How would pak. counter phalcon threat?

[GoldenEagle]

Now that phalcon would be flyingin nextdoor.How do you plan to counter the threat?

phalcon range= 350 kms
flying altitude[ceiling]=35000 fts and above.


ft-2000 max.range=100 extendible to 150 kms. max
altitude attained=35000 fts.?

The phalcon does not have to come in range to spy on your territory and so it would be worthless to deploy anti-awacs systems.So what should we do?

-extend range of anti-awacs system to 350 kms or more?
Vertical altitude to 150 kms from surface to air is very difficult to achieve as this becomes equal to an space launch vehicle putting a satellite into the lowest orbit in space. Killing a phalcon would be equal to putting a small satellite into space, each time and no guarantee it would hit a score.

So, other option is:
-satellites into near orbit, which could track phalcon movements and jam their radar when required or even shoot it down?


For your comments and suggestions?




GE :sniper

[Oqaab]

Pakistan has decided to counter Phalcons with FT-2000 Anti radiation missiles but I dont think these missiles can counter Phlacon. FT-2000 has a range of 100 kms and Phalcons will be able to see 250 km area of Pakistan even if they are away from the range of FT-2000. Pakistan still needs 1 or 2 AWACS planes to neutralize imbalance of power.

[ullu]

Awacs killers are best bet for pakistan right now. As we all know no one else would sell anything that helps Pakistan in anyway, shape or form as far as its defenses are concerned. But they will come crying over their mothers when they need Pakistan. Lousy bastards. :mad

[Red aRRow]

Another more daring way is to make a "suicide squad" or Kamikaze style group of around four or five JF-17s for each Phalcon. The group's sole purpose would be to head straight for their designated Phalcon and to take it down. The pilots need to be highly motivated and selfless; which I am sure will not be difficult to find in the PAF.
They would have to have a strategy to get through the AWACS escort which will surely do its best to guard the Phalcon. One way could be to send 3 to 4 Thunders in first to get one on one with the escort while sneaking in 1 or 2 Thunders little later which directly go for the Phalcon.

[WebMaster]

Whats phalcon doing when it would let a "sneak in" fighter jet in to attack it? Don't you think the backup will arrive from somewhere-its EARLY WARNING system after all. :hehe:

[Red aRRow]

Whats phalcon doing when it would let a "sneak in" fighter jet in to attack it? Don't you think the backup will arrive from somewhere-its EARLY WARNING system after all. :hehe:

LOL ...I think i got carried away!! :D :D :D

I guess the answer is FT-2000 and key is to fire one after the other. Meaning as soon as the phalcon appears i.e. its electromagnetic radiation is detected an AWACS killer should be fired. Either the Phalcon goes down or it has to shut down its radar in order to avoid the missile. As soon as it turns the radar on again...Pakistan should fire another missile ..Thus forcing the Phalcon to be shut down the majority of the time. Threat Neutralized!! :smokingc: :smokingc:

[Red aRRow]

ok ok another idea. As the Phalcon has to shut down its radar in order to avoid the anti radiation FT-2000 in the meantime the JF-17s sneak in and do the Kamikaze attack. If the Phalcon does not shut down its toast anyway since the FT-2000 (with longer range of course) will turn it into a fireball.

Am I a genius or what!!??? :D :D :D

[WebMaster]

lol

If it shuts down its radar, it wouldn't be a phalcon would it be? Gotcha again... :D :D :D

[favad]

AOA
This is my first replies to any forum .thing is u cannot counter a phalcon system as it is there to counter u .moreover pakistan shouldnt be worried about it as i heard chinese are making a new version of ft-2000 which has a longer range of 150 km+ so this is a big plus for pk and more over since v r going to develop it locally in pk so we r going to use it as Sams and remind u all Paf has always been a defensive force ,we dont need a billion $ jet ,but we need is a good air-defense system mainly of new jets and a large no of FT-2000 ,Inshallah victory will be overs .
Pakistan zindabad

[Oqaab]

Hello favad,

welcome to the forum. :)

Comming back to the topic.

Plzzz provide a link regarding this FT-2000 upgrade. And if its range is extended to 150 kms, it will still not be able to counter Phalcons. I mean, there are chances but its just a SAM and SAMs miss targets more. FT-2000 was selected to counter aircrafts like Su-30MKI or there are some rumours about this missile that it can also be used as a ABM but it is still not confirmed.

[favad]

Future variants of the FT2000A will incorporate a GPS receivers to greatly increase hit accuracy when radar lock on is lost after emitter switch-off, because GPS guidance will keep the missile within a narrow box towards the last known emitter position.Future variants of the FT2000A will incorporate a GPS receivers to greatly increase hit accuracy when radar lock on is lost after emitter switch-off, because GPS guidance will keep the missile within a narrow box towards the last known emitter position.Future variants of the FT2000A will incorporate a GPS receivers to greatly increase hit accuracy when radar lock on is lost after emitter switch-off, because GPS guidance will keep the missile within a narrow box towards the last known emitter position. also further details Inshallah soon with links .
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

[WebMaster]

Favad, thanks for posting... do you have weblink/url for this information?

Thanks

Admin

[Oqaab]

I found the link to that information. :D

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airdefence/ft2000.asp

BTW favad, whats the reason of writing one statement three times ?????

[favad]

Hi Oqaab whcih statment r u refering to ,any ways u found the link thats good ,plz tell me if there are chances of making Airdefense or acquiring one and can any one tell if ft-2000 b used as an anti missile or as a shield against ballistic missiles

[Oqaab]

I dont think FT-2000 can be used against ballistic missiles. S-300 or S-400 may have this capability but FT-2000 cant do it.

[Red aRRow]

I dont think FT-2000 can be used against ballistic missiles. S-300 or S-400 may have this capability but FT-2000 cant do it.

Hard to say Oqaab. Because even though the FT-2000 is an ARM (Anti Radiation Missile) and would not be able to detect and intercept ballistic missiles on its own (since ballistic missiles don't have radars or any EM radiation) but still the FT-2000 can rely on its ground based HT-233 phased array radar to detect an incoming ballistic missile and to guide it to the target. After all this is the principle on which the S-300/400 rely upon. I don't see why it cannot be used here also. What do you say??

[umair]

In my opinion we should go for a combo of FT2000& the SU 27 armed with A-A9s. ? about SU27 availability, we should once again try to get the flankers at $8-10 million a pop from Ukraine. The plan would be 2 get the phalcon to shut it's plate by launching an FT200. Once it's radar is of the flankers could rushin, get a lock on the carrying plane&launch the AA9s which have a range of about 105kt miles& turn &run using full afterburn.

[favad]

AoA
Umair bahi in my view if v r getting su-27 thats a good news at this rate,but dont u think like Americans if u want to buy some thing i.e from turkey or any f-16 opertaing nation u need American approval dont uthink it is optimistic to think Ukraine which is making su-27 dont they need russias approval and Russia wont sell us unless Indians tells them to do Which i think wont b possible forthe next 50 years or so .So this option is limited /not possible any ways in my view get some good sams heat seekers and some gripens or some f-16.
ws
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

[razhas]

Assalam o alaekum everybody

I am a new comer to this forum....or more precisely even to any of the defencetalk forums .............

I have read this sort of discussion, i.e. regarding the US or some other “big gun(dd)” supplying or approving this kind of military hardware or of that kind to India or to Pakistan or etc etc , many a times both at your forums or at pakistanidefence forums...........

many of my brothers really seem pretty worried at what the US or some other “big gun(dd)” might do or might not do..........well neither the US nor the touts backed by the US are gods.......... and al -hamdolillah we as muslims do not believe in any such "gods'............


as far as the military strategy and tactic is concerned ............ in the absence of an early warning system, our forces may look vulnerable...... but then there are means and ways to convert your weaknesses into strengths................. and above all making best use of your own strong points........that’s what makes good soldiers the best........

and the best virtue of it all is the desire for shahadat and no fear of death of kith and kin or even own........ no matter "they" have advanced planes with greater BVR capability and operational range and reach........... no matter they have planes in greater numbers...... no matter they have awacs................ just like what Shamael has suggested…….e.g. if two or four or six or ten of our ghazis in the formation attain the status of shaheeds while providing cover for the third or fifth or seventh or eleventh shaheen ghazi who strikes right in the heart of the enemy .........and no matter after doing so also attains shahdat........... then the only thing the enemy will remember next time he tries to go up in the air, is that he will not be able to return to his base no matter how advanced or "stealthy" a plane he is flying.......... and if anybody really knows anything about fighting a war, then a jittery soldier is the last thing that an armed force would like to have in its ranks..........


and i would also like to register my utter disgust regarding the views of some .......... these views portray china as a very low profile backward and technologically poor country from whose military hardware and technology Pakistan should distance itself or should not regard as first class...........

first of all if you say or even think about your benefactor in such a manner then not only will you disgrace yourself as an ungrateful and uncivilized nation , but will also invite ALLAH's wrath upon yourself, as he does not like the ppl who would not respect and regard their benefactors.........

and only if such ppl have been looking at the history of china in the distant and recent past (particularly in the 20th century as it is relatively well documented) then it will become as clear as it could be that china has always been a center of cultural as well as technological prowess and also a nation with dignified stance………………and at times despite having relatively inferior or no matching technology or ability, have very well defended itself and held its head high…………………..no wonder we do not pay much attention to our own religion………according to a very famous hadeeth demonstrating the importance of “Ilm”, china is mentioned as a destination for the seekers of “Ilm” …………….and as we all know if it were to be the “ Ilm ad Deen” or knowledge of the religion then there was no Islam in China on the advent of ISalm in Arabia………………..


So my dear friends and brothers…………………….. hold your heads high in front of the foe and bowed in front of the God ALMIGHTY ALLAH subhan wa taalaa and just keep your faith only and only in him and be nice and loving to the benefactors he has provided us with………….


.....ghairat baree hai cheez jahaan e tag o dau mein.................... (iqbal (R.A))


....sher kee aik din kee zindagee geedar kee sau sala zindagee say behtar hai......(tipu sultan (R.A))

[WebMaster]

Razhas, please don't post same reply three times. If you want to discuss something, please open a new thread and get down with it. :)

Thanks

[umair]

AoA
Umair bahi in my view if v r getting su-27 thats a good news at this rate,but dont u think like Americans if u want to buy some thing i.e from turkey or any f-16 opertaing nation u need American approval dont uthink it is optimistic to think Ukraine which is making su-27 dont they need russias approval and Russia wont sell us unless Indians tells them to do Which i think wont b possible forthe next 50 years or so .So this option is limited /not possible any ways in my view get some good sams heat seekers and some gripens or some f-16.
ws
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

Ukraine's SU-27 license production agreement allows it to export the fighter to any country regardless of Russian permission. :roll2

[favad]

thats nice so lets pray to God that people in ISB also understand this and start negotiating in terms of purchasing

[The Watcher]

If I am not wrong, ukrain already declined to sell those puppies to PAF. Maybe that has changed now? Any news on it guys?

[Oqaab]

Chinese Su-27/J-11 is a better option for Pakistan then Ukrainian Su-27s. China should make a Pakistani version of J-11 aircraft armed with deadly PL-9C and SD-10 missiles. But, China needs russian permission to do all this.

[Oqaab]

Chinese Su-27/J-11 is a better option for Pakistan then Ukrainian Su-27s. China should make a Pakistani version of J-11 aircraft armed with deadly PL-9C and SD-10 missiles. But, China needs russian permission to do all this.

[umair]

If I am not wrong, ukrain already declined to sell those puppies to PAF. Maybe that has changed now? Any news on it guys?

Ukraine didn't decline. In fact it offered us the planes way back in 96-97 when the T-80 deal had just been agreed upon. Too bad some smartalecks in the PAF's procurement div declined as they were too optimstic of gettin the embargoed Falcons.

[DarthChorley]

i read recently that the chinese were looking at creating a totally indigenous version of the j-11...and that they would look to export this version in the future ....however i also read that this version was at least 5 years away from production...

[Oqaab]

i read recently that the chinese were looking at creating a totally indigenous version of the j-11...and that they would look to export this version in the future ....however i also read that this version was at least 5 years away from production...

Interesting .... I read somewhere that Chinese J-10 is not for export and China will try to export FC-1 as much as possible in place of J-10. But I m not sure about it. Anyways, China is now making WS-10(??) engine for J-11 and it is possible that J-11 and FC-1 will be exported, and not the J-10.

[corsair7772]

I think the "move in fast, fire ur missiles and get outa there" is good. Very good... How about buying a Mig-25, arm it up and use its Mach 3 ability 4 a dash in and out?
(dont mind my over enthusiasm but everyone wants 2 shoot down an AWACS!!!)

[Su_37]

Hello favad,

welcome to the forum. :)

Comming back to the topic.

Plzzz provide a link regarding this FT-2000 upgrade. And if its range is extended to 150 kms, it will still not be able to counter Phalcons. I mean, there are chances but its just a SAM and SAMs miss targets more. FT-2000 was selected to counter aircrafts like Su-30MKI or there are some rumours about this missile that it can also be used as a ABM but it is still not confirmed.


Well ,,, you froget one this , Future version of Phalcon will also counter this threat , it will armed with jammers aslo which jam the GPS signels ......of the immcoming missile .

[Oqaab]

Well ,,, you froget one this , Future version of Phalcon will also counter this threat , it will armed with jammers aslo which jam the GPS signels ......of the immcoming missile .

Can an aircraft jam SAMs ??? I dont think so.

shamayel, where are u dude ??

[corsair7772]

Aircraft can Jam Sams.(that rhymes pretty well). And Phalcons can do it pretty well. There taking over the canberras role in EW in the IAF.

[Red aRRow]

Can an aircraft jam SAMs ??? I dont think so.

shamayel, where are u dude ??

Yeah dude...am here. :D
Well of course aircrafts deploy counter measures against SAMs and try to jam them. All depends on the type of missile heading your way...could be radar guided, IR guided...etc. and this dictates what kind of countermeasures are deployed.

Read my article at the following URL:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_616.shtml

[Su_37]

Sometime when i tell you things i think i banging my hrad against wall ...

Friends got complete information about armaments ,. don;t u ever heard of Infrared jammers ?
or about anti -anti radiation missiles ?just like flares which project aircraft from heat seaking missiles.

or about Ionnisation ?

IAF think one step ahead, thats why it takes long to get deal ,, IAF want make sure that deal is the best armed wiht all avaliable technology.

[Red aRRow]

I think AWACS killers like the Chinese FT-2000 or the Russian KS-172 AAM-L which have ranges in excess of 400 kms are a good way of countering the threat of the Phalcons.

The missiles having passive seekers and home on jam modes will be very difficult to jam. Only solutions could be that
1) The AWACS turns its radar off and engage in evasive manouvres. This will be exactly what the opponent want....no radar coverage which can give its fighters time to swoop in.

2) Use towed decoys. Which I must say cannot be very effective since the AWACS would have to turn its huge EM emitting radar off anyways.

So I think such anti radiation missiles with huge ranges and passive seekers are the way to go for an airforce which wants to counter an AWACS armed opponent.

[gf0012-aust]

The major factor is what money is available to spend on a solution. The ideal solution is one that is integrated - and a counter to an airborne array system will be expensive.

1) Long range air launched interceptors
2) Satellite controlled final delivery (if poss with the weapon system)
3) Long range tracking systems
4) Long range SAMs

Any of these in isolation provide a level of response, as an intetgrated solution - on an order of magnitude - they become tipping point solutions.

[Gangsternation]

[Admin Edit: Try to put some sense and volume in your replies. Make sense. :idea2 Explain the WHY, HOWs, etc. ]

[mysterious]

any of u read this article lately?

Pakistan Looking To Acquire FT-2000 "AWACS Killers"
October 19, 2003: Confirming China's acquiescence to support Pakistan in dealing with the strategic challenge posed by Indo-Israel military collaboration, reliable European defence experts have claimed that Chinese "AWACS Killers" would play a key role in Pakistan's strategy to counter Indo-Israel Phalcon deal.

FT-2000 commonly known as "AWACS Killers", surface to air missile (SAM), designed by Chinese experts are considered to be the most appropriate option, if the USA refuses to provide the same kind of "AWACS" to Pakistan which are being sold to India by Israel under the approval of Washington. "Pakistan is also considering a project to produce FT-2000 "AWACS Killers" type of missiles, indigenously", claimed an expert requesting anonymity. Pakistan and China are equally concerned over the India-Israel Phalcon deal concluded with Washington's acquiescence and are of the view that the transfer of AWACS technology to India would challenge the delicate conventional military equilibrium in South Asia, disturbing the no win situation which guarantees peace in the region.

"High level consultations between Beijing and Islamabad on the Indo-Israel Phalcon deal are in progress as both Pakistan and China, through diplomatic channels, have conveyed to the international community that they would counter the Indian move of acquiring Israeli Phalcon Radar System", a European defence expert monitoring the AWACS related developments told.

Indian clarification that it will use the Phalcons in only 'Kargil type of intrusions' has failed to assuage authorities in Beijing, who believe that the India-Israel-Russia Il-76-Phalcon deal is deleterious for regional peace as Phalcons are force-multipliers and would dramatically alter the conventional weapons balance in the region. Pakistani Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat's statement on Pakistani endeavours to counter the India-Israeli Phalcon Radar System deal and his claim that 'the nation would hear good news by June 30, 2004' has been interpreted by European experts in the context of the perceived Pak-China cooperation on this issue.

The European experts indicate that Pakistan may take the same option followed by China when the USA vetoed the Israeli decision to provide AWACS to China. China had warned Israel that its decision to cancel the sale of an advanced airborne radar system could hurt bilateral relations. But Israel bowed to American pressure in July 2000 and scrapped a $250m deal to sell China a Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS). The US administration, according to the defence source, have indicated that they would help Pakistan in countering the conventional weapons imbalance affected in the region by India-Israel Phalcon deal only if the congress agrees to such a proposal. Analysts here believe that the US congress seems to be in no mood, however, to assent to any of such proposal tabled by the administration.

Admin Edit: Links please!

[WebMaster]

Link for above (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/10/mil-031020-irna01.htm)

Mysterious, next time post the link!

[Gangsternation]

if the Phalcon let say resides in india while covering large quantities of pakistani airspace....and if the F-2000 can not reach it from pakistan, then on the event of war, my guess is a speacialised mobile F-2000 can be used, this would obviosly mean pakistan gaining ground in india to shoot the bugger down.

U cannot shoot down anything over another countries airspace, hence the notion of war must be in place for any shooting down of awacs.

Another idea just sprung to mind, but would require the usage of a very small UAV that the phalcon would not be able to detect. Imagine a very small, or even a stealth UAV which carries a small compact Air to Air missile, this would be more then sufficient to take down awacs. Bottom dollar says the US is building a stealth UAV. -wingz

[gf0012-aust]

Both the US and France have been working on UCAVs for some time.

eg USAF X45 and Frances Grand Duc, Petit Duc series.

[mysterious]

Sorry, but I do not have the link for that article with me as I downloaded that article some time back but forgot to copy the link with the article. But I assure you, its from a credible source. Probably, www.pakistanidefence.com or one other site which I cant really remember rite now! I'll try n get the link for this and next time try n copy the link along with the article. :roll

[Gangsternation]

pakistan actually has uav's right now america actually purchased a few at the idea's day :smokingc: