Chilean Army Buys 100 Leopard 2 MBT

[Feña]

Accordingly to JDW, the chilean army has close a deal with Germany (Goverment-to-Goverment) to purchase 100 Leopard 2 A4 MBT. This as part of the modernisation process of the chilean army.

Other 2005-2006 purchases include:

-160 AIFV YPR-765
-24 M109 A3 (RUAG)
-200 Hummvees (some w/ ATGW Spike) 2/3 goes to the Army the remaining 1/3 to chilean Marines.
-Undisclose number of Mistral AA Missiles

There are no information about the possible inclusion of Gepard AAA systems in the deal with Germany.

The chilean army still needs to define the acquisition of new attack / transport helos for the Air Brigade of Rancagua.

Feña

[Whiskyjack]

Accordingly to JDW, the chilean army has close a deal with Germany (Goverment-to-Goverment) to purchase 100 Leopard 2 A4 MBT. This as part of the modernisation process of the chilean army.

Other 2005-2006 purchases include:

-160 AIFV YPR-765
-24 M109 A3 (RUAG)
-200 Hummvees (some w/ ATGW Spike) 2/3 goes to the Army the remaining 1/3 to chilean Marines.
-Undisclose number of Mistral AA Missiles

There are no information about the possible inclusion of Gepard AAA systems in the deal with Germany.

The chilean army still needs to define the acquisition of new attack / transport helos for the Air Brigade of Rancagua.

Feña

A powerful brigade for the region, I think the LeoII will be the most powerful tank in South America. What is the infratructure like for a heavy tank like the LeoII? Bridges and roads etc..?

[gf0012-aust]

Accordingly to JDW, the chilean army has close a deal with Germany (Goverment-to-Goverment) to purchase 100 Leopard 2 A4 MBT.

Excellent tank - and from my own perspective - I wished the Aust army had bought some ex NATO german warstock Leo2A4's that were offered - rather than the Abrams.

[Whiskyjack]

Added to the new frigates and F-16s the above equipment, the armed forces of Chile must be some of the most modern in South South America.

[Bfn42]

Excellent tank - and from my own perspective - I wished the Aust army had bought some ex NATO german warstock Leo2A4's that were offered - rather than the Abrams.




May I ask why?

[gf0012-aust]

May I ask why?


The germans offered us A4's at very competitive prices.
I was involved with some ballistics testing of modified Leo1 panels about 5 years ago. The data on those panels was commensurate with an export Abrams (non DU plate)
Superior gun (IMV)
VFM - value for money. we could have bought 2-3 ,times more MBT's for the same price and the germans were willing to throw in support vehicles etc...
they were ex warstock - so almost brand new and comparable to a zero timed rebuilt abrams as such.

[Bfn42]

The germans offered us A4's at very competitive prices.
I was involved with some ballistics testing of modified Leo1 panels about 5 years ago. The data on those panels was commensurate with an export Abrams (non DU plate)
Superior gun (IMV)
VFM - value for money. we could have bought 2-3 ,times more MBT's for the same price and the germans were willing to throw in support vehicles etc...
they were ex warstock - so almost brand new and comparable to a zero timed rebuilt abrams as such.




Wow! I guess that Descision was more of a political descision then huh? BTW.......What type of ammo....is being shipped with your new abrams? Any DU?

[Supe]

VFM - value for money. we could have bought 2-3 ,times more MBT's for the same price and the germans were willing to throw in support vehicles etc...

...and the ADF wasn't interested?? I suppose the theory went - Abrams is battle tested and the Leo isn't. (GW1+2 was good PR) That should have put the Chally 2 in the running as well. Meanwhile, ADF only gets 59 tanks. ouch.

Kudos to the Chilean Gov. They've got themselves a sweet deal and a potent armour capability.

[gf0012-aust]

...and the ADF wasn't interested?? I suppose the theory went - Abrams is battle tested and the Leo isn't. (GW1+2 was good PR) That should have put the Chally 2 in the running as well. Meanwhile, ADF only gets 59 tanks. ouch.

Kudos to the Chilean Gov. They've got themselves a sweet deal and a potent armour capability.

Well, I'm no armour guy, so I'm sure that army have more than sufficient reasons for going with Abrams - its just that I can't see them ;)

[Feña]

Hi

About the infraestructure question, there are no problems of roads or bridges in the Central Chile (Santiago - Valpo), because Chile is an export country and our roads system was design to sustain a bunch of heavy trucks traffic (18 wheelers and such) wich were responsible of moving the goods to the main ports, so a L2 is not a such big deal :D

Besides, the main concentrations of the Chilean Armor are in the Atacama desert in the northern border, facing our always unfriendly neighbours of Perú and Bolivia, so as you may know, there are no problems to move an Armor Brigade over a desert, if you can`t find a road, you just make one :cool:

The other armor concentration of the chilean army is in the Patagonia, but we have excelent relations with the argentinians, so that garrison is not the destination of the L2 (we have there Leopard 1 (L1) and AMX 30).

And yes, in the next years the ECH (Chilean Army) will be the "biggest and meanest dog" of the block :D , but there are reasons for that, mainly the rising of two dime "leaders" :rolleyes: such Ollanta Humala (Perú) and Hugo Chavéz (Venezuela), and we are seen in LA as the "watch dog of the empire" (US) because of our friendly relations with the US and our extended network of FTA, so is better be a good neighbour, work with them and try to advance in our relations with all the countryes in LA, but at the same have reasonable military strength.

I dont have the detail of the german deal, but here is seen as the first batch of a total purchase of 300 L2 wich will replace all the remaining obsolete MBT of Chile (60 Improved M41, 60 AMX 30 B2 and the most worn out of the L1`s), that replacement must be completed in 2010 - 2012.

The main problem of the ECH NOW is the lack of air support, we dont have any attack helos and our heli transport force almost didnt deserve that name ... the Pumas AS 330/332 are in bad shape and the replacement program was posponed because the Goverment wants a single purchase of a standar model for the three services, but every service has his own requirements so, as you can imagine the generals and admirals were unable to find an agreement ... we (in the fox holes, I mean :cool: ) hope that the transport helo will be the ALH of Hindustan Helicopters wich is based in the German BK 117 and has israeli electronics, and the attack helo will be the AH 1Z Zulu Cobra ... but thats a long shoot because the US Marines are in love with that bird ... but hope is the last thing to loose ...

The price offered by the germans was US$400 the piece, and a extensive support package, probably including engineers vehicles and ... who knows maybe some Gepard AAA

Bye

[Feña]

Ups, the right price was US$400.000 the piece .... sorry

Bye

[rossfrb_1]

Wow! I guess that Descision was more of a political descision then huh? BTW.......What type of ammo....is being shipped with your new abrams? Any DU?


No DU, that'd be too controversial with the voters.
Looks like three types, i)training rounds ii) M830A1 Multipurpose iii) KEW-A2 tungsten APFSDS-T
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m830a1.htm
http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/inthenews/pressr/1204.html
".....
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems will be the program prime contractor and will produce the latest 120mm KEW-A2 tungsten APFSDS-T cartridge, as well as quantities of training ammunition, for the Australian Armed Forces.
Tom Wilson, vice president, ATK Precision Systems Group, whose Ordnance and Ground Systems business unit will produce both the M830A1 Multipurpose round and training ammunition under the contract, said, "ATK and...."

People have complained that the ammunition types to be used by ADF for the Abrams are too limited.
I've read claims that ADF should also have some form of canister round on order. eg XM1028
Plus if you're going the whole hog, some form of guided munition would be handy too. eg GD-OTS
http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/dirfire.html

I've got no idea what's currently used in ADF Leo1s.

cheers
rb

[Supe]

The main problem of the ECH NOW is the lack of air support, we dont have any attack helos and our heli transport force almost didnt deserve that name ... the Pumas AS 330/332 are in bad shape and the replacement program was posponed because the Goverment wants a single purchase of a standar model for the three services, but every service has his own requirements so, as you can imagine the generals and admirals were unable to find an agreement ...



Perhaps the requirement could be met by 2 x types of Helos then. The NH-90 is proving to an emerging platform amongst nations wanting to consolidate their helo fleets.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
VFM - value for money. we could have bought 2-3 ,times more MBT's for the same price and the germans were willing to throw in support vehicles etc...
they were ex warstock - so almost brand new and comparable to a zero timed rebuilt abrams as such.[/LIST]

I have been thinking that it would be nice for NZ to get some of those along with some IFVs for QAMAR, so we can pretend to have an offensive punch for our army.
Fat chance I hear people say?
Well dreams are free.

[gf0012-aust]

I have been thinking that it would be nice for NZ to get some of those along with some IFVs for QAMAR, so we can pretend to have an offensive punch for our army.
Fat chance I hear people say?
Well dreams are free.

The Germans have been giving the stuff away - and their ex NATO warstock stuff is impeccable.

we could have had SPH, arty, APC, etc... all at bargain prices and all in mint condition.

it wouldn't surprise me if they had approached NZ as well. AFAIK NZ is still on the NATO "share" list

[Stuart Mackey]

The Germans have been giving the stuff away - and their ex NATO warstock stuff is impeccable.

we could have had SPH, arty, APC, etc... all at bargain prices and all in mint condition.

it wouldn't surprise me if they had approached NZ as well. AFAIK NZ is still on the NATO "share" list

NZ has recently signed an intelligence sharing agreement with NATO and we will soon be effectivly under a NATO organisation in Afganistan. Its not unreasonable to think that NZ is on the 'Share' list, but I dont recall the German approching us with equipment offers however.
Still, if National wins the next election, and can actually develop a defence policy, then you never know what might happen {I just hope that politics dont get in the way of value for money}.

[Supe]

Would NZDF really want some of that heavy equipment though? NZDF travels pretty light these days - though I can conceive of NZDF procuring towed 155mm artillery at some point...

[Feña]

Well, what can I say, the reequipment programs of the chilean AF has been greatly advanced because of the "garaje sales" of the european countryes, and I think that we havent seen the last of it ... we still need some movile AAA systems (Gepard the crowd`s cry), complete the replacement of the MBT with L2, some more M109 and maybe another 160 AIFV to complete the TOE of another heavy brigade, the infantry battalions has nearly 600 M113 (including special variants such as engineers, ambulance, etc), 100 MOWAG Piranha 8x8 an another 300 6x6 so they are OK ... the Hummvees will be brand news and the ATW too, so, we have created a good force mix, still we need the helos, european options have been considered and so the Black Hawk, but since that is not my particular area of expertise I cant say what will happen there ..

Bye

[Stuart Mackey]

Would NZDF really want some of that heavy equipment though? NZDF travels pretty light these days - though I can conceive of NZDF procuring towed 155mm artillery at some point...

I think the quesion is, does the government? The army is supposed to be able to put a battalion group into a chapter 7 peace enforcement/mid intensity conflict operation. The artillery is supposed to be replaced in a few years and I think we will probably end up with whatever the Australians get....but this is way off topic..my bad;)

[Lucasnz]

I think the quesion is, does the government? The army is supposed to be able to put a battalion group into a chapter 7 peace enforcement/mid intensity conflict operation. The artillery is supposed to be replaced in a few years and I think we will probably end up with whatever the Australians get....but this is way off topic..my bad;)

I can remember seeing a battery of heavy artillery at the Hamilton Army in the 1980's. The army sought to replace them under I think it was the 4th Labour government, but failed to justify its case (I think this is in the book Defending NZ). I can't see the army going for 155mm when it can only field 3 6 gun batterys of 105mm. I think the army should go for 8 gun battery regiment, with a further 18 guns for intro training, terroritial force use. This would take us back to where we use to be before the pack howiziters were withdrawn.

[Glider]

It will be interesting to see what Argentina do when the Chilian Leopard 2's are comming on stream. I hope they see sence and go into a my army is bigger than your army contest. That can lead to serious trouble

[Supe]

I think the quesion is, does the government? The army is supposed to be able to put a battalion group into a chapter 7 peace enforcement/mid intensity conflict operation. The artillery is supposed to be replaced in a few years and I think we will probably end up with whatever the Australians get....but this is way off topic..my bad;)

Well procurment of 155mm arty pieces would surely depend on NZDF advice to Government. The case would have to be made for them. It appears to me, there is a trend emerging of nations emphasising use of 155mm calibre - I can conceive the Kiwis buying at a later date, whatever ADF chooses for its towed component. The Canadian have acquired some M777's - and have been deployed in Afghanistan. So a nation that considers its forces as mostly 'peacekeepers' has seen fit to buy heavier weaponry.

Back on to the Chileans.

@Glider

The OP has said relations with the Argentians are amicable and as I understand, they are not in a position economically to buy equipment.

And yes, in the next years the ECH (Chilean Army) will be the "biggest and meanest dog" of the block , but there are reasons for that, mainly the rising of two dime "leaders" such Ollanta Humala (Perú) and Hugo Chavéz (Venezuela), and we are seen in LA as the "watch dog of the empire" (US) because of our friendly relations with the US

Those characterisations (watchdog) can lead to political friction (or exacerbate existing friction) in the region. Is the watchdog characterisation a local media creation? I can see the propangadists and spin doctors saying 'lapdop' rather than watchdog.

[Stuart Mackey]

I can remember seeing a battery of heavy artillery at the Hamilton Army in the 1980's. The army sought to replace them under I think it was the 4th Labour government, but failed to justify its case (I think this is in the book Defending NZ).

IIRC those were 5.5 inch weapons.


I can't see the army going for 155mm when it can only field 3 6 gun batterys of 105mm. I think the army should go for 8 gun battery regiment, with a further 18 guns for intro training, terroritial force use. This would take us back to where we use to be before the pack howiziters were withdrawn.

Maybe, but given who we expect to work with I think commonality in such matters would be advantagous. I would be surpised if SP artillery is not looked at as well given the return to a moterised infantry force.

[Feña]

Its a construction on the leftist media in LA, we say NO to Bush in the Security Council (Where it REALLY matters BTW) when Chile was non permanent member and he was seeking approval of the UN to his Iraki campaign, Chile could have lost a lot since in that days we are closing the negotiations to the free trade agreement with the US, something in wich the democratic goverment has work for nearly 8 years ... so, yes we think that we are friends of the US, but a friend with an attitude :nutkick

The problem down here is that the left wing goverments or, even worst, leftist nacionalist goverments of LA (a good example is venezuela`s president Mr. Chavez) trys to convince the people that the source of all their problems is the market and the US, so, in the way they see the world, Chile is a problem because we have been succesfuly reducing the poverty (now about 18% of the population) but within a social-market economy ...

There are no problems with Argentina, they goverment don´t have any desire of build up the capacitys of the AF, so, the Argentinian Army still rolls on TAM MBT (wich is a little inferior to the chilean Leopard 1 Vertebed), the Air force flyes Mirages of the Falklands war (this is no joke, the birds have mission marking and all, it´s quite impressing) and the A4AR, wich is like a NZ A4 I Think (APG 65 radar), the main problem is the lack of modern missiles, they still operates AIM-L, even the americans have to lend them some AIM 9M to protect the Mar del Plata President Summit last year ... in medium range the situation is even worst ...

For us, the main concern is the rising of ethnic or nationalist goverment in Perú and Bolivia, countrys that dont feel any sympaties for us, this came from a war of the 19 century in wich Chile defeated them and take some territories, so there are still a dormant revenge feeling ... wich can be exploited by an unrational leader ...

Bye

[Feña]

Well, It`s has been confirmed today by the German MoD, Chile will receive 118 Leopard 2 A4 MBT, besides the combat vehicles, the package include special vehicles such as school, engineers and bridge layers ... nothing about the Gepards ... well you can´t have it all, right? :cool:

I think that today some brindis will be made in the cavalry regiments of the chilean army :D :D

Bye

[Aussie Digger]

No DU, that'd be too controversial with the voters.
Looks like three types, i)training rounds ii) M830A1 Multipurpose iii) KEW-A2 tungsten APFSDS-T
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m830a1.htm
http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/inthenews/pressr/1204.html
".....
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems will be the program prime contractor and will produce the latest 120mm KEW-A2 tungsten APFSDS-T cartridge, as well as quantities of training ammunition, for the Australian Armed Forces.
Tom Wilson, vice president, ATK Precision Systems Group, whose Ordnance and Ground Systems business unit will produce both the M830A1 Multipurpose round and training ammunition under the contract, said, "ATK and...."

People have complained that the ammunition types to be used by ADF for the Abrams are too limited.
I've read claims that ADF should also have some form of canister round on order. eg XM1028
Plus if you're going the whole hog, some form of guided munition would be handy too. eg GD-OTS
http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/dirfire.html

I've got no idea what's currently used in ADF Leo1s.

cheers
rb

Relax, the Australian Army IS getting the Tungsten cube "canister" round. (I'll try and dig up some evidence to support this soon, but I "know" I read it in Army rag, I mean, er, mag...

Our Leo AS1's currently use HEAT and HESH rounds, plus sub-cal training rounds. So even that package nominated above seems like an improvement.

As to getting back on topic, I think this is a good move for Chile. The Leo II's are widely regarded as an excellent tank (The Royal Australian Armoured Corps wanted IT instead of Abrams too), and should serve Chile well. A fleet of 300 would make it by far the most potent armoured force in the America's and probably only second behind the US itself...

[Super Nimrod]

Fena, Do you think you will still get all 300 MBT's if the price of copper falls ?

I would never be surprised to see the the excellent Chilian Navy find themselves in posession of a small aircraft carrier and a dozen Harriers in the next few years as well ;)

[Feña]

About the 300 L2 ... Yes, there are no doubts about it. That`s because that particular acquisition program are part of a "force development plan" for the army, we don´t go around buying anything just because it`s cheap and shiny :rolleyes: , before ever consider to get new weapons systems, each service make an operational evaluation to see if we can support and operate it.

The incorporation of the L2 was part of the long term plans of the army, but the high copper price and the discount sales in Europe create an opportunity that we cannot miss ... and since the number of L2 for sale in the german stock is reducing fast, we think that this is the time to buy ...

About the carrier, that`s an issue that we have discussed a lot in Chile, but at the end, it was to expensive for us to operate, and the Harrier is not such a great plane to justify the effort .... MAYBE, the Navy will consider to buy another Type 23 frigate if England offer it to us, but thats about all they willing to buy ...

[arck]

There is no reason to such army and navy increase,,,,,,the chilenean must watch his own poor people instead to buy equipment for what war,,,,,

[swerve]

About the 300 L2 ... Yes, there are no doubts about it. That`s because that particular acquisition program are part of a "force development plan" for the army, we don´t go around buying anything just because it`s cheap and shiny :rolleyes: , before ever consider to get new weapons systems, each service make an operational evaluation to see if we can support and operate it....

Buying 300 Leopard 2 would be exactly that - "buying ... just because it`s cheap and shiny". What possible use could Chile have for so many? There is no army in South America which could stand up to 118, let alone 300. Compare that number with the tank forces of Spain, France, the UK, Italy & Germany. It's silly. Serves no purpose except to boost the egos of army officers.

Being able to support & operate something doesn't mean you need it. Tell me, where would these 300 Leopard 2s be used? Against Peru? Overkill. Argentina? Ditto. Bolivia? Don't make me laugh. So what's left? Overseas deployments? But the money for transport has all been spent on tanks . . . . :D

118 is plenty. More than enough. If there's spare money in the military budget, spend it on something useful, such as a couple of Erieyes, or more second-hand F-16s, or better communications, or transport.

Tell me, has the army high command been grumbling about being left out when the air force & navy got shiny new toys?

[swerve]

Fena, Do you think you will still get all 300 MBT's if the price of copper falls ?

I would never be surprised to see the the excellent Chilian Navy find themselves in posession of a small aircraft carrier and a dozen Harriers in the next few years as well ;)

I would. What's the lifespan of the Harriers now in service, & how many are spare? I'd say "not enough" & "probably none". Only spare Harriers I know of are the ex-RN SHARs, & they have iffy engines & for some reason we don't want to sell the radars, so they'd need a hell of a lot of money spent on 'em. And the only ship to fly 'em off is Invincible. By the time she's released for sale, will the SHARs still exist? I wouldn't bet on it.

People keep forgetting that Harriers are no longer made..

[Feña]

Buying 300 Leopard 2 would be exactly that - "buying ... just because it`s cheap and shiny". What possible use could Chile have for so many? There is no army in South America which could stand up to 118, let alone 300. Compare that number with the tank forces of Spain, France, the UK, Italy & Germany. It's silly. Serves no purpose except to boost the egos of army officers.

I think that you are kinda new to South American geography, but our country has nearly 4000 km long and an average width of 120 km, so we dont have that much "strategic depth", and the main army corps can´t cooperate if a war situation arise, so we did need two strong army units in each side of the country (Northern desert and patagonia) and ANOTHER army corps in the center to protect the main populated areas. This operative vision came from two serious war scares in the seventies, one with Perú an one with Argentina, in each ocasion we were facing a onslaught of peruvian an argentinian military with WWII weapons (Sherman tanks, Daring destroyers, etc), they have at that time 300 T55 MBT, 115 AMX 13, 60 SU 22, 25 Mirage V, 8 Submarines (Peruvians) and 250 TAM MBT, 35 Mirage III, 60 A4 Skyhawks and a CV "25 de Mayo" (Argentinians), so we dont want to be in that possition again, and our economy can provide the INVESTMENT required for such purchase programs.

And besides, do you think that the peruvians and argentinians will never again buy new weapons systems?, in due course they will, and the european bargains probably will be exhausted by that time, so we take the opportunity and buy the items that are needed in our reduced military. Thats because the MoD has closed nearly 40 territorial regiments, so now we do have a much more smaller army, but it is a LOT more combat ready, had complete TOE´s and get a lot of training for modern warfare. And this is mayor contribution to the South American stability because nobody, even the most crazyest goverment that could rise in LA will dare to face such force in the field.

For overseas deployment the army had created a special operations brigade, that force will have one paratroopers and one commando regiment, support units like a high mobility company (HUMMERS), and a helicopter company (probably Eurocopter Cougars) and a logistic & support battalion. The mission for that unit is to be able to deploy in 24 hours in any part of our country or overseas.

118 is plenty. More than enough. If there's spare money in the military budget, spend it on something useful, such as a couple of Erieyes, or more second-hand F-16s, or better communications, or transport.

I agree with you that the Air Force need more investment, but as you probably know there are several offers from european F16MLU, including extra netherlands and belgian planes, so in a couple of years I think the feather heads will buy another 28 - 30 planes to replace the Mirage Pantera of the Group 4 and the A37 of the Group 12. The only doubt now is wich plane will be selected to replace the F5 TIII + of the Group 7, but that decition will be made in 2010 - 2012.

Tell me, has the army high command been grumbling about being left out when the air force & navy got shiny new toys?

Nop, has a matter of fact, the three services receive the same amount of money, so the army has been stashing their bucks to buy something really juicy, maybe some gepard AAA or the helos for the snake eathers ... but also they have buy a lot of more "low profile" equipment including the licence for the new standar infantry rifle ...

Bye for now ...

[swerve]

I think that you are kinda new to South American geography,
No, mate. Read my posts. I've mentioned travelling through some of the country you describe (but not the north of Chile: not been there). I can visualise a map of Chile - indeed, the whole Cono del Sur - in my head, fairly accurately.


but our country has nearly 4000 km long and an average width of 120 km, so we dont have that much "strategic depth", and the main army corps can´t cooperate if a war situation arise, so we did need two strong army units in each side of the country (Northern desert and patagonia) and ANOTHER army corps in the center to protect the main populated areas.
Answer me this - how many TAMs can get over the Andes to get at central Chile? I've been there, crossed those mountains, & I don't think MBTs would play much part in fighting across them. If the Argentinean army has tanks threatening Santiago, you've already lost, & all those tanks won't save you.
Now, for an army corps in Patagonia. Doing what? Let's say the Argentineans attack towards Aysen, or any point between there & the far south. What's your corps down there going to do? You need light forces, preferably airmobile. Your one & only road is far, far too easy to cut, & still doesn't go anywhere near all the way, & the terrain is extremely rugged. Tanks would be more use in the far south which is, effectively, an island (or rather, an archipelago), accessible only by sea & air, but only if you have good strength in the air, & protection for the sea lanes, or forces there will wither on the vine. But in any case, what are they defending? That's territory which can be best defended by defeating Argentina further north, & therefore getting a good peace settlement. Its temporary loss would not threaten Chiles survival.

Across the southern Andes towards Osorno & Puerto Montt is more vulnerable. Still not exactly easy terrain (all those trees! - but I expect the road's been paved now), but easier than further north, & it gives access to the heart of the country. Of course, there, Argentina has worse logistical problems than Chile, unlike further south. Have you seen the roads on their side? Much better on the Chilean side, when I was there. And shorter distances, too. Chilean units would be better able to support each other than Argentinean. Sometimes lack of strategic depth is a positive advantage.

Now, what did you say about my knowledge of the geography?


... now we do have a much more smaller army, but it is a LOT more combat ready, had complete TOE´s and get a lot of training for modern warfare. And this is mayor contribution to the South American stability because nobody, even the most crazyest goverment that could rise in LA will dare to face such force in the field.

Exactly. It's gross overkill. That's what I said.


I agree with you that the Air Force need more investment, but as you probably know there are several offers from european F16MLU, including extra netherlands and belgian planes, so in a couple of years I think the feather heads will buy another 28 - 30 planes to replace the Mirage Pantera of the Group 4 and the A37 of the Group 12. The only doubt now is wich plane will be selected to replace the F5 TIII + of the Group 7, but that decition will be made in 2010 - 2012....

Bye for now ...
Should have bought them instead of paying to operate all those Leo 2s. And helicopters, with high-altitude capabilities.

[harryriedl]

I agree with you that the Air Force need more investment, but as you probably know there are several offers from european F16MLU, including extra netherlands and belgian planes, so in a couple of years I think the feather heads will buy another 28 - 30 planes to replace the Mirage Pantera of the Group 4 and the A37 of the Group 12. The only doubt now is wich plane will be selected to replace the F5 TIII + of the Group 7, but that decition will be made in 2010 - 2012.

i thought the a37 were staying in service as they were well liked and were excellent CAS aircraft also more f16 would be good for chile especialie as some euro users are relplaceing their F16 and they should be going cheap

[tankee1981]

Sorry, I have a question but its not directly related to Chile's military.

Recently, Singapore also announced that we are buying 66 Leo2A4 plus 30 spare tanks from Germany. So i am wondering if they are from the same stock(ex German war stock) as those sold to Chile and if there are any differences. Thanks :D

[swerve]

Sorry, I have a question but its not directly related to Chile's military.

Recently, Singapore also announced that we are buying 66 Leo2A4 plus 30 spare tanks from Germany. So i am wondering if they are from the same stock(ex German war stock) as those sold to Chile and if there are any differences. Thanks :D

Yes. Read the "German tank sales" thread for a breakdown.

[Feña]

i thought the a37 were staying in service as they were well liked and were excellent CAS aircraft also more f16 would be good for chile especialie as some euro users are relplaceing their F16 and they should be going cheap

Yes It is a cheap plane to fly but you cant do it forever right? ... so in a few years it must be replaced by a new plane and since the FACH (Chilean Air Force) are trying to reduce the operating cost of the force, the plane of choice will be more F16 ... and now they are not that expensive so it all fits together

how many TAMs can get over the Andes to get at central Chile? I've been there, crossed those mountains, & I don't think MBTs would play much part in fighting across them. If the Argentinean army has tanks threatening Santiago, you've already lost, & all those tanks won't save you.

Thats why you wont see large heavy formatins in central Chile, maybe a regiment / battalion in Santiago (after all it is the capital) and the armored cavalry school battalion, but the main forces will be the Special Operation Brigade, the Air Brigade, two mountain brigades plus three or four reinforced regiments (two battalions plus support).

Now, for an army corps in Patagonia. Doing what? Let's say the Argentineans attack towards Aysen, or any point between there & the far south. What's your corps down there going to do? You need light forces, preferably airmobile. Your one & only road is far, far too easy to cut, & still doesn't go anywhere near all the way, & the terrain is extremely rugged. Tanks would be more use in the far south which is, effectively, an island (or rather, an archipelago), accessible only by sea & air, but only if you have good strength in the air, & protection for the sea lanes, or forces there will wither on the vine. But in any case, what are they defending? That's territory which can be best defended by defeating Argentina further north, & therefore getting a good peace settlement. Its temporary loss would not threaten Chiles survival.

After reading your post I got to think that you probably know just Aysen, the ground changes at the southern part of Chile and this part connects with the argentinian pampa, wich are a great MBT country, beause it allows the most efficient use of the main armament with long range engagemets, so its reasonable situate a armored formation there.

Besides, you had said it, there are just one road and it can be easily closed by air power so we did need pre position assets to deal with any threat, dont you agree?

In the chilean patagonia you can find several oil and gas shafts and the magallanes strait wich will be the only passage betwen the atlantic and the pacific ocean if the Panama canal is closed ... so it has certain strategic importance, besides, there lives at least 300.000 chileans in the cityes of Punta Arenas, Natales and Puerto Williams, they are our fellow countrymen and we certainly didnt gona leave them unprotected as they were in the 70´s. At this point the army corps in patagonia is capable of maintain his ground against an invader until it was reinforced.

And in a more "emotional" level if you like, if you were an american general and there was a cuban invation (i know its prepousterous but allow me this), you will retreat a perfectly good field army from Florida to Georgia, just because the lost of it doesnt theathen the US survival as a nation?

Across the southern Andes towards Osorno & Puerto Montt is more vulnerable. Still not exactly easy terrain (all those trees! - but I expect the road's been paved now), but easier than further north, & it gives access to the heart of the country. Of course, there, Argentina has worse logistical problems than Chile, unlike further south.

Thats right, the andes are lower at that part of the country, but again you can counter this kind of attacks with a combination of forces, the armour will be just a part of it and, I say it again, I dont want to be the army with the winter andes at my back, logistics is the magic word here ....

Have you seen the roads on their side? Much better on the Chilean side, when I was there.

Not any more, the chilean roads are now far better,

And shorter distances, too. Chilean units would be better able to support each other than Argentinean. Sometimes lack of strategic depth is a positive advantage.

Yep, but only if you have something to throw in the game ....

Now, what did you say about my knowledge of the geography?

I will give you a B- :D :D :D

[swerve]

... After reading your post I got to think that you probably know just Aysen, the ground changes at the southern part of Chile and this part connects with the argentinian pampa, wich are a great MBT country, beause it allows the most efficient use of the main armament with long range engagemets, so its reasonable situate a armored formation there.
You're right, I haven't seen the very far south, except in photographs. But I was aware it was better tank country than further north.

...
Besides, you had said it, there are just one road and it can be easily closed by air power so we did need pre position assets to deal with any threat, dont you agree?.
But not much point in pre-positioning forces which the other side can afford to ignore. They become a waste of resources.

... In the chilean patagonia you can find several oil and gas shafts and the magallanes strait wich will be the only passage betwen the atlantic and the pacific ocean if the Panama canal is closed ... so it has certain strategic importance, besides, there lives at least 300.000 chileans in the cityes of Punta Arenas, Natales and Puerto Williams, they are our fellow countrymen and we certainly didnt gona leave them unprotected as they were in the 70´s. At this point the army corps in patagonia is capable of maintain his ground against an invader until it was reinforced.

And in a more "emotional" level if you like, if you were an american general and there was a cuban invation (i know its prepousterous but allow me this), you will retreat a perfectly good field army from Florida to Georgia, just because the lost of it doesnt theathen the US survival as a nation?

Understandable, but in the unlikely event (& seriously, do you really expect it?) of a war, devoting a large part of your army to defending 2% of your population doesn't seem sensible. The seaway is of strategic value more to other countries than Chile.

...
Thats right, the andes are lower at that part of the country, but again you can counter this kind of attacks with a combination of forces, the armour will be just a part of it and, I say it again, I dont want to be the army with the winter andes at my back, logistics is the magic word here ....
Agreed! Emphatically!

...
Not any more, the chilean roads are now far better,
You've misunderstood me. That's what I said.

...
I will give you a B- :D :D :D
Better than the E- you gave me before, eh?;)

[Feña]

But not much point in pre-positioning forces which the other side can afford to ignore. They become a waste of resources.

Why is that?, if you have travel in the south part of Argentina you must know that in their part of the patagonia are the main argentinian fields of oil and gas and they need those fields to supply their domestic needs of energy, and even part of that production is sold to Chile ;) so, as far as I know, oil is something any country try to keep, in the very unlikely event of a war, they cant afford to "ignore" a heavy unit equiped with Leopards 2, YPR 765, Hummvees with spike ATGMs, and supported by a couple of F16 squadrons, because they will roll over one of the most valuable real state of their country ...

As I said the possibility of a war between Chile and Argentina is very unlikely, but as the romans says "si vis pacem, para bellum" and the sad thruth is that Argentina has a black record of treatening to use force to deal with us, the most recent event was in 1978 when they were at hours of launching a full scale assault on us, even some argentine regiments advance several kilometers inside Chile before they get the call back by the high command, and the only reason that they didnt launch that operation was because the amphibious force that has the mission of take by assault three strategic chilean islands were badly shaken by a south atlantic storm ... so we take the "eternal friendship" statements of the argentinians with one or two grains of salt ... and the other part of this is the peruvians, in that ocasion they rise the activity of the armoured corps in Tacna (300 T55 MBT located at 40 km of the northern chilean border) and their navy begin "combat exercises" that will take their fleet to the south ... so that wasnt funny nor happy days in the foxholes and we will be damn if we get in that possition again ... remember that the lieutenants and capitains that were in the ground facing the war with old equipment and few ammunitions were now generals :D :D ....

Bye

[swerve]

Why is that?, if you have travel in the south part of Argentina you must know that in their part of the patagonia are the main argentinian fields of oil and gas and they need those fields to supply their domestic needs of energy, and even part of that production is sold to Chile ;) so, as far as I know, oil is something any country try to keep, in the very unlikely event of a war, they cant afford to "ignore" a heavy unit equiped with Leopards 2, YPR 765, Hummvees with spike ATGMs, and supported by a couple of F16 squadrons, because they will roll over one of the most valuable real state of their country ...


Probably not, because of what you said: logistics. Any Chilean forces poised to attack Argentinean oilfields (e.g. all those nodding donkeys inland of Comodoro Rivadavia) will be at the end of a very precarious supply line, easily cut. Ask Napoleon or Rommel about the wisdom of attacking in those circumstances.

BTW, the important part of the force you describe is the last part: "a couple of F-16 squadrons". Ground forces advancing into Argentinean Patagonia without command of the air are doomed. With command of the air, they don't need lots of heavy armour: indeed, it would be a drag, adding greatly to their logistical needs & slowing them down.


As I said the possibility of a war between Chile and Argentina is very unlikely, but as the romans says "si vis pacem, para bellum" and the sad thruth is that Argentina has a black record of treatening to use force to deal with us, the most recent event was in 1978 when they were at hours of launching a full scale assault on us, even some argentine regiments advance several kilometers inside Chile before they get the call back by the high command, and the only reason that they didnt launch that operation was because the amphibious force that has the mission of take by assault three strategic chilean islands were badly shaken by a south atlantic storm ... so we take the "eternal friendship" statements of the argentinians with one or two grains of salt ... and the other part of this is the peruvians, in that ocasion they rise the activity of the armoured corps in Tacna (300 T55 MBT located at 40 km of the northern chilean border) and their navy begin "combat exercises" that will take their fleet to the south ... so that wasnt funny nor happy days in the foxholes and we will be damn if we get in that possition again ... remember that the lieutenants and capitains that were in the ground facing the war with old equipment and few ammunitions were now generals :D :D ....

Bye

Argentina is no longer ruled by a stupidly adventurous military dictatorship. Argentinean governments have kept the armed forces short of money (because the govt was more frightened of the army than invasion!) for over 20 years. Times have changed. And last estimate I saw was that most of those Peruvian T-55s aren't serviceable.

[contedicavour]

Chile has been very wise in using windfall from high copper prices to renew its armed forces with very cheap modern material. The Dutch and British FFGs, the F16s and now Leo2s clearly make Chile's armed forces the best equipped south of the Rio Grande, and by a big margin. Next priority should be to add to its 10 new F16s with European MLU F16s. Btw do the Chileans have access to Amraam or are they using Israeli Derby like Brazil ?

Argentina hasn't spent much on its armed forces in the last 20 years, with its navy only receiving second hand fleet replenisher and a '60s vintage French LPD, the air force updating the electronics on its A4s. Argentina poses no threat to its neighbors with today's equipment. They would desperately need the same second hand equipment that Chile is buying...

Peru has some decently modern Russian equipment (MIG29, SU25, T72s IIRC) and its acquisition of 4 ex Italian Lupo FFGs gives it a good homogeneous frigate squadron of 8 almost identical FFGs.

To summarize, Chile is investing to ensure its superiority for 20+ years. A wise choice. It would be better if it helped out more in UN missions, now that it has first rate equipment ;)

cheers

[Gladius]

Btw do the Chileans have access to Amraam or are they using Israeli Derby like Brazil ?

The FACh will use both missiles, the AMRAAMs were included in the Peace Puma Program (the 547 Million US$ F-16 deal). The Derbys missiles were inroduced in the FACh a few years ago, and apparently a second purchase was reported last year (of about ~80 uds).

[contedicavour]

The FACh will use both missiles, the AMRAAMs were included in the Peace Puma Program (the 547 Million US$ F-16 deal). The Derbys missiles were inroduced in the FACh a few years ago, and apparently a second purchase was reported last year (of about ~80 uds).

Thanks for the information !
Chile is the first Latin American country to operate Amraam then. Yet another edge vs Peruvian unmodernized Mirage 2000 and MIG29s. Their armed forces are getting very close to NATO standards.

cheers

[Gladius]

Peru has some decently modern Russian equipment (MIG29, SU25, T72s IIRC) and its acquisition of 4 ex Italian Lupo FFGs gives it a good homogeneous frigate squadron of 8 almost identical FFGs.

A little comment, the thing with the rumored T-72 is very dark. Rumors about them has been appeared on the Sud-American Media and internet, but at this moment we remain awaiting a sole photo to verify their presence in Peru. Its very strange with the proliferation of pics and videos of all available Peruvian vehicles, aircrafts etc... included rare prototypes as the Leon 1 (T-55 with Missiles AT...) that years after the start of the rumors of T-72 we are awaiting still for one evidence of their existence.

I'm afraid that the T-72 theme ends like the supposed rumor of M-84 (ex-Yugoslavians).

IMHO, the upgrade received by the T-55, observed during the Military Parades of 2006, doesn't foretell anything encouraging in the matter. Why spend more money in them if you have received new MBTs?

[contedicavour]

A little comment, the thing with the rumored T-72 is very dark. Rumors about them has been appeared on the Sud-American Media and internet, but at this moment we remain awaiting a sole photo to verify their presence in Peru. Its very strange with the proliferation of pics and videos of all available Peruvian vehicles, aircrafts etc... included rare prototypes as the Leon 1 (T-55 with Missiles AT...) that years after the start of the rumors of T-72 we are awaiting still for one evidence of their existence.

I'm afraid that the T-72 theme ends like the supposed rumor of M-84 (ex-Yugoslavians).

IMHO, the upgrade received by the T-55, observed during the Military Parades of 2006, doesn't foretell anything encouraging in the matter. Why spend more money in them if you have received new MBTs?

True, I have never seen pictures of Peruvian T72s despite all the talking about them. Peru will need them to equilibrate forces a bit with Chile on its southern border. On the Ecuadorian border though, given the jungles and rivers, I'd rather see more artillery (120mm mortars especially) and helos (MI-8/17) for highly mobile infantry troops.
Anyway, Peru is benefitting from the same minerals' price increase bonanza on world markets. So they should be able to fund some more material after the 4 Italian Lupo FFG acquisition last year.

cheers

[Feña]

I was looking for a flash presentation of the new "armored brigades" of the chilean army, at least five of this will be created in the next years, and the program seems to be concluded in 2010 ...

New Armoured Brigades (http://www.emol.com/especiales/infografias/unidadesdecombate/index.htm)

Bye

[Feña]

Well as the presentation shows the five new armoured brigades will be operational between 2010 and 2012, each one will had an exploration seccion with 4 helos and 40 Hummves, the combat outfit will had 50 Leopard 2 MBTs, 150 M113 / YPR 765 AIFV, 12 M109 RUAG and 12 AA system (probably german Gepards). The ATGM are the SPIKE SR/MR/LR mounted on the Hummves and YPRs.

Three of this brigades will be located in the far north facing Perú and Bolivia and the remaining two gona be in the far south, facing Argentina. This distribution is because that part of the country are the best MBT country and dont have the protection of the Andes as a natural barrier.

About the peruvian T72 they never have been shown to anybody so is kind of hard to tell that this MBT are in their inventory, and even if they have it, the crews simply aren´t getting the apropiate amoun of training ... so to play "catch up", Argentina, Perú and to lesser extent Bolivia need to invest an awful lot of money and I don´t think they have the will to do it, and even if they do, you just cant improvise a Brigade by buying the tanks, so, we in LA probably are facing a "Pax Chilena" for at least 20 years :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

By the way ... yesterday the Minister of Defense Ms Blanlot visit the Palace of La Moneda with the army four-star .... I think the army is gona make more news real soon .... "yes madame president sign, here, here and here" :D :D :D

[Gladius]

Interesting Feña, but I see some problems.

First, the info is from the newspaper El Mercurio, with many antecedents of inaccurate info (like occur with the Spanish Weaponry deals with Columbia). Do you have any official source to verify the info on the graphics? Because my last official info of the plans of reform of the Chilean Army (from September 2006) included the creation of "3" Armored Brigades plus the Special Ops Brigade "Lautaro" (created the past 26 of December with the dissolution of the Reinforced Regiment Nº22 “Lautaro”). The info about "3" Armored Brigades was supplied the last 14 of September by the Commandant in Chief of the Chilean Army (Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer).

Second, the quantity of Leopards 2A4 bought is 118 without any more contracts announced for more units at the moment. Moreover I though that the Chilean Army was interested now on wheeled AFV (like the Centauro...) to give an armored fist to the new motorized units. They are put-off this interest to go for more Leo 2?
And AFAIK the YPR-765s are only 139 with ~400 M-113 in service and with around 100 Hummers. You have a Gap of ~150 Leos 2A4 & ~250 IFVs, and some hundreds of hummers to complete the 5 armored brigades announced by El Mercurio.

Third, also if we trust in the info said by the General Izurrieta to the Media, the last 31 of August, the reorganization plans included motorized and mountain brigades, and El Mercurio not do any mention about them. Where are those? Perhaps have been canceled? I don't think so, but if you have any new data please, said us.

IMHO, the info of El Mercurio, is better to be taken with a grain of salt; while we remain without any official source (Chilean Army, Defence Ministry, etc... ) to verify the news.

Speech of the Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer (September 14, 2006)
http://www.ejercito.cl/admin/uploads/file_453d2f552cd68.doc?PHPSESSID=0d700e480d9a464a2 e0fed20a205b5e8

Speech of the Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer (August 31, 2006)
http://www.ejercito.cl/admin/uploads/file_453d2e130fd65.doc?PHPSESSID=6b7b9c9ec0fd7bd29 93f642b8f080b69

[TrangleC]

I suppose the theory went - Abrams is battle tested and the Leo isn't.
What do you mean with "battle" in this context? Shooting at old T-64 that have been abandoned by their crews when the first jets could be heard in the sky, rolling into cities, shooting at a few buildings and then pulling down a few Saddam statues and maybe rolling over a few civillian cars?
It you mean that with "battle", yes, the Abrams did that quite well i guess, but i wager that other tanks could have done that too.

[willb]

abrams tested in battle - 1991 war.
from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_sabre.htm
us VII corps accounted for 1300tanks, 1200ifv/apc, 285 artilley, 100 air defense systems, and captured 22,000 compared to total us losses of 7 abrams, 15 bradleys, 2 apc, and 1 apache.

[TrangleC]

abrams tested in battle - 1991 war.
from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_sabre.htm
us VII corps accounted for 1300tanks, 1200ifv/apc, 285 artilley, 100 air defense systems, and captured 22,000 compared to total us losses of 7 abrams, 15 bradleys, 2 apc, and 1 apache.
Sure, but look at the opponents... old russian tanks, bombed by the airforce for quite some time before the first Abrams crossed the border, demoralized troops, commanders who abandoned their troops on the first day of the war, troops who abandoned their tanks and equipment or just sat in their trenches, not firing a single shot and waiting for a chance to surrender.
They could have capturen a lot more than 22,000 if they wouldn't have chosen to burry those poor fuckers alife in their trenches.
The US military tradition to send the ground troops only after the airforce already has broken the enemy is certainly clever, but not very heroic and thus doesn't give the tanks much chance to prove their worth.
The whole thing was too one sided to be called a real battle. Under this conditions every modern MBT couldn't possibly have failed.

[willb]

please read the link on the site for chapter eight. combined arms doctrine is used by british, german, russians, and others. the british army and french air force and armies also took part in the 1991 war along with quite a few other countries. the iraqi equipment was definitely not first rate - the t72 export model being the best they had, nor was their training, but not all of them gave up or ran away, nor were all that many buried. a lot of them did run though. vii corps attacked west of the trenches and not through them. yes, most modern tanks would probably have done as well, if they were well trained and used combined arms. as it is though both the challenger and abrams have seen action, some of it quite intense. you cant't take losses fromenemy fire if the enemy is not shooting at you.

[Feña]

Interesting Feña, but I see some problems.

There always gona be some problems ... when you talk about military systems everyone has a different opinion ...

First, the info is from the newspaper El Mercurio, with many antecedents of inaccurate info (like occur with the Spanish Weaponry deals with Columbia). Do you have any official source to verify the info on the graphics? Because my last official info of the plans of reform of the Chilean Army (from September 2006) included the creation of "3" Armored Brigades plus the Special Ops Brigade "Lautaro" (created the past 26 of December with the dissolution of the Reinforced Regiment Nº22 “Lautaro”). The info about "3" Armored Brigades was supplied the last 14 of September by the Commandant in Chief of the Chilean Army (Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer).

I undestand your doubts, but the chilean miltary are always sending mixed signals ... but if you know how to read between the lines, its easy to break the code .... at this point you cant say there is not gona be five brigades, just that in this fase, they will create two in the north of Chile, after that, in four or five years, they will create the remaining brigade in the north and the brigades in the far south will replace their Leopard 1 for Leopard 2 and complete their TOEs with the same equipment of their sisters in the north ...

Second, the quantity of Leopards 2A4 bought is 118 without any more contracts announced for more units at the moment. Moreover I though that the Chilean Army was interested now on wheeled AFV (like the Centauro...) to give an armored fist to the new motorized units. They are put-off this interest to go for more Leo 2?

The number is quite interesting because it allow the army to create the first two heavy brigades and the training company in the Armoured Cavalry School of Quilota ....

You must keep in mind that we do not have the resouces of the US ARMY, so we can´t get everything in our wish list overnight, and we have a clean record of near 126 years of foreign peace, so the goal of replace our entire MBT fleet is not something that we want or MUST do right away, this process will take some time and in our point of view is better to keep our bucks and save them to take advantage of the future reductions of the european inventories ... right now the army are part of the Leopard Club and the countryes with surplus inventories knows that we have the will and the money to pay cash for the hardware, just remember that the swiss army has offer us another 93 L2 ... and the sale of that is just a political decision ... and as far as I know the germans and dutch are quite happy to sale their surplus harware for something more than 1 euro the piece (MIG 29 to Polland, ring any bells?) ...

And AFAIK the YPR-765s are only 139 with ~400 M-113 in service and with around 100 Hummers. You have a Gap of ~150 Leos 2A4 & ~250 IFVs, and some hundreds of hummers to complete the 5 armored brigades announced by El Mercurio.

Im glad that you get the numbers right, so again, there are not any hurryes in our part to complete the acquisition process, we dont have any threaths to our safety as a nation , so we can take the time to do inteligent purchases an to train the units with order and by the numbers .... and the Hummers are 200 by the way ... with another batch to the chilean marines ... so 200/5 = 40 right?

And you just cant change every MBT in any army overnight, because the crews needs time to get used to the new rides and to take full advantage of the new capabilityes, so i see a lot of sense in doing this change with care and taking some time to get it right ... besides, our 220 Leopard 1V still are one of the biggest dogs in this yard and cant be more than a challenge to any T55, TAM or SK 105 ... even the legendary peruvian T72 will have to show some respect for it ...

Third, also if we trust in the info said by the General Izurrieta to the Media, the last 31 of August, the reorganization plans included motorized and mountain brigades, and El Mercurio not do any mention about them. Where are those? Perhaps have been canceled? I don't think so, but if you have any new data please, said us.

Yep, you can´t just have armoured brigades in a contry with more than four thousand km of mountains in one frontier ... you need mountain and motorized brigades, in central Chile you will find the mountain brigades AND the motorized brigades, wich provides the strategic reserve for any theater ... its kind of difficult to take land from the enemy and retain it without grunts ... the L2 are fine machines but cannot make tactical miracles .... one good example of this infantry outfits is the Reinforced Infantry Regiment N° 1 “Buin”, craddle and pride of the chilean army, garrison? the city of Santiago, strength? about 1.200 troops , rides? MOWAG 6x6 APC ... AND they are now building up their TOEs and receiving more officers, NCOs and troops from the closed regiments ... get it?

IMHO, the info of El Mercurio, is better to be taken with a grain of salt; while we remain without any official source (Chilean Army, Defence Ministry, etc... ) to verify the news.

Well, get yourself a nice chair because usually the first official word of any new weapons acquisitions came when the deal is close, take a look at what has happened with the dutch F16, the L2 or even the M109 RUAG deals .... the chilean military are not a very media friendly bunch, but once when they have the goverment green light for a new system, they send short messages to the community with the help of some very specific journalist to have a feel of the social enviroment, if the announce dont raise a lot of noice, then they proceed, but if the situation is adverse or get too much attention, they keep the program quiet for a while ... what can I say .... this is the way things are usually done here.

And about having a "fair" battle :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , for me, a fair battle means that I get all my troops back alive and unarm, f**** the others :cool:

Bye

[swerve]

... and as far as I know the germans and dutch are quite happy to sale their surplus harware for something more than 1 euro the piece (MIG 29 to Polland, ring any bells?) ......
Bye

That was a one-off, a political gift to Poland. The exceptionally low price for Polands Leo 2s (ca €120 K each)was for the same reason. Greece got cheap Leo 2A4 (€270 million for 170 Leo 2A4 & 183 Leo 1A5, including refurbishment) only by paying full price for new Leo 2A6, & Spain the same. Finland paid ca €1 million each for its Leopard 2A4, including spares, ammo, etc.

The Bundeswehr needs every Euro cent it can get, & will charge as much as the traffic will bear, except where overridden by politicians. And they have no political reason to subsidise Chiles armed forces, & Chile isn't buying a couple of hundred of new Leopard 2A6. So sorry, no 1 Euro deals. :D

[Gladius]

I undestand your doubts, but the chilean miltary are always sending mixed signals ... but if you know how to read between the lines, its easy to break the code .

Woah! Wait a moment. Are you insinuating that the commander-in-chief of the Chilean Army was lying to its peers Generals and Admirals...

Feña, I can understand that the plans or priorities change at any moment, but to assume that an official of that rank in a democratic state as Chile lies publically, is something that I will never believe. That accusation is very serious and in justice if had happened the General Izurieta would be indictable by the Chilean Military Courts by violating the code and regulations in force in the Chilean Armed Forces.


right now the army are part of the Leopard Club and the countryes with surplus inventories knows that we have the will and the money to pay cash for the hardware...

Um, and you should remember that the copper bonanza (and the cash to Chilean Armed Forces by the Copper Law) is not eternal. Buf if you have the cash, why are you talking about 1€ deals...

just remember that the swiss army has offer us another 93 L2 ... and the sale of that is just a political decision ...

Now purchase Pz87s, better seek more Leo 2A4 from Netherland or German stocks. The swiss Pz87 have some minor differences with their brothers A4s around the world. If the you bought them you have to change the swiss mods to standardizing the entire fleet of Leo 2 on Chile. And we are talking with cash limits, because the Chilean Army have to buy (and modernize) hundreds of IFVs, Cavalry AFVs, AT-Missiles, Hummers... also, to complete with them the TOEs for your "5" Arm. Brigades and the Cav. & Mountain Brigades.


and as far as I know the germans and dutch are quite happy to sale their surplus harware for something more than 1 euro the piece (MIG 29 to Polland, ring any bells?) ...

No, my friend. The Poland deal, (Leo 2 included) was an exceptional thing, and weighted with the objective to able the Polish Army with a NATO inter-operating capable force for joint international deployments on mind.

The 1€ deals are very far of South America. Specially if allied UE & NATO countries have to pay millions € for any transfer or leasing from German/Netherland/Swiss surplus (Portugal, Greece, Finland, & Spain to name some) or take a peek to the figures discussed for the A4 on deals with Singapore and Turkey.


Im glad that you get the numbers right, so again, there are not any hurryes in our part to complete the acquisition process, we dont have any threaths to our safety as a nation , so we can take the time to do inteligent purchases an to train the units with order and by the numbers .... and the Hummers are 200 by the way ... with another batch to the chilean marines ... so 200/5 = 40 right?

Again, no man. Please, think about that. The Hummers bought by the Chilean Army are to all the new units and some services of the Army, not only for the future Armored Brigades. And only a reduced quantity have AT-Missile provision. A hundred available for the Arm. Brigades on pure AT/Scout roles was a personal and optimist prevision mine, if we examine with care the figures of the hummers contracted, and their configurations, for the Army, the figures could be even smaller.

As proof, a pic of some Hummers assigned to the Special Ops. Brigade "Lautaro":
http://www.ejercito.cl/admin/uploads/file_45913cec80336.jpg

The Hummers received by the Chilean Marines are for the Marines, not for the Army, by that without any influence on this question about the new Army units.

On a side note, IIRC only 100 of the 200 contracted have been received (last Oct, 21st by Valparaiso & Iquique ports). Could you tell us if the pending hundred have arrived? Thank you.

besides, our 220 Leopard 1V still are one of the biggest dogs in this yard and cant be more than a challenge to any T55, TAM or SK 105 ... even the legendary peruvian T72 will have to show some respect for it ...

Yeah, and that would be the logical course, two first line brigades with Leo 2 and the another one-three with the recently expanded fleet of Leo 1.

And that it is another point that reduces credibility to the El Mercurio article, why expand the fleet of Leo I with the recent purchases (and pay enough cash on them) if you have thought to concentrate your armor fist in those 5 brigades of Leo 2 and therefore to continue the acquisitions of 2A4 soon. That not make any sense for me.

About the Peruvians T-72, I put my opinion some messages ago.

Yep, you can´t just have armoured brigades in a contry with more than four thousand km of mountains in one frontier ... you need mountain and motorized brigades, in central Chile you will find the mountain brigades AND the motorized brigades, wich provides the strategic reserve for any theater ... its kind of difficult to take land from the enemy and retain it without grunts ... the L2 are fine machines but cannot make tactical miracles .... one good example of this infantry outfits is the Reinforced Infantry Regiment N° 1 “Buin”, craddle and pride of the chilean army, garrison? the city of Santiago, strength? about 1.200 troops , rides? MOWAG 6x6 APC ... AND they are now building up their TOEs and receiving more officers, NCOs and troops from the closed regiments ... get it?

Yup, but the predicted plans announced by the Army and the Department of Defense indicated a concentration of these units (regiments) in the new structure totally structured in Brigades and not as independent regimental formations. More or less on NATO full style, something again quite logical if we keep in mind that the reduction of predicted troops will leave the Chilean Army around 40.000 total troops. If the Chilean Army is thinking on expanding the number of Heavy Brigades with respect to the announced in September,they will have to cut the predicted figures of cavalry and mountain brigades. The number of available troops has not changed.
So I repeat my question: There is any information that aim toward the expansion of the Armored Units against those of cavalry and mountain? If not, the numbers will be a problem. The article of El Mercurio, said nothing about the other units, and in the graphic only appeared the Armored Brigades, the new Spec. Ops. Brigade and the Air Brigade. Where are the other Brigades? Why mention the S.O. Brigade and the Air Brigade and not the other planned?
IMHO the article is tendentious, lousy or in the best case with incomplete info, a typical case of El Mercurio.

On the other hand, we have to recall that for these new cavalry and mountain brigades have to do some acquisitions to reinforce or complete their capacities, that would be on new vehicle or system acquisition basis. And that would diminish the acquisition capacity of material for other units. I would see a logical movement, if the Chilean Army have changed the plans, that they forgo those purchases. And with the cash saved go shopping for MBTs, IFVs, etc... to the Armored Brigades. Perhaps is that the situation Feña?

A last question. Do you know what missile has been (or will be) selected to be fitted on the Hummers? Because AFAIK the Chilean Army have the TOW, MAPATS, Spike and Milan in service. IIRC some YPR-765 were fitted with the Spike, by that, the logical movement (but not the cheapest) IMHO would be put the Rafael Spike MR/LR on the Hummers.
Any info about this, Feña?

[Feña]

Hey!! Back in the road .. here some pictures of the chilean military, most of it came from Marq and Inchelevtraru (copyright respected :D :D )

[Waylander]

Are there any infos about how satisfied the army is with their new toys? :)

Any problems due to heat, humidity or high areas of operation?

[Feña]

It´s too soon to tell but so far so good ... I will ask some folks of another parts of the country (different climates).... there are rumors about a new batch of german equipment ... (Marder / Gepard / Phz 2000) but nothing clear yet ....

Another pictures of the new equipment ...

[Waylander]

PzH2000?

Isn't it a bit too expensive for Chile? I would expect them to buy zeroed M109Gs but no PzH2000.
Nevertheless buying PzH2000, hopefully with the whole ADLER network and COBRA fire finder radar, would push Chiles artillery capabilities far ahead of everybody else in the region and making artillery operations against their forces very costly adventures.

[Feña]

The good thing is that the high command didnt forget the grunts .... (this ones belongs to Marq) ...

[Feña]

Sorry I didnt see your previous post, yep, we all know that getting some Phz 2000 will be expensive, as far as i know it wasn´t for sale ... but the CJE (Army commander) went to Germany and came back with a wide grin, and now the brass that generally knows about new acquistions are more misterious than usual ... but always are somebody who spill the beans ... so as I say, there is nothing confirmed, but for sure there are a lot of noise in the enviroment ...

[Waylander]

Ok, thanks you for the infos. :)

We just have to wait.

[Feña]

Yep, I know it sucks but we are kind of used to it here :rolleyes: :rolleyes: but the confidence is high.

The army has been stashing their bucks for a while, so money cannot be an issue (but I´m not saying that the MoD will throw away the money in the american style :rolleyes: :rolleyes: just that when the decission were made we will get the system) ... the other significant purchases was the spike missile systems (50 reported launchers and 1000 missiles (MR and LR)) and the recently finished program wich selected the medium helicopter (Cougars).

The other significant program is the joint Army / Air Force Air Defense system, with the israeli Spyder, a norwegian or sweden system (I didn´t remember the name of it) and a Hummer / AIM 120 systems been considered ...

Bye

[Feña]

It Seems that the Aussie Army as turn down a dutch offer for 18 brand new PzH2000 artillery systems ...

May this ones be the PzH´s for Chile?

It could be possible since the Dutch as already sold to us fighters (F16), Frigates (M´s and L´s Types) and 200+ Leopards 1 ....

[Rossiman]

Hmm, wouldn't the Italian C1 Ariete have been better for there terrain?

[eckherl]

Hmm, wouldn't the Italian C1 Ariete have been better for there terrain?

Why would the Ariete be better suited for terrian issues in Chile. :unknown

[Waylander]

I also never heard that the Ariete has some kind of special suspension which would it make more suitable.

Not to talk of the price.

One can hardly get more bang for the buck than when going for surplus Leopard IIA4.
There are also several upgrade possibilities available for the Leos as well as a good spare part availability due to the many customers and ongoing development.

[Izzy1]

I also never heard that the Ariete has some kind of special suspension which would it make more suitable.

Not to talk of the price.

One can hardly get more bang for the buck than when going for surplus Leopard IIA4.
There are also several upgrade possibilities available for the Leos as well as a good spare part availability due to the many customers and ongoing development.


Waylander, eckherl hold on, can you answer?
Sorry, I'm just worried...

But anyone wondered why Chile want's their Leopard IIA4 MBT's? Their US and Dutch F-16s? Their 3xUK Type 23 Frigates and 2xFrench Scorpene Class SSKs?

A 40,000 strong fully proffesional Army. Compared to Brazil's 280,000 Conscipt force.

What are the building up to?

[swerve]

Hmm, wouldn't the Italian C1 Ariete have been better for there terrain?

1) Why?
2) None for sale.

[Waylander]

They could reopen the line just for Chile.

Would be defenitely a cheap decision... :D

@Izzy1
I think the Chileneans are interested in their own defence and take this seriously.
A proffesional force of 40.000 soldiers needs good equipment to stand a chance against much more numerous potential enemies.
I don't think the neighbours if Chile have to worry about it.
These buys are not enough to allow big offensive operations against the neighbours but would give any attacker a big headache.

[swerve]

Waylander, eckherl hold on, can you answer?
Sorry, I'm just worried...

But anyone wondered why Chile want's their Leopard IIA4 MBT's? Their US and Dutch F-16s? Their 3xUK Type 23 Frigates and 2xFrench Scorpene Class SSKs?

A 40,000 strong fully proffesional Army. Compared to Brazil's 280,000 Conscipt force.

What are the building up to?

Izzy, I can't see the point of any military comparisons between Chile & Brazil. They have no quarrels (their current governments get on rather well), & no border. Oh, and Brazil has more regulars (total numbers) in its armed forces than Chile does - 60% regular, 40% conscript.

Argentina, Bolivia & Chile are the only potential enemies for Chile, & with their current arms & state of readiness, none is any threat.

Chile won't start anything under its current, or any foreseeable elected government. Nothing to gain & a great deal to lose.

If the armed forces overthrow the government again (which they don't have an excuse for, unlike last time), that would immediately stop all its current arms deliveries, & any spares. No Cold War, not in the GWOT . . .

[Feña]

Well, at the end we did receive our new cans ...

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/6625/leo2a4ip2.jpg

The Ariete is too expensive and for our level of theat (TAM, SK 105, T55) the L2 A4 is the most cost effective solution

This is a good day for the donkey riders of our army (maybe some is lost in the translation :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

Cheers

[Waylander]

Baaaah, what a colour. ;)

[swerve]

...The Ariete is too expensive ...
Cheers

Since you'd have to pay for re-opening the production line, & pay for brand-new tanks instead of secondhand, I'm sure would be expensive.

[Feña]

The three brigades of the north will be capable of create a good show for our brothers of Perú, Bolivia and Argentina (we dont have any disputes with them, but ;) ) ... and if the purchase of the Gepards and Marders come to a succesful end it´s gona be like seeing the "Afrika Korps Reloaded" ... all german equipment on desert cammo .... HELL YEAH!!, what and awsome view will that be :D :D

That is another rummor here, about the acquisition of 30 Gepard AAA systems and a FIRST batch of at least 100 marders ... if the river sounds ... any of you had any intel about this?

Bye

[Rossiman]

I also never heard that the Ariete has some kind of special suspension which would it make more suitable.

Not to talk of the price.

One can hardly get more bang for the buck than when going for surplus Leopard IIA4.
There are also several upgrade possibilities available for the Leos as well as a good spare part availability due to the many customers and ongoing development.

The Ariete actually has a very good suspension system. Last night i created a tank thread, only to find out you have to have a certain amount of post's to post url's. :lul

[Waylander]

What kind of thread did you want to start?

If you want to give us a ling just write - instead of .
Like www-google-com.

The other members are then able to add the dots on their own.

But remember simple this vs that threads are not allowed... ;)

What kind of special suspension does the Ariete has?

[Feña]

Sorry, I'm just worried...

But anyone wondered why Chile want's their Leopard IIA4 MBT's? Their US and Dutch F-16s? Their 3xUK Type 23 Frigates and 2xFrench Scorpene Class SSKs?

A 40,000 strong fully proffesional Army. Compared to Brazil's 280,000 Conscipt force.

What are the building up to?

Well I must say that this post disturbed me, this is so because Chile has been one of the keepers of the peace in this part of the earth, our country has a proud history of more that 127 years of foreign peace (yes, we did have a civil war and a coupla of coups BUT THAT DOESNT COUNT ;) ;) ), this cannot be matched by none of our neighbours so when they claim that Chile is "up to something" it make my laugh ... but then I had to remember that we live in the continent of the "magic reality" where anything could be ... like cats chasing dogs :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And if you really look in to the chilean acquisitions, you cannot find anything THAT new or sofisticated ... the reality of the matter is when the european armed services began to sale the surplus materials we did have the funds to take advantage of the situation, that is hardly part of an "evil plan to attack Brasil", besides the ocasion calls for a profound transformation in our military, from a "territorial army" with lots and lots of conscript infantry to a modern army heavily mechanized but more small in size (the Chilean Army as closed 22 :( Regiments in the last 8 years), and that is because it has been proved again and again that an infantry or concript army doesnt stand a chance against a proffesional enemy.

Cheers

[Rossiman]

What kind of thread did you want to start?

If you want to give us a ling just write - instead of .
Like www-google-com.

The other members are then able to add the dots on their own.

But remember simple this vs that threads are not allowed... ;)

What kind of special suspension does the Ariete has?

Well it has a Torsion bar just like the Leopard. But the tank is made for mountainous and rocky enviroment's just like Chilean is. It has the ability to adapt to any urban enviroment and it is very much like the Merkeva in a sense. The 120mm Smoothbore gun is a beast, it's the same design of the Abrams. Crew safety is the number 1 importance in the tank, the armor is made up of state of the art materials. I have nothing bad against the Leopard in fact i think it is one of the best tanks in the world, but the C1 Ariete would be better off in there enviroment.

[eckherl]

Well it has a Torsion bar just like the Leopard. But the tank is made for mountainous and rocky enviroment's just like Chilean is. It has the ability to adapt to any urban enviroment and it is very much like the Merkeva in a sense. The 120mm Smoothbore gun is a beast, it's the same design of the Abrams. Crew safety is the number 1 importance in the tank, the armor is made up of state of the art materials. I have nothing bad against the Leopard in fact i think it is one of the best tanks in the world, but the C1 Ariete would be better off in there enviroment.

The Arietes suspension is nothing different than a Leo 2 series or M1 series.

[eckherl]

Waylander, eckherl hold on, can you answer?
Sorry, I'm just worried...

But anyone wondered why Chile want's their Leopard IIA4 MBT's? Their US and Dutch F-16s? Their 3xUK Type 23 Frigates and 2xFrench Scorpene Class SSKs?

A 40,000 strong fully proffesional Army. Compared to Brazil's 280,000 Conscipt force.

What are the building up to?

Simply that they do not want to be outclassed by some of her neighbors. Also the cooperation between Chile and the U.S seems to be quite strong.

[Feña]

And the armour is not something from another world, in fact there are reports that the thickness in the Ariete is kind of thin, this partially compensated by the good ballistic shape of the vehicle ....

Besides, why adopt a vehicle operated by just one country, when the Leopard Club offers the development of joint programs of research and improvement, etc, etc ...

And there are that little thing ... the cost, the L2 A4 CH as a reported cost of US$800.000 the piece ¿how much cost a brand new Ariete?

And finally, the "tank country" in Chile are in the far parts of the country (northern Atacama desert facing Perú and Bolivia and Patagonia facing the argentinian pampa) this places are flat and largelly unpopulated ... so why buy a MBT for urban or mountain enviroments?

Many questions ..

[Rossiman]

The Arietes suspension is nothing different than a Leo 2 series or M1 series.

LOL, thats what i just said....

[eckherl]

LOL, thats what i just said....

No, you made the statement that it is specially designed for mountain terrian and I am making the statement that there is nothing special about it.

[Waylander]

Well it has a Torsion bar just like the Leopard. But the tank is made for mountainous and rocky enviroment's just like Chilean is. It has the ability to adapt to any urban enviroment and it is very much like the Merkeva in a sense. The 120mm Smoothbore gun is a beast, it's the same design of the Abrams. Crew safety is the number 1 importance in the tank, the armor is made up of state of the art materials. I have nothing bad against the Leopard in fact i think it is one of the best tanks in the world, but the C1 Ariete would be better off in there enviroment.

What is so different what makes an Ariete better suited for mountain and urban environment? Yourself stated that the suspension is nothing special...
What makes an Ariete more similar to a Merkava than an Abrams, Challi or Leo?
You have an idea what kind of 120mm the Abrams uses? Just a hint, Rheinmetall...
The armor of all modern MBTs is not plain normal steel...

Maybe you should start posting some facts. Some more information is alsways better than some unsupported vague statements.
You could also address the problems of buying Arietes some members here raised.
This, together with stopping to write in fat letters (looks like you are shouting), would help the discussion.

[kato]

Back to the original topic:

Germany handed over the first of 140 total Leopard 2A4 to Chile on November 14th in a ceremony in Germany.
The 140 tanks will equip three battalions of the Chilean Army, all operational from 2010 on.

In a follow-on ceremony, German Inspector of the Navy, Lieutenant General Budde, and the Chilean Army Commander, General Izurieta, signed the "joint declaration on Training and Logistics Support for the Chilean Army". This declaration was part of the contract, and will involve German troops being sent to Chile from 2008 on to facilitate and support Chilean training, in particular on their new tanks.

Official Bundeswehr Press Release (in German) (http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLNzSLtzAIA8lB2c76kX DRoJRUfW99X4_83FT9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQBALId7/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfMTZfOEkw?yw_contentURL=%2F C1256F870054206E%2FW278YGGV502INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp )

[Waylander]

General Budde is Inspector of the Army and not of the Navy. ;)

Yeah, I know I'm picky... :D

[kato]

Mmm, i have no idea how the Navy slipped in there actually :unknown

And yeah, he's of course Army. Will be for another two years, if things go according to his wishes - the MoD wants him to retire (he has a... not very MoD-accomodating opinion regarding power distribution away from the services), while he wants to pull through until mandatory retirement at 62; same thing for the Luftwaffe Inspector btw, who's also turning 60.

[robsta83]

What position is Inspector? Chief of Army?
Cheers Rob

[Waylander]

I always thought well of him and met him twice. He sometimes has the ability to speak of what some guys in the MoD don't want to hear.

[Waylander]

What position is Inspector? Chief of Army?
Cheers Rob

Jup, highest soldier in the Heer (Army).
In German it is called Inspekteur des Heeres.

The highest soldier is than the Generalinspekteur (General Inspector).
This would be for example the Chief of Staff in the US.

[Feña]

Kato and Waylander, since you both seems to be germans I want to ask if there are any news about a possible sale of Marders and Gepards to Chile, over here one of the main news papers make a note confirming the operation ... the numbers will be a first batch of 100 Marders 1A3 and 30 Gepards ... knowing that the army is in extreme "shy" with its programs this is almost an unofficial confirmation more if you consider that the journalist who sign the note is not a defense especialist but a political one ... so he probably cannot differenciate a truck from a tank and is unlikely that can came up with this on his own :rolleyes:

The Marders make sence to me since it can support the L2 (and there seems to be a huge stock to give away) and the Gepards ... hmmmm well is better have and dont need it than need it and dont have it ... and can provide close support for the mechanized force and engage low flying helos and planes (the peruvians had the ZSU 23-4 and they love it).

Any thoughts about the next steps that the chileans need to make?

[robsta83]

Jup, highest soldier in the Heer (Army).
In German it is called Inspekteur des Heeres.

The highest soldier is than the Generalinspekteur (General Inspector).
This would be for example the Chief of Staff in the US.

Gotchya :)
Cheers Rob

[kato]

What position is Inspector? Chief of Army?
Cheers Rob

Sort of, yeah.

Composition of the highest echelon in Germany is:
#1: Defense Minister (Jung, civilian): CiC of Bw in peacetime (wartime: transfer to Chancellor)
#2: General Inspector of the Bundeswehr (Gen Schneiderhan): military advisor to def minister and gov, military joint CiC of Bundeswehr
#3: Inspectors of the...: overall command of their respective forces
...Army (Lt Gen Budde)
...Airforce (Lt Gen Stieglitz)
...Navy (Vice Adm Nolting)
...Joint Support Forces (Vice Adm Kühn; also Deputy Gen Insp)
...Medical Service (Gen Staff Dr Nakath)

[kato]

Kato and Waylander, since you both seems to be germans I want to ask if there are any news about a possible sale of Marders and Gepards to Chile, over here one of the main news papers make a note confirming the operation ... the numbers will be a first batch of 100 Marders 1A3 and 30 Gepards ...

I don't think we have any Gepards left to give to Chile really... the ~90 left in the Army is all that remains really, and all those are planned to remain in place for about the next 5-10 years.
Maybe from another source? Netherlands probably, i'd guess.

Marders - haven't heard anything. You'd get them for free though probably, there's like 1500 of them laying around here rusting :rolleyes:

[Waylander]

If one keeps the Marders running (They are whored down a little bit...;) ) they are for sure a good supplement to the armored formations.
The "keep them running" is actually something one should worry about. They will need some rebuilding if you want to have fun with them.

What kind of ATGM does Chile has in service?

IMHO it shouldn't be hard to adopt any ATGM one wants onto the mount of the MILAN on the Marder.

I would also expect the Netherlands to be a possible source of Gepards.
They are throwing away their stuff even faster than we do and also much newer toys.
Are the dutch Gepards upgraded?

What kind of SPH does Chile operates?
There are plenty of M109s available in Europe for sale.
And some of them have been modernised just recently and also feature things like a longer barrel. For example Switzerland wants to get rid of some of theirs as well as we do.
The Netherlands are even offering nearly new PzH2000 but this would be a bit overkill and I expect it to be too expensive.

It is still heavy metal shopping time in Europe and if one wants some fairly modern western stuff for not that much money its the time to buy it.

[swerve]

... it has been proved again and again that an infantry or concript army doesnt stand a chance against a proffesional enemy.

Cheers

Depends on the professional army & the conscript army. Israeli conscripts proved themselves able to fight Jordanian professional soldiers in 1967 & 1973. Some African professional armies have failed to distinguish themselves against conscript opponents. It isn't an absolute rule.

[Stimpy75]

All the dutch Gepards will be replaced by the 18 (!) Aselsan KMS(Stingers) mounted on the Fennek....so all the dutch Gepards are ready to be sold off....

[Feña]

Well, the ATGM here is the Spike family, and the adaptation of this munition to the Marder was one of my concerns ... about the SPH we had some ex swiss M109 RUAG (longer barrels, the works :rolleyes: ) ..

The netherland already have sold us four frigates, 18 F16 and the 200+ Leopard 1 so it could be a source for the new equipment (Gepards etc) ... but AFAIK the informed source will be Germany, triangular operation? maybe for maintainance & upgrade? ...

It´s curious that you mentioned the Pzh 2000 since that is the other thing that has been reported as been looked by the Chilean Army, and since the netherland deal with the aussies come to nothing, some of this great machines may be available for sale ...

About the Marders, I think that the profit for germany will be the overhaul and upgrade since we are buying only A class vehicles ... and our actual vehicles (M113 A2 and YPR 765) cannot follow the L2 the way we want ...

The last but not the least point is that TODAY the chilean armed forces has in the fourth account (the money for new equipment :) ) anywhere between 2000 and 2500 US millions ... and by law, that amount can only be expend in new equipment, but the problem is that the funds for operation is another issue and for that reason we cannot go and buy all at once because we will end with a ton of stored cans :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[kato]

... but AFAIK the informed source will be Germany, triangular operation? maybe for maintainance & upgrade? ...
Presumably, as "in" lately, Dutch vehicles refurbished by German companies then. I.e. KMWeg/Rheinmetall would buy back the Gepards from the Netherlands, refurbish them, then export them. Germany would need to approve the sale (since outside NATO) anyway.
Well, you might get some goodies out of it. AHEAD-enabled guns, or a new FCS, for example.