Should PN aquire stealth ships ?

[Oqaab]

As u ppl know that countries like Saudi Arabia, Malaysia are now interested in stealth ships and will be inducting some in future. Even India is trying to get more stealth ships such as P-17 and Talwar. Warships like La Fayette of France and Chinese stealth ships are very expensive and since our defence budget in only 3 billion per year, we definatly cant get these ships.

The Amazon class frigates are the backbone of PN. Should we upgrade these six ships with stealth technology with the help of France or China ???? And BTW, China will be selling us four Jaingwei II (F-22p) Frigates and we can upgrade those ships as well.

The Advantages,

1. No need of buying costly ships.
2. It will not too much money.
3. F-22p ships armed with C-802/803 missiles and stealth technology will be able to counter any stealth ship and in this way we will be having four stealth ships in our fleet.

What do u think guys ????

All contributions are welcomed and will be appretiated.

[Red aRRow]

Well if you are footing the bill then why not get some Visby Class Frigates from Sweden?? :) :) :D
No but seriously, the F-22P are already an upgraded version of Jiangwei so will not be needing much more upgrades immediately after Pakistan buys them. On the other hand the PN needs to be strengthened in order to counter any sea blockade which an enemy might obviously try to do in case of conflict with pakistan. Or better yet......if it does happen then just nuke the blockade!! :D

[Winter]

I'm probably wrong but I doubt you could convert a regular war vessel such as an Active-class frigate to a full-stealth capacity. You possibly could minimise its signature through major restructuring and such but that has probably already been done in a local and design sense.

[Oqaab]

shamayel,

First of all, Visby is a corvette and not a frigate. Basically, It was made to counter submarines and what I mean was to make PN stealth with stealth frigates or destroyers. Secondly, as I mentioned before, we do not have much funds to aquir stealth ships. Do u know the price of these corvettes ????
:)

[Red aRRow]

Oqaab dude Pakistan doesn´t have the cash or the need for Visby corvettes. i think instead of jumping too far ahead one should upgrade the PN steadily and gradually. First of all the 3 Agostas will give good boost to the PNs striking power and if the F-22Ps are inducted that will be another step. Only after that any stealth ship could be looked into. But lets not put the cart before the horse. :D

[The Watcher]

Pakistan's navy do need some help but I don't think with induction of stealth ships. Pakistan needs newer and better ships capable of halting any indian navy advancments with antiship missiles and anti sub armament. Spending money on stealth would do no good atleast not for now... in future they would be a feasable option!

[Oqaab]

First of all the 3 Agostas will give good boost to the PNs striking power and if the F-22Ps are inducted that will be another step. Only after that any stealth ship could be looked into. But lets not put the cart before the horse

Pakistan selected agostas to couter kilo subs. Agostas do have some stealth features but I dont think they can score much against stealth ships. About F-22p, these ships will surely enhance PNs defence capabilities but since China is now making stealth destroyers like "Type 052" I think Pakistan should ask China to share the stealth systems of this warship with F-22p.

[Oqaab]

Come on yaar shamayel, lets have a debate over it. Where are u ??? ;)

[Frozen Hell]

Who is willing to sell Pakistan stealth ships? What are its options?

[Red aRRow]

Ok dude Oqaab am here. Problem with Chinese supply is that nowadays China is itself arming its navy at a rapid pace. All or most of its resources are going into building DDGs and FFGs for its own navy, which was quite weak and needed improvement. So I think maybe they are not ready to be fulfilling export orders for the PN at this moment. But I am sure in a couple of years they would be ready to export and would have had the experience of making good ships with stealth features and maybe even the AEGIS type of radar.
I think its good idea to take the F-22P now...also try to make 3 more Agosta probably. And then gradually get into some transfer of technology contract with the Chinese ship building industry. But it is true that stealth featured ships like the chinese Type 052 will give a superb boost to PN.

Another thing is that in ships the stealth features are difficult to integrate with older ships. I think its only possible while making new ships.....like it is constructed in such a fashion so as to keep the RCS to a minimum. I think its difficult to do these things with an already built ship.

[wzhtg]

How about getting some A Meko 100 like malaysia?

[Winter]

A very nice and capable vessel but unfortunately it wouldn't pay to throw 1,500 tonners against an enemy carrier battle group......Or an Indian Delhi for instance. Malaysia's strategic situation is completely different to Pakistan's.

[Oqaab]

The options are Chinese type 052 or French La Fayette stealth ships. Pakistan is not wealthy enough to buy these ships in next 2-3 years but we can get the necessary stealth technology need to counter stealth ships.

[ullu]

Chinese are not willing to give pakistan any discount? So much for "good friends" crap!

[mikoyan]

Would be a good bet for Pakistan to get some stealth equipped ships. As for the f-22s I see them as replacements for pakistan's existing Leanders and Type-21's rather than as augmentations to PNs strike force.

[Oqaab]

Chinese are not willing to give pakistan any discount? So much for "good friends" crap!

Of cource we have to buy the technology. But only the technology of some componente, not the whole ship.

Would be a good bet for Pakistan to get some stealth equipped ships. As for the f-22s I see them as replacements for pakistan's existing Leanders and Type-21's rather than as augmentations to PNs strike force.

Well, type-21 can still serve for another 5-6 years but these needs upgrade.

[Red aRRow]

Chinese are not willing to give pakistan any discount? So much for "good friends" crap!

Awww come on now....don't expect to be getting freebies all the time. :D :D

[corsair7772]

Well stealth frigates dont seem neccessary right now
The F-22s should be used for the defence of Gwadar cuz come on guyz! pakistan is about 2 have 2 port cities instead of 1.

so frigates is ok but if were thinking of blasting bombay with stealth frigates.. we should do it with a pair of agostas instead armed with some good SSM missiles just like the indians did 2 karachi in 1971 with their OSAs.
Any blockade on the otherhand can be dealt with by the PAF and the subs b4 the PN sends in it's own ships.

[Oqaab]

Well stealth frigates dont seem neccessary right now
The F-22s should be used for the defence of Gwadar cuz come on guyz! pakistan is about 2 have 2 port cities instead of 1.

so frigates is ok but if were thinking of blasting bombay with stealth frigates.. we should do it with a pair of agostas instead armed with some good SSM missiles just like the indians did 2 karachi in 1971 with their OSAs.
Any blockade on the otherhand can be dealt with by the PAF and the subs b4 the PN sends in it's own ships.

U mean, Indian submarines launched Surface-Surface missiles over PAK ???? Man, they dont have SSM launching submarines at that time. Bombing should be done from Ships and this is what Pakistan did in 1965.

Anyways, there are no plans of destroying bombay but we need stuff to counter stealth ships.

[corsair7772]

Imeant that the indians blasted Karachi with Osas.

And we cant destroy bombay but a couple of SSMs on those loading areas and other facilities would suit us nicely...

BTW 2 counter stealth frigates u basically use visual recon from aircraft, helis and some FACs

[Winter]

Visual identification is not an effective counter to stealth warships.

[Su_37]

Well firstly PN don;t need any slealth ship. India buyed slealth ship becasue it wnated to become blue waater one.

Pakistan has small area to portect and even if he buyed slealth ship then it will have the limited cability and can easily be countered by the maritime planes or with latest Bhromos antiship misslies duying the day time.

Getting the slealth surface ship is easy for IN.

[corsair7772]

ummmmmmmm
i dont get wat ur sayin. Its ur grammar.

[Su_37]

Sorry .. becasue the time i wrote that i was in a hurry /......

Anyway , Pak don;t need any stealth ship becasue ....
1) it is costly and no Country will provide this technology.
2) Slealth ship is good during night and in day time it is easily spotable.
3) Pn don;t wanna become blue water navy.
4) In day time IN navy will hunt it down with its maritime planes and when it is spotted it will be then sank down with the volly of anti ship missiles.

the reasons for going after stealth ship may be :-

India making its stealth ship off it own moreover india want to beocme blue water navy where long night mission is possible , so india needs that type of ship.

Stealth ship also increase india's image in marinetime power and in the field of technology and engg.

[Oqaab]

it is costly and no Country will provide this technology.

There will not be any funds problem, but we can only afford the stealth systems, not the whole ship.

In day time IN navy will hunt it down with its maritime planes and when it is spotted it will be then sank down with the volly of anti ship missiles.

If u think that INs MiG-29 will do the job, then dont worry. JF-17s will be there to counter those planes. About antiship missiles, It is not a big threat to PN. The JF-17 may carry the deadly C-802K missiles and hence we can do the same thing which u said.

[Su_37]

In day time IN navy will hunt it down with its maritime planes and when it is spotted it will be then sank down with the volly of anti ship missiles.

If u think that INs MiG-29 will do the job, then dont worry. JF-17s will be there to counter those planes. About antiship missiles, It is not a big threat to PN. The JF-17 may carry the deadly C-802K missiles and hence we can do the same thing which u said.[/quote]


My dear friend i don;t think india need Mig 29, Jagur, sea Harrer and SU 30.

Indian ships are armed with a BARAK Anti -Anti Ship Missile , which has 100% accuracy again subsonic missiles. Which can also stop C-802K or Harpoon missiles or any.

Indian will have Supersonic 300km range Brahmos Supersonic Anti ship missile which only India and Russia have and it is unstopable. It can also be launched from Air , Land and Ship. Will be come into action in 2004

[Red aRRow]

Indian ships are armed with a BARAK Anti -Anti Ship Missile , which has 100% accuracy again subsonic missiles. Which can also stop C-802K or Harpoon missiles or any.

Indian will have Supersonic 300km range Brahmos Supersonic Anti ship missile which only India and Russia have and it is unstopable. It can also be launched from Air , Land and Ship. Will be come into action in 2004

I thought the deal for BARAK missiles from Israel was signed like two days ago wasn't it?? so they are not operational as yet. I don't know about the accuracy of the system and feasability so will not comment on that.

The Brahmos (Russian Yakhont) is a formidable missile and will be posing the greatest risk to the PN fleet. I think this is one good reason for Pakistan to be acquiring low RCS(Radar Cross Signature) ships.

[Oqaab]

In day time IN navy will hunt it down with its maritime planes and when it is spotted it will be then sank down with the volly of anti ship missiles.

If u think that INs MiG-29 will do the job, then dont worry. JF-17s will be there to counter those planes. About antiship missiles, It is not a big threat to PN. The JF-17 may carry the deadly C-802K missiles and hence we can do the same thing which u said.


My dear friend i don;t think india need Mig 29, Jagur, sea Harrer and SU 30.

Indian ships are armed with a BARAK Anti -Anti Ship Missile , which has 100% accuracy again subsonic missiles. Which can also stop C-802K or Harpoon missiles or any.

Indian will have Supersonic 300km range Brahmos Supersonic Anti ship missile which only India and Russia have and it is unstopable. It can also be launched from Air , Land and Ship. Will be come into action in 2004[/quote]

My dearest friend, the Barak missile which India tested were failed to find their target. The two missiles were fired against a russian missile but they failed to destroy the missile.

Here is the complete info.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=35867

Now what do u say about its accuracy ???

[Su_37]

[quote="Su_37"][quote]
My dearest friend, the Barak missile which India tested were failed to find their target. The two missiles were fired against a russian missile but they failed to destroy the missile.

Here is the complete info.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=35867

Now what do u say about its accuracy ???

Well the problem is facing is interigration with russian radar and as you know it is temporary problem. Moreover Curreltly this system is used by Isreali navy also and if it is the not 100% accurate then why Isreali Navy using it. Temporary problem dude of integration.

Well deal already was signed and barak already installed in its all the front line warship.

India bever claimed a scuess when it purchase nay majoy wapon system. One can see when india buyed 155mm Bofrce Gun from Italy , then also it dubbed as a majoy failure in the test and it is not worthwile etc etc .. but in Kargil it proves all wrong.

I told ya indian Military is the most secreat one when it comes on fire power.

[Oqaab]

The Chinese missiles shares some russian technology and the Barak might not be able to hit them. Anyways lets see how much time it takes.

BTW, Do not shift the topic to Kargil war !!!

[Red aRRow]

India bever claimed a scuess when it purchase nay majoy wapon system. One can see when india buyed 155mm Bofrce Gun from Italy

It's called Bofors and it is from Sweden...not Italy.

[Winter]

Su_37...No missile in this world is 100% accurate.

[gf0012-aust]

Pakistan should be focussing on EW and C4i. Then it should be emphasising Submarine capability.

I am not going to get into a chest beating contest about India and Pakistan as I have friends and military work colleagues in both countries. I have seen both militaries train, and I have dealt with some of the new technologies that both countries are going to employ.

I am giving a tactical opinion only.

[Aussie Digger]

To whoever said a certain air defence system is 100% accurate, I think you should stop believing everything you read. No weapon system is perfect, not Russian, American, Chinese, French, Indian or Pakistani. It may be very good, but almost certainly will have some flaw. Every design after all is a compromise of some sort. Nothing can excel in every possible situation. Cheers.

[Oqaab]

The Agosta 90B is enough to counter any Kilo or Scorpane but it still needs anti-ship missiles like Klub-S/N or a sub-launched version of C-803.

[Awang se]

The Agosta 90B is enough to counter any Kilo or Scorpane but it still needs anti-ship missiles like Klub-S/N or a sub-launched version of C-803.

When did the submarine appeared here?

[Oqaab]

The Agosta 90B is enough to counter any Kilo or Scorpane but it still needs anti-ship missiles like Klub-S/N or a sub-launched version of C-803.

When did the submarine appeared here?

U mean Agosta ?? The second submarine was inducted yesterday.

Check the thread "Pakistan set to commission first indigenously built submarine".

[corsair7772]

Well done PN 4 the building. Now we shud start joint ventures in designing subs also with china the wasy we did it with the JF-17

[Red aRRow]

The Agosta 90B is enough to counter any Kilo or Scorpane but it still needs anti-ship missiles like Klub-S/N or a sub-launched version of C-803.

When did the submarine appeared here?

U mean Agosta ?? The second submarine was inducted yesterday.

Check the thread "Pakistan set to commission first indigenously built submarine".

I think he meant that it has nothing to do with the topic of stealth ships or something. :alian

[gf0012-aust]

Stealth on a surface ship will only work to a certain point.

Australian Orions have been able to identify people floating in the ocean due to a temperature variation of the body against the water. F111's (and certainly the RF111's) can do the same by using PAVETAC.

The LADS system will also pick up surface ships.

Any airborne system like AWACs, Hawkeyes or Rivet Joint will also identify and pick out a ship on the ocean.

Personally I think that the effort spent on trying to mask a surface vessel would be better spent on subs.

Where it is useful is when the stealth vessel is againsy an unsophisticated opfor with a poor detection suite.

[corsair7772]

And india isnt a poor navy sruggling 2 fulfill its needs. Stealth Frigs agnst it r useless. We shud be gettin Agostas or Frigs 4 our coastal defence and maritime aircraft 2.

[shamsi]

PN's surface fleet is for coastal defence, and the current air surface, and sub-surface platforms are adequate to defend karachi. The ship building program will start after Humza is commisioned.

[corsair7772]

And wat will we build? f-22 frigs? There way 2 advanced. Well have 2 start with gunboats or merchant ships.

[shamsi]

Do you realize the sophistication of 90 Bravo project? F-22 is only a ship, and part of ToT from China. We have already built gunboats and merchant ships in Pakistan.

[Oqaab]

And wat will we build? f-22 frigs? There way 2 advanced. Well have 2 start with gunboats or merchant ships.

Ofcource they are, but they dont have any stealth features. Also, Pakistan will be getting the technology of the hull only.

[shamsi]

And it's the hull that is the key to a small RCS...plus other things. PN Dockyard people are not as backward as you might think...

[gf0012-aust]

Low profile
Reduced footprint
Provide electronic support to other approp forces
Intelligence gathering without compromising the platform.
Low signature
Improved mission seakeeping abilities
Shock mitigation
Stable weapons platform
Excellent station keeping for supporting special warfare operations.
Low wash bow to enable more intrusive patrols to restricted brown water and/or inland waterways and anchorages
Low observability
Long range EW/C4i capabilities
More efficient propeller designs with reduced signature transmission
Reduction of angled surfaces to reduce direct reflection
Inclusion of some angled surfaces to redirect reflection
Contiguous hull and superstructure design
Masking of heat signals to reduce IR detection
Comms masking ability
Passive systems integration

The hulls a fair bit of the stealth capability. get that wrong and it doesn't really matter how good the rest of the stuff is.

[Oqaab]

And it's the hull that is the key to a small RCS...plus other things. PN Dockyard people are not as backward as you might think...

About PN dockyard, ppl there have beed making missile boats and there are still many programs running over missile boats. I remember a project of MPAC multirole warship is also running. It is probably a missile boat as well. So there arent any plans of making a frigate. Unfortunatly.

Comming back to the topic,

Yes, reduced RCS and external features will help a lot in making it stealthy. Radar absorbing paint is also there. But the ship also needs some good speedy missile.

[Su_37]

Well why people call a country wiht 100 billion doller a poor one , india is the fourth country in asia which crossed 100 mark.

India can offored stealths ships wiht little more extra bucks then reguler ships.

[shamsi]

Low profile
Reduced footprint
Provide electronic support to other approp forces
Intelligence gathering without compromising the platform.
Low signature
Improved mission seakeeping abilities
Shock mitigation
Stable weapons platform
Excellent station keeping for supporting special warfare operations.
Low wash bow to enable more intrusive patrols to restricted brown water and/or inland waterways and anchorages
Low observability
Long range EW/C4i capabilities
More efficient propeller designs with reduced signature transmission
Reduction of angled surfaces to reduce direct reflection
Inclusion of some angled surfaces to redirect reflection
Contiguous hull and superstructure design
Masking of heat signals to reduce IR detection
Comms masking ability
Passive systems integration

The hulls a fair bit of the stealth capability. get that wrong and it doesn't really matter how good the rest of the stuff is.

Wouldn't this all be a nice to have all in one platform...

The shipbuilding program is yet to materialize, till Humza is complete, as it's all based on funding. Once the sub is launched, tested, and commisioned, and type 53/f-22 joins, teams will start the ToT for the said contract to Dockyard.

As to speedy missiles, perhaps you are intimidated by Indian supersonic SSMs/ASMs. My friend, if you are afloat, only then can you launch any weapons. Indians often boats the "blitz over Karachi" in 1971, when the leased OSAs fires styx at Karachi. Those days are gone, and it's an EW, endurance, and sustainability war time.