JSF v EuroFighter in AA combat

[Big-E]

Can the Joint Strike Fighter take the Euro-Fighter in Air-to-Air combat?

[old faithful]

hopefully we will never know! both a/c will be supported by awacs, so think the stealth of JSF "may" give it the edge to give it first look,first volley! with the decoys and ECM that the typhoon operates, more than one shot will be required for a kill regardless of the platform engageing it.

[Waylander]

In normal ways it's really the question who is detected first by the enemy AWAACS or ground radar station and is able to fire its AMRAAMs.
If it comes to a dogfight the F-35 should try to escape like it is the same with every other primary AA fighter which it is facing. The F-35 should try to get bvr kills despite going into dogfight with an EF, F-22, Su-30, MiG-29, etc.

[Marc Aurel]

Concerning flight parameters, the EF will ouclass the JSF, as its climb rate, turn rate and especially its supersonic abilities are superb. When equipped with directed thrust engines in the future, EF will probably be the best manned dogfighting machine on earth (and probably the last manned one built). The only advantage JSF has is stealth, which can be pretty decisive, as long as there is no technology to beat it. But consider this is just a matter of time. Also i read that JSF stealth technology is not the best, because it just misses bandwith ranges of more modern radar systems, like the EF has, for sure. Thats because JSF cost has to be limited with the lots of customers in view, not like for F-22 Raptor, which is just cutting edge for the highest price tag possible.

I would say, outcome of AA-Combat between JSF and Ef ist just a matter of tactics and circumstances, both have their distinctive advantages. But nobody can tell for sure, i guess.

[meh]

hopefully we will never know! both a/c will be supported by awacs, so think the stealth of JSF "may" give it the edge to give it first look,first volley! with the decoys and ECM that the typhoon operates, more than one shot will be required for a kill regardless of the platform engageing it.

i think the JSF might be better because it is able to hover and can stop in midair causing the typhoon to fly ahead and that would give the JSF an advantage and it would perhapes be able to shot the typhoon down.

[Marc Aurel]

Remember this is only possible with the Marine/UK Version and I dont think it would be a good idea as it takes a while to stop and hover, the plane would also be an easy target and difficult to maneuver, take a while to recover speed if attacked and at least one cannot say if it is possible with a full combat and fuel load, same as the Harrier Jets, which jettison fuel and heavy weapons before making an vertical touchdown on the carrier.

[JWCook]

Ultimately its a sensor/range war, Does the Typhoon have CAPTOR or CAESAR, is it supported by AWACS, Does the JSF have the offensive range that METEOR will give??.

It boils down to can the Typhoon detect and engage the JSF before the JSF can launch an AMRAAM at the Typhoon and escape.

This depends on a whole heap of things, the RCS/Thermal footprint/Aspect of the JSF, the on/off board sensors used by both, ROE, its not a simple equation.

What is the JSF's stealth tuned for???? ground based radars or airborne??, there are always design compromises, whats the JSF's primary mission (given the F-22 is AtoA).

Finally what version of JSF is it?
Bill Sweetman (Janes) said:-
While there is no Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) export 'variant' as such, it is apparent from a review of open sources that it would be practical to deliver JSFs in different configurations with different signatures to match national operational requirements documents, protecting US and UK aircraft from any compromise of their own low-observable (LO) systems.

Hmm no 'export variant' just 'export variants' :confused::dodgy

To sum up.. depending on the situation and circumstances both are likely to win, But the art is in fighting when circumstances favour your aircraft.


Cheers

[gf0012-aust]

Finally what version of JSF is it?
Bill Sweetman (Janes) said:-


Hmm no 'export variant' just 'export variants' :confused::dodgy


I just recieved an invite to the next Stealth Conf in London - Bill Sweetman is a guest speaker - so it would be interesting to see what he says. Unfort I can't attend as I'll be tied up doing stuff in Germany.

maybe you should get along ;) if you're interested I'll send you the details.

[JWCook]

I'd love too.... But - I'm afraid the wife might object to me selling the children for the airfare.. :(.

Would they consider moving it to Oz...:)
After all the rumour was we were providing a rather large playground for the UK to test stealth 'stuff'...

Cheers

[old faithful]

one point that people are forgetting in this JSF stealth capabilities,even if the opposing platform,s radar can see through the JSF,s stealth, can the radar of its bvr missile? i.e can meteor,R77 see the JSF?

[gf0012-aust]

After all the rumour was we were providing a rather large playground for the UK to test stealth 'stuff'...

Well, considering that BAEa are responsible for managing Woomera and for making it a commercial success - I'd guess that the odds are higher.

The amount of Hypersonic missile testing alone in the last few years has quadrupled. The Ewarfare people are always dribbling around as well. ;)

[Aussie Digger]

By the time the JSF is in-service, far more effective and longer ranging AMRAAM variants are due to be in-service as well. The AIM-120D for instance has a planned IOC of 2008 and features amongst other things a 50% increase in range over the latest AIM-120C-7 variants, giving AMRAAM a range of around 150k's, which should make the JSF competitive against most other aircraft, particularly when it's stealth and LPI AESA radar are taken into account.

In relation to the Typhoon's planned TVC and AESA radar upgrades, well Tranche 3 haven't been funded yet and possibly won't. JSF won't have TVC engines, but will be fitted with a developed version of the F-22A's radar, fro the getgo. It "should" have a significant advantage in detection ranges over most other radars because of this...

[JWCook]

It was my understanding the F-22 was to have a 'developed radar' from the JSF!!!.

The front end MMIC's at least.!.
As cost of the first generation MMIC's were very high and cooling is a big factor.



Cheers

[Aussie Digger]

From a quick trip "round" the net, the F-35A's, APG-81 radar is a development of the APG-77 from the F-22. Both are built by Northrop Grumman and are AESA, "LPI" style radars with "agile beam steering" capability.

Here's a quick quote from airforce-technology.com


RADAR

Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is developing the advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) AN/APG-81 multi-function radar. The AN/APG-81AESA will combine an integrated radio frequency subsystem with a multifunction array. The radar system will also incorporate the agile beam steering capabilities developed for the APG-77. Northrop Grumman delivered the first radar to Lockheed Martin in March 2005 for flight testing."

Some "experts", Messir's Kopp and Goon included, state that this radar will only be about 2/3rd's as capable, due to a supposed reduced "radar module count" using "same generation" TR modules. Nevermind that the APG-81 has benefited from roughly 10 years of development work on the APG-77 by the SAME manufacturer...

Nevermind that the upgrades planned for F-22A have since been canned for cost reasons, etc, etc...

[Big-E]

What would be the JSF's best altitude to engage a EF? To score a BVR kill will JSF be able to pick up EF before they are detected?

[Magoo]

From a quick trip "round" the net, the F-35A's, APG-81 radar is a development of the APG-77 from the F-22. Both are built by Northrop Grumman and are AESA, "LPI" style radars with "agile beam steering" capability.

Some "experts", Messir's Kopp and Goon included, state that this radar will only be about 2/3rd's as capable, due to a supposed reduced "radar module count" using "same generation" TR modules. Nevermind that the APG-81 has benefited from roughly 10 years of development work on the APG-77 by the SAME manufacturer...

Nevermind that the upgrades planned for F-22A have since been canned for cost reasons, etc, etc...

While the APG-81 is a development of the APG-77, the -81 has a smaller aperture than the -77, and therefore potentially less 'grunt'. However, alot of the -81's backend improvements in software and hardware which allow for more robust ECCM, better communications, reliability and target discrimination will flow back to the F-22 in spiral developments...if indeed these go ahead! As long as F-22 production flows over into a new presidential administration, there's still a hope I guess!

Magoo

[Marc Aurel]

The whole question is kinda esoteric. It just cannot be answered right now and maybe never will. All the specifical tech speculations are just that, speculations.

[Big-E]

Its still fun to guess.:el

[contedicavour]

The Typhoon is primarily an air-to-air fighter, so its competitor would rather be the F-22 than the JSF, which is supposed to be primarily a ground-attack fighterbomber.
As rightly stated in this thread, if a JSF were to be attacked by pure air superiority fighters such as the Typhoon or recent versions of the SU27, its role would be to escape and try to finish the bombing raid...

I believe in dedicated-purpose planes, either fighters or fighter-bombers. Multi-purpose planes will never be comparable. An F-16, arguably the best multi-purpose of all, will never match a F-15C or a SU-27 in air-to-air beyond visual range combat, nor a Tornado IDS (after MLU) in very-low-altitude bombing night attacks, for example.

cheers

[adsH]

It's probably worth saying it here, If USAF JSF and RAF Typhoons were put into a battle and pitted against each other. I would guess both units would have a similar networking capabilities and similar AEW supports, so i would say the Stealth factor may not be an advantage when the Typhoon moves in closer for the kill :shudder

[Big-E]

It's probably worth saying it here, If USAF JSF and RAF Typhoons were put into a battle and pitted against each other. I would guess both units would have a similar networking capabilities and similar AEW supports, so i would say the Stealth factor may not be an advantage when the Typhoon moves in closer for the kill :shudder

Can an E-3 Sentry pick up a JSF? I think the JSF would be able to sneak up on a EF.

[Magoo]

Can an E-3 Sentry pick up a JSF? I think the JSF would be able to sneak up on a EF.

So many different factors to consider...

I think an E-3 would be able to pick up even an F-22 or an F-117...it's the point at which it picks them up that is the consideration here.

All things being equal in a nose to nose merge situation, the JSF should see the Eurofighter first. If the Eurofighter gets CAPTOR and its IRST is working fine, I think the RCS advantage the JSF will enjoy will be the deciding factor.

If the JSF and Eurofighter were approaching an E-3 together, the E-3 will see the Eurofighter long before.

A JSF approaching the E-3 or a Eurofighter under the E-3's control will appear as a spurious or inconsistent contact at first. If he makes his approach cleverly (i.e. not a 600+ knots straight in approach) using course and altitude changes, he may continue to be treated as spurious until he can get an AIM-120 shot off, by which time it's too late. I doubt a Eurofighter would get within 200nm of any E-3 without being spotted and identified.

Magoo

[Big-E]

Thanks Magoo! Thats what I thought.:rolleyes:

[Waylander]

You think about how stealth really works. For example the EF is said to have a radar profile of a little bit less than 1m² (Front). The F-22 (I doubt that the F-35 has the same profile) shall be near to have a profile 4 times less than the EF (round about 0.25m²). The F-117 for example has a front profile of less than 0,05m².
But the detection range is not negotiated with the same rate.
A little formula (Fore sure it's to easy but it is enough to show what I mean):
RCS(reduced)/RCS(not reduced)^0,25
->(0,25m²/1m²)^0,25=ca. 0,71
So when an EF is detected within 100km the F-22 will be detected within 71km. Lets say that the stealth works better than expected and take into account that my formula is very vague, so the F-22 is detected at 50km. Even than the F-35 (Which is not going to be as stealthy as the Raptor) is not as stealt capable as somebody could think.
It is not nearly an F-117 with air to air capabilities. For sure the stealth gives it some advantages but nevertheless it is not a holy graile. :)


PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments:
F-22 Raptor after Canopy (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2002/02/24/Navigation/190/204883/Pictures+Pilot+trapped+for+5h+in+cockpit+of+USAF's %20+new+%24135m+F-22A+Raptor+after+canopy.html):D

Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force. ;) :p:

[Big-E]

Thats still close enough for the JSF to get off an AMRAAM and make the EF turn before she can launch.

[Big-E]

PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments:

Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force. ;) :p:

Why bring up the US in this thread? JSF is a multi-national effort with many EU partners along with the EF. If you want to be on the recieving end of a raptor, be my guest.

[Waylander]

Do you have reliable sources on were you can see at which range an AWAACs detectes an EF or an F-35.
How can you be sure that this is within AMRAAM range?

[Waylander]

Did you read what I had written before?
"Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force."
Does this sounds like US bashing?

I know that the F-35 is a multinational project (With some struggling about who gets to know what ;) ).

[Big-E]

Do you have reliable sources on were you can see at which range an AWAACs detectes an EF or an F-35.
How can you be sure that this is within AMRAAM range?

I don't need to worry about range with an AIM-120D.:) If JSF can get within range of a EF with the same version of AMRAAM she will fire first. By the the time EF picks up the AMRAAM she already has to start evasive maneuvers. Even if she gets a shot off the JSF bays will be closed and the AMRAAMs mid course guidance will be useless as JSF pulls out of the E-3s detection range.

[Waylander]

I am not that sure that an F-35 is able to get a shot at, lets say, max. 150km. The EF than has not only to be detected by the AWAACS at more than 150km (That may not be the problem) but the F-35 own radar has to be able to track the EF (Which is not going to fly like a passengers jet) at this range.

And for example there are also no real facts about how good the stealth capabilities of the F-35 work against METEOR or how easy it is to hit an EF with its ECM and maneuvering capabilities at 150km with an AIM-120D.

Even in Kosovo, etc. there haven't been that much BVR kills against jets much less capable than the EF. BVR is not that easy as it sounds especially not at such extreme ranges.

I have no doubt that the stealth capabilites of the F-35 gives it some advantage in BVR combat but your posts sound a little bit too much like "The F-35 is going to kick ass long before the EF is coming close".

[Big-E]

I am not that sure that an F-35 is able to get a shot at, lets say, max. 150km. The EF than has not only to be detected by the AWAACS at more than 150km (That may not be the problem) but the F-35 own radar has to be able to track the EF (Which is not going to fly like a passengers jet) at this range.
And for example there are also no real facts about how good the stealth capabilities of the F-35 work against METEOR or how easy it is to hit an EF with its ECM and maneuvering capabilities at 150km with an AIM-120D.
Even in Kosovo, etc. there haven't been that much BVR kills against jets much less capable than the EF. BVR is not that easy as it sounds especially not at such extreme ranges.
I have no doubt that the stealth capabilites of the F-35 gives it some advantage in BVR combat but your posts sound a little bit too much like "The F-35 is going to kick ass long before the EF is coming close".

The F-35s data-link to the E-3 will provide all the data for MC guidance. You don't have to depend on the F-35s radar. If EF is able to get the first shot off and can track the JSF then they will get the kill. When you are fighting a long range BVR battle it all comes down to how well you can track the target. JSF has a clear advantage in this scenerio. EF takes JSF hands down in a dog fight.

[Magoo]

You think about how stealth really works. For example the EF is said to have a radar profile of a little bit less than 1m² (Front). The F-22 (I doubt that the F-35 has the same profile) shall be near to have a profile 4 times less than the EF (round about 0.25m²). The F-117 for example has a front profile of less than 0,05m².
But the detection range is not negotiated with the same rate.
A little formula (Fore sure it's to easy but it is enough to show what I mean):
RCS(reduced)/RCS(not reduced)^0,25
->(0,25m²/1m²)^0,25=ca. 0,71
So when an EF is detected within 100km the F-22 will be detected within 71km. Lets say that the stealth works better than expected and take into account that my formula is very vague, so the F-22 is detected at 50km. Even than the F-35 (Which is not going to be as stealthy as the Raptor) is not as stealt capable as somebody could think.
It is not nearly an F-117 with air to air capabilities. For sure the stealth gives it some advantages but nevertheless it is not a holy graile. :)
This may or may not be true, but one factor you're not taking into account is, the F-22/F-35 will be carrying all of its weapons internally, whereas the Eurofighter will be carrying its on dirty, filthy, radar reflecting external pylons. It's all well and good to compare RCSs, but your methodology compares an armed aircraft to an unarmed aircraft.

PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments: F-22 Raptor after Canopy (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2002/02/24/Navigation/190/204883/Pictures+Pilot+trapped+for+5h+in+cockpit+of+USAF's %20+new+%24135m+F-22A+Raptor+after+canopy.html):D
Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force. ;) :p:
No offense taken, especially as I'm neither American or European, but it was a pretty dumb comment anyway. Of course, European aircraft work perfectly at all times, don't they??? :crazy . If it's a joke, I doubt anyone laughed nor even saw the funny side of it.

Magoo

[Aussie Digger]

This may or may not be true, but one factor you're not taking into account is, the F-22/F-35 will be carrying all of its weapons internally, whereas the Eurofighter will be carrying its on dirty, filthy, radar reflecting external pylons. It's all well and good to compare RCSs, but your methodology compares an armed aircraft to an unarmed aircraft.

Magoo

AND "draggy" external pylons, whilst F-35 will carry up to 6x AAM's internally, with greater fuel loads than the Eurofighter. If required to "turn and burn" at least the F-35A/C will be able to last longer in the fight, based on pure fuel burn.

The JSF will also have the same amount of thrust as the Eurofighter, despite only having 1 engine. Aircraft weight will depend to a large degree on the loads being carried. Meteor should be more capable than AIM-120D, at least in range performance, however only at a weight and drag penalty...

[Scorpius]

woah so its JSF>EF then?
sorry I am in ahurry now I will read the whole thing later.

[Big-E]

whereas the Eurofighter will be carrying its own dirty, filthy, radar reflecting external pylons.

LOL! You make it sound like EF is pimping out crack whores.:pimp

Death to pylons!:drunk

[Waylander]

I think it is not clear what I wanted to say.
The only thing I wanted to say is that one should take into account that the radar visibility is not going down by the same rate stealth capabilities is going up. My little formula was just an example for that.
That the F-35 is carrying it's weapons inside (sometimes, it is not a good bomb truck than and that's one of it's roles in the future) is a plus right and I already said that the stealth gives the JSF an advantage over the EF in BVR but I just don't think that this is as outreageous as some people here might think.
About the fuel. The F-35 is heavier during take off (Round about 4 tons if both jets have full internal tanks and the same payload) would be interesting if the advantage in fuel is still a factor after the take off because there you have to get more weight into the air.
One or two engines is a question of philosophy. The Luftwaffe tends to twon engine aircrafts and if the plane is going to operate often above water it is a law that it has to have twin engines. And having two engines is no doubt a + in survivability.
About the little joke. What is your problem? Don't tell me it's funny that they have to call the fire department to get a pilot out of a multi-million dollar jet. I would also laugh about that if this would be an EF, Rafale, Gripen, whatever...
And that sentence tells you everything:
"We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force"
That means that normally US Air Force/Navy is so often the ultimate king of the hill and I tend to cry if i compare the US capabilities to the european capabilities.

[adsH]

About the little joke. What is your problem? Don't tell me it's funny that they have to call the fire department to get a pilot out of a multi-million dollar jet. I would also laugh about that if this would be an EF, Rafale, Gripen, whatever...
And that sentence tells you everything:
"We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force"
That means that normally US Air Force/Navy is so often the ultimate king of the hill and I tend to cry if i compare the US capabilities to the european capabilities.

We understand the joke and i personally apologize for the attitude that some members are displaying here, hopefully people will try and stay civil.

I'd just like to add if Tactic would keep the JSF hidden from an E3 the same could be said about EF, we know RAF trains hard in these areas. so lets say it may depend on operators.

[Waylander]

That's also my opinion. :)
Two operator crews working against each other.
With one side trying to bring the EF into a position were he is able to fire METEOR with a good hitting chance or better let him sneak into Dogfight.
On the other side the operators try to track the EF long enough for the JSF to kill him BVR before he comes closer.

[contedicavour]

Dear all, why not consider what would happen if a European Typhoon armed with Meteor had to engage an export version of JSF sold by the US to a regime that turned hostile ? Say, like the F-14s sold to pre-revolutionary Iran...
Would a JSF without AWACS support be any match for a dedicated air superiority figher such as the Typhoon ? Honestly I think no match at all.

This way we start creating potentially real fiction instead of wondering how the RAF (or the Luftwaffe, or the Aeronautica Militare Italiana...) would perform vs the USN, which hopefully will never ever be the case !!! ;)

cheers

[Big-E]

Dear all, why not consider what would happen if a European Typhoon armed with Meteor had to engage an export version of JSF sold by the US to a regime that turned hostile ? Say, like the F-14s sold to pre-revolutionary Iran...

This way we start creating potentially real fiction instead of wondering how the RAF (or the Luftwaffe, or the Aeronautica Militare Italiana...) would perform vs the USN, which hopefully will never ever be the case !!! ;)

cheers

Because like Iran, they wouldn't be able to find the parts to keep them running.:p: This is not USN vs the world. Many more countries and branches will be fielding JSF.

[contedicavour]

Because like Iran, they wouldn't be able to find the parts to keep them running.:p: This is not USN vs the world. Many more countries and branches will be fielding JSF.

Hope you're right, but let's not forget the Iranian Air Force still operates 20 Tomcats with a few remaining AIM-54 Phoenix, 27 years after delivery... There are a lot of things petrodollars can buy :(

[Big-E]

Hope you're right, but let's not forget the Iranian Air Force still operates 20 Tomcats with a few remaining AIM-54 Phoenix, 27 years after delivery... There are a lot of things petrodollars can buy :(

I'll bet you 10 bucks that you won't see more than 2 fly. Thats all the parts they could smuggle, we've been busting the rings up pretty good. Iran never got to keep working AIM-54 Pheonix. It's reported that they might have there own version but I doubt it.

[Waylander]

I think that even an normally total superior fighter loses against its opponents if they have AWAACS or good ground radar support. It is such a plus if you are able to coordinate your fighters while they are in EMCON.

[chrisrobsoar]

I'll bet you 10 bucks that you won't see more than 2 fly. Thats all the parts they could smuggle, we've been busting the rings up pretty good. Iran never got AIM-54 Pheonix. It's reported that they might have there own version but I doubt it.

F-14 Tomcats for Iran

79 new-build aircraft were delivered before the Shah's downfall in the Iranian Revolution and his death from cancer not long afterward. The 80th Iranian Tomcat was retained stateside by the US Navy. 284 of the 714 Phoenix missiles on order were also delivered. These were simplified versions of the missile, lacking the electronic counter-countermeasures capabilities of their US Navy equivalents.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avtomcat.html


This book is worth reading Iranian F-14 Tomcats in Combat

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml


This site shows an Iranian F-14 in flight with Phoenix missiles.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_16.jpg


The Iranians have also developed the Hawk A to A Missile based on the Maverick A to G missile.

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iriaf_f-14a_3-6024_with_aim-54.jpg

Chris

[contedicavour]

F-14 Tomcats for Iran

79 new-build aircraft were delivered before the Shah's downfall in the Iranian Revolution and his death from cancer not long afterward. The 80th Iranian Tomcat was retained stateside by the US Navy. 284 of the 714 Phoenix missiles on order were also delivered. These were simplified versions of the missile, lacking the electronic counter-countermeasures capabilities of their US Navy equivalents.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avtomcat.html


This book is worth reading Iranian F-14 Tomcats in Combat

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml


This site shows an Iranian F-14 in flight with Phoenix missiles.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_16.jpg


The Iranians have also developed the Hawk A to A Missile based on the Maverick A to G missile.

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iriaf_f-14a_3-6024_with_aim-54.jpg

Chris

Wow thanks, this is interesting reading.
Although I am reassured to read that the "export" Phoenix have weak ECM capabilities, this proves the point that selling top jets to wrong countries carries huge consequences. There are enough MIG-29 and SU-27 around in hostile countries, let's hope the JSF doesn't end up in the wrong hands.
But if it does, then I want to be sure our Typhoons are up to the task of obliterating them from the sky real fast :D

cheers

[Big-E]

F-14 Tomcats for Iran

79 new-build aircraft were delivered before the Shah's downfall in the Iranian Revolution and his death from cancer not long afterward. The 80th Iranian Tomcat was retained stateside by the US Navy. 284 of the 714 Phoenix missiles on order were also delivered. These were simplified versions of the missile, lacking the electronic counter-countermeasures capabilities of their US Navy equivalents.



ummm, but you forget that "US technical personnel sabatoged the aircraft and weapons before they left the country following the coup, making it impossible to fire the missile." Thats why I said they don't have them from US because all the ones they gave were sabotaged. I should have said working AIM-54s LOL! I edited it accordingly.

[DarthAmerica]

Can the Joint Strike Fighter take the Euro-Fighter in Air-to-Air combat?


Yes almost in every case. Probably with greater than 10 to 1 exchange ratios. If its a 1 vs 1 DACT scenario the F-35 will almost without exception win. In 1 vs many the F-35 would still have dominant SA and win despite any numerical disadvantages because it could chose the conditions under which it would fight. As long as the F-35 doesnt squander its BVR advantages by closing to within WVR ranges where the Typhoon or just about any recent jet/WVR AAM combo could get a lucky shot.

An analogy to this question would be to have two Typhoons fighting each other and one doesnt have a working radar and the other does.

[oldsoak]

I'd wait until they go AtoA and see what the outcome is. Typhoon is far from a sitting duck.

[DarthAmerica]

I'd wait until they go AtoA and see what the outcome is. Typhoon is far from a sitting duck.


Against a fully RCS optimized true stealth fighter its just as much of a sitting duck as the Iraqi IAD during 1991 vs the F-117. When you compare the different levels of SA, the Typhoon by comparison is flying blind. And with CAPTOR as its primary BVR sensor, not only is it blind, but its painting a bullseye on itself anytime it tries to "see" due to the noisy unstealthy operating characteristics.

Now we can say that to be fair we should consider the Typhoon of the post 2010 timeframe when the F-35 is going to be in service. If we assume there are no significant delays with CAESAR, METEOR and AIM-120D. Which in the case of CAESAR and METEOR would be highly unlikely at this point but I digress. The Typhoons tremendous disadvantages are only partially offset. In fact the Typhoon will still be a bit less capable BVR platform than the F/A-18E is with an APG-79 all things considered but particularly the radar. The F-35 will still have at least a 4 to 5 times detection range advantage even when and if the Typhoon gets an AESA. Thats down from a 6 to 7 times detection range advantage. You also have to remember that not only does the F-35 signature reduction inhibit the capabilities of CAPTOR or CAESAR. But it also inhibits the active seeker on whatever BVR/WVR weapon the Typhoon tries to deploy because they are a lot less powerful and advanced than the fighters radar/IRST.

Bottom line is that the Typhoon would be playing into the F-35 strengths to engage it in a2a combat. If you had to fight a F-35 with a Typhoon it would be better to deploy SCALP, TAURUS or some other such stand off PGM to take out the F-35 and support infrastructure on the ground. But that may be beyond the scope of the original question.

[oldsoak]

The F35 is not F22 in terms of stealth - thats one of the reasons why the US was happy to export F35 and not the F22. Even then, the F35 the US gets will not be the F35 the ROW gets in sterms of stealth - there are things which will be US only. We know that because we've been told that. Which F35 are we baselining the Typhoon against ? The version the US is going to fly or the downgraded stuff ?
Another factor is that while stealth certainly helps keep one from being discovered, it does not help you find the enemy. You still have to locate him. That will involve switching on the radar eventually and that will alert him to your presence. If you both operate in radar silence, Typhoon may well have an edge over F35 with its IRST suite. Once he knows you're around, its going to be a case of can you get a firing solution before he does and will your AAM overcome his defensive ECM suite. Its not a foregone conclusion.

[Marc Aurel]

Agree to above. Thats the killer argument, i guess.

Maybe in some time, radar will be more or less substituted by infrared seekers?!

[Waylander]

Great, the F-35 is going to kill everything in an easy way.
Why does the USAF is buying the F-22 if the F-35 is the jet killer of the future? :rolleyes:
For example the F-117 is round about five times more stealthy than the F-22.
And the F-35 is not going to be as stealthy as the F-22. Think about that.
Not to mention that the serbians managed to kill a F-117 by using some ground radars and an old MiG.
As said before it is more a competition between two AWAACs crews than a jet vs jet game.
And if there should really be a fight without AWAACs support how do you think the F-35 is going to find the EF and vice versa?
If they use radar both are going to be blinking in the sky and if both use their eyes and IR-sensors the EF going to play a hard game with its IRIS-T.

[Marc Aurel]

The UK is actually thinking about leaving the F35 program because the US does not want to share the technology, and its capabilitys don´t offer any superiority over given and prospected designs (mainly the EF i guess)

[DarthAmerica]

The F35 is not F22 in terms of stealth - thats one of the reasons why the US was happy to export F35 and not the F22. Even then, the F35 the US gets will not be the F35 the ROW gets in sterms of stealth - there are things which will be US only. We know that because we've been told that. Which F35 are we baselining the Typhoon against ? The version the US is going to fly or the downgraded stuff ?
Another factor is that while stealth certainly helps keep one from being discovered, it does not help you find the enemy. You still have to locate him. That will involve switching on the radar eventually and that will alert him to your presence. If you both operate in radar silence, Typhoon may well have an edge over F35 with its IRST suite. Once he knows you're around, its going to be a case of can you get a firing solution before he does and will your AAM overcome his defensive ECM suite. Its not a foregone conclusion.




This is an invalid arguement for several reasons. Primarily due to a misinterpretation of stealth principles. The difference between the F-22 and F-35 in terms of detection range for the CAPTOR is negligible in an operational sense. Second, the methods by which the F-35 is achieving its reduced RCS are more robust and more evolved than the way the F-22 does it. Also the F-35 is stealthy in the IR spectrum as well and itself has a passive detection suite that is superior to the IRST of the Typhoon. The AGP-81 is an LPI AESA set that could stealthily detect the Typhoon in active and passive modes. So the F-35 will be able to be stealthy while actively seeking out a non stealthy target. Their is no comparison. Like I said, look at the way this panned out for Iraqi IAD vs the F-117/TLAM.

And yes, stealth does help you find the enemy.

[DarthAmerica]

Great, the F-35 is going to kill everything in an easy way.
Why does the USAF is buying the F-22 if the F-35 is the jet killer of the future? :rolleyes:
For example the F-117 is round about five times more stealthy than the F-22.
And the F-35 is not going to be as stealthy as the F-22. Think about that.
Not to mention that the serbians managed to kill a F-117 by using some ground radars and an old MiG.
As said before it is more a competition between two AWAACs crews than a jet vs jet game.
And if there should really be a fight without AWAACs support how do you think the F-35 is going to find the EF and vice versa?
If they use radar both are going to be blinking in the sky and if both use their eyes and IR-sensors the EF going to play a hard game with its IRIS-T.


OK you need to research the history of the F-117 incident a little more before posting IMHO. Second even if your suggestion was true, and believe me its not. It would be one F-117 lost out of several thousand combat sorties. Statistically meaningless in every way if you are measuring the effectiveness of stealth counter measures.

Then you need to consider the huge difference between the APG-81 and CAPTOR. You are talking about the most advanced fighter radar in the world vs early 1980's technology.

And finally, before commenting on how steathy a particular type is. Understand the the detection range vs RCS is a non linear equation and when you get to the point that US stealth aircraft are at in terms of signature reduction. Its almost meaningless to quibble over which RCS is this or that when your opponent is hundreds to thousands of times larger in terms of RCS.

Oh why is the F-22 and F-35 being purchased. Well, the F-22 was developed under a much different set of requirements and was initially a pure a2a fighter. The F-35 from the start was always going to be a multirole fighter and as such it exceeds the a2g performance of the F-22. The F-22 exceed the flight performance of the F-35 due to its purpose built a2a design. BUt both planes exceed all other platforms in both a2a and a2g missions in high threat environments.

[DarthAmerica]

The UK is actually thinking about leaving the F35 program because the US does not want to share the technology, and its capabilitys don´t offer any superiority over given and prospected designs (mainly the EF i guess)


Again another false and out of context statement. The UK is not thinking of leaving the F-35 because it doesnt offer any margin of superiority over a legacy fighter like the Typhoon. The UK wants access to certain US technologies that the US feels, and for good reason, would be security and economic risk to US interest without direct US control. The radar alone makes the F-35 a golden mile ahead of the Typhoon in terms of capability. This is why AESA equipped or capable F-15/16 have always been prefered over the Typhoon anytime they have been available for procurement.

[Waylander]

I won't try to use selling facts.
Selling military items is for
-political reasons
-political reasons
-political reasons
-military aid
-military aid
-budget
-budget
...
-capabilities

That EF radar is early 1980s tech is not true. Research began in the early '80s but while time goes by the tech is far more advanced than you might have dreamed of in the '80s. You could also say that the F-35 tech is from the time they started developing it.

What should I know about the F-117 incident? Some spooky sources gave the serbians the information in which region and at which time the F-117 operated and then they tracked it by using good placed ground radars and shot it down with a MiG.
That says something about the detection capabilities of a tight net of good ground radars working together with fighters against stealth fighters.

[Marc Aurel]

Maybe the 117 incident was just what happens often in any war and cannot, - by no means - be avoided.

It its called:

BAD LUCK!

:dance

[DarthAmerica]

-capabilities

That EF radar is early 1980s tech is not true. Research began in the early '80s but while time goes by the tech is far more advanced than you might have dreamed of in the '80s. You could also say that the F-35 tech is from the time they started developing it.

It is true. CAPTOR is a mechanical scan array developed in the 1980's in an era where the state of the art is in MESA/AESA arrays.

What should I know about the F-117 incident? Some spooky sources gave the serbians the information in which region and at which time the F-117 operated and then they tracked it by using good placed ground radars and shot it down with a MiG.
That says something about the detection capabilities of a tight net of good ground radars working together with fighters against stealth fighters.

First of all I would like to see some proof of a Mig shooting down an F-117. Second, what it says is if your OPSEC is compromised by enemy intelligence services and complacency then your tactics will not compliment your low RCS.

Stealth is the combination of technology and tactics. Not some magical cloak. I find your discription of the loss of the F-117 to be quite different from what I was told during OAF. THe ironic thing is though this is a moot point how the F-117 was lost in the context of this debate. I would gladly trade one airframe per conflict and out of thousands of sorties, especially if I can recover my pilot, for an almost assured victory.

[DarthAmerica]

Maybe the 117 incident was just what happens often in any war and cannot, - by no means - be avoided.

It its called:

BAD LUCK!

:dance


More likely BAD TACTICS/OPSEC. That can kill anything.

[Marc Aurel]

I always wonder why guys cannot stop talking about things they just cannot know anyway....Hell, yeah, no information written in any magazine or whatever source accessible to public will give u enough information for judging those fighters true capabilities. It all contains too much propaganda and selling interests. What´s looking good on paper can be crap in wartime. Experience shows it to us.

[oldsoak]

This is an invalid arguement for several reasons. Primarily due to a misinterpretation of stealth principles. The difference between the F-22 and F-35 in terms of detection range for the CAPTOR is negligible in an operational sense. Second, the methods by which the F-35 is achieving its reduced RCS are more robust and more evolved than the way the F-22 does it. Also the F-35 is stealthy in the IR spectrum as well and itself has a passive detection suite that is superior to the IRST of the Typhoon. The AGP-81 is an LPI AESA set that could stealthily detect the Typhoon in active and passive modes. So the F-35 will be able to be stealthy while actively seeking out a non stealthy target. Their is no comparison. Like I said, look at the way this panned out for Iraqi IAD vs the F-117/TLAM.

And yes, stealth does help you find the enemy.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on a this. I'm quite sure we wont have long to wait before the RAF comparison between the strength and weaknesses of the two systems comes to light. Especially A2A.

[DarthAmerica]

I always wonder why guys cannot stop talking about things they just cannot know anyway....Hell, yeah, no information written in any magazine or whatever source accessible to public will give u enough information for judging those fighters true capabilities. It all contains too much propaganda and selling interests. What´s looking good on paper can be crap in wartime. Experience shows it to us.

Thats not true because we are not discussing specific performance data. It is possible to make rough estimates based on public data which in this case is sufficient to make a decisive case for the F-35. For example. Enough was known about the F-117 and B-2 in public domain that their performance in Operation Allied Force was correctly predicted in advance.

Bottom line in this comparison is that the F-35 and Typhoon are not an equal or even near equal comparison in air to air combat against each other. Historical data, objective analysis and mathematical data prove this.

[DarthAmerica]

This is an invalid arguement for several reasons. Primarily due to a misinterpretation of stealth principles. The difference between the F-22 and F-35 in terms of detection range for the CAPTOR is negligible in an operational sense. Second, the methods by which the F-35 is achieving its reduced RCS are more robust and more evolved than the way the F-22 does it. Also the F-35 is stealthy in the IR spectrum as well and itself has a passive detection suite that is superior to the IRST of the Typhoon. The AGP-81 is an LPI AESA set that could stealthily detect the Typhoon in active and passive modes. So the F-35 will be able to be stealthy while actively seeking out a non stealthy target. Their is no comparison. Like I said, look at the way this panned out for Iraqi IAD vs the F-117/TLAM.

And yes, stealth does help you find the enemy.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on a this. I'm quite sure we wont have long to wait before the RAF comparison between the strength and weaknesses of the two systems comes to light. Especially A2A.




Sure you could disagree. But if you would like to know the details within the margin of error I think an objective reader would be convinced.