Kiwi Reactions

[Jason_kiwi]

If NZ got attacked after 2010 what would the reactions be?

Say they detected a fleet of 4 frigates coming in. They would probably send out the two anzacs. Orions would be sent out for support(by then they may have antiship capibilities. The OPV's will be sent out for light fire and with the karmens medium capibility. If the enermy pushes to the coast. The NZ MRV will be sent to Waioru to pick up soliders and fighting vehicles,etc. The MRV will land the gear near the enemy. A fight will be drawn. Mistrils will be in place for incoming air attacks and Javilins will be taking out enermy vehicles. As the fight goes on the OPV's will arrive and will give the troops support. The Orions and karmens will be launching missiles and the ANZAC's will be on standby.

Mayby NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

During exercise joint Kiwi. 2 NZ frigates took out 4 Oz frigates, even although the Oz ones were better armed. It is all about skill, which is what the NZDF has. A missile is launched and the kiwis quickly react by taking it down with the phalanx.

By 2010 the LAVs,LOVs,Javilin,OPV,MRV,IPV,orion upgrades,NH90 helis, direct fire support weapons and missile and torp upgrades will be introduced. Making the kiwi defence better than ever. NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

[EnigmaNZ]

If NZ got attacked after 2010 what would the reactions be?

Say they detected a fleet of 4 frigates coming in. They would probably send out the two anzacs. Orions would be sent out for support(by then they may have antiship capibilities. The OPV's will be sent out for light fire and with the karmens medium capibility. If the enermy pushes to the coast. The NZ MRV will be sent to Waioru to pick up soliders and fighting vehicles,etc. The MRV will land the gear near the enemy. A fight will be drawn. Mistrils will be in place for incoming air attacks and Javilins will be taking out enermy vehicles. As the fight goes on the OPV's will arrive and will give the troops support. The Orions and karmens will be launching missiles and the ANZAC's will be on standby.

Mayby NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

During exercise joint Kiwi. 2 NZ frigates took out 4 Oz frigates, even although the Oz ones were better armed. It is all about skill, which is what the NZDF has. A missile is launched and the kiwis quickly react by taking it down with the phalanx.

By 2010 the LAVs,LOVs,Javilin,OPV,MRV,IPV,orion upgrades,NH90 helis, direct fire support weapons and missile and torp upgrades will be introduced. Making the kiwi defence better than ever. NZ will be able to hold off an attack.

Some flies in the ointment Jason hehe. One of the Anzacs would probably be on an overseas deployment, the other undergoing it's refit. One of the Orions will take off, only to turn back with engine trouble, the government will meantime be passing the blame around for putting off the harpoon upgrade and letting the fighters go. The OPV will keep well clear, with a piddly 25mm they are next to useless in such a fight, but the Kamens and Orions go in with Mavericks, most get taken out before getting in range by long range SAMs. However some Mavs are launched and a Frigate is badly damaged before the Kamens are out of the fight, destroyed. The Orions, big targets but with self defensive decoys deployed come off a little better, of the 5 launched, only 3 are shot down, 2 return to base. The Frigates get to shore, the MRV is sent to Waioru but is unable to upload as it can't travel overland, Waioru is in the middle of the country, and anyway as Waioru is a training base, most of the North Island ground units are at Linton. Those units are duely loaded and the MRV sets off, it is sighted by one of the frigates helos, and a cruise missile is launched, sending her to the bottom. The enemy, having only Frigates, do not carry any ground vehicles, but demolition sappers are sent off to wreck havoc. All the Mistrals and Javelins were lost on the MRV. The railway and the highway north are destroyed before the LAVs and artillary get past the Bombays. It is winter and the ground is too boggy for the LAV's to go off road. Just when all is thought to be lost, the private volunteer Confederate Air Force arrives on the scene with their Mig 21, Catalina, and sundry other ex WW2 aircraft, loaded with munitions scrounged from various museums and while the Frigate crews are falling over laughing, proceed to take each out with a well placed WW2 heavy weight torpedo, the Mig meanwhile shoots the helo's down, the sappers are captured by several irate farmers with shotguns, pitchforks and pig dogs, and the Government fall over each other in their race to take the credit for the defeat of the enemy, lol.

[driftder]

Bravo! Splendid! Good scenario ending. You forgot to put in a role for the FPDA and NZ's other allies e.g. Singapore, Britain. And what about the SAS, air force with the Skyhawks? :p:

[Jason_kiwi]

ok,the equipment from Waioru are ready at the shore line and are loaded on by landinmg craft. An enemy heli does not take the ship out because the ship reaches the landing zone. The enemy heli is takin out earlier by a seasparrow. Missiles that get fired at the ANZACs are repelled by the skill of the PHALANX.The Mavricks take out 1 frig. Our frigs take out atleast 2(as show in exercise kiwi, 2 anzacs took out 4 Oz anzacs) sso 1 frigate remains. It goes as an all out battle, and NZ wins.

By 2010 the orions will be upgraded and hopefully the ANZAC's, so by then we will have a better capibility.

[Jason_kiwi]

Bravo! Splendid! Good scenario ending. You forgot to put in a role for the FPDA and NZ's other allies e.g. Singapore, Britain. And what about the SAS, air force with the Skyhawks? :p:

The NZDF was designed to hold off an attack untill help comes, which is what it is capible of.

[nz enthusiast]

and you forgot the guy who can make cruise missiles in his garage. We will send the surf lifesavers in there inflatables to also, Australia shows up because they are bored of looking at Indonesia all day, when they turn up you might as well consider the enemy frigates gone....

[gf0012-aust]

The NZDF was designed to hold off an attack untill help comes, which is what it is capible of.

at an air level alone - Not with 3 airworthy scooters - and definitely not with maverick armed orions.

remember the orions need CAP - they're unable to defend themselves. they're not railed for air defence/self protection

as for 2 x NZ ANZACs knocking off 4 x Oz ANZACs - AFAIK we've never had 4 ANZACs all at one exercise. - apart from that, exercises aren't scripted like that. A local reference would be nice, I don't have any records indicating any of what you've said re NavEx's.

NavEx's are like DACT, they're designed around training scenarios - not around establishing a winner and a loser.

[EnigmaNZ]

Who do the frigates belong to, what is the purpose of their attack on NZ, I can't see the point unless they were intending to mine the approaches to Auckland to keep our forces bottled up, I really can't think of anything else. To spy, come in as a tourist. To sink our naval forces to prevent them joining in a larger battle somewhere, perhaps an allie has been attacked, maybe, though sending 4 frigates here would indicate it is a fairly major power, in which case, what we can add to a jpoint task force would be inconsequential.

[Stryker001]

Australia would not allow a hypothetical attack of that nature to occur to our allie NZ. One because it's in our region, second due to the ANZAC history we share with our NZ brothers.

If a Hypothetical attack of that nature occurred it would mean that Australia would already be engaged in operations, be it offensive or in a defence fashion, in which case I would assume NZ would already be involved.

[Aussie Digger]

Jason, the first time a single ASM was fired at a New Zealand frigate, from a foreign vessel a tactical withdrawal (the polite way of saying running away) would immediately occur. This is no reflection on the courage or ability of RNZN sailors and RNZAF airmen. The RNZAF and RNZN ANZAC frigate are simply not equipped to tackle ASM equipped ships.

Te Kaha and Te Kana possess minimal ASM defences (the Phalanx is a LAST ditch weapon, not an immediate response). The Sea sparrow SAM system is designed to shoot down aircraft, not ASM's.

I'd also imagine your Naval exercise you refer to was operating with either "notional equipment levels" or ignoring particular capabilities of the RAN frigates. For instance how could a RNZN ANZAC frigate "deal" with repeated Harpoon II missile shots, bearing in mind that the Harpoon missile has a 130k range, let alone a helo armed missile capability? Do you think a Navy would fire a single missile and see what happens? Particularly one that outnumbered it's opponent 2 to 1...

[Jason_kiwi]

If you had a look at the start of the thread, I said 2010. Which means by then the RNZN ANZAC's probably will have harpoon missiles. And what would an Oz frigate go if a french frigate fired a missile at it, it would get out of their too.(the reson I said france is because it is a country alot bigger than Oz.

[gf0012-aust]

If you had a look at the start of the thread, I said 2010. Which means by then the RNZN ANZAC's probably will have harpoon missiles. And what would an Oz frigate go if a french frigate fired a missile at it, it would get out of their too.(the reson I said france is because it is a country alot bigger than Oz.

Interestingly enough a few of us have wargamed a theoretical against a French Strike Force (incl N Carrier) launching a raid from New Caledonia ( the only close logistical point)

In every scenario the French got a hiding.

There are only two countries capable of mounting an expeditionary event against Oz - and it's not the French in that group. Even the US acknowledges that war against Oz is very unattractive for a variety of reasons.

Jason you really need to study warfighting and comprehend logistics rather than get excited about single platform capability.

The bottom line is that NZ is unable to defend her shores with her current fleet - even in 5 years time. The chances of NZ getting Harp2 are almost negligible unless there is a dramatic change to her threat matrix.

Mil spending is still dirty word in NZ.

[Jason_kiwi]

What do u mean 2 countries? Germany,france,tones, even NZ could send a few frigs upto the coast and take out a few 100 000 people.

[gf0012-aust]

What do u mean 2 countries? Germany,france,tones, even NZ could send a few frigs upto the coast and take out a few 100 000 people.

I assume that you're joking. Are you seriously trying to state on a public forum that Germany, France and/or NZ are capable of mounting expeditionary warfare on an island continent?

NZ doesn't even have the basics for low level insertion expeditionary events.

Try and study force protection and logistics before commenting.

[Jason_kiwi]

I said nz could go in a kill a pile of people before getting pushed back out.

Any big country like germany,france,uk,us,china and countried that hav a big naval force and large airforce could easily take over

[gf0012-aust]

Any big country like germany,france,uk,us,china and countried that hav a big naval force and large airforce could easily take over

Once again, try and study force protection and logistics before commenting.

Go away for a week and try and learn something about expeditonary warfare (even the Falklands will be a useful example) and then come back to continue the discussion.

If you aren't going to make the effort to understand how complex this subject is, then you aren't going to get very far.

There are 5 x essential "P's" in warfighting at an intercontinental expeditionary level - France, Germany and definitely NZ don't have them in place.

When you demonstrate to me that you can grasp even the basics of what is required (and it's not warload) then we might begin to make some progress.

[nz enthusiast]

New Zealand lacks the ability to supply its frigates with ammunitions at sea, so we would blast off our guns and then we would become cannon fudder. France, Germany etc aren't actually that amazing if you look through the size of their navy, and compare into the number of ships countries like Germany and the US had in WW2 they know were near anygood.

There is actually no first world country in the world now that could actually take over another first world country without taking an obsolute knocking in the process. Know one really stands out from the crowd, most countries have some capability to protect themselves, and have a whole heap of friends and allies. No one will try anything in the fear of being gang bashed.

The ANZAC frigates aren't in any state for real combat, they carry all that they need to do patroling, and sometimes not even that. The NZ government even knows the frigates aren't ready and say they won't send them in unless they get the upgrading comparable to what Australia is giving theres. Even the Canterbury (no being retired) could have given the nz anzac frigates some trouble. The anzac is just not fit for real warfare.

[EnigmaNZ]

Jason, it seems you are unable or unwilling to listen or learn from those who actually have spent their lives working in defence, you are throwing various threads and scenerios around looking for someone to agree with you and say that NZ's defence forces are kick arse, they are not. It is pointless saying that this and that MAY BE done in 5 years, when we could have several changes of government in that time, ignoring the changes in the world climate over the next 5 years. Look at the 2 additional Anzac options and the F-16's, both were agreed to and funded, but were are they.
You are too young to be an expert in defence, you really do not know everything when it comes to defence, NZ's or anyones elses. You are keen and enthusiatic, good, stop this NZ defence is great BS and use this forum to learn and ask questions on points you don't understand, but listen and learn. If you want to join our navy and one day command one of our ships, then you are going to need to be able to study, learn, accept weaknesses, strategise, look for your strenghts and the oppositions weaknesses etc. If you go in with this current altitude you are going to get yourself and the men under you killed.
In video games, the weak are always winning over incredible odds, same as in the movies, but that isn't real, in real life the strong generally win over the weak. That is reality.
War and the preparation for it is not a simple exercise of platforms and weapons, as Gary oftens points out, it has everything to do with behind the scenes planning and supply. Japan and Germany lost WW2 because both thought that "mine is better than yours" and both were proved wrong. A plane is no good with no av gas, a ship useless when the weapons are expended. If a warship is attacked these days, it will not be 1 subsonic missile, it will be many, from different directions, and they could be supersonic and manuvering. A phalanx is almost at the point where it is becoming ineffective in preventing a warhead getting through, and it only takes 1. Hence the move to RAM and directed energy weapons. Sea sparrows are designed to take down aircraft, not missiles, so if a couple of missiles are launched at an Anzac, it is probably going to be hit. If launched at the MRV, OPV, Endeavour or any other of our ships, they are dead. If someone has told you that a MSI Bushmaster can shot down a missile, they are wrong, if the radar directed computer controlled close coupled phalanx is stretched, well you see the point.
We are sending troops overseas and expecting our allies to protect them. A lot of our shipping has to traverse the waters north west of Australia where pirates abound, and where future tensions over resources could boil over into regional conflict, should we expect our allies to escort our shipping. If Australia is invaded by a country low on resources and crowded and seeing Oz as a way to relieve it's population pressure and lack of resources, Australia is going to need help from it's friends, the US will almost certainly help her, can we, do we have the capability or are we only takers. When the debate was on over the LAV's, one comment was that a C-130 with a LAV couldn't carry enough fuel to make Australia. We couldn't send fighters to help defend her airspace, our Orions can't help to defend her and our shipping from submarines or ships, the Anzacs would have to keep their distance due to their inability to defend against more than 1 subsonic missile attack at a time.
Our forces are inadequent even for the peacekeeping role assigned to them, the defence budget is inadequent to provide a decent force structure. Remember, whenever we say that an allie can carry part of our load, we are really saying that we are expecting their taxpayers to do so, when they have the same pressures for improved health and education and social services as we have, why should they go without to help us when we are not much of an effort ourselves.
Me thinks I have just unloaded a lot of my own fustrations in this diatribe lol. I hope I haven't offended too many with my rant :D

[driftder]

A very good point by point observation. Especially the part about future tensions over resources boiling over into regional conflict. A few countries in ASEAN that might be embroiled in such future conflicts are renewing their budget for arms purchases, including mine.

Still I would like to remind that we would come if you called, those under the FPDA agreement. A personal observation - I have worked with Anzacs before when they are based with us. They are tops and I include not just their SF but the plain infantry and staff too. They have a high spirit of innovation and cockiness that rubs off and impress, regardless of their TOE.

A proper solution, if I dare say so, is for the NZ govt to acknowledge that the world is a not so nice place nowaday as before and that security and military spending is a must, no matter how reprehensible it might be. A steadfast budget allocation for defense over the next few years, regardless of the political party in power, will be the right fix but it won't be immediate. It will be over a period of time - 10 years perhaps? Just my 2 cents, and please correct any errors on my part.

[Aussie Digger]

The RAN would deal with a French Frigate, the same way as anyone else (similiarly equipped) would. ANZAC frigates don't generally work on their own (except NZ as it doesn't have any other options). Both RAN ANZAC and FFG frigates are being equipped with Harp2.

HMAS Warramunga (ANZAC Class) already has them and the rest of class is to be equipped by 2006. No French ASM (to the best of my knowledge) possesses the range that Harp2 does, with the exception of the Block 3 version of the MM-40 Exocet. This missile however is not yet in service.

In addition, the French 100mm guns they use on their frigates are markedly inferior to the 127mm Mk 45 Mod 2 guns on ANZAC class frigates in terms of range and effects and only marginally superior to the 76mm gun fitted to the FFG's.

The RAN's ANZAC class frigates will be fitted with the new ESSM, (3 of the class of 8 are already fitted with ESSM) which is specifically designed to destroy new generation anti-ship missiles, including supersonic missiles. The ANZAC's will also be fitted with additional fire control capabilities incorporating a second channel of fire (ie: an ability to engage 2 threats simultaneously) and 2 new close in weapon systems by 2010.

The RAN's FFG's are being upgraded and fitted with SM-2 Block IIIA long range surface to air missiles and ESSM. Their radar systems are also being upgraded and whilst not quite achieving AEGIS type capabilities, they aren't far off and are becoming the most capable FFG class frigate in the world. The upgrades should be completed easily by 2010.

Try some conducting some research into these capabilities and you'll see just what people are talking about here. These sorts of capabilities make the RAN ships compare very favourably to any similar class of ships in ANY Navy. Without trying to be insulting, the RNZN would probably drool over a possibility of acquiring a similar capability. The French might too...

[Supe]

Interestingly enough a few of us have wargamed a theoretical against a French Strike Force (incl N Carrier) launching a raid from New Caledonia ( the only close logistical point)

In every scenario the French got a hiding.




Is there a source for this. I'd be interested in reading more. The French are upgrading their Amphibious assets and have a sizeable Navy which if memory serves is now the largest in the E.U, thanks to RN downsizing. The French do have the ability to project power. I'm not aware of their logistical capabilities....but if New Caledonia was their launching pad, then they could pre-position large stocks of consumables. Aus/NZ Intelligence in New Caledonia would be key here.

What were the parameters of the war game? Strike/Invasion? Did it factor in French subs which have a numerical advantage over Aus....

[Stryker001]

Any big country like germany,france,uk,us,china and countried that hav a big naval force and large airforce could easily take over

In this hypothetical attack you speak of, other than our allies who would not stand by to allow this to happen as one of our friends from Singapore pointed out. I am sure that there are other measures that are available to make such a hypothetical invasion a TOTALLY non viable option. If you are talking about gaining property that is.

[gf0012-aust]

Is there a source for this. I'd be interested in reading more. The French are upgrading their Amphibious assets and have a sizeable Navy which if memory serves is now the largest in the E.U, thanks to RN downsizing. The French do have the ability to project power. I'm not aware of their logistical capabilities....but if New Caledonia was their launching pad, then they could pre-position large stocks of consumables. Aus/NZ Intelligence in New Caledonia would be key here.

What were the parameters of the war game? Strike/Invasion? Did it factor in French subs which have a numerical advantage over Aus....

Nothing publicly available as it was an internal think tank and very unofficial - although everyone does similar exercises. The US used to plan around invading the UK (assuming that the Soviets made it to the channel and then slapped the UK so as to get hold of the North Sea Oil Rigs)

fundamental parameters were:

3 month lead up (progressive decay in relationship)
no allied intervention
no nukes
no overflights permitted for french aircraft by regional countries (FPDA issues etc...) - hence the necessity to have the French achieve local air by bringing in the Carrier and support group.

The exercise in French terms would be a disaster due to the demon of logistics, tempo, persistence, projection etc...

scenarios revolved around aggressive sub use and the heavy use of specforces to sabotage french assets in NC, and attacking their wagon trains.

The French nuke subs are only an advantage in real terms for long range strike. We also know that in some areas the Collins have some tactical advantages over a nuke.

To undertake an intercontinental expeditionary event is not a trivial exercise, and eventually you have to get boots on ground and then sieze and hold. The numbers required to achieve that and neutralise all the critical tactical points in a country the size of australia at the same time really makes it an exercise in tactical futility.

[Jason_kiwi]

Germany:
Type 124 destroyers
Displacement: 5,960 tons full load
Dimensions: 143 x 17.2 x 7 meters meters (469 x 56 x 22.4 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts; 2 cruise diesels, 19,848 bhp, 1 LM2500 boost
gas turbine, 32,500 shp, 29 knots
Crew: 225 + 14 flag
Aviation: helicopter deck and hangar for 2 Lynx helos
Radar: APAR 3-D multifunction
Sonar: DSQS-21B
EW: FL-1800S II intercept, chaff
Armament: 32 cell VLS (24 SM-2MR and 32 ESSM), 8 Harpoon SSM, 2 21-cell
RAM launchers, 76 mm OTO DP, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes, 2 20 mm
New AAW ships to replace the Lutjens class.

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
[F219 Sachsen 12/2003 trials]
[F220 Hamburg 12/2004 building]
[F221 Hessen 12/2005 building]

Lutjens (CF Adams) class (Type 103B) air defense destroyers
Displacement: 4,720 tons full load
Dimensions: 134.4 x 14.4 x 4.5 meters (441 x 47 x 15 feet)
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 2 boilers, 2 shafts, 70,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 340
Radar: SPS-40 2-D air search, SPS-52 3-D air search, SPQ-9
Sonar: DSQS-21B hull
Fire Control: 2 SPG-51C missile control, 1 SPG-60 gun control
EW: FL-1800 SII intercept/jammer, 2 SRBOC
Armament: 1 Mk13 launcher (40 SM-1MR/Harpoon missiles), 1 8 cell
ASROC launcher, 2 5/54 DP, 2 21 cell RAM, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes,
2 20mm
Variants of the US CF Adams class DDG, US built for export.
Have suffered severe machinery problems and are overdue for
replacement. One unit discarded.

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
D185 Lutjens 1969 Kiel
D186 Molders 1969 Kiel

Brandenburg class (Type 123) frigates
Displacement: 4,490 tons full load
Dimensions: 138.9 x 16.7 x 6.3 meters (455.5 x 57 x 20.5 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts: 2 cruise diesels, 11,400 shp, 18 knots, plus
2 LM2500 boost turbines, 51,680 shp, 29 knots
Crew: 219
Aviation: aft helicopter deck and hangar; 2 Lynx helicopters
Radar: 1 LW-08 air search, 1 SMART-S air/surface search
Sonar: DSQS-23BZ hull
Fire Control: 2 STIR-18 missile control
EW: FL-1800 SII intercept/jammer, 2 decoy RL
Armament: 4 MM38 Exocet SSM, VLS for 16 Sea Sparrow SAM, 1 76 mm
OTO DP, 2 21 cell RAM, 4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes, 2 20 mm

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
F215 Brandenburg 1994 Wilhelmshaven
F216 Schleswig-Holstein 1995 Wilhelmshaven
F217 Bayern 1996 Wilhelmshaven
F218 Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 1996 Wilhelmshaven

Bremen (Kortenear) class (Type 122) frigates
Displacement: 3,800 tons full load
Dimensions: 130 x 14.4 x 4.26 meters (440 x 48 x 20 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts: 2 cruise diesels, 10,400 bhp, 18 knots;
2 LM2500 boost turbines, 50,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 200
Aviation: aft helicopter deck and hangar; 2 Lynx helicopters
Radar: DA-08 air search
Sonar: DSQS-21BX hull
Fire Control: WM-25 weapons control, 2 STIR-18 missile control
EW: FL-1800S intercept, 4 SRBOC, SLQ-25 Nixie
Armament: 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8 cell Sea Sparrow SAM (24 missiles
total, manual reload), 1 76 mm OTO DP, 4 12.75 inch TT, 2 21 cell RAM,
2 20mm
German version of the Dutch Kortanear class. Being modernized
with TRS 3-D radar in place of DA-08, FL-1800 II in place of
FL-1800S EW, new communications, and new computers.

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
F207 Bremen 1982 Wilhelmshaven
F208 Niedersachsen 1982 Wilhelmshaven
F209 Rheinland-Pfalz 1983 Wilhelmshaven
F210 Emden 1983 Wilhelmshaven
F211 Koln 1984 Wilhelmshaven
F212 Karlsruhe 1984 Wilhelmshaven
F213 Augsburg 1989 Wilhelmshaven
F214 Lubeck 1990 Wilhelmshaven

Type 130 light frigates
Displacement: approx. 1580 tons
Dimensions: 88 x 13.2 meters (281.5 x 42 feet)
Propulsion: Diesel, 30 knots
Crew: approx. 50
Aviation: 2 drone helicopters
Armament: 8 Harpoon SSM, 8 Polyphem SSM, 1 21 cell RAM launcher,
2 76 mm OTO DP
New "corvette" project intended to replace patrol boats; 6
to be built, first to commission in 2005-2006.


Submarines
Type 212A submarines
Displacement: 1,830 tons submerged
Dimensions: 56 x 7 x 6 meters
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, AIP, 1 diesel, 1 shaft, 4,243 hp, 20 knots
Crew: 27
Sonar: CSU-90 suite with bow, flank and towed arrays
Armament: 6 21 inch torpedo tubes; 12 torpedoes (plus 24 external mines)
A new-design submarine, significantly larger than previous boats.

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
[S181 U31 2003 building]
[S182 U32 2004 ordered]
[S183 U33 2005 ordered]
[S184 U34 2006 ordered]

Type 206A small coastal submarines
Displacement: 520 tons submerged
Dimensions: 48.6 x 4.7 x 4.3 meters (159.5 x 15 x 14 feet)
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 2 diesels, 2 shafts, 2,300 shp, 17 knots
Crew: 22
Sonar: DBQS-21D active, AN5039A1 passive
Armament: 8 21 inch torpedo tubes (16 torpedoes & mines),
24 external mines
Small coastal submarines; all survivors upgraded to 206A standard.

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
S194 U15 1974 Eckernforde
S195 U16 1973 Eckernforde
S196 U17 1973 Eckernforde
S197 U18 1973 Eckernforde
S171 U22 1974 Eckernforde
S172 U23 1975 Eckernforde
S173 U24 1974 Eckernforde
S174 U25 1974 Eckernforde
S175 U26 1975 Eckernforde
S177 U28 1974 Eckernforde
S178 U29 1974 Eckernforde
S179 U30 1975 Eckernforde


Patrol Craft
Gepard (S71) class (Type 143) missile boats
Displacement: 390 tons full load
Dimensions: 57.6 x 7.76 x 2.56 meters (189 x 25.5 x 7 feet)
Propulsion: 4 diesels, 4 shafts, 16,000 bhp, 32 knots
Crew: 34
Fire Control: 1 WM-27 weapons control
EW: FL-1800 intercept, chaff
Armament: 4 MM38 Exocet SSM, 1 76 mm OTO DP, 1 21 cell RAM

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
P6121 Gepard (S71) 1982 Warnemuende
P6122 Puma (S72) 1983 Warnemuende
P6123 Hermelin (S73) 1983 Warnemuende
P6124 Nerz (S74) 1983 Warnemuende
P6125 Zobel (S75) 1983 Warnemuende
P6126 Frettchen (S76) 1983 Warnemuende
P6127 Dachs (S77) 1984 Warnemuende
P6128 Ozelot (S7 1984 Warnemuende
P6129 Wiesel (S79) 1984 Warnemuende
P6130 Hyane (S80) 1984 Warnemuende

Albatros (S61) class (Type 143) missile boats
Displacement: 393 tons full load
Dimensions: 57.6 x 7.76 x 2.56 meters (188.5 x 26 x 8 feet)
Propulsion: 4 diesels, 4 shafts, 16,000 bhp, 38 knots
Crew: 34
Fire Control: 1 WM-27 weapons control
EW: DR2000 intercept, chaff
Armament: 4 MM38 Exocet SSM, 2 76 mm OTO DP, 2 21 inch ASW torpedo tubes

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
P6111 Albatros (S61) 1976 Warnemuende
P6112 Falke (S62) 1976 Warnemuende
P6113 Geier (S63) 1976 Warnemuende
P6114 Bussard (S64) 1976 Warnemuende
P6115 Sperber (S65) 1976 Warnemeunde
P6116 Greif (S66) 1976 Warnemuende
P6117 Kondor (S67) 1976 Warnemuende
P6118 Seeadler (S6 1977 Warnemuende
P6119 Habicht (S69) 1977 Warnemuende
P6120 Kormoran (S70) 1977 Warnemuende

Tiger (S41) class (Type 14 missile boats
Displacement: 264 tons full load
Dimensions: 47 x 7.1 x 2.66 meters (154 x 23 x 7 feet)
Propulsion: 4 diesels, 4 shafts, 12,000 bhp, 36 knots
Crew: 30
Radar: Triton-G air/surface search
Fire Control: Castor-CSF weapons control
EW: DR2000 intercept, chaff
Armament: 4 MM38 Exocet SSM, 1 76 mm OTO DP, 1 40 mm AA
Gradually being decommissioned.

Number Name Year Homeport Notes
P6148 Lowe (S4 1974 Olpenitz
P6150 Panther (S50) 1974 Olpenitz
P6153 Pelikan (S53) 1974 Olpenitz
P6155 Alk (S55) 1975 Olpenitz
P6156 Dommel (S56) 1975 Olpenitz
P6157 Weihe (S57) 1975 Olpenitz
P6158 Pinguin (S51975 Olpenitz
P6159 Reiher (S59) 1975 Olpenitz

Even a small country like Greece
Surface Combatants
Kimon (CF Adams) class air defense destroyers
Displacement: 4,825 tons full load
Dimensions: 113.19 x 14.32 x 6.1 meters (371.5 x 47 x 20 feet)
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 2 boilers, 2 shafts, 70,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: approx. 340-350
Radar: SPS-40B 2-D air search, SPS-39A 3-D air search
Sonar: DE1191 hull
Fire Control: 2 SPG-51C missile control, 1 SPG-53A gun control
EW: SLQ-32(V)2 intercept, SLQ-20 intercept, SLQ-25 Nixie
Armament: 1 Mk13 missile launcher (34 SM-1MR SAM + 6 Harpoon SSM),
2 5/54 DP, 1 8-cell ASROC (4 reloads in some ships), 2 triple 12.75
inch torpedo tubes
Ex-USN.

Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
DDG 218 Kimon 1962/91 Ex-DDG 18
DDG 219 Nearchos 1963/92 Ex-DDG 24
DDG 220 Formion 1964/92 Ex-DDG 16

Ipiros (Knox class) ASW frigate
Displacement: 4,250 tons full load
Dimensions: 133.5 x 14.17 x 7.46 meters (438 x 46.5 x 24.5 feet)
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 2 boilers, 1 shaft, 35,000 shp, 27 knots
Crew: appox. 250
Aviation: aft helicopter deck and hangar; 1 AB-212
Radar: SPS-40B 2-D air search
Sonar: SQS-26CX bow, SQR-18 towed
Fire Control: SPG-53 gun control
EW: SLQ-32(V)5 active/passive, SLQ-25 Nixie
Armament: 8-cell ASROC (16 ASROC), 1 5/54 DP, 1 20 mm Phalanx CIWS,
4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes
Ex-USN. Two of the three acquired in 1992 have been decommissioned.

Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
F456 Ipiros 1969/92 Ex-FF 1056

Elli (Kortenaer/Standard) class frigates
Displacement: 3,786 tons full load
Dimensions: 130.2 x 14.4 x 4.4 meters (427 x 47 x 14.5 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts, 2 RM1C cruise gas turbines, 9,800 shp, 20 knots;
2 TM3B boost gas turbines, 51,600 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 200
Aviation: aft helicopter deck and hangar; 2 AB-212
Radar: LW-08 2-D air search
Sonar: SQS-505 hull
Fire Control: WM-25 missile control, STIR-18 missile control, SEWACO II
combat system
EW: Sphinx intercept, 2 SRBOC, SLQ-25 Nixie
Armament: 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell Sea Sparrow launcher (24 missiles,
manual reload), 1 76 mm OTO DP (2 in first 2 units), 1 20 mm Phalanx
CIWS (2 in first 2 units), 4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes
All ex-Dutch; first two sold while under construction, others
transferred after several years in Dutch service.

Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
F450 Elli 1981 Ex-P. Floresz
F451 Limnos 1982 Ex-W.d.With
F459 Adrias 1979/94 Ex-Callenburgh
F460 Aegeon 1980/93 Ex-Banckert
F461 Navarino 1980/95 Ex-V.Kinsbergen
F462 Kountouriotis 1978/97 Ex-Kortenaer
F463 Bouboulina 1983/01 Ex-Pieter Florisz]
F464 ? 1983/01 Ex-Jan Van Brakel]

Ydra class (MEKO 200 type) frigates
Displacement: 3,100 tons full load
Dimensions: 117.5 x 14.8 x 6 meters (395.5 x 48.5 x 19.5 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts; 2 cruise diesels, 10,400 bhp, 21 knots;
2 LM2500-30 boost gas turbines, 60,600 shp, 31.75 knots
Crew: 173
Aviation: aft helicopter deck and hangar; 1 SH-60
Radar: MW-08 3-D air search, DA-08 early warning
Sonar: DE1160 hull
Fire Control: 2 STIR-18
EW: APECS-II intercept, 4 SRBOC, SLQ-25 Nixie
Armament: 8 Harpoon SSM, VLS for 16 Sea Sparrow SAM, 1 5/54 DP,
2 20 mm Phalanx CIWS, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes
First built in Germany, others in Greece. Two more may be
built, with an extended hull and Mk41 VLS.

Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
F452 Ydra 1992
F453 Spetsai 1996
F454 Psara 1998
F455 Salamis 1998


Submarines

Katsonis class (Type 214) submarines
Displacement: 1,700+ tons submerged
Dimensions: 64 x 6.3 meters
Propulsion: Diesel-electric and AIP, 20 knots
Crew: approx. 30
Sonar:
Armament: 8 21 inch torpedo tubes
German-design; first to be built in Germany and the others assembled
in Greece.

Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
[?? Katsonis building]
[?? ?? ordered]
[?? ?? ordered]
[?? ?? option]

Glavkos class (Type 209/1100 and 209/1200) coastal submarines
Displacement: 1,207 tons submerged (second 4: 1,285 tons submerged)
Dimensions: 54.1 x 6.2 x 5.9 meters (177.5 x 20 x 19 feet)
(second 4: 56.1 meters/184 feet long)
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 4 diesels, 1 shaft, 5,000 shp, 22 knots
Crew: 31
Sonar: CSU 83/90 suite (second 4: AN626 passive, AN406 active)
Armament: 8 21 inch torpedo tubes (14 torpedoes + Harpoon SSM in
first four)
All German-built. First four recently overhauled and upgraded.

Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
S110 Glavkos 1971
S111 Nereus 1972
S112 Triton 1972
S113 Proteus 1972
S116 Poseidon 1979
S117 Amfrititi 1979
S118 Okeanos 1979
S119 Pontos 1980

[EnigmaNZ]

Was there a purpose to this post, there is no comment attached.

[Jason_kiwi]

I did not say NZ could invade Oz I said if we did go in we could cause damage. Honestly do you think a country of 4mil could take on a country of 20mil? offcoarse not. I just said when the anzacs get upgraded(if) NZ will be much more capible.

[EnigmaNZ]

We would not cause any damage Jason.
1. If they knew we were coming to cause damage we would be sunk by their FFG's, or upgraded Anzacs, or a Collins, or a F-111, F-18, Orion, all of which can launch long range antiship missiles. They are even possibly acquiring Tomahawk in which case they could sink the Anzac at the pier.
2. The upgrades are not a given till they are completed. If National last 1 term, Labour will be in before 2010.
However any upgrade will be welcome, depends what the government of the day percieves the threat matrix (I can use it too Gary lol) to be, and whether they want to spend the money on reducing or eliminating the threat.

[gf0012-aust]

Jason, if you're going to try and argue numbers then at least copy the right ones... ;)

I'm not sure the Greeks wanted to try and invade Australia. ;)

[Jason_kiwi]

They will not think we are coming to attack,thats the thing, it could be on an exercise. Say they are going on an exercise, they load the gear off in,say brisbane,the f-18s will not launch a missile because it will harm to many civilians, the LAV and javilin will be firing at random buildings destroying hundreds of lives, but this will never happen. What I was trying to say from the start is that ANY country can kill millions of people with the elimant of suprise. I am not trying to prove NZ is the best, what I am saying is we could cause damage with suprise, but why cause any damage anyway? There is no point, I was just saying that we could if we had a phyco for a NZ Leader.

[Aussie Digger]

Well Jason, you're probably not that familiar with Brisbane, so I'll give a little geography lesson. The MRV could not make it to the centre of Brisbane due to the bridges. It would forced to try and unload it's LAV's and Javelin's further out possibly at the port of Brisbane. Once the phone call's about mad Kiwi's running around firing Javelin's and shooting the 25mm cannon of their LAVIII's around an RF-111 would probably sent over on a recce mission.

It would spot NZ's suicidal activities and would be immediately followed by a strike force of F-111's which would smash the MRV with laser guided bombs. The Australian Army's 7th Brigade (which incidentally is bigger than NZ's entire front line Army force) would then be deployed to mop up the 100 or so soldiers that the MRV could actually deliver and the dozen or so LAVIII's that could be brought. I predict this NZ force, even if dispersed would remain an effective force for about 10-12 hours.

Another strike force of F-111's would probably meanwhile have been dispatched to teach NZ itself a lesson with a strike on the rest of the RNZN which would sink your entire force probably on the very first mission.

The RAN would be deployed to completely blockade NZ and strikes would continue occuring until your psyco leader either commited suicide, either voluntarily or by a lynch mob of enraged sheep farmers whose, Lamb, Mutton and Wool were no longer generated income of any kind for NZ....

[Jason_kiwi]

It goes a little like this. The men and LAV's deplayed also hav mistrils so all air attacks are taken down. The MRV gets destroyed. The troops, LAV's and Javilins kill 100,000's of people and many Oz troops. Oz flys the F-111's to NZ but NZ is on alert, the incoming F-111 get takin down by seasparrow missiles. So they send an Oz fleet over. But the NZ ships layed out mines so the Oz fleet gets smashed. Then Oz sends a few subs but the orions soon find them and smash them to with torps. Oz trys more air attacks but keep getting knocked down. An air NZ 747 flys over the government center and crashes into is. Their is no law and order left in Oz and everything goes to third world.

[Jason_kiwi]

It becomes the worlds most embarrasing moment that a small country like NZ hammered Oz. NZ never ends up taking it because we thought we should give the kangaroos a chance. A bit like the bedslocup, we give the Oz's a chance but they can never get it. Shame that...

[EnigmaNZ]

God reading Jason's post makes me so embarrassed to be a kiwi. We brought 24 javelin missiles, won't be taking out a lot of targets with that many, certainly not killing millions. We also only have a small number of mistrals and only 2 alerting and cueing systems. Sea sparrows are short ranged and the F-111's will launch from outside their range so no F-111 will get shot down. It's normal practice I believe to launch 2 missiles at a target in case one misses, so a anzac can take out 4 aircraft if they are stupid enough to come close in. God I can't be bothered with this.


Interesting site guys that goes into the problems Labour has presented Defence with in it's term.
http://juni0r.orcon.net.nz/defencedebate.html

[Aussie Digger]

You should post into the Comedy thread rather than military forums Jason, you'd get the same amount of laughs. Any actual conflict between Australia and New Zealand, would result in the near total destruction of the NZDF. Sea Sparrow missiles could not stop Australian F-111's or F/A-18's from striking NZ.

Any attempt would bring about your ANZAC class ships own destruction. RAAF F-111's have sunk US Carriers in Tandem Thrust exercises in Australia. An ANZAC frigate would pose NO real threat whatsoever. The Sea sparrow for instance has a 14.5k maximum range and your frigates carry only 8 of them...

Any such airstrike would likely destroy any assets NZ possesses which could pose any sort of threat to Australian forces. This includes your P-3K's, ANZAC frigates, OPV's and IPV's. Strikes would then focus on your military bases. With only a single troop of Mistral SAM's in the NZDF's inventory (about 8 launchers), you can't deploy them AND have them at home. You'd have to do one or the other.

Personally I'd keep them at home to try and defend you strategic assets, but that's just me. Your 100 strong deployment force will get annihilated anyway. Why waste such a valuable and limited asset?

AS to the Bledisloe Cup, Australia has won it many, many times. We held the cup for 5 years straight from 1998 to 2002, IIRC. Btw, how did NZ go in the last World cup? It seems to have slipped my memory. Could you perhaps refresh my memory?

[abramsteve]

I used to wonder why the Kiwis haven't seen the light and become a state yet, but with fellas like this Jason it shows. What the heck does he think that the cops in Brisy will be doing when all this shooting starts, not to mention when the army arrives.
By the way, becoming a state would help you problems with defence.

[abramsteve]

I almost forgot to add that the police in Australia are actually armed with firearms, there not the best but they are a whole lot more lethal than the pepper spray that kiwis might be more acquainted to

[WebMaster]

I think this topic has reached it's life span.

Locking.

Jason, no offense but next time come up with a better topic than Kiwies vs the Aussies/Europeans or rest of the world. ;)