Pak to get 60 US cobra gunship copters by year-end

[ullu]

:smokingc:


Pak to get 60 US copters by year-end

http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=13276614
Saturday, 04 October , 2003, 16:11

Washington: Pakistan is likely get 60 attack helicopters from the US by the year-end. The Bush Administration has approved the sale, The Dawn has reported.
The helicopters, that will include the 'Cobra' gun ships, the paper said in its report, while adding that these copters would be used to help Pakistan fight Taliban and Al Qaeda activists hiding in the country's tribal belt.



According to the report, Islamabad believes that the differences over the US' request for Pakistani troops for Iraq will not delay their delivery.

It may be noted that both Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali have been strongly raising the issue of the arms imbalance vis-a-vis India.

After his talks with Jamali in Washington on Thursday, US Secretary of State Colin Powell had told a group of Pakistani journalists that the US would play its role in maintaining "the balance of power in South Asia."

Jamali is believed to have told Powell that India's recent military purchases from Israel and other sources had 'grossly disturbed' the balance of power in the region.

The Jamali-Powell talks focused mainly on the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan where US troops are facing a sudden resurgence in terrorist attacks, diplomatic sources said.ANI

[Red aRRow]

First of all this Pakistani attitude has to change. Pakistan seems to have a very short memory. What happened to all the military aid when the Americans withdrew from Afghanistan is common knowledge and now going back again to the same suppliers is madness. Alternative suppliers such as China or France should be engaged instead of relying on just one unreliable ( to say the least ) supplier; while steaming ahead with indigenization.

[Winter]

Let's face it....The U.S. in most respects has far superior military equipment then anything China or France could put a price tag on...Also there are other variables involved that may not be readily apparent to us.....Such as passive influence and going prices which could affect such a choice of supplier.

[Su_37]

these chopers r free of cost but with strings attach . but this an excuse by the amercian to supply arms to pak so that they don;t think that r vurnable againt india .

More over amrica don;t wnat pak to become china market.

[ullu]

Pakistan is a china market already just like INdia is Russian market.

[corsair7772]

Wat do u suppose China can give us in gunships?
The armed Dauphin and perhapes the Mi-17?
4get the dauphin. We shud get rooivalks from the South Africans and Mi-17s from China.

[umair]

Guys this news is true.My dad's cousin is in army aviation and has been in the States since this September.All I can got to know from him was that he and some other pilots are under going training of somesort.
Ps: he was the commander of one of our two existing Cobra squadrons so I pretty much suspect that we may be getting the Ah1w or Ah1z Cobra cause if they are to be the same old Ah1s's then there would have been no need to send the pilots to the States for training.

[corsair7772]

But shud we take the gunships? Its really attractive but well be more dependant on spares than ever. We shud get the Rooivalks. The gunship is pretty good and itll do its job and nuthin lwess. The AH-1 sale is just another piece of american appeasment.

[Aussie Digger]

The Cobra is an extremely capable attack helicopter that is battle proven and has significant upgrade potential (just look at the new AH - 1Z). The Rooivalk is untested in warfare and their are currently only 12 examples in service with the South African Defence Force (which as far as I'm aware has no further plans to acquire any more.) this would surely create supportability issues, given that SADF is the sole user of this aircraft. The small number of aircraft would also mean that the cost of this aircraft would be little less if not significantly more than refurbished SuperCobra's. The Australian Defence Force was offered 40 AH-1W Supercobra's in the early 90's for $200million or thereabout. It declined this offer and subsequently went on to order 22 Eurocopter Tigers for $1.2 Billion. They sure are good 'shoppers' the Australian Government... I'm sure 40 upgraded AH-1W (to AH-1Z standard) would have cost less than the $1 Billion dollar difference and provided significantly greater capability, plus they would have been in service over 10 years earlier, but hey what would we know? The best argument for the Cobra for Pakistan is that it is a relatively cheap proven performer that you could have in service very quickly. Plus I believe Pakistan already operates an earlier model, thus ensuring a quick transition into useable capability. It's all very well to buy something new, but it takes a long time to properly introduce a new capability to an army. An expanded capability can however be introduced much quicker. Cheers.

[farooqjalalmalik]

I agree with Aussiedigger. First things frist though. We should firstly get these helicopter gunships from the U.S - I am sure the Senate blocked any sale of military hardware to Pak. If a sale was going ahead, Musharraf and his general cronies would have been publicising the deal by now (to increase Pak nation's morale/confidence) in light of India is massive accumulation of new weapon systems.

To be honest, you know what I would like. Not 100 gunships but the same amount of money going into Pakistani people - their health, education and longterm well being. Let PAk and India stop this nonsense. We must develop. Why should we be the dumping ground of the West's weapons. Why not call it a truce and look after our people. The Pakistan Ar,y does not want peace as Im sure the Indian Army. After all, they are both priviligd classes and who would wanna bite on the hand that feeds them.

I think we should use these forums to demand peace and mainatin a small deterrent. Then Pak/India should leave each other alone and concentrate on their people. They should become examples of good friendship and should remain as different countries but with similar values and desire for peace. They should resolve Kashmir (ideally through the Kasmiri peole but more likely by accepting de facto LOC). Guys, think of all those beggars, heroin addicts, taleban guys, sweepers, lower castes (in India) that could bebefit from our massive spending on defence.

Only Pak and Inida can bring about peace not these military suppliersa. They want us to grow hatred so we can but their weapons. Their countries are running on the blood and sweat of our poor.

I hope some military minded people in both countries read my post and wake up that its not our enemy that is our neighbour but our own desires and selfishness. We need to make a difference - thats why Jinnah and Gandhi created us both respectively. Let us not tarnish the visions of these two great individuals/statesmen.

Support Peace in South Adia and Economic/Human Development for ALL

[corsair7772]

Its not abt the Gunship. The AH-1 outstrips the rooivalk in performance. But the point is:
FREEDOM FROM EMBARGOES

[JTF-2 HOPE]

First of all this Pakistani attitude has to change. Pakistan seems to have a very short memory. What happened to all the military aid when the Americans withdrew from Afghanistan is common knowledge and now going back again to the same suppliers is madness. Alternative suppliers such as China or France should be engaged instead of relying on just one unreliable ( to say the least ) supplier; while steaming ahead with indigenization.

Your right about China but saying that France doesn't have
its stuff, you are way off buddy. France is one of the best providers
to Pakistan. Its 50 year old Mirages still have the balls to hit the sky,
and do a satisfactory job. That is called pure quality.

[Aussie Digger]

Well, if you think buying French is buying freedom from Embargoes why don't you ask Argentina if they share the same opinion? Or Australia for that matter... The French are as bad as anyone when it comes to supplying arms and equipment during wartime. Cheers.

[Majin-Vegeta]

yea but they dont hate pakistan and are willing to supply to em :P america isnt..remember wat happened when america only supplied HALF the fighters it promised? jeez..we dont want that happening agian..i wouldnt even talk to that cheap ugly freak again, just buy Chinese/European stuff..sure u could buy Western fighters off some other countries just like Pakistan's buyin F-16C's from Belgium...

I mean its like begging someone :S if they dont listen and beat u..dont go to them or u'll get the same attitude sometime in ur life again..just go with someone else :S

[Aussie Digger]

Still my advice would be to build up your logistical support facilities so that you are not relying on the somewhat fickle French government to supply you with parts and munitions during a time of crisis. As I've pointed out, things don't always go as planned...

[Oqaab]

Saturday, 04 October , 2003, 16:11

2003 gone. No sign of those 60 choppers..... :?

[elkaboingo]

not all 60 are ah-1, im positive about 20 are bell 407's and the rest may be the ah-1's.

who gives a @!#$% about embargoes, we survived the first one and are now indigenizing almost every thing. and the french are fairly reliable providers but their equipment is sometimes overrated.

yes the super cobra is a good choice. we know cobras very well. china is still working on an attack helo. if spares are needed canabalise the old cobras. the cobras are even better than apache which is too big a target.

plus, we need these helos to take out IA tanks like arjun and t-90

[gf0012-aust]

Is the PAF looking at UCAV's? Might be cheaper and more effective in some scenarios.. The US used Hellfire armed predators in Iraq and Afghanistan to effect.

[elkaboingo]

yes, integrated dynamics is working on UCAV's of our own.

[gf0012-aust]

cant see a rebel in a building holding a manpad or something

Not unless he wants to experience backdraft when he launches it :lolol ....

[elkaboingo]

cant see a rebel in a building holding a manpad or something

Not unless he wants to experience backdraft when he launches it :lolol ....

:onfloorl: :flame

[farina]

I heard some of these cobra gunships were already delivered and are petrolling Pakistans western border hunting down Taliban and AL-kaeda elements. Pakistan has been very secrative of its weapons imports, most militaries are thats why it was never in the media other than that cobra's will be given to pak!

[The Watcher]

I heard some of these cobra gunships were already delivered and are petrolling Pakistans western border hunting down Taliban and AL-kaeda elements. Pakistan has been very secrative of its weapons imports, most militaries are thats why it was never in the media other than that cobra's will be given to pak!

news is cool but...
source ??? :alian

[umair]

I heard some of these cobra gunships were already delivered and are petrolling Pakistans western border hunting down Taliban and AL-kaeda elements. Pakistan has been very secrative of its weapons imports, most militaries are thats why it was never in the media other than that cobra's will be given to pak!

news is cool but...
source ??? :alian

Must be someone on the inside.I got the same thing too from my AA uncle and he was incharge of the whole deal from our side.The rest I don't know the exact number will be delivered sometime this year.

[elkaboingo]

i doubt cobras would be used for hunting rebels, they arent designed for that and i dont know how effective they would be. i think they would use the bell 407s for that. just have two Mgs on it and its great for strafing a house or something.

also, fill me in, all of you who have contacts on the 'inside' thanks. greatly appreciated.

[farina]

I heard some of these cobra gunships were already delivered and are petrolling Pakistans western border hunting down Taliban and AL-kaeda elements. Pakistan has been very secrative of its weapons imports, most militaries are thats why it was never in the media other than that cobra's will be given to pak!

news is cool but...
source ??? :alian

Must be someone on the inside.I got the same thing too from my AA uncle and he was incharge of the whole deal from our side.The rest I don't know the exact number will be delivered sometime this year.

They will be delivered as they come available. I believe some armybase in USA had too many of them and now they are up for export and luckily its pakistan's turn. Some reward for being a partner in war against terror.

Eklboingo, they are excellent against taliban and al-kaeda forces due to the nature of weapons they carry(both cobras and talibs). Moving around in the mountains isn't easy and I think cobras do a great job at that. Initially, pakistan requested cobras for such purpose.

[gf0012-aust]

Does anyone know what the effective maximum altitude of operation is? My understanding is that the Cobras are better at altitude work than the russian or french helo's, but thats only hearsay from people I know.

I know that the Taiwanese has significant problems with performance and lift out of their mirages at altitude than F16's. I was under the impression that some French helos also tended to starve faster as well.

[elkaboingo]

we use the french allouette for high altitude supply in siachen... so i dont really know :D

[farina]

There is a picture of a Pakistani soldier praying while his cobra is parked behind him somewhere high like siachen. Can someone pleease get that?

[elkaboingo]

you have to have a really high rotor speed as the airs thinner. we also use that really small bell helo (cant remember teh name)

[gf0012-aust]

what altitude is siachen?

I thought that alouettes were used by the swiss for alpine rescue work. So on that basis they should be reasonable platforms.

[elkaboingo]

its 21,000 ft (you made me look that up in a book ;) )

[gf0012-aust]

:D the next tricky question is what is the effective altitude of operation for a solid fueled manpad...

if its greater than 21k, then you better get some good stand off weapons... :)

[elkaboingo]

:D the next tricky question is what is the effective altitude of operation for a solid fueled manpad...

if its greater than 21k, then you better get some good stand off weapons... :)

scary thing is bad weather is what downs the most helos up there. for AA, there is the mg3 machine gun, i dont know what the indians have though.

attack helos arent used up there, i think too heavy. when you go up that high, the fighting gets a little bit 'primative' ;)

[Aussie Digger]

I'm certainly no expert on high altitude Helo Ops, but I've read that the US was desperate in Afganistan to get more CH-47D Chinooks in theatre as they were the only US helicopter capable of operating at the extreme altitudes of Afganistan due to their size and power. Wouldn't this then mean that a powerful helicopter like the Supercobra would also be suitable for the high altitude?

[Winter]

Putting it roughly, the standard AH-1 Cobra has a ceiling of just below 15,000ft and the latest model (AH-1Z SuperCobra) around and over 20,000ft.

:frosty

Hope that helps. : )

[Red aRRow]

Both Pakistan and India use the EUROCOPTER (AEROSPATIALE) SA 315B LAMA II in Siachin for high altitude operations. Although the Puma (and others) can reach uptil the basecamp altitudes..only the Lama goes in to the front lines. No other helicopter in the world can operate at that altitude.

Now regarding the cobra. In the news report around 2 months ago when Pakistani army launched an operation against suspected anti social elements in the tribal agency (Angor Adda operation)...AH-1 Cobras were used supported by Special forces on the ground.
The altitude in the tribal areas is nowhere near the Northern Himalayan regions...and the Cobra can easily operate there.

Oh and here is the picture for Farina:
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/userpics/normal_Pak_AH-1Cobra-www.DefenceTalk.com12.jpg

[Albaian]

Has anyone thought of somethingcool about the Cobras.....if we run short of spares...we can buy from Iran...who make their own version of Cobras.

[Bilal_Khan]

According to my sources the U.S is to supply Pakistan with 40 AH-1F Attack Helicopters, and 40 UH-1H Medium Transport Helicopters by the start of 2005.
Initially the deal reported to have 30 AH-1Fs, and 30 UH-1Hs to be given to Pakistan in aid. The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps added 10 more AH-1Fs, and 10 UH-1Hs with it's own money. The 80 Helicopters are used, and will heavily be refurbished making then good as new.

These 80 New Helicopters will reinforce the fleet of 20 AH-1Ss, and 20 UH-1Hs totalling 120 American Helicopters in the PA. Along with that I could expect 25 Mi-17 Heavy Transport Helicopters, and 25 Panther Medium Transport Helicopters.

[Red aRRow]

Well that is nice if it is happening. By the way where did you get the numbers for the Mi-17 and the Puma. (I presume you meant the Puma). Bilal.

[Ameer Kiani]

It's been like 5 months and still no word on this...

[ullu]

they were supposed to be delivered in 2004 so its not over yet. :P

[corsair7772]

We shud still concentrate on reducing the amount of US equipment in our arsenals. The Rooivalk is a suitable alternative to the AH-1 and the ? Oryx ? is a helicopter capable of using in high altitude areas. Moreover we shud get the Mi-17s from China and some other helicopter for ASW. The americans r just itching to clamp an embargoe on us so all their military equipment basically becums useless in wartime and reduces the amount of time pakistan needs to fight a war.

[saraab]

but i still belive that we'll be made to wait for the AH1s and other options wont be much expolited.

[Revival_786]

Are Apaches an option for Pakistan? Are Apaches much more expensive wrt Cobra's in general? :)

[saraab]

no not the apaches , i was taking about the chinese option

[mysterious]

people! any news on Cobras? did Pakistan get all 60 yet? and any Apaches coming Pak's way?

[WebMaster]

Pakistan is not looking for Apaches and US won't give Pakistan any apache. They are not an option. Cobras, haven't heard anything regarding those but they were set to come in '04 and early '05.

[saraab]

as it was discuussed earlier , they may already be here :smokingc:
they cant tell u everything u know ;)

[DRUB]

this is regarding embargoes or sanctions. The simple fact is that Pakistan has a history of being under some sort of sanctions. Yet, the sad thing is that it is still reliant on other major suppliers for its military needs. However, the emergence of the light ammunitions factory in addition to the development of some serious arms (Al-Khalid) is a step in the right direction.

Why not take the Gunships? Pakistan should know by now that any new hardware they are given is object to santions. THus, Pakistan must start to attempt to reverse engineer or gain as much tech from the hardware as possible.

just my thoughts :)

[mysterious]

Yes DRUB, Pakistan very well knows it has more cons in its way than pros. So as you have seen with the production of Al-Khalid tanks, the upgradation of T-59s to Al-Zarrar tanks, the past of the K-8 jet trainer being made in Pakistan and other important things being produced indigenously, Pakistan is moving in the right direction because it knows that it cannot trust anyone but China and a 'few' Islamic states. Hopefully the indigenous arms industry will become more and more sophisticated in a few years time with the probable help by the Chinese and funding by countries such as Saudi Arabia and then Pakistan would be able to make even more complex weapon systems at home. :pak

[saraab]

i dont remember where, but i read it somewhere a long time back, that Pakistan has resisted the involvment of the private sector in defence production.
I think with the private sector being made more acitve or rather allowed to play an sctive role , the industry could be made more effective.

[gf0012-aust]

i dont remember where, but i read it somewhere a long time back, that Pakistan has resisted the involvment of the private sector in defence production.
I think with the private sector being made more acitve or rather allowed to play an sctive role , the industry could be made more effective.

There are some clear benefit in allowing the private sector to be involved. There are certainly greater efficiencies to be realised.

[mysterious]

Wrong, private sector is involved quite a bit in the defence production. Infact at the last Ideas 2002, there were quite sophisticated things produced by private companies that were at display.

Admin Edit: Who are you addressing this response towards?