JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[SABRE]

A possible future version of the JF17 in time to come may look something like this.

Long range multiple tracking and engagement radar.
Composites and Radar absorbant materials (currently being tested by pakistan).
Internal fuel tanks (as on the F16)
Newer software computer systems, FBW, Touch screen LCD,s.
OBOGs.
Helmet mounted display (currently PAF is looking at the ukrainan and chinese ones being developed).
BVR will be a definate, ukranian missiles, SD10 and darter series.

Hmmm. Possible future versions r very much possible. Anyways most of the equipment u r placing on JF-17 have already been discussed by the Pakistan-China makers & some have already been put on. PAF will equip its JF-17 with Long Range Multiple tracking & engagement radar regardless of future or current version. In air refueling facility has already been discussed & approved, so may be JF-17 will do that with internal fuel tanks. Softwares I dont know, LCD touch screen would be cool. Cant say about Helmet mounted display. BVR is most probably going to be Chinese. Pakistan China are already makin one so I think only that would be put on board.

Since u r ve mentioned Ukrain, I have question for all those who can answer. Whats going on between PAF & Ukrain? I mean ukrain is offering PAF Su-27s. And it has opened doors t Pakistan for various other airforce equipments. I mean is there a secret deal involved? Des Pakistan has some thing that Ukrain wants badly?

[muslim282]

l suppose their is alot of truth in the facts even though both the chinese and pakistan have been tight lipped.
The FC1 is more suited to pakistans needs than the PLAAF.
l believe that the entire manufacturing of the FC1 will eventually take place in pakistan. As china will and can then concentrate on other projects. Even the RD93 will be fully produced in pakistan as Russia cannot stop this, due to the fact that the chinese can quiet easily reverse engineer this engine as was reported by AFM and then give it a new name and let the pakistanis manufacture it. So the russians simply had to accept it.
China had also offered to build an F7 assembly line in pakistan (janes world of military planes) but this was refused by pakistan. This was mainly due to the fact that the FC1 project was more important and knowing that this was also going to be built in pakistan, hence the F7 assembly line was refused.
The technology transfer issue is mainly regarding the avionics and weapons packages. But current negotiations with South Africa, Sweden, Italy, France and the Ukraine have been quiet fruitfull.
The ltalian radars will be assembled in pakistan and will lead to the licensed manufacture of them.
The H4 BVR has already been tested ( probably a copy of the Darter series)
and is now claimed as an indegenous missile, indicating technology transfer.
Within the next 5-10 years the FC1/ JF17 will be an entirely pakistani project giving pakistan a gigantic leap in military aviation. We will see more capable and advanced versions of the JF17, major R&D also.
The J10 will also be a part of the PAF in the future. (nobody can doubt that)
l also think that PAF will also be making a major purchase of at least one western fighter to supplement the JF17 and other planes. This l believe will be the Mirage2000 (if india don,t purchase it in large numbers) or the Gripen (which l pefer), both will come with an overall package including further help in bettering and improving certain aspects of the JF17 (mainly avionics).
Swedish companies are already looking at getting a slice of the JF17 project as sweden is now easing up on its sales of military equipment to pakistan.
(AWACS sale almost complete).
l believe that the JF17 will far exceed the expectations of most people and will definatley surprise a few over the next 5 years. l think the pakistanis are staying tight lipped for a reason and working extremely hard.
On the other hand indian ministers are calling the LCA a waste of time, money and resources.
With the limited budget the pakistanis worked on, they have far out done the indians and achieved results.

[SABRE]

I dont know if Swedish would help in JF-17 project. It would rather prefer to sell Gripens to Pakistan, so they could earn more money, than giving Pakistan just few parts to help it make its own jet, which might some day end up like Gripens. Just like France. France wants Pakistan to buy Mirage2000-5,9 or Rafales rather than giving Pakistan its equipment to put it on JF-17.

anyways if France & Sweden cooporate than JF-17 will be one hack of a Jet.

[Londo Molari]

Sweden is really uptight about a country essentially run by a dictator... so helping our military in ANY way would imply that they support dictatorship... so no Gripens until then, and also no help with JF-17. But we don't really need their help. French Avionics are superior to Swedish, and the French are more willing to help. Italians are also willing.

[ashoaib]

French are not willing at all to help in JF-17 because if they help, it will reduce Pakistan's willingness to buy mirages and they dont want to do that. Thats why they didnt give the equipment which Pakistan tried to get for JF-17. I think the only country in the west which can help in JF-17 project is Italy. Currently they are providing the radar technology.
I agree with you Lando; Swedish have some rules and they follow them they will never do anything which look likes the support of dictatorship but on the other hand they sold AWACS to Pakistan recently after our dictator visited Sweden this mean they dont take him as dictator.
This world is very difficult for Pakistan no modern country like to sell high tech equipment to us, so we have to adopt a long term plan for building our own high tech equipment for JF-17.

[ashoaib]

Well I read that some JF-17s will be fitted with J-10 radars its a good news. J-10s are good. Why the swedish radars are not going to be fitted?

[The Watcher]

heard china is having trouble getting russia to supply engines for JF-17 which would delay induction of the fighter but this news is saying its happening in '06?

Pak to induct Chinese JF-17 fighters in ‘06

Pakistan's Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat has said that the Air Force will begin induction of JF-17 (Thunder) fighter aircraft next year.

Pakistan and China have jointly manufactured JF-17 (Thunder), also known as the "next generation aircraft". The aircraft had its maiden flight early this year and the officials believe the aircraft will help PAF overcome shortage of combat aircraft.

The PAF has inducted Chinese origin F-7 PG aircraft, additional Mirages, CASAs CN-235 aircraft and MI-171 helicopters to its inventory, he added.

India has been opposing delivery of the jets to Pakistan, which says that proposed induction of the F-16s is part of modest acquisition programme.

The US administration had recently approved three weapon deals worth 1.2 billion dollars for Pakistan, which includes eight P-3C surveillance aircraft for Pakistan Navy.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1208464,0005.htm
only seen indian media interested in this news so i advise caution. :)

[ajay_ijn]

heard china is having trouble getting russia to supply engines for JF-17 which would delay induction of the fighter but this news is saying its happening in '06?
Apparently Russia Rejected Supplying RD-93 engines for JF-17 Saying that "We will not give engines if pakistan is shown as end-user"

But Chinese might surely have someother solution.But till now no news about any other engine fitted to JF-17.

[adsH]

Worst Comes they have Other options, either Go for the French Engines or Trysome of the US engines all those Options are realistic, would end up making the Jet abit Pricey.

[mysterious]

Or, simply go for a variant of the J-10 engine with a lesser thrust and some minor changes. I think that sounds more realistic.

[highsea]

A fighter not is not like a truck that has an engine compartment, and any old engine will do. You can't just "switch engines". A light fighter is designed entirely around the engine/airframe combination. The airframe is basically a just a tube that houses the engine, but it has to be perfect. The RD-33/93/133 family is the only viable engine series for the AC.

Any engine change would mean a complete re-engineering of the airframe. Basically starting from scratch. Everything from weights and balances, structural hard points, maintenance panels, power systems, hydraulics, electrical system, fuel lines and airflow requirements, etc. would change. China really doesn't have the capability to re-design the AC, and it's too late in the game to even consider it. It would mean going all the way back to the mock-up and wind tunnel stage.

China has engines that are either smaller or larger than the JF-17 needs. The only option is to reverse engineer the RD93, come to terms with Russia, or ignore the end-user certificate (something which China has done before).

[adsH]

A fighter not is not like a truck that has an engine compartment, and any old engine will do. You can't just "switch engines". A light fighter is designed entirely around the engine/airframe combination. The airframe is basically a just a tube that houses the engine, but it has to be perfect. The RD-33/93/133 family is the only viable engine series for the AC.

Any engine change would mean a complete re-engineering of the airframe. Basically starting from scratch. Everything from weights and balances, structural hard points, maintenance panels, power systems, hydraulics, electrical system, fuel lines and airflow requirements, etc. would change. China really doesn't have the capability to re-design the AC, and it's too late in the game to even consider it. It would mean going all the way back to the mock-up and wind tunnel stage.

China has engines that are either smaller or larger than the JF-17 needs. The only option is to reverse engineer the RD93, come to terms with Russia, or ignore the end-user certificate (something which China has done before).

That would completely be based on the assumption that the Pakistanis were absolutely oblivious to the fact that the Indian would prevent deliveries of the engines, and they made no other provisions. they Must have a back up, they must of made provisions before Latching onto the program and investing Time and money on the Project. the Americans were involoved in the project Many years back. the amount of US design that still remains in the AC, well my guess is as good as yours. but i suspect that a certain amount of that R&D is still in the AC. AC manufacturer such as Saab have contingency Plans in Place, just to make sure that they Can provide customers with finished products. the Airframe of the JF-17 appears to be large enough to House most major brand engines (while considering there is a copy of RD-93 in China). the Minor Adjustments like air and fuel Inlets and other sort of electrical Mods have to be Carried out that may or may not have been done already.

[highsea]

adsH, I am not making any assumptions on the politics of the situation between Pakistan and India. As far as I'm concerned, it's irrelevent to the feasability of an alternative (Chinese) engine for the JF-17.

I strongly doubt that any of the R&D from Grumman is part of the FC-1 today, nor do I see how it relates to the topic. It's pretty widely acknowledged that the FC-1 is derived from the "Product 33" from Mig, and the Super-7 was abandoned. The "Product 33" design work was largely finished when Mig offered the design to China, which is why the project was able to stay on track timewise.

I do not know if Saab has done the work to put a different engine in the Gripen or not. I suspect not. The US has done this with the F-16's from Block 30/32 onward. All of these aircraft have the "common engine bay" that will accomodate the GE F110 or the PW F100. I can assure you that a major redesign was involved, and the F110 engine went through a complete redesign also, to make it compatible to the F-16.

The engines have to be dimensionally the same, and all the frame locations, etc. have to match up in each section. The AC have to be ballasted differently to account for the weight differences. This also has to be accounted for in the airframe design. It is not a trivial thing, and it took the combined resources of PW, GE, and LM a couple years to accomplish.

The common engine bay program required strengthening of the airframe in many areas to handle the increase in thrust of the F110. Also, the inlet had to be enlarged for those planes, because the engine needed more air. The planes that got F100's had to keep the smaller inlet, because the engine couldn't handle the additional air. A modular inlet design had to be developed, because a standardized inlet couldn't be integrated into the production line.

Changing the inlet design is trivial from a manufacturing prespective, but not from a design perspective. It has to be modeled throughout the performance envelope, AOA's etc. Lots of computer work and wind tunnel testing involved.

For these and many other reasons, I stand by my previous statement. A fighter jet is not a transport that you can hang the engines from pylons. Any change in the engine would require a major redesign of the AC.

I seem to recall reading that China has already procured either 50 or 250 RD-93 engines, I don't remember the number. China does have the ability to reverse engineer the engine, as demonstrated by the Al-31F/WS-10. Also, as the largest arms customer to Russia, thay have a significant amount of financial leverage. I'm sure that the RD-93 will still go in the JF-17, the only real question is whether it will be a Russian-made one or a Chinese copy.

[SABRE]

Engine is not going to be changed....one of the JF-17/FC-1 flies on Chinese Engine or so I have herd...if that AC is flying properly than there is no problem.

But on the other hand Musharaf stated in France last year (abt couple of months or 3, back) that he did discuss about Pakistan Airforces desire to aquire new jets (he did not say that wheather we were looking for French jets) any ways he also told the press that he also talked to the French President about the Jet we r making (JF-17).

If RD-93 is not available, Pakistan "will" have to ask dessault to make a new varient of Engine suitable to JF-17. It should be specificaly for JF-17. There is no way both China & Pakistan will abondon this project.

[Salman78]

swedes have ways of their own.
they wont have any objection giving PAF their datalink tech.
Jf-17 will hold its own then.

[corzair]

I'm confused about the engine situation also

I have read that the chinese says they have and signed agreement from the Russians fot the engines in question

And in other places the russians are reassuring the indian gov they will not agree to Pakistan as the end user - so exactly what is going on ? and surely the Ruskies know Pakistan is getting/making JF-17s

And so how does Pakistan Aero Complex fit in? Are they not going to build JF-17 incountry sort of co-make the Thunder? are they going to just build the airframe and get engines from china or what?

[adsH]

Pak kama was always supposed to be a "knock down " facility its sole purpose was to Integrate the High-tech Equipment onbord the chinese Airframes(i think, even-though they would have teh Capability to manufacture the Airframes). the tech which is going to be integrated onto the jet comes from variety of sources, If russians violate there agreement then the Chinese would just have to reverse engineer the RD93, which does not mean that they haven't done so already were forgetting the fact that the Chinese do tend to run production lines after the Initial Orders.

[hovercraft]

please tell me range of the radar of jf-17

[ajay_ijn]

please tell me range of the radar of jf-17
One Pakistan Source says it has search range of 100km.
Its Tracking range could be anywhere between 50-70km.
It would be comparable to Kopyo Radar.


If russians violate there agreement then the Chinese would just have to reverse engineer the RD93, which does not mean that they haven't done so already were forgetting the fact that the Chinese do tend to run production lines after the Initial Orders.

But Reverse engineering would take some time.
Some Indian Sources say FC-1 will be out by 2006.

I am surprised that PAF officials did not make any comment on news of Russia Rejecting the Engines.

[adsH]

What about the Ukrainians, there is increased Pak-Ukrainian Activity and Increased Anti Russian Feeling in Ukrain, its Possible they (PAF) have Ukrainians as Backup.

The Chinese if they ever were threatened like this, then people can be rest assured they would of Reverse engineered the Damn Engine Ages ago. Its in tehre nature to Study Tech that they get. Thats why Europe Does not sell Weapon systems to them.

[luccloud]

The Chinese if they ever were threatened like this, then people can be rest assured they would of Reverse engineered the Damn Engine Ages ago. Its in tehre nature to Study Tech that they get. Thats why Europe Does not sell Weapon systems to them.

Actually, if you read the newspaper, then u should realize that the reason Europe cannot sell weapon to China is because of a decade old ban. Even more important is that there are a lot talk in the EU about lifting a ban that prevent them from selling weapons to China, so I don't know where do you get your idea. Mod Edit: Highsea: unnecessary personal remark deleted. Read the Forum Rules, please

[adsH]

Yes I am Aware of the French/German Ledaer Initiative. But if you read abit closer. You would realize that the French and the german Parliaments, the Peoples representatives to the Government are not with the Idea. Partly because the Government looks out for the Nation on the whole, that includes the Functional Economy. whereas the Parliamentarians have interests that they want the Govs to Satisfy. the Parliamentarians see the "Communist" (No Offense Intended) UNdemocratic and shall we say "Not with the Democratic World". This is why the Parliamentarians would never allow leaders to open the Weapon flood gates. Remember these Leaders depend on the Parliament for Approval of Laws without support Governments Collapse and elections Fires up.
the "Decade old" ban may have had been placed due to Mistreatment of Rights Activists, but that Ban shall hold for the forceable future since the Fear of China Stealing technology would Strike Feer in the Hearts of developers ie Governments. This includes the Overwhelming Support for the Continued Weapons Sale Ban.

[luccloud]

Yes I am Aware of the French/German Ledaer Initiative. But if you read abit closer. You would realize that the French and the german Parliaments, the Peoples representatives to the Government are not with the Idea. Partly because the Government looks out for the Nation on the whole, that includes the Functional Economy. whereas the Parliamentarians have interests that they want the Govs to Satisfy. the Parliamentarians see the "Communist" (No Offense Intended) UNdemocratic and shall we say "Not with the Democratic World". This is why the Parliamentarians would never allow leaders to open the Weapon flood gates. Remember these Leaders depend on the Parliament for Approval of Laws without support Governments Collapse and elections Fires up.


I really doubt that it's offensive to call the Chinese government communist because it's their offical party name but it's always seem kinda funny because I really doubt that China can still be consider as communist nowadays if u think about how their economy work.

The only thing that will keep the the ban to continue will be pressure From US and Japan. The fear about the possibility of China copying the technology will not be unneccessary as I can see China will probably be willing to pay a premium on those weapon so that the deal will include transfer of techonloy.

Beside, EU isn't the only that have such technology, so it's always better to sell the technoloy and use the money to develop better ones so that they can keep an edge on military.

[ajay_ijn]

I seem to recall reading that China has already procured either 50 or 250 RD-93 engines, I don't remember the number
High Sea Can u give me some source.
China does not have any aircraft that is fitted with RD-93 other FC-1.

SinoDefence says that China has procured five engines from Russian for powering prototypes.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp
One Russian-made RD-93 turbofans, rated 49.4kN dry or 81.4kN with afterburning. China has reportedly imported five RD-93s from Russia to power the prototypes, but agreement of further purchase and re-export of the engine in together with the fighter aircraft has yet been reached. China may seek to power the aircraft with an indigenously-developed powerplant

Is there any chance that China might have started development an domestic engine for JF-17 long ago???
Even if the development of the engine would begin now,How much time would it approximately take??

One Source says that Russia agreed to supply 100 RD-93's to China but
backed out becoz of pressure from India.

http://biiss.org/nuclear/April2001/30.HTM

[adsH]

The Aircraft is a Joint Development so the Engine that is used in one Variant for PLA would be used for PAF, there is noway the Russians can deny PLA the Engine, since it would Piss off the Chinese. this End user Term falls into the Vague Area, where there are two end user but both are Developers too. I think there already is an agreement with the Chinese for the Supply, thats the reason why the Russians added the extra bit when they were stating the RD-93 would be Handed over to PAF, they said that supply of RD-93 would not be a violation of the Agreement Between India and Russia, the RD-93 is not a weapon.

[ajay_ijn]

they said that supply of RD-93 would not be a violation of the Agreement Between India and Russia, the RD-93 is not a weapon.

Indirectly Engine powers a weapon,Russian defence minister clearly said that they will not sell the engine to pakistan though its not a weapon system.

Its not about agreement,Its about decades of old friendly Military relationship that forces Russia not give RD-93 to pakistan.
The same forces India not to buy anything from US.
Every country cannot be like france.


Russians can deny PLA the Engine, since it would Piss off the Chinese.

First of all PLAAF till now has no plans to aquire this aircraft,Shown less interest.
Russians may not deny Engine to China but it will deny for pakistan.

I think there already is an agreement with the Chinese for the Supply, thats the reason why the Russians added the extra bit when they were stating the RD-93 would be Handed over to PAF

Without the permission of Russia,China cannot sell JF-17 to anybody even for pakistan.
There is no agreement till now about the RD-93.Only some engines were supplied for powering prototypes.
Russia denies aircraft engines to Pakistan
http://dailymailnews.com/200412/01/news/115.html

MOSCOW—Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov has denied reports about the sale of its aircraft engines to Pakistan that can be fitted to Chinese fighter jets.
Reports had earlier said that Russia is to supply RD-93 jet engines, used in advanced MiG-29 fighters, for the Chinese FC-1 fighter being jointly developed with Pakistan.
“The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system,” Ivanov told reporters before leaving for New Delhi on Tuesday to finalise the defence agenda of the fifth Indo-Russian summit on December 3.
Pakistan and Russian Federation’s bilateral trade relations have been in the past under the influence of the global politics, which resulted in meagre trade volume. The trade statistics of previous five years reveal that the trade volume has been hovering around $ 66 million in 1998-99 to $ 154 million in 2003-2004, which clearly indicates that we are at the lowest ebb of bilateral trade despite having enormous potential. The percentage share of Pakistan’s trade in the total Russian trade is negligibly 0.057 only. Though the present trade balance favours Russia by 113 million dollar, however, this trade balance can be reduced if our Russian Counterparts import more from Pakistan.—INP


Just see the occasion,Ivanov said this when he was about to leave for India.
He obviously wanted to make Indian govt happy.

This isn't the first time India kept pressure on other countries not to supply weapons to pakistan.
(1)US on F-16.
(2)Belgium on F-16
(3)Qatar on Mirage-2000-5.
(4)Russia on Mig-29 and Su-27.
and finally on RD-93 (Though not a weapon)


I think China is capable of building Similar version of RD-93

[luccloud]

Indirectly Engine powers a weapon,Russian defence minister clearly said that they will not sell the engine to pakistan though its not a weapon system.

Its not about agreement,Its about decades of old friendly Military relationship that forces Russia not give RD-93 to pakistan.
The same forces India not to buy anything from US.
Every country cannot be like france.


First of all PLAAF till now has no plans to aquire this aircraft,Shown less interest.
Russians may not deny Engine to China but it will deny for pakistan.

Without the permission of Russia,China cannot sell JF-17 to anybody even for pakistan.
There is no agreement till now about the RD-93.Only some engines were supplied for powering prototypes.
Russia denies aircraft engines to Pakistan
http://dailymailnews.com/200412/01/news/115.html

Just see the occasion,Ivanov said this when he was about to leave for India.
He obviously wanted to make Indian govt happy.



I think both China and Pakistan will not be dumb enough to push the JF-17 development foward without having certainity that they will able to accquire the engine.

May I remind you that India did buy some weapon from USA recently for india's own special force so I really doubt how much force does this "old friendly Military relationship " you claim have.

[adsH]

China is not selling JF-17 to Pakistan its Produceing it with Pakistan, Pakistan is not Just an End user of JF-17 it is also a developer. So Russia cannot prevent any deliveries of JF-17 to PAF except hold back the ENgines. In that case Chinese would deal with the Russians, and the Chinese would provide a subsitute.

[ajay_ijn]

I think both China and Pakistan will not be dumb enough to push the JF-17 development foward without having certainity that they will able to accquire the engine.
There is now way Chinese are going to stop the development of JF-17.
Pakistan has given 150Million Dollars for development of FC-1/JF-17.
Chinese will surely design a new engine similar to RD-93 or a Copy of RD-93.

But question did they start the development or they did not thinking that russia will continously supply RD-93 for production of JF-17???

Even if they start the development now then how much time would it take??



China is not selling JF-17 to Pakistan its Produceing it with Pakistan, Pakistan is not Just an End user of JF-17 it is also a developer. So Russia cannot prevent any deliveries of JF-17 to PAF except hold back the ENgines. In that case Chinese would deal with the Russians, and the Chinese would provide a subsitute.

What has pakistan developed for JF-17 ???
Till I know they gave money for the development.

Just like India jointly developing Fifth Generation Fighter with Russia.
Actually India will develop very less for the fighter but will fund for the project so that India engineers will have some experience in developing a stealth fighter.



May I remind you that India did buy some weapon from USA recently for india's own special force so I really doubt how much force does this "old friendly Military relationship " you claim have.

LOL.
Engines,Weapon Locating Radars,FBW system etc this all what India buyed from USA.
Each of them would not cost more than 30Million Dollars.
If I begin to list out what India has buyed from Russia/Soviet union, it will not end.
Su-30MKI,T-90S,Gorshkov,Kilo,Mig-29,Krivak-III,Klub,..... etc 70% of what India Military has is aquired from Russia.
Each of these deals cost in Billions of Dollars.

Friendly Military relationship is not entirely Buying and selling of weapons but giving moral support in case of war,Which Russia did during every war India Fought.

[adsH]

According to AFM articles back dated Issue which were about PAF s Capability, it outlined Pakistan’s Role in the development of the J-10 Avionics Suite where Engineers of the PAF were guiding Chinese counterparts on Specifications requirements and ETC of Technologies, the Chinese have the Skills and the man power but they need guidance towards developing technology related to the Current War Doctrines.

PAF is the Designer and Integrator of the JF-17 avionics Packages, there involvement seems to stretch from the Inception stages to the deployment stages. This is why PAF is so adamant on procuring these AC rather then the J-10 which has not been developed specifically to meet the requirements of PAF

[hovercraft]

The JF-17 will be powered by one Klimov RD-93 turbofan, (an upgraded version of RD-33) which generates more thrust and being more fuel efficient then its previous version. The engine gives 11,000 pounds (49.4 kN) dry and 18,300 pounds (81.4 kN) of thrust with afterburning. The engine will be built in China under license.

http://defencetalk.com/wdb/airsystems/fighters/FC-1-JF-17_Thunder.html

[ajay_ijn]

The JF-17 will be powered by one Klimov RD-93 turbofan, (an upgraded version of RD-33) which generates more thrust and being more fuel efficient then its previous version. The engine gives 11,000 pounds (49.4 kN) dry and 18,300 pounds (81.4 kN) of thrust with afterburning. The engine will be built in China under license.

http://defencetalk.com/wdb/airsystems/fighters/FC-1-JF-17_Thunder.html (http://defencetalk.com/wdb/airsystems/fighters/FC-1-JF-17_Thunder.html)
That is an onld news.
Now Russia Clearly said that it won't give RD-93 if pakistan is shown as an end-user.

[adsH]

That is an onld news.
Now Russia Clearly said that it won't give RD-93 if pakistan is shown as an end-user.

it wont give it but it can't restrict China from supplying the License built versions, if Russia holds back the license then China will simply ignore the license issue.

[ajay_ijn]

it wont give it but it can't restrict China from supplying the License built versions, if Russia holds back the license then China will simply ignore the license issue.

In any case if China violates the agreement Russia will simply refuse to supply the Engines and spares to China.
How will China Simply ignore it???
But Still the deal for the RD-93 itself is not signed.

However India will make sure that Pakistan will not get the Russian Engine.

[asaracen]

Stating the obvious - the key components on an aircraft are engine and avionics.
With JF17, the situation is still fluid on both accounts. Russia would not allow its engine to be exported to Pakistan, and the Europeans have arms embargo against China. Until these crucial areas are sorted, JF17 is flying no where fast. Forget about PAF induction in 2006.
But the hope is that the Europeans will lift embargo in the next 6 months, and somehow Russia could be convinced to change their decision on RD 93.

Aircrafts are progressively developed over decades, so these are early days for JF17. It would certainly become the work horse of PAF sooner or later.:)

[fieldmarshal]

PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

By Hanif Khalid

source http://jang.com.pk/thenews/
ISLAMABAD: The first squadron of ultramodern fighter planes, JF-17 Thunder, would be inducted in the Pakistan Air Force fleet in the middle of next year.

This squadron will consist of six supersonic warplanes being jointly built by Pakistan and China. Engineers and technicians from both the countries have started building five prototype fighter planes. The prototype project is likely to be completed within a couple of months.

A highly placed source has confirmed that the PAF would induct 150 JF-17 fighters in phases. These planes would be equipped with latest avionics, most of which are being jointly developed by the two countries. These would be inducted in the PAF to replace Chinese origin warplanes, A-5 and F-7, which are completing their stated life. It is learnt that the China Air Force would induct more than 500 JF-17 fighter planes during coming years.

The project was conceived during the then prime minister Nawaz Sharif’s first regime in the early 90s. The first test flight of the supersonic jet was successfully conducted in September 2003 in China. It is learnt that the production cost of this medium technology fighter would be significantly less than the international market price of such state-of-the-art planes.

[berry580]

Well it's indeed astonishing that China is using JF-17 in masses.
It sounds much more valid over the theory that J-10's being inducted in less number (200-300) which matches the 'local war under hi-tech condition' thing.

[Red aRRow]

Hmmm the source (Jang News) is quite notorious when it comes to military reporting. But lets see 500 planes for PLAAF wow that would be something.

[adsH]

Well it's indeed astonishing that China is using JF-17 in masses.
It sounds much more valid over the theory that J-10's being inducted in less number (200-300) which matches the 'local war under hi-tech condition' thing.

Its not about the Masses i think the Pakistanis and the Chinese are using the same Avionics systems, designed by Pakistanis engineered by Chinese and built by the chinese. Pakistanis have more experience flying around in US and other Western AC. so naturally they would have more western Engineering experience, hence-they become consultants. The JF-17 and the J-10 as i see it would end up having more or less the same Avionics. except the JF-17 would be the cheaper version of the J-10. since the The J-10 would have TVC and various other structural difference that make it superior to JF-17. the JF-17 would remain the 3rd gen fighter because it would be classed as one. this does not mean that its avionic system would be less capable then the J-10.

If china Procures 500 of these then the price tag for these AC would fall bellow 15 mill US $ For sure. And the chinese need to develop a strong Backbone backed by a good class Fighter for there Air-force.

[SABRE]

All the articals I have read so far about Jf-17 & J-10 say that they would replace F-7 & A-5(Q-5) while many PAF officials have indicated that both F-7 & Q5 will stay as long as China is producing them & up-grading them. China is now upgrading the F-7PG to next version & Q5C has just been upgraded to Q5D...I remember having chat with PF-X abt Q-5..although Q5 looks ugly & old but its features & characterisitcs are amazing. I mean the AC can completely destroy any tank in the world when backed by Air Superiority.
JF-17 may help Pakistan China create a back bone of their Force but next gen F-7s & Q5s will probably stay till 2015 even if they have got masses of JF-17 & J-10.
Q5 will definitly stay cause its best Ground attack AC both Pakistan & China have. F-7PGs will be upgraded to F-7K & might be used for Air Support Superiority & Air-War training.
Hope that the new F-7 like MiG-21 Bison can attack multiple targets at a time. PAF asked France to intigrate Mirage 3 & 5 with multi targeting facility on which France is yet to reply. If this happens than Mirage 3 & 5 may servive till 2015 as well.

Remember what ever JF-17 can do it can never be a strong ground attack, its light weight so its body is weak. Q5 r made heavy & their bodies r strong & can take on alot of damage PS the cockpit is builet proof. So the JF-17 & J-10 can never be a good ground attack ACs & replace Q5. To replace Q5 China will have to develop a new Ground attack AC, but at the moment Q5D r even better than Russian Su-25.

[rafale_2k5]

Its not about the Masses i think the Pakistanis and the Chinese are using the same Avionics systems, designed by Pakistanis engineered by Chinese and built by the chinese. Pakistanis have more experience flying around in US and other Western AC. so naturally they would have more western Engineering experience, hence-they become consultants. The JF-17 and the J-10 as i see it would end up having more or less the same Avionics. except the JF-17 would be the cheaper version of the J-10. since the The J-10 would have TVC and various other structural difference that make it superior to JF-17. the JF-17 would remain the 3rd gen fighter because it would be classed as one. this does not mean that its avionic system would be less capable then the J-10.

If china Procures 500 of these then the price tag for these AC would fall bellow 15 mill US $ For sure. And the chinese need to develop a strong Backbone backed by a good class Fighter for there Air-force.

Pardon me BRO but i disagree with this argument of urs that pakstanis have more experience on western stuff , the argument may have been valid probably a decade ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but currently chinese operate come ofthe the most advanced versions of su-30 n we all know its no mean machine , plus chinese have some of the best industrial espionage organizations i wold still bet my two cents on chinese bein more experienced whereas our gains would be as somebody mentioned in devloping n designing a combat aircraft which previously we didnt have, like in the case of al khalid n other projects it would give some semblance of know how , for future R & D projects.....

[adsH]

Pardon me BRO but i disagree with this argument of urs that pakstanis have more experience on western stuff , the argument may have been valid probably a decade ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but currently chinese operate come ofthe the most advanced versions of su-30 n we all know its no mean machine , plus chinese have some of the best industrial espionage organizations i wold still bet my two cents on chinese bein more experienced whereas our gains would be as somebody mentioned in devloping n designing a combat aircraft which previously we didnt have, like in the case of al khalid n other projects it would give some semblance of know how , for future R & D projects.....

Pakistani are western Trained they were a part of the Royal Armed Forces before they broke-up there Cadre can never be compared to the CHinese. the Pakistanis have had access to all sort of Jets in the western world, they have been evaluating the Swedish Grippens have been evaluating french Mirage 2005 and other various Version of the AC, they help the Arab Air-forces In the acquisitions they Outsource and Fly some of there AC. I doubt the CHinese have a larger Breadth of experience in terms of Flying cutting edge AC other then what they built and what they fly that comes from the Soviet theories.

And just to add alitle Bit.. theory hasn't changed the practices that were Developed decades ago are still in practiced we just find better ways of implementing them with newer technologies.

[SABRE]

Chinese PM is due tomorrow (5th April) to annouce the opening of Gwadar port :D after that he'll lay down the foundation for JF-17 production facility :D

It is time !!!

[lakhani]

KAMRA: President General Pervaiz Musharraf has inaugurated the production project of JF-17 thunder fighter jets in Aeronautical Complex here.

Some of the jets would expectedly hand over to Pakistan Air Force till December 2006.

Pakistan and China singed an agreement in 1999 for the production followed by the training of Pakistani engineers in China.

Under the project, fifty percent parts would be produce in Pakistan including airframes and avionics.

After the production of airframe and avionics, Pakistan would join the club of countries having expertise in airplane production.

[srirangan]

How many flights has the FC-1 made till date?

[P.A.F]

quite a few. do not know the exact number.

[SABRE]

Chinese have habbit of keeping things secret & Pakistan also respects that. They dont realy allow public & media near JF-17 & specialy J-10. When JF-17 was being tested for flight at PAF Kamra base, Pakistan too did not allow reporters also asked them not to take pics when its airborne over Rawalpindi.
The only 2 public viewing came in China when first unit was completed & put on display for media & 2nd when it was displayed here at Pakistan to government & Pakistan Television.

So informations have not been made public on number of flights are unknown. Its unpublished.

[P.A.F]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/04/06/top1.htm
New jet 'giant leap' towards self-reliance: President opens aircraft production

KAMRA, April 5: President Gen Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday described the launching of JF-17 thunder aircraft production project as a giant leap towards indigenization and self-reliance , saying Pakistan will maintain minimum level of defensive deterrence in both conventional and unconventional fields as it wants peace with dignity and honour.

Addressing the launching ceremony of the production project of the multi-role fighter plane, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, the president said it reflects the time-tested friendship between the two countries.

"The time-tested, all-weather and deep-rooted Pakistan-China friendship is going from strength to strength and will be further enhanced with the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao," he said hours before the arrival of the Chinese leader for a three-day visit.

"Pakistan has come a long way and stands at the threshold of a major leap forward by acquiring indigenous capability of manufacturing the JF-17 aircraft, which will form the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force," he said at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

Pakistan, he said, stands for peace but jealously guards its sovereignty. Pakistan will continue to maintain its strategy of defensive deterrence, he said. He expressed Islamabad's determination not to compromise on the minimum deterrence level in both fields. "We are maintaining this deterrence level as it guarantees peace with honour and dignity," he said.

Pakistan has evaluated the requirements of its armed forces for the next 15 years and declared that the country has both resources and skilled manpower to meet the target for the next 15 years and maintain defensive deterrence strategy.

The president unveiled a plaque to mark the launching of the project at the ceremony, which was attended by Defence Minister Rao Sikander Iqbal, Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Defence Production Minister Habibullah Warriach, Services chiefs and senior officials. -APP
__________________________________________________ _________________

i wonder what else hes gonna buy under this 15 year plan:D

[SABRE]

China is to hand over 1st batch of JF-17 to Pakistan next year in 2006 while 1st Pakistani produced batch would be released in 2008.

[P.A.F]

the first batch consists of 8 aircraft right???

[SABRE]

the first batch consists of 8 aircraft right???

From what I have herd so far, yes. 8 is the number. 1 is already here but thats actualy Super-7 prototype but lets count it in. So its 9.

[SABRE]

according to a report China & Pakistan will produce "16" JF-17s "togather" out of which 8 will go to PLAAF (this indicates PLAAF might use FC-1) & 8 will go to PAF.
1st deleveries begin in 2006. There are two prototypes, one is China & other in Pakistan. Which means both countries will have 9 unit of the AC in 2006.

PAF has requirement for atleast 150 JF-17s.

[highsea]

...There are two prototypes, one is China & other in Pakistan. Which means both countries will have 9 unit of the AC in 2006.
I think there are 4 prototypes, one for static tests and 3 for flight tests (excluding the Super-7 prototype). I doubt that any of these would be inducted into service, but I suppose it's possible they could be rebuilt when the test phases are completed. It would be unusual, though, usually these AC end up on display somewhere.

[SABRE]

I think there are 4 prototypes, one for static tests and 3 for flight tests (excluding the Super-7 prototype). I doubt that any of these would be inducted into service, but I suppose it's possible they could be rebuilt when the test phases are completed. It would be unusual, though, usually these AC end up on display somewhere.

Most reports are pointing out that there are two..anyways I dont think prototypes would be inducted or rebuilt for battle mode...display is more likely. Super-7 prototype might end up here in karachi PAF meusum or at PAC KAMRA JF-17 production facility gate.

[highsea]

Most reports are pointing out that there are two...Could be, I was going by Sinodefence.

[SABRE]

Could be, I was going by Sinodefence.

I was pointing out reports from western media...but when it comes to JF-17 I'll take it from SinoDefence. I guess than there 4 prototypes excluding the Super-7 which i believe there are two of them

[P.A.F]

I just read that the JF-17 doesn't have a canon. is that true?:mad:

[kashifshahzad]

I just read that the JF-17 doesn't have a canon. is that true?:mad:

Yeah i have seen the image it dosent have the multibarrel canon and also not mensioned in the weapon system . May be provied in the comming aircrafts:confused:

[AK_PAK]

Does anyone have the latest on the Russians and the RD-93? Do they have an issue with China exported it to Pakistan and if they do, can't China just reverse engineer it? :D

[BilalK]

I'm sure the engine problem isn't too big an issue, I mean the first odd 50 JF-17s will be armed with advanced Chinese avionics, to meet a possible urgent need for BVRAAMs. However, if the first 50 do enter production, y suggestion is that PAC and CAC start developing a JF-17 with a European engine, and Western Avionics, and make sure that version of JF-17 forms the PAF's remainder 100.

[kashifshahzad]

I'm sure the engine problem isn't too big an issue, I mean the first odd 50 JF-17s will be armed with advanced Chinese avionics, to meet a possible urgent need for BVRAAMs. However, if the first 50 do enter production, y suggestion is that PAC and CAC start developing a JF-17 with a European engine, and Western Avionics, and make sure that version of JF-17 forms the PAF's remainder 100.

The engine may be the big issue caz the range or operational radius may depend on it or it may be depanding on how much fuel it carries I think JF-17's dosent have multibarrel cannon so it may be the drawback caz it can be used in a closer combat and can do a reasonable damage

After the F-16's experiation those engines can be fitted in these JF-17's or their desing will be coppied to develop a **** version or the chinese one

[adsH]

After the F-16's experiation those engines can be fitted in these JF-17's or their desing will be coppied to develop a **** version or the chinese one

Not possible the Integration of a new engine is just not the "Size" Issue its to do with Thrust, Structure, Size, Air Inlet/Outlets, weight issues, Electrics, Basically integrating a new engine would require Extensive modifications to the Engine management System-and subroutines. Possible redesign may be required. so you might see the whole CAD process again. then there is testing so its a long process. At this point if you try and integrate a new Engine the Jump back to redesign process would be costly your at a point in development Stage where any Jump from the testing would be Costly Very Costly. the Russians would not Denny the engine since they know there are Possible large Follow onn orders since allot of Air-force are interested in this low priced Jet.

and an eaisier way for PAf would be to Possibly get the Ukrainians to provide them with the Engine.

[BilalK]

I doubt that RD-93 is an issue, we haven't seen any considerable delays (announced to the public) on the JF-17's development. However, my take is that when PAF takes delivery of its first 50, it and CAC will jointly develop a new JF-17 model, with a better engine, avionics, etc.

[umair]

Once again, there is an ironclad 3 way contract for the RD-93 engines. No party can break it's commitment, without incurring hefty monetary penalties. It's from my sources(which btw have been spot on) take it at it's face value or not.
BTW good to see you here DF.

[BilalK]

As far as anything should be concerned about RD-93, all the stuff you hear about engine problems are BS, plain and simple.

[kashifshahzad]

I think after having much JF-17's Pakistan must develop the engines indignously too because during the war or when the clouds of war will be arriving the engines supply can be cut because of external pressures so take extensive measures in this matter

[P.A.F]

Maybe pakistans later versions of the JF-17 will have thrust vectoring engines:D

[kashifshahzad]

Maybe pakistans later versions of the JF-17 will have thrust vectoring engines:D

Dear explain what are thrust vectoring engines :(

[P.A.F]

kashifshahzadQuote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
Maybe pakistans later versions of the JF-17 will have thrust vectoring engines:D





Thrust vectoring engines are engines with adjustable nozzles. they make the aircraft manover much much better. indias Mig-29Ks have these as well as Su-30MKI's.
see pics below.
http://image05.webshots.com/5/4/42/43/66244243dFiBLw_fs.jpg
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow01/zhukovsky/MiG-29OVTnozzles.jpg


the F-22 will have them aswell.

[P.A.F]

sorry the pics don't work. just search
"thrust vectoring engines" on google and you'll see.:)

[P.A.F]

heres a good illustration
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/nozzles/axi-vs-2d-nozzle.jpg

[kashifshahzad]

heres a good illustration
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/nozzles/axi-vs-2d-nozzle.jpg
Yaar tell me the differnece between these two engines i dont wanna see the design and the pics

[P.A.F]

kashgif you ask too many questions yaar. i've just told u. do some research for yourself.

the difference between the two engines is this.

Standard engines do not have rotating nozzles. the aircraft relyes on its rudders, flaps to manover.

Thrust vectoring engines have nozzles which actually rotates. this helps the aircraft to manover better then most other aircraft.

[P.A.F]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/05/10/nat2.htm

KAMRA, May 9: Serial production of multi-role combat aircraft, JF-17 Thunder, would start at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra from 2007, said chief project director, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif, while briefing journalists at the Complex on Monday.

The production of JF-17 would lessen the dependability of Pakistan Air Force on the fleet of the US made F-16’s as the first choice for combat operations as the new aircraft is designed to meet the requirements of the contemporary battle space with an ability to carry the latest BVRs (Beyond Visual Range Missiles).

Jointly developed by Pakistan and China, JF-17 is worth almost half the price tag of the $25 million US made F-16.

As dictated by the mission requirements, AVM Shahid said, JF-17 would be able to carry short range, Beyond Visual Range (BVR), anti-ship missiles, anti-radiation missiles, high and low drag bombs, laser guided, runway penetration and cluster bombs.

A number of countries have placed advance orders for the purchase of JF-17, said AVM Shahid, adding, PAC Kamra would have the capacity to roll out 20 combat birds each year.

AVM Shahid said besides catering to the export orders of various countries, PAF has a demand of 150 JF-17s while China requires 250 JF-17s.

On the occasion, chairman PAC, Air Marshal Aurangzeb, briefed the journalists about production facilities at the complex and said Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Sri Lanka were among the list of customers for Mushshak and overhaul of FT-5 and F-7 aircraft.

[P.A.F]

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050510-071006-6404r.htm



Analysis: Pakistan, China work on fighters
http://images.washtimes.com/images/clear.gif
http://images.washtimes.com/images/twt-grey2.gif
By Anwar Iqbal
UPI South Asian Affairs Analyst
http://images.washtimes.com/images/twt-grey2.gif Washington, DC, May. 10 (UPI) -- The multirole JF-17 aircraft Pakistan is building jointly with China is a mid-tech plane that fills in the gap between lower and upper technology, Brig. Shafqaat Ahmad, Pakistan's defense attaché in Washington, said.


Pakistan also is buying 24 F-16 jet fighters from the United States for its air force, leading to traditional rival India saying Islamabad has started an arms race in the region. Pakistan denies the charge.

"While we are acquiring the F-16s to meet our immediate defense requirements, the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that Pakistan is producing jointly with China has nothing to do with any arms race," Ahmad said.

He said some of the Chinese aircraft now in use in Pakistan would need replacement soon and the government had decided that sharing technology with China would be preferable to buying more aircraft. He said the bulk of these aircraft, three out of four, would go to China.

This explanation, however, does not satisfy India. Reports in the Indian media, quoting defense experts, say the JF-17s can be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The reports cited Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's remarks, during Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao's visit to the country last month, that Pakistan wanted to keep a minimum level of conventional and unconventional defensive deterrence. In New Delhi, this was interpreted that the JF-17 could be used to deliver nuclear weapons.

During the visit, Wen assured Musharraf China would help defend Pakistan's "sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity." In India, this was interpreted as meaning while China wants to improve its relations with New Delhi, it will continue its decades-long close defense and strategic ties with Pakistan.

Other Indian experts, such as Ashutosh Mishra of the Institute of Defense Studies and Analyses in New Delhi told reporters there was no reason to fear the JF-17s. He said these are slightly improved versions of the F-7 aircraft, which were equivalent to India's Russia-made MiG-21s, Pakistan now needs to phase out. India's Mig-21s have been replaced by newer versions.

The joint China-Pakistan venture first began in the late 1990s when Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif still ruled Pakistan. The aircraft was first called Super-7, then renamed FC-1 in 2001 and are now being produced as JF-17.

The planes are being built at Kamra, a cantonment located between Islamabad and the northwestern city of Peshawar at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, an organ of the Pakistan Ministry of Defense.

China's Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Corp. is also assisting Kamra in developing a new jet trainer known as Karakorum-8, or K-8.

Traditionally, Pakistan had depended on the United States for its weapon requirements, but when in 1990 the United States stopped all arms sales to Pakistan following a dispute over its nuclear program, Islamabad began to look at other options.

The sanctions grounded the F-16 aircraft Pakistan had purchased from Washington in the 1980s. Other mid-tech aircraft, such as F-6s, F-7s, A-5s and Mirages that Pakistan bought from other sources were aging and needed to be replaced. So in February 1992, Pakistan negotiated a deal with the China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp., which had invited the Pakistan Air Force to invest in the Super-7 program in return for full participation in design and development, with exclusive co-production rights of up to 59 percent of the Super-7 airframe. The air force received Islamabad's approval in October 1994.

JF-17 is a lightweight, multirole, day-night, all-weather fighter with maximum takeoff weight of 2,700 kilograms, maximum speed 1.7 M, ceiling 16,500 meters, max weapon load 3,900 kilograms, range 3,000 kilograms. It would be equipped with a Russian engine, probably RD-33, that powers the MiG-29.

The Pakistani version would carry a European avionics suite that includes multimode Pulse Doppler radar, inertial navigation system and multi-function displays. Pakistan says it will fulfill 70 percent of its air force's operational requirements.

The JF-17 is designed to be fitted with a vast array of weaponry. Weapon load includes short- and medium-range anti-air missiles like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E. In addition it includes new fly-by-wire flight control system and a true beyond visual range attack capability.

More important for Pakistan is that it will train the nation's engineers and mechanics in the art of aircraft making.

The first flight of the aircraft took place Sept. 04, 2003, and after flight testing, the Pakistan Air Force decided to start serial production. PAF plans to buy about 150 aircraft. China plans to acquire 250 aircraft.

Pakistani officials said they also intend to sell the JF-17 to other countries interested in mid-tech aircraft.

While briefing journalists at Kamra Monday, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif, the chief project director for the JF-17, denied media reports Russia had cancelled an agreement with China to provide engines for the aircraft. He said China continued to receive the engines and the supply will continue in the near future.

He said the JF-17 was a lightweight aircraft that can be refueled in the air.

"The JF-17 is strategically very important for our air force and it also has far-reaching implications both for the national defense and economic prosperity," he said.

He said under the agreement between the two countries, half the fighters would be produced on an assembly line in China while the other half would be made in Pakistan.

U.S. defense experts told London's Financial Times the JF-17 was no threat to the United States.

"If you want hundreds of planes to look size a sizable air force, it comes in handy," Richard Aboulafia, aviation analyst at the Teal Group, told the paper. "It does not come in handy in any other circumstances. If you put it head to head against an F-16 it would probably last about 5 seconds."

Michael O'Hanlon, defense analyst at the Brookings Institution, said the United States was less concerned with fighter jets produced by China.

"These are a couple of middle-range technological powers," said O'Hanlon to the newspaper. "I worry a lot more about Soviet-era MiGs and Su-27s and Israeli command and control and any help with their pilot training."

[kashifshahzad]

P.A.F which countries are the buyers of JF-17 thunders it is not mentioned above ???

[P.A.F]

i can't say. from what i know its china, pakistan, zimbabwe are interested, bangladesh and countries like that. can someone else say?

[kashifshahzad]

i can't say. from what i know its china, pakistan, zimbabwe are interested, bangladesh and countries like that. can someone else say?
I have read somewhere that this JF-17 is equal to the Russian Mig 21 so how these countries will be willing to buy this kind of plane in $15m :(

[P.A.F]

i read that as well. that is the indian claim. i think its a load of BS so don't listen to it!!!

[srirangan]

i read that as well. that is the indian claim. i think its a load of BS so don't listen to it!!!
Where would you rate JF17?

[adsH]

Where would you rate JF17?

Anyone with the least bit of inteligence could tell this is a differnt platfrom, its easier to design a new AC from scratch rather then modify it. And this isn't a sub subsonic Jet, its designed to move to sub Trans and Super sonic, it requires a properly built airframe that can sustain breaking through the sound barier.

what would i rate this AC. i wouldn't have a clue since its electrics would determine what its capable of doing. its been listed as a Pure 3rd gen fighter i have no doubt it is. Although the PAF ACM was quoted saying that its less capable then the F-16C/d or the Belgium MLU Standard. the difference between the C/D would be the Armaments that it caries the Fire control systems the radars (Missions computer Hardware is off the shelf you can expect similarities), and the extra Algorithms which dictate Behavior of the AC, EW methods and Automated Algorithms (i tend to use the WORD AI with Caution). these are the Areas the AC could grow in, since the hardware used on the AC is Commercially available its upto PAF Software engineers to design newer cleverer Automated algorithms and install them during the Subsequent upgrades. Its again a Software driven Platform that i believe the majority of the Airforces are moving towards. COTS Hardware and Software driven Functionality.

[srirangan]

Anyone with the least bit of inteligence could tell this is a differnt platfrom
Thanks for the sarcasm.

Now anybody with a bit of intelligence (notice the correct spelling) would realize that I never claimed them to be based on the same platform. I simply asked PAF where he would rate the JF17, since he seemed to have quite an opinion on that.

[srirangan]

[self edit]

[adsH]

Mod Edit: Highsea: adsH, look again. I deleted both your's and Sri's responses.

Now, enough bickering. The topic is JF-17

well atleast you could of Told me that Before i went off claiming he deleted my messages nice thinking Highsea!!!. Could you tell me when you do something like that. Your absolutely annoying !!!

[WebMaster]

Get back to the damn topic folks. Next time if there is a problem with spelling or anything, ask one of the mods for counseling. I don't really enjoy watching cat fights on our forums.

Highsea, thanks for breaking it off.

[P.A.F]

sriranganQuote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
i read that as well. that is the indian claim. i think its a load of BS so don't listen to it!!!


Where would you rate JF17?



I don't know about the standard FC-1 but the JF-17 pakistan is purchasing with western avionics will be more like in the league of somewhere in the F-16 league. somewhere between block 15 and 32. however it is so stupid to make claims like JF-17 being equal to Mig-21 which was make like generations ago:D .

[srirangan]

however it is so stupid to make claims like JF-17 being equal to Mig-21 which was make like generations ago
The MiG-21 Bisons are very capable even today you know.

[P.A.F]

yes i understand that sri. and i respect your view. but most people would agree to the fact that the JF-17 will out do the performance of the Mig-21. i'm not saying the Mig-21 is worthless. i mean its a great aircraft which performed well in Cope india. but i just don't think that it is equal to the JF-17. it is inferior.;) (in my point of view anyway). and still has tonnes of room to be upgraded.

[srirangan]

yes i understand that sri. and i respect your view. but most people would agree to the fact that the JF-17 will out do the performance of the Mig-21. i'm not saying the Mig-21 is worthless. i mean its a great aircraft which performed well in Cope india. but i just don't think that it is equal to the JF-17. it is inferior.;) (in my point of view anyway). and still has tonnes of room to be upgraded.
Can't really debate for or against, so little information is out on the armaments, avionics and engine of the JF17. I guess we'll have to wait for those before we actually rate the JF17. Perhaps you have some sources that you'ld like to quote?

MiG 21 Bisons otoh are one of the most capable fighters in the Sub Continent especially given the role they have in the IAF.

[P.A.F]

sri. india are making the LCA to replace the MiG-21, 23, 25 and jaguars. and i'm sure the LCA is much more superior to all these. no doubt about that. Now LCA is ment to be compared to the JF-17 not the MiG-21. The JF-17 has partly been made to compete against the LCA so they will obviously have more or less the same specs. If the MiG-21's where so capable then the IAF would keep on running them and there would be no need for the LCA. they may be good in exercises but I can tell you now that in a real time full scale war the MiG-21's would be flying coffin stones. they are old crippled aircraft. time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.

[srirangan]

sri. india are making the LCA to replace the MiG-21, 23, 25 and jaguars. and i'm sure the LCA is much more superior to all these. no doubt about that. Now LCA is ment to be compared to the JF-17 not the MiG-21. The JF-17 has partly been made to compete against the LCA so they will obviously have more or less the same specs. If the MiG-21's where so capable then the IAF would keep on running them and there would be no need for the LCA. they may be good in exercises but I can tell you now that in a real time full scale war the MiG-21's would be flying coffin stones. they are old crippled aircraft. time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.
True. JF-17's will be better than the MiG 21's. But how much better? That cannot be said unless we get the information about the engines, avionics and armaments. Btw the Bison's are expected to serve in the IAF till 2015.

[adsH]

MiG 21 Bisons otoh are one of the most capable fighters in the Sub Continent especially given the role they have in the IAF.


Mig-21 They are still one the best in WVR.

But given the fact that they have been in service along time. I doubt they would be able to go head on with a newer AC which is based on a superior Platform of its generation.

Plus you have to acknowledge the fact that the JF-17 was intentionally designed for FBW flight. Other then that i doubt the Bisson is irrelevant.

I think LCA will be a challenge for the JF-17 since India would do what its better at doing hardware design and programming.

IAF realising the potential for continued utilization of the MiG-21 rightly decided to upgrade 125 MiG-21-BIS aircraft with Russian assistance. Upgrade program has commenced at Nasik Division of HAL and the program likely to be completed by 2005. Essentially, the features of upgrade are, Multimode Pulse Doppler Fire Control Radar (Kopyo), RLG based Inertial Navigation system with GPS, HUD, MFD, Helmet mounted sight, Weapon Aiming Computer, ECM, Mission Planning and Retrieval, CVR & FDR and flexible architecture of digital bus interface. MiG-21-BIS upgrade program is behind schedule and has faced inordinate delay due to various reasons, importantly instability of Russian Industry. These upgraded aircraft with plenty of airframe hours would serve the designated operational slot for at least a decade and a half.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-1/suresh.html

the Helmet Mounted sight should allow improve the kill rate for the AC, i must say its an impressive upgrade for a mig21.

Sri does it it have a datalink capability to either work with the Falcons.

[srirangan]

oh man they are pretty..
http://www.ada.gov.in/LCAPh1.jpg

adsH i'll get back to that .. gtg now

[adsH]

time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.

these Airframes are perfectly good for use. IAF has to reduce the Attrition rate by Fixing the Training and Maintenance Regimes. the mig-21 still have considerable time on there airframes. And i think the 125 upgraded have a considerable life left in them.

[P.A.F]

adsHQuote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.



these Airframes are perfectly good for use. IAF has to reduce the Attrition rate by Fixing the Training and Maintenance Regimes. the mig-21 still have considerable time on there airframes. And i think the 125 upgraded have a considerable life left in them.



They might be able to fly but the design is sure old!!! IAF has done as much as it possibly can to keep these Bisons going but they should be phased out in my opinion. they should be replaced with LCA's once fully finished.

[srirangan]

They are being phased out, the 126 M-MRCA's and the 2008 Induction of the 40 LCA, bu the last of the MiG 21's shall be serving till 2012-15 as told by the Air Chief Marshal in a recent interview.

[P.A.F]

sriranganThey are being phased out, the 126 M-MRCA's and the 2008 Induction of the 40 LCA, bu the last of the MiG 21's shall be serving till 2012-15 as told by the Air Chief Marshal in a recent interview.



Sri. do u have an appoximate number of how many MiG-21 india is planning to keep till 2012-15????

[srirangan]

Sri. do u have an appoximate number of how many MiG-21 india is planning to keep till 2012-15????
The upgraded Bisons (around 150) would be the last ones that shall be phased out. Really can't comment though as they depend on future events.

[P.A.F]

Ok. lets get back to the JF-17 topic:D

[adsH]

The upgraded Bisons (around 150) would be the last ones that shall be phased out. Really can't comment though as they depend on future events.

they really have to reduce the number of types Platform being operated. maintenance must be a headache when you have so many AC types. Every aircraft that ages beyond a point requires a proportionate amount of Care. Frame weakness metal fatigue etc. so as the Migs get old they will be very costly to operate. i think the reason why they are being kept in service is to fill the Time it will take for IAF to replace the Migs 21. i don't think any part of the IAF Top brass wants to keep these AC flying.

srri back to my original question what kind of Datalink capability does the Bisson have it must have some sort of datalink. if there is a Datlink capability then i think the mig would be able to seriously threaten the JF-17.