JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[WebMaster]

The "upgrades for jf-17" topic was merged into this:

Here is the link to the post where it starts:

http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2227#2227

[The Watcher]

So when is next flight test for another prototype of jf17? Anybody?

[Londo Molari]

Nobody knows.

I think its pretty much complete as far as prototyping and testing goes. I think the radar still has to be finalized.

After the first public flight in September they announced that the first batch of 12 aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan in a year where they will under-go training. And serial production will begin in two years.

No more public flights I guess. We'll have to wait for delivery around next september.

[yutong chen]

FC-1 is probably in service, Chinese covers their military very well. By the time it goes public, the equipment is already old news inside the government.

[Majin-Vegeta]

i heard thier gonna be done by 2006, and start exporting and stuff..:S not sure tho.

[Munir]

Latest rumour is that the wingarea is going to increased. 33%. I have posted some pics a few weeks ago after doing some research... Just shed your light on it... Thanks

actual design
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/aaaaa.jpg

my design...
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/JF172.JPG
[/url]

[gf0012-aust]

If they want to increase lift then it would be better to have vaned canards, easier to do structurally and would noticeably change dogfighting ability (turn issues) also it would reduce take off and landing length.

A larger wing area will increase lift and be useful for sub 40,000 ft, but not much help above that. (IMO)

[Munir]

Canards are not only handy... I have seen several tests and the final plane never got it... Just think about AFTI F16 or the Dreyden F15... The problem with the JF17 is the very small area... The wing loading is to high... And if you look at the location then the tailwings are small and placed forward compared to later model F16... Besides that the main wing is extremely small... Just look careful at most landing pics or even ground pics... The tail is allways in the pushing upward position... There is some reason for that...

Cheers.

[gf0012-aust]

Canards are not only handy... I have seen several tests and the final plane never got it... Just think about AFTI F16 or the Dreyden F15... The problem with the JF17 is the very small area... The wing loading is to high... And if you look at the location then the tailwings are small and placed forward compared to later model F16... Besides that the main wing is extremely small... Just look careful at most landing pics or even ground pics... The tail is allways in the pushing upward position... There is some reason for that...

Cheers.

thats true, but the main issue is that by increasing the main wing area you are going to end up with an impact on:

chord ratio
fuselage barrel
a main wing rebuild

you could try blending the main wings into more of a chine, or you could look at redesigning the rear edge (as opposed to adding to the leading edge)

but, adding canards, incresing the surface area of the rear wings, blending or adding a larger chine may be easier than a main wing rebuild.

a main wing rebuild by increasing surface area will load more stress on the centre barrel.

[yutong chen]

Did you all know P-80 is still in Mexican Air Force!

[umair]

Did you all know P-80 is still in Mexican Air Force!

And how is that related to the JF-17? :? (no offence intended!)

[PAF GIRL]

If they want to increase lift then it would be better to have vaned canards, easier to do structurally and would noticeably change dogfighting ability (turn issues) also it would reduce take off and landing length.

A larger wing area will increase lift and be useful for sub 40,000 ft, but not much help above that. (IMO)

canards would be better plus they maybe easier to add and help the jet in intense dog fight manuveours.

[shamsi]

If they want to increase lift then it would be better to have vaned canards, easier to do structurally and would noticeably change dogfighting ability (turn issues) also it would reduce take off and landing length.

A larger wing area will increase lift and be useful for sub 40,000 ft, but not much help above that. (IMO)

canards would be better plus they maybe easier to add and help the jet in intense dog fight manuveours.

Easier to add? Oh how easy to assume! Perhaps duct tape and waxed string are used for riveting and FBW?

[elkaboingo]

depends which type of canard they are. if theyre the moving type (like eurofighter and other new planes) it will be expensive, but greatly increase the maneuvreablilty of the plane. if its the normal ones that cannot move, they are very easy to fit on.

[Red aRRow]

Just adding canards is a very difficult proposition. The whole aerodynamic structure of the plane will be completely altered. I think the canard thing should have been done in the design phase if ever. Just adding canards to a plane as an afterthought would be just that...an afterthought.

[gf0012-aust]

Just adding canards is a very difficult proposition. The whole aerodynamic structure of the plane will be completely altered. I think the canard thing should have been done in the design phase if ever. Just adding canards to a plane as an afterthought would be just that...an afterthought.


Agreed, there aren't too many that have been effectively retro fitted. The Israelis did it with the Nesher and Kfir Mirage derivatives, and that made a substantial performance difference.

Even the SU-34 looks like a retro fit that was hastily added. Awesome looking aircraft though.

Adding a conformal chine, or adding canards could be done, but the end cost/performance benefit ratio would have to make any govt accounting office get a little tense.

[darklegent]

I have to know one thing....plz reply to this query.
We all are aware that the Russians have denied the RD series of engine. What are the serial production version to fly with. Please friends I want the truth some kind of proof, not speculations.

[umair]

Well legent, that Russian denial thing is a HOAX one mostly finds on Indian(no offence intended) forums.The serial version will be powered by an uprated RD-93 engine producing 20,500 lbs of afterburning thrust.( HowI know this don't ask(jk)) ;)

[darklegent]

Facts was what I wanted. The Russian denial is a fact brother. I was interested to know if The M-53 or the M-88 or a Chinese engine was in the next choice for the serial production.

[Roger Smith]

When will PAF induct/receive JF-17 in its fleet?

[Roger Smith]

Do anyone know the cost price of JF-17 Fighter plane!!!!!!!!!! :?

My guess would be in the scale of $30 to $35 million per unit.

[ullu]

:eek :lolol

JF-17 isn't LCA you know thats taking long to make and eventually will cost more too. :P

The price is between $10 - 20 million.

:roll

:pak

[Indus]

:eek :lolol

JF-17 isn't LCA you know thats taking long to make and eventually will cost more too. :P

The price is between $10 - 20 million.

:roll

:pak

FC-1 (JF-17) is projected to cost around $15 million a piece.

Well LCA has taken longer since it is indigenous.. unlike FC-1 (JF-17) which is developed by CHina..not Pakistan. obviously China is more technically advanced.. although even the FC-1 has some Israeli influence in its development..

[Roger Smith]

:eek :lolol

JF-17 isn't LCA you know thats taking long to make and eventually will cost more too. :P

The price is between $10 - 20 million.

:roll

:pak


It is not possible, K-8 Jet Trainer is at $20 million per unit and JF-17 is a Fighter Plane, therefore the cost should be at least $30 million a unit.

[ullu]

K-8 isn't 20 million. I wouldn't just rely on paktribune for the price. :roll

[Londo Molari]

K-8 is somewhere between 2 and 8 million.... I think... not sure...I have no idea...

But the JF-17 is definitely $15 million

[Majin-Vegeta]

yes JF-17 is for bout 15 million dollars, i also saw this on Pakistani news from a site before :) and Pakistan is helping build the JF-17..so Pakistan has contributed alot.

[darklegent]

No offence but to what extend did Pakistan help TECHNICALLY in the FC-1. Please update me on the exact technical inputs from Pakistan only.

[Red aRRow]

Pakistan provided the basic know how of the F-16 into building the JF-17. The aircraft was jointly developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).
However the manufacture took place in China because Pakistan does not have an advanced industrial base which could have been utilized in the plane's manufacture.

[darklegent]

Pakistan provided the basic know how of the F-16 into building the JF-17. The aircraft was jointly developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).
However the manufacture took place in China because Pakistan does not have an advanced industrial base which could have been utilized in the plane's manufacture.

I was actually interested to know the TECHNICAL inputs.

[Bilal_Khan]

K-8 costs 4mn dollars a piece, JF-17 costs 15mn dollars a piece. LCA ain't indiginous as claimed, and it's projected unit cost is 22mn dollars a piece.

[gf0012-aust]

Pakistan provided the basic know how of the F-16 into building the JF-17. The aircraft was jointly developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).
However the manufacture took place in China because Pakistan does not have an advanced industrial base which could have been utilized in the plane's manufacture.

I was actually interested to know the TECHNICAL inputs.

I suspect you would be hard pressed to find out. When we work with the US on EW projects like NULKA we never advertise what they have bought to the table (which kind of narrows it down to their platform signatures) - but thats another story.

I would assume that all of that info is milspec secrecy bound (a bit like the Yakhont work with Russia I suppose)

[Red aRRow]

I agree with gf. Darklegent I cannot provide you with JF-17 blueprints in the same way that you cannot tell me the technical details of the LCA.

[Indus]

K-8 costs 4mn dollars a piece, JF-17 costs 15mn dollars a piece. LCA ain't indiginous as claimed, and it's projected unit cost is 22mn dollars a piece.


Bilal khan, what makes you think LCA is not indigenous.. It is in every sense of the word indigenous.. WHy dont you tell me what country is helping develop it with India.. and show me where it says that.. stop BSing.

If at all anything, FC-1 (JF-17) is not indigenous. It is joint project b/w
China and Pakistan.. With Pakistan financing 50% of the development cost.. The Chinese military websites nor any other defence consortiums say nothing about what pakistans involvement in the actual development/design of the aircraft.. I would guess China is on a totally different level.

LCA> http://globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lca.htm
"Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the Principal Partner in the design and fabrication of LCA and its integration leading to flight testing. The LCA has been designed and developed by a consortium of five aircraft research, design, production and product support organizations pooled by the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), under Department of Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Various international aircraft and system manufacturers are also participating in the program with supply of specific equipment, design consultancy and support. For example, GE Aircraft Engines provides the propulsion."

FC-1 (JF-17)> http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm
"As a fighter designed for export, its main customer is expected to be Pakistan who also shares 50% of the total cost ($150m so far)."
"A full-scale mock-up was soon constructed. 12 FC-1s may have been ordered by PAF and the first aircraft may be delivered in 2005, indicating the urgency of PAF's demand for a modern BVR figher. Some of the FC-1 production may eventually be transferred from CAC to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)."


Anyways. I have to say.. ~15mil a piece is a great deal for an aircraft such as the FC-1. Low price, good quality..

[Red aRRow]

Indus nobody was saying that JF-17 is indigenous!! :? :?

[Indus]

Pakistan provided the basic know how of the F-16 into building the JF-17. The aircraft was jointly developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).
However the manufacture took place in China because Pakistan does not have an advanced industrial base which could have been utilized in the plane's manufacture.

What part of the knowhow are you reffering to.. desing? etc..
so is the JF-17 based on the f-16.. Would it be considered a modified, better version of the F-16 or is it just an amalgam of different design ideas..

[umair]

Well Indus what does the "17" suggest? ;)

[Red aRRow]

Problem is that the JF-17 is still not "out" yet. So any comments being made are complete speculation. Pakistan was a part of the concept and designing phase of the aircraft with lots of input from Pakistani engineers who work on the F-16 perhaps. However as I already said the production will currently be taking place in China. Only over time the manufacturing base will be shifted to Pakistan.

[Revival_786]

The new pics of the JF-17 are beautiful ;)

[Roger Smith]

K-8 is somewhere between 2 and 8 million.... I think... not sure...I have no idea...

But the JF-17 is definitely $15 million


The Indian government to award a $1.7 billion contract to BAE Systems for 66 Hawk jet trainer airccraft. It means each Hawk cost $ 25.7 million each.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1035387,00.html

Therefore, the cost of K-8 jet trainer is $20 million each and JF-17 fighter plane should be at least $ 30 million each.

[WebMaster]

Roger Smith, how is Hawk trainer related to K-8 and how does price of hawk determine the price of K-8 and on top of that how does price of both of these trainers determine the price of JF-17 and what does price of K-8 or Hawk have to do with JF-17 topic? Could you please explain the secret behind this ridiculous logic? :? :(

[Indus]

K-8 is somewhere between 2 and 8 million.... I think... not sure...I have no idea...

But the JF-17 is definitely $15 million


The Indian government to award a $1.7 billion contract to BAE Systems for 66 Hawk jet trainer airccraft. It means each Hawk cost $ 25.7 million each.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1035387,00.html

Therefore, the cost of K-8 jet trainer is $20 million each and JF-17 fighter plane should be at least $ 30 million each.

Rogerji, maybe the total cost ($1.7 Billion) of the BAE Hawk trainers includes other things, services.. Yeah that would be funny if a Hawk trainer jet actually cost more than an FC-1 fighter.. but then again im not sure if that $15mil price tag is just optimistic projection.. we wont know until everything is completed i guess..

[Roger Smith]

Roger Smith, how is Hawk trainer related to K-8 and how does price of hawk determine the price of K-8 and on top of that how does price of both of these trainers determine the price of JF-17 and what does price of K-8 or Hawk have to do with JF-17 topic? Could you please explain the secret behind this ridiculous logic? :? :(

In response to your query on cost of K-8 and JF-17 related to Hawk trainers.

1) Aircraft manufacturing is a high cost industry due to R&D factor.
2) If the K-8 was costing at $4 million a unit, China could have flooded the International market and why PAF has only 6 units of K-8 in its inventory.
3) India just contracted to sell 2 ALH (helicopter) to Nepal at Rs. 300 million or $ 6.6 million a unit.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/02/mil-040211-irna01.htm
4) The cost of R&D on JF-17 or FC-1 has increased from $150 million to over $435 million. I will try to get the website.
5) PakTribune has clearly stated the cost of K-8 at $20 million per unit.
http://www.paktribune.com/exclusive/exclusivedetails.php?id=70

In conclusion, I feel K-8 cost is at $20 million a unit and JF-17 cost is at $30 million a unit.

[WebMaster]

Roger,

1st point, that means LCA would cost much more than $35 million as the price tag since it has taken over 2 decades from start of the project to whenever it enters service?

2nd point, countries acquire military equipment on basis of their REQUIREMENT not if a particular hardware is cheaper. Maybe price is a factor but requirement plays stronger role in this process. Moreover, most countries don't really reveal full numbers on their military equipment inventory. ;)

4th point, yes please post source of your information. Should be credible defence related source not local pakistani /indian defence forums, etc.

5th, paktribue isn't known for credibility on defence related news and reports. It could be mistake.

JF-17, HAWK, K-8, LCA are all different platforms, being developed for different under different requirement umbrella. Each crafts price reflects its abilities and labour put into it and cannot be used to determine price of others.

[Roger Smith]

4) The cost of R&D on JF-17 or FC-1 has increased from $150 million to over $435 million. I will try to get the website.

In conclusion, I feel K-20 cost is at $20 million a unit and JF-17 cost is at $30 million a unit.

I am herewith giving a link from a German source, which clearly state the cost of R&D on JF-17 is over $450 million.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRFC-1.htm

As to LCA, I assume India would not have spent more than $300 million on R&D in past 20 years. Delay has caused due to short of funds and further sanction by USA for not supplying engine of GE404 for LCA. Now India has developed with Russian assistance its own Kaveri power plant for LCA.

I still believe K-8 is at $20 million a unit and JF-17 would be around $30 million. China do give their products at cheaper price to some countries for political purposes.

[WebMaster]

R&D on JF-17 is over $450 million



India would not have spent more than $300 million on R&D in past 20 years


Pakistan in 10 years spends $450 million on JF-17 whos price as reported is $15 or so million whereas India in 20 years or so has spent only $300 million? :eek In 20 years, india couldnt spare enough funds for this project? This does not make sense. Its no logic.

Realities are far from what one believes or thinks. Certainly India would want that JF-17 is almost same price as LCA for market competition reasons. We (public in general) will believe figures as told by the government officials until something different is heard from the same sources or when these planes start selling.


Costs (Kosten)
Figures of 15 to 20 million Dollars were mentioned in mid-2003.
Development investment is said to be over 150 million US-Dollars, with Pakistan contributing some 75 million. Pakistani sources put the cost at 450 million US-Dollars, with the country contributing 50 to 60 per cent.

Which sources? It looks like magazine is trying to add a line or two to their cost table of JF-17 rather than listing some credible info by a credible source other than "pakistani sources."

Anyone can write it up unless its reconfirmed with statements that of the government and its officials actually saying it and only figure that matters is when the government says so and most of the time they don't tell the truth or its half-truth.

Price about K-8 is not confirmed so I can't really comment on it since your words against mine, mine against yours. As I said in my last reply: JF-17, HAWK, K-8, LCA are all different platforms, being developed for different under different requirement umbrella. Each crafts price reflects its abilities and labour put into it and cannot be used to determine price of others.

[Roger Smith]

I will reply to the point raised separately.

FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17: When this jv (joint venture) started the initial projected R&D cost forecasted was $150 million and it was supposed to be a low cost high tech figther plane between $10 to 15 million per unit.

As I have submitted a link, where the R&D cost has triple to $450 million coming from Pakistani sources.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRFC-1.htm

Naturally, China is going to charge cost of R&D to the buyers. This plane JF-17 will not be less than $30 million a unit.

HAL cost of LCA is $22 million per unit and the selling price to third party would be no less than $25 million per unit.

French Mirage 2000 is at $44 to 45 million per unit, India is planning to buy 100 unit.

Thank you for your attention.

[Roger Smith]

As to your query on trainer jet K-8 and BEA Hawk, both aircrafts are trainer jet.

K-8 is equally a good aircraft, except Hawk has extra role as Light attack aircraft, which India is paying $25 million per unit and $1.7 billion for 66 aircrafts.

Therefore to my judgement K-8 is good aircraft and is at $20 million a unit, for which Pakistan is unable to buy more due to shortage of funds factor.

Thank you for your attention.

[WebMaster]

Why do you continue to insist the same thing without even reading the points raised? I know what you said, please stop repeating it.


Which sources? It looks like magazine is trying to add a line or two to their cost table of JF-17 rather than listing some credible info by a credible source other than "pakistani sources."

Anyone can write it up unless its reconfirmed with statements that of the government and its officials actually saying it and only figure that matters is when the government says so and most of the time they don't tell the truth or its half-truth.


It looks like somehow you are trying to show that JF-17 is inferior along with expensive and that LCA is superior along with its inexpensive.

As I said before, and if you read:

JF-17, HAWK, K-8, LCA are all different platforms, being developed for different under different requirement umbrella. Each crafts price reflects its abilities and labour put into it and cannot be used to determine price of others.


Why are you throwing prices of fighter jets left and right in order to come up with price of JF-17 and K-8? You cannot use price of one aircraft to guess the price of another. That is NO logic, it does not make sense. Please stop trying.
Cost of labour in China is VERY different than cost of labor in UK and other EU countries. Thats why equipment coming out of China is less expensive than that coming from UK/EU!
They say JF-17 is based on F-16, with your logic the price of JF-17 should be same as F-16 when its not.
Plus, as Indus said the purchase of Hawk also includes services and other benefits that come with such deals. And its all included in that $1.6 Billion.


Pakistan in 10 years spends $450 million on JF-17 whos price as reported is $15 or so million whereas India in 20 years or so has spent only $300 million? In 20 years, india couldnt spare enough funds for this project? This does not make sense. Its no logic.

Realities are far from what one believes or thinks. Certainly India would want that JF-17 is almost same price as LCA for market competition reasons. We (public in general) will believe figures as told by the government officials until something different is heard from the same sources or when these planes start selling.


How is it possible that a country supposedly making 4th gen. jet spends only $300 million in 20 years and still boast that its superior aircraft whereas a country with limited funds spends $450 million on supposedly 3rd gen. plane in 10 or so years?

Don't repeat the same thing again (in your last reply you threw in Mirage too along with K-8, Hawk, and LCA just to determine the price of JF-17 :roll ), answer my questions.

[Roger Smith]

I am sorry if am confusing you.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology, so definately it is going to be a good fighter. I have provided my claims and sunstantiated with links/site to proof my point on cost factor.

LCA of HAL, it is basically Indian and Russian technology. I will provide the link/site in my next posting that it is costing the government $22 million per unit.

[P.A.F]

look. at the end of the day, in my point of view as well as other fellow pakistanis the bottom line is that FC-1/JF-17 is a little more better then the LCA. also at the end of the day it's down to the pilots and as many analysist say that not only are pakistani pilots better than indian pilots but are amongst the best in the world. :)

[Valkyrie]

Roger Smith, the FC-1 project can't possibly more than $150million because if it did, Pakistan won't be intrested in the project. Pakistan's share is roughly between 50-60% which was initially valued at $150million. So the entire deal is worth $300million or at the very most half a billion dollars.

The technology being used on the Fc-1 is not exactly state-of-art. The powerplant is a Klimov RD-93 which is essentially an updated Mig-29 engine. The avionics suite would European for Pakistan and something which is mostly bought off the shelf and installed into the Fc-1 with some modifications. The airframe will be made in China or even in Pakistan, which would mean cheaper manpower and lower production cost. The weapons such as the Sd-10 and the PL-9 are made in China with the SD-10 being a deriviative of the Italian Aspide. Most of the testing and initiall development would be done in China which has a huge aviation industry and an enormous production line would ensure the target dates are met.

The only hick up in the project was in 1998 when Pakistan was having funding problems which is no longer is an issue. If you consider that projects such as the Agosta subs, Al-khalid, F-7PGs, Fc-1 test flight and T-59 upgrades are being accomplished at a steady pace.

Lastly, my point being transfer of technology coupled with off the shelf purchases and low production cost means less R&D which ensures a lower cost of the project and the price per unit.
Cheers... :)

[Roger Smith]

Funny, first time an indian has ever admitted that the LCA is a flop.

However, the FC-1 I think is not a flop, and think it shall serve the Pakistani air force well.


I do not think LCA is a flop, but was not given a priority by the Indian government and is moving alright now with a number prototype LCA being tested.

[SABRE]

the cost revealed by government for defence technology is alway low so the public wont be a critic. Do u realy think an advanced 3rd Gen. Fighter would cos this low.

[mysterious]

Up-date for you people; Pakistan now has 12+ K-8 Trainers not 6!! There's been planning to get more. Plus; Pakistan would also begin making K-8z on its own probably this year as it plans to export it if orders are received at IDEAS 2004!

[Roger Smith]

Up-date for you people; Pakistan now has 12+ K-8 Trainers not 6!! There's been planning to get more. Plus; Pakistan would also begin making K-8z on its own probably this year as it plans to export it if orders are received at IDEAS 2004!

Mys........Do have a link to PAF K-8 inventory as well on your aforementioned statement? :?

Thanks. :smokingc:

[mysterious]

Well you'll hafta hold on to your horses for that a bit cuz I read this a few days back. I need to look up the link. Will post it as soon as I find it. :)

[darklegent]

Roger can you give me links to the technological inputs of the countries you mentioned in your post.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology

I did ask before for information on technolgical inputs and was told that it is a secret.

As quoted by gf0012 onFri Feb 13, 2004

I would assume that all of that info is milspec secrecy bound (a bit like the Yakhont work with Russia I suppose)

As quoted by shamayel Fri Feb 13, 2004

I agree with gf. Darklegent I cannot provide you with JF-17 blueprints in the same way that you cannot tell me the technical details of the LCA.



As regard to the LCA the technical information to sources of most, if not all systems and sub-systems is easliy availble on the net. I am not comparing the JF-17 to the LCA. All I want to Know is the inputs by ISREAL ,RUSSIA, CHINA and most of all PAKISTAN in the Pakistani version of this aircraft.

HELP REGARDING INFORMATION (espeacially urls) WILL BE HIGHLY APPERICIATED.

[Roger Smith]

Roger can you give me links to the technological inputs of the countries you mentioned in your post.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology

To best of my knowledge the technology input on JF-17 by the countries above stated are as follows;

Israel - None in JF-17 but J-10 copy of Levi.
Russia - Design based on MiG-31 and possibly engine.
Chinese - 80% indigenous.
Pakistan - JV cost sharing, no part in technology or R&D.

The aforementioned are my views.

[Admin edit: Quotes fixed. Try and fix your errors immed rather than one of us doing it]

[Valkyrie]

The FC-1 is being made for Pakistan. The project is given a higher priority by the Pakistanis rather than the Chinese who have devoted their efforts to the J-10. Pakistan being a major partner will definetly have some requirements and design inputs which have to be met by the Chinese. The R&D involved has been minimal.

[SABRE]

Few days ago I read that Chinese are as much intersted in CF-1/JF-17/Super-7 as are the Pakistanis. These Jets are specialy made smaller in size becaus not only will they cost lesser but they would be a hard target for bigger jets specialy SU-34,35,37 as it would be easier for JF-17 to dodge these Jets but it would still require two of them to shoot down atleast one of the SU series fighter - one to keep the SU busy other one to shoot it down -
while these jets can shoot down MiGs & F-16 though it wont be easy. But the main purpose I read that both countries are intersted in these jets are that they can counter almost all (about 84%) of the Indian Jets. Thats why Pakistan needs them badly but China will only be keeping them on the Air Fields near India.

[gf0012-aust]

Few days ago I read that Chinese are as much intersted in CF-1/JF-17/Super-7 as are the Pakistanis. These Jets are specialy made smaller in size becaus not only will they cost lesser but they would be a hard target for bigger jets specialy SU-34,35,37 as it would be easier for JF-17 to dodge these Jets but it would still require two of them to shoot down atleast one of the SU series fighter - one to keep the SU busy other one to shoot it down -
while these jets can shoot down MiGs & F-16 though it wont be easy. But the main purpose I read that both countries are intersted in these jets are that they can counter almost all (about 84%) of the Indian Jets. Thats why Pakistan needs them badly but China will only be keeping them on the Air Fields near India.

I'm not sure where you got your info from, but the Su-2x and the Su-3x can engage and prioritise 6-8 targets at once. The FCS determines the threat response sequence.

Its not size that determines survivability - in the scenario you paint it's RCS.

[umair]

Get u'r info right my friend saber.For what gf is saying is the truth about aerial engagements these days.
P.S new info:
Sextant Avionique Glass Cockpit.
Four channel FBW
HMD&S system coupled with a wide angle smart hud,3 large MFD(one colored),2 smaller ones for fuel flow and RWR display.
Sagem navigation and EW suite including a multiple spectrum airborne active jammer
% of composites being increased in construction.
Nice additions I must add. :smokingc:

[Roger Smith]

Roger can you give me links to the technological inputs of the countries you mentioned in your post.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology

To best of my knowledge the technology input on JF-17 by the countries above stated are as follows;

Israel - None in JF-17 but J-10 copy of Levi.
Russia - Design based on MiG-31 and possibly engine.
Chinese - 80% indigenous.
Pakistan - JV cost sharing, no part in technology or R&D.

The aforementioned are my views.

[Admin edit: Quotes fixed. Try and fix your errors immed rather than one of us doing it]


WebMaster

What you want me to change? :?

[WebMaster]

Well, you had the BBcodes all messed up. Just emphasising their proper use. ;) [ quote ] text [/ quote ] < quotes the text (without any spaces inside the brackets), etc.

[Roger Smith]

Well, you had the BBcodes all messed up. Just emphasising their proper use. ;) [ quote ] text [/ quote ] < quotes the text (without any spaces inside the brackets), etc.

I am still not with you. :?

You can PM to elaborate. :smokingc:

Thanks. ;)

[P.A.F]

well at the end of the day (if true that the FC-1 has no pakistani tech in it) then who cares because we did fund half of the project u know. and also no matter what technology the fc-1 has in it, it is still going to be part of the pakistani airforce (NOTE: it will be assembled in pakistan).
FINAL POINT: FC-1 is far more better than most of those fighters out there.

[Roger Smith]

well at the end of the day (if true that the FC-1 has no pakistani tech in it) then who cares because we did fund half of the project u know. and also no matter what technology the fc-1 has in it, it is still going to be part of the pakistani airforce (NOTE: it will be assembled in pakistan).
FINAL POINT: FC-1 is far more better than most of those fighters out there.

Well said, the end result is to obtain JF-17 for PAF. :smokingc:

On the assembling of JF-17 in Pakistan, it is very doubtful. The Chinese will keep a tight control on it like the K-8 jet trainer. :?

[mysterious]

well at the end of the day (if true that the FC-1 has no pakistani tech in it) then who cares because we did fund half of the project u know. and also no matter what technology the fc-1 has in it, it is still going to be part of the pakistani airforce (NOTE: it will be assembled in pakistan).
FINAL POINT: FC-1 is far more better than most of those fighters out there.

Well said, the end result is to obtain JF-17 for PAF. :smokingc:

On the assembling of JF-17 in Pakistan, it is very doubtful. The Chinese will keep a tight control on it like the K-8 jet trainer. :?

Nah. I think you're mis-informed on this. After the first batch of JF-17s is delivered to PAF then all the rest would be made in Pakistan but some parts of it would still be obtained from China. But the airframe and major stuff is gona be made in Pak. Even the K-8, I've heard from a lot of people that its only a matter of time before Pakistan starts making them! :smokingc:

[Red aRRow]

The front fuselage section of the K-8 is manufactured in Pakistan.

[mysterious]

The front fuselage section of the K-8 is manufactured in Pakistan.

Thnx. I was talking about the whole of K-8 I must add. :)

[The Watcher]

The most important part of (pakistani) JF-17 is actually made in Pakistan. You fellas wana take a lucky guess? will provide the answer later. ;)

[Winter]

The most important part of (pakistani) JF-17 is actually made in Pakistan. You fellas wana take a lucky guess? will provide the answer later. ;)

The ejector seat. ;)

[The Watcher]

:roll

No!

The pilot.

:pak

[umair]

The front fuselage section of the K-8 is manufactured in Pakistan.


Add to that the vertical and horizontal tail sections.
P.S forgot to add in my last post, the version of the RC-400 selected for the Thunder is the RC-400-4, which is the most advanced variant of the RC-400 and is anologous to the RDY-2 as used in the 2k5,cept for the range of course.

[Roger Smith]

The front fuselage section of the K-8 is manufactured in Pakistan.

Yup. I read somewhere a month ago that the first fuselage section of K-8
was made in Pakistan and sent to China. :smokingc:

Just for mere discussion if the subject K-8 was a JV between Pakistan and China, don't you think it was 15 years late? :?

On the other hand better late then never! :smokingc:

[The Watcher]

roger, what do you know about K-8s history? please enlighten us

[darklegent]

I was really wonerding since the present day scenario is BVR and not dogfight as earlier what are the chances of the JF17 surviving against the Indian AWACS with 400 to 500kms range or the nearly 200kms range of the Su-30 or for the matter of fact the Mig 21 bison with its 60 kms range?
I may also add the BVR missiles like the Matra Super 530D(Range about 40 kms), the AA-10 Alamo-C(depending on the version 70 to 130kms) and the AA-12Adder (90 to 130 kms) to this.
Do u think the Fc-17 has a chance?

[Majin-Vegeta]

FC-1 not going to happen? who said that?? no offense..but its too late to turn back now, Pakistan spent bout 50% of the cost..thats surely alot of money, no one, especially Pakistan would like to throw away millions and millions of dollars..neither would i or u.

[Admin Edit: Don't get too emotional. :roll ]

[general]

Pakistan will definitely acquire something to counter the AWACS india bought.The JF-17 will be a night mare for India as the InAF consists mainly of MiG-21's and are not going to replaced in the near future where as the JF-17 is planned to go into production by next year(correct me if I am wrong) Pakistan already has 16 for tests

[darklegent]

Dearest General plz check the following thred before you posthttp://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1166
I guess it did mention that India is phazing out their earlier Migs 21 and Mig 23 fleet.
So I guess ur post falls flat on its face. I may sound rude but that is clearly not my intention.PEACE

[P.A.F]

The point GENERAL is making is that the JF-17 can take on any Indian fighter jet. o and by the way further varients of the JF-17 will carry SD-10 so it has got alot of chance to take down the indian AWAC. ;)

[SABRE]

hey guys heres the new from inside PAF but is still unconfirmed.
USA ad decided to sell F-16s to Pakistan trough UAE & Belgium. ese are the one Pakistan actually bought but USA as also decided to sell F16C. Pakistan has also offered a deal 2 buy USA's F-15 & F-14s along with one career for PN.
USA as decided to empty its inventory of old Jets before 2008 when F/A-22 will completely be available to USAF.
Also China has go ahead to Pakisan to buy SU series Jets not only from Ukrain but also from Russia if possible.
The lifting of USA's arms ban on Pakistan & Pakistan's inclusion in Non-Nato alliance is a part of this process or vice versa.

But do take in notice they are rumors.

[The Watcher]

:lol

carrier for PN? F-14s and F15s? :lol

These are rumors for sure! Picked up from a kids list of dream paf inventory. :roll

[Roger Smith]

hey guys heres the new from inside PAF but is still unconfirmed.
USA ad decided to sell F-16s to Pakistan trough UAE & Belgium. ese are the one Pakistan actually bought but USA as also decided to sell F16C. Pakistan has also offered a deal 2 buy USA's F-15 & F-14s along with one career for PN.
USA as decided to empty its inventory of old Jets before 2008 when F/A-22 will completely be available to USAF.
Also China has go ahead to Pakisan to buy SU series Jets not only from Ukrain but also from Russia if possible.
The lifting of USA's arms ban on Pakistan & Pakistan's inclusion in Non-Nato alliance is a part of this process or vice versa.

But do take in notice they are rumors.


Great rumors! :D :nono :lolol

[gf0012-aust]

hey guys heres the new from inside PAF but is still unconfirmed.
USA ad decided to sell F-16s to Pakistan trough UAE & Belgium. ese are the one Pakistan actually bought but USA as also decided to sell F16C. Pakistan has also offered a deal 2 buy USA's F-15 & F-14s along with one career for PN.
USA as decided to empty its inventory of old Jets before 2008 when F/A-22 will completely be available to USAF.
Also China has go ahead to Pakisan to buy SU series Jets not only from Ukrain but also from Russia if possible.
The lifting of USA's arms ban on Pakistan & Pakistan's inclusion in Non-Nato alliance is a part of this process or vice versa.

But do take in notice they are rumors.

These rumours are really a bit far fetched.
Foreign Military Sales is not contingent upon the US backdooring military hardware through friendlies. It wouldn't get past congress for the approval stage if it was seen as a "con"

The US won;t be selling F-15's as they are very much a critical asset in their mix until the F-22's come online. The F-14's would cost Pakistan a fortune to maintain - and would not be worth complicating your existing logistics mix. Besides, there are not enough to be scavenged to do rebuilds and the blanks were destroyed under orders of the Sec of State under Big Bush

There is no way that a 3 way sale would be orgnised between China Russia and the Ukraine, the Russians are desperate for money, but they aren't stupid.

Finally, entry into NATO as a non core member was not preconditioned, Pakistan was invited, and it was in Pakistans interest to accept it. non core membership is contingent of strategic issues, not on sales issues.

[SABRE]

Well i told u they are nothing but rumors. But the F16s are coming..I can feel them. I ve also herd USAF has some kind of StaticSteel Matalic F-16 colored blue which are way better than other F16s. There r only 4 of them. USAF is so optimistic about there F/A 22 that they are even willing 2 sell them 2 Britain & Japan. They were not 4 sell erlier.
Any ways here are some true things not rumors.
Being a Nato member Both Pakistan & Nato countries are allowed to cross into each others Terrotery. It would cost alot of money to Pakistan navy to cross into NATO regions which are in Europe & America but It wont cost much to European & USA's troops to cross into Pakistan. So dont be surprised if u see USAF Jets flying aboe your homes.

Here is another news. I study in Karachi in CBM. The institue is near PAF Base Hyderi. I made friends with some pilots. One of them is quite senior & flys mirage & has also flown the F16 or thats what he says. Anyways I asked him how good are the JF-17 thunder. HE said in year 2006 when v will ve our JF-17 we would still be flying F16 as our Sqdn. Leader with Mirage behind them & than JF-17s as wing men to Mirage. Now you can see where JF-17 flys & where it stands.

People if JF-17 was as good as F16. It wouldnt be flying at 3rd position but in the lead.

[mysterious]

Its not about what you 'feel' abt the F-16s coming or not; but I would rather say that US is hinting that it might just give Pakistan two squadrons as I read somewhere that Powell said it is being worked out and something needed signing which has been done! As for JF-17, I dont think they come up to an F-16 status but on second thought, they 'almost' do, specially to the F-16s of Block 15 that Pakistan has! They would be used as the main-stay of PAF replacing all of the F-7Ps/PGs and A-5s. Its now all down to what PAF is doing about its main front line fighter inventory! They badly need some modern aircraft! I'd tell 'em to go for the Gripen or Typhoon! (with at least 60 pieces needed badly!) :roll

[gf0012-aust]

Well i told u they are nothing but rumors. But the F16s are coming..I can feel them. I ve also herd USAF has some kind of StaticSteel Matalic F-16 colored blue which are way better than other F16s. There r only 4 of them. USAF is so optimistic about there F/A 22 that they are even willing 2 sell them 2 Britain & Japan. They were not 4 sell erlier.
Any ways here are some true things not rumors.
Being a Nato member Both Pakistan & Nato countries are allowed to cross into each others Terrotery. It would cost alot of money to Pakistan navy to cross into NATO regions which are in Europe & America but It wont cost much to European & USA's troops to cross into Pakistan. So dont be surprised if u see USAF Jets flying aboe your homes.

Here is another news. I study in Karachi in CBM. The institue is near PAF Base Hyderi. I made friends with some pilots. One of them is quite senior & flys mirage & has also flown the F16 or thats what he says. Anyways I asked him how good are the JF-17 thunder. HE said in year 2006 when v will ve our JF-17 we would still be flying F16 as our Sqdn. Leader with Mirage behind them & than JF-17s as wing men to Mirage. Now you can see where JF-17 flys & where it stands.

People if JF-17 was as good as F16. It wouldnt be flying at 3rd position but in the lead.

NATO members still need permission from the host to enter their territorial waters or airspace.

I don't see US assets coming into Pakistani territory. The country would have to be at risk, and still would need the invitation of the existing head of state.

The JF-17 was never envisioned as a tier 1 fighter, so it's not that surprising if true.

THe F22 is an air supremacy fighter, I actually can't see how it is a decent fit into the Japanese Air Force ORBAT. Like Australia (and the UK) the focus is on ground attack and protection. So air supremacy can be achieved by their curent force mix.

I really can't see the F22 being made available to other nations for a while - maybe the UK, but no one else has a need or the finances for such a specialised platform

[SABRE]

who said anyting about F/A-22 being on for sale. I dont even think they will be available to UK.

Anyways I just saw J-10 on CCTV. The plain is huge or u can say quite long. Is it realy a good Idea for China & lets say Pakistan aswell to be interested in such a long plan?

Dont ask from where I here these news from but in other news France has agreed to sell Pakistan Mirage2000-5 & also PAF has shown some interest in German EF-2000 but we can only get EF-2000 when we become Non-NATO member.

If Pakistan is to buy these jets than it has 2 be any one of them. its either Mirage 2000-5 or EF-2000. We cant offord 2 buy both at the same time.

In addition some European Nations have shown their interest in JF-17 hunder. The countries involve Turkey, Czec Republic, France & Romania. (lloks like China & Pakistan are exploring the market b4 the jet comes out.)

Any ways what do u think should Pakistan go 4 Mirage or EF?

[WebMaster]

Lets stick to the topic Saber, which is JF-17/FC-1 and its development not which aircraft PAF is going to get. :)

Saber, maybe your reply is more appropriate for this thread:

http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=443

Enjoy!

[umair]

Sabre Thunder for France! Must be our lucky day :roll
BTW the Thunder is not as ancient as the public is led to believe.The formation u have mentioned is due to the roles that each fighter plays in the PAF, not cause it's technically advanced or not.Kapeesh!
Read any thread/article on The Thunder by people who know these issues/and their stuff and u'll come to see that the Thunder is more advanced than our present Falcons.
BTW latest news: Wing area increased by 30%, composites % in the fuselage increased, increase in weapon load of 1000kg, net reduction in max takeoff weight by 300kg.

[darklegent]

I was just wondering as to the statement made by Collins Powel's as Pakistan being a non NATO allie of the U.S. ......... was it backed by the congress of was a Presidential decree passed by the Americans?
I may sound stupid but a single persons remarks may not be that assuring till the President endorses it....... right? :?

[joker]

Saber I suggest you put some thought into what you write. JF17 for France???? Why on earth would France, possessing one of the most advanced aviation industries in the world want the JF17??? Its stuff like this that makes all of the content of your posts quite questionable!!

As to the technical capability of the JF17 there is a lot of material that has been recently revealed to suggest that the JF17 probably will be the most advanced assest in comparison to what the PAF currently has in its inventory. It makes a lot of sense as well even with all the talk of possible F16 sales and sales of EF, Rafale etc. as of this moment in time it is just talk. So really in the foreseeable future the PAF can only bank on the JF 17.

[darklegent]

I find it odd that the PAF or the Pakistani government still wants the F-16 when the JF-17 is considered to be better the the former (alot of people will endorse this stand and alot may not).
My main point is that the current generation of Eurpean jet now availible are definately supprior to the the F-16 Block50/60. Another reason to go in 4 the European jets is that there is alot more of techinical modernisation that will be possible on the European jets as they have only recently entered their respective airforces while the F-16 is breathing its last few years as the main frontline aircraft (to be replaced by 2008-2010 by the F-35).
As with respect to the Jf-17 or even the LCA......... come on give it time both these jets will be upgraded with passage of time. What aircraft enters the airfoce today may be totaly technologically different say 10-15 years from 2day.(look at the bloody F-16).

[Roger Smith]

I find it odd that the PAF or the Pakistani government still wants the F-16 when the JF-17 is considered to be better the the former (alot of people will endorse this stand and alot may not).


Pakistanis are aware that American technology is original and better than Chinese technology, which is duplicated/copied and not original. :smokingc:

[Londo Molari]

Who cares if its original? What good is it, if America isn't selling?

Besides, the JF-17 IS better than any F-16A/B. And that's why Pakistan is persueing the program.

Gooo China!

[Roger Smith]

Besides, the JF-17 IS better than any F-16A/B. And that's why Pakistan is persueing the program.

Gooo China!


The JF-17 / FC-1 / Super 7 fighter plane is untested in combat and for that matter is unoperational. Pakistan has to await at least a couple of years, prior it can even test fly a JF-17. ;)

[mysterious]

Roger, you just posted some "obvious" things about a new plane! Even then, JF-17 has been tested in flight and its manouverability tested! JF-17 is certainly better and more advanced than any F-16 A/B of Block 10 or 15 and so Pakistan wants it! It would be an entirely different matter if the US suddenly agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan from, lets say, Block 50! But that is like being highly optimistic which we should not be in the case of US. :smokingc:

[Roger Smith]

Roger, you just posted some "obvious" things about a new plane! Even then, JF-17 has been tested in flight


JF-17 tested by whom?

The JF-17 are being flight tested by manufacturer's test pilot and not by PAF pilot, it is a long way to go prior PAF can lay their hands on JF-17...........at least not till 2007! :smokingc: