JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[kilo_4que]

What do you guys think. The following spec of the FC-1 was published many a time. Do you guys think that this spec has been deliberately published as it is, so that other nations mainly rivals to Pakistan and China feel no threat so would not interfere. Hence the genuine spec has not been published until the fighter goes into production or even test phase.

Well what are your thoughts, here is the spec published:

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5

I believe the fighter would be able to build up much more velocity than mach 1.6 (some reports say, it can produce speeds of upto mach 1.7 and 1.8)

[orange_hawk]

kilo
u may be right in some sense,

that is, it is logical for any defence establishment to hide the real info and the open source info just gives an idea.

for example,

US designed their LA class attack subs to detect the sound signature of the russian akula.

the sound signature was derived from months of stalking akula in icy artic waters.

But even then their data was proved wrong since tha russians had deliberatly made akula to have a higher noise level by inducing noise, and they had the option to turn off the induced noise, so in war time, LA class would have no clue, what happened to the noise. and would be attacked by akulas.

This info is from a documentary on Discovery channel.

so it is highly possible that the FC-1 may be more capable than that claimed in the open-source.

It will be a surprise for the enemy in the battlefield, if has failed to out-think his adversary.

[Bharat_R]

The FC-1 is at the same level of an upgraded Mig 21, the sources are www.fas.org. Mig-33 is basically an interceptor like the Mig 21, and it was rejected by the Chinese and is called the J-9. Therefore its inferior to the J-10 which is inferior to the LCA.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fc-1.htm

Also if you check LCA it says that it would equal the Eurofighter which is better then the Rafale or F-16. On Bharat-Rakshak it says that the Kaveri engine that is used for the LCA will have a second variant which would jhave TVC, and supercruise. Check: Bharat-rakshak.com

The Iranian fighter is another fighter that would be superior to the FC-1, which I heard would host Indian software which is as good as the Americans. Since India got the FBW from the US, when they collaborated on the LCA project and this is equal to the F-16XL. If the Iranian fighter carries Indian software it would be more superior then the FC-1. Check this out...

Azarakhsh

http://globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/azarakhsh.htm

[ullu]

Yes people, a project which started 35 years ago and still not complete is better than f16, f18, f22, and euro fighter. LCA is the top fighter at this time. :rolling

Since Fc1 involves Pakistan and china, its inferior and backward... and can never match the great LCA... Pakistan getting f22 would be rendered useless against it. :laugh :lolol :lolol

[kilo_4que]

Listen my friend. To post such a comment could lead harmful. U need to back ure post with some sufficient evidence as to why the LCA is better. I mean the FC-1 hasnt even been flight tested yet so how can u make such a predicament. Furthermore, my friend Bharat, yes fas does convey such a spec for the FC-1 but the whole point we are making is that the true spec of the fighter may be more deadly towards its enemy than what has been published. I mean only them who are making the fighter know what its capabilities are. Its like people guessing how many coins I have in ma pocket. Some would say 3, other 5, others may even say 1. But only I know what I have in my pocket.

Regarding the LCA. I think, once in full flow, and complete production, it would act as a predominate aggressor for the IAF alongside the mig-23s. The sukois would be more like the front line fighters with the backing of the LCA.

[Bharat_R]

Listen up Kilo, the FC-1 would be like the Mig-33, and it was designated J-9 by the Chinese which means its inferior to the J-10 plus the Mig 29 is superior to the Mig-33. You can do some research on the Mig-33, which is a complete failure by the Russians. This fighter won't be better then PAF F-16, I believe Pakistan should purchase couple squadrons of J-10s.

Here's a site on the LCA...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/lca.htm

Also note that LCA is a multirole fighter, it could be used for anything and note that it has a 3000kg payload with 7+1 hardpoint plus is the world smallest fighter in the world. A Rafale/Eurofighter/Su-30MKI have 12 hardpoints and they are far heavier (30,000 kg), the LCA has a max weight of 12500kg. The LCA is a deadly fighter, and could be armed with the A-11, Indian Astra or A-10, and it would reck havoc anywhere especially with its small Radar cross section.

-----
BTW the F-22 is a failure, if you check the links below...

F-22 Failure Site 1 (http://popularmechanics.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=38780497&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind%2Ecfg&host_id=1&page_id=7319&query=F22+Raptor&hiword=F22+RAPTOR+RAPTORS+ )

The F-22 is a failure but it accomplished many breakthroughs like supercruise, stealth, etc which would go on to the JSF. Also the F-22 cost 150 million, that's too expensive even for the US.

-----

The Eurofighter is also in the situation, one crashed already, and the Europeans are gonna purchase the JSF. The Rafales of France is pretty good fighter but they would need to make another one or an improvement so it could match to fifth gen fighters. It's costs rised to 60 million, which was WAY off from its planned price.

[kilo_4que]

First of all Bharat, you start your post of very direct towards me, which i dont mind to be honest.

To the point, why is it that you rely so much on fas. Use other sources too such as Scramble, Janes etc. FAS only provides good info regarding american fighters not many other international fighters.

Btw, where has it stated that the Mig-29 is more superior than the Mig-33.

If you are wanting to compare the LCA to Pakistans FC-1 then you cant really compare much as the LCA has been flight tested but the FC-1 hasnt. Also the FC-1 is supposed to be a multi role day night fighter. So there is hardly in comparison. Until it isnt flight tested, no one could say either is better than the other.

[wewe1]

can anyone post the electronics specs of FC-1, including radar, etc?

[Destroyer]

Here's basically everything I could find about the FC-1. I think it will be a great asset for the Pakistan Air Force, as we get closer and closer to June when the first flight is planned to take place. Inshallah


FC-1/Super-7 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

NAME:
Westernised/Manufacturer name: FC-1
Export name: Super-7

TYPE: Single-seat, single-engine multirole fighter aircraft derived from the Chengdu J-7 (F-7)

MANUFACTURER: China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC), Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company (PAIC)

PROGRAMME

In 1986 China signed a $550 million agreement with Grumman to modernize its J-7 fighter under the so-called "Super-7" upgrade, but this agreement was cancelled in early 1990, in the wake of the cooling of political relations with the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project. As a substitute for the original Super-7, China is developing the FC-1 (Fighter China-1) lightweight multipurpose fighter based on the design for the Super-7, with assistant from the Russians.

Meanwhile, a full-scale mockup of the FC-1 has been completed by CAC. According to the latest reports, the first prototype of FC-1 is currently under construction and expected to first fly in early 2003. The first FC-1 will be fitted with an Israeli Elta-2032 radar for fire-control test, and a Russian RD-93 turbofan engine. Chengdu has obtained two Elta-2032 systems and four RD-93 engines for initial evaluation and tests.

The FC-1/Super-7 is being developed with a total investment in excess of $150 million, including $75 million from Pakistan, with the rest investment from CATIC. The FC-1/Super-7 is mainly for export to replace the 120 F-7M/P fighters currently in service in the Pakistani Air Force, though it is possible that the Chinese Air Force will use this aircraft as well. Chengdu is co-operating with and Russia's Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) in the development of the FC-1. Israel and several European countries are being considered as suppliers for the plane's avionics.

According to the latest reports by the Chinese official media, the FC-7/Super-7 has entered initial production in September 2002. The first flight is expected to take place in 2003.

DESIGN FEATURES

Initially it was anticipated that the FC-1 would be a high-performance, low-cost fighter plane to replace outdated F-5s and MiG-21s in many third-world air forces. But with the participation of MASPG, the Russians are using the FC-1 as a continuation of the MiG-33 (R33) programme developed in the 1980s. Like the MiG-33, the FC-1 uses the RD-93 turbofans, though the FC-1 features air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33. With Russian technical assistance the redesigned FC-1 has improved climb out performance and steering capabilities along with a stronger fuselage.

However, the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment to the added tail edgings, providing aerial manoeuvrability that is claimed to match that of the U.S. F-16. These improvements in performance have affected the programme's costs, and if the final production order is fewer than 300 aircraft the unit price will rise from the original $10 million to $15 million.

AVIONICS: Few venders are competing for supplying avionics to the FC-1/Super-7. Apart from Israeli Elta-2032, Italian FIAR company also revealed its Grifo S-7 fire-control radar on Singapore Asian Aerospace 2002. The Grifo S-7 is specially designed for the FC-1/Super-7, with 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. The radar is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike, but without multi-targets tracing and attacking capabilities.

According to reports, the PLA Air Force variant of the FC-1 will certainly not be fitted with Elta-2032, therefore Russian Phazotron Kopyo radar and Italian Grifo are options available.

To achieve better aerodynamic performance, the FC-1/Super-7 is also equipped with a digital dual fly-by-wire (FBW).

ENGINE: One RD-93 turbofans, rated 49.4 kN dry or 81.4 kN with afterburning.

WEAPONS: Seven stores stations, one under the fuselage and six under the wing, up to 3,800 kg. Air-to-air missiles include: AIM-9P, PL-9, Magic-2 short-range AAMs; AIM-7E, Aspide.


SPECIFICATIONS

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5


Info courtesy of www.sinodefence.com

[NARC]

Excellent info destroyer,

I think the FC-1 although a 3rd/4th gen type fighter, would probably meet the needs of PAF. Its day/night multirole, also nuclear caperble (Deleted), can unleash an array of weaponry
but i still think pak needs a fleet of attacking frontline fighters that are at their best now, like J-10 or raphale.

Bharat_R

Therefore its inferior to the J-10 which is inferior to the LCA.


i think this dude has been brain washed, every spec ive seen shows the j-10 slapping the LCA. mite i add , stands for light combat aircraft, which means it will be limited to what it does.

As you can see that quote u made is totally baseless, its like saying Man u beat Liverpool, But Man city beat Man u, that means Man city is better than liverpool and man u..........wtf, check out some other sites instead of fas, which is generally biased against chinise tech.

[kilo_4que]

Hey, regardin wot NARC has posted.

Hoo knows if the FC-1, once flight tested is not superior to the LCA.

To be honest, I wont be surprised, specially now that the LCA has been flight tested, the pakistanis and chinese would aim to improve its capability surpassing that of the LCA

[mmalam]

Looks like .. Bharat_R never saw a picture of FC-1. That is the only reason i could think of why he is comparing FC-1 with Mig -21. :)

[Destroyer]

I can't believe he actually compared a Mig-21 and a FC-1. Bharat man the Mig-21 is from the 1950s and that airframe is just horrible, The F-7Pg's in PAF service have far more advanced avionics on board than the Indian Mig-21s.

[mmalam]

I can't believe he actually compared a Mig-21 and a FC-1. Bharat man the Mig-21 is from the 1950s and that airframe is just horrible, The F-7Pg's in PAF service have far more advanced avionics on board than the Indian Mig-21s.

Now watch as he comes back in denial , and talks about the UPG program of that damn flying coffin , when it will be able to do BVR.

[Hamza_K]

If this FC-1 doesn't come soon, I am going to go insane. I am sick and tired of hearing this name over and over again. This plane better be as good or better than F-16 or I don't see any point in spending such an amount of cash.

This is a JF_17 thread and if you sick of it, stop visiting it
PS

[kilo_4que]

Hamza, this project is not a flop, no matter how it compares to the F-16. Reason being, it is the first fighter project Pakistan have taken part in. This shall be the means of experience in a joint venture and also one could say Indigenous programmes.

This project is basically elevating Pakistans capability of being able to produce such arms, and I believe China is helping them to do so. Reason being that they would like Pakistan to be able to act as their main import/export partnerin arms, in the near future.

[Mukesh Patel]

Fc-1 is a history, its not gonna happen! Just like LCA!

[kilo_4que]

Funny, first time an indian has ever admitted that the LCA is a flop.

However, the FC-1 I think is not a flop, and think it shall serve the Pakistani air force well.

[Bharat_R]

J-10 superior to the LCA, man you don't know [nothing] about fighters. [NOTE FROM ADMIN: Please watch your lingo, don't get emotional! So what are you gonna say? J-10 is faster, so its Mach 2 and the F-22 is Mach 1.5, it means its better then it. HAHA, the Radar cross section of the LCA is far less, the FBW system of the LCA is superior because it's similiar to the F-16XL. Yes we got American support on this project, but they stopped it after the Nuclear bomb testing. BTW people the Mig-33 is inferior to the Mig-29, please don't embarras yourself, the Russians dumped the project and China wasn't interested in this project. BTW India's LCA is in the same class of the Eurofighter, or 75% capability of the F-22.

Don't believe me check Western sources such as FAS, and Global security.

Check these out..
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/lca.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lca.htm


ADA emphasizes that the LCA is the first Asian-designed fighter to have an ingeniously developed engine, unlike the F-2 (powered by a General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan) and the F-10 (which uses a Russian engine - the Saturn Lyulka AL-31F). Combining a new airframe and engine puts development of the LCA in the same class as the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, according to the agency. Add to that the requirement to develop a naval variant, and the scale of India's undertaking becomes more evident. The task is complicated by the country's lack of recent experience with combat aircraft development. India's last indigenously designed fighter, the HAL HF-24, first flew in 1967. India blames this lack of experience on the fact that the first LCA technology demonstrator, aircraft TD-1, has not flown since its roll-out in Nov. '95.


You think this is bull, no it isn't cause two Western sources (also note that that FAS is an independent org, while Global Security is supported by American gov. That's why they are negative about India, cause US doesn't like India. In the other hand they love Pakistan, but the people of Pakistan hates the US... It makes no sense, but Musharraf like US, since he's a dictator the people's say really doesn't matter. Back to my point, these two sites use Bharat-Rakshak as a REFERENCE. Therefore Bharat-Rakshak is CREDIBLE unlike Pakistani Defence or Sino-Defence (a site that is very neutral in my opinion).

This just proves that the LCA CANNOT be compared with the FC-1, or J-10 (which is just the Israel Lavi). Also note that Mig-23 will be scrapped.

[Destroyer]

Man you are a really biast person, you can give other people/ sources some credit too just because ur Indian doesn't mean that you can't say positive things about Pakistan or other militaries.

[WebMaster]

Don't get emotional guys.

[Bharat_R]

Stay on topic-AIRFORCE related not armed forces.

[Bharat_R]

Stay on topic-AIRFORCE related not armed forces.

[Bharat_R]

BTW Musharraf even said that Pakistan Air Force needs F-16s, and didn't even bring up the FC-1s. Also what is the BVR that will be on the FC-1, I am sure it won't be the Derby. Please provide sources.

[Destroyer]

Whoa B R man, I think that USA is completely pro-Indian since they are helping them indirectly through Israel and UK. Recently I heard that India is on the verge of purchasing 30 P-3C Orions. Pakistan is one of the countries that are basically on the "axis of evil". It's just that the Americans will never say it themselves.

[anwarma]

My special NOTE AND QUESTION to BHARAT_R:

Indian no question about it has superior technology in its grasp than Pakistan. India su-30mki compared to the F-16 are definitely super maneaverable and I personally have seen SU-30MK doing aerobatic maneavers in an Air Shows that are nothing compared to F-15E aerobatic maneavers.


Question is will the Indian pilots like the time 1965 and 71 are trained enough to handle those machines well enough.

In 1965 India had GNAT, MYSTERE fighter and all the good fighter jets (totaling 300)
compared to 78 F-86 sabres PAF had. a Lot of Pakistani pilots were given aircombat training on GNAT's in UK alongwith the Indian pilots.
But India's combat losses in the air were far greater than PAF in numbers. India lost approx 101 fighters comared to PAKistan's 23 fighter loses.

For india percentage loss was close to 33% and for Pakistan 31%. For a large Air Force like India the combat losses was huge.


1971 Indian air Force losses were still higher but PAF had more heavy losses in East Pakistan. BUT some Indian MiG-21 were mostly destroyed on the ground at Kalai Kunda by Mirage 3 and F-86 raids. An F-86 shot down a MiG 21, a MiG 21 with max speeds of Mach 2 and F-86 with max speed of 786 miles/hr. Once again it was F-86 pilots skill that helped him. Pilot Skillset was a factor in 1965 and 1971.

I am not saying that PAF pilots are gifted like Gen. Chuck Yeager. But the possiblity still exists that it is the man in the cockpit that matters the most than the machine.

I am sure Indian pilots will make use of their machine next time much better to refute my last statement for good.

One more, would YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO EVERYONE:

All the WEAPONS THAT INDIA HAS IN ITS INVENTORY, WHO ARE THEY GOING TO USE THEM AGAINST?.

INDIA and you yourself keep saying Pakistan will use their American supplied weapons against India but My question is all the 2200 strong air force that India has who are they going to use it against. India has no better sworn close enemy than Pakistan. PLease do not BS that it is China the danger.

China has no fool to occupy India which is already a large breeding ground for population explosion and AIDS. China is already big enough that it does not need any accesss to any other places plus China already has its problems with population.

I rest my case!

PEACE! :!:

[Red aRRow]

Bad news guys. My source in the PAF is informing me that there may be a further delay in the test flight which was supposed to be happening in June this year. :( :(

[WebMaster]

Bad news guys. My source in the PAF is informing me that there may be a further delay in the test flight which was supposed to be happening in June this year. :( :(

:mad :(

[ullu]

Bad news guys. My source in the PAF is informing me that there may be a further delay in the test flight which was supposed to be happening in June this year. :( :(

Some people say it is already flying just not being made public?

I don't know! :help

[Oqaab]

Super-7 test flight delayed till mid august.

maybe it will fly on 14th of august...(Its my guess)
:? :?

[Red aRRow]

The FC-1 prototype is ready and is being currently tested at Chengdu's factory. A taxi run test was done a couple of days ago. :smokingc: To check out the report and pics go to www.sinodefence.com click on Airforce and then click on Fighters. There you will find link for FC-1.

[wangsky]

in the years to come, china. as a country full of potential and vigor, with diligent people and fast development, certainly will have more resources to develop its own advanced technology. china will certainly have more advanced fighter planes, but as a peace-loving country, china will only use them for self-defence. today, you have seen a divine-vessel, tomorrow, you certainly will see more. but, remember, the chinese astronaut showed a u.n flag, china, for the cause of the world. china doesn't intimidate its neighbor, china will not lay the blame of bomb explosion at the door of another.

[ullu]

in the years to come, china. as a country full of potential and vigor, with diligent people and fast development, certainly will have more resources to develop its own advanced technology. china will certainly have more advanced fighter planes, but as a peace-loving country, china will only use them for self-defence. today, you have seen a divine-vessel, tomorrow, you certainly will see more. but, remember, the chinese astronaut showed a u.n flag, china, for the cause of the world. china doesn't intimidate its neighbor, china will not lay the blame of bomb explosion at the door of another.

Excellent point. Long live china. :china

[Oqaab]

What upgrades do u ppl like to see in Jf-17 aircraft????

Here is my opinion.

Engine,

The thrust to weight ratio of Jf-17 is 95:100 or 0.95. This is the reason why this aircraft will not be able to fly vertically upwards, and hence, it will not be able to drop a nuclear bomb. The thrust to weight ratio needs to be 1 or more in order to fly vertically upwards. There are rumours about France offering the M88 engines (Rafale engines) to Pakistan for Jf-17 but this engine gives 16,000 lbs of thrust only. The M88-3 engines will be a better option for this aircraft.

Speed,

Jf-17's speed is mach 1.6 which is quite less. The reasons could be lack of composite materials on its surface and powerful engine. The M88-3 engines which I mentioned above and composte materials installed may help the plane aquiring the speed of mach 1.8 or more.

Range,

Its range is unconfirmed. Some sources say that its maximum ferry range is 2,200 kms while other say its range is 3,000 kms. Lets assume its range as 3,000 kms. Its still less and it needs to be 3,200+ kms in order to attack deep into enemy's teritory and come back bacause PAF will also use this aircraft or strike missions. The idea of installing inflight refueling probe is even not too bad.

Hardpoints,

Number of hardpoints should be 9 or more in order to make it a long range aircraft and carry a verity of missiles and bombs. Also, this aircraft lacks FLIR pods so more hardpoints are needed to carry FLIR pod.

Gun,

Personally, I m not satisfied with its machine gun. Its carried the old Gsh 23 mm canon which was first carried by Russian Mig-19s. Its has a very low fire-rate(14 rounds/sec) compared to the fire-rate of guns of other fighters like Mig-29 (25 rounds/sec) and Gripen (30 rounds/sec). PAF should install the A-5s machine gun whose fire rate is 20 rounds/sec.

What do u think guys ???
Need sencible replies plzzz.
Thanx. :)

[GoldenEagle]

I hope wishes comes true in real world.

.95 T/W ratio is enough.Reason it is inferior to Su-30 in vertical climb is not T/W ratio, its because of the LEX featured wings, which create a lot of drag on the leading edge flaps. Obviously to undermine this flaw we would need additional thrust.

Range and hardpoints need to be increased.

Needs IFF and forward lookig phased array radar with an active range over AGP-77. No need for FLIR pod.

Dependable BVRAAM.



:smokingc:

What upgrades do u ppl like to see in Jf-17 aircraft????

Here is my opinion.

Engine,

The thrust to weight ratio of Jf-17 is 95:100 or 0.95. This is the reason why this aircraft will not be able to fly vertically upwards, and hence, it will not be able to drop a nuclear bomb. The thrust to weight ratio needs to be 1 or more in order to fly vertically upwards. There are rumours about France offering the M88 engines (Rafale engines) to Pakistan for Jf-17 but this engine gives 16,000 lbs of thrust only. The M88-3 engines will be a better option for this aircraft.

Speed,

Jf-17's speed is mach 1.6 which is quite less. The reasons could be lack of composite materials on its surface and powerful engine. The M88-3 engines which I mentioned above and composte materials installed may help the plane aquiring the speed of mach 1.8 or more.

Range,

Its range is unconfirmed. Some sources say that its maximum ferry range is 2,200 kms while other say its range is 3,000 kms. Lets assume its range as 3,000 kms. Its still less and it needs to be 3,200+ kms in order to attack deep into enemy's teritory and come back bacause PAF will also use this aircraft or strike missions. The idea of installing inflight refueling probe is even not too bad.

Hardpoints,

Number of hardpoints should be 9 or more in order to make it a long range aircraft and carry a verity of missiles and bombs. Also, this aircraft lacks FLIR pods so more hardpoints are needed to carry FLIR pod.

Gun,

Personally, I m not satisfied with its machine gun. Its carried the old Gsh 23 mm canon which was first carried by Russian Mig-19s. Its has a very low fire-rate(14 rounds/sec) compared to the fire-rate of guns of other fighters like Mig-29 (25 rounds/sec) and Gripen (30 rounds/sec). PAF should install the A-5s machine gun whose fire rate is 20 rounds/sec.

What do u think guys ???
Need sencible replies plzzz.
Thanx. :)

[ullu]

I think first step should be small and calculated. The makers of JF-17 should start from minimal upgrades and then gradually move on with upgrades to speed, hardpoints, etc. That way, they will learn alot and plus help them in the future developements which would be alot better. ;)

[Oqaab]

I think M53-P2 or M88-3 engines for Jf-17 would be better. Also, the range of its Radar is unconfirmed. We need detailed info on this aircraft.

[wangsky]

thanks a lot

[wangsky]

i hope our government together with our best friend-pakistan cooperate more and produce more advanced weapons to protect us. whatever china have, pakistan friends should have it too. for between friends all is common.
ullu, i respect your country, long live pakistan!
to tell you one thing: in china, everyone consider pakistan as china's best friend and india a belligerent country.

[ullu]

wang, thanks respect is purely mutual between china and Pakistan. Hope to see this friendship and respect grow in the future while both countries continue to work together for peaceful world and fight regional bullies and terrorists!

:pak :cheers :china

[AnonymousDoe]

What really matters is the people and their leader, not the technology. A good example would be the revolutionary war. America was poorly equiped and poorly trained. But George Washington still defeated the well trained, well equiped British soldiers.

[AnonymousDoe]

Super 7 sucks, the future of PLAAF is J-10. But for Pakistan and India, its the best they can afford due to their engineers and their economy. I would like to see a Super 7 shooting down a Eurofighter Typhoon.

[Pic Admin]

AnonymousDoe, easy on the tough talk. In one sentence you are claiming Super 7 sucks and in the other you say you would like to see super7 shooting down Eurofighter?

Also, please explain and give details on why do you think Super 7 is not a good plane? Why does it suck? What DO YOU know about it? Compare it to other fighters in its class. Build a strong argument for your claims.

PS: Super7 is now known as JF-17/FC-1.

Thank You.

[Oqaab]

Super 7 sucks, the future of PLAAF is J-10. But for Pakistan and India, its the best they can afford due to their engineers and their economy. I would like to see a Super 7 shooting down a Eurofighter Typhoon.

China has ordered 200 Fc-1s for PLAAF. Also, at the time when J-10 is not available in the market, China will try to export Fc-1s as much as possible.

Another thing, to shoot a Eurofighter with JF-17, it is necessary that ur JF-17 should have stealth technology, long range radar and BVR missiles like R-27 or AIM-54 Phoenix.

[AnonymousDoe]

<China has ordered 200 Fc-1s for PLAAF. Also, at the time when J-10 is not available in the market, China will try to export Fc-1s as much as possible.>

Just so you know, 10 units of J-10s have already been delivered to the PLAAF

[Londo Molari]

Ignore www.fas.org... due to ZERO funding, they havent updated in 3 years... back then there wasnt even pictures of what it looks like today.


As for where the FC-1 stands, I'd say its as capable as an F-16A with MLU. It will definitely help the Pakistani Air Force, and will probably be used by the Chinese to phase out their old F-6s and F-7s.

[Oqaab]

Just so you know, 10 units of J-10s have already been delivered to the PLAAF

From the word "market" I meant EXPORT MARKET.

[AnonymousDoe]

Oqaab,
Maybe your should make your statements more clear, before you publish it.

[Oqaab]

Oqaab,
Maybe your should make your statements more clear, before you publish it.

Yes I think I should, coz ppl like u dont even use their heads.

[umair]

Oqaab,
Maybe your should make your statements more clear, before you publish it.

Yes I think I should, coz ppl like u dont even use their heads.

Nice retort Oqaab! :D

[corsair7772]

One thing abt the LCA:
If its such a good aircraft y a decade 2 develope it?
If such a good aircraft y the same speed, weapons stores and all that?
If such a good aircraft need all that almunium and titanium when and still the same speed and G limit as the FC-1 which uses minimum?
If such a cool aircraft y still but SU-30s and Mirages when it has 75% of the capabilities the F-22 has?
IF SUCH A GOOD AIRCRAFT Y BUY ALL THOSE AIRCRAFT U CLAIM ITS IN THE SAME CLASS IN???
BTW if ur gonna tell me 2 visit FAS which ive been usin 4 2 years im gonna teach u elementary:
Go read Janes all the worlds aircraft.

[corsair7772]

<China has ordered 200 Fc-1s for PLAAF. Also, at the time when J-10 is not available in the market, China will try to export Fc-1s as much as possible.>

Just so you know, 10 units of J-10s have already been delivered to the PLAAF

In case u never heard the word: Pre-Production Batch :roll

[corsair7772]

The guns ok, it mite be old but its excellent and has a great punch if not firing rate. All we need is more hardpoints.

[Oqaab]

The guns ok, it mite be old but its excellent and has a great punch if not firing rate. All we need is more hardpoints.

Oh yaar, the JF-17 is more capable then our F-16s. Do u really think it should carry mig-19 or mig-21 guns. Fire Rate is a very important factor. One of the PAF F-16s shot down a russian aircraft by its Vulcan cannon, and vulcan has a fire rate of 100 rounds/sec.

[Londo Molari]

I don't think they will be upgrading the engines of the JF-17.

The canon isn't that important, and it can easily be replaced.

The upgrades I imagine will occur in the future are:

- conformal fuel tanks, for extended range
- more hardpoints, or hardpoint dividers
- upgrades to avionics, radar and cockpit
- new electronic warfair suite

[corsair7772]

If were talkin abt increasing hard points...WHERE???

[umair]

I don't think they will be upgrading the engines of the JF-17.


Buddy! the powerplant has to be replaced cause of technical & political implications.Technical reasons have been mentioned above.Political being it's a Russian engine & India can at any time pressurise Ivan into stopping the supply.In my opinion the Snecma M53 P2 (used in mirage 2000) would be the best substitute.

[yutong chen]

The best fighter is the Eurofighter Typhoon, even better than the F-22 Raptor and Su-37. So, there is no need to argue over if FC-1 sucks or not.

[Londo Molari]

Atleast 50 units of J-10s have been delivered to PLAAF.

China has NOT YET ordered any FC-1s, although there is a strong possibility.

The Eurofighter is better than the SU-37, but the F-22 is the BEST fighter aircraft in the world today.

[Londo Molari]

Its not that easy to just find another engine... it has to fit into the aircraft's airframe, as well as be compatible with the aircraft's interfaces.

I think the way the JF-17 is designed, only Chinese and Russian engines would work. And there is NO POLITICAL problem with the current Russian engine. TRUST me. The Chinese knew long ago that India would try to block the export of JF-17s with RD-33 to Pakistan.

The Chinese were well aware with this, and TOLD the Russians that the RD-33 WILL go to Pakistan, or the Chinese simply won't buy the engines from Russia. Russia, in desperate need of money agreed. The RD-33 is gonna be used, whether India likes it or not. China KNOWS this. There is a strong chance that the JF-17 will be used ONLY by the PAF in the world, and without an engine, all the money invested in the project by China would be lost. So why would they invest so much time and money into a project that would never be used? They have it covered.

And in case of some wierd reason the Russian engine fails, the Chinese HAVE reverse engineered it, and have their own versino for use.

The thrust to weight ratio of 0.95 to 1 isnt that impressive, but then again the Tornado, F-18 and even Gripen don't have a 1:1 ratio. So its not that bad.

[suleman]

few days back i meet a senior PAF official,he is at Kamra and is in Admin of main upgrade factory of Paf.He told that we made jf17 in china to aquire the basic technology otherwise china's quality is not good in fighters at all.They dont wana buy J-10 etc unless they have no other option.He said that future main fighter for PAF is JF-17.PAF has plans to make these aircraft in china for two reasons 1)Low cost 2)To aquire basic technology.
Now PAF is planning to make this fighter at low cost and then increase its quality and upgrade them by adding westren technologies too and by improveing each and every thing.So dont worry this JF-17 is just the rough copy PAF will give it some finishing and quality.They have funds to do it too.

[Oqaab]

One thing abt the LCA:
If its such a good aircraft y a decade 2 develope it?
If such a good aircraft y the same speed, weapons stores and all that?
If such a good aircraft need all that almunium and titanium when and still the same speed and G limit as the FC-1 which uses minimum?
If such a cool aircraft y still but SU-30s and Mirages when it has 75% of the capabilities the F-22 has?
IF SUCH A GOOD AIRCRAFT Y BUY ALL THOSE AIRCRAFT U CLAIM ITS IN THE SAME CLASS IN???
BTW if ur gonna tell me 2 visit FAS which ive been usin 4 2 years im gonna teach u elementary:
Go read Janes all the worlds aircraft.

U can answer all of these questions urself if u use common sence.

Anyways here are the answers (but I m not Indian).

1. The project of Rafale took 32 years. Also JF-17's project was started in 1990 and the test flight took place in 2003. So Jf-17s project took 13 years to complete.

2. Regarding speed and store stations, it is just replacing Mig-21s and Mig-23s. So it is a good REPLACEMENT. :D

3. LCA uses F-404 engine which generates 18,000 lbs of thrust but the composite materials over its surface made its speed more then JF-17.

4. Who said that LCA has 75% capabilities of F-22 ??? Su-30MKI might be that much capable but not the LCA.

5. They claim that LCA is as capable as their Mirage 2000H and they are purchasing Mirage 2000-5 which is more superior.

:)

[corsair7772]

I still dont get the part abt the last 2:

The "indians" claim its got 75% of the stuff F-22 has.

The Indians say that the LCA is in the same class as Euro Fighter and Rafale so y buy the Mirages and Su-30s which r in the same class?

This all shows that the LCA is made of Propoganda and nuthin much.

[Londo Molari]

Pakistan should get as much Chinese technology as it can... don't they know most western countries that are under U.S. pressure would deny Pakistan ANY technology that would help them? So getting western upgrades is gonna be as hard as getting F-16s. We should just forget about those selfish sources (Except France), and concentrate on what we can depened on.

[yutong chen]

Eurofighter Typhoon have the most advanced radar and it have voice activated command. Its more manuverable. F-22 only have a large payload. F-22 is too expensive to put into large quatities.

[umair]

Er! Oqaab where'd u get the info that the Rafale took 32 years to develop.
Accordin to the Encycloppedia Of Modern Warplanes & Jane's All The World's Aircraft circa 2000 , the Rafale project was initiated by Dassault in early 1983.Work on the Rafale Tech demonstrater started in March 1984 & it was rolled out on 14 December 1985.The Rafale A( first prototype) was flown on4 July 1986 with the final twin seat(B) ,naval variant & single seat (A)prototypes flying in Feburary 1993(B), December 1991(C) & May 1991(A).
P.S interesting info the first Rafale prototypes were powered by two G.E F404-400 afterburning turbofans. ;)

[Oqaab]

I still dont get the part abt the last 2:

The "indians" claim its got 75% of the stuff F-22 has.

The Indians say that the LCA is in the same class as Euro Fighter and Rafale so y buy the Mirages and Su-30s which r in the same class?


Well, they are claiming this because of the MCA project.

And yes, I have also heard this from indians on other forums that manuverbility of LCA matches Rafale, Eurofighter and J-10, but, unfortunatly they dont know J-10, Rafale and Eurofighter uses movable canards for manuverability. :D

[Timmy]

Ive been reading this conversation for some time and i would just like to say that we chinese are proud of our friendship with Pakistan. The fact of the matter is that FC-1 is a reality, you cheap indians just cannot digest the fact that FC-1 took to the skies with flying colours. If you guys still have any doubts then why dont you take a look at the video clip of it. Go to google and type JF-17 video clip. I just saw it my self and was greatly impressed by its performance, despite being a first test flight. Regarding your LCA,i dont know what the hell you all are talking about, LCA received assistance from US and Israel. (LCA has an American Engine Mind You). Despite all that, the project is in dooldrums. Only an illiterate person can say that FC-1 is the same as Mig-21 or superior to LCA!!!

[Timmy]

LCA 75% capable as F-22,thats a laugh. I totally agree with Oqaab that why buy Mirage-2000's and SU-30s. The way the Arjun tank project has failed after 20 long years, the LCA is destined to fail too.

[Timmy]

*********************** Time for me to go. Long live Pak China Friendship!!!

[Red aRRow]

Welcome to the board!!

[Timmy]

hello shamayel man

[Timmy]

how ru,so have you been involved actively in the JF-17 discussions? have you seen the JF-17 test flight!

[Red aRRow]

Hello to you too. By the way any news about the FC-1 / JF-17???? like what's the latest and stuff.

[Timmy]

well its gona have another test flight in another few months. let me put it this way, that Pakistan has made a car uptil the standard of Honda/Corolla (F-16A/F-18A early models) but not the BMV or Mercaedez (F-15/Eurofighter/...etc)

[Timmy]

here's the direct link of it where u can see the JF-17 video.

http://www.defencetalk.com/videos/DefenceVideoMedia.htm

[The Watcher]

Looks like timmy is new on here. Timmy, we do not post links to forums that support extremism and filth of secularism. Please edit your replies or a moderator will. ;)

[Timmy]

my dear friend, ive been here for a while, regarding ur extremism and secularism, i just gave a response from the previous 3 pages,if u hav eyes plz read the comments from those and then talk about filth and extremism.

[Pic Admin]

Timmy, welcome to DefenceTalk.com. Please don't take watcher's comment harshly. What he meant was that the links you posted, that website's forum has extreme love for extremism and secularism and we do not support any type of extremism on this website.

If you want to download a video of the flights and other stuff, please email or send webmaster a PM and he will provide you with a link. We had to take down the video page because of bandwidth issues which is being addressed as I write this reply.

If you have another site which you may want to use to show us the video, that will be great.

Thanks for understanding. :)

[Timmy]

Hello there, "that website's forum has extreme love for extremism and secularism and we do not support any type of extremism on this website". was it something else i said,i understood what he meant but what extremism are my two friends referring to,im not supporting extremismor or rubbish that Watcher is supporting,all i said was that i'd been reading the last three pages which have been filled with nonense against PAK, just gave a polite and firm reply to those.

[Pic Admin]

Timmy, you didn't say anything to anyone. We are refering to the website address you posted. No biggie. :)

[Timmy]

oh i c,thankx 4 letin me know.gotta check some pictures from the galleries section!!!

[Red aRRow]

Welcome to the forum Timmy. Watcher please don't take offence since Timmy obviously misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Timmy we used to have the JF-17 video in our video collection on this website but WEBS (the webmaster) decided to take down the video section because of bandwidth issues.

The links you gave belong to PDF website. The problem is that PDF is censoring DefenceTalk.com for some unknown reasons. So as a result DefenceTalk.com team has decided to censor PDF. The Watcher is a senior member on this website and what he wanted to say was that you should not post links to PDF here. That was all.

*********************************************

Ok so now that is cleared up.....I think all of us have seen the JF-17 video. but there have been no new development on it since the test flight. So do you know anything about the status of the second and third prototypes which are being manufactured now Timmy????
xie xie. ;)

[Pic Admin]

Please do, and rest of you back to the TOPIC!

[Timmy]

thanks shamayel man for lettin me know,i wasent at all aware that Pakistani defence has blocked pdf and vicce versa,oh yeah regardin the prototype another flight is gona take place soon in a couple of months.

[Timmy]

thats what i read one of the keypublishing magazines.

[Timmy]

regardin further developments of it after the first test flight, my friend everyday developments are taking place. i read the Air Marshall's interview when he was in London, he said that by 2006 its gona be fully ready and by no doubt the balance will change in our favour. these were his comments here!!!

[Su_37]

Oh man , Let me take laughf on ullu :alian

well well ,, First you all listen ,

1) Chinese dont know how to make Planes , they just do Resverse Engg. on each and everything they buyed from Russia. So FC-1/ Super 7 is also one of that a russian old vitange plane reverse engg and old wine in new bottle. Moreover till now no Chinese Machine had been met sucess in the field of reliability. I don;t think any county will buy this plane apart from PAK

2) Indian LCA is World lightest and smallest plane , I will like to laughf on ullu who dont have nay knoledge about plane development. Smallest and Lightest made till now is LCA , and delaying is not becasue that indian scientiest can't made plane but only becasue of they are making world best stealth plane , which can even pass under the noise of Pakistan defence system.

3) delaying in LCA is only becasue of indian scientic are learning a lot of from it. Which will be implemented in the MCA ( Medium Combat Aircraft) which is going to be started scoon. Slealth is also the majoy factor of its delay, Scientiest is working over night to improve its slealth with russian and Isreali's. India want that plane to be perfect in everything.

4) India want to use LCA as a escote of SU30, Mirage, and jagur, airdefence and frontline plane , It will act as a Air defence fighter andwill be put on forntline air base while big one will behind. LCa can easily take off from small strip , and easly be hide and can take down any warplane and also hard to target by any missile or home in by any fighter in the dogfight dur to its small size makes it difficult to see. It will use as the first line of defence and attack in the future.

5) LCA is all weather milti role fighter with state of ART jammer and anti jamming rader on board which makes it a formidable figter in the world.

6) I heard mmalam saying that " The F-7Pg's in PAF service have far more advanced avionics on board than the Indian Mig-21s."

To my friend mmalam , having it one thing and developing fighting skills is another. I will like to remind you that Pakistan F-104 Starfighter was far superior then indian Planes in the war but then also indian planes beaten them in the dog fight and not to forget to mention about SABRES also which was outbeten by indian infirior planes.

[ullu]

OH great... another indian who is FULL of himself.

Look pal, This topic is about Super7/fc-1/jf-17 not LCA. So don't prase it here.

[Red aRRow]

Timmy I have one request for you. Can you please write everything in one post instead of spreading everything in 4 or 5 posts. Thanks.

Ahaa...well we all look forward to the next test flight.

As for our Pakistani and Indian members...please stop bringing other planes into this thread. The thread is for the FC-1 alone...keep it that way. Thank You.

[umair]

OH great... another indian who is FULL of himself.

Look pal, This topic is about Super7/fc-1/jf-17 not LCA. So don't prase it here.

Ditto! oh and by the way if Su -(-37) has any knowledge about fighters of the 50s & 60s he ought to know that the Hunter had better performance than the F86.Also the kill ratio in both wars was in favour of PAF & this has been documented & confirmed by neutral observers.
To end with a quote from an Indian pilot upon encountering an F104:
PAJHOO! OAAYE ! 104 EEEE! ( translation RUN! IT'S A 104!)
:nutkick :finger

[corsair7772]

OH great... another indian who is FULL of himself.

Look pal, This topic is about Super7/fc-1/jf-17 not LCA. So don't prase it here.

Ditto! oh and by the way if Su -(-37) has any knowledge about fighters of the 50s & 60s he ought to know that the Hunter had better performance than the F86.Also the kill ratio in both wars was in favour of PAF & this has been documented & confirmed by neutral observers.
To end with a quote from an Indian pilot upon encountering an F104:
PAJHOO! OAAYE ! 104 EEEE! ( translation RUN! IT'S A 104!)
:nutkick :finger

LOL. I thought the quote was "Achtung! Star fighter!!" :)

[Timmy]

indians never learn do they, in 1965 pak shot the IAF like ducks, in 71, let me sum up the war in the words of General Chuck Yeager (the first man to cross the sound barrier, if any any indian dosent know!) " the PAF whipped their (indian) asses in the skies, but on the ground it was the other way round". This is written in his biography. no matter how much indians might boast of their air force, it is the man in the cockpit which matters the most!!!

besides i dont wanna waste my time on such stupid topics, any1 has any news about JF-17!!!

[Su_37]

1971 WAR Extracts

Pakistani Air Force F-104 Starfighters

The Starfighter was touted as the most modern and dangerous aircraft in the PAF's inventory. Just before the War, Pakistan beefed up its Starfighter fleet with the help of some friendly countries. But the aircraft proved utterly incapable of standing up to the IAF.

At least 8 of these aircraft were shot down by IAF pilots.

The Pakistanis, according to the IISS (International Institute of Strategic Studies) Military Balance 1971, had 19 squadrons including two B-57B light bomber and one recce squadron. According to our studies, the Pakistanis had about 14 effective combat squadrons in the West excluding the B-57B bombers and recce aircraft. However, PAF squadrons tended to have more aircraft per squadron than the IAF. This was further bolstered by the acquisition of an unspecified number of F-86 Sabres, Mirage IIIs, Starfighters (from Jordan) and about 15 Chinese F-6s in the months prior to the war. These aircraft were not accounted for the IISS in its 1971 Military balance or in any other report. Also, the serviceability of PAF Sabres was much higher - meaning more aircraft could be fielded. The Indians had 16 aircraft per combat squadron but the effective availability during the war was 12 per squadron. Bomber and transporter squadron had 10 aircraft each of which about 6 to 8 were serviceable at any given time. Many PAF squadrons, in contrast, had as many as 25 aircraft. Thus, while the PAf was outnumbered in the West, at no point was it ever fighting against overwhelming odds.

More important, the PAF on the whole was far better equipped to fight a modern air war than the IAF. The Pakistanis, for instance, had very effective air-to-air missiles which the Indians lacked. American made Sidewinder missiles were fitted on Chinese-made F-6 aircraft, on Sabres and on Starfighters. These were accurate missiles and accounted for at least three kills by PAF fighters in air-to-air combat. The Indians had only their guns and cannons to rely on. The Soviet-made MiG-21 was the only aircraft in the IAF's inventory fitted with missiles. But the missiles - the infamous K-13 - were a poor copy of the American Sidewinders and were so useless that they were scrapped after the war.

The other major advantage, and a critical one, the Pakistanis had was their radar and communication system built by the Americans. In most parts, particularly Punjab, the PAF had a real time radar surveillance system, the ability to track low flying aircraft coming over Pakistan and the means to guide their aircraft right to intruding enemy aircraft. India had nothing in comparison. Instead of low level radar, the IAF had to rely on men posted near the borders. Every time a suspected enemy aircraft flew over, the observation post had to call in on their high frequency radio sets to warn the sector controllers. Even the medium and high level radar cover available to the IAF was poor with the result that each forward base had to earmark between one to two combat squadrons just for air defence. It was a primitive and wasteful system - and the Pakistanis knew it. The technologically inferior but numerically superior Indian Air Force could be tackled quite easily by a smaller but more modern force. This is what prompted the PAF to launch pre-emptive strikes against forward Indian air bases on 3 December 1971.

By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required. The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations.

Once it was known that the Indian Army was knocking at the gates of Dhaka, the PAF in the West virtually gave up flying. During the last few days of the war, the IAF brass ordered attacks on PAF airfields with the sole purpose of drawing out their aircraft. But that rarely succeeded as the PAF aircraft for the most part remained secured inside their pens, refusing to come out and fight. The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name.

A better analysis of effectiveness of the two air forces is provided by the losses per sortie figure. The IAF flew at least double the number of combat sorties per day than the PAF, thereby exposing itself to ground fire and enemy interdiction. Despite this, the IAF's attrition rate of 0.86 per 100 sorties during the 1971 War compares favourably with the Israeli rate of 1.1 in the Yom Kippur War. The PAF's overall attrition rate works out to 2.47 (including transporters and recce aircraft lost on the ground). If aircraft destroyed on the ground are not taken into account, the rate works out to 1.12, which is still very high given that PAF aircraft never really stood back to fight


Combat Aircraft Losses
Description Pakistan India
Air to Air 19 19
Ground Fire 15 35
On Ground 29 2
Total 63 56

[Pic Admin]

Su37, please provide source of your information.

Thank You.

[Su_37]

Sorry,

My sources are mostly come from classified documents and experts from Indian as well as other military and their view and their practice experience on the weapon system.

[WebMaster]

It would help if you post your sources. Just makes the discussions smooth when you can say hey this is my source. :)

[Su_37]

Well for this particular artical , my source is International Institute of Strategic Studies report which has full description of indo pak air war. report is too big to fit in , so wrote some lines.

That report contains hour by hour full details of airwar and it also include pic taken by indian planes while shooting down pakistan planes or boming pakistan planes , clearlying showing how bullets hitting 107 it going down. also taken the view of pakistan airmens for its authenticityand also taken their account and reached to the following conclusion. This report is prepaired by nutural observers.

[Red aRRow]

Please do not hijack the thread. The topic is FC-1 / JF-17 ......NOT air combat losses.
:o

[umair]

few days back i meet a senior PAF official,he is at Kamra and is in Admin of main upgrade factory of Paf.He told that we made jf17 in china to aquire the basic technology otherwise china's quality is not good in fighters at all.They dont wana buy J-10 etc unless they have no other option.He said that future main fighter for PAF is JF-17.PAF has plans to make these aircraft in china for two reasons 1)Low cost 2)To aquire basic technology.
Now PAF is planning to make this fighter at low cost and then increase its quality and upgrade them by adding westren technologies too and by improveing each and every thing.So dont worry this JF-17 is just the rough copy PAF will give it some finishing and quality.They have funds to do it too.

China's fighter quality is not good! :lolol :lolol
My uncle has been flying these things,I know many of his colleagues & none of them have had any complaints regarding Chinese fighters (except for a few itsy bitsy issues with the A5). They regard them as just fine.I have also come to know that the F7PG even gives the Falcons a tough time during exercises. :smokingc: