonravov NIIP "N001VE" radar, which is an updated export version of the original N001 radar with air-to-air, air-to-ground, and navigation modes.
An OLS-30 optical sensor system and Sura-K helmet-mounted sight.
An L-150 Pastel ELINT set to provide radar warning and emitter targeting capabilities. Incidentally, one of the few distinctive recognition features of the Su-30MKK is that the tailfins have been increased in height and have flat, not angled, tips, with antennas for the Pastel set mounted in near the top rear of the tailfins.
An A-737 satellite navigation receiver, compatible with both the US GPS and Russian GLONASS satellite navigation systems, linked into a comprehensive navigation system. The Su-30MKK also carries modern radios, a datalink, and a video recorder system.
A glass cockpit, with a wide-angle HUD and two 15.8 x 21.1 centimeter (6.2 x 8.3 inch) flat panel displays for the pilot, and two similar flat-panel displays for the back-seater.

:china :china

.


Hahahahahha...this guy is just on a mission to throw stones at anything Indian....really funny !:p: :p: :p: :p:

Put him on a test...for say..If I say I love Chicken Tikka..This guy will surely jump in and say........no...here is the link to chinkipidia :D ...look it says Noodles are more nutritious than Indian Tikka.....What a joker :vamp :vamp

[Chrom]

It is not about the platform it is about the equipment,
India can use any plane that can carry the weight of the sensor and provide the required power for recon, of course the higher they fly the better it is.


Sure, new sensors on SU-30MKI are better than 20-years old sensors on MIG-25. Who would guessed that?

But why India even choose SU-30MKI instead of Mig-25 as PLATFORM for these new Israel sensors??

[funtz]

Sure, new sensors on SU-30MKI are better than 20-years old sensors on MIG-25. Who would guessed that?

But why India even choose SU-30MKI instead of Mig-25 as PLATFORM for these new Israel sensors??


Well at the time of the MiG 25, it was top of the line especially as a recon plane, I was only stressing the advantage the newer technology has provided us with, for example we do not have to fly directly above a place 100km inside Pakistan in places like Punjab, Rajisthan Border which are large planes, earlier this was not the case.

MiG 25 was intended for flying at altitudes which rendered SAM and radar cover in India's immediate neighborhood ineffective.

Right now, exceptionally high altitude doesn't guarantee a safer option, and with the evolution of technology, there is a possibility of taking collecting similar data through space based equipment

There are efforts going on to have a dedicated space intelligence, for that purpose more sophisticated equipment is also being procured and developed through what i can guess active Russian and Israeli support.

However as this is the most important element of military intelligence no one will ever hear about this, one will only be able to follow the figures in current and future launches of rockets which put something up there, and have a rough guess through that.

MiG 25? Now it is the MiG 31, I guess, the updated version.

As for the base of the sensors themselves, having a dedicated platform that is specifically in use for a SAR will take more money, something which is not in free supply.

Higher altitude will help in increasing the range of the sensor, however unlike the reports in papers point out this is only for real time coverage of locations near the border, that is the armor positions, artillery's positions etc. etc. which are in the line of sight of the SAR emissions not for looking 500-600 km inside China or Pakistan.

The SU 30 can do that job very well, it can carry high payloads, go up to a decent, height, provide the required power.

[funtz]

chinkipidia
As of the last Indian Idol contest and the ensuing riots, that term is almost officially racist, currently the process of submitting a PIL is underway which might ban the use of this term, judging by the response it created, chances are it will be termed a racist slur.

In the Gurkha brigade many brave soldiers have given there blood for their Country (India), in situations you and i can not even imagine, the families of many Gurkha's have lived with out a parent, brother, husband or son just because something had to be done to secure the integrity of the nation, I hope you realize that.

[sidewinder2006]

As of the last Indian Idol contest and the ensuing riots, that term is almost officially racist, currently the process of submitting a PIL is underway which might ban the use of this term, judging by the response it created, chances are it will be termed a racist slur.

In the Gurkha brigade many brave soldiers have given there blood for their Country (India), in situations you and i can not even imagine, the families of many Gurkha's have lived with out a parent, brother, husband or son just because something had to be done to secure the integrity of the nation, I hope you realize that.


oooooppppsssss...didnt realize that this might point something towords racism !!! I didnt really mean that ! I have great respect for all our gurkha brothers!
Sorry abt that ya !

But I used that term with a bit of pun actually ! What I meant was chinkipedia=Wikipedia ,the chineese way (Well Mr. Nero advertises himself to be a Chineese ) !

I understand and admit there are some very good chineese contributors in this forum...Sorry if I've hurt them !

[SABRE]

I am starting to smell trouble. I am warning ... certain members would be banned & thread would be locked for a long long time.

No more Racism & childish posts with no credible backings!!!

We are hoping for full cooporation from all the members interested in this thread.

[su-30mki]

And I Thought V/s Threads Were Not Allowed Here.

[SABRE]

THREAD CLOSED.

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