How Hitler Should Have Conducted the War

[Col.Gen.]

People have many opinions on how Hitler should have conducted the war. Some of these opinions are intelligent others leave much to be desired. However I'd like to hear from you gentlemen because I believe you all to be of a high calibre when it comes to intelligence.

[P.A.F]

The was an interesting TV program on Hitlers tactics the other day on BBC1. Anyone watch it????

[Col.Gen.]

Personally I think that Hitler should have advanced on Antwerp to take the B.E.F. and then prepare to invade England after having defeated the U.K. I believe that would have given the Italians more reason to fight. I would have convinced Japan to prolong the campaign in China and leave U.S. interests alone until a more suitable time. After England was forced to capitulate I would have devoted my primary resources to taking North Africa as a prerquisite to invading Russia. After North Africa was under my belt minimal German forces with substaintial Italian forces would have invaded Russia from the south, Germans from the North and Japanese from the East. My forces would haveadvanced until they met somewhere around Lake Baikal. By then Russia and England would have been crushed, allowing me to sit back for enough time to rebuild and eventually turn my combined strength on the Pacific and the U.S. Unfortunately the time it would take for the Axis to rebuild might have lent the Allies enough time to make the Pacific and U.S. not worth the fight. So I probably would have resigned myself to Africa, Asia and Europe.

[Col.Gen.]

Unfortunately being in Job Corps I don't see much T.V.The was an interesting TV program on Hitlers tactics the other day on BBC1. Anyone watch it????

[Defcon 6]

Well, if we are going to talk total tactics.

I would have done my blietzkrieg, through Poland and the neutral lands and taken France. Extended to the shores.

I would have focused on only certain secret weapons.
-V-1
-V-2
-Me-262
-He-162
-Ar-34 (Aranado jet bomber)
-Gustav Gun
-Tiger II
-Super Battleships (After england)

I never would have turned against Russia, because it was ultimately futile in every way. It was an impossible fight.

I would have held off in Africa until I had taken England. The Africa corps gained nothing of real use.

I would have used my jet technology to fight allied daylight bombing.

I would have created a defensive line using a mobile war. Not a defensive war except the siegfried line. Not to mention the Gothic Line.

I would have focused on building Tiger II and Panther Tanks to achieve an ultimate victory. And I would have devoted something to heavy bombing.

The concentration camps were idiotic. The Jews could have been used as soldiers, and been riled up to support the third reicht instead of being a major humanitarian reason against it.

With Russian forces China would have been wiped clean and a joint invasion of England could have taken place.

[asadmak22]

The Gustav gun? Isn't that the gun with the 200 mm shell? by 1944 Russia had a total outnumbered the German by 9 tanks to 1! Germany should have made a separate peace with Russia by 1943 since it already held large area of Mother Russia, the Russian would have made a peace since they were still in danger of being knocked out! Then Germany should have concentrated all its resources on the West Allies.!

[Col.Gen.]

I like most of your plan Defcon but I don't believe with a U.S. buildup that America would have stood by and watched the Pacific fall under Germany and Japan. I think that would have caused America to enter the war and Russia to join in if just to try to wrest control of the Pacific to Russia.

[turin]

@Defcon6

Your part about the jews ignores political issues. You just cant draw out military tactics alone without respect to the social and political circumstances in which the 3rd Reich was established in the first place. The jews were the scapegoat of the Nazis, it greatly helped them to establish their regime and legitimate political and economical reform. You are basically talking of a completely different german nation and leadership that doesnt fit in with reality.

Also , you obviously have an affinity for the charme of superweapons. These super battleships would have been just one gigantic waste of time and ressources, valued against their operational use. Especially since Germany at that time had no advantage whatsoever in the relevant technology over its opponents, most notably the US, and the shipbuilding capacities of Germany would have been blocked to great extent for other procurements. For example a credible amphibious force would have been necessary in order to invade Britain in the first place.
So, although a surface fleet is necessary to some extent, the submarine arm would have offered some significant advantages for the Kriegsmarine. If (and thats a big "if" already) the planning and building of more advanced submarines, most notably the XXI-type would have started only one year earlier, the outcome of the Battle in the Atlantic would have been quite different. But the Kriegsmarine and Hitler decided on accelerating submarine construction only after the heavy surface vessels, which were few at the time, proved to be without any further operational use. Especially since all the time the atlantic bases were under direct attack of the RAF.

Wether to attack Russia or not is quite a matter of perspective. I would not have done so. There was no significant need to do that except for Hitlers dream of the "Lebensraum im Osten" (living space in the east). Still the conquer of at least the european part of Russia was nowhere near impossibility. The russians may have posed a significiant threat in the future (although I dont believe in some people claiming Russia has planned an invasion itself). Yet many mistakes have been made in the operational planning and during the campaign, so things could only go awry as they did.

To give some hard points of my own to the discussion:

With the navy I would have given priority to the submarine arm, based on useful designs like the XXI and XXIII, since it was the one and best chance to isolate the UK and deter any US-engagement. A surface fleet would have had the task of binding enemy forces and assisting in warfare against supply ships. Also of course one needs escort vessels for sea-lift-operations. The construction of mid- to large-sized carriers might have been desirable in the further course of the war, especially to enhance german control of the North Atlantic, one the British were defeated.

With the Luftwaffe I would have promoted the development of long range escort fighters in order to give my bomber-campaigns against the UK some credible protection. For that I would have used further versions of AC like the FW190/Ta152, proven and technologically safe designs. The development of strategic bomber forces might have been desirable. However the german forces had no prior experience whatsoever with this kind of strategy. The development of useful jet fighters would have been the necessary next step in the evolution of fighter warfare. A high-low-development, for example with the Me-262 and another light one-engine-fighter might have been the way.

With the army the Panther clearly was the best german tank in overall performance, so it would have had priority over the expensive and heavy Tiger II. The latter might have seen limited production for defense-operations, perhaps to strengthen defense lines in the east.

As for the real operations, well the escape of the B.E.F. was obviously one of the biggest mistakes of german planning.
The activities in North Africa are not so much a problem for me. In the long-term it might have meant securing important ressources in the middle-east through defeating the british forces there. Also the battle was only really lost, when Hitler changed priorities and gave a go to the russian invasion which made further reinforcements for the african theater impossible. Of course it would have been necessary to deal with the RN in the Mediterranean. The activities of the Italian navy were more than disappointing in this respect.

[Col.Gen.]

The Gustav Gun was also a waste though not on as grand a scale but simply because of the resources that would have been needed to utilize it. Those resources could be spent in better ways. And though I never considered not invading Russia I guess that I have to admit besides the oil fields and extra areas to grow food there would have been no point but to say she was impossible to defeat I have to wonder about.

[General_Conway]

Hitler's Big Mistake:
Great Britain had very little real strength past her coasts. Hitler should have saved alot of the force he sent to Africa and went on with the invasion of England. Once he finished off the only other threat in Europe, he could turn his full attention to Asia, forget Africa for the time being.
However, even with England out of the picture, I still dont think Germany could have won in Russia.

[corzair]

Oh My GOD

hitler! seriously your discssing this
the guy worked for the world order
there still at war with us

[General_Conway]

Oh My GOD

hitler! seriously your discssing this
the guy worked for the world order
there still at war with us

I dont see what the problem is... What is wrong with some people playing out historical what ifs?

[Berserk Fury]

nothing wrong with that.
we can't change history so there's no problem discussing it.
Yea, hitler shouldna invaded Africa. I think the Britain plan is pretty good though defending it from allied forces would be a serious pain in the butt.

[General_Conway]

nothing wrong with that.
we can't change history so there's no problem discussing it.
Yea, hitler shouldna invaded Africa. I think the Britain plan is pretty good though defending it from allied forces would be a serious pain in the butt.

I agree, although, defending that much territory would be hard any way.

[Berserk Fury]

Though if the Germans decided to share there sub tech with the Japanese, it might have significantly delayed the defeat of Japan.

[Defcon 6]

they did share their tech with japan.

[Berserk Fury]

lol I meant to say earlier.
They were too late in sharing the U-boat tech as half the war was almost over.

[nz enthusiast]

Thing is you guys are looking at Hitlers tactics after the war so you know what went wrong. Hitler when was doing thing did not know what you guys now know.
There were three things which screwed Hitler: Mussolini's stupidity in Greece. Hitler forced to go help him, attack on the Soviet Union comes late in the fighting season ie summer. The Russian winter was earlier than normal and the Germans fuel froze.
A Russian double agent who managed to convince Stalin that Japan would not attack. Stalin then took his experienced snow troops from the east and threw them in front of Mosocw.
There was nothing wrong with Hitlers tactics really, he was just an 'evil genious'. He ran out of people and then fussed to send the women into the work force, thats what screwed him up.

[turin]

They were too late in sharing the U-boat tech as half the war was almost over.

No point in that since the Germans managed to field their newer and superior designs themselves only when half of the war was over and the battle for the Atlantic was lost. Also at least in some regards the japanese sub technology was not that much inferior, for example it was a japanese sub that managed to reach the highest submerged top speed during the war.
The japanese navy did not emphasize submarine warfare as much as the Germans did due to different doctrines. Even the Kriegsmarine only managed to shift its ressources fully on submarine warfare when it was already too late.

A Russian double agent who managed to convince Stalin that Japan would not attack.

It would not have needed such an agent since the Japanese had very clearly no intention to march against the Russians at all. This is mainly due to experience in fighting russian troops prior to WWII. My guess is that Stalin would have seen that himself quite soon.

There was nothing wrong with Hitlers tactics really, he was just an 'evil genious'.

I fail to see to this very day the reason for the view of Hitler as some kind of genius, especially in the military sense of the word. A view that seems to be very persistent outside Germany, yet not so much within. Hitler was to some degree a gifted character concerning politics and especially rhetorics. Also he mostly shared the view of his time and the german people concering some major social issues. However he had no special military gifts whatsoever.

That shows up very clearly in several of his decisions concering vital tactical and strategic planning:
The halt in development of rocket technology after the invasion of Poland. Not foreseeing Britains entry to the war after the invasion of Poland (he expected the french decision for war though and was not worried about that). His approval of using the Luftwaffe in striking against the BEF in place of the army. His decision of further development the Me-262, the most promising jet fighter of its time, as a bomber, therefore delaying fielding of the fighter for one whole year, allowing the allied strategic bomber offensive to continue. Not to mention his multiple mistakes in planning the military actions against Russia after he took over most of the planning from his generals himself.
Hitler in the beginning had the luck of having the right people in the right places. However after he took more direct decisions in the war and when allegiance to his person grew more important than military skill and knowledge, things went rapidly awry.


He ran out of people and then fussed to send the women into the work force, thats what screwed him up.

He would not have ran out of people if he would not have screwed up with some of his major decisions concering warfare, just ask the 6th army!
Also there was nothing wrong with the women. In fact they formed large parts of the industrial workforce and even homeland defence, thus contributing to the war.
It was however a major mistake to shift german industrial production to military needs and war time standards as late as they did. Mind you, german economy ran on peace time standards for the better part of three years into the war! Only when Albert Speer took over the planning of the industrial production in 1943, the german economy managed to perform incredibly, putting out equipment in sheer masses and all this at a time when ressources were already spread thin and despite allied bombing raids.

[Berserk Fury]

A Russian double agent?
Didn't know about that.
Regarding the Me-262, I think it might have been promising but it's fuel consumption rates are sky high and with fuel shortages fielding the Me-262 as a primary fighter wouldn't be a good idea... at least I think so.

[General_Conway]

A Russian double agent?
Didn't know about that.
Regarding the Me-262, I think it might have been promising but it's fuel consumption rates are sky high and with fuel shortages fielding the Me-262 as a primary fighter wouldn't be a good idea... at least I think so.

I hadnt heard about the double agent, I just knew that Stalin basically ignored Japan.
As for the ME, I think if Hitler would have known the sheer advantage of jet technology, he would have found a way to field it, to find more fuel, and to improve upon it...

[Berserk Fury]

Yeah, he probably would but that never happend now did it? :p:

[turin]

As for the ME, I think if Hitler would have known the sheer advantage of jet technology, he would have found a way to field it, to find more fuel, and to improve upon it... For Hitler the sheer advantage was limited to the possibility of building fast bombers, so: No, he obviously lacked knowledge, especially considering the german situation at the time of the initial fielding of the Me-262. As for the fuel shortages: that apparently was not really a point since the Me-262 formed the backbone of german fighter forces in the last months of the war. When Hitler finally realized the desperate situation concerning the allied bombing raids (at a time when it was far too late), he gave priority to the production of Me-262 over all other fighter planes. The fuel shortages were a general problem that forced grounding of large numbers of aircraft, regardless of being jet propulsed or not. So in the end it did not really make any difference and the combat effectiveness of the Me-262 was highly superior to that of the more conventional fighters. However the jet fighter did not manage to have a real impact on the outcome of the war not only due to fuel shortages but due to lack of enough trained pilots as well.

[Berserk Fury]

Lol
That is probably the best explanation so far.
Hitler obviously didn't have experience and he didn't listen very well to his generals. The German air force was squashed so even a squadron of Me-262's wouldn't have turned the tide of war. Plus, by that time the Germans were already focused on their tank divisions etc.

[JAF]

First step to have your production capabilities going at 110%.

Before attacking into Western Europe the Nazi's should have built up a sufficient submarine force to strangle Britain. If this force existed than an invasion would not be necessary. Such a force could bloakade the UK while an
advanced class of sub sealed off the Atlantic and isolated Europe from North America.

The escape of BEF was a major boob. Destroy the BEF, occupy all of France and capture Gibraltar, ocupy Morroco, thus sealing off the MED.

If you Seal off the MED and Blockade Britain, no need to invade Africa. The UK fiorces their (in the MED) simply starve.

Russia, if you are going to attack, attack early and charge straight for Moscow and don't stop till the Kremlin's yours. I am of the opinion Germany
was doomed if she did or did not attack Russsia. If she doess you have a two front war against a country with nearly three times your population and
10 times your industrial potential. If you don't than you are leaving that
same country to arm fully.

The air war over Brittain should have concentrated on RAF bases, radar stations and factories. Bombing the populace only strengthens their reslove and gives your oponents a political rally cry. And does nothing to your openents ability to wage war.

Regarding the choice of MBT. I would have like to see the following design,
a Panther type vehichle with a Christie suspension armed with an 88. A nasty beast. If I had to choose an existing design I would go with the panther.

[KGB]

[q However the jet fighter did not manage to have a real impact on the outcome of the war not only due to fuel shortages but due to lack of enough trained pilots as well.[/quote]


The first 262 squadron was piloted by an "all ace" group; a lot of them had 100 kills credited to them at that time. I'd love to specify the source I got this from but the book was borrowed and never returned.

One way the allies dealt with the 262's was to send de haviland mosquitoes to lurk near German airfields. the 262s were exceptionally vulnerable while landing it seems, and the allies managed to pick off quite a few of them

[Danecookie]

he should've saved OIL RIGS in the first place...

*alas*

[ozzieos10]

Why should he be interesting? He is nothing more than a simple corporal and not some kind of general.

[Defcon 6]

Hitler could indeed have won the war or at least gained enough ground to call it quits with all of Europe under his thumb.

1.) Never should have declared war on the U.S.S.R, trying to wrestle multiple super powers was idiotic.

2.) Should have stayed out of Africa, all that managed to do was sacrafice good troops and armored divisons.

3.) Stayed away from all the experimental crap. except for:
A.) Me-262
B.) He-163 (advanced versions abound)
C.) Ar-234
D.) Ho-229
E.) V-2
F.) V-1
G.) Me-163 Komet

Thats it. Just those. He should have left Italy alone and reinforced the Gothic Line as well. The Siegfried line was important as well.

Someone mentioned-
Before attacking into Western Europe the Nazi's should have built up a sufficient submarine force to strangle Britain. If this force existed than an invasion would not be necessary. Such a force could bloakade the UK while an
advanced class of sub sealed off the Atlantic and isolated Europe from North America.

Hitler did have such a sub near the end of the war. The Elektro-boat XXI (U-boat). it was an advanced sub that was the basis for the nuclear powered nautilus powered subs. Additionally the XXIII's could have been used for patrol duties.

Before that point U-Boats had been getting the job done.

However the most important thing was the production of Tiger II's and Panther tanks. He should have produced the Tiger II's and Panthers in mass, however he didn't and it cost him the western front. If he had never bothered with Africa and the Soviets then he would have had enough reserves to hold the western front long enough to take Britain, then it would have been a tedious lag because he would have to build a vast surface Navy to continue on from there.

Attacking the U.S would have been a useless gesture unless they refused to sign an armastice.

In short, thats what it would have took to win that war. However Hitler made mistakes and that was his downfall. Luckilly for all of us.

[wildcat1]

Hitler should have conducted the war by listening to his Generals and soldiers. His failure to properly utilized his resources led to his demise.
;)

[turin]

Would Hitler have listened to his generals at the beginning of the war, then the victory over France would not have happened. Every single general was very sceptical or openly opposing these plans and a certain number of officers even considered conducting a coup against Hitler. These efforts were stopped only after a failed assassination attempt on Hitler in late '39, when public opinion backed Hitler heavily.
I agree for the latter part of the war.

[wildcat1]

Every single general was very sceptical or openly opposing these plans and a certain number of officers even considered conducting a coup against Hitler.
Good point.

On another note, I guess that regardless of how Hitler conducted the war, the fact that the Reich had no idea that the Allies broke their Ultra Code nothing Hitler could've done would have made a difference because for every plan they had, the allies are already a step ahead.

[Lonewolf]

allied broke the ultra code yes but that was mainly for the uboats, not the so much the land war ( battle of the bulge total suprise acheived )

Hitler had his good and bad, bad being the jews, russian p.o.ws, basicly racism. he did some very good things for germany, autobahn, volkwagen beetle, economy, gave germany back its pride after ww1 and is acknowledge as the world best orator or speaker till today.

As for the corporal's military strategy he was no strategos. he succeded in poland/france because of blitzgreig/ very extremely poor leadership on the french side and abit of luck among other things. Remember the divisionary tactics was still done by the generals not hitler. Blitzgrieg was thought of by Gunderian and runsdant.

Ps my spelling sucks

[Col.Gen.]

For the record gentleman I would like to state that the term Blitzkrieg is something reports came up with and was not a real term in german military thinking at that time... And also I would like to point out that every single general was not skeptical of the assault plan but a great deal were. The original idea was for a modernized version of the Great General Staff's plan embodied in the term "keep the right wing strong". A Luftwaffe officer crashed his plane in Belgium while carrying those plans so Guderian and some others helped devise the plan but Rundstedt didn't exactly care for it either. Hence his lack of willingness to let the Panzers off their leashes. Though I do agree there was the very real chance of a counterattack seperating the panzers from the tanks history has proven that it would have been worth the risk.

[long live usa]

hitler was a fool when his commanders beged him to atack moscow after smolenks when the red army was reeling he waited, wanting to level the city to be symbolic as the destruction of communism and wanted as much of the population as possible to flood east spreading horror when he alowwed the atack to take place it met huge succes however he waited to long and in october rains began and the low qaulity russian roads turned into mud not until november did the roads freeze and the offensive resume but the cold that froze the roads soon froze his soldiers so he allowed them to fall back to defensive positions this allowed the russians to start counter atacking and re establish defensive lines and the city was saved also many russians viewed the germans as liberators(communism was not popular among the russian peaple) he would have had hundreds of thousands of willing vulenteers instead he had them killed or sent off as slave labor this is proof of his stupidity

[Strategos]

I disagree with the abandon africa idea,a better idea would be to send rommel as little as a fith of what was put into Russia,he'd have to take out Malta first but that wouldnt have stood up to a decent sized invasion. meanwhile commit a fair amount of production to submarines an to quote JAF:

"The air war over Brittain should have concentrated on RAF bases, radar stations and factories. Bombing the populace only strengthens their reslove and gives your oponents a political rally cry. And does nothing to your openents ability to wage war."

Then just watch Rommel take the Suez canal,thereb cutting of the island(Britian) form her empire, and prepare an invasion of the middle east. That would take out critical allied oil.this will severly limit russian imports,and give a cushy route to invade them from. We will leave them alone for now.

With the africa campaign over concentrate germanys industrial might on the sea war,and invade them once the navys been brought to its knees(It's oilless thanks to Rommel) Now finaly.

On to Russia! A two prong invasion (Rommel and Guderian anyone?) launched at the begining of the dry season will threaten eveything forcing the enemy to divide its forces, when the goal is reached (either Moscow or the Urikaine) concentrate forces to out number the enemy.Get Japan to to attack Siberia with enogh force to hold Stalin's troops down (tempt them with territory). and:LEAVE THE US ALONE!

Congratulations on your world dommination

[crazypole]

Though your plan seems to have all the answers I think that there are a number of problems. Most importantly Hitler's idealogy would not really allow for a very long delay in an assault against the USSR. Ultimately the East was always his intended direction, not the rest of Europe. Also, Hitler struck the USSR at an opportune time. The T-34, and to a lesser extent KV-1, was only just coming into mainstream use, imagine if the bulk of the tanks initially engaged by the panzer divisions were T-34's instead of the variety of lighter (eg. BT-series) tanks actually faced. In my opinion, the panzer divisions would not have really upgraded their tanks, or have developed the Pz. V-VI models, as these were primarily designed to counter the Soviet tanks. This means that the bulk of the panzers in use would be pz III versions, whose 50mm main gun was pretty abysmal against the heavier Soviet tanks.
Also with the purges diminishing, if there was no repeat then the longer the German attack took to materialise the more organised the Soviet command structure would be.
Lastly, I believe that if Japan went to war with the USA Hitler would also declare war as long as he was still at war with the UK and it's empire.

And, from memory, Col.Gen. is right, the Blitzkreig name was not a commonly accepted military term at first. The Germans thought more in terms of Schwerpunkt and Aufrollen, ie. local superiority to create a "puncture" in the enemy lines, followed by exploitation to the rear and to the flanks of the enemy positions.

[WAR]

It is said that -- human history is the history of human follies.

Actually Hitler was deeply inspired with Friedrick Neitzhe.
He must have taken strength from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", but I suppose failed to grasp "The birth of tragedy".

And the irony was, he acted in a pure and concrete existential paradigm. Must have thought and transcended himself to be a true spirit of DASEIN (Man, thrown in the world)!!!

[Big-E]

It is said that -- human history is the history of human follies.

Actually Hitler was deeply inspired with Friedrick Neitzhe.
He must have taken strength from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", but I suppose failed to grasp "The birth of tragedy".

And the irony was, he acted in a pure and concrete existential paradigm. Must have thought and transcended himself to be a true spirit of DASEIN (Man, thrown in the world)!!!

:shudder