Pirates

[type 209]

this is a thread for discussing all aspects of piracy. where are they? what ships do they have? what sort of weapons? what are there tactics?

[noovie]

what sort of weapons?
Cannons,Parrots,Helper Monkeys

and I'am pretty sure if you piffed a wooden leg hard enough you could
do some damage. :onfloorl:

[Alswelk]

Are we talking 'classical' pirates, or referring to the recent flair-up of piracy occuring near Somalia?

[Rich]

Coast of Africa and South China sea mostly. Anything that floats. Mostly small arms.

[Alswelk]

Its the 'mostly' that worries me, and the ominous pirate 'mother-ship' that has been sighted. The part that I find troubling is that the attacks seem to be well organized, and near a region where older actual military vessels are sent to be broken. Although this would certainly not be a threat to, say, US vessels, the area in question has a great deal of merchant traffic that is definetly threatened.

[type 209]

we are talking about modern pirates. Alswelk have you heard of this pirate "mother ship" or are you just saying that you think that there could be one.

[Alswelk]

There are a number of news articles on CNN.com relating to an increase in piracy off Somalia. Several of them refer to a "mother-ship". I find it ominous.

[pepsi]

Its kind of funny reading about pirates, i think the word has a kind of stereotype that makes everyone suddenly think of the pirate with bird on shoulder, hook for hand, etc

But it does happen quite a lot apparently, there was that cruise ship thing recently off Africa as people have already menitioned, and i think similar things happen quite a lot but not on that scale, e.g. smaller private boats rather than cruiseliners

[noovie]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17920613-13762,00.html

see I told you wooden legs could be dangerous

[turin]

The suspected mothership was linked to the incident off the coast of Somalia, when pirates in a small boat attacked the cruise ship "Seaborne Spirit" about 100 miles offshore. Since the boat was too small to safely travel over such distances, a larger ship in the vicinity used as base of pperations seems to be the only possible answer. Additionally there were some reports about an unidentified freighter cruising around in these waters.
The government of Somalia hired the PSC Topcat Marine Security in order to fight piracy and re-establish security along the coast.

Usually pirates operate near the coast and use the element of surprise in order to attack and/or take over larger ships, especially freighters and tankers. Their weapons range from knives and small arms to RPG and light machine guns, usually carried in speed boats.

The Tsunami in 2004 greatly diminished pirate activity in the area of Indonesia and Malaysia, supposedly because their bases had been destroyed. Yet the phenomenon is all but decreasing and several hot spots do exist worldwide.
A map can be found with this report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4424264.stm

[LancerMc]

From the news I have read over the past few years, most modern pirate activity is located in the Indian and Pacific ocean. The threat of privacy is still taken very seriously in some parts of the world.

Pirate activity is still quite on going. The news report that comes to mind was about 4 or 5 years ago, a group of European and American tourists went to one of the islands where the the American TV show "Survivor" was filmed. The tourist's were on the island when they were attacked by a group of pirates. The two American's were the only ones to escape, and the rest of the tourist grouped was behead. I'll try find more information about the incident.

The most recent issues have been the capturing of a supposed pirate ship in the Indian ocean, and the attack against a cruise liners a few months ago.

[type 209]

just a few days ago there was an article about the U.S having to board a pirate ship

i wonder what weapons are available to pirate anything stronger than rpgs maybe some 30mm guns or mines?

[turin]

i wonder what weapons are available to pirate anything stronger than rpgs maybe some 30mm guns or mines?

At least I heard of no report about such armament. Most pirates prefer to travel light, and since their targets usually are not armed anyway, a heavier gun would offer no advantage and only slow them down or would make things more expensive, since they need a bigger boat.
Pirates go for the money, they are certainly not interested in fighting against security forces, though such things happen on occasion when matters go awry.

[arkhan]

From the news I have read over the past few years, most modern pirate activity is located in the Indian and Pacific ocean. The threat of privacy is still taken very seriously in some parts of the world.

Pirate activity is still quite on going. The news report that comes to mind was about 4 or 5 years ago, a group of European and American tourists went to one of the islands where the the American TV show "Survivor" was filmed. The tourist's were on the island when they were attacked by a group of pirates. The two American's were the only ones to escape, and the rest of the tourist grouped was behead. I'll try find more information about the incident.

The most recent issues have been the capturing of a supposed pirate ship in the Indian ocean, and the attack against a cruise liners a few months ago.
actually the island is Sipadan island, survivor was film on Tiga Island.
search 'sipadan island attack by terrorist' on google.
try these links:
http://www.cdnn.info/special-report/sipadan/sipadan.html
http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/orgattack.cfm?orgid=3
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/review/2005/autumn/art4-a05.htm

the third link from naval war college is quite long. read it to understand the link between piracy and terrorism in south east asia. if you study the map in the article you will understand why it is hard to fight these piracy because there is so many island the can hide.

[arkhan]

i forgot, this is the link to Survivor Island/Pulau Tiga
http://www.impressions.com.my/pulau3/3main.htm
Tourist need not worry, after the Sipadan incident, there is small number of army personel station on the island.

[Berserk Fury]

Actually most of the piracy occurs around the Strait of Malacca, I believe, in island areas like Indonesia.
Regarding pirate armaments, I'd say they'd be armed with Ak's and LMG's maybe a few RPG's, maybe some explosives.
btw, has anybody read Tiger Cruise? it's about pirates attack a US destroyer.

[gf0012-aust]

Actually most of the piracy occurs around the Strait of Malacca, I believe, in island areas like Indonesia.

The main trouble spots are around Somalia, The Straits of Malacca, South China Sea (Philippines)

Regarding pirate armaments, I'd say they'd be armed with Ak's and LMG's maybe a few RPG's, maybe some explosives.

My daughter is attached to an anti-piracy security team. They are assigned to various vessels deemed "valuable and at risk" The pirates that they've come across have been armed with RPG's, 50cals and the usual small arms.

Their type of response is very much dependant on the severity of the threat - but the less passengers on board, the more likely they are to respond with extreme force.

[Uhu]

IMB (international maritime bureau) released their annual "piracy and armed robbery" report today, here's an article about it (http://www.icc-ccs.org/main/news.php?newsid=63) with the most interesting statistics and also a link where you can request the full report.

Short summary (no guarantee):

The number of attacks fell from 329 (2004) to 276 (2005), the lowest since 6 years, no crewmembers were killed but 12 are still missing.
On the other hand the the number of hijacked vessels is the highest since 1992: 23 vessels and 440 crewmembers were taken hostage, the highest number sincd 1992. Such incidents happend in the waters of Somalia, Indonesia and Nigeria.

Developement of piracy hotspots:

Increase:
Somalia: from 2 (2004) to 35 (2005
Iraq: from 0 to 10
Also Tanzania, Vietnam

Decrease:
Indonesia: down from 94 to 79
Malacca Straits: down from 38 to 12
Also Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, Venezuela, Guinea

The article mentions also that the increased presence of foreign naval forces in Somali waters towards the end of 2005 ndeed had a positive impact on the numbers.

[Mercenary]

The typical pirate scumare armed with a wide assortment of AK-47's, M-16's, LMG's, and RPG-7's depending on their geographical location of course.

The U.S. Navy recently last month I believe had deployed a GM Cruiser offshore of Somali where they intercepted some Somali Pirate scum and fired .50cal HMG some were captured. Too bad, they survived. It's not worth US taxpayer $$ to keep 'em alive in our posh prisons. Sink their craft and leave them to the sharks.

This overkill Naval deployment was in direct response to some Pirate scum that attacked a Cruise Liner in international waters off Somali firing RPG's at it's hull! The Capt. used shriek air horn/sirens to drive them away.

Piracy is on the rise all across the planet. It happens everywhere from the Red Sea to Malacca Straits (Malaysia) to the Indian Ocean to Persian Gulf to the Carribean to the Greek Islands, etc.

The problems for innocent private citizens around the world is they typically are not well armed to hold off Pirate scum utilizing lethal firepower because outside USA water's many nations for instance in the Carribean have strict laws governing the ownership of handguns. And in a close anti-boarding party scenerio a stainless steel 4" barrel .357mag Revolver would be ideal. :)

At the least an stainless steel, .12 guage pump Shotgun with OO buck and/or a short barreled .45ACP Marlin Carbine or a SS 7.62mm, Mini-30 would be smart for cruisers doing the around-the-world curcuit.

Dealing with Piracy scum becomes a Military intervention when the immediate local Law Enforcement agencies are ill-equipped/motivated to counter it.

The other important item to keep in mind here is Piracy does not just target small sailboats, but increasing fuel tankers, cargo freighters, bulk vessels, container ships, etc, etc, have all become targets over the years particulary down in South East Asian waters. Often the 'victims' are machine gunned where they stand. Stolen Vessels are repainted and later sold on the black market. Big Biz in some parts of the world.

Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia need to put aside their petty differences and come together with a solidified stance on countering and ultimately reduce the increasing number of Pirate attacks in these waters. Joint Naval and Law Enforcement coupled with maybe something like a Joint Procurement of a low-cost twin turboprop Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (Defender 4000 MPA, Beech King Air 350 MPA, F-406 Caravan II MPA, etc) to be utilized by ALL these nations to provide around the clock coverage of these dangerous waters.

Also invest in a 'common' ultra fast interceptor Patrol Boat either on the civilian market or maybe a lower cost Super Dvora Mk III Interceptor PGB?

Finally some sort of helo' equipped Offshore Patrol Vessel for joint procurement. Malaysia and Australia at one point in time were planning to build a joint designed OPV.

[gf0012-aust]

The U.S. Navy recently last month I believe had deployed a GM Cruiser offshore of Somali where they intercepted some Somali Pirate scum and fired .50cal HMG some were captured. Too bad, they survived. It's not worth US taxpayer $$ to keep 'em alive in our posh prisons. Sink their craft and leave them to the sharks.
The USN had a pair of ships in the area - they actually responded as the pirate vessels attacked them, One of the pirates boats actually attempted an RPG attack.

This overkill Naval deployment was in direct response to some Pirate scum that attacked a Cruise Liner in international waters off Somali firing RPG's at it's hull! The Capt. used shriek air horn/sirens to drive them away.
My daughter was on that Ocean Liner as part of the Security Detail. She was the LRAD operator. They don't use air horns/sirens at all. It is a focussed acoustic beam weapon. In addition the vessel did suffer damage even though it was not reported in the general press. Two RPG's peirced the hull but did not explode. All passengers were on the other side of the vessel as directed by security. One crewman was injured by debris from an RPG entry. The Captain also attempted to run down the pirate vessels and had the advantage of superior speed and manouvre. At a certain speed pirates can't board - the issue is ensuring that they can't draw in so as to get close enough to board. Enough speed means that its too dangerous for the pirates to approach the stern. There have been instances of pirates being sucked under the stern of a larger vessel (eg cruise liner size)

Piracy is on the rise all across the planet. It happens everywhere from the Red Sea to Malacca Straits (Malaysia) to the Indian Ocean to Persian Gulf to the Carribean to the Greek Islands, etc.
The best data - and daily updated accurate data is provided by IMB. All merchant vessels have hourly access to the IMB data.

The problems for innocent private citizens around the world is they typically are not well armed to hold off Pirate scum utilizing lethal firepower because outside USA water's many nations for instance in the Carribean have strict laws governing the ownership of handguns. And in a close anti-boarding party scenerio a stainless steel 4" barrel .357mag Revolver would be ideal. :)
It also applies to major vessels like cruise liners. Insurance companies actually prohibit some vessels from having an armoury. As for private vessels, even though gun laws can be prohibitive on general ownership, there are provisions allowed for legitimate carriage and thus licensing re self protection.

At the least an stainless steel, .12 guage pump Shotgun with OO buck and/or a short barreled .45ACP Marlin Carbine or a SS 7.62mm, Mini-30 would be smart for cruisers doing the around-the-world curcuit.
See above. Thats why they field LRAD. There are other non lethal options as well but they are not disclosed for security reasons.

Dealing with Piracy scum becomes a Military intervention when the immediate local Law Enforcement agencies are ill-equipped/motivated to counter it.
In the case of Somalia its because there was no govt proper - that has now been resolved and the US has been "invited" by the remnants of the legitimate govt to act in a coastal protection role.

The other important item to keep in mind here is Piracy does not just target small sailboats, but increasing fuel tankers, cargo freighters, bulk vessels, container ships, etc, etc, have all become targets over the years particulary down in South East Asian waters. Often the 'victims' are machine gunned where they stand. Stolen Vessels are repainted and later sold on the black market. Big Biz in some parts of the world.
Actually, the bulk of attacks are on larger vessels as they carry payrolls for their crew. Again, the IMB reports give some detail.

Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia need to put aside their petty differences and come together with a solidified stance on countering and ultimately reduce the increasing number of Pirate attacks in these waters. Joint Naval and Law Enforcement coupled with maybe something like a Joint Procurement of a low-cost twin turboprop Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (Defender 4000 MPA, Beech King Air 350 MPA, F-406 Caravan II MPA, etc) to be utilized by ALL these nations to provide around the clock coverage of these dangerous waters.
There are some significant changes in co-operation - certainly better than 18 months ago. Its not just an issue of patrolling though. There are some local crime and corruption issues to deal with concurrently

Also invest in a 'common' ultra fast interceptor Patrol Boat either on the civilian market or maybe a lower cost Super Dvora Mk III Interceptor PGB?
Thats attractive - but its not the whole answer. In the case of Indonesia and the Philipines there are enclaves deep within the coastal areas that are considered "no go" zones as access is not easy. Indonesia especially has a coastline that prohibits the use of fast shallow boats - and the fact that entire communities can be complicit does not help either. The problem has to be dealt with at source.

Finally some sort of helo' equipped Offshore Patrol Vessel for joint procurement. Malaysia and Australia at one point in time were planning to build a joint designed OPV.
See above. This is not a hardware problem - the capacity to sieze and sink has never been a primary problem. Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia all know where the main attacks occur - but the traffic is significant. There are over 50,000 vessel movements per year in the Malacca Straits alone. Its also a resource issue. Its also a political will and intent issue - particularly for the Indonesian Govt where its common knowledge within the industry that they have corrupt local and regional officials.

[Mercenary]

gf00... hey thanks for Thee Update! :)

I don't recall the facts about the Somali piracy incident as it was in the local paper and well let's just say it's not anywhere as detailed as the WA Post surely is. LOL

My mention of local Law Enforcement was not directed at any individual nation.

I'm well aware of the situation in Somali i.e., no government.

And yes Indonesia, and most other SE Asian nations are very corrupt, except Singapore. Even the latter are not perfect. :)

I agree this is not a hardware problem by itself. It never is. But possessing the right equipment for the specific role/mission can provide definite options to dealing with the problems of Piracy verses using obsolete tracking technology, slow patrol boats, no fixed-wing aircraft, etc. As is found in the Philippine's Military.

Working directing with the local population, developing their trust, learning to respect the innocent (don't assume their all pirates) and going after the real people is something that takes time and patience and the right connections and equipment. In other words Piracy isn't going away overnight just like Homelessness, Terrorism and numerous other social ills won't.

The respective governments need to tackle this in their own way (coastal & inshore waters) and yet also jointly in International waters. The Pirate Scum presently operate with near impunity that clearly needs to change. I think Singapore will be seriously dealing with Piracy in the coming years directly.

Acostic beam...aah ha. Well I was in the right ball park 'eh. LOL

Wow, those people were lucky. Anti-armor weapons verses passenger liner not a good mix.

[Big-E]

Mostly they carry RPGs and light machine guns, no threat to a vessle of any size.

[alexsa]

Mostly they carry RPGs and light machine guns, no threat to a vessle of any size.

Having served on merchant vessels I have some difficulty in accepting that RPGs abd even LMGs are not a threat to large vessels. Most merchant vessels are a single engine power plant and are single hulled in the way of the engine room. Sustained LMG fire or an RPG hit has the potential to stop the job.

Such attacks have an attendent fire risk. Many cargo vessels that catch fire don,t survive the experiance very well.

[Big-E]

Having served on merchant vessels I have some difficulty in accepting that RPGs abd even LMGs are not a threat to large vessels. Most merchant vessels are a single engine power plant and are single hulled in the way of the engine room. Sustained LMG fire or an RPG hit has the potential to stop the job.

Such attacks have an attendent fire risk. Many cargo vessels that catch fire don,t survive the experiance very well.

I suppose they wouldn't be firing at the hull then, b/c they couldn't penetrate that. If they fire at the superstructure I suppose a fire could be started there but they would have to get a hit on something flammable. All the engine rooms I have ever been in have a HALO fire suppression system which is pretty effective at putting them out. I guess your merchants don't have this???:confused:

[contedicavour]

Less than a month ago an Italian merchant vessel was approached by several fast boats with tens of guerrillas with AK47 and RPG7 and apparently even 81mm mortars. This happened in the proximity of Bosaso, the putative capital of the Puntland, a breakaway bit of Somalia. Luckily an Italian frigate was nearby and sent a couple of helos with heavy machine guns on the sides and the Somali boats retreated.
Let's hope the Somali transitional government manages one day to retake control of their coastline, since it is after all in the warlords' own interest to make international trade safer, so that they can pocket customs duties and make foreign fishermen pay for the right to fish in Somali waters.

cheers

[long live usa]

i once read somwere that an old man(in some sort of yacht) with a 12 gage shot gun scared of 2 boats(small ones)full of somalian bandits armed with ak-47s thats tells you somthing about modern pirates!:lol3

[Big-E]

i once read somwere that an old man(in some sort of yacht) with a 12 gage shot gun scared of 2 boats(small ones)full of somalian bandits armed with ak-47s thats tells you somthing about modern pirates!:lol3

I don't know if this is myth or fact but the point still remains, these men are cowards either way. I think if these merchants carried a couple of M-60s to hook up on the rails they could probably discourage these wussies.:finger

[gf0012-aust]

i once read somwere that an old man(in some sort of yacht) with a 12 gage shot gun scared of 2 boats(small ones)full of somalian bandits armed with ak-47s thats tells you somthing about modern pirates!:lol3

Thats few and far between. Certainly the IMB evidence shows that they are willing to kill crew to get what they want. Thats why its the bigger vessels that are preferred targets as they often carry the payroll for their crews on board.

A months wages for a typical 8,000t plus vessel is subsyantial - it will feed and sustain the typical 2 team pirate group for a year.

small boats are not seen as worthwhile targets by the main cohort of pirates - they would be attacked on an opportunity level by smaller pirate groups - but certainly not by the syndicated elements.

[gf0012-aust]

I think if these merchants carried a couple of M-60s to hook up on the rails they could probably discourage these wussies.:finger

The problems are significant though:

the major insurance companies prohibit carriage of firearms - even in the past at least the purser carried a sidearm.
each ship that sails is of a known quantity. the syndicates have port authority insiders who tell them what cargoes are being carried - and if that ship has a security detail (armed or otherwise)
In the Straits, the pirates know where the bottlenecks occur and where the ships have to slow down for congested traffic - this is where they are most vulnerable. Pirate crews are known to have shot crew on stern watch - and they can do it from a distance as there is minimal assisted light available. They pick ships lacking rear spotlights, rear firehoses etc... as they are already informed by various insiders in some of the main ports. They pick nights where moonlight is minimal
a lot of the non lethal weapons available are not for sale to smaller companies as they are huge security items - and thus not for sale to everybody/company. LRAD being a perfect example of this.
Cost of security teamsOne of the things that my company offered to some shipping companies was qualified security teams. These were teams who had experienced people in place, they all had done opposed boardings, they all had relevant military or para-military exp (eg ex-Royal Marines, Dutch Marines, Water Police, CoastGuard, Customs, Narcotics, Ghurkas etc....) Everybody wants to have them but they are stuck with basic issues eg:

does insurance pick up the security tab?
does the carrier pick up the security tab?
does the customer (goods owner) pick up the security tab?
does the insurance company make it a condition of carriage? - thus driving up costs of cargo across carrier and customer spectrums
will the end-user/customer be willing to pick up the additional insurance burden?
do security crews have to be dropped off in Int'l waters so as to not breach some countries firearms regulations?
does a mother ship have to be employed so as to enable the above to occur with a minimum of grief? ie essentially an offshore armoury.
practicality of above. different countries have different regs. its not viable to have an armoury in Int'l waters relevant to all bordering countries
transit time impediments
SecDet crew reload impediments
rotation of SecDet crews
absolute SecDet costs - these guys are professionals, they're not cheap and the team leaders are paid commensurately. On a large container ship that cost can be absorbed - but a fully qualified team of 5-6 people? Its still not cheap. The smaller the vessel (eg 500tonne-8000tonnes), the more likely it won't be guarded and the higher the chances that it will get targetted.
the ugly hydra of risk/return. some owners would rather gamble
Its an ugly topic, but all 3 and 3.5 parties need to be in agreement.

[long live usa]

I don't know if this is myth or fact but the point still remains, these men are cowards either way. I think if these merchants carried a couple of M-60s to hook up on the rails they could probably discourage these wussies.:finger
this is no joke it was actually two yachts one old man with a 12 gage fired off 6 rounds and the other boat rammed one of the small speed boats and scared emm out of there
about the M-60s how about phaylanx CIWS:hehe as for small craft how about getting a 50 cal. rifle and blowing a couple holes right threw the hulls of those pirate craft:sniper

[long live usa]

Thats few and far between. Certainly the IMB evidence shows that they are willing to kill crew to get what they want. Thats why its the bigger vessels that are preferred targets as they often carry the payroll for their crews on board.

A months wages for a typical 8,000t plus vessel is subsyantial - it will feed and sustain the typical 2 team pirate group for a year.

small boats are not seen as worthwhile targets by the main cohort of pirates - they would be attacked on an opportunity level by smaller pirate groups - but certainly not by the syndicated elements.
i ounce read that 3 pirate speed boats atacked a family in the gulf of aden and killed them including a little girl:( the pigs stole small items and left i dont know what that family was doing in the gulf but those pirates are nothing but cowardice pigs

[Big-E]

this is no joke it was actually two yachts one old man with a 12 gage fired off 6 rounds and the other boat rammed one of the small speed boats and scared emm out of there
about the M-60s how about phaylanx CIWS:hehe as for small craft how about getting a 50 cal. rifle and blowing a couple holes right threw the hulls of those pirate craft:sniper

Vulcan-Phalanx on a merchant ship:confused: As cool as that would be I think we are getting a little carried away. They need something they can stow away. Having someone trained on the Barret .50cal sniper wouldn't really be effective against a fiber glass hull, it would still float. I still say having a couple M-60s that can easily be stowed would make mince-meat out of a pirate craft trying to board your ship. You might not sink them but you will kill everyone on deck, then you can turn and ram the bastards!

[long live usa]

Vulcan-Phalanx on a merchant ship:confused: As cool as that would be I think we are getting a little carried away. They need something they can stow away. Having someone trained on the Barret .50cal sniper wouldn't really be effective against a fiber glass hull, it would still float. I still say having a couple M-60s that can easily be stowed would make mince-meat out of a pirate craft trying to board your ship. You might not sink them but you will kill everyone on deck, then you can turn and ram the bastards!
why stop with Phalanx! how about launching a few harpoon missles right up there @ss!and while were at it how about putting on a 100mm gun and a couple of helos with rocket pods and 50.cals that would really give the bastards a scare!!!!!

[gf0012-aust]

Vulcan-Phalanx on a merchant ship:confused: As cool as that would be I think we are getting a little carried away. They need something they can stow away.

The problem is insurance provisions. some of the largest shipping companies in the world are not carrying as they will lose insurance. there are logistics, training, qualification, and regulation issues which make insurance companies (and the shipping carriers themselves) nervous about armed crew.

Having someone trained on the Barret .50cal sniper wouldn't really be effective against a fiber glass hull, it would still float. I still say having a couple M-60s that can easily be stowed would make mince-meat out of a pirate craft trying to board your ship. You might not sink them but you will kill everyone on deck, then you can turn and ram the bastards!

Any shot needs to be aimed at the engine, engine block or at the crew. That also requires compliance with Int'l Maritime law provisions.

If you want to comprehend the difficulty of engaging a bobbing target - let alone a bobbing target at speed - then look no further than RAMICs

There are some fundamental issues to be addressed even if weapons are allowed on board (which on 90% of properly formed companys is highly unlikely)

ROE's
Personnel trg issues
liability issues
training on zones of engagement. eg, as much as one might say "target any unauthorised vessel that closes within RPG shooting range" - then that automatically makes transit of some parts of the Malaccas impossible to manage.Personally I think the insurance companies need to change their attitude of they're serious.

This is not only a problem relating to shooters, its a problem that extends right into regional and national govt.

[Big-E]

The problem is insurance provisions. some of the largest shipping companies in the world are not carrying as they will lose insurance. there are logistics, training, qualification, and regulation issues which make insurance companies (and the shipping carriers themselves) nervous about armed crew.

With the rising cost of lost shipments from piracy, I think having a few men trained in arms would lower your insurance premiums.




Any shot needs to be aimed at the engine, engine block or at the crew. That also requires compliance with Int'l Maritime law provisions.

I know the 7.62mm NATO of an M-60 can penetrate an outboard casing and will kill anything on deck. Has maritime law changed so much since WWII that you aren't allowed to arm a merchant ship?


If you want to comprehend the difficulty of engaging a bobbing target - let alone a bobbing target at speed - then look no further than RAMICs

Using a underwater Mine targeting gun system is not quite the same as hitting a surface target. Especially one that has to stop to board the vessel.


There are some fundamental issues to be addressed even if weapons are allowed on board (which on 90% of properly formed companys is highly iunlikely)

ROE's
Personnel trg issues
liability issues
training on zones of engagement. eg, as much as one might say "target any unauthorised vessel that closes within RPG shooting range" - then that automatically makes transit of some parts of the Malaccas impossible to manage.Personally I think the insurance companies need to change their attitude of they're serious.

This is not only a problem relating to shooters, its a problem that extends right into regional and national govt.

1) I think protecting your investment would raise ROE.
2) What targeting issues are there? You get shot at and you shoot back, it's that simple.
3) The liability is minimized if you hire active duty soldiers from the corporate country to handle the weapons. If they are authorized to be there by the country then this gives them the status as military interdictor combatants.
4) Again, you don't enage until hostile intention has been declared by the opposing vessel, this isn't rocket science.

I'm sure its not as simple as I state but it should be!

[Whiskyjack]

I remember a news article on customs and small craft visiting NZ, part of the article was weapons that were held by customs and returned as the craft left NZ. They did in fact hold a .50 sniper rifle that came off a yacht no larger than 60ft, as well as an assualt rifle and various pistols. Would come as a nasty surprise no doubt!

[gf0012-aust]

With the rising cost of lost shipments from piracy, I think having a few men trained in arms would lower your insurance premiums.

there are a minority of vessels that do this - and as it is they are going to be the vessels that get left alone. The syndicated pirates intel network on the docks and in harbourmaster facilities is very very good.


I know the 7.62mm NATO of an M-60 can penetrate an outboard casing and will kill anything on deck. Has maritime law changed so much since WWII that you aren't allowed to arm a merchant ship?

blame the insurance companies - most ships would love to have an onboard lethal weapons response.

Using a underwater Mine targeting gun system is not quite the same as hitting a surface target. Especially one that has to stop to board the vessel.

the issue is stopping them at range - not when they are in shooting range. thats why some of the non lethal technology is designed to engage at "nn" feet/mtres. its also easier to shoot a submerged mine that is immobile than a fast mover under intelligent control

1) I think protecting your investment would raise ROE.
certainly there are elements within industry who never fail to point out the logic. the blame is evenly proportioned though

2) What targeting issues are there? You get shot at and you shoot back, it's that simple.

bit hard to shoot back if you're not carrying because your insurance company will knock off your liability

3) The liability is minimized if you hire active duty soldiers from the corporate country to handle the weapons. If they are authorized to be there by the country then this gives them the status as military interdictor combatants.

the problem is that this has been universally rejected and is resource intensive.

imagine embarking/disembarking and crewing 50,000 ship movements per year in the Malaccas alone. its a nightmare, eg, who pays for crewing when you're passing through 3 different countries territorial waters? The margins on freight are tight - and none of the 3 levels of responsibility of carriage and delivery want to wear the expense.

4) Again, you don't enage until hostile intention has been declared by the opposing vessel, this isn't rocket science.

hostile intent is often not made until time of board - you cannot set an exclusion zone around a non military asset. any boat has right of passage and freedom of passage in int'l waters (or national waters for that matter). In national waters you would be able to establish local waterways compliance issues - but then its a practicality issue as well.

I'm sure its not as simple as I state but it should be!

It should be simple - but it isn't ;)

[gf0012-aust]

I remember a news article on customs and small craft visiting NZ, part of the article was weapons that were held by customs and returned as the craft left NZ. They did in fact hold a .50 sniper rifle that came off a yacht no larger than 60ft, as well as an assualt rifle and various pistols. Would come as a nasty surprise no doubt!

and thats a significant problem. as soon as you enter national waters you are subject to that countries common law requirements on weapons ownership and handling. even then, a high percentile of pirate seizures and attacks happen not only in national waters - but also dockside. strange but true. ;) The IMB data is quite clear on types and numbers of events occurring.

thus, if you unload weapons in international waters, then you still have to recover them when commencing the return journey. that means that a vessel standing off as the floating dispensary could be in a holding pattern for 2-3 days whilst cargo shift is underway. its an ugly impractical solution.

quite frankly, the whole thing could be resolved if all maritime nations agreed that vessels in transit are allowed to use reasonable force (;)) when engaged in lawful transit. that means that weapons could and should be allowed but locked in the vessel armoury when dockside.

weapons could thus be used if contained within the nominated vessel of carriage under the same provisions as bonding a declared customs area.

this would also make the insurance companies less anally retentive about onboard weapons.

[gf0012-aust]

Just as a side note to my prev reference to non lethal devices. This is similar to the device that my daughter uses on board a cruise liner as part of her security brief.

U.S. Army Purchases HMMWV-Mounted LRAD 500s for Select Combat Units in Iraq

By American Technology Corporation

URL of this article: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/printer/printer_5817.php
Mon, 1 May 2006, 02:24

SAN DIEGO: American Technology Corporation (ATC), a leading innovator of commercial, government, and military directed sound products and solutions, announced today it has received new orders totaling over $300,000 for its proprietary Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) 500 from the U.S. Army's Rapid Equipping Force through ATC's reseller, ADS, Inc. The majority of the LRADs are slated for use by select combat units in Iraq protecting Army convoys.

LRAD is designed to communicate with authority and exceptionally high intelligibility in a 15-30-degree beam in excess of 500 meters, and has the capability of emitting powerful warning tones to influence behavior, gain compliance, and determine intent. LRADs are currently deployed in a variety of government, military, and commercial applications around the world, including military deployments with the U.S. Marine Corps, U.S. Army, and U.S. Navy in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

"These orders are a result of our working exclusively with the Army's Rapid Equipping Force to deploy LRAD 500 evaluation units into northern Iraq last fall," said A.J. Ballard, ATC's vice president of government and force protection systems. "These units are designed for integration with the weapon on the HMMWV turret utilizing ATC's custom HMMWV mounting system. This LRAD 500 configuration provides the operator with a critical tool to hail, notify, warn, to gain compliance, and determine intent in host nation languages before escalating to a non-lethal or lethal response against unauthorized individuals or groups approaching Army convoys on foot or in vehicles.

"Detailed reports from Iraq indicate that both the LRAD 1000 and LRAD 500 have been very effective in a host of land- and sea-based applications, including marine interdiction operations, controlling maritime vessel traffic, protecting critical oil infrastructure in the Persian Gulf, check point crowd control, internment facilities, convoy protection, and as a secondary means of long range communication. The integration of LRAD 500s onto select HMMWV's will provide a significant enhancement to the critical mission of convoy protection and, more importantly, has the potential to save lives on both sides of the device," Ballard concluded.


American Technology Corporation is shaping the future of sound through its proprietary directed sound products and technologies, which include: the award-winning HSS (HyperSonic Sound technology), LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) products family, NeoPlanar products family, Sound Vector technology, and others. The Company is establishing a strong portfolio of patents, trademarks, and intellectual property, including over 320 U.S. and foreign patents and pending patent applications to date.

[Wooki]

blame the insurance companies - most ships would love to have an onboard lethal weapons response.

Which insurance companies are we talking about?

Most Ship Owners use P&I clubs and that basically means they are in a self insured group.

For example: Exxon was in the big dog house with other Oil Transporters when the Exxon Valdiz hit a bump in the road. It placed a huge stress upon the others in the insured group to fix Exxon's stuff up.

So blaming the insurance companies is not really the way to go. If the company was serious, it has a voice with the collective and they can lobby. And it is the collective who would decide whether it is a good thing or not. It comes down to the man/woman at the top as to whether they are going to try and get it passed or not.

So my point being if someone on the boat/ship comes back to you and says "blame the insurance companies", it really means the higher ups in the company have no idea. e.g. Corporate Lawyer named Joe sitting next to CEO Jack.


cheers


w

[gf0012-aust]

Which insurance companies are we talking about?



2 of the largest insurance companies in the world - including 2 of the largest passenger carrying companies in the world.

They've made it patently clear about shipboard weapons. In fact it has been an issue with a number of western countries where their Federal Maritime Services have tried to get some kind of consensus on standardising issues.

[Paxter]

Piracy is on the rise all across the planet. It happens everywhere from the Red Sea to Malacca Straits (Malaysia)

particulary down in South East Asian waters. Often the 'victims' are machine gunned where they stand. Stolen Vessels are repainted and later sold on the black market. Big Biz in some parts of the world.

Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia need to put aside their petty differences and come together with a solidified stance on countering and ultimately reduce the increasing number of Pirate attacks in these waters. Joint Naval and Law Enforcement coupled with maybe something like a Joint Procurement of a low-cost twin turboprop Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (Defender 4000 MPA, Beech King Air 350 MPA, F-406 Caravan II MPA, etc) to be utilized by ALL these nations to provide around the clock coverage of these dangerous waters.

Finally some sort of helo' equipped Offshore Patrol Vessel for joint procurement. Malaysia and Australia at one point in time were planning to build a joint designed OPV.

There is more to that than corruption or lack of ships. bare in mind there is over 30,000 islands + between malaysia,indonesia,thailand,singapore, and the philippines imagine western europe where 80% is under water... and its full of tropical jungles. Air patrols (which we do with singapore) we use beachcraft for those patrols btw. Are insufficiant and unable to detact them if they have landed on one of this islands. Oh to make matters worse 80% of those islands are uninhibited.

borders are also a prob as u cant just send a meko-100 into indonesia at ramming speed. Singapore navy is no doubt the best in SEA, then comes msia which btw we DO have 4 Meko-100 with another 21 being built armed with AgustaWestland Super Lynx 300. Last year we saw the creation of the malaysian coast guard to help the navy patrol the seas.

Apart from this the indonesian navy is poorly maintained due to the lack of funds, and the southern philippines is having an insurgancy.

btw malaysia dont own the whole of the malacca Straits its shared with indonesia. If they did im sure we would have put toll gates on both sides of the straits :D And check your data about pirate attacks in the malacca straits it has gone down by half.

[contedicavour]

There is more to that than corruption or lack of ships. bare in mind there is over 30,000 islands + between malaysia,indonesia,thailand,singapore, and the philippines imagine western europe where 80% is under water... and its full of tropical jungles. Air patrols (which we do with singapore) we use beachcraft for those patrols btw. Are insufficiant and unable to detact them if they have landed on one of this islands. Oh to make matters worse 80% of those islands are uninhibited.

borders are also a prob as u cant just send a meko-100 into indonesia at ramming speed. Singapore navy is no doubt the best in SEA, then comes msia which btw we DO have 4 Meko-100 with another 21 being built armed with AgustaWestland Super Lynx 300. Last year we saw the creation of the malaysian coast guard to help the navy patrol the seas.

Apart from this the indonesian navy is poorly maintained due to the lack of funds, and the southern philippines is having an insurgancy.

btw malaysia dont own the whole of the malacca Straits its shared with indonesia. If they did im sure we would have put toll gates on both sides of the straits :D And check your data about pirate attacks in the malacca straits it has gone down by half.

Interesting analysis, however I'm still amazed those navies spend more money procuring submarines or LPDs instead of reinforcing those assets more suited to defending their sea lanes. Indonesia is updating its 2 T209 subs in South Korea as we speak, Malaysia is procuring 2 Scorpene state-of-the-art SSKs, Singapore is taking 2 vastergotland SSK from the Swedish navy on top of the 4 Challengers (old ex Sjoormen Swedish SSK), and Thailand is considering acquisition... This is nonsense in terms of priority setting.
Let's just hope the new Delta (slightly smaller and modified Lafayette) FFGs will be used by Singapore to help patrol the neighbor's sea lanes... though I doubt it will ever happen.

cheers

[Salty Dog]

Pirate attacks increase in Santos

Press articles dated March 7, 2008 report that over eight days, three ships have been the targets of pirate attacks in the Port of Santos. The increasing frequency of these attacks could increase costs and hurt traffic in the port.

The two most recent attacks occurred Tuesday morning, against Brazilian and Danish flagged vessels, eight days after the first attack of the year.

On all three occasions, the pirates followed the same pattern. According to Maritime Agency Trade Association of São Paulo (SINDAMAR - Sindicato das Agências de Navegação Marítima do Estado de São Paulo) vice president José Roque, they always attack ships anchored at the approaches to the port, early in the morning, and act in groups of six to eight.

"Usually they're armed. On the last ship, they took an officer hostage."

The pirates, who act randomly, target containers. Since some are opened without anything taken, it is believed that an organized gang in involved.

The attacks have grown in number over the last two years: thirteen in 2006; nine last year.

According to Roque, the robberies generate increased costs through higher freight rates and insurance premiums, hurting the country's competiveness in the international market.

__________________________________________________ __________________

Sexta-Feira, 7 de Março de 2008, 20:55

Cresce número de ataques de piratas a navios

De A Tribuna On-line

Em apenas oito dias, três navios foram alvos de piratas no Porto de Santos. Os constantes ataques às embarcações podem aumentar os custos e prejudicar a movimentação.

Os dois últimos roubos foram registrados na madrugada da última terça-feira, em navios de bandeira brasileira e dinamarquesa, oito dias depois do primeiro ataque deste ano.

Nas três ocasiões, os bandidos agiram da mesma forma. Segundo José Roque, vice-presidente do Sindamar, eles sempre atacam os navios fundeados na barra, geralmente de madrugada, e atuam em grupos de seis a oito pessoas.

“Geralmente, também estão armados. No último navio, eles fizeram refém o oficial ”, cometa Roque.

Os contêineres são os alvos dos piratas, que atacam de forma aleatória. Como alguns são abertos sem que nada seja levado, acredita-se que se trate de uma quadrilha organizada.

Os ataques passaram a ser mais frequentes nos dois últimos anos. Em 2006, 13 navios foram alvos de ladrões, contra nove no ano passado.

Aumento de custos

De acordo com Roque, os roubos geram mais custos, em decorrência da elevação do frete marítimo, além do aumento das franquias do seguro, podendo prejudicar a competitividade do País no mercado internacional. As informações são da TV Tribuna.

[alexsa]

You may find this interesting:

2008 piracy map (to date)

http://www.icc-ccs.org/extra/display.php?yr=2008

and weekly piracy report

http://www.icc-ccs.org/images/buttons/piracy-anim.gif

[Salty Dog]

You may find this interesting:

2008 piracy map (to date)

http://www.icc-ccs.org/extra/display.php?yr=2008

and weekly piracy report

http://www.icc-ccs.org/images/buttons/piracy-anim.gif

Thank you Alexsa! This a very useful website.

Cheers!

[gf0012-aust]

It's an excellent site. My daughter does security on cruise ships via the med and east africa, and she's always using data from them for updates.

she was on one of the ships that was RPG'd last year.

[Lostfleet]

There are a lot of people who are suggesting adding weapons to merchant shipping. Whatever you get on a ship, M60, CIWS, Harpoon or even a platoon of ex-military operatives, it will just be a temporary solution. Pirates will just get armed better for the next time.

If we look at the 17th century piracy in the Carribean, merchant shipping had cannons and all other sort of weapons on board but it did not help that much to prevent piracy.

There are long-terim solutions like improving economies in the pirate infested areas and having better organization of the improved security forces.

However for the short term solutions well, this is going to sound extremely silly and a lot of you are going to argue that it is economically a failure, but bring back the good old convoy system. Not neccessarily with a military escort, but let a few ships travel together.

[alexsa]

There are a lot of people who are suggesting adding weapons to merchant shipping. Whatever you get on a ship, M60, CIWS, Harpoon or even a platoon of ex-military operatives, it will just be a temporary solution. Pirates will just get armed better for the next time.

If we look at the 17th century piracy in the Carribean, merchant shipping had cannons and all other sort of weapons on board but it did not help that much to prevent piracy.

There are long-terim solutions like improving economies in the pirate infested areas and having better organization of the improved security forces.

However for the short term solutions well, this is going to sound extremely silly and a lot of you are going to argue that it is economically a failure, but bring back the good old convoy system. Not neccessarily with a military escort, but let a few ships travel together.

A lot of suggestion but not much official support for the mainstream cargo vessels (it is a bit different for PAX vessels). The sheer number of ships will preclude the arming of all of them and to be blundly honest most crews wouel more of a hazard to them selves if given guns and the number of 'operatives' will have a very significant econmoic impact.

Improving the econmoics will be a very long term solution, if achiveable. Most of the burgeoning developing economies are not providng benifits for a large proportion of the population (causing a large degree of resentment and coruption which all contribute to the pirate problem). Escorted convoys are not an option, however, the solution does rest in maritime policing of the pirate zones. Building up these abilities for national forces in territorial water and removing pursuit restrictions in contigous zones by any international warships will help. However, on the latter point it would be better if the ships doing the patrolling and chasing of areas such as the Malacca Strait were not USN as this would be seen as interferacne even though such action would be entirley justifed.

[gf0012-aust]

There are a lot of people who are suggesting adding weapons to merchant shipping. Whatever you get on a ship, M60, CIWS, Harpoon or even a platoon of ex-military operatives, it will just be a temporary solution. Pirates will just get armed better for the next time.

They're not allowed to carry lethal weapons on the majority of recognised fleets.

They do however have other solutions, and thats not an item for discussion in here.

[Lostfleet]

I remember reading an article I think it was in New York Times back about piracy in 2000, they talked how the pirates operated, took over ships added new registiration and etc but they also talked about a Private Military Company that offer protection to ships. ( they would storm in when a call came in, where the ship was located)

do you guys know anything about this?

[gvg]

For information on piracy you can also look at the site of the International Maritime Organization.

The information about piracy starts here: http://www.imo.org/Facilitation/mainframe.asp?topic_id=362

[gf0012-aust]

I remember reading an article I think it was in New York Times back about piracy in 2000, they talked how the pirates operated, took over ships added new registiration and etc but they also talked about a Private Military Company that offer protection to ships. ( they would storm in when a call came in, where the ship was located)

do you guys know anything about this?

There's a UK owned company that does specials and operates out of Singapore. Staff vary with routes, but core operators are ex ghurkas and usually ex-RM team leaders.

The number of effective companies that do this kind of work is less than the number of fingers on one hand. There are quite a few dodgey ones.

[Salty Dog]

For information on piracy you can also look at the site of the International Maritime Organization.

The information about piracy starts here: http://www.imo.org/Facilitation/mainframe.asp?topic_id=362

What about actions against offshore oil rigs or platforms? Can these be classified as piracy or terrorist acts?

[Lostfleet]

There's a UK owned company that does specials and operates out of Singapore. Staff vary with routes, but core operators are ex ghurkas and usually ex-RM team leaders.

The number of effective companies that do this kind of work is less than the number of fingers on one hand. There are quite a few dodgey ones.

I guess piracy is an issue with its own 9/11 bound to happen, like a big tanker or a cruise ship blowing up with mass casualites, only after than people are going to take it as a serious threat and take actions to prevent it.

[gvg]

What about actions against offshore oil rigs or platforms? Can these be classified as piracy or terrorist acts?
My personal opinion is that it depends on the motives of those taking these actions.

But I now very little about piracy, I just came across the website on another forum that discussed the deployment of HNLMS Evertsen to Somalia to protect ships from the UN World Food Program. There was some nice info on it, so I thought i'd share it here.

[gf0012-aust]

What about actions against offshore oil rigs or platforms? Can these be classified as piracy or terrorist acts?

I think its regarded as an act of terrorism. Most facilities in vulnerable areas have contingencies. They certainly do in the Gulf.

[gf0012-aust]

I guess piracy is an issue with its own 9/11 bound to happen, like a big tanker or a cruise ship blowing up with mass casualites, only after than people are going to take it as a serious threat and take actions to prevent it.

It's been taken seriously ever since the Achille Lauro. A significant number of modern militaries escalated their relationships with SAS after Achille Lauro to develop their own water capability.

My daughter says that they constantly have specwarrie and special police training ops occurring on ferry jobs ..... She's got quite a few happy snaps of her with the water, police and commando teams from over a dozen countries.

[lobbie111]

I remember hearing of an incident where a bunch of Ex British SAS commandoes decided to go sailing around the world and they were attacked by a group of pirates...Needless to say those priates will never mess with that ship, I heard that one of the Ex-Comandoes managed to gain control of one of the pirates small craft and was shooting the pirates RPG-7's at the other pirate vessels...

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[ROCK45]

Maybe the "Idiot" Malaysian ship's Captain shouldn't have got to close.

Pirates seize Malaysian tanker off Somalia's coast
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_as/malaysia_somalia_pirates

[AegisFC]

Merged threads.

[Grand Danois]

Maybe the "Idiot" Malaysian ship's Captain shouldn't have got to close.

Pirates seize Malaysian tanker off Somalia's coast
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_as/malaysia_somalia_pirates

Last year a Danish vessel, Danica White, was hijacked 205 nm off the coast of Somalia. The pirates work from motherships.

[ROCK45]

In 2008 one would think something like this couldn't happen but this naval guy in a different forum told me it happens a lot more then people think or even hear about it. Sometimes it goes unreported because the shippers don't what to make public what was on the ship. The cargo is insured as well in most cases so ship owners sometimes only care about getting back there ships it can be complex.

In the information age couldn't these small boats once the pirates are paid off just be followed once safely away from the hijacked ship be nicely taken out? I think after five or six pirate boats are taken out the word would spread and being pirate isn't any fun anymore.

Traps could be set too but only if the pirates aren't tipped off (hint) Some shipments aren't meant to go through customs, its a nasty world we live in.

[AegisFC]

A few weeks old but relevant to the Somalian pirate discussion.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/06/america/NA-Canada-Navy-Somalia.php

The HMCS Ville de Quebec is escorting food shipments to Somalia. This is a good move but I doubt it will do anything to really help the situation.

[jimmyttl]

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/9/2/nation/22221624&sec=nation

This is interesting. It said pirates along the Somalia coastline are targeting ships based on nationalities i.e. Muslim countries as it contains Halal food rations.

Apparently the pirates have name that sounds rather legitimate like coast guard or maritime navy. lol. So much for PR.

The most interesting part is how Malaysia decides to send in 2 warships with commandos in it when the country itself is advocating neutrality and non-aggression pact, does it mean they will get in there hot and rescue the hostage out ala Israel?

[John Sansom]

Go get 'em, Malaysia!! Wait a minute. Is that Canadian frigate on station yet? And what orders is she operating under...precisely, that is?

[AegisFC]

There is already a thread in the Naval Forum on Piracy.
Moving threads.

[John Sansom]

This business of the Ville de Quebec escorting seaborne food and relief supplies to Somali ports as a "sole" function had me scratching my head when I first heard it. If, for instance the VdQ is on escort duty and she and her charge come across pirates attacking another vessel, what's the drill? Hopefully, she'd reach out with whatever armaments and manoeuvres are up to the job, while calling for assistance. The VdQ is a pretty agile vesel and should be able to handle a double-duty scenario without compromising the safety of the vessel under escort (just so long as she doesn't have to report back to Ottawa for permission). Really...I was originally wondering whether her standing orders are open to flexible interpretation in tnis kind of situation.

[ampraxius]

i think the Malaysian ships will probably be a warning sign to let our ships and crew go or else we will send in the paskal. If they're true muslims they won't attack ships and loot them for 'halal' meals, especially during ramadhan.

Let's just hope they release the ships and crews well before the navy and paskal are utilise.

[nevidimka]

I'm waiting for some action. Lets see how good the Paskal or the navy is in dealing with a real situation. :)


Btw what type of navy ships did the Malaysian Navy send?

[ampraxius]

I'm waiting for some action. Lets see how good the Paskal or the navy is in dealing with a real situation. :)


Btw what type of navy ships did the Malaysian Navy send?

I have no idea but most probably frigates gathering from this article here (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1428987.php/Malaysian_deploys_three_navy_ships_to_Gulf_of_Aden _). Since officially they're not on a rescue mission but rather a more 'monitoring' mission in order to protect other Malaysian ships sailing through.

I would much prefer if the pirates just release the crews if not the ships. If they're unwilling to release the ships then i guess we can just give it to them and 'harpoon' them. But in all seriousness, since this is the holy month of Ramadhan i would hope both signs show some respect and come to a peaceful resolution.

But since they are the aggressors i don't think many Malaysians will have any problem using force to deal with them.

[John Sansom]

Whatever the Malaysians do, it will set the precedent for future action in the area. A "robust" action successfuly carried out will more than likley meet with general approval in the public opinion field. The same action unsuccessfully carried out will have the naysayers and handwringers out in force with the pirates being seen as the aggrieved party...and with promises from the rescue and law-of-the-sea enforcement folk never to do anything like that again. True, this is only an opinion, but recent and not-so-recent history has convinced me that this is a more than likely outcome. Let's hope a sensibly "robust" effort is on the Malaysian horizon....and is the yardarm still the final destination for apprehended pirates?

[nevidimka]

I have no idea but most probably frigates gathering from this article here (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1428987.php/Malaysian_deploys_three_navy_ships_to_Gulf_of_Aden _). Since officially they're not on a rescue mission but rather a more 'monitoring' mission in order to protect other Malaysian ships sailing through.

I would much prefer if the pirates just release the crews if not the ships. If they're unwilling to release the ships then i guess we can just give it to them and 'harpoon' them. But in all seriousness, since this is the holy month of Ramadhan i would hope both signs show some respect and come to a peaceful resolution.

But since they are the aggressors i don't think many Malaysians will have any problem using force to deal with them.


Sending frigates would mean a greatly reduced force back home. Coz face it the Malaysian Navy is not teeming with frigates. I think Malaysia has about 2-4 frigates operable right now?

[icelord]

This business of the Ville de Quebec escorting seaborne food and relief supplies to Somali ports as a "sole" function had me scratching my head when I first heard it. If, for instance the VdQ is on escort duty and she and her charge come across pirates attacking another vessel, what's the drill? Hopefully, she'd reach out with whatever armaments and manoeuvres are up to the job, while calling for assistance. The VdQ is a pretty agile vesel and should be able to handle a double-duty scenario without compromising the safety of the vessel under escort (just so long as she doesn't have to report back to Ottawa for permission). Really...I was originally wondering whether her standing orders are open to flexible interpretation in tnis kind of situation.

Maritime law would come into effect. If a ship is in distress and a navy vessel is within range and able to assist by law it is supposed to aid in anyway possible...unless it interferes with its current mission,kinda like a footnote on that law. plus it would look really bad if they refused to help.

[StingrayOZ]

Prirates will go for anything they think they can get away with..

In WWII in the pacific they would attack naval vessels destroyer and larger even when they have a full compliment of watch on duty. Attack would not be a daylight shoot out, but board at night stab and steal.

Where was it I heard that some pirates have shot at naval vessels with a 5"?
As mentioned, some areas even US warships would not be suitable. With local communities supporting the pirates, local knowledge of waterways and not suitable for a Burke.

Most round the worlder's take a fairly decent selections of arms. Which gets them in trouble at some ports. 30-40 footers with say 3 shotguns, 2 high powered rifles (.308 or larger) and a .45 pistol for each crew member. Hence why smaller vessels are generally not worth the effort.

Its these larger vessels, loaded with cash, supplies, cargo, worth millions as a ship on the black market.

[DefConGuru]

Just patrol your waters with a few AEW&C's and send in a few fighters to strafe their dinghy and mission accomplished. Even if it's in international waters no one is going to mourn the loss of professional looters. If your nation is facing pressure from pirates you know that you have a problem in awareness/response though it is easily rectifiable.

[swerve]

Just patrol your waters with a few AEW&C's and send in a few fighters to strafe their dinghy and mission accomplished. Even if it's in international waters no one is going to mourn the loss of professional looters. If your nation is facing pressure from pirates you know that you have a problem in awareness/response though it is easily rectifiable.
And where do you bases these "few" AEW&C aircraft? And who has a few which can be spared for anti-piracy patrols in all the hot spots? And where do you base these (relatively short-range) fighters?

[ROCK45]

I see Spain getting involved which is a good thing but where will the P-3 Orion operate from?

Spain to patrol against pirates off Somalia
Wed 17 Sep 2008, 15:54 GMT
[-] Text [+]

MADRID, Sept 17 (Reuters) - Spain will send a military aircraft to patrol the waters off the coast of Somalia to protect ships from pirates, the Defence Ministry said on Wednesday.

The plane, which will carry 90 Spanish soldiers, will reach the patrol area by the end of the week, the ministry said in a news release. It will operate from a base in Djibouti.

The move came after French commandos on Tuesday freed two French tourists held for ransom on their yacht off the African country's coast. In April, crew members of a Spanish fishing boat were freed by pirates in the area after payment of a $1.2 million ransom, according to a Somali official.

The P-3 Orion plane, designed for maritime patrol and reconnaissance, will collect information on the movements of pirates to relay to a European Union task force formed to work against piracy off the Horn of Africa. (Reporting by Paul Day, editing by Robert Hart)

Link
http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnLH659451.html

[kato]

It says right there it will operate from Djibouti...

Afaik, the Allied airfleet there currently roughly consists of:

Fighterbombers: 7 Mirage 2000C; 3 Mirage 2000D
Maritime Patrol: 5-6 P-3C; 1 ATL2
Transport: 1-2 C-130; 1 C-160R
Helicopters: 5-6 UH-60; 7 SA.330B; 3 SA.341F; 1-2 AS.555UN
U(C)AVs: small number of Predator A/B

Presumably, the Spanish P-3 replaces the second German P-3 which only operated (unplanned) for a month or two.

[ROCK45]

Thanks kato
Had a brain lock up pretty impressive air assets lined up even helicopters on station as well.

I hope the Mirages and helicopter get a chance to take out the pirate boats in the open and have it covered in the press for all to see. Depending on the situation and types of Boats involved I think the helicopter may be more useful.

Are these forces assembled allowed to land forces in Somalia and take on the pirate on the ground if they make it back to land?

[kato]

Don't know about the (US) Blackhawks, but the French units form a definitive structure - the AS.555 is for light utility / liaison purposes, two SA.330B are for local SAR, and the other five SA.330B serve as transport helos (for about a company of soldiers) with the three SA.341F acting as scouts and light fire support (with a 20mm gun as only armament) for this air assault unit.

I have my doubts about this unit being allowed to go on raids into Somalia though, unless it's an all-out assault. In an all-out assault, there'd also be a EDIC loaded with a marine company ready in Djibouti.

For small raiding actions, on the French side, the Panther helos carried by the two Floreals acting out of La Reunion would also be likely. Interestingly, CTF-150 currently has no less than three amphibious ships assigned - a Singaporean LST (RSS Resolution), a Malaysian LST (KD Inderapura, a Newport LST) and of course the Danish Absalon - though i doubt any of them carry any troops.

That last action by France - as i understand it - was apparently undertaken with presumably two helos out of Djibouti, a German P-3C overhead for surveillance and one or two Malaysian ships (a F2000 and a Meko A100 in the area) supporting on the ground.

As we haven't heard anything about US assets being used against pirates, i'd presume the Blackhawks to be - like the Predators - primarily engaged in Yemen, perhaps also around Ogaden or Puntland.

[swerve]

Thanks kato
Are these forces assembled allowed to land forces in Somalia and take on the pirate on the ground if they make it back to land?
The government of Puntland (the source of many, perhaps most, pirate attacks) has made public statements welcoming foreign action against pirates, including attacks on them in their bases on the territory of Puntland. It publicly regrets its own inability to deal with them.

I believe the government of Puntland sees the pirates as a threat to itself. It's very weak, & they're well-armed. Foreign reduction of pirate strongholds might permit it to extend its authority over them.

I do not know the attitudes of the governments (such as they are) of Somaliland & Somalia.

However - the rules of engagement of the anti-pirate patrols are, AFAIK, more restrictive than the Puntland government would like.

[ROCK45]

Thanks swerve

I hope the pirates don't just move there base operations to Somaliland & Somalia. I would like to see the assets formed up to stay in place for a period of time and out last these modern terrors of the open seas.

[Feanor]

I just found a couple of interesting articles. In one pirates captured a Ukranian ship with 30 T-72 tanks being send over to Kenya, with spare parts and ammunition to them.

http://newsru.com/world/25sep2008/t32.html

And some Somalian pirates died of chemical burns, one month after capturing an Iranian ship. I wonder what was on that ship.

http://newsru.com/world/25sep2008/chemicals.html

[ROCK45]

I read on this Blog I found that they can't find the ship? So some ship is off loading 30 plus tanks and other arms and nobody knows where? Makes you think that there may be more interesting arms of some sorts on this special Ukranian stealth ship that just slips away?

What happen to all those French Mirage fighters and helicopters and a P-3 from Spain? Read the kato post a few before this one he gives a breakdown on assets nearby.

Being serious is there still just too much water to patrol even with the assets in region?

[StevoJH]

I read on this Blog I found that they can't find the ship? So some ship is off loading 30 plus tanks and other arms and nobody knows where? Makes you think that there may be more interesting arms of some sorts on this special Ukranian stealth ship that just slips away?

What happen to all those French Mirage fighters and helicopters and a P-3 from Spain? Read the kato post a few before this one he gives a breakdown on assets nearby.

Being serious is there still just too much water to patrol even with the assets in region?

Those P-3's and UAV's would give a lot of coverage, i don't think they'd miss much. 30 T72 tanks missing is slightly scary, considering that's half a regiments worth of tanks, even if they are outdated.

[Feanor]

That's one tank battallion of tanks. If we take a 3-battallion structure, then a regiment is 94 tanks. At least in the Russian/Soviet system. Given that the tanks are Soviet in origin, it would make sense to measure their numbers in the Soviet system.

[AegisFC]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aOIqHgAJXIlY&refer=canada
Canada is extending the deployment of the HMCS Ville de Quebec until late October. This is good since they have a decent track record against these Somali pirates.

Also apparently Russia is sending a ship as well.
http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/09/russians-deploy-to-somalia.html

[kato]

Isn't the Canadian ship primarily there to escort supply ships into Somalian ports, not to hunt pirates?

The Mirages in Djibouti are there as a ready reserve really. Consider that France has half a dozen fighters and 1,500 soldiers in a volatile situation only two borders northwest of Djibouti (read: patrolling the Chad/Darfur border).
As for the P-3... having 5-6 in Djibouti means 2 in the air at any time - at most, more likely one at any time. And the Somalian coast is damn long, especially as the US aircraft concentrate on the region between Puntland, Socotra and Yemen.

[AegisFC]

Isn't the Canadian ship primarily there to escort supply ships into Somalian ports, not to hunt pirates?


Yes, but if it was not there to escort the food shipments then the ships carrying the food would probably be attacked.
Besides the more warships in the region the better, and if a ship was attacked near the Canadians I doubt they'd ignore it.

[Feanor]

Yep. The Neustrashimuiy. A coastal patrol boat. It's being deployed independently of any international operations, under Russian command. It's a project 11540 frigate.

http://image.newsru.com/pict/id/large/1101705_20080926125013.gif

There are more details on the captured ship. It carries 33 T-72 tanks, with assorted amunition and spare parts, and a shipment of grenade launchers.

[Stryker001]

Launch a couple of missiles at the Bakara Market to let them know that uncle Ivan is in town.

They know who the Russians are becuase when the civilians 'holiday' ships go through the Russians are the ones that shoot back at the pirates, some time with RPG's etc.

I would send down some Spectre and Spooky gunships to take out the pirates.

[John Sansom]

Stryker001 has hit the nail on the head...although just a modicum of discretion should be added to his succinct advice. Perhaps the "market" should be left alone and joint Russian-NATO efforts in the area could also serve as opportunites for the development of co-operative law enforcement experience.

Yeah... perhaps. More importantly, however, effective action off Somalia should not be left to the Russians alone for obvious reasons. Vessels of other nations should be encouraged to "go hard" and not be limited to escort and observer activities.

[Stryker001]

The fact that people are considering going through alternate routes instead of using the Suez Canal, the problem is out of hand.

A much larger multi-national task force is need for operations, however the Russians should act outside of the current UN charter to allow more direct efforts in taking the fight up to the pirates.

All roads lead to the Bakara Market it is a trade hub so we should say hello.

I believe the PRC should also come down to operate with the Russians, so it is still a multi-national task force but without the constraints.

Also at least two private contractors are need I suggested an unnamed firm run by ex-KGB Alpha Group operators and Blackwater, be given the contracts by the UN to conduct additional operations.

Using covert civilian ships that have been fortified, will draw the pirates out into a kill zone, in which the private firms can as well as using the own firepower, call upon the Russian and PRC navies and in the case of Blackwater the US navy and current taskforce.

The Somali Government has less than impressed me.

www.blackwaterusa.com (http://www.blackwaterusa.com)

Surgical ground strikes are required outside of what the CIA have been up to down their fighting al-Qaida and the Islamists.

[StevoJH]

That's one tank battallion of tanks. If we take a 3-battallion structure, then a regiment is 94 tanks. At least in the Russian/Soviet system. Given that the tanks are Soviet in origin, it would make sense to measure their numbers in the Soviet system.

British and Australian Tank regiments have 58 Tanks. When i meant half a regiment i was referring to 30 being just over half of 58. ;)

[Stryker001]

British and Australian Tank regiments have 58 Tanks. When i meant half a regiment i was referring to 30 being just over half of 58. ;)

Whatever they still are not the property of the bandits.

The real purpose of the terrorist is to have the capability to close the gulf of Aden and tie up allied naval ships. This is part of al-Quds asymmetrical warfare doctrine, which is miss named almost all warfare strategies are asymmetrical.

The al-Quds forces have the ability to close the Straits of Hormuz I should say disrupt. And have the capability to disrupt (as the shipping industry are seek the alternate route CLOSE) the Suez Canal via the Gulf of Aden. Just as Islamic Jihad are behind the embassy bombing in Yemen. Which really means al-Quds forces.

Hizbullah are in Venezuela, for the same purpose if required disrupt the Panama Canal.

[Stryker001]

The other part of the al-Quds strategy is hostage taking, psychological and fiscal. Its only going to get worse, the hostage taking be it in Somalia or worldwide.

[Feanor]

British and Australian Tank regiments have 58 Tanks. When i meant half a regiment i was referring to 30 being just over half of 58. ;)

Those are tank regiments? :confused: Wow. Just a few questions, does Britain use a division or brigade structure? And and how many of those regiments are in an average division/brigade?

[Stryker001]

The so-called expert think that the tanks can't be sold or used it is beyond the capability of the Somali's, well the Afghan's manage to keep their tanks going via cannibalizing others for spare parts. Secondly the ammo can be used for IED's.

If you go down to the Bakara Market you would be able to place an order for the tanks, it is a strong hold of the militia.