Turkey to buy German tanks

[P.A.F]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/11/09/int13.htm

Turkey to buy German tanks

BERLIN, Nov 8: Germany confirmed on Tuesday that it had agreed to sell nearly 300 battle tanks to Turkey. The defence ministry announced that 298 Leopard 2 tanks which currently belong to the German army will be sold to Turkey in a deal signed by both sides on Tuesday.

The Greens, the junior partners in the outgoing coalition government of Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, have in the past opposed selling tanks to Turkey because of the possibility that they would be used against Kurds in the southeast of the country.

More than 37,000 people have been killed in clashes since 1984 when ethnic rebels launched an armed campaign for Kurdish self-rule in that region.—AFP

[turin]

That the tanks are at risk being used against the Kurds was a rather ridiculous political argument by the Greens. MBT are not that useful in such a mountainous environment and the conflict is not that intensive in order to call in MBTs anyway. In clashes against the Kurds the turkish forces rely more on APC and comparable systems.
However the turkish army certainly needs those tanks to modernize their huge and pretty aged fleet of MBT, such as thousands of M-47s.
The tanks being transferred are Leopard 2A4, drawn from reserves of the german army. Dont know if they will upgrade them to A5 or even A6 though.

[polaris]

Yes Turin. These tanks cant used in these areas. Success of the Turkish army against these terorists is only thanks to experianced special forces and helos.No tanks was used at past.

These claims are just to mention the political view of these people.They say in reality: We dont accept them as terorists, they re just innocent people and trying to found their own country which we all promised them in the early of 1900's.

An impossible claim...

By the way Turkey has no M47's. İthink you wanted to say M 48's.

BRGDS...

[diopos]

A very good move from the turkish army , and in a way expected. :)
Greece also signed a contract for the purchase of ~180 Leos 2 from the reserves of the german army.

Still there are at least 300 Leos 2 for sale in the next years from the bundeswehr reserves.

So in the next few years i would expect that Turkey will go on for more 200-300 of them while Greece could buy 100-150 more.

Both countries need to modernize/upgrade their MBTs fleet and it seems like the procedue has allready started...

[WarpDrive]

That the tanks are at risk being used against the Kurds was a rather ridiculous political argument by the Greens. MBT are not that useful in such a mountainous environment and the conflict is not that intensive in order to call in MBTs anyway. In clashes against the Kurds the turkish forces rely more on APC and comparable systems.

The chain of events that led the Greens to take such decision was not sparked off by the use of a German MBT against the PKK terrorists anyway. It was a BTR-80 APC delivered by Germany to the Turkish Army that started everything. Turkish troops, suspicious of a booby trap, tied the body of a dead terrorist to a BTR-80 and pulled the body away. PKK made a story out of it in Europe saying that the Turkish troops were dragging alive PKK members with tanks and APCs. Many Gemans believed them and then came the hidden embargo.

However the turkish army certainly needs those tanks to modernize their huge and pretty aged fleet of MBT, such as thousands of M-47s.

Agreed except for the fact that Turkish army does not have any M-47s in its inventory, but a huge and aged M-48/M-60 fleet.

The tanks being transferred are Leopard 2A4, drawn from reserves of the german army. Dont know if they will upgrade them to A5 or even A6 though.

Nope, they will only be upgraded by Germany to Leo2A4-Batch 8 standard prior to the delivery. However, Turkey (ASELSAN) will later on upgrade their fire control system.

[turin]

The chain of events that led the Greens to take such decision was not sparked off by the use of a German MBT against the PKK terrorists anyway.

Yes, thats why I was referring to it as a political argument. Of course the "historical fact" it was based on, was the use of former NVA-equipment by Turkey.

Agreed except for the fact that Turkish army does not have any M-47s in its inventory,

Ah, yes. Before anyone else comments on that: I meant the M-48 and mixed it up with the 47s. ;)

[oskarm]

How many Leos (and witch version) German army is going to have? Is the army going to reduce number of heavy brigades or limit numbers of tank in battalions or companies?

[turin]

As far as I know the future german tank forces include a total of 350 Leopard 2 being versions A5 and A6, the number being down from about 850 units a couple of years ago (then mostly version A4).
The combat units will operate a total of 264 MBT in six bataillons, the rest of the MBT is with reserves and academy inventories.
There surely will remain a number of MBT in depots, the exact number currently unknown and depending upon further sales to interested customers such as Turkey.

[oskarm]

Wow that's an extremely low number of Tanks as for 80 mln country in Europe. Are there plans for designing or production of a new MBT in Germany? Or Germany is going to shift to expeditionary forces?

[turin]

Of course the current cuts are primarily motivated by the extremely low defense budget, numbering around 24 bn Euro in total (approx. 1,5 % GDP). Additionally in recent years the new orientation towards expeditionary operations increased drastically and there seems to be little use for our formerly massive MBT forces (around 1990 numbering approx. 4,500 Leopard 1&2). Most tankers agree with the cuts on the basis that through these means german MBT forces will remain up to date while enabling the army and the Bundeswehr to develop more useful means to deploy its forces. Also chances for an enemy threatening german territory in the near future via conventional means (ie. large armies with masses of MBT etc.) are nearly non-existent and the combat value of thousands of aging tanks being in reserves over a significant amount of time has to be in doubt anyways.

Currently there exists no such effort as to indicate development of a successor MBT to the Leopard 2. All such efforts were cancelled after break-up of the Soviet Union. As of now there seems to be an agreement over further R&D being put into a completely new form of combat systems, which in form of a family of vehicles are intended to replace todays Leopard 2 at some later date within the 2010-2020 timeframe. No solid information on these efforts has transpired as of yet, though.

[Soner1980]

Turkey has bought 298 Leo-2A4 from German surplus stocks. The A4 version is of the 8th batch and is a model from 1988. Old, and outdated for today's standards.

ASELSAN will modernize the electronics and a second company will reinforce the body armor. It will be modernized to the A5 standard. Turkish army is know of the use of DU rounds that the US army used in Iraq. about 20,000 120mm with DU is in storage and is capable of piercing through all modern armor including the Leo2A6 and the M1A2 at a distance of 1,500m - 2,000 meter 'dog fight' range.

The large 120mm was a alternative for the DU round for the EU forces wich they don't want DU ammo for political reasons. Turkey will use them like other countries.

Turkish army has used tanks in low numbers as a 'mobile pillbox' on hilltops. Turkey has about 100 M-47 tanks all scrapped from duty. M48's are all modernized to the M60A1 and M60A3 standards (thermal night vision, advanced ballistic computer, laser range finder, etc.) And the M60's are upgraded to the Sabra mk.2 The M48A5T1 will be phased out of service and only the 750 M48A5T2 with its TTS will remain in service. The Other M60 series are upgraded after the first 170 m60's sabra.

Turkey is to develop its own MBT with more than 75% of the turkish companies and maybe the 25% is foreign support. The need is 1000 MBT's

Future totalling: 1000 local built, 300 Leo-2, 950 sabra and 750 M48A5T2 total count 3000 MBT in the future inventory.

[beleg]

Dear Soner,
afaik the DU ammo we have are 105 mm which were transferred with the M-60s after op Desert Storm. We dont have a 120 mm barreled tank atm so why have 120 mm DU ammo..

KKK (army) has ordered a new ammo(DM63) with the Leo2a4s which will improve the penetration ability and lenghten the life time of the barrel.

I would like to know more about the modernisation of Leo2A4s you mentioned. No official detail was revealed about this as of yet. We all know there were talks about modernising leo2a4s with a newer generation of Aselsans Volkan but since the details of agreements with Germany is unclear about this i think it might be early to comment. Also currently there is no extensive armor tech in Turkey (at least officially, we dont know what was gained by sabra project too). Please clarify the details you know about this.

Thanks

[Soner1980]

Hi,

About the Leo2 A4 modernization, I have read this in the Turkish newspaper online somewhere. I don't know much about it but I think this is the same modernization what Turkey did with its M48's. The T2 version is known of the installation of the DNTSS wich is the same night sighting system in the M60A3 TTS. The leopard 2A4 is known to have only image intensifier wich is not a Thermal viewer and does not work in absolute darkness. The Image intensifier is much cheaper and therefore mostly used by Russian tanks.

It is also known that ASELSAN always equip Turkish made radios in their MBT's because the Turkish version is unable to track and it unable to 'intercept' the radia signal because of its encryption.

The Turkish Army has enough 105mm DU rounds and some 120mm DU rounds in his inventory. Check this link and you can read the original site. http://www.laka.org/teksten/Vu/where-how-much-01/main.html

The tabular from laka.org:
TypeAmountDestinationSource105 mm M7741,000
84,451Taiwan
TurkeyJane's
Jane's120 mm M833300
2,130
10,025
320
22,920Israel
Jordan
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
TurkeyJane's
Jane's
Jane's
Jane's
Jane's120 mm M829A2
Contract was placed with Primex Technologies in June 199523,278US Army

I don't know why Turkey has 120mm DU rounds, maybe because it had a plan to MBT's with the 120mm SB gun. Or maybe in case to of the "Turkish National Tank Project" ? But know that the Turkish Land Forces Command receives their first delivery of the Leo-2A4, it is able to penetrate modern armor at ranges of 2000 meters and that is dangerous.

Some websites say that the M833 is a 105mm like this site: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm here you can also see the penetrating capability. Some handy?? :grab
Maybe you are right, why 120mm rounds if there are no guns to fire them? Then the website laka is providing wrong data. Turkey has more than 100,000 DU rounds in his inventory thats clear. Enough for destroying 20,000 MBT's.

But you can see that the Turkish M48's are also deadly as the T-72's in the Iranian, Syrian and Armenian inventories with the 105mm DU ammo. But the M48 is also fragile against the 125mm gun at all ranges :( . Then a dogfight is most desireable (within 2000 km) when every tank is able to penetrate every tanks armor.

I think that this info will fit you.

[Waylander]

The Leopard II A4 has a thermal imager for its gunner and an image intensifier for the driver.

[Soner1980]

Hi,

Thanx for your reply. It can be true that the German army have built (or let built) thermal imagers for all the Leo's in their inventory.

But if I look to the picture of the Leo-2A4, there must be at least the armor be upgraded because modern munitions still could penetrate the heavy armor of the 1988 model Leo 2 A4. Thats the reason that Krauss-Mafei-Wegmann has developed the A5 and later the A6 with its sloped armor. The flat armor of the Leo 2A4 is bulky but not enough for new AP or even HEAT projectiles. Also the side armor must be 'reinforced' with modular, passive or ERA armor to withstand such impacts. Today there are tripple-stage warhead HEAT rounds, even the RPG-7 has the 2 stage warhead with its able to penetrate 400mm RHA (Steel) armor with means the sides can be penetrated with this new type of rocket. The front armor is known of comparable with about 625mm tickness RHA for APFSDS and 800 for Shaped charge warheads. The Leo-2 series have composite armor with is the heavies in the world.

After all, the Leo-2 series is one of the best selling tanks in the world. It's like candy in the arms trading. :D

[Waylander]

Yeah it's right that it would be good if the turkish army could upgrade the Leo II A4s. The question is of they are able to pay for it.
It is interesting to see that their old enemy greece gets brand new Leopaed IIHE which is, together with the spanish Leopard IIE, the most capable version of the Leo II.
I don't think that they like to see the greece army going ahead in tank technology. ;)

PS: You can believe me with the thermal imager on the Leopard II A4. I served on it. ;) :smooth

[Soner1980]

ok, you are a tanker. I have sollicitated for the Dutch army but I don't passed the tests. I'm also tankhorny you know? :D

We will see what the modernization will include withing several weeks. But the Greek army has bought the A6 version with small changes on it, I know about it. The 298 Leopard 2A4 is the replacement for the aging 3000 M48A5 series. The 298 will be used for a time and Turkey has started to produce an indigenously designed tank. FNSS (producer of the YPR-765 and the Akinci) and ASELSAN (Military Electronics Manufacturing Facilities) and other firms have signed a contract to develop a MBT. Maybe KMW from Germany will assist or GIAT from Franse you never know about it what Turkey will make changes in their project. But when I see Turkish tanks, ok they are good maintained but obsolete know by today's standards. I'm Turkish too, I respect my countries army but it's all old crap that M48's. Truly it's a shame for a modern NATO army. Many say that they are modernized. But from where to where you can modernize them? It's is better than the original M48A5 but not equal to the oldest of the oldest Leopard-2A1.

Only the computerized fire control systems, thermal imagers from the M60A3 TTS, and the DU munitions on it are good on it. The mobility, armor and silhouette are still the 1950's. A M48A5T2 (with Thermal viewer) is the best Tank Destroyer or Self Propelled 105mm gun system (but with too much weight) in the world but the worst modern MBT in the world. Even the Leopard-1A3T1 is better than the M48A5T2 because the Leo-1 is lower, faster, more modern looking and more potential for upgrading it.

This is only my opinion. I have also a question: Is the 105mm gun dangerous for a Leopard-2A4/A5/A6? With or without the DU penetrator?

Greatings...

[Waylander]

I totally agree with your opinion on the modernized M48. :)
But I really like the Sabra upgrade for the turkish M60s.

The 105mm is obsolete even with DU ammunition.
If you don't catch them from the side or rear you will be butchered if it goes against modernized T-72s and even than the ERA could save them. If it goes against modern tanks (T-80/84/90/etc. or western tanks like the Leopard II A4-6, M1AX, Leclerc, whatever) you better leave your 105mm armed tank and hide in the woods. :D

[Soner1980]

The M48 series have one option for a good use: upgrade to a AA vehicle like the Gepard. You can put heavy mount on the M48 hull. The turret must be replaced with an AA turret with two autocannons like the 35mm or something. And also the use Stinger or equivelant AA missiles. Then it would be a good vehicle. Also, the Turkish army converted less than 100 pieces of M48 to a recovery vehicle. Also good.

I will see what Turkey does with it's M60's. The Sabra upgrade should not a very good decicion if I read Turkish news papers. It's like the JS-III. Many parts broke and the 1000hp engine is unsufficient, armor weldings broke down. All that things. The Turkish Sabra upgrade is a good platform on the other hand, but it must be cleaned by its bugs. All problems should be worked out and than Turkey has 170 Sabra's with 3rd generation performance. The Sabra project is also a technology transfer. So the remaining M60's and M48 are also upgradeable.

[Waylander]

Till now I red and heard only good stuff about the israeli Sabra upgrade. Sure it remains a M60, which will never be a match to a new generation tank unimportant how often you upgrade it, but it increases its capabilities.
But you are right, if the basic hull isn't in good sharpe than it's useless. If you put some new tech onto an old tank without overhauling the basic chassis you saved money in a dumb way.
The idea of making some AA vehicles out of the old M48 is a good one but maybe it is cheaper just to buy some upgraded and overhauled Gepards from germany. I think we still have some in stocks.

I really enjoy your posts because they are not in the way "my *** is bigger than yours" which happens quite often here if it comes to a tank topic. :)

[Soner1980]

Turkey has a very strong army in terms of training, dicipline, equipment. But modern weaponry is shortcoming in our land forces. This is the true. Accepting it will help for a solution. But we are not sleeping. Turkey is working to built most of the weapons via license or indigenously.

All Turkish navy or air force equipment is up to date but only the MBT fleet is obsolete. The new Turkish Akinci is like the M2 bradley but with lesser armor and is smaller. The Bradley weighs araound 23 tons while the Akinci weighs 18,5 tons. Tough, Turkey is able to produce modern weaponry. Few years ago Turkey has shown it's T-155 Firtina, a 155mm 52 cal SP Howitser. It is a derivative and not a knock off because they are different from the K-9. The hull is slightly different and the turret is completely different and has the same howitser. The T-155 uses the same electronics like of the PanzerHaubitze 2000 because it is from the same NATO project. The Germans have produced the PzH-2000 with it's own tech and Turkey via a tech transfer. Still it is a Turkish design because it is derivated and derivation needs CAD/CAM supported design to produce it.

I don't think so that Turkey would purchase the Gepards even after a modernization. Recently Turkey has changed it's arms trading policy. The objective is to learn when you spend money for your sales. Turkey want to upgrade their fleet like the Sabra and also to learn. 170 Sabra's are from the M60A1 and the others will be done by the Turkish Army self. Maybe If Germany also accepts an offer to receive Turkish technicians to transfer know-how and learn when a 5 or 10 Gepards are upgraded in Germany and the rest of the 100 to upgrade in Turkey by Turkish technicians, than Turkey would say yes to it. Because Turkey has the ability to upgrade other vehicle too or other nations Gepards. This is Turkish policy in arms trade so far I have read on the newspapers or some internet sites.

The Sabra is good in design but in practical the Turkish tankers are not met when testing the prototype. I believe that the problems will be worked out and that Turkey converts their 1000 strong M60 fleet to the Sabra and the 3000 strong M48 will be reduced to 1500 wich can also be upgraded to a look a like Sabra maybe. The leopard upgrade is a good thing I think. The Volkan upgrade has the same capabilities of that of the Leopard 2 but with a 105mm gun. The Leopard 1 is not outdated I think. If you have engines that can replace the 830 hp MTU engines with 1000 or 1200 hp engines, you can add armor on it or a complete new turret like the leopard 2 with some modifications. Like the T-72 hull, the Chinese have their Type-98G (or Type-99) with almost the same capabilities of a T-90 or M1A1 Abrams.

[burak136]

...And coming Turkish Tank(ownself):
http://www.bmc.com.tr/eng_savunma_tank.asp

Note:Sorry for bad english :)

[Soner1980]

We all know this. It is old. FNSS, BMC and Otokar have received a request for proposal. But this is unclear what they want to do. France has delivered (very fast) within few days a proposal to Turkish officials a dossier with blueprint and technical data wich according to French technicians that it complies with the Turkish request. We will see, it is still in a phase of 'I don't know' but soon Turkey will make it's choise. French armor is known that they are less armored but have good accuracy and mobility. With It's 54 tons the Leclerc, it is a strange design. The turret armor is like it's not armored. The flat gunshield also is bad. Sloped armor is alway better to deflect hits or to bounce off.

We will see what Turkey decides. I know that FNSS for the turret, BMC for the engine and hull, maybe MKE for the gun, ASELSAN for the electronics and sights, and maybe other firms like kalekalip to support the production.

[Waylander]

I really like how the canadians upgraded their Leo Is. That could be an opinion for you.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/307/leopardc2mexas5wk.th.png (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leopardc2mexas5wk.png)

It's really good if a country whants to build its own military forces. But as always it is a question of money even if you already have an established industry. And it is for sure much more expensive to build up your own military industry.
For me I am not a friend of light armored IFVs. An IFV should be able to protect its crew and infantry squad and withstand enemy guns up to 30mm and RPGs. It also should be able to defeat enemy mechanized Infantry and have some ATGM. Thats a real IFV. And even than you could get really fast into some trpuble in a full scale mechanized combat situation. Other vehicles are more APCs than IFVs.

Shots bouncing of of sloped armor are rather rare. Modern Ammo do not bounce of. There are pictures of KE shots going throug tank guns.
If shots would bounce of the new armor of the Lepoard A5/A6 would be a real trap. You normally use sloped armor because the penetrator have to go through more armor on its way into the tank.
These picture is from firing trials with german 105mm and 120mm HEAT and APFSDS against T-72M1. Look at the gun. Even there nothing bounced of.

http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Aservatenkammer/Beschussversuche3/Gesamtansicht2.gif

[Soner1980]

Yes the Leopard 1 upgrade by the Canadians is beautiful. Is it also domestic upgrade?

Turkey has now a bit more money to built weapons. Yes, still in need of more money to comply their mission to built MBT's. After several years Turkey will become to the top 10 in the world economy. Now Turkey is the 17th world economic power.

About the armor with slope, yes you are right. 60% slope is doubling the effective thickness of the armor plates original thickness. But if a 100mm HVAPDS KE round fired from an old T-55 on a leopard 2A6's turret front, the bullet will bounce because of the armor is to heavy for the round and doesn't have enough Kinetic Energy to penetrate. But HEAT warhead (shaped charge or CE) will melt a hole in the armor without penetrating it. I think like this. It is possible that I'm wrong because I don't spend my time with testing armor you know? :D I don't have seen the test results but I have seen a very slowmotion of the firing of an APFSDS round from a M1A1 on TV. The impact after, you hear a noise like you hit metal with a hammer but with a deeper sound. No explosion occur what most people think that MBT are destroyed by explosives. Isn't it that a tank will only burn when it's penetrated by KE? If a M60 or Leo1 or 2 is penetrated, will the tank be on fire? Chinese Type 59/69 and russian T-55/62 will burn like newspaper I have seen in the 1991 gulf war. But the M60 or newer in US inventory and leo1 or moderner has to be designed to withstand after a penetration.

[Soner1980]

Hey I saw the picture later with a T-72 and it's gun. Strange, but the speed will be like a knife cutting the sides of from a banana. It's all techniques to kill a human in a new way...

[Waylander]

One of the main Problems of the T-72s in Iraq were their auto loaders. One load is in the carussel and when it is hit the turret says bye bye.
A hit with a KE may cause a fire or may not. Depends on what it hits. If a Leopard 2 is penetrated on the front hull the ammo storage maybe hit and blows of because of the pressure and heat produced by the KE. Thats not good. ;)
Maybe one or more members of the crew are killed but the tank is ready to go after some minor repairs. Or maybe the KE gets throug but with low power after penetrating so the spall liners take the rest and nothing happens. It is really hard to say.
If you do not hit fuel, ammo or some other things like oil plastic etc. catch fire nothing will happen. If you are lucky the fire control system than kills the fire (And maybe you, too :D )
For example a Bradley burns better than an Abrams because there is much aluminium in it.

An APFSDS will never bounce of the front turret armor of an A5/A6. The new armor is not developed to let KEs bounce of. It is difficult to explain. The KE projectile is "catched" by the armor and the special layers in it should change the course of the projectile or at best break it into pieces before it hits the original main armor.

[Soner1980]

Ok, I have learnt something. It is known that sub-caliber (KE) round uses their speed for increasing the penetrating capabilities. The 120mm smoothbore gun can fire rounds that will make speed of almost 1800 meters/sec. I guess. But I alway thought that ammo bounces off when has sloping. But when waching pictures you linked above, you can see that KE has perforated the armor of the T-72M1 MBT's like it was not armored. The spaced armor on the T-72 turret is also nothing for KE. If the Soviets used laminate or something, that it could be better. But NATO countries know that Soviet tanks are lighter armored than expected...

I will see Turkish Leopard-2A4 tanks on a military parade in 30 august 10.00 hours on Turkish TRT channel and maybe other weapons too.

[Waylander]

When a shot doesn't bounce of a 125mm gun (Which is one of the stable parts of an MBT) which it is hitting with not more than 10° it wont bounce of sloped armor even when it is layered.
During the Tests in Germany they found at that the T-72 is actually better armored against HEAT warheads than expected if you hit it at the upgraded ceramic parts of its armor. The other parts are no match for HEAT warheads not to speak of KE which goes right through the turret. :cool:
That's one of the reasons why the sovjets and now the russians use and developed so much active defense systems which are quite capable against ATGMs, HEAT and old APFSDS warheads.
Maybe my old tank is one of the Leos you get. There could be still a bottle of coke in its ammunition storage. During our last maneuver it fell into it and whe never found it. :D

[Soner1980]

I'm 1,84 meters long, maybe I will become a tanker and I will post it back tou you as a rememberance. The world is small... :D :D

Yes I have read about that that Russian tanks are lighter armored than expected. Of the Shtora is a good defensive system, I don't rely on it. But it is handy if a Leopard-2 is also equipped with it for just in case. The Russians have only composite or laminate armor on their hull front. The T-80 is sayd it has fyber glass in it turret armor but I don't believe it. If you look to the Soviet tanks turret, it is all rounded not like the leopard in flat shape and used sloping armor. The Russians rely on their Kontakt series reactive armor with only the first hit is stopped and then the second will penetrate. And the spaced armor, nothing is nothing for KE round, air would not stop the round but for HEAT it is to spray the jet empty and not to penetrate. The US bradley in 1991 Gulf war is known to penetrate the side of a T-72 tank with it's 25mm DU rounds. Did you read about it? And 2 T-72's can be destroyed with one 120mm DU rounds. Funny isn't it to fight against Soviets?

[Waylander]

An M1A1 has also been penetrated on the sides and rear by 25mm DU friendly fire. ;)
The Iraqi T-72 were T-72M (Export Version with bad armor, optics and electronics) using very, very old ammo and driven by bad trained crews. Not to forget the demoralizing air and artillery strikes and the fact that they used their tanks like bunkers and not in a mobile warfare stile for which the T-72 is designed for.
I also prefer a good passive defence system instead an active system, but it is an effective and cheap way to improve a tank.
But there is a reason for the israelis not using ERA on their new Merkava Mrk.IV like they do on their Sabra, Sherman, et. upgrades. ;)

[Soner1980]

Can you mention that after 20 years a new ammo will be used and with 40 or 50 mm autocannons you can destroy today's best MBT at a distance of 1000 meters.

But the Sabra what Turkey will have after 2007 is the Mk. 2 version, will it also have ERA? I think it will have passive armor on it so far I have read about it.

[Waylander]

Ah, ok I see you get the Mrk.II upgrade.
I don't like that it just has an x8 optic for the gunner and a speed on streets of 46 km/h. That's not very fast.

[Soner1980]

The Sabra Mk.2 has a 'Knight' fire control system. Is it 8x zooming level? It is not so good for long distances and precisely aiming at a range. And the engine is only a barely 908hp. What you say, it is a big M60A3. Only with a more deadly 120mm smoothbore gun with ATGM capability and better armor. The speed and mobility will be the same. But the Mk.3 has a 1200hp engine and slightly more armor on it.

I see that it is not worth it to upgrade. The S120 upgrade with a complete M1A1 turret was better and a 1200hp engine. But for the M48 it is a good way to upgrade it to a Sabra not?

[Waylander]

The Sabra is an upgrade for which increases the capabilities of the M60 but is is no match for new generation tanks especialliy not without ERA upgrades.
An x8 optic is far to less for a modern MBT, even the Leopard II or M1A1 has problems to concentrate on a target with their x12 optic.

[Soner1980]

Like I said before, the Sabra has many problems in the requirements of the Turkish Army. I think that Turkey have made a decision to Leopard-2A4 tanks because of this. The Leopard 2 is self a new tank compared to the Sabra. But it was cheap. I had read about 180 million dollar including tech. transfer. And it is better than the original.

But what do you think about the armor of the Sabra? The M60 had a good armor except for the 120mm and 125mm guns, but for the 105mm gun without DU munition and all 100mm and 115mm guns is it good armored. Also for ATGM the M60 lacks good armoring. The Sabra has proven well I think with ERA on it. What do you say about it?

[amqb_az]

It would be great if Turkey decides to produce its own MBT tank.

[Waylander]

The Problem of the Sabra without ERA is that nowadays 125mm guns and ATGMs are widespread in the countrys around Turkey. For sure the Sabra Mrk.II is able to cause some serious damage and in fortified positions its vulnerability isn't that serious but if it comes to a more mobile stile of warfare, not to speak of offensive actions, it really has a problem. For that it is too slow, the armor without ERA is not thick enough for most of the threats out there, its silouette is too big and it's optics are not good enough. For the Israelis it serves very well if they put them into fortified positions in the golan or they use it in low intensive conflicts in gaza etc. They may also serve good for you in the same role.

[Soner1980]

If you ask for my opinion, than Turkey is to buy 300 Leopard2A4 (wich is already done and delivery has begun), upgrade its 1000 strong M60 fleet to the Sabra or Turkish variant of it, phasing out of the 3000 M48 series of service and after 10-15 years, Turkey is to produce it's own indigenous tank. The companies whit are now planned for the production and design are FNSS, Otokar, BMC and ASELSAN wich produces many years for the army.

Turkey has now signed a project to produce it's own tank with involvement of Turkish industries as a 'main contractor' and German or French industries as an 'alt contractor'. This time Turkey want to produce it's own weapons no matter what and at least it will do it with a tech transfer or full license like the G3 and HK-33 rifles and the ACV and F-16's. Turkey has developed it's own sniper rifle with 12,7mm and a range of 1800 meters. The rifle is called Avunya (is the same name for a Turkish traditional food in Kayseri) and is also ablt to fire anti-material munitions that penetrates of 13mm armor plate at a distance of about 1100meters.

And the Sabra is a good weapon for the "2nd line" units and the Leopard-2A4 and later in the futere Turkish indigenous for the "First line" units.

This is my opinion but Turkey is known that it can not decide wich weapon it must choose. What Turkey want's is alway expensive. Maybe 5 years later, Turkey has the same economy like Italy or Spain with this groth rate and is able to invest in it's own weapons factory.

[Soner1980]

The Problem of the Sabra without ERA is that nowadays 125mm guns and ATGMs are widespread in the countrys around Turkey. For sure the Sabra Mrk.II is able to cause some serious damage and in fortified positions its vulnerability isn't that serious but if it comes to a more mobile stile of warfare, not to speak of offensive actions, it really has a problem. For that it is too slow, the armor without ERA is not thick enough for most of the threats out there, its silouette is too big and it's optics are not good enough. For the Israelis it serves very well if they put them into fortified positions in the golan or they use it in low intensive conflicts in gaza etc. They may also serve good for you in the same role.

Yes they are slow and it's very dangerous when a tank have bad mobility. But Turkey uses it against the PKK and DHKP/c terrorist wich they alway make trouble in southeastern Turkey. Turkey has always used their old M48A3 tanks against the PKK because the M48A3 was planned to phase out and use it for the terrorist without serious AT capability. The M48A3 tanks are always in a hilltop dig-in and protected by Turkish infantry. In the future the Leopard's will take it over from the antique M48's. Maybe Turkey can give it to it's ex-Soviet allies like Azerbaijan and other Turkish counties. Because Azeri's need more AFV to fight the Armenians.

[Waylander]

I don't think that Azerbaijan or some other country is going to take the M48s. It is too easy for them to get cheap russian equipment which is more capable than the M48s.
Even the T-72M export versions are much better and very cheap by now. And you could also purchase old Leopard IA5 from germany, belgium, denmark, etc. They are also not very good armored but fast and with good TCs and hunter killer capabilities.

[Soner1980]

It is true that the T-72 is better than M48. But If Turkey has the privileges to give it away for free? It is all possible because my uncle has driven a truck with other drivers they have brought many small arms and light artillery to Azerbaijan for free. This is true because my uncle has said this and he have driven many times in the early 1990's. And why the M48A5's wich are upgraded with thermal sights, tabilization, laser rangefinders etc.. Ok they are old and less capable than the T-72. Azerbaijan can buy other T-55 and T-72's. They have 150 T-72 and 134 T-55. They can reinforce their fleet with NATO arms such as the Leopard-1's and maybe Leopard-2A4's.

Have you an idea what the 2A46 125mm SB cannon specifications are? Also the performance? And what against a Leopard-2A4 it will have?

[beleg]

Great posts guys.

A few pix of upgraded Turkish M-60s

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7276/p11324206wd.jpg
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/6169/p11324216ay.jpg
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7147/p11324196jw.jpg

and a picture of LeoI Volkan upgrade designed by Aselsan

http://gallery.koroshiya.net/albums/IDEF2005/IDEF200540.sized.jpg

Aslesan is already developing a newer FCS for the TMBT project and such a system is an option to be used on Leo2a4s IF the deal between Turkey and Germany allows Turkey to upgrade the tanks locally.

I have been in the Leo2A6 and its an impressive tank. Leo2 is a great addition to TAF and i hope KMW will be selected as tech partner for the TMBT project.

[Soner1980]

I have also been in a Leopard2A5 and A4. There is not much differnce if you see the inside. Turkey have them modernized by Germany. There is no option to upgrade them locally. But Turkey will upgrade them a few years later when the Sabra and the Volkan project is completed. The Leopard 2 is one of the most tuneable AFV's in the world. Maybe you can see it with another upgrade wich make radical changes to the original Leopard-2 design like the Sabra or something.

Can you also confirm that the pictures are real Turkish pictures? I have seen the pictures a time ago and I think that they are shot on Israeli test track.

The Volkan pictures is rather old. Look to the copyright logo :p: Turkey does not have any Leopard1's with the Volkan upgrade yet or at least in very small numbers. The project is completed in early 2007.

[beleg]

Hi,
Let me clarify some point to the best of my knowledge.

1- Germany is not upgrading or modernising the leo2a4s. The tanks are being refurbished only.

2- There is no detail on the agreement released, at least in Turkey and i know that the talks had stalled a few times because of Turkeys request to modernise the tanks later in Turkey with local technology while KMW was urging German gov. for a modernisation work to be done in Germany. I have validated this when i talked to some KMW representatives. So we can clearly say today Turkey has the necessary tech to modernise A4s to A6 levels in terms of fire power and accuracy and we are also supposed to have some armor tech developed by then, to add additional protection to our Leo2s.

In IDEF 2005 the engineers in Aselsan had said they are already working on an improved Volkan II system which TAF might want to use in Leo2 upgrades.

3- The M-60 pix are supposed to be shot in Turkey during trials of the tank.
But i cannot say its 100% because i didnt shoot them :)

4- Volkan picture is not that old (25/9/2005 IDEF Ankara). I know the date because i have taken it ;) .Currently Volkan is in production phase and the Leo1a1s in TAF inventory are being modernised but like you said the project has recently begun.

I think when the modernised Leo1s and M-60s are being delivered to TAF we will see a parade concerning it.

One note about M-60s, as far as i know every moving part of the tank is changed in the tank, this includes transmissions,gear,engine,tracks etc. So its basicly a cheap new tank. Its armor is same armor used on Merkava IV (not III) . It has one of the state of the art fire control systems and gun available. So in their current state, despite the relatively low armor protection, they are better armed than the Leo2a4s which we will start receiving shortly..

[Waylander]

Are you sure that you are able to develop a gun and ammo similar to the L/55 with DM53/63?
There is also the question if the combination of modern and old armor (The basic armor of the M60 still remains in place) gives you the same level of protection like the full integrated armor of the Leo II A4.

[Soner1980]

Yes beleg, you are right. The Leo-2A4 are just to be refurbished by the Germans. I was wrong in words...

But the Sabra is not as much good I think. Because there are many 'beginner' problems wich must also be solved. The Sabra is a whole new project for Israel and also a very cheap upgrade to Turkey with a tech transfer.

The Volkan II upgrade, I don't know about it but the leo-2A4 that it can be upgraded by Turkey is very clever by ASELSAN and MKEK group. But Turkey has the technology and the 'know how' to develop a tank gun. In the 1980's Turkey has produced over 460 105mm M68T and L7 rifled tank guns for the 90mm M48 series to be upgraded to the M48A5 and then the T1 and T2 series.

But now the 120mm is not a rifle, it is a smoothbore like in hunting shotguns but bigger and also more sophisticated. The first smoothbore tank guns were first developed by the Soviets in the late 1950's for the T-62 MBT's. The U-5T 115mm tank gun (later D-68 in the first T-64's and later 2A20 able to fire the Sheksna missile) has a muzzle velocity of 1615 meters per seconds. And with the BD 36/2 APFSDS-T round it is able to penetrate 520mm (RHA, 71° angle) at 1,000 m. The gun fires the BD 36/2 round to a range of maximum of 3000 meters acurately.

Turkey to develop a 120mm smoothbore gun? I don't know but it is possible if there is enough money :) It is also possible to co-produce the 120mm smoothbore gun wich Ukraine also produces with NATO ammo compliance I think.

[Waylander]

I have no doubts that you are able to develop a 120mm smothbore gun or develop it together with the ukrainians. The question is if you want very, very much money into a gun where it is not sure if you are able to develop one with the same power like the L/55 with DM63. You could save the money and buy it. There are enough other european countrys buying it.

[Soner1980]

Developing a tank gun needs much of money and time for it's research. The new Rheinmetall 120mm L55 smoothbore gun is 'the gun' of the next generation MBT's. Let the Chinese experiment with it's artillery based 152mm tank gun. It is too big and you will have less ammo in your tank like the JS-1/2 and 3 heavy tanks wich had only 21 rounds while the Germans had about 90 rounds in its 88mm armed Tiger tanks.

I am also with you Weylander, to buy tank guns or like the US, produce it under license like the M256. It is easier and then you have also tech tranfer and you have your replacement guns for weared guns on the Leopard-2's.

But I don't understand why Germany not gived Turkey the right to upgrade the Leo-2A4's in Turkey by Turkish firms. ASELSAN produces a better fire control system and thermal imagers than the 1980's era thermal imager and Turkey has also the capability to up-armor it with extra armor.

[Waylander]

Because we get no money if you do it by yourself. ;) :D
Pure economy.

[Soner1980]

But okay, Turkey is now buying them with only refurbisment. Surely Turkey will upgrade them when the fun is out playing with the Leo-2A4's.

But is not a matter, my opinion said to me that the 300 leopard-2a4's are a temporary solution till the Turkish national tank program will start and deliver the first Turkish MBT to the TAF. And then we have party :drunk1

[beleg]

One of the main reason Israelis and their huge price tag was chosen is the tech transfer of a 120 mm L52 smothbore gun on Turkish M-60Ts. Its not wether we can make a 120 mm anymore, its can we make a L55 with minimum foreign asistence with limited budget. Or buy the complete L55 gun from Germany or others. I guess if this is not feasible the first Turkish tank prototype might have a L52 gun like in M-60T(sabra). In fact many things will clear up in the coming months after the decision on the foreing company who will asisst Turkish company(ies) who will be responsible for the design and the develeopment of the tank.

The ammo is a problem. I think Turkey will initially build a platform then choose to buy suitable ammo and then develop a national ammo like in the K-9/T-155 co operation with Korea.

Soner like waylander mentioned Germany might have squeezed in the option to modernise a4s by KMW for economical reasons. I really would like to know the details on this but there is nothing revaled yet.The option to modernise these tanks will surely be needed since Leo2 is currently the best tank out there and every penny spent on them is worth.

Sabra is not on par with latest gen tanks on defence comparison but its quite on par with them in fire control systems and the gun. So it has its drawbacks and bonuses. Its a very tought decision if Turkey will go on with Volkan and Sabra projects after the first batches or will seek additional Leo2s.

[Soner1980]

What I will do in such a case, modernize the aging tanks and sell them all to Turkish allies like Azerbaijan and Bosnia Herzegovina. Also the other Turkish countries can make use of our upgrades for their aging T-55 or T-72 tanks.

What Turkey is to learn is the technology and how to upgrade a much more advanced MBT like the Leopard-2A4 to a Leopard-2T for example. That the Leopard-2T can match against the Leopard-2A6 or M1A2 SEP MBT's or something.

But Turkey can also develop more indigenous designs, the Turkish defense industry is also in a good state but it has not much involvement to do something. The first indigenous upgrade package is the Volkan for the Leopard-1's. And later the M60's will also be upgraded by Turkish companies to the Sabra configuration, maybe also with minor changes learnt by the 170 already upgraded M60A1's by IMI in Kayseri.

Back to the Leo-2A4, we know that the whole EU countries are low on budget. The Germans have make a very big fault in 2000 to not to agree with the 1000 Leopard-2A6 co-production in Turkey for the Turkish Armed Forces. That's the reason why Turkey does not want to buy anything from the abroad, only when it is very cheap like the Leo-2A4 deal. The knife is to the bone now... But we also need money and therefore Turkish officials are also not dumb and we will also do anything to do all the job in Turkish soil. Israel is a really a good business partner to sell tech to our country. We will also have research to upgrade the Sabra and Volkan packages to a more advanced package for the upcomming National Tank Design. Turkey is able to produce a hull and turret, main armament, electronics like radio and FCS, night sights, etc.. But about armor technology, I don't know if we can produce laminated armor. Yes we can but effective laminated against HEAT or KE is not easy. Therefore, every tech transfer will bring information and if spend in a good way, Turkey can join the world arms dealers soon.

[Waylander]

Like you two I also think that building electronics, track systems, optics, etc. is not the problem for a normal industrial country.
The main problem ist developing a state of the art laminated armor and a state of the art gun together with its ammo.
For electronics, optics driving systems, etc. there are normally many company which have at least some civil experience in similar systems. For guns and armor there are no civil counterparts and it is very expensive and frustrating developing them without an own stock of experience where you can draw upon.

[Soner1980]

Ok it's true, but with up-armoring you can learn how armor plates are made. Also the armor production needs a test center to test it with live ammunition.

The same for the gaun system. MKE is a company who has produces weapons since it's existence in the early 1950's. They have already produced gun systems for the army. But developing a new gun is also complicated. I also think Turkey will buy from Germany or France or maybe from Ukraine.

The ammo, Turkey is now producing only the 105mm tank ammo like HE, HEAT and APFSDS-T rounds in Kirikkale wich are state-of-the-art products, east province of Ankara in the MKE facilities. Here there is also need for a laborarory to test new material before going to full production. I think it is possible to produce them in Turkey.

[Waylander]

For sure it's possible. Money is the point.
The question is how much do you want to be independent from foreign military industries and how much do you want to pay for that goal.

[Soner1980]

Yes that is the thing that Turkey must decide with limited funding. I think the same like you wrote above. After the willpower, money = everything.

Turkey has first met embargo in 1974 when the Cyprus war borke out. When Turkish Army was to liberate the Turkish people from the Greek supplied EOKA terrorists, some countries has answered with a weapons embargo to Turkey.

Then Turkey was cornered and unable to comply with it's military projects. Also the Turkish defensive industries was only producing ammo. No guns or something. There was a licensed production with the German Shipyard Howaldswerke Deutsche Werft in Kiel to produce the 209 class submarine for the Turkish navy. Then Turkey had WWII era subs and in 1972 the first production was started. In 1976 The 209 class was renamed to the Ay class because of it's local modifications on it and the production was now carried to Turkey in Gölcük.

And only the Cobra ATGM was built entirely in Turkey when it also used in the Cyprus war against the Greeks. And then, Turkey was unable to built something for the army. No tanks, ships, guns, rockets, etc.. Everything was import except the subs.

And now the lessons are learned, like Germany in the 1950's when the ban for weapons production was lifted, so we felt also when the embargo was raised in the 1980's. Now to avoid the effect of any weapons embargo, you have to be selfsuffient to arm your armed forces.

[Waylander]

It's the same with sweden. In WWII they learned it the hard way that they were to vulnerable to foreign weapons imports.
Since then they have had a very good and capable weapons industry for such a small country.
But even this very rich country is not able or willing to produce everything by themselves.

[beleg]

Waylander has hit the mark with his comment on the armor. currently what most people think or worry about is this. Unfortunately we dont know what level of know how Turkey has on armor tech. Hence the need for foreign tech assistance.

I am quite sure the walking parts of the tanks will be supplied from well known companies (like MTU,Renk etc) or licence built in Turkey.

Gun can be a MKEK design since they have a good background with 105mm and now have 120/L52 tech. MKEK has the know how of 120/L52. So the problem is will the TMBT have the same gun or a L55. Ammo will be the next step after gun is decided.

FCS,opticals, electronics required for network centric warfare and other various electronical stuff will be designed & developed by Aselsan. Infact they are already working on prototypes.

Passive protection systems will probably be bought off the shelf.

Active protection systems.. currently no details.

Armor is the main problem. There are researches in Turkey for installing a boron-carbur armor on helicopters and possibly to IFVs against medium to higher caliber cannon fire but laminated high tech tank armor is another story. Its the most difficult part for us and its the most cloudy one. Some say IMI has transferred some knowledge on armor tech and some say this is not true. I believe the second part for now. So foreign asistence will be required here. But i am not sure if a foreign company will want to share their top secret armor tech. I am also not sure if Turkey will really want to let foreigners know what kind of materials are used in the armor and what its weakness might be. So here Korea with their new MTB K-2 might be a better tech supplier than Germany or France.

An important note Ukraine is out of the question. For the request for technical support & assistance (RfTSA)

* Agency for Defence Development [S. Korea],
* GIAT Industries [France],
* Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH & Co. KG [Germany], and
* Rheinmetall LandSysteme GmbH [Germany].

have replied and one of them will be selected by SSM (secreteriat for defence industry) to work with the Turkish constructor company..

Not that other than Ukraine, USA is not on the list with GDLS maker of M1 ;)

regards

[Soner1980]

It is true that the Us haven't listed. They will sell only and for strategic marketing, the US does not want to sell technology. They want to lead and not te be leaded.

But is not a problem, the US M1A2 is also not the best MBT anymore. At least, one Dutch high ranking officer said to me that the Abrams does not deserve to be listed in the 'best tanks of the world' it is also expensive and not reliable. Why not reliably? Uses more fuel than expected in Iraq. Every 100 km tanks must be refueled. And readiness for war was also low rated. The most frustrating is that the maintenance cost was very high.

Poland is known user of the Leo-2A4 and are played out of the old Leo-2A4. They have seen that the A4's are obselete by todays standards in armor. With DU rounds it is possible to penetrate the front at 2 km range with the new M821A2 or A3.

The 298 Leopard-2A4 is only to fill the gap That Greece is buying about 150 Leo-2A4's and later the A6E. That's the reason Turkey is about to produce it's own MBT in the next decade. More revolutionaire and better in maintenance. Overall, a completely new tank will arise and will replace the total amount of aging 1369 M48A5T1 tanks.

[Big-E]

It is true that the Us haven't listed. They will sell only and for strategic marketing, the US does not want to sell technology. They want to lead and not te be leaded.

But is not a problem, the US M1A2 is also not the best MBT anymore. At least, one Dutch high ranking officer said to me that the Abrams does not deserve to be listed in the 'best tanks of the world' it is also expensive and not reliable. Why not reliably? Uses more fuel than expected in Iraq. Every 100 km tanks must be refueled. And readiness for war was also low rated. The most frustrating is that the maintenance cost was very high.

Please tell me why you have to lie about the M1A2 Abrahms. There is no tank in the world that can claim it's premier spot as #1, especially to be taken off the best tanks list period. Your claims of reliability are totally false. You claim that she is unreliable b/c she only gets 100km off of 500 gallons of gas... I call this a lie, she gets 290 MILES off a tank, that equals 466km, beating your false claims by a factor of 4.6! That 4.6 equals about the factor you divide the true capabilities of the tank and her readiness levels, all US M1A2 tank brigades rate at 96% operational readiness after 2003, higher than ANY countries tank forces. The reason her maintenance costs are so high b/c US actually uses her tanks unlike most countries.

[Waylander]

Not again a nr.1 discussion. You cannot really say who is nr.1!!!!! :mad:

I also heard these rumors about fuel problems and some minor maintenance problems with the turbine.

But for sure you have to take into account that the US tank force has much more operations than most other tank forces in the world.

If I look at how many maintenance and reliability problems other NATO forces and ex-Warsaw Pact forces have during maneuvers the operational rates of the US tanks are good (Especially for battlefield environments).

[beleg]

Agreed. M1A2 is a superb tank and i am sure Turkish Armed Forces would have it considered if sufficient tech transfer was allowed (this is not possible because of US laws). Same laws caused the AH-1Z and AH-64D to be out of the ATAK tender as well.

As in all equipment imo there is no best in tanks too. Battlefield is not won with tanks or helos or infantry alone.. Its the combined use of tactical assets in the most efficient way that brings victory in a battlefield.

[Soner1980]

Yes ok, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and T-84 scored very well in the tests. But it is reported that the Leopard-2A6 was the best in the trials in Turkey. The M1A2 is better in trials than the Leo-2 in US soil because of the country or other things like the ground or something. General Dynamics is also offering the M1A2 with a German powerpack called EuroPack or something.

It is also known by Turkish Army that the Leo-2A6 is faster ready for war than the M1A2, maybe in couple of minutes but in war times, every second does count. I have read this and ofcource I wasn't there when the trials were. But if the US Congress had approved the tech transfer, they will try to sell the Abrams in the Abrams Lite version like the Apache with a lesser capable radar system for tech transfer.

Overall, the M1A2 was also in my favor for the Turkish Armored Units but the test was clear that the longer barreled Leo-2A6 was more useful than the Abrams in Turkish hands.

[Big-E]

Yes ok, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and T-84 scored very well in the tests. But it is reported that the Leopard-2A6 was the best in the trials in Turkey. The M1A2 is better in trials than the Leo-2 in US soil because of the country or other things like the ground or something. General Dynamics is also offering the M1A2 with a German powerpack called EuroPack or something.

It is also known by Turkish Army that the Leo-2A6 is faster ready for war than the M1A2, maybe in couple of minutes but in war times, every second does count. I have read this and ofcource I wasn't there when the trials were. But if the US Congress had approved the tech transfer, they will try to sell the Abrams in the Abrams Lite version like the Apache with a lesser capable radar system for tech transfer.

Overall, the M1A2 was also in my favor for the Turkish Armored Units but the test was clear that the longer barreled Leo-2A6 was more useful than the Abrams in Turkish hands.

We are not very impressed when a debate includes many "or somethings" in it. We need to see the test results if you could provide them please.

[beleg]

The tank tender in early 2000s resulted with selection of Leopard IIA6. The competitors were including Leclerc,M1,T-84(ukr). Leopard II excelled in all the field and fire tests meeting or exceeding Turkish Armed Forces expectations however due to political problems with Germany at that time the deal never was signed.

Meanwhile on USA and Israel competed for the M60 modernisation project, USA offering M-60 with M1 tower , while Israel offered the SabraIII. USA withdrew in favor of Israel while Israel didnt participate in the tank tender.

[Waylander]

The same result like in the tank trials of Sweden, Spain and Greece before...
But the M1 is battle proven... ;) (Just a little joke)

The main problem was indeed a political one. The german side was not willing to sale them to turkey because we are normally not allowed to sell mil tech to unstable/crisis regions. And east turkey is definitely no stable region. Some of our politicians where worried about that the Leos could be used to surpress the kurdes.
Now this changed but by now Turkey wants to modernize the Leos by themselfes.
We want to make money. ;)
That's the reason for Turkey's trying to develop a new tank of their own.

[Soner1980]

There is a commercial of a chocolate called ROLO here in the Netherlands. They say 'Bedenk goed wat je met de laatste Rolo doet' this means think again what you want to do with your last Rolo chocolate. The same factor for the damned Green party in Germany wich supported the PKK terrorist insurgency to chop our country in pieces. But they failed and PKK is not called an enemy now because most of them have killed or have surrendered. After the rejection of the German cause, Turkey has given up the tank project because of the economic crisis and choosed for the Israeli Sabra upgrade of $ 670 million for the 170 USMC (supplied for free) M60A1 tanks plus the tech transfer for the electronics and mechanics. The armor is not included in the tech transfer:rolleyes: but it is also easily done if you pay Chinese firms I think.

It is not the Sabra III upgrade what many people thinks. It is a Sabra II upgrade but with the Merkava III bas Fire control system and a 980 hp diesel engine and the LAHAT system. The 120mm CTG is almost the same as in the Merkava 4 MBT. So, it is a very special version I think...

In 2003, Germany made an offer to re-open the tank project but Erdogan has answered the question with that Turkey does not have any interest anymore in German tanks and Turkey has plans to manufacture it's own MBT in the future. Yes, German politicians did not spend their ROLO chocolate in the right time...

The evidence of the test result of the 4 tanks? I'm not the official that has the files of the test result. I had read it on newspapers and it was given from the Turkish Secreteriat of Defence. I can't help you for this but if you are very interested in the test result I can only say just ask it from the Turkish Secreteriat of Defence. ;)

[Big-E]

There is a commercial of a chocolate called ROLO here in the Netherlands. They say 'Bedenk goed wat je met de laatste Rolo doet' this means think again what you want to do with your last Rolo chocolate. The same factor for the damned Green party in Germany wich supported the PKK terrorist insurgency to chop our country in pieces. But they failed and PKK is not called an enemy now because most of them have killed or have surrendered.

Getting a little political aren't we? :nono

[Waylander]

Better to think twice were to sell our weapons!
It is our decision were to sell our weapons and just think about who could use our weapons if we would sell them to everyone without scruples. (Lets take the stingers of the Taliban as an example...)

But Big-E is right, it's getting too political.

[Soner1980]

Yes, it is a political question and my opinion to that is one word: bullshit.

If the Green party of Germany had approved the joint production for 1000 Leopard-2A6 tanks, than Turkey has now the first delivery and Germany had 7 billion at least receiving now just when Germany needed it. Yes, you should think twice were to sell your weapons and you must think 3 times where to buy your weapons that you can not eat crack from politicians. Turkey bought 375 leopard-1 series tanks in 1980-'84 and Turkey may not use them in conflicts? Are the weapons for show or something? Why Turkey pay for it, when we are in war (Germany vs. Turkey, it will never happen we know but just think if...) then Turkey would use German made Leopard-1's against Germany. Just saying using German pistols to execute German POW's. This is very painful when a Turkish foreign ministry spokesman told to the media in 1998 when Turkey started a big operation against the terrorist PKK in northern Iraq and the 'Greenery' party made big problems also effecting German economy. Shall Turkey ever buy weapons from Germany now? Turkey has now bought licenses to produce some vehicles, one example the Fennek. Now Turkey will produce self it's vehicles with German origin but Germany has lost in long terms only for one thing in a very dumb action. Germany can earn from Turkey ($ 7bln tank tender example) but Germany can not earn from terrorist.

And the tender in producing tanks under license, the US M1A2 abrams was also selected to the best tanks of the world. There are few best tanks in the world to mention: Leo-2A6, M1A2 SEP, Leclerc, T-84 and the Challenger 2. Challenger was the worstest of all 5 and then the leclerc, then T-84, The M1A2 SEP 2nd and Leo-2A6 the best. All had excellent scores but there is ony one the best choosen because of it's lower maintenance cost and quicker prepared for war: The Leo-2A6. The M1A2 SEP lost it because of it's Gas Turbine, slightly taked more time to be ready after operation and a bit more expensive in maintenance than the Leo-2A6. Overall, all 5 were good in warfare capabilities, mobility and reliability.

Also some rumors were in the US congress to not to sale the SEP version but only the M1A1 version like Egypt (also called the Abrams Lite in Turkish media when heard). Then Turkey has kicked out the US of it's list and only the T-84 and the Leo-2A6 was in the list. The T-84 is also a good tank and it is known of the T-80's succes. The T-84 has much more sophisticated computer systems than the original Russian T-80 and is more reliable too. Also it is cheaper and very robust for it's price/quality ratio. The Ukranians has confirmed to transfer technology and also to co-produce it for further customers. Why the US does not want to share tech is that the US will maintain it's exclusivitality, yes I understand but that time is over now.

[Big-E]

Yes, it is a political question and my opinion to that is one word: bullshit.

If the Green party of Germany had approved the joint production for 1000 Leopard-2A6 tanks, than Turkey has now the first delivery and Germany had 7 billion at least receiving now just when Germany needed it. Yes, you should think twice were to sell your weapons and you must think 3 times where to buy your weapons that you can not eat crack from politicians. Turkey bought 375 leopard-1 series tanks in 1980-'84 and Turkey may not use them in conflicts? Are the weapons for show or something? Why Turkey pay for it, when we are in war (Germany vs. Turkey, it will never happen we know but just think if...) then Turkey would use German made Leopard-1's against Germany. Just saying using German pistols to execute German POW's. This is very painful when a Turkish foreign ministry spokesman told to the media in 1998 when Turkey started a big operation against the terrorist PKK in northern Iraq and the 'Greenery' party made big problems also effecting German economy. Shall Turkey ever buy weapons from Germany now? Turkey has now bought licenses to produce some vehicles, one example the Fennek. Now Turkey will produce self it's vehicles with German origin but Germany has lost in long terms only for one thing in a very dumb action. Germany can earn from Turkey ($ 7bln tank tender example) but Germany can not earn from terrorist.

:confused:



Why the US does not want to share tech is that the US will maintain it's exclusivitality, yes I understand but that time is over now.

It's not over b/c it will end up in the PRC.:shudder

[beleg]

Big-E you should rather worry about your closest ally , Israel than Turkey ;)

[Big-E]

Big-E you should rather worry about your closest ally , Israel than Turkey ;)

I AM worried about them!:shudder

[Soner1980]

Good point beleg, Israel is now giving us technology what is also US developed tech and further 'Israelized' version, like the Knight III Fire control system in the Sabra upgrade.

If the US had agreed to give some tech to Turkey in the ATAK project for the AH-64D Longbow and the M1A2 SEP, than the US has earned at least $10 billion and a US citizen had also profit of it.

But, now what you said Big-E, it will com from the east (China, Pakistan or Korea) I think. But recently the US has agreed to transfer F-35 tech to developing countries and the sale of the F-22 raptor what was a big debate in the US Congress.

[Big-E]

Big-E you should rather worry about your closest ally , Israel than Turkey ;)

I am worried about them! We should only give them dated technology, instead they have a whole defense industry based on our tech that they sell and claim as their own.

[Soner1980]

I have found something about the Turkish Leopard-2A4's bought from German army stocks last year. It seems that the Turkish Army has been offered to upgrade their Leo-2A4's by ASELSAN. The upgrade comprises of the Kartalgözü 2 thermal imager and a longer 120mm tank gun. Also some extra armor will be placed on the front of the hull and side-front skirt.

But it is not clear of this upgrade will be done after the refurbishment by the German firm Kraus-Maffei-Wegmann.

Picture of Leo-2A4 (http://www.sg-produkties.nl/Leopard 2A4 - ASELSAN's modernization offer.jpg)

[Waylander]

Nice.
Should improve the capabilities in a good way without too much time and effort.
The periscope is also at a different position. Maybe it is the same solution like in germany with a new TI in a new periscope.

[Soner1980]

Maybe, but about the electronics I am not laying wake-up so much about it last days because all possible. Turkey has a lot of knowledge in designing and producing state of the art electronic systems for AFV's and other military vehicles.

But the longer barrelled 120mm gun, is this import from Rheinmetal? The muzzle brake is the same as the original one.

[beleg]

That picture was taken in IDEF2005. When I talked to Aselsan & KMW engineers there , Aselsan engineers were pessimist about such an upgrade to be done locally, saying German govt. was not allowing it. KMW was also insisting on modernising the tanks (even upgrading them to A6 std).

There is still no news, even on defence mags on the course of the project.

Where are those tanks? :confused:

[swerve]

But the longer barrelled 120mm gun, is this import from Rheinmetal? The muzzle brake is the same as the original one.

I'd like to know that. There are a few longer 120mm guns around than the original Rheinmetall L44. As well as their own L55, there's the GIAT L52, RuAG L50, the Morozov KBM2 L50, & I think the IMI gun on the Merkava is also longer.

[beleg]

The 120 mm gun on SABRAIII of Turkey will be L42.. The National tank might have this gun initially as well..

[swerve]

The 120 mm gun on SABRAIII of Turkey will be L42.. The National tank might have this gun initially as well..

I presume the relatively short barrel is specifically for the M60, since AFAIK the IMI gun which it's a version of has a longer barrel as standard. In which case, it would seem sensible to use the same gun with a longer barrel for any new tank, or for any retrofit to tanks suitable for a longer gun, such as Leo 2.

[Waylander]

If the tanks uses the same muzzle break than there should be not much more power in it. :confused:
If you use a L/55 you also have to use better muzzle breaks.

[Soner1980]

A muzzle brake, this is mostly found in the middle or almost in the middle of the barrel. The 105mm rifle has it slightly to the inwart to the tank and the Russian 125mm has slightly to the mouth of the center. But the Leo-2A4 above in what I had attached shown like it is the same muzzle brake of the L-44 and L-55 and the Japanese variant. Also the US M256.

Does Turkey signed an agreement with KMW for the installation of the L-55 gun in the Leo2a4?

[Waylander]

Arrrgh, my fault. I muddled up muzzle and recoil. :(

[Soner1980]

No problemo, we help each other ;)

But you see that it is the same. I don't think that Turkish firms would produce a knock of (from the one delivered in 2000, the Leopard-2A6 for the MBT tender) because Turkey respects all licences (so far :D ) and I don't think that Turkey does take any responsibilities.

[Waylander]

Yeah, we do. :)

It is really a problem. We want to get the money you would like to do it by yourself. Finding a tradeoff seems to be difficult. But time will tell.

[Soner1980]

Like the 15mm L-39 howitsers for the M-44T and M-52T SP Arty, the Rheinmetal also licenced Turkey for the local production of the 155mm howitsers. I think this would also be the same with the L-55 if the German Parliament approve ofcouse and if there is a payable bid from Rheinmetal because the new systems are often expensive. Time will tell, yes we will see.

[beleg]

@Waylander

Is there any news in German defence media about the Leo2A4 transfer to Turkey? Someone told me there might be a problem in the deal, is there any news?

thx

[Soner1980]

According to SSM, Savunma Sanayii Müstesarligi (Defence Industries Secretariat) are the delivery under way. But this is a new problem than if there is such a problem.

If there is a problem, I think that the use of the German Leo's in south eastern anatolia is a 'big' problem for EU. I can not say that the EU is working with the PKK but also I can not tell that the EU is on our side.

The other problem is that Turkey want to do some upgrades and refurbishments in Turkey by Turkish firms. Like I tell next week, ASELSAN had offered the upgrade with a longer 120mm L-55 gun and a Turkish designed Kartalgözü thermal viewer with better performance.

If there is an other problem, I want to hear from others...:D

[brian1225]

Being a tanker who has spent time in Kurdistan, I can attest that the region is not "untankable". While Armor has limited ability to manuever in mountainous terrain, it is invaluable for it's ability to deliver fire power to in difficult to reach places (Tanks do wonders in breaking up ambushes by light forces).

As for the Turks not using tanks against the Kurds, I'd say since they've used them in the past why would they not use them again in the future. (my source for the use of tanks is active Peshmerga members).

But I do think it's a great upgrade for the Turkish Army, one that is needed for a country in a bad neighborhood.

[Soner1980]

Look Brian, first explain the word 'Kurdistan'. Kurdistan does not excist and you are using words that is very sensitive for the Turkish community. But I know that you mean northern Iraq. We also fight with the peshmerga's against the PKK. There are no peshmerga's anymore, they also joined the Iraqi army now. If Kurdistan appear on the map, than Turkey will cross the border with Iraq before EU would like to annex Turkish soil and handover to the Kurds... Do you like to give Texas away to the Kurds so they can built Kurdistan? Is the same for us... Unity is very important!

Back to toppic: That Turkey might not use German Leo-2A4's is a weak action of some politicians to 'couff' the Turkish soldiers like in Bosnia so that the PKK terrorist can do what they want. You have weapons but you are not allowed to use them. But I also heard that Germany had removed that point in the contract that Turkey is free using it everywere because PKK is now in the EU terror list for a couple of years now. That is the reason why Turkey wants to produce weapons by itself instead of buying. We also know the the A4 will be for closing the gap till the production starts for the first Turkish MBT.

[Waylander]

I've seen nothing new in the newspaper or TV about the deal. Also nothing in german defence forums.

[Soner1980]

Hearing now any problems when the delivery starts is not natural. Maybe some rumors but if it's true, than Turkey will not receive any Leopard-2A4. On august the 30th we will see on TRT (Turkish TV) live from Ankara Culture park when there is a military parade that many Turkish vehicles will be shown up to public. I think that the Sabra and the Leo-2A4 will appear in small numbers besides the M60A3's and Leo-1A3's. Also the Turkish designed AKINCI (ACV-S) will show up I think. We will see...

[beleg]

@Waylander

Thx..Well no news might be better than bad news.. :D

I think most if not all of the LeoIIs will be positioned in Thrace and perhaps some in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.. These are the only areas that Turkey faces any armored threat. The IFVs and M-60s are more than enough to deal with the terrorists inside and outside our borders..

[Soner1980]

I'm with you beleg, Turkey is to buy Leo-II against the Helenic threat.

The Sabra tanks also will be stationed in Thrace and Cyprus. And some of them also against Armenia and Iranian borders. The whole M60 fleet is to be upgraded remember that. And the others like M48A5-T1 and -T2 will be stationed against the terrorists ofcourse. But also the T1 and T2 can face a T-72 of the Syrians too :) because of it's FCS and 105mm gun ofcouse, and of the 25.000 MBT only 300-400 still working. Wow! :) rather it's to be phased out of service when our first MBT will roll down from the factory.

But beleg, the AIFV's will also stay in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus because of the need of an IFV and maybe some Sabra's will join them to against the T-80's of the Greek Cypriot's.

Again, this topic is done. It is not advancing anymore in data and we will see the first delivery batch in Ankara. :D

[fgiorgos]

Listen. There is no such thing as the so-called "Hellenic Threat". What are we gonna do? Invade you? Seriously.

Turkish Generals that are in total control of the turkish banking, educational and political system in general, must invent threats in order to justify huge defence spending and their goals in the inferior state. As a citizen of Hellas, i have nothing to seperate with Turks. I consider them my brothers. We live in the same region, we have a lot in common and we should have the same goals.

Your generals are the ones to invade our airspace daily, they are the ones that invaded Cyprus and caused deaths over the Hellenic and the Turkish people. The thing is... They tell you, you believe they are right.

By the way... There in no Turkish Rupublic in Cyprus. There is only the Republic of Cyprus. A republic with Turkish and Hellenic citizens.

Turkey is a state that wants to join the EU. If so, Turkey must accept the Armenian killings, you must allow the turkish-kurds to be tought their language as you should, according to the Declaration of Human Rights. Turkey must also decrease the political role of the Army and stop talking about "Hellenic threats" and cause incidents such the one with the coalision of F-16s over the Hellenic Airspace in Aegean Sea. It must also accept the Hellenic right to increase ints naval borders to 12 miles as every other country on the planet (includin Turkey).

I don't know whether we should tolerate the behaviour of Turkish Generals as much as we do for the shake of peace...

[hk_yilmaz]

Listen. There is no such thing as the so-called "Hellenic Threat". What are we gonna do? Invade you? Seriously.

Turkish Generals that are in total control of the turkish banking, educational and political system in general, must invent threats in order to justify huge defence spending and their goals in the inferior state. As a citizen of Hellas, i have nothing to seperate with Turks. I consider them my brothers. We live in the same region, we have a lot in common and we should have the same goals.

Your generals are the ones to invade our airspace daily, they are the ones that invaded Cyprus and caused deaths over the Hellenic and the Turkish people. The thing is... They tell you, you believe they are right.

By the way... There in no Turkish Rupublic in Cyprus. There is only the Republic of Cyprus. A republic with Turkish and Hellenic citizens.

Turkey is a state that wants to join the EU. If so, Turkey must accept the Armenian killings, you must allow the turkish-kurds to be tought their language as you should, according to the Declaration of Human Rights. Turkey must also decrease the political role of the Army and stop talking about "Hellenic threats" and cause incidents such the one with the coalision of F-16s over the Hellenic Airspace in Aegean Sea. It must also accept the Hellenic right to increase ints naval borders to 12 miles as every other country on the planet (includin Turkey).

I don't know whether we should tolerate the behaviour of Turkish Generals as much as we do for the shake of peace...

First of all Turkey is a democratic country. Our generals do only their "job".
You must give Turks in your country to speak their language free.
The innocent people were killed in Cyprus. Babes,children,women and men.
North Cyprus Turkish republic is a free country. You must understand this.
There was no Armenian suicide. Armenians killed innocent Turks and they are lying. Also they are the inveders in Azerbaycan.
Aegean sea is not only yours. If you dare enough to increase your naval border to 12 miles, this is a war reason.

Good luck.

[swerve]

Please - both Greeks & Turks - can you stay on topic, & keep your political disagreements out of the discussion?