Dassault Rafale

[DragonBane]

Is there any news if Pakistan Air force is considering this aircraft? I was just curious..

[PAF GIRL]

well pakistan is considering mirages, eurofighter and rafales for its current needs since USA is not going to give us anything for defense against india. There was a news story that PAF is considering Eurofighter, an excellent choice but very expensive! :(

[Tazzers]

There was a news story that PAF is considering Eurofighter, an excellent choice but very expensive!

And the Rafale isn't expensive? It is in fact as expensive as a Typhoon.

[gf0012-aust]

IIRC The Rafale is more expensive than the Typhoon. I'll see if I can dig up the projected costs.

Most french equipment that I have dealt with has been significantly more expensive than the closest european equivalent.

[The Watcher]

Even if Rafale is few million dollar cheaper than Eurofighter, its still not as good. It was rated lowest in some tests done according to Financial times Defence reporter.

[Tazzers]

Even if Rafale is few million dollar cheaper than Eurofighter, its still not as good. It was rated lowest in some tests done according to Financial times Defence reporter.

I'm not sure. I tend to rate them pretty evenly and please don't listen to the FT, their 'defence correspondents' usually wear a number of 'hats' and defence is not their forte in my experience. :)

[The Watcher]

Even if Rafale is few million dollar cheaper than Eurofighter, its still not as good. It was rated lowest in some tests done according to Financial times Defence reporter.

I'm not sure. I tend to rate them pretty evenly and please don't listen to the FT, their 'defence correspondents' usually wear a number of 'hats' and defence is not their forte in my experience. :)

You are right. :lol We may have to ask them which tests did rafale participated in and how can we get the actual results. ;)

[Londo Molari]

Rafale would be a great choice for Pakistan because its the only aircraft that meets their "high-tech" requirements and is available to them at the same time. Of course it IS very expensive, and if the PAF spends ALL its money on JUST this aircraft (which it can't, it has other expenses) then it will only get a couple of squadrons. So thats a problem.

Surprisingly, PAF has NEVER EVER mentioned the Rafale... not even REMOTELY considered it publicly. They talked a lot about Mirage-2000.5 (which does not meet their requirements) and later even mentioned the Gripen (which is politically blocked), but never ever mentioned the Rafale which passes both criteria.

[Tazzers]

Surprisingly, PAF has NEVER EVER mentioned the Rafale... not even REMOTELY considered it publicly. They talked a lot about Mirage-2000.5 (which does not meet their requirements) and later even mentioned the Gripen (which is politically blocked), but never ever mentioned the Rafale which passes both criteria.

Does the Typhoon not pass PAF criterea and if not then why not? :?: I am not criticising your point of view but you say it is the only aircraft that meets the PAF high tech requirements. I assume you don't think the Typhoon does then, I was just wondering why you thought this. :)

[ullu]

tazzer, typhoon is one hell of the figghter. Any pakistani pilot would love to get his hands on it but the jet is too expensive for country like pakistan. Maybe we will be able to afford it in 10 or so years.

:pak :(

We should sue Benazir and nawaz sharif and confiscate the wealth that the stole from pakistan and buy PAF some good fighters!!! :D

[Londo Molari]

Does the Typhoon not pass PAF criterea and if not then why not? I am not criticising your point of view but you say it is the only aircraft that meets the PAF high tech requirements. I assume you don't think the Typhoon does then, I was just wondering why you thought this.

I said: "Rafale is the only aircraft that meets their "high-tech" requirements and is available to them at the same time". That means its the only one thats high-tech AND is available for sale to Pakistan.

Yes the Eurofighter meets their requirements, but it is BLOCKED from Pakistan, therefore it is not available... simply not an option...

It passes one category, but not the other.

[Aussie Digger]

I know this means nothing but the Rafale is just about the prettiest fighter getting around at the moment. :)

[gf0012-aust]

I know this means nothing but the Rafale is just about the prettiest fighter getting around at the moment. :)

no, give me a gripen and let me have a couple of million to hotrod it.

;) Sweet looking little ride.

[Aussie Digger]

Yep the French know how to design good lookin pieces, whether it's the most capable platform around is debatable, but oh those sweeping lines...

[Oqaab]

Londo,

I dont think the Eurofighter is blocked for PAF. PAF is showing interest in this aircraft and they must have thought that this aircraft could be blocked but, they are still interested.

[Tazzers]

tazzer, typhoon is one hell of the figghter. Any pakistani pilot would love to get his hands on it but the jet is too expensive for country like pakistan. Maybe we will be able to afford it in 10 or so years.

So what makes you think the Rafale is cheaper, by all accounts it is more expensive. :?: :)

[Londo Molari]

No, Rafale is not more expensive. They are both around the same... both are super expensive, and very few quantities are being ordered even by the home nations.

And the Eurofighter IS blocked for the PAF. Ask anyone if PAF can get the Eurofighter and they will laf in your face :(

[DragonBane]

Ah i didnt know this discussion would get going so nicely.. Nice information people.

[gf0012-aust]

No, Rafale is not more expensive. They are both around the same... both are super expensive, and very few quantities are being ordered even by the home nations.

And the Eurofighter IS blocked for the PAF. Ask anyone if PAF can get the Eurofighter and they will laf in your face :(

The Rafale should normally be more expensive (it doesn't have the advantage of a long order book, so there is less opportunity for it to amortise costs and be sold at a reduced price)

However (and there is always a "however"!), the French government is rumoured to be desperate for a sale - as no one outside of France has bought it yet. To try and sweeten a sale to Singapore they have offered ToT and co-operative missile research projects.

Singapore has to choose between the F15e, F16 block 160 and the Rafale.

[Londo Molari]

With every sale the Rafale loses, MORE people get discouraged to buy it, in fear of lack of support and interoperability... idiots... I cant believe the ROKAF bought F-15Ks over Rafales... at $80 mill a piece!

[Majin-Vegeta]

umm..i dont think that the Eurofighter is Blocked for Pakistan or middle east..heard a while back that they were opening sales for middle east and south asia..im not sure if its true..but maybe it is :P

I think the Eurofighter is good..but theres no point in buyin an expensive fighter when you cant use all of its abilities

[Londo Molari]

Its blocked.

[WebMaster]

Londo, it would be best to post an article or something confirming this.

Blocked
Not blocked
Blocked
Not blocked

It kinda gets very "not" interesting. ;)

[Oqaab]

I dont think it is blocked. Uk wants more and more sales of this costly aircraft. Austria is the only country whose interested in Eurofighter.

[elkaboingo]

would we actually go for this aircraft? PAF hasnt operated many twin engined fighters in the past. only f6 and a5

[umair]

HEAR HEAR! hear all coming from insider sources THE TYPHOON IS NOT POLITICALLY BLOCKED FOR THE PAF.
Germany and UK as well as Italy have no qualms about giving PAF the Typhoon.The only wild card is Spain.
This should put to rest all that blocked not blocked banter.
P.S going at the current unit price $70 mill/unit PAF can get about 36 fighters presently for $2.5 billion(the cost is inclusive of weapons and spares for some time period(I guess 4-5 years))
Add an option for 30 more and we can easilly induct it during the next 3-5 years.The $15billion for new fighters and other PAF thingys is spread over 5 years.That means we can afford to pay for these "ships" as they come without burdening the national exchequer too much.
Satisfied!

[binish_hassan]

hey when PAF cant Buy Mirage2000 for 65 Million how can it buy Eurofighter?

[Londo Molari]

There is no article that says its blocked or not.

ONCE, Jang (which has a reputation for messing up military names) posted that the PAF was considering the Eurofighter.

But think realistically... just use your mind... look around... and ask yourself...do you see the PAF with the Eurofighter? If you do, can I have some of the stuff ur smoking too?

[Oqaab]

But think realistically... just use your mind... look around... and ask yourself...do you see the PAF with the Eurofighter? If you do, can I have some of the stuff ur smoking too?

Well, thats a different case. We are discussing that is the Eurofighter blocked for PAF or not. Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies webpage also hinted that PAF is interested in Eurofighter. And I dont think PAF officials are stupid that they didnt thought before they considered eurofighter.

[Londo Molari]

im sure they "cosnsidered" it... that doesnt mean its not blocked to them.

[Firehorse]

Rather than starting a new tread, I found this one (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5744&page=3). OK: I recently heard that Lybia may get Rafales, after all.
France expects Libyan interest in fighter aircraft during visit
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/business/jdi/jdi071109_1_n.shtml
By J A C Lewis
09 November 2007

French military suppliers believe Libyan President Moammar Ghadaffi could sign a number of arms contracts when he visits France in early December 2007.

Industry sources said Ghadaffi could ink letters of intent to acquire Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft and Eurocopter Tiger combat helicopters within the framework of a defence pact signed by France and Libya in July.

However, Dassault Aviation poured cold water on media reports that Libya would sign up for 13 of its new-generation fighters during Ghadaffi's visit. "Any sale of Rafale to Libya, if indeed it materialises, would be far down the road," Dassault spokesman Yves Robins told Jane's. "We are not in talks with Tripoli at present."

Some analysts believe it unlikely Ghadaffi will commit himself to buying Rafale or Tiger during his visit, if only because a rival offer by Russia to sell fighter aircraft and other hardware worth a total of USD2.2 billion to Libya is on the table. Russian President Vladimir Putin is expected to visit Tripoli in late December to promote the deal.

171 of 382 words
© 2007 Jane's Information Group

[contedicavour]

Russia has a huge advantage since Libyan pilots are used to flying MIG23 and MIG25 and SU22. Moving to MIG29 or SU27 would be thus easier, cost less, and ensure easy supply of spare parts and weapons in case Gheddafi started misbehaving again and were to fall victim to embargoes...
It is true that Libya had Mirage IIIs and a few F1s modernized at the end of the 80s or early 90s, but they haven't been flying for quite a while so I doubt today's pilots are still familiar with Mirages. Also, I doubt France would sell the latest MICA IR and EM fire and forget technology while Russia wouldn't hesitate.

cheers

[swerve]

Russia has a huge advantage since Libyan pilots are used to flying MIG23 and MIG25 and SU22. Moving to MIG29 or SU27 would be thus easier, ...

cheers

I'm not so sure about that. The jump from a 1970s Mig-23 or Su-22 to a new glass cockpit MiG or Sukhoi might be as great as to a Rafale.

[Twix101]

Russia has a huge advantage since Libyan pilots are used to flying MIG23 and MIG25 and SU22. Moving to MIG29 or SU27 would be thus easier, cost less, and ensure easy supply of spare parts and weapons in case Gheddafi started misbehaving again and were to fall victim to embargoes...
It is true that Libya had Mirage IIIs and a few F1s modernized at the end of the 80s or early 90s, but they haven't been flying for quite a while so I doubt today's pilots are still familiar with Mirages. Also, I doubt France would sell the latest MICA IR and EM fire and forget technology while Russia wouldn't hesitate.

cheers

Yes, there is a great probability to Russia to win contract, mainly due to politics like you said. But, about the MICA's dont forget that Morocco received MICA and AASM. I think the blocking point will be with SCALP-EG, because of restrictions on technologies transfert for cruise missiles...

[swerve]

Yes, there is a great probability to Russia to win contract, mainly due to politics like you said. But, about the MICA's dont forget that Morocco received MICA and AASM. I think the blocking point will be with SCALP-EG, because of restrictions on technologies transfert for cruise missiles...

France has sold Black Shaheen, a version of Scalp EG with range limited to within MTCR guidelines (like Brahmos), to the UAE.

[kato]

France has sold Black Shaheen, a version of Scalp EG with range limited to within MTCR guidelines (like Brahmos), to the UAE.

There's afaik a couple more restrictions to Black Shaheen, performance-wise.
SCALP EG is already transferable under MTCR guidelines btw, as its (declassified, surmised) range doesn't exceed the 300 km threshold. Would probably be rather ambiguous to rule it either way though.

[swerve]

There's afaik a couple more restrictions to Black Shaheen, performance-wise.
SCALP EG is already transferable under MTCR guidelines btw, as its (declassified, surmised) range doesn't exceed the 300 km threshold. Would probably be rather ambiguous to rule it either way though.

AFAIK the public range is "more than" 250km, & that's range to target on a normal flight profile, not flight distance. I would expect flight distance to 250 km from launch to be over 300 km. Wouldn't that exceed the MTCR guidelines?

[kato]

AFAIK the public range is "more than" 250km, & that's range to target on a normal flight profile, not flight distance. I would expect flight distance to 250 km from launch to be over 300 km. Wouldn't that exceed the MTCR guidelines?

Of course, but it's an ambiguous case somewhat. Each side could point at this or that number.

I'm pretty sure that the 300 km for Brahmos - in order to not exceed MTCR - is operational range too, not flight distance.

Full flight distance with 250 km range would probably be around 350 to 370 km btw, going by similar numbers for KEPD350 (">350km" stated vs >500km actual flight).

[OPIT]

I would expect flight distance to 250 km from launch to be over 300 km.
I can assure you that flight distance (as you name it) of the SCALP-EG on a representative flight path is well beyond 300 km (real data still classified). The Black Shaheen derivative is downgraded to meet the MTCR requirements.

[Izzy1]

The Black Shaheen derivative is downgraded to meet the MTCR requirements.

Yes, of course it is.

That's why we're selling the "650km +" Storm Shadow to the Saudis. The UAE has the same range capability.

And you can rest assured on that as well.

MTCR...

[Twix101]

Yes, of course it is.

That's why we're selling the "650km +" Storm Shadow to the Saudis. The UAE has the same range capability.

And you can rest assured on that as well.

MTCR...

Where did you saw this range ?

[drg]

In the latest issue of Air International it is claimed that Libya signed an MoU on the acquisition of 14 Rafales from France on December 10th. Anyone know any more on this?

Mod edit:

Merged, it ain't real hard to find this sort of info on the boards. Perhaps people could try that before opening a similar thread?

It took me all of 3 minutes to find this thread AND merge the 2...

AD

[DefConGuru]

this was one misguided thread.

[neil]

Any thoughts on wether France will indeed buy the full compliment of Rafales it plans to?

French defence minister Morin recently said that France will maintain the full spectrum of military capabilities, including independant reconnaissance and intelligence gathering capabilitries, even though they are shrinking the military.

President Sarkosy also said he intends to maintain defence spending at 2% of GDP and it appears that he is fully funding the final year of the 2003-2008 military spending plan(drawn up by the previous administration). What happens after this year will reveal more of his intentions..

The above comments from these two gentlemen do not however, provide real insight on numbers of Rafales that will actually be purchased.

I know that any comments at this stage would be speculation(since no one can predict the future)..
Any thoughts or new facts would be interesting though..

[sansei]

The problem with the Rafale is that budget cuts have significantly reduced planned buys in addition to the fact that export sales have been abysmal-resulting in no cost savings or offsets to the program.

This has not been helped by the fact that there is a generally held view that its main competitor the Typhoon has substantially superior A2A performance (and increasingly A2G) and that Dassault's Spectra OSF system in the Rafale has yet to prove itself. Future sales of the Rafale look bleak, not helped by Dassault's obnoxious sales tactics added to the fact that other rivals such as the Gripen and upcoming F-35 have outright advantages in specialised areas such as strong A2A performance/short takeoff/compatability with US and EU logistical systems and stores and the latter A2G/Electronic surveillance-while the Rafale can be described as "a jack of all trades but a master of none" in terms of these areas.

Maybe Dassault can get a few sales in Brazil or maybe UAE-there is still hope even as small as it is.

[Salty Dog]

The Rafale is an interesting prospect for Brazil and India:
1) Both have new fighter requirements, India (MRCA), Brazil (FX-2)
2) Both operate the Mirage 2000
3) The Rafale M is carrier capable (CATOBAR). Brazilians have CATOBAR, India has STOBAR.

[ROCK45]

Hi Salty Dog
Can I ask you a question about Brazil.
Was it a money issue or politics that stop the FX-1 bid from purchasing fighters a few year ago? Picking up the Mirage 2000-C are a help but the 2000-5 are more capable, maybe they were out of production already?

In your opinion how does the Rafale match up against a Su-30MK2 Flanker, basically the same type Venezuela bought? I've been hunting around little and there isn't a lot of comparisons between the two base on real facts. Do you know if France and India held any training together? Always thought that was a cool idea for a threat list all modern aircraft that trained against each other. Thanks

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Wink

[swerve]

Hi Salty Dog
Can I ask you a question about Brazil.
Was it a money issue or politics that stop the FX-1 bid from purchasing fighters a few year ago? Picking up the Mirage 2000-C are a help but the 2000-5 are more capable, maybe they were out of production already?...

The Mirage 2000C were a fraction of the cost of new Mirage 2000-5. The Mirage 2000-5 Mk II was a contender for the FX, & the 2000C buy was only 3 months after that was canned, so certainly it would have been possible to buy the M2K-5. Dassault was still hoping India would buy it at that point; indeed, the IAF wanted to buy it, but politicians had other ideas.

[ROCK45]

Thanks swerve

Do you know if India's Flankers ever match up against any French aircraft in training?

[Salty Dog]

Hi Salty Dog
Can I ask you a question about Brazil.
Was it a money issue or politics that stop the FX-1 bid from purchasing fighters a few year ago? Picking up the Mirage 2000-C are a help but the 2000-5 are more capable, maybe they were out of production already?

In your opinion how does the Rafale match up against a Su-30MK2 Flanker, basically the same type Venezuela bought? I've been hunting around little and there isn't a lot of comparisons between the two base on real facts. Do you know if France and India held any training together? Always thought that was a cool idea for a threat list all modern aircraft that trained against each other. Thanks

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Wink

Money and politics cancelled the FX-1 program. The Mirage 2000C was bought used to urgently replace Mirage III's that were retired.

Brazil has not held any training with India as far as I know.

I'm not keen to make fighter comparisons, sorry to disappoint you. While there are many criteria, I believe fighters are chosen to meet mission requirements.

[ROCK45]

Thanks Salty Dog for your input and I'm rooting for the Rafale for Brazil I think the aircraft would serve your air force well and meet mission requirements. Is Brazil's carrier larger enough to launch/land Rafale M?

My question was "Do you know if France and India held any training together?" Not India and Brazil.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)

[Scorpion82]

Well I know at least Su-30K visiting France back in 2004, but I'm not sure about exercises involving the Su-30MKI.

[Salty Dog]

Thanks Salty Dog for your input and I'm rooting for the Rafale for Brazil I think the aircraft would serve your air force well and meet mission requirements. Is Brazil's carrier larger enough to launch/land Rafale M?

Not India and Brazil.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)

The Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo is the ex-French carrier Foch. It was aboard the Foch that the Rafale M made the first sea trials. So a big yes to Rafale capability on the São Paulo.

And yes, there have been numerous air training exercises between Brazil and France.

Finally, . . . my air force flies the F-22 and my navy the F/A-18.

[ROCK45]

Thanks Scorpion82 that's the kind of information I'm looking for. That's why I started the Joint air exercise threat http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7390.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)

[ROCK45]

Thanks Salty Dog I didn't know that so if funding is found Brazil's Navy maybe launching shinny brand new M Rafale's one day off it's deck. If a Rafale deal is ever worked out I hope Brazil gets some production rights, I always been impressed with there aircraft industry.

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Thumbs up

[swerve]

The Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo is the ex-French carrier Foch. It was aboard the Foch that the Rafale M made the first sea trials. So a big yes to Rafale capability on the São Paulo.....

True, but I would expect Rafale to be somewhat limited in T/O weight & hence load from São Paulo.