cheap 4th generation fighters

[zoolander]

There is a flood of MRCA 4th generation fighters out on the market. To the untrained they all look the same. emp. all delta and canard style. Which of the following planes is better please supply info. I am only including the cheaper planes.

J-10
Grifen
Su-27
F-16

i will provide price and info later.

[chrishorne]

There is a flood of MRCA 4th generation fighters out on the market. To the untrained they all look the same. emp. all delta and canard style. Which of the following planes is better please supply info. I am only including the cheaper planes.

J-10
Grifen
Su-27
F-16

i will provide price and info later.

Like most things it depends on your definition of better. Each of those aircraft was designed to fit the specific needs of their country.

A perfect example of this is the Gripen, Its very small by modern fighter standards (way smaller than any of the others you have listed), cheap to run on a single F-404 and cheap to maintain. It was designed to be worked on by conscripts with minimal training. And then to still replace 5 different varients of the Awesome Viggen with a single aircraft. As a complete weapons system it is an awesome achievement and a very dangerous aircraft.

The Su-27 is just in a different class than the others on your list, as a Airframe it has few peers. It has a massive range, with massive engines and I suspect massive engineering costs. Completely different beast than the gripen especially. It was designed for an entirely different role for Russia and over time has been modified to perform strike roles as well as Anti-air or in the case of the Su-34 a completely new role - tacticial bomber based on the Su-27 airframe. Basically its a Horses for courses thing to weather its the best, pick the situation, the mission and then compare.

[hovercraft]

f-16 (block 50/52 $45 million above) and su-27 are not cheap enugh, only cheap 4rth generation fighter is only Gripen and then J-10, but jf-17 and maybe LCA are to coming as cheap 4rth generation fighters.

[manofpeace]

i agree Su-27,f-16 cannot be called cheap but jf-17 and LCA are still in development stage so they cannot be called as fighter of today. So the list is J-10
Grifen

[ajaybhutani]

i agree Su-27,f-16 cannot be called cheap but jf-17 and LCA are still in development stage so they cannot be called as fighter of today. So the list is J-10
Grifen
whats the Flyaway cost of Gripen?? and J10?

[ajaybhutani]

i choose j-10,for i am chinese
that doesnt prove that its cheaper than others like F16.. please read the title of the topic. its not about which fighter china prefers but which is cheaper.

[tphuang]

I'm pretty sure the fly away cost of J-10 is in the (20 to 25 million range right now). PLAAF is paying no more than 25 million each.

As for Gripen:
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft05/FRH0502/FR0502e.htm
seems to say that the leasing agreement is 640 million euro for 14 Gripens without even including weapons and such.
http://www.gripen.com/pressreleases/051114/southafricangripenmakesitsmaidenflight.4.863591074 60425368000559.html
In 1999, South Africa ordered 28 Gripen fighters (19 single-seaters and 9 two-seaters) and 24 BAE Systems’ Hawk advanced jet trainers. The Gripen aircraft, which will be delivered from 2008 onwards, will be based at AFB Makhado in South Africa’s northern Limpopo Province. The combined contract for the 28 Gripen and 24 Hawk aircraft is valued at US$2.2-billion

Not as cheap as I thought. I guess anything that gets exported will get its price bumped.

[ajaybhutani]

I'm pretty sure the fly away cost of J-10 is in the (20 to 25 million range right now). PLAAF is paying no more than 25 million each.

As for Gripen:
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft05/FRH0502/FR0502e.htm
seems to say that the leasing agreement is 640 million euro for 14 Gripens without even including weapons and such.
http://www.gripen.com/pressreleases/051114/southafricangripenmakesitsmaidenflight.4.863591074 60425368000559.html
In 1999, South Africa ordered 28 Gripen fighters (19 single-seaters and 9 two-seaters) and 24 BAE Systems’ Hawk advanced jet trainers. The Gripen aircraft, which will be delivered from 2008 onwards, will be based at AFB Makhado in South Africa’s northern Limpopo Province. The combined contract for the 28 Gripen and 24 Hawk aircraft is valued at US$2.2-billion

Not as cheap as I thought. I guess anything that gets exported will get its price bumped.
quite amazingly gripen is more expensive than even the latest su30's. normally people get decieved by its small size and start believing that its cheaper.( of course its cheaper than other european planes like ef2000/rafale but in return it not even anywhere near them in capability.
its quite a good news if J10s costs only this much but then why would plaaf buy JF17.. are they still commited to buying 200 of jf17's

[BilalK]

Not as cheap as I thought. I guess anything that gets exported will get its price bumped.
However aren't initial orders always more expensive than follow-on orders? Remember that both Hungary and South Africa have to pay for the development of infrastructure, training and what not for the Gripens. Plus the numbers they have ordered them in are quite small (28 for S.Africa and 14 for Hungary); so the overall unit cost will likewise be pretty high. And not a lot of Gripens were even produced in the first place; the initial prices of this aircraft will probably go up if Sweden decides to cut its order.

Assuming South Africa and/or Hungary will place follow-on orders of Gripen, the overall price of the aircraft will be lower.

[chrishorne]

However aren't initial orders always more expensive than follow-on orders? Remember that both Hungary and South Africa have to pay for the development of infrastructure, training and what not for the Gripens. Plus the numbers they have ordered them in are quite small (28 for S.Africa and 14 for Hungary); so the overall unit cost will likewise be pretty high. And not a lot of Gripens were even produced in the first place; the initial prices of this aircraft will probably go up if Sweden decides to cut its order.

Assuming South Africa and/or Hungary will place follow-on orders of Gripen, the overall price of the aircraft will be lower.

yip makes sense. also the ongoing costs are important too. After all thats the primary reason the f-14 bit the dust early - it was taking 50? man hrs to maintain it for every hr it was in the air. this is one area where the gripen should in theory dominate - it was designed to be cheap to run and operate - most maintance can be done by conscripts in the swedish air force, not to mention the state of the art (linked!) simulators that are available for it.

[tphuang]

quite amazingly gripen is more expensive than even the latest su30's. normally people get decieved by its small size and start believing that its cheaper.( of course its cheaper than other european planes like ef2000/rafale but in return it not even anywhere near them in capability.
its quite a good news if J10s costs only this much but then why would plaaf buy JF17.. are they still commited to buying 200 of jf17's
yeah, the infrastructure+training+other stuff really drive up the per unit pricing too. Even the CAC F-7s cost 16+ million after the training+missiles+other stuff. Also, I'm sure SA paid a little extra for the integration of their own missiles onto Gripen.

I've always looked at JF-17 as a fighter that plaaf never wanted, but will probably be forced to purchase to lower the cost of the program. I'm guessing J-10's cost is probably twice that of JF-17. It all really depends on how many export orders this thing gets.

[BilalK]

No matter how expensive JF-17 will end up being the PAF will still buy it because it is the only definite fighter that will definitely enter PAF service; the F-16s have not even been stuffed into the pipeline yet. Although if China does intend to export the JF-17 to say Bangladesh or some mid-African country then the PLAAF may be forced to buy quite a number of JF-17s; I would not be surprised of the PAF would be forced to bump its 150 to 200 or even 250 as well.

Although J-10 will cost as twice as much JF-17 - do remember the money China spent on this fighter and the manpower costs it takes to actually build them. In the end the J-10 will still be financially cheaper than its Western counterparts like F-16 Block-52 or Gripen. Plus China still requires like 500 to even 1000 J-10s to make up the main workhorse of its fleet.

[type 209]

how much does an su-27 cost

[MIGleader]

Nowadays, its not really individual cost, but the entire contract deal, which includes trainers, munitions, spares...
You could buy maybe 15-20 upgraded su-27SMK's for a billion dollars.
Are you all forgetting the mig-29?

[type 209]

i heard that the mig-29 is supposed to be as good as the f-15 now this seems pretty untrue to me but i dont know enough about aircraft to tell so is this true?

[LancerMc]

In certain aspects it could be said the latest version of the MiG-29 (now defined by MiG as the MiG-35) is more advance then the F-15. The MiG-35 will be considerably more agile in dogfighting then F-15, this is due to an all aspect thrust vectoring nozzles. The MiG's use of IR guided missiles is still more advance then the F-15, but thats about all the advantages it has.

Also if you want to compare the MiG-29/35 with the F-15C, the MiG has considerably better ground attack capabilities. Though in comparison with the F-15E, the MiG would lose hands down. Minding the fact that the F-15E fitted with AAM's, is just as good dogfighter as the F-15C.

The MiG suffers in other aspects to the F-15 including service life, maintainability, realibilty, radar, range, and data links. Some of those gaps are considerably smaller then others.

[tphuang]

In certain aspects it could be said the latest version of the MiG-29 (now defined by MiG as the MiG-35) is more advance then the F-15. The MiG-35 will be considerably more agile in dogfighting then F-15, this is due to an all aspect thrust vectoring nozzles. The MiG's use of IR guided missiles is still more advance then the F-15, but thats about all the advantages it has.

Also if you want to compare the MiG-29/35 with the F-15C, the MiG has considerably better ground attack capabilities. Though in comparison with the F-15E, the MiG would lose hands down. Minding the fact that the F-15E fitted with AAM's, is just as good dogfighter as the F-15C.

The MiG suffers in other aspects to the F-15 including service life, maintainability, realibilty, radar, range, and data links. Some of those gaps are considerably smaller then others.
Put AIM-9X on F-15 and you got a better IR guided missile than R-73 with the more advanced imaged IR seeker + being more digital and greater range.

[EnigmaNZ]

Where it is confusing is costs quoted, in one place we see unit cost, another cost for x aircraft + whatever and it is a lot higher as it covers training and a lifetime of maintainance. From what I have seen, these cost can add 200% to the cost, so a fleet of 10 F-16s' with a unit cost of $45 million would probably cost about $1.5 billion or so. Some prices I have seen run from the J-10 at about $20 million or so depending on equipment chosen, to the Grippen at about $35 mil, the F-16 at $45 mil, to the S-27 at a similar level. However if you look up some recent F-16 sales, you will see different countries pay widely varying prices, some get their F-16s for as low as $27 mil each.

Maintainance cost too are important, if your western engine needs overhauling every 2000 hours, compared to 300 hours for a similar russian engine, thats a big expence over the aircrafts life, probably requiring a hanger of spare engines. So really comparing apples with oranges to just quote unit costs to find the cheapest fighter. I'd probably go with the Gripen, roughly in the middle for up front costs, but over the years costing a lot less to keep in the air. At the end of 25 years, total costs may even be less than the J-10 over that same time period, if the J-10 needs several engine changes in that time.

[meatball88]

I don't think I will call any of these aircraft 4th generation. maybe some of these may come close, but no close enough. for example, one of the criteria for being a 4th generation is low-observability and a plane like Su-27 with massive tail fins are definitely NOT.
Also, these planes are not what you would call cheap (except the Gripen or even the J-10). Su-27 and F-16 in particular are very expensive to make and THEN the defence contracters make an ABSOLUTE KILLING selling these machines.

[chinawhite]

For engine hours the AL-31FN is 1500hours while a AL-31F is 1000hours

[tphuang]

For engine hours the AL-31FN is 1500hours while a AL-31F is 1000hours
hmm, those engines delivered for J-10 never lasted that long, I can tell you that! The engines for flankers work out to be just as bad.

That's part of the reason why China is so desperate for its own engines.

[hovercraft]

f-15 is not cheaper. And what you think about mig-29 SMT, i don't know about its price.

[Ramjetmissile]

f-15 is not cheaper. And what you think about mig-29 SMT, i don't know about its price.What about the F-15T it aint cheap. Apparently she has all the fabulous component in it.Armed with Aim-9X

[Alphonse]

is the LCA 4th gen?

[LancerMc]

While the LCA project has occurred during the period of 4th Gen fighters, I don't think it will be able to meet the capabilities of plentiful aircraft like the Gripen and F-16 for the foreseeable future.

Plus will India export the aircraft to other countries, since it was designed as an local built replacement for their MiG-21 fleet.

[Occum]

For engine hours the AL-31FN is 1500hours while a AL-31F is 1000hours

Anyone know where the AL-41F engine is at?

How about the thrust rating?

I am getting conflicting reports from searches!

:confused:

[tphuang]

Anyone know where the AL-41F engine is at?

How about the thrust rating?

I am getting conflicting reports from searches!

:confused:
you are getting conflicting report because AL-41F hasn't been developed yet. I remember the spec was set at 175kN, let's see if Salyut can achieve that. The thrust rating for AL-41F1 (which supposedly is ready for su-35s) was speculated to be 140kN or 145kN or even more than that. I'm guessing the lower value is probably the safer bet.

[410Cougar]

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the unit price would go down if Hungary/SA bought more planes. Based on their economies, especially that of Hungary, don't be looking for them to buy any more jets. They can barely afford to put the ones they're purchasing into the air.

As for those who consider purchasing an SU-27, think of the maintenance costs and then decide if its still worth the purchase. Everyone always wants the best, but when you realise just how much support work goes into an airframe, it sometimes just doesn't make sense.

If people want multi role, why not start picking up F/A-18 C/D's from the US, Canada, Australia and Switzerland in the next 5-10 years? Good airframe, cheap, decent avionics packages and not that many hours on the frames...well, maybe not the US airframes...but you get what I mean.

Attila

[J.K Nilsson]

The Gripen isn´t a cheap air craft. But it´s cheaper both to buy and operate than the mighty Viggen. Only South Africa among the customers are bying their airframes, Cz and Hu are leasing their fleet, with some support of both servicemen (officers) and ground equipment from the Swedish Air Force.

The Hu were supposed to lease our old trench 1 Gripens. The software was ready to be loaded onto the computer to display the text in english instead of Swedish. The Hu changed their minds and wanted the EBS-variant. So these airframes was scrapped and the vings, canards and fin was reinforced and reused with new airframes. So they are getting brand new Gripens and they are supposed to buy them after the leasing period are over.

The Cz will most probably seek for other alternatives at the end of the leasing period to get the grippens cheaper. That country must be used to conclude deals with the Sovjet Union since they are that careful to inspect the ground equipment that are going south to them.

Regards,

J.K Nilsson

[turin]

Some prices for the Gripen are indeed very interesting. I remember some pretty cheap offers recently but I would take the guess that it was more due to Saabs/BAEs skill with calculations/offsets/whatever than to real price advantage.
And of course there was the austrian competition where the Gripen came in pretty expensive where they thought, they could build upon their long-term relations with Austria.

[J.K Nilsson]

And of course there was the austrian competition where the Gripen came in pretty expensive where they thought, they could build upon their long-term relations with Austria.
The development of the EBS Gripen has been already paid for by the SwAF. The planes for other customers can be really cheap. There are mostly OTS components in Gripen and belive me the come cheap.

Regards,

J.K Nilsson

[Gaenth]

Hi everyone. I would like to know your thoughts as to why countries like Chile or Greece are buying new F-16s instead of Grippens which to me are ideal to replace F-5s, Mirages or older F-16s.

[LancerMc]

There are a number of reasons including the fact the U.S. and Lockheed Martin are pressing for major sales of the F-16 to keep another fighter aircraft line open in the U.S.

Plus with the sale of F-16's get the chance to buy the most advance American ground attack muntions like JDAM's. Though eventually I am sure the Gripen will be able to carry GPS muntions.

[J.K Nilsson]

Plus with the sale of F-16's get the chance to buy the most advance American ground attack muntions like JDAM's. Though eventually I am sure the Gripen will be able to carry GPS muntions.
The problem isn´t the integration of new weapons. The problem could be the customers when they arn´t allowed to by the armament from the US.

Regards,

J.K Nilsson

[tphuang]

Interesting enough, I recently just read a report of an interview with the L-15 (a new Chinese trainer) developer who said that the cost of FC-1 for plaaf is only 10 million US dollar each. And at the same time, the cost of an advanced trainer like L-15 can be as cheap as 12 million US dollar each. If we are looking at cheap 4th generation fighters, FC-1 would definitely fit the profile. Of course, export versions would cost more, but the per unit cost even after training program, missiles and other stuff is probably no more than 20 million US dollar. That would be quite affordable for a 3rd world country or a country that is too cheap to spend on its military like Canada (jk...).

[powerslavenegi]

There is a flood of MRCA 4th generation fighters out on the market. To the untrained they all look the same. emp. all delta and canard style. Which of the following planes is better please supply info. I am only including the cheaper planes.

J-10
Grifen
Su-27
F-16

i will provide price and info later.
su-27 anytime russian aircraft are anytime the best in the world when it comes to sheer performnace and manueverability

[EnigmaNZ]

Last I saw, IIRC, it was about $15 to $20M US for the J-10 depending od the equipment supplier, with chinese being the cheapest. The other 3 flyaway are about $35 to $40M US, though I have seen F-16 C/Ds from $27m up depending on customer.

A couple of pricing sites.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/reference/Military_Aircraft_Prices/

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/military_aircraft_prices.htm