US: F-16s + AWACS for Pakistan - will congress approve?

[Oqaab]

Admin edit: 10-01-Lets change this thread a little bit from upgrading f-16s to providing NEW AC for PAF since there is a lots of news out there saying that US might give f-16s and AWACS to Pakistan to balance out the conventional imbalanced caused by Indian drive to acquire weapons from Israel and other countries.

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US will upgrade F-16s: Pakistan

September 30, 2003 18:47 IST

Pakistan on Tuesday said the United States has agreed to supply it with modern weapons systems and upgrade its fleet of 20-year-old F-16 jets.

"The Pentagon has agreed to help suffice the country's defence needs to effectively check the imbalance of power being created by India in the region," Pakistan Defence Secretary Lieutenant General (retd) Hamid Nawaz said in Islamabad.

However, some of the major items sought by Pakistan have to be approved by the US Congress, including matching systems to counter the Phalcon radar systems being acquired by India from Israel, he said.

He said Pakistan handed over a list of equipment at the Pakistan-US Defence Coordination Group meeting two weeks ago in Washington.

"They agreed to our list except for two, three items that need approval from the US Congress," he said.

However, the joint statement issued after the DCG meeting did not list any major items except supply of spares for 30 F-16s.

http://us.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/30pak1.htm

==========================
I hope US congress will release F-16s for Pakistan.

PEACE

[WebMaster]

Heres a related info... it doesnt talk about upgrades but giving f-16s. I don't know how much of it is true or not. News is news.


US agree to provide F-16: Secretary Defence

ISLAMABAD: United States has agreed to supply F-16 airplanes to Pakistan if the Congress sanctioned the deal. The US will also provide a 341 million dollars aid to Pakistan for purchase of defence, military equipment.

Federal Secretary of Defence Lieutenant General ® Hamid Nawaz Khan addressing a news conference in the Ministry of Defence here briefing about the Pakistan US Defence Consultative Group's recent meeting in Washington.

After lifting of the US sanctions a new era of bilateral defence relations was began between the two countries, he said. The meeting also discussed the war against terrorism, security and stability in the South Asia.




Source (http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en40335&F_catID=&f_type=source)

Edited 10.1.03
US approves the sale of an airborne warning and control system (AWACS), f-16 jets to Pakistan (http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2003-daily/02-10-2003/oped/editorial.htm#1)

[ullu]

Pak might get the jets from belgium!

Pentagon agrees to refurbish F-16 fleet: Belgium may sell jets to Pakistan


By Rafaqat Ali

ISLAMABAD, Sept 30: The Pentagon has agreed to refurbish Pakistan's depleted fleet of F-16s and allow Belgium to sell two squadrons of the aircraft to Pakistan.

However, the Pentagon's acceptance of Islamabad's demand for improving its air force would need approval from the US Congress, said Defence Secretary Hamid Nawaz Khan.

Mr Khan, who had recently led a team to US for procurement of military equipment, told a news conference here on Tuesday that the Pentagon officials had agreed to Pakistan's demand that its fleet of 40 F-16 aircraft should be refurbished. The Pentagon was convinced that the fleet was depleted when Pakistan fought for US interests in Afghanistan after the defunct USSR had invaded it.

"We got full assurance from the Pentagon that Pakistan's demand would be accepted by the US Congress," he said.

The defence secretary said Belgium had some F-16 jets and wanted to sell those to Pakistan but added that a US clearance was needed for the purpose. He said the Pentagon had accepted Pakistan's demand for issuing the clearance certificate to Belgium.

He said the equipment that Pakistan wanted to purchase from the US include a radar system of high quality to match the Indian radar system which it was acquiring from Israel. A clearance from the US Congress would be required for that too, he added.

Without giving details of the weapons systems that Pakistan wanted to purchase under the $3 billion assistance package, the defence secretary said "a major breakthrough was made".

He said the US officials had offered that if Pakistan sent troops to Iraq then they would show "great leniency" in the sale of equipment to it.

In reply to a question what Islamabad had been given in return for extending cooperation to Washington, he said Pakistan had got security and elaborated "the Indians would have done the same to Pakistan what Northern Alliance had done to the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan."

Referring to India's purchase of arms from Israel, the official said the US had been asked to help Pakistan in enhancing its capability, because in case of imbalance in conventional weapons, Pakistan's reliance on nuclear deterrence would increase. The US officials said that Washington had no legal power to stop Israel from selling weapons systems to India, he added.

Mr Khan dispelled the perception that the US aid could be used only for acquiring equipment to counter terrorism. The assistance for combating terrorism was separate from the $3 billion aid package, half of which could be used for military purchases, he elaborated.

He said that issues like emergence of anti-Karazi forces in Afghanistan were also discussed. Pakistan, he pointed out, had been telling the US that guarding the long, porous border with Afghanistan was not possible. He said it was conveyed to the US that Pakistan needed proper equipment to seal the border.

About the US-India growing ties, the official said that US officials had assured them that Washington's relations with Islamabad were independent of its relations with New Delhi.

The defence secretary said Pakistan's indigenization programme was bearing fruit. Pakistan in collaboration with China had developed F-17 Thunder aircraft, he added. Submarines were being developed whose technology was transferred to Pakistan by France, he said and added that Al Khalid tank was one of the best in the world.

The official said that with the passage of time things would get difficult for the US in Afghanistan. He said it would not be possible for Afghanistan for two decades to raise an army that could pose challenge to Pakistan. He, however, stressed that Pakistan wanted to keep good relations with the people of Afghanistan.

The Defence Consultative Group which was co-chaired by US Undersecretary of Defence Douglas J. Feith and Mr Khan also met the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The next meeting will be held in Islamabad.

-Dawn

[PAF GIRL]

here what i found stil needs to be approved by congress! :roll :roll :roll

Pakistan Says U.S. Has Agreed To Refurbish its F-16 Fleet

By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, ISLAMABAD


The United States has agreed to modernize Pakistan’s fleet of F-16 fighter jets and provide fresh military hardware to help in the pursuit of Taliban and al-Qaida fugitives, Pakistan’s top defense bureaucrat was quoted as saying Oct. 1.

“In addition to providing us modern equipment, the U.S. would also modernize and refurbish our existing fleet of F-16 aircraft,” Defense Secretary Hamid Nawaz Khan said according to the official Associated Press of Pakistan (APP).

However the U.S. made no promise to sell additional F-16s to its key war-on-terror ally, a move Pakistan has been seeking ever since the lifting of military sanctions which had prevented the handover of 28 F-16s it purchased in the late 1980s.

Khan was speaking on the outcome of Sept. 15-18 talks between Pakistani and U.S. defense officials in Washington, at which Pakistan presented a list of military equipment needed to curb alleged Taliban infiltrators on its western border with Afghanistan.

“Pakistan has handed over a list of modern equipment required by our three forces including Army, Navy and Air Force,” he said, without specifying the equipment. “They agreed to our list except for two to three items, which need approval from the U.S. Congress.”

Pakistan has been accused by Afghanistan of not doing enough to block infiltration by resurgent Taliban fighters allegedly regrouping in western Pakistani tribal regions.

Richard Armitage, U.S. deputy secretary of state, on Sept. 30 challenged the commitment of Pakistan’s military to blocking the regrouped Taliban, saying in Washington: “I do not think affection for working with us extends up and down the rank-and-file of the Pakistani security community.”

Pakistan says its forces are underequipped to effectively patrol and seal the porous 2,450 kilometer border.

Khan said Pakistan needs from the U.S. “proper surveillance system and financial resources to check any illegal activity” along its border with Afghanistan.

“Whatever our requirements are in the sector, these have to be provided by the U.S. in their own interests,” he said.

The Pentagon said in an official statement in late September that it agreed to prioritize helping Pakistan improve its ability to operate against the Taliban and al-Qaida, particularly in its tribal areas.

[Red aRRow]

I will only believe it when i see the planes. :roll

[Oqaab]

Well, now a days we are hearing several rumours. According to Jang, US will upgrade Pakistani F-16s and will also give some F-16s to make the number of F-16s 40 in PAF. Western sources says that Pakistan is negotiating for 28 F-16s from US and another 20 from belgium ...... :? Anyways, lets see.

[The Watcher]

Slowly and world media is picking up the story... maybe its true?

Islamabad, Oct. 1: The Pentagon has agreed to refurbish Pakistan’s depleted fleet of F-16s and allow Belgium to sell two squadrons of the aircraft to Pakistan.

However, Pentagon’s acceptance of Islamabad’s demand for improving its air force would need an approval from the US Congress, said Pakistan defence secretary Hamid Nawaz Khan.

Rest of it here:
http://www.asianage.com/main.asp?layout=2&cat1=4&cat2=37&newsid=71554&RF=D efaultMain

[Oqaab]

And todays Jang newspaper says that Belgium will take final decision on sell F-16s to Pakistan after 3 months.

[PAF GIRL]

US is not going to approve any weapons sales to Pakistan. Its all talk in the press conferences but actual decisions are made in the congress and we all know who rules there.

[Oqaab]

I read a report yesterday from hindustan times which says that US refused to sell offensive weapons to Pakistan, while Congress hasnt said anything about E-2 hawkeye AWACS for Pakistan.

[umair]

The congress may approve of the 6-10 E2-C Hawkeyes requested for as they are classed as defensive in nature. :roll

[Oqaab]

The congress may approve of the 6-10 E2-C Hawkeyes requested for as they are classed as defensive in nature.

6-10 E-2 hawkeyes ????

Man, one or two are enough for a country like Pakistan. India is getting only 3 Phalcon AWACS systems. :)

[Kung Fu Fighter]

I know Pak is in very serious trouble as its sees India moving leaps and bounds to get ,militarily superior. This is already true as Pakistan's best fighter is the old version of the F-16.
India on the other hand not only has the MIG-29 to counter that threat but has a brand new fighter the SU-32Mk.
Even if US gives Pakistan new F-16s (which is highly unlikely), they will be no match for SU-32Mk. Not no mention India has its own satellites that it can use for surveillance purposes. Pak does not even have a space program.

On another note India is currently upgrading all its MIGs and other fighters with the help of Russia & Israel. China can not provide Pak with the stuff Israel is providing as it too does not have it.

I think that whole region is seeing a big shift in US policy. Its kind of like Turkey that is part of NATO due to strategic reasons.

In this century in South Asia , India has become the strategic partner of the US/Israel. There is no turning back. US sees India not only as an a friend in war against terror(as india is not Islamic, 80% Hindu) but also a nation of over a Billion people who can counter communist China. Having India as a strategic partner will be very help full for US, far more then Pakistan. The cold war is over and Pakistan is no longer considered that important.
Further more many people in Washington are becoming increasingly impatient with Pakistan's in-ability to get Bin laden. Many feel ISI is protecting him.
Pakistan is in big trouble as it now has very few friend who can really help it counter India's military might. Besides the way we see it in the US, Pakistan should not even try to match with India as its a much bigger nation.
I feel it be much better for Pakistan to stop competing with India and blowing billions on stupid arms.
It be better for Pakistan to spend on education like India and produce doctors,engineers and IT professional . India is moving Fwd economically while Pakistan is Flat. If Pakistan does not do something about its economy it will end up like the USSR. Spending more then it earns on defense

[ullu]

IF pakistan can get hawkeyes it will be more than enough.... maybe pakistan with help of china can modify it in the future to extend its range and abilities.

kang-fu, pakistan needs to spend on Defense otherwise war mongers in Indian government would do anything to wage war when they see weak pakistan. Yea doctors and engineers should be the priority but docs and engineers wouldn't save pakistan when extremists from india decide to attack pak. Except china and some friends in middle east I don't think anyone would help. Even if someone wants to help they wouldn't because of US and EU pressure. Israeli along with US do not want to see any islamic country with nukes and so far pakistan is like a big dagger in their hearts-which is good because nukes are the only thing keeping everyone from attacking pakistan. :)

[Black Mamba]

i think it's abt time v started to search for alternate sources of military equipment and stop relying on US hardware
the US has always been an unreliable source for us and it's all talk and no action
they didn't supply us with AWACS at the height of the afghan war and vr expecting them to do that now?
even the british r more reliable than these guys
MR

[Oqaab]

On another note India is currently upgrading all its MIGs and other fighters with the help of Russia & Israel. China can not provide Pak with the stuff Israel is providing as it too does not have it.

Pakistan is also upgrading its Mirage III and Mirage Vs. China is helping us a lot by selling us Frigates with ToT, Tanks with ToT, aircrafts with ToT(some components) and Missiles with ToT. China also offered Pakistan the J-11 (Chinese Su-27) but Pakistan is more interested in F-16s, mirage 2000-5s and Eurofighters.

China will be selling us FT-2000 AWACS killer missiles and Pakistan may get the technology of this missile as well.

I dont think Israel help India that much.

PAK-CHEEN dosti Zindabad.

[ullu]

Israel just gave india Phalcons, if that is not a lota help then what is???

[Kung Fu Fighter]

Pakistan is also upgrading its Mirage III and Mirage Vs. China is helping us a lot by selling us Frigates with ToT, Tanks with ToT, aircrafts with ToT(some components) and Missiles with ToT. China also offered Pakistan the J-11 (Chinese Su-27) but Pakistan is more interested in F-16s, mirage 2000-5s and Eurofighters.

China will be selling us FT-2000 AWACS killer missiles and Pakistan may get the technology of this missile as well.


My Answerto that is : If you do your reaserch you will realize China does not have very High-Tech stuff and can not help Pak too much. All the up grades you mentions are not that great.

You are very wrong about Isreal not helping india. Its a joke that you know so little on the issue. isreal today is the 5 th largest seller of defence products , thanks to india. India is buying about 2/3 billion $ worth of products from them every year (for the last 3/4 years).

Before India started buying stuff from them they were not even ranked num 20 in the world. That should give you a clear idea how much India is buying from them.
On a different note, Israel is at the moment working on the deal to sell India the Arrow missile . Its the best air defensive system in the world produced jointly by Israel/USA.
If India gets that , Pak nukes would be no good as they will be shot down long before hitting there targets.
The bottom line is , no matter how many nukes Pak has, Pak can never win a full scale war with India. India will win . There in no question about that in any ones mind.
If Pak fires a Nuke at India, many will die but India is so big that it will live through it . If a tiny nation like Japan can, India will have no problem.

But guess what will happen to Pakistan in return when India fires back. Pakistan will get wiped out completely. Its so small that it wont survive the multiple strike.

You are also very wrong in the understanding of average Indians. Indians are not war mongers. They don't want any war with any one. Its Pakistan which started this mess by backing militant outfits to fight in Kashmir.

After separation , Pakistan was created and that was it. Pakistan can not come back after a few years and say, we want more land. It does not work that way.

If Pakistan stop's it support for militants in Kashmir you will see a lot of good things happening in that region. India and Pak can become good neighbors giving economic growth, to India/Pakistan.

If Pak does not stop with its obsession of Kashmir , its will be a disaster for all.

Yes you are right about one thing, the Hindu right wing are not like the Gandhi/Nehru who will accept a cease fire from Pakistan in event of a war. They are crazy and will finish Pakistan completely.

I hope there is never a war and that educated people in both countries will work hard to prevent it at all costs.

[Oqaab]

The actual topic was not about Indo-Pak relations or Kashmir, but it was about JF-17 aircraft. So better stick to the topic. :!:

[WebMaster]

Kangfu, please stick with the topic. No need to start india vs pakistan flame wars.

If you wish to speak on the issue please open a new thread along with REFERENCE to your claims and members would be happy to discuss them with you.

Thanks

Admin

[Red aRRow]

U.S.A is a very unreliable supplier. They even took the money for F-16s from Pakistan but did not deliver them!!
I think Pakistani Army is more than capable of withstanding any Indian onslaught.
The Air Force needs a front line fighter to maintain air dominance over the skies. At this moment the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon fit the bill. The JF-17 will be very good for point defence and interception but still some high caliber planes like the two i mentioned are needed. I think Europe should be made a source for hi-tech supplies.

[Winter]

Could Pakistan afford a Eurofighter/Rafale procurement program?

[zain_1985]

I think that the congress has already approved AWACS, but i'm not so sure weather it will approve of the F-16s.

That's why Pakistan is considering other markets for buying advanced jets, like the eurofighter 2000. :)

zain
[/quote]

[SurvivoR]

My answer is don't expect anything from the U.S. Even if we get them (highly unlikely with reference to past deals), they will always be sanction prone. I am even worried about the PAF F-16s that are supposed to get the MLU. What guarantees do we have that they will return even!!!

May Allah have mercy on us. Ameen.
(But remember, Allah helps those, who help themselves).

[razhas]

Assalam o alaekum everybody

I am a new comer to this forum....or more precisely even to any of the defencetalk forums .............

I have read this sort of discussion, i.e. regarding the US supplying or approving this kind of military hardware or of that kind for Pakistan, many a times both at your forums or at pakistanidefence forums...........

many of my brothers really seem pretty worried at what the US might do or might not do..........well neither the US nor the touts backed by the US are gods.......... and al -hamdolillah we as muslims do not believe in any such "gods'............


as far as the military strategy and tactic is concerned ............ in the absence of an advanced frontline fighter, our forces may look vulnerable...... but then there are means and ways to convert your weaknesses into strengths................. and above all making best use of your own strong points........that’s what makes good soldiers good........

and the best virtue of it all is the desire for shahadat and no fear of death of kith and kin or even own........ no matter "they" have advanced planes with greater BVR capability and operational range and reach........... no matter they have planes in greater numbers..........if two of our ghazis in the formation attain the status of shaheeds while providing cover for the third shaheen ghazi who strikes right in the heart of the enmy .........and no matter after doing so also attains shahdat........... then the only thing the enemy will remember next time he tries to enter your airspace is that he will not be able to return to his base no matter how advanced or "stealthy" a plane he is flying.......... and if anybody really knows anything about fighting a war then a jittery soldier is the last thing that an armed force would like to have in its ranks..........


and i would also like to register my utter disgust regarding the views of some .......... these views portray china as a very low profile backward and technologically poor country from whose military hardware and technology Pakistan should distance itself or should not regard as first class...........

first of all if you say or even think about your benefactor in such a manner then not only will you disgrace yourself as an ungrateful and uncivilized nation , but will also invite ALLAH's wrath upon yourself, as he does not like the ppl who would not respect and regard their benefactors.........

and only if such ppl have been looking at the history of china in the distant and recent past (particularly in the 20th century as it is relatively well documented) then it will become as clear as it could be that china has always been a center of cultural as well as technological prowess and also a nation with dignified stance………………and at times despite having relatively inferior or no matching technology or ability, have very well defended itself and held its head high…………………..no wonder we do not pay much attention to our own religion………according to a very famous hadeeth demonstrating the importance of “Ilm”, china is mentioned as a destination for the seekers of “Ilm” …………….and as we all know if it were to be the “ Ilm ad Deen” or knowledge of the religion then there was no Islam in China on the advent of ISalm in Arabia………………..


So my dear friends and brothers…………………….. hold your heads high in front of the foe and bowed in front of the God ALMIGHTY ALLAH subhan wa taalaa and just keep your faith only and only in him and be nice and loving to the benefactors he has provided us with………….


.....ghairat baree hai cheez jahaan e tag o dau mein.................... (iqbal (R.A))


....sher kee aik din kee zindagee geedar kee sau sala zindagee say behtar hai......(tipu sultan (R.A))


.....Down with the USA ...the dajjal of our times...........

[WebMaster]

Razhas, lets keep the tough talk down about USA or any other country. NO reason to defame.

Plus keep in mind that this is not a Pakistani website and everyone here is not Muslim so please respect everyone. :)

Thanks

[Oqaab]

PAF loves F-16s because PAF has been flying this aircraft since 20 years and it had made kills with this aircraft. But now it has to opt for any european fighter.

[shamsi]

PAF loves F-16s because PAF has been flying this aircraft since 20 years and it had made kills with this aircraft. But now it has to opt for any european fighter.

PAF should start mounting F-16s infront of buildings, and keep focussing on making a medium tech fighter and its versions which are fully functional, trainable, effective, and BVR/ECM capable.

[Oqaab]

PAF should start mounting F-16s infront of buildings, and keep focussing on making a medium tech fighter and its versions which are fully functional, trainable, effective, and BVR/ECM capable.

JF-17 is the only fighter PAF will be getting. I think Pakistan should spent more money over research and development in this field and then we will be making the JF-17 100% in Pakistan. Inshallah. :)

[dabrownguy]

That means India is getting good air. Lets hope they get good ground. They already inducted 100 Arjuns and working on Arjun MK 2 with help from Isrealis and Tank Ex. God bless India!

[The Watcher]

That means India is getting good air. Lets hope they get good ground. They already inducted 100 Arjuns and working on Arjun MK 2 with help from Isrealis and Tank Ex. God bless India!

India is getting good air? Please detail it. I completely miss point of rest of your reply.

[elkaboingo]

if china sets up more production lines then j-10 will be available to us sooner

[Su_37]

Razhas, lets keep the tough talk down about USA or any other country. NO reason to defame.

Plus keep in mind that this is not a Pakistani website and everyone here is not Muslim so please respect everyone. :)

Thanks


Wow ...... what a nice way to point put that topic ,ADMN. well you are not so kind with when people write like that about pakistan , you infact block Inflammatory remarks which is specific to pak while let go with other countries .

Well nice speech by this Razahas, i am flattered , but one thing i should remind him that , please start living in today's world and the rea;lity is Pak need USA to bail out from economic and as well as from defence areas.


US congress won't approve it becasue , US Policy will now become , India , china and Russia specific and US will not ignore india's concern .

[Revival_786]

Su_37, you have a extremist mind so put a sock in it.

[WebMaster]

Su-37, stop complaining and tell us where we "let go of other countries" when bias idiots try to defame those countries?

Ever since you came on board defencetalk.com, all you have done is post anti-pakistan articles and opinion. Its like you have some type of agenda, an obsession to post bias and one sided reports. Before telling us what to do, why not start the charity work at home?

Besides, most of our members are pakistanis and their country deserves to be respected as much as anyone elses.

Thank you!

[umair]

Wrong post,Wrong thread.Edited by Umair.
Shamayel delete this one!

[Su_37]

The actual topic was not about Indo-Pak relations or Kashmir, but it was about JF-17 aircraft. So better stick to the topic. :!:

:cop Someone please tell Oqaab that every form is not about JF-17 , it is about US: F-16s + AWACS for Pakistan - will congress approve?

[Su_37]

Su-37, stop complaining and tell us where we "let go of other countries" when bias idiots try to defame those countries?

Ever since you came on board defencetalk.com, all you have done is post anti-pakistan articles and opinion. Its like you have some type of agenda, an obsession to post bias and one sided reports. Before telling us what to do, why not start the charity work at home?

Besides, most of our members are pakistanis and their country deserves to be respected as much as anyone elses.

Thank you!

MOD ADMIN: Stick to the topic. If you have anything to talk about with webmaster, send him a PM! Don't ruin the thread with your whinnings. Understand? Good!

[Revival_786]

Wow, Su_37 you are really messed up.