JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[SABRE]

I ve herd that USA is developing Saber-2 which also happens to be one man flyer like JF-17. The Saber-2 plans r those that USA planned for FC-1 with China b4 breaking away from the project. So this Jet is also very much like the JF-17.

I wounder why USA needs such Jets when they ve got F/A-22 project just completed.

[gf0012-aust]

The Sabre 2 is a 1950-60's RCAF version of the USAF F-86E.
It can also refer to the first of the century fighters and is one of the names given to the F-100 super sabre.

I think you might have some crossed info. The USAF has already defined it's future hi-lo mix.

[SABRE]

some one from this link gave me this info long time ago.

R u sure that Saber-2 is the 1950's-60's version. I think they were saber-1

[adsH]

some one from this link gave me this info long time ago.

R u sure that Saber-2 is the 1950's-60's version. I think they were saber-1

JF-17 was Super saber or something along time ago before the US Left the Project.

[gf0012-aust]

some one from this link gave me this info long time ago.

R u sure that Saber-2 is the 1950's-60's version. I think they were saber-1

The RCAF versions were called Sabre 2's

[Aussie Digger]

It will be a long, long time before anything surpasses the F/A-22 in pure air to air combat. The F/A-22 has had so much research and development that it will take decades for anyone to be able to surpass it, even the US.

[Revival_786]

Think Aurora :)

[adsH]

It will be a long, long time before anything surpasses the F/A-22 in pure air to air combat. The F/A-22 has had so much research and development that it will take decades for anyone to be able to surpass it, even the US.

F/A-22 Has a combination of Research partners it has the advantage of being Laced with the best R&D that the MOst Advance nation on earth has to offer!!. with the exception of EF2000, I still can't see any other AC SUrpassing that, YOu've got to admit the EF2000 is one of the top AC the EF2000 would be the FA-22 of Europe !!!

[solid]

http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/07464142021.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/04420676550.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/04420676551.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/04420676552.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/05782905270.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/05782905271.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/05782905272.jpg
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/07464142020.jpg

[Pathfinder-X]

dude can u translate it to english?? in case u didn't notice very few ppl on this forum can read chinese, and personally my chinese is very rusty, haven't study it in 9 years.

[Revival_786]

A little off topic, but you actually studied chinese? :)

[Pathfinder-X]

A little off topic, but you actually studied chinese? :)

hehehe..........im born in china and moved to canada when i was ten. and now im almost 19.

[WebMaster]

So your chinese?

Solid, any english translation available for this article?

Thanks!

[Pathfinder-X]

So your chinese?

Solid, any english translation available for this article?

Thanks!

ya im chinese. i can translate this thing but it'll take me ages cuz my rusty chinese reading skills

[adsH]

So your chinese?

Solid, any english translation available for this article?

Thanks!

ya im chinese. i can translate this thing but it'll take me ages cuz my rusty chinese reading skills

Same thing happend when i attempted to read and translate an article from Urdu (which i found hardly worth translating as most of the articles comes with Part English translation) lol ie..... i know what you mean PathFinder!!! GOOD LUCK WITH THE TRANSLATION!!!

[solid]

hehehe .....Pathfinder-X. your chinese reading skill is rusty, and my english expressing ability is aslo very poor. I will try to translate some key informations later. This article mentioned some weakness of FC-1's prototype.

[adsH]

hehehe .....Pathfinder-X. your chinese reading skill is rusty, and my english expressing ability is aslo very poor. I will try to translate some key informations later. This article mentioned some weakness of FC-1's prototype.

YOu now have my UNdivided attention !!!
:D

I really wan't to know what its Weakness are!!! :mad

[solid]

1. the pilot's eyeshot(visual field) is similar to J-7, can't compare with F16 and F15, for the fc1's pilot only has his head coverd by glass cockpit and f16 or f15's pilot has almost 1/3 of body coverd by bubble canopy. It's hard to believe this kind of thing happened in a fighter. For this reason, pilot can't get enough SA(situation awareness) in combat(esp when he have to dogfight).

[solid]

2.why did the designer decide to use computerised digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system after the detailed design was completed. The writer has doubts about the efficiency of FC-1's FCS(fly control system).

[solid]

3. Internal Fuel Weight / (Internal Fuel Weight+Empty Weight)
=2268KG / (2268KG+6411KG) = 0.26
this low value of fuel/(fuel+empty) ratio limit the FC-1's range.
reference: the value of this ratio of early type mig29 is 0.27, and its range
with max internal fuel is 1700km.

[solid]

4. (Max Takeoff weight - Operating weight empty) / Operating weight empty = 0.89
reference:
mig-23: 0.81
F-4E: 0.94
early type mig-29: 1.22
f-15 and F-16: above 1.4
Obviously, the FC-1 is constructed from a very low percentage of composite material. This will limit her max weapon load weight.

[solid]

5.There were two blade props on the first prototype's wing. But after flight-testing, the test pilot found that it's unnecessary to add blade props on the wing. So this design has been canceled on the third prototype.

In flight-testing of the first prototype, we noticed that the empennage had been setted a big default angle when it took off. It seems like this prototype doesn't have the enough moment of a force to put up the nose.
So the empennage needs a big default angle to help the whole craft take off. We also noticed this default angle became smaller in the third prototype when he take off. I hope this problem which probably caused by design can be finally solved.

[solid]

6.about weapon
air to air weapon can be used by FC-1:
short range: aim9L/9M, Python3/4, PL7/9, R73
mid range: aim7, R27, Derby, R77, V4, SD10

air to ground weapon:
57mm, 90mm rocket launcher, unguided bomb,AGM65(have doubt), laser guided bomb (have doubt)

FC-1 isn't a real multi-role fighter if it lacks better air to ground weapons.
Pak can buy advanced AtoG weapon from Russia and Israel. But both of them are not credible weapon provider. There has similar misgivings on the supply of engine(RD93).

In the last part, the writer give CAC some solving ways, including persuade(or attract) PLAA to purchase this aircraft in mass quantities.

[Pathfinder-X]

i don't think PLAAF will be buying FC-1s, it is no match for the lastest russian or western fighters lk JSF and EF2000. im thinking PLAAF will equip J-10A as low end fighter and J-XX(which JDW predicts will be in service b4 2015) as high end.

[solid]

im thinking PLAAF will equip J-10A as low end fighter
J-10A is a mid end fighter in China(think about how many J6,J7 PLAAF has)
FC-1 can replace these very old aircraft.
It's too expensive to use J-10A to replace them in mass quantities.

[Pathfinder-X]

J-10A is a mid end fighter in China(think about how many J6,J7 PLAAF has) FC-1 can replace these very old aircraft. It's too expensive to use J-10A to replace them in mass quantities.

china is sliming down its airforce, so no need for a large force. J-10A cost about 30mil a piece from one of the article i read, which is about 6 mil cheaper than a JSF. with the economic growth now, china should be able to afford several hundred of these jets.

[solid]

J-10A is a mid end fighter in China(think about how many J6,J7 PLAAF has) FC-1 can replace these very old aircraft. It's too expensive to use J-10A to replace them in mass quantities.

china is sliming down its airforce, so no need for a large force. J-10A cost about 30mil a piece from one of the article i read, which is about 6 mil cheaper than a JSF. with the economic growth now, china should be able to afford several hundred of these jets.
No, China is sliming down its (land)army ,enlarging Navy , maintaining the size of airforce and updating them

[solid]

In flight-testing of the first prototype, we noticed that the empennage had been setted a big default angle when it took off. It seems like this prototype doesn't have the enough moment of a force to put up the nose.
So the empennage needs a big default angle to help the whole craft take off. We also noticed this default angle became smaller in the third prototype when he take off. I hope this problem which probably caused by design can be finally solved.


haha, I got some news about this paragraph. The writer said "Maybe they put too much in the nose " in the article. And someone confirmed this guess on writer's(Fangfang) website. They added a heavy thing(about 500kg) in first prototype's nose.

[adsH]

In flight-testing of the first prototype, we noticed that the empennage had been setted a big default angle when it took off. It seems like this prototype doesn't have the enough moment of a force to put up the nose.
So the empennage needs a big default angle to help the whole craft take off. We also noticed this default angle became smaller in the third prototype when he take off. I hope this problem which probably caused by design can be finally solved.


haha, I got some news about this paragraph. The writer said "Maybe they put too much in the nose " in the article. And someone confirmed this guess on writer's(Fangfang) website. They added a heavy thing(about 500kg) in first prototype's nose.

One of those russian radars which are on the SU 30 !!! what are those called!!

Pak will use something Different they have Super griffo radar that has just finished development for the JF-17 so the JF-17 in service for PAF will be completely different !!! in-terms of Avionics radars and electronics.

[solid]

adsH,if you think it's a rader, you misunderstand my meaning.
I will explain this later. But, at first ,who can translate two professional words in English for me? Thanks!!!
The first word means the aircraft's pneumatic center is behind the barycenter , so the aircraft is steady when it's flying. F-7 and other 2nd-generation fighters belong to this kind of aircraft.
The sencond word means the aircraft's barycenter is behind the pneumatic center , so the aircraft is unstable when it's flying and this aircraft need a Fly-by-wire Control System help itself to become steady. Su-27 and other 3rd-generation fighters belong to this kind of aircraft.

[adsH]

adsH,if you think it's a rader, you misunderstand my meaning.
I will explain this later. But, at first ,who can translate two professional words in English for me? Thanks!!!
The first word means the aircraft's pneumatic center is behind the barycenter , so the aircraft is steady when it's flying. F-7 and other 2nd-generation fighters belong to this kind of aircraft.
The sencond word means the aircraft's barycenter is behind the pneumatic center , so the aircraft is unstable when it's flying and this aircraft need a Fly-by-wire Control System help itself to become steady. Su-27 and other 3rd-generation fighters belong to this kind of aircraft.

Ok lol i get, get yeah now i'm not an aeronautic person but i get the Fade picture now is that why they call these UNstable AirCrafts !!

[solid]

They call these AirCrafts UNstable directly?
ok,FC-1 is a unstable AirCraft(I mean its barycenter is behind the pneumatic center). And the engineer need time to program the software of FC-1's Fly-by-wire Control System, otherwise he can't fly.
Someone of CAC wanted the prototype can take off as soon as possible, because this can give PAF more confidence in JF17 project.(you know PAF is the investor, so .... ) But the software of Fly-by-wire Control System can't be completed so quickly. So they added a definite weight on the first prototype's nose(foreside) and its barycenter moved forward. Then it became a stable AirCraft. But in the flight-testing, they found the head was too heavy, so they setted a big default angle on empennage to help FC1 to take off.
In the third prototype's flight-testing, maybe the software was completed. So there is no need to add unnecessary heavy things in the nose(foreside) and the empennage cameback to normal.

[adsH]

They call these AirCrafts UNstable directly?
ok,FC-1 is a unstable AirCraft(I mean its barycenter is behind the pneumatic center). And the engineer need time to program the software of FC-1's Fly-by-wire Control System, otherwise he can't fly.
Someone of CAC wanted the prototype can take off as soon as possible, because this can give PAF more confidence in JF17 project.(you know PAF is the investor, so .... ) But the software of Fly-by-wire Control System can't be completed so quickly. So they added a definite weight on the first prototype's nose(foreside) and its barycenter moved forward. Then it became a stable AirCraft. But in the flight-testing, they find the head was too heavy, so they setted a big default angle on empennage to help FC1 to take off.
In the third prototype's flight-testing, maybe the software was completed. So there is no need to add unnecessary heavy things in the nose(foreside) and the empennage cameback to normal.

Great so every thing Turned out great !! thanx for all the details !!

Message to GF are yeah getting all this!!! :)

[SABRE]

I dont think that EF-2000 is any way closer to F/A-22. But there is one Jet that comes very close to F/A-22 & thats Russian S-37. How can Russians relax with F/A-22 they ve to do some thing. S-37 is also stealth like F/A-22. Flies almost at the same speed.

I ve got the pics of the jet I just dont know how to past it on his link.

[adsH]

I dont think that EF-2000 is any way closer to F/A-22. But there is one Jet that comes very close to F/A-22 & thats Russian S-37. How can Russians relax with F/A-22 they ve to do some thing. S-37 is also stealth like F/A-22. Flies almost at the same speed.

I ve got the pics of the jet I just dont know how to past it on his link.

THe EF 2000 might not be stealth but it was never intended to be Stealth the JSF was the main Stealth project the F 22 is not that much of a stealth it has aspects that are Stealthy but they are also ridiculously expensive. believe it or not the EF 2000 is better Value for money and i bet it would perform alot better than a Raptor. it is still the most Advance CFAC in production to date. I know the RAPTOR WHEN IT COMES into Production would push the EF2000 in its SHADow!!
BUt its a great effort with the BEst the UK and partners had. :D

EF2000 is Close to the Raptor (the ONly thing Raptor might have better is its deign apart from that our AC the EF2000 has better Avionics and radars i think!!) you must be referring to the JSF Joint Strike Fighter now thats a Gen ahead thats the Joint Venture were making the Wings COmponents and the some body parts and the Electrics and the Main Power plant for hovering around. :) this will be a Brillaint AC with Loads of suppliers from Different NAtions contributeing this will truely defeine the NEXT Gen of AC it will be CHeap and Brilliant.

[mysterious]

Man!! I can see just how much we all have squeezed this thread off the subject matter, so much so, that there aint anything significant left to discuss; and I can see people around here now talking about almost anything but the JF-17. :D

[adsH]

Man!! I can see just how much we all have squeezed this thread off the subject matter, so much so, that there aint anything significant left to discuss; and I can see people around here now talking about almost anything but the JF-17. :D
they have new thread where Solid is translating from the A chinese Mag article. you must of seen that post all the Problems that are and were on the JF-17.

I would recomend some ONe should Merge these two threads!!

[mysterious]

With this new 'wierd' article coming out on JF-17 (the interpretation of which is, I guess, only as good as the interpretor. Not to offend solid but like he said, he hasnt been in touch with Chinese much in the last 19 years or so); we need some expert advice/comments from GF (gary). I wonder where he is nowadays. :smokingc:

[Bravo]

JF17 vs F16 can some body compair both aircrafts
over and out :help

[adsH]

JF17 vs F16 can some body compair both aircrafts
over and out :help

Which Variant of F-16

[yutong chen]

JF-17 is better, F16 is too old.

[adsH]

JF-17 is better, F16 is too old.

Yutong wiyh all do respect F-16 have variants like the the 4th gen F-16u sold to UAE i doubt any Arab Country Including Israel has anything that comes close to the hightech sophistication that those $100 mill customized AC demonstrate if you compare the Pak F-16 Yeass the Block 15 are old but when Pak gets them upgraded with mLU to block 20 they will be orignal Block 50 spec makeing them alot more advance then the JF-17 the UAE has bought the best F-16 they have bought the Block 60 specially designed for UAE. not even the USAF has some/alot of the stuff on those 80 F-16u.

[gf0012-aust]

JF-17 is better, F16 is too old.

You're making claims about an aircraft that is untested, does not have a long development history and has a different mission profile.

To be blunt, give me the F16 with Israeli developed electronics over an untested airframe any day.

Thats not to say that the 17 is ineffective, but it does not have the development cycle, and certainly does not have the same flight characteristics of the F-16I.

The F-16 is far from being too old, to ignore the generational development and capability is clear folly.

[adsH]

JF-17 is better, F16 is too old.

You're making claims about an aircraft that is untested, does not have a long development history and has a different mission profile.

To be blunt, give me the F16 with Israeli developed electronics over an untested airframe any day.

Thats not to say that the 17 is ineffective, but it does not have the development cycle, and certainly does not have the same flight characteristics of the F-16I.

The F-16 is far from being too old, to ignore the generational development and capability is clear folly.

Traditionally i would accept the Israeli F16i being the best but i have to acknowledge the Fact that the F-16u the UAE 80 batch Block 60 are alot more advance !!! GF come mate those poor soles payed 100 mill a piece
Israelis have realy good EW suite i personally like israeli equipment they make some realy nice kit!!!

[gf0012-aust]

Traditionally i would accept the Israeli F16i being the best but i have to acknowledge the Fact that the F-16u the UAE 80 batch Block 60 are alot more advance !!! GF come mate those poor soles payed 100 mill a piece
Israelis have realy good EW suite i personally like israeli equipment they make some realy nice kit!!!

The Israelis edge is their weasel suite, something that the US has yet to develop as their viper platform requirements are different. The UAE 16's don't have access to the Israeli onboard protection suites (naturally). They may be the better non israeli export, but they aren't the better non US solution.

I'd argue that the Israeli F-16's are the best autonomous units available.

[adsH]

Traditionally i would accept the Israeli F16i being the best but i have to acknowledge the Fact that the F-16u the UAE 80 batch Block 60 are alot more advance !!! GF come mate those poor soles payed 100 mill a piece
Israelis have realy good EW suite i personally like israeli equipment they make some realy nice kit!!!

The Israelis edge is their weasel suite, something that the US has yet to develop as their viper platform requirements are different. The UAE 16's don't have access to the Israeli onboard protection suites (naturally). They may be the better non israeli export, but they aren't the better non US solution.

I'd argue that the Israeli F-16's are the best autonomous units available.

See Gf the thing that realy makes me wonder is why on earth did UAe pay so much for F-16 when they could of had any other AC like the Rafe from french the EF2000 from us, that have a clear edge over the Primitive F-16 design. certainly the Rafe from the french would of been a choice for the UAE as they operate a large Group of Mirage 2000-9 and have french logistics set up there.

[adsH]

Traditionally i would accept the Israeli F16i being the best but i have to acknowledge the Fact that the F-16u the UAE 80 batch Block 60 are alot more advance !!! GF come mate those poor soles payed 100 mill a piece
Israelis have realy good EW suite i personally like israeli equipment they make some realy nice kit!!!

The Israelis edge is their weasel suite, something that the US has yet to develop as their viper platform requirements are different. The UAE 16's don't have access to the Israeli onboard protection suites (naturally). They may be the better non israeli export, but they aren't the better non US solution.

I'd argue that the Israeli F-16's are the best autonomous units available.

GF who are we trying to "Fool" here everyone knows Israelis have access to all sort of US made Protection suites they would naturally have an edge over the US made suites They Practically know what to expect from the Opposing F-16 while on the other hand the US or the USAF has no idea what the Israelis use on bord there AC (apparently the Israelis don't even let the USAF see what use) thts the reason why i think the Saudis never opted for any more American AC that reason plus the reson Saudi is not usually allowed to Buy the top equipment and the top equipment they get is Usually down graded at horrendous prices. they are better off buying equipments from us we are alot more straight forward and forth comming when it comes to Handing over technology for Money like the Tornados.

[SABRE]

JF-17 are almost similar to F-16 Pakistan as. The one which U.S has r better than JF-17. Thats enough for any ones knowledge,, i think,,
Even Belgian version is better.

[adsH]

JF-17 are almost similar to F-16 Pakistan as. The one which U.S has r better than JF-17. Thats enough for any ones knowledge,, i think,,
Even Belgian version is better.

Block 15 are Old that is what pakistan has

the Belgium F-16 MLU blocks are the same AC as Pak but they have been updated they have all the new stuff that is found on the New F-16. An F-16 is alot more Maneuverable and has proven its self in Battle so you will have to wait and see what the JF-17 will do.

[Red aRRow]

[JF-17] (http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/index.html)

Go to the above URL, then click on >>>>Aircraft>>>>>>PakDef Special: Q & A with Gp Captain Khalid Mehmood, Project Director Avionics, JF-17 Project, PAF.

[mysterious]

Interesting interview there. I think JF-17 would prove to be a huge success if everything goes along nicely 'n' smoothly. I would be glad if Gf read the interview and posted his view on the issue. :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

The GC doesn't give too much away. I still think that Pakistans single largest vulnerability is in forward control of its offensive assets. AWACs is a critical link in the ability to anticipate and reduce fluid exposure issues.

The aircraft mix is capable, and I wouldn't dismiss the lethality of PAF Mirage ROSES or F-16's against non vectored enemy aircraft.

The issue of LR sight and it's associated vectoring capability is the very thing that can cause an imbalance. In real terms, PAF movements can be seen without leaving national borders, and that changes the matrix. It's a variation of the OTHR system, but in a fluid package.

Eyrie and data linked assets becomes the priority. If you can't get AWACs then maybe you should be getting your chinese mates to provide you with surface wave radar etc...

[mysterious]

Yup! Thats what'll have to be done if we dont get the ERIEYE from the Swedes!! :smokingc:

[adsH]

Yup! Thats what'll have to be done if we dont get the ERIEYE from the Swedes!! :smokingc:

WOW WO WAH!! PAF is geting An AWAC !! it's like when a Kid gets a new toy on the Block every kid wants one and some of them can't get one, but some of them want its so bad that they would do anything to get one i think PAF will end up getting one even if its not the best one!!

[mysterious]

Bad example adsh! You cant compare Indo-Pak scenario with 'that'!! And yeah, dont worry, we will get an AWACS one way or the other! :smokingc:

[SABRE]

have v got any response from sweden on ERIEYE & also has there been any response on AWACS

[adsH]

have v got any response from sweden on ERIEYE & also has there been any response on AWACS

No not at the moment i think Pak is still waiting for the decsion the US has to make lets see if June 30th, we get a response it sounds like an exchange that when the Iraqi governing council gains power the UN comes inn along with its peace keeping Troops (they could be Pakistani) and the pakistani decsion is anounced i can bet Pakistan has two Part shoping list if this happens then this is our list A and if that happens this is our list B, /// chose either one of them dependent on the US decision.
Decision A Go for American EQt all of it!!!(if permited..
Decsion B Go for French and european Eqt all of it!! (guaranteed but expensive!!

[mysterious]

Pakistan is moreover waiting for the november US elections because it doesnt want to take any chances. The Pakistanis are playing with the US this time like the US has done on earlier occasions. :smokingc:

[SABRE]

since we r talking about Pak troops being sent to iraq, in this contex i ve also herd that if Pak troops r sent there PAF will get its bedge of F-16. Since block 15 are no longer in production PAk might get better versions. In an other new about 5 months ago I herd on GEO news that USA is considering to give Pak its F-16s at the end of this year (B4 US elections).
I think if Pak does send its army o Iraq PAk will be viwing more military equipments than just the F-16.
USA is also willing to sale its F-15s during 2008 period as they would be replaced by FA-22. It would be great if Pak some how gets a deal on F-15s.
Imagine F-16 in he lead with F-15 as wing fighter & JF-17 wing fighter to the F-15. Highly unlikely but PAK should try for it.

[adsH]

since we r talking about Pak troops being sent to iraq, in this contex i ve also herd that if Pak troops r sent there PAF will get its bedge of F-16. Since block 15 are no longer in production PAk might get better versions. In an other new about 5 months ago I herd on GEO news that USA is considering to give Pak its F-16s at the end of this year (B4 US elections).
I think if Pak does send its army o Iraq PAk will be viwing more military equipments than just the F-16.
USA is also willing to sale its F-15s during 2008 period as they would be replaced by FA-22. It would be great if Pak some how gets a deal on F-15s.
Imagine F-16 in he lead with F-15 as wing fighter & JF-17 wing fighter to the F-15. Highly unlikely but PAK should try for it.

i doubt the USAF is getting rid of there F-15E variants ANY TIME SOON!! and this will casue too much stress on PAF logistics

[mysterious]

Sabar, no offence, but I thought you could make your post just a little more responsibly put. F-15s and F-16s from the US? Man! Are you telling me Musharraf has become to US what Ariel Sharon is? :D

[adsH]

forget politics here. F-15 is not a good option here the whole point of the F-16 is to save cost on induction and its logistical cost. its common sense Pak won't buy obsolete weapons that could cost Billions to INduct and then there life time would be short, Just to train on F-15 would take a long time the F-16 is the cheapest and best option!!! :D

[SABRE]

Talking about absolete, wouldnt F-16 becom absolete in few years. It has already been 30+ years for F-16 in the service. USAF certainly would be insisting on replacing them with some thing better as well.
Even Russia has developed SU series over its MiG-29 also 30+ years in the service.

What r v going 2 do once F-16 become absolete. Ground them like Sabres

[gf0012-aust]

It's not age that counts, it's capability and airframe strength. The US has a SLEP in place for the B-52 which will see them in service till 2050. That means that they will have served for 90 years!

The F-16 is no way ready for pasturing. It's got quite a few years left yet.

[adsH]

F-16 were built to last they're rugged and cheap in a matter of Speaking Low Maintenance!! Hey ! GF i have a question the AirFrame is Tested and then a Life time is determined rite so technically all the Life time for the frames are either predicted through stress testing or just experience that they(designers) have gained by useing similar material is this True?.

I still think the F-15 If PAF ever Got them would be a waste of already limited resource, F-15 are much more HIgher maintenance, and the Pilots would require extensive conversion training and Familiarization courses for them!!!

Saber I Think the F-15 are going out of Production but F-16 have just been Redesigned in essence the New F-16I, U, S variants are new AC this platform is too goood to Dispose!!! Pak is looking to get an MLU's for there exsisting F-16 that should IMprove the Aircrafts Structural defects and any Micro fractures or something in the AirFrame, the MLU would also Update Avionic systems and the Radar, i think after teh MLU for the 28 OF those Plus 12 more Addition with MLU should form a good Air defence but i still think PAF is Still trying to get more the Idea was was to get 70-80 more F-16.

[mysterious]

To this day, F-16 has been the most successful aircraft with its survivability, experience in warfare and other things. As far as I'm concerned, if there ever was an aircraft that could be relied up on any given time and granted the most worthy of flying, it would be the F-16!! :smokingc:

[edisonone]

What do you guys think. The following spec of the FC-1 was published many a time. Do you guys think that this spec has been deliberately published as it is, so that other nations mainly rivals to Pakistan and China feel no threat so would not interfere. Hence the genuine spec has not been published until the fighter goes into production or even test phase.

Well what are your thoughts, here is the spec published:

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5

I believe the fighter would be able to build up much more velocity than mach 1.6 (some reports say, it can produce speeds of upto mach 1.7 and 1.8)

My opinion on specifications given of FC-1:

Figures and specifications reported "by either western or Chinese
sources" has always been a conservative one when it comes to Chinese items while the perception
of western goods is always deemed as dramtically more advanced.

But, latest from these people, IMO, is no small potato.

[gf0012-aust]

Figures and specifications reported "by either western or Chinese sources" has always been a conservative one when it comes to Chinese items while the perception of western goods is always deemed as dramtically more advanced.

But, latest from these people, IMO, is no small potato.

Actually, I'd argue that western stats are understated. In fact, the majority of info that on new generation systems is never officially released in exactitude for obvious reasons.

The majority of info you see on FAS, Global Security is scraped data, with all its attendant weaknesses.

Janes (the bastion of exactitude) has been used a number of times by defence forces to release padded data. It's happened in both world wars, the 60,70,80's and I have no doubt still occurs. The most famous being the incident of the battleship stats. It helped to bugger up Germanies pre-wartime production.

The rule of thumb is to take anything you see as coming from a reliable source as immediately being suspect.

As for China. I stand by the fact that a country that copies technology does not have the same level of sophistication as a country that designs it from the outset. That is a different issue from a country that finesses an existing platform (such as the Su-27). Finessing is not the same as development. They have not been in the development curve for long, and as such their work has to be considered on that basis. BUT as a first time unit, it serves a purpose, much the same as the T-98 derivative. I think China is at least half a generation away from doing something that can be seen as unique and praiseworthy (from a creation perspective).

The west has made some duds, but they have historical knowledge, and legacy skills which assist in reconstructing etc...

The Chinese aircraft is noteworthy for a first attempt, but it's value will only be determined as part of a process where fighter pilot skill, aircraft robustness, weaps loadouts, management systems etc are tested in a hostile environment. China has NO dissimilar combat training, so it is vulnerable in the sense that no integrity or sanity checking has been done on systems in a completely isolated fashion. To use its nemesis India as an example, India has DACT in place, trains with Russian frontline units, has trained against US forces since 2002, has trained against UK fleet assets, trained with Singapore forces. China has had a goodwill "show and tell" tour by the French - which is certainly not DC training.

5-10 years time it will be a different response from me. Not now.

[mysterious]

The problem with China has been that it hasnt interacted with the outer world properly. It is doing it now and we can already see how much influence China is already exercising. Of course everything needs time and likewise, China needs time to modernise its forces and learn everything that it needs to, to be able to stand up to a better foe! No one can shy away from the fact that Chinese are one of the most hardworking people on this planet and given their will and determination, I think a century's work can be achieved in a couple of decades! :smokingc:

[SABRE]

Are J-10 & JF-17 equipped with any Israeli technology.

[gf0012-aust]

Are J-10 & JF-17 equipped with any Israeli technology.

I think one could safely say that there is a high degree of Israeli input into the J-10.

China has been rather keen to take advantage of Israeli expertise in EW and missile development as well.

[adsH]

China has a new Generation Of Aeronautics industry propping up it's growing if you looks at all the litle Companies that are springing up!! Some specialize in Designs and some in other sub system i would say one day they may be able to compete with the rest of the world but what i always say Two minds are better then one! the West works together, China stands Alone!! but then agian chinese are a billion pop nation they should have diversity but the problem is that poverty gap keeps getting bigger and bigger amongst poor and favored rich (a common problem in Capitalistic nation) that would surely hinder progress at its grass roots!~! another reason for this may be Large scale management of the HUge human resource, Managing 1 billion people is not very easy there are bound to be loosers!! in Software we say if you can't Handle it break it up, so we do just that we break up the Task in sub components specialize each sub system create Cohesion and limit complications :)

[SABRE]

When question both Pak & Chian ignore is that "can Jf-17 carry nuclear wapon or WMD?

To me it seems highly unlikely. China's major interest as we all know lies in J-10 not in JF-17. China would no doubt replace its mig 19 & 21 inventory with JF-17. Mig 19 & 21 are not capable of carrying WMD & are not supose to, this signifies that their replacement (JF-17) too would not be able to carry WMD. As J-10 would be replacing SU-27 (capable for carrying WMD)from its Sqdn Leader's position, it is highly possible of we can say it for certain that J-10 would be able to carry WMD.

So what do you people think of JF-17 carrying WMD?

[adsH]

I personally think WMD with pilot ie living componets in the Carrier is not a good Idea and i doubt pak would now Use and take a risk loosing Pilots just to fulfill the role of a guidance computers. Why use such crude methods when you have a sophisticated Short and medium, one and two stage separation BM Capability. i know there are advantages with pilot assisted delivery, but its not a morale booster for the pilot!!! and you know why. Would PAK Waste a Pilot and an AC Just to save cost on a guidance computer and BM that they make in Pak worth less then 50-100 million dollars, I doubt they will use any of there Air Craft asset for this crude Business since some of the Pakistani BM delivery systems are now in serial production, JF-17 even if it were capable of delivery would not be a choice of delivery its max mach spead is slow can get shot down by faster interceptors and can also get shot down by SAM system, its a defending/support and tech gap filler, AC with limited abilities to say the least. F-16 are faster more suited but i doubt Pak would use them instead of Shaheen 2, Pak's Long rage 2 stage Delivery system. it won't make any sense not to use Shaheen in the event of Nuke war, Think Sabre before you say such thing People are still stuck in the past Pak wanted to use F-16 in the past because it did not have delivery mechanisms in place, thats the reason why US embargoed the rest of the F-16 and now they are considering releasing new one becasue Pak will not sacrifice an AC and a Pilot worth alot more then a BM, and simply becasue an AC would have a higher chance of being intercepted and destroyed then a BM.

[SABRE]

to some extent i can say u r right adsH but fighter jets are not suppose to carry WMD from one country to another. They r for defencive purpose. Supose if ,God forbid, Indian army crosses into Pak & occupies entire Sialkot region, our defence has been completely destroyed in East Punjab region & only way to remove Indian army is to airial bombing which will take lot of money. Ur last alternative is to Nuke them. Now will u use LArge scale Warhead like Ghuri & Shahee (Hatf) on ur own ground. These mossiles dont come cheep. Such situtation can only be handled through a Jet fighter which can carry Warhead size of football.

U cant waist million rupees Warhead on samll scale destruction u need cheap samll football sized warheads which can only be carried by Jets.

[adsH]

And hence Pak is makeing Plutonium Nukes now more compact and i think alot safer to handle. But I doubt Pak Army is so Daft that they would allow there Missiles to get captured and Ariel bombed those are hidden Systems and India would not dare to take pver an inch of the terotery becasue it can't determine that all the nukes have been destroyed or captured in one go specially looking at the Slugish movemets of teh INdian Army i doubt they can catch up with a Kid running on a streat(Joke No offence to my Indian friends) but the Fact is that India has to reform and is removing its military to Be more responsive restructuring to Enhace its effectiveness and Improveing traing to be more leathal and Upgradeing its hardware to be affective. but i doubt any country on earth can make sure that all Nuke targets have been neutralized in the first go becasue there is bound to be retaliatory measure!!, Aircrafts are not efficent they have limted manuverabilty they have a Living pilot and they have a max mach of 2 compare that with new INdian sams high manuvrability High mach probably at mach 4 essentially its expendiable relative to a AC with a Fully trained F-16 Pilot. there is no reason to send a F-16 with some of the best pilots if Shaheen can do the job and do it 2X better, Front line is not the Only place where Nuke assets are deployed Pak Capbility is of over 1500+km which give them an advantage to placeing there nukes anywhere in pak and still deploy it effectively against India.

Ok now lets consider if Pak placed all its defenses the Nukes on its Eastern border
India Intruded and tried to capture them they would first have to neutralize the Pak PAF Assets and then Neutralize the Armed Forces and then they would have to neutralize the Ground armored divisions defending the Missile.

[mysterious]

Saber my friend, Chinese may only be 'mad' to replace their J-11s with J-10s!! :D J-11s are Russian Su-27s and they are at par with or more superior to J-10s. I dont see them getting replaced at all. China's J-6 fleet is almost 1000 aircraft which is a burden on its airforce as they have become obselete (highlightened by the fact that Pakistan retired them last year). They need replacing majorly and I can say with a good gut feeling that they will be replaced by JF-17s (FC-1) no matter how much Chinese deny it right now, 'cuz I dont see them going for any other option to replace those oldies (J-6s). Secondly, your analysis of Ghauris and Shaheens being used on the Indian Army in the event of a major threat to Pakistan's soveriegnty is false because they are IRMBs and only intended for military/civilian targets deep inside Indian territory. The Ghaznavi and Abdali are BRBMs (battlefield range) and they are capable of unconventional warheads (and they dont cost as much as the Ghauri or the Shaheen missile) so they are most likely to be used. For adsh, no one knows where Pakistan 'actually' stores its nuke arsenal or the ballistic missiles (specially the Ghauris and Shaheens), they are all assumed stories made up by well known analysts to give some kind of info to others based on differing evidence. So, at best, they are predictions and I dont think the Indians would be relying too much on them. :smokingc:

[SABRE]

I m sorry adsh u still havent understood what i m trying to say (though i my self m bad in explaining things). any ways most of the things you say are correct to logic. I ve got this artical from some defence mag. in which the author (a pilot) explains why countries still need Jets to carry WMD. I ve misplaces the artical, i'll paste it on the link when I get hold of it so u can understand what I m trying to say here.

& mysterious, i m not saying that J-10 is going to replace SU-27 by retiring it, but by removing it from the lead of Sqdn leader's position. Chines need a Jet of their own which is better than SU-27, to which they have no restrictions on sales & manufacturing & are not bounded to any other country for that Jet. They want their Jets to lead their Airforce. If J-10 is not capable of replacing SU-27 than it certainly is the 1st step to remove SU-27 from the lead.
Why else would Chines test J-10 against SU-27 in a dog fight?

[SABRE]

& yes mysterious, atleast we both agree on 1 thing. China is going to replace its oldies with JF-17 no matter what they say

[gf0012-aust]

Why else would Chines test J-10 against SU-27 in a dog fight?


Their principle military opponent uses russian aircraft... it's the closest thing they can do to undertake DACT.

[darklegent]

Saber all that comes to my mind is that the Jf-17 was made primary built for Pakistan with India in mind in the 1990 with technological upgradations of say 20 years in mind (plz do not get the Su-30s and AWACs in the picture). the J-10 were made with Taiwan and their allies USA in mind. the Jf-17 is more of a soviet / russian school of design. The J-10 uses a more Western approach, afterall we all know that it was built upon the Lavi to Chinese tactical requirements.
The Chinese will replace all their crap outdated sh*t Mig 21 and Mig-19 copies with a up to date Superb fighterjet - the J-10. The jf-17 does not fit into the present requirement.
Another issue that we shud put our thoughts to is that the Jf-17 compares to the F-16 where as the J-10 compares BETTER to the F-16 and the F-18. When these two are mentioned it means that the j-10 was always meant to take on the american land based and carrier based aircraft. I would personally not risk putting in the jf-17 in a BVR or dogfight with either of those american birds. But against the Indian airfoce (plz do not get the Su-30s and AWACs in the picture) well that would be another story.

[mysterious]

Yup, the Chinese know that Indian Airforce is just another Russian Airforce wing (atleast in the aircraft inventory department). :D

[gf0012-aust]

Yup, the Chinese know that Indian Airforce is just another Russian Airforce wing (atleast in the aircraft inventory department). :D

well, except for the fact that they also have a high proportion of french aircraft as well.... IIRC their nuclear strike aircraft are all french.

[adsH]

GF why are we even talking about nukes on AC. i personally think its a Flaud IDEA!! wouldn't the Pilot dye when he deploys the wepons on the Gound i doubt he would be able to run away from the Blast Radius that quickly. i relay don't wan't to see Brave well trained pilots risking ther live for such an Idiotic role when there are BM do the JOb and alot better, wouldn't you agree.

[gf0012-aust]

GF why are we even talking about nukes on AC. i personally think its a Flaud IDEA!! wouldn't the Pilot dye when he deploys the wepons on the Gound i doubt he would be able to run away from the Blast Radius that quickly. i relay don't wan't to see Brave well trained pilots risking ther live for such an Idiotic role when there are BM do the JOb and alot better, wouldn't you agree.

Nope, a fast moving jet aircraft can be well out of the way of a nuke after deployment. Plus the aircraft used are typically shielded.

Any pilot who wants to hang around after the event would be slightly crazy.

There are also a number of tactical reasons why you would use an aircraft for delivery over a ballistic missile.

[SABRE]

Saber all that comes to my mind is that the Jf-17 was made primary built for Pakistan with India in mind in the 1990 with technological upgradations of say 20 years in mind (plz do not get the Su-30s and AWACs in the picture). the J-10 were made with Taiwan and their allies USA in mind. the Jf-17 is more of a soviet / russian school of design. The J-10 uses a more Western approach, afterall we all know that it was built upon the Lavi to Chinese tactical requirements.
The Chinese will replace all their crap outdated sh*t Mig 21 and Mig-19 copies with a up to date Superb fighterjet - the J-10. The jf-17 does not fit into the present requirement.
Another issue that we shud put our thoughts to is that the Jf-17 compares to the F-16 where as the J-10 compares BETTER to the F-16 and the F-18. When these two are mentioned it means that the j-10 was always meant to take on the american land based and carrier based aircraft. I would personally not risk putting in the jf-17 in a BVR or dogfight with either of those american birds. But against the Indian airfoce (plz do not get the Su-30s and AWACs in the picture) well that would be another story.

J-10 to replace all the MiG-19, 21 & other oldies......Think of the finance & strategies. One jet for Attack & defence purpose. Come on..if it is so than JF-17 being equal to F-16s v have, PAF should get rid of all the Jets & bring in JF-17. J-10 is better than F-16 & maY be similar F-18 but China cant repalce it with its other jets.

"Their principle military opponent uses russian aircraft... it's the closest thing they can do to undertake DACT. "gf0012

Well gf0012 thank..u give me another reson for why China is going for J-10. Think if China goes to war with this friendof Russia's. Russia promises to suport its friend rather than China, then whome would China turn to. They cant turn to Pak for technical help, specially in the air defence. So they make J-10 equall to SU-27. If their supply stops on SU-27 China still has J-10 to take care of things.

[adsH]

GF why are we even talking about nukes on AC. i personally think its a Flaud IDEA!! wouldn't the Pilot dye when he deploys the wepons on the Gound i doubt he would be able to run away from the Blast Radius that quickly. i relay don't wan't to see Brave well trained pilots risking ther live for such an Idiotic role when there are BM do the JOb and alot better, wouldn't you agree.

Nope, a fast moving jet aircraft can be well out of the way of a nuke after deployment. Plus the aircraft used are typically shielded.

Any pilot who wants to hang around after the event would be slightly crazy.

There are also a number of tactical reasons why you would use an aircraft for delivery over a ballistic missile.

is that becasue you have the element of sunrise first strike is more efficient!! i guess so but now inDia has Those AWACS a good Anti AC SAM system Fast Interceptors and HEll lot of security. they would be able to identify a Fast Mach Object Probably an F-16 Flying at any level and they would-know what that F-16 is for!! SCARRYY !!! :(

[P.A.F]

NOT UNLESS WE SHOOT IT DOWN :) ONLY JOKING.

[darklegent]

Yes Saber the chinese will replace the migs with the j-10. China is slowly moving to becoming a economic power with a surplus of more then a $100 billion trade surplus (plz look up the American trade statistics for more details). The other reason is that if they were to use those outdated migs against the present American Airfleet the chinese pilots wud be chow-mein. :D .

As of the nuclear bomb being dropped and the pilot being caught in the shock wave of the blast...... there are something known as stand off missiles which glide on their own wing span before ignition of the rocket motor. This increase the range of the delivery weapon. But then that is another issue of discussion.

[adsH]

Yes Saber the chinese will replace the migs with the j-10. China is slowly moving to becoming a economic power with a surplus of more then a $100 billion trade surplus (plz look up the American trade statistics for more details). The other reason is that if they were to use those outdated migs against the present American Airfleet the chinese pilots wud be chow-mein. :D .

As of the nuclear bomb being dropped and the pilot being caught in the shock wave of the blast...... there are something known as stand off missiles which glide on their own wing span before ignition of the rocket motor. This increase the range of the delivery weapon. But then that is another issue of discussion.

I know what a glide missile is but the question is not of; would you be able to fit a ton weighted tactical nuclear warhead in one stand off glid bomd, but will it fly !!, you could celotape it onn tie with ropes and then add couple of booster rockects make it lift to the range(being very sarc here sorry )
But there is another question even if you are succesfull in delivering and deploying one or for the matter lets say 20 pluss warhead at one given time assuming the AC's don't get shot down. but how would you ensure that india would not reciprocate,for that you would have to use all your other Resources those are your BM but then those poor Mach 2 jets would be outrunned by mach 4 Incomming BM !! wouldn't they. assumeing you would like to give your opponent very litle time to react !! crude but logical thinking

[SABRE]

Only time can tell if China is going to replace Mig 19 & 21 with J-10. We will have to wait & c. But I dont think that China is going to replace MiG 19 & 21 with J-10, JF-17 is still on their list. B4 Pak made deal for JF-17 with Chian, USA was a partner it with China. This definitly proves that China was interested in JF-17 (FC-1), Pak was not on their minds than. It was for them. So now why would they want to back off.


Anyways Talking of Pilots not making it back after dropping off the "Nukes".

American Pilots dropped Nuke on Japan & Return to base (RTB) safely in the WW2. They werent even flying a Jet fighter measured to the speed of todays fighter & their planes couldnt even fly at higher altitude to protect tham selves. Heck they even almost brought back all their Wing men & intercepters back safely. So why is it today that Pilots would be in danger after dropping off Nukes. Todays technology makes it even much safer for pilots than it was in WW2.

[adsH]

saber you didn't read my argument correctly about first strike which has to be complete!! meaning you can't just deploy one on your enemy you have to deploy the whole Package that pak has like all the missiles to be effective or else India would reciprocate!! so when the poor pilots would be returning home the BM from pak would be commin in and you can't tell me BM are slower than AC!!

[gf0012-aust]

would you be able to fit a ton weighted tactical nuclear warhead in one stand off glid bomd, but will it fly !!, you could celotape it onn tie with ropes and then add couple of booster rockects make it lift to the range(being very sarc here sorry ).....

You'll find that those nations that were able to develop mini nukes did so because there are clear tactical advantages for some situations.

Why do you think that Israel, France, UK, US, Russia developed cruise deployable mini's? It's a lot easier to launch and take out a specific platform.

In the case of a fleet, the Russians knew that a ballistic missile would never be able to strike a CVN due to targeting and movement issues, so they went to supersonic air launched nukes in the hope of being able to swarm a fleet. Israel uses N tipped Popeyes on its Dolphins for a similar reason, if someone invades Israel, then as a Masada solution, they can launch an N tipped Popeye in retribution.

In the same logic set, it's also why the US dabbled with nuke tipped SAM's, a very effective weapon in a given situation.

Ballistics are useful in a limited scenario, they're a "goodnight" option with no failsafe option. As such they are terminal in more than one sense.

[adsH]

were assumeing that the Parties that use such weapons are responsible states like the Russians and the US, i doubt if you attack a pakistani army Brigade with such a weapon Pakistan would do nothing. (Pak is a small state with its capital in easy reach of the INdian forces) Pak would simply openly use nuke to it's max ability, and that would be larger scale Nukes they don't or are not known to poses Smaller yield nukes!! they would be compelled to reciprocate within the confines of there abilities!!, with the Development of such relatively Minor WMD you are opening a theater that only shows a Movie about "dooms day" any one Nuke exchanges at any level would bring all Pakistani and INdian Assets in use, GF i am tell you The Indian subcontinent is a ticking Bomb, they have very little self restraint or have shown very little self restraint when it has come to wars and them selves, Micro nukes are an invitation to dooms day even tho it may destroy a large scale localized target but it would still mean the opponent was nuked which would mean that the Opponent would morally be compelled to return the gesture

[gf0012-aust]

Both China and the US have wargamed a limited nuclear war, which is slightly disconcerting.

On the basis of the above, one would assume that the JF-10 at least would be considered for carrying.

[SABRE]

J-10 is going to carry Nuclear Wapons but only few would be upgraded to this feature. i read this few days ago on the net. JF-17 carrying Nuclear wapon is out of question alos from the same website.
I'll tell u the name of the website as soon i get hold of it again. I found it when i was serfing the net

[jokeen]

hello everyone!
i'm from china,and i also interested in the development of j-10
i have many pictures about j-10
if anybody likes,tell me e-mail,i'll send to you :)

[SABRE]

Welcome Jokeen our Chinese Friend. We too are big fans of J-10 & looking forward towards u to provide us latest news on J-10. Anyways do u have any thing on JF-17.

Anyways heres a good news. JF-17 finds a market along with K-8. Read :

Bangladesh Air Force is looking to modernise its fleet and is looking at various options, it is reported that both the K-8 and JF-17 are the main contenders in this race.
PAF is awaiting clearance from the US Authorities to transfer its up to 12 T-37s to Bangladesh Air Force.
(March 04)

Link: http://www.pakakhbar.com/military/airforce/main.html

Man we are providing what we make to what broke away from us. But the good news is JF-17 gets the market potential even before it is indcuted in two countries making it. Also the K-8 has started to get some recognition. Specially in UAE, Saudi Arabia, Egypt & now Bangladesh.

I ve also herd that French are also looking forward to the JF-17. Think they want to repalce their old mirrage 3 & 5. Lets c, hope & pray.
I know, dnt say it....France & JF-17? This is what I have herd, there is a possibility that few European countries may go for JF-17. French like solo pilot jets. Some African nations may also explore JF-17 market & most Russian dependent Asian nations currently using MiG 19 & 21 like Viatnam most probably will come for JF-17. North Korea for one I m sure will love to buy them.
India may also like these Jet but would be hasitent to ask for them & Pakistan & China would be hasitent to give it to them.

Pray that JF-17 get a big market. It will become a gold mine for Pakistan & China.

[P.A.F]

it will be hopfully. it is a milestone for pakistan and china and i'm sure it will surve use well. i've also heard that Chile are intrested in the JF-17 as well. lets just see what happens shall we. oohh and by the way Welcome Jokeen. hope you keep use updated on what you know about the j-10 and JF-17. ENJOY. ;)

[adsH]

this is got to be a joke france is interested in a fighter like this they may be interested in providing electronics for it. and become a partner in the program. but i doubt they want to induct these. ok North K is impossible the US would not allow such a deal!! and what would they pay Pak with (low quality Scuds). Bangladesh is a reality. and saudi are very interested. Eygypt may be coerced. Turkey has no need for these, Chile is a possible country. BUt the main thing which is good and very attractive is that Pak can offer these jets for 15 mill each i think that with French and western avionics included its amazing, A country that could not produce washing powder a decade ago can now produce high quality jets!! (no offense to my Pakistani Freinds). :)