Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[Su_37]

ATV NUCLEAR SUBMARINE PROGRAM

Russian, Indian, and Norwegian sources reported in July 1998 that Russia was providing some form of assistance to India's ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel) nuclear submarine program, including assistance in the installation of propulsion reactors for the two submarines laid down in 1998. [1,2,3,4,6] Then-Minister of Atomic Energy Yevgeniy Adamov denied discussing nuclear propulsion with his Indian counterparts.[1] However, Adamov's denial did not exclude the possibility of technical assistance from the Russian Navy. The Russian and Indian Navies have a history of cooperation on nuclear submarine design and operations. In 1988-1991, the Soviet Union leased the K-43, a 670A Skat-class [NATO name 'Charlie I'] nuclear submarine to the Indian Navy.[1] The sub sailed under the name Chakra with a Soviet crew operating the propulsion reactor; the remainder of the crew was Indian.[4] (The NPT does not prohibit the transfer of technology for naval nuclear propulsion, creating what some experts regard as a serious loophole in the international nonproliferation regime.[5]) According to early reports, the design of the Indian ATV submarines, each of which will be propelled by one 190MW PWR reactor, is very similar to that of the new Russian Yasen class, and the subs may be armed with Russian SS-N-15/16 missiles.[3] [This would violate the MTCR unless the range is less than 300km.] However, a Russian nuclear submarine expert says that the hulls under construction are not of Russian design.[4] More recent sources hold that the submarine design is that of the Russian Antey-class [NATO name 'Oscar II'] SSGN.[7] The ATV is an intended launch platform for the nuclear-capable Sagarika missile, which is being developed by India's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore with Russian assistance; the project itself was initially believed to have been headed by a Russian scientist.[8] Sagarika's range is about 300km and it is expected to be produced both as a cruise missile and a ballistic missile.[7] In early 1998, a group of Indian officers were posted to the Severnoye Mashinostroitelnoye Predpriyatiye (Sevmash) shipyard in Severodvinsk, where a Yasen-class submarine is under construction.[1,3] (A Kilo-class sub exported to India was under repair at the nearby Zvezdochka shipyard.[3]) According to the submarine expert, Sevmash negotiated with India regarding the possible sale of nuclear propulsion reactors to the ATV program, but the proposed deal was not approved by authorities in Moscow.[4] Nevertheless, despite the ties between the two countries' submarine programs, the extent of Russian assistance to Indian nuclear submarine propulsion cannot be determined from open sources.

Due to the slow pace of the ATV program, India may once again resort to leasing Russian nuclear submarines. In 1999 reports surfaced that India was planning to purchase Russian nuclear submarines. At the time, Russian Navy officials issued denials, stating that India had made no inquiries about such a purchase.[9] However, the Russian Ministry of Defense revealed that the matter was discussed in September 1999 during a visit by senior Indian naval officers to St. Petersburg.[10] Reports of Indian plans to lease a Russian nuclear submarine circulated again in late 2000, [11], and, in February 2001, Rosoboroneksport Deputy General Director Viktor Komardin said that India had expressed an interest in leasing a nuclear submarine.[12] In June 2001, a Russian newspaper reported that India and Russia were planning to sign a contract by the end of 2001 for the completion of two unfinished Project 971 Shchuka-B [NATO name 'Akula'] nuclear-powered general purpose submarines.[13] Although the contract was not signed, in January 2002 Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov confirmed that Russia planned to lease two nuclear submarines to India. The terms of the contract included the training of Indian submarine crews in Russia and the lease of two submarines for five years, beginning in 2004.[14] In a January 2001 interview, Indian Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Madhvendra Singh refused to confirm or deny plans to lease Russian submarines. He did note, however, that skills acquired in the operation of Chakra have been lost, and that the Indian Navy would require at least 2.5 years to train another nuclear submarine crew. Therefore, India would like to lease a Russian nuclear submarine in order to train personnel for the future Indian nuclear submarine force.[15] Although it was widely expected that a nuclear submarine lease contract would be signed in February 2002, during Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov's visit to India, the contract did not materialize, and according to some reports the subject was not even raised at the meeting.[16] Some analysts have speculated that India's insufficient defense budget prevented it from concluding the deal, in spite of considerable interest.[17] However, in February 2002 an Indian newspaper reported that an Indian submarine crew has been undergoing training in Russia for about a year, and that its activities included sorties aboard a Project 971-class attack submarine.[18]

[WebMaster]

SU-37, list your source please.

[ajay_ijn]

Germans back in submarine fray (http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=74111)
With the deal for French Scorpene submarines stuck at the Cabinet level, the Germans are in the country again, pitching hard for their HDW Class 214 submarines to be considered for what will be a Rs 12,000 crore order.
Top officials representing the German shipbuilder HDW—including a technical expert from the shipyard and management top-brass—were here for the last few days. They made a comprehensive presentation to the Navy’s controller of warship production & acquisition, Vice-Admiral JS Bedi, on Tuesday. The HDW officials have been regularly visiting India ever since the firm was cleared of corruption charges three months ago. The case involved their sale of four submarines to the Indian Navy in the mid-1980s.
(Mods should i make Indian Navy news thread so that we can post all this news)


Interesting,Inspite of Navy almost selecting Scorpene,HDW is still pitching hard.


They are even ready to integrate U-214 with Russian 3M54E Klub Cruise Missile of range 220km and can go mach 2.5 at final phase
Presently Klubs are operational in Kilo Class.


They also said if Indian Navy manages to get Sub-Harpoon,then integration will be lot easier.

Recent news is Siemens of offering AIP Upgrade to India for the most famous SSK U-209.


gf,ur sub expert plz say why India Navy selects scorpene over U-214???


Even the bribe charges againt HDW are cleared
There is no reason why Indian Navy would pick scorpene over U-214.


Everything in U-214 seems to be better than Scorpene,
and HDW is ready to integrate a Russian Cruise Missile in U-214.
ofcourse missile is not that imp,more important is Underwater endurance and Silence.

[gf0012-aust]

Germans back in submarine fray (http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=74111)

(Mods should i make Indian Navy new thread so that we can post all this news)


Interesting,Inspite of Navy almost selecting Scorpene,HDW is still pitching hard.


They are even ready to integrate U-214 with Russian 3M54E Klub Cruise Missile of range 220km and can go mach 2.5 at final phase
Presently Klubs are operational in Kilo Class.


They also said if Indian Navy manages to get Sub-Harpoon,then integration will be lot easier.

Recent news is Siemens of offering AIP Upgrade to India for the most famous SSK U-209.


gf,ur sub expert plz say why India Navy selects scorpene over U-214???


Even the bribe charges againt HDW are cleared
There is no reason why Indian Navy would pick scorpene over U-214.


Everything in U-214 seems to be better than Scorpene,
and HDW is ready to integrate a Russian Cruise Missile in U-214.
ofcourse missile is not that imp,more important is Underwater endurance and Silence.

I'm obviously not privy to why Scorpene has been an uncontested evaluation (up until recently). But I've made it pretty clear on Indian sites like PR that I consider the German 200 series subs to be far superior for a whole range of reasons.

Ultimately any decision will be based on strategic, operational and national interest factors. I'm not going to second guess the Indian Govt - although I do have some personal reasons which are inapprop as public comments. ;)

[ajay_ijn]

I wanted to post some news articles,i thought to make a thread for Indian navy instead creating new thread for every news article or topic.

Scorpene deal not clinched: Pranab (http://www.defenceindia.com/11-jul-2k5/news11.html)

''The Scorpene deal has not yet been clinched,'' Mukherjee told newsmen here. The Defence minister said that the Cabinet Committee on Security had directed him to look into some issues which included pricing, cost escalation and new integrity agreement under the new defence procurement policy.
The vice-chief of the French navy had visited India recently to negotiate the deal and it was awaiting clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security.

Nothing new,The same delay which causes frustration to Navy.


Navy Commissioned Guided Missile Frigate INS Beas (http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=10124)

INS Beas, the latest Guided Missile Frigate built by Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata is being commissioned into the Indian Navy on 11 Jul 05 at Kolkata by the Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Arun Prakash.

'BEAS', a 3600 tonne warship, is 125 metres in length and a draught of 4.5 metres. The platform is densely packed with weapons like Barak Anti Missile Defence system, 04 quad-packs of the URAN Surface-to-Surface missiles, 01 medium range 76 mm Super Rapid Gun Mount, 04 Close range 30mm AK 630 Guns, 02 Triple tube Torpedo launchers, Sonar and the sophisticated Ellora Electronic Warfare suite. The ship has an advanced Computerised Action Information system for Command and Control of all weapons and sensors. The ship is propelled by two 15,000 BHP steam turbines and is capable of achieving speeds in excess of 30 knots.
Is barak the only SAM in that ship,
Trishul had some problems.
What happened to SA-N-7,may be that doesn't fit into the warship.
This ship has highest indegenious systems compared any other locally build warship.
Some 70% is made locally: radars,sonar,EW,combat management systems etc.
but ofcourse,all the weapons are imported one.


Navy prefers F-35s to F-18s (http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/12/stories/2005071204591300.htm)

We are keen on the F-35s as they are operated with the ski-jump facility and are more compatible: Admiral Arun Prakesh

KOLKATA: The Navy is interested in the F-35 fighter aircraft than the F-18, as our aircraft carrier [the first indigenous carrier being built at the Kochi shipyard] will not have the steam-catapult with which the F-18 takes off," according to Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash said here on Monday.

"We are keen on the F-35 as they are operated with the ski-jump facility and are more compatible," he said.

He, however, does not know whether the issue had been taken up by Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee with the U.S. officials.
Now this is surprising becoz a Naval Cheif made that statement.
May be this means Navy really thinks that the Right replacement for Harrier is the another VTOL Fighter,and obviously the future VTOL Fighter is F-35.


I think Navy would buy them from Britain rather than from US as they did buy Sea Harrier and Sea Hawk from UK.
Britain can export JSF right.





Naval chief warns shipyards against slow pace of production (http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/12/stories/2005071204551300.htm)

` We may have to import as we need five to six new ships or submarines every year'

Placing orders on our shipyards is high on our agenda. But maintaining the force levels is top priority.
Two ships delivered in June; Beas delivered on Monday. Two ships scheduled for launch next month and six due for delivery by June.
Navy to consider adopting "modified classification society" specifications for frontline ships as done in the U.S.

KOLKATA: Chief of the Naval Staff Arun Prakash on Monday criticised shipyards for the slow pace of production. The Navy needed five to six new ships or submarines annually but defence and civilian shipyards could at best deliver only two to three ships a year, he pointed out. This resulted in the Navy turning to imports.

"This is not good enough and our shipyards must accelerate the pace of production. While we are deeply committed to our public sector undertakings, we cannot allow our force levels to decline. Therefore, if left with no alternative, we shall have no choice but to import warships to make up our force levels," he said at a ceremony to launch INS Beas, a frigate with the highest level of indigenisation, at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) here.

"I have just sounded a note of caution. They have to step up the pace of production so that we do not have to go abroad for our requirements. Placing orders on our shipyards is high on our agenda. But maintaining the force levels is my top priority," he said.


See, The result of frustration.Navy wants to buy foreign ships when the local production rate is very slow.
Compared with Airforce and Army,Navy has more indegenous weapons.
Due to some or other reason Ship Building industry says the production is delayed.
I think many workers and engineers are not effeciently working,on the top of this delay in getting steel and other things to build the ship.
They are highly skilled but most of them don't work upto their potential.
This is general opinion in india about any govt owned industries.

[ArjunMK1]

Some news chunks :


BrahMos success


BrahMos in its second developmental flight, in the ship-launch configuration from land at the Interim Test Range in Orissa on April 28, 2002.

BRAHMOS, the supersonic cruise missile jointly developed by India and Russia, was flight-tested successfully for the third time on February 12.

The importance of the mission lies in the fact that it was for the first time that the missile was ship-launched, from the Indian Navy vessel Rajput, off the Orissa coast. The first developmental flight took place on June 12, 2001, from the Interim Test Range (ITR), Orissa, when the missile flew out of a canister (silo on land). The second developmental flight, on April 28, 2002, a prelude to the latest one, was in a ship-launch configuration from land, at the ITR.

The third flight has provided enhanced missile capability to the Navy. Western countries do not have a supersonic cruise missile; they have only subsonic ones, which travel at speeds less than that of sound. Russia has sold a supersonic cruise missile, Moskit, to China. But that has a lower speed and a shorter range than BrahMos




India to test advanced version of BrahMos

Giridhar Gopal in Bhubaneswar | December 01, 2004 18:36 IST
Last Updated: December 01, 2004 19:56 IST


India is planning to test an advanced version of supersonic cruise missile BrahMos at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur, Orissa.

Preparations are underway to test the missile, developed jointly by India and Russia, using a land platform, ITR sources said Wednesday.

With a range of about 300 kilometers, BrahMos can be launched from multiple platforms - land, ships, submarines, aircraft and a ground vehicle.

Defence scientists are also likely to test an advanced version of Trishul, a short-range surface-to-air missile, in January 2005. Trishul can be used by the army, air force and navy.

[kashifshahzad]

Now this is surprising becoz a Naval Cheif made that statement.
May be this means Navy really thinks that the Right replacement for Harrier is the another VTOL Fighter,and obviously the future VTOL Fighter is F-35.


I think Navy would buy them from Britain rather than from US as they did buy Sea Harrier and Sea Hawk from UK.
Britain can export JSF right.

SEE THIS FIRST

Service
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Marine Corps
U.S. Navy
U.K. Royal Navy

Variants
Conventional Takeoff and Landing (CTOL)
Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing (STOVL)
Carrier-based (CV)

Unit CostFY94$
$28M
$35M
$38M

Inventory Objectives
U.S. Air Force 2,036 aircraft (CTOL)
U.S. Marine Corps642 aircraft (STOVL)
U.K. Royal Navy60 aircraft (STOVL)
U.S. Navy300 aircraft (CV)

Now mate what do you say how much you will get out of 60 :p:

[XEROX]

There does seem to relevant substance to what the Admiral is saying about the F-35, the Indian Navy is planning for the future, and maybe the F-35s do figure in these plans, but i feel more a timescale of 2020-25

[adsH]

The UK does not Manufacture these AC . LM(prime contractor) will use Different Supplier (As subcontractors) from various partner nations (the Majority of them are form the UK and US). And I doubt anyone country would be able to market them (with the exception of US). In-order to receive the AC You would need to be at good terms with the Supplier nations (not just US and UK). I doubt a Marketing strategy has even been built up. We are talking about an AC that first has to be supplied to USAF USN and UK RN. And then you might be able to procure the AC. As it stands right now its an LM project and so it is American. happy days :). And you thought F-16 was complicating

The JSF UK Industry Team

The JSF UK Industry Team is an informal alliance between BAE SYSTEMS, MBDA, Martin-Baker, Rolls-Royce and Smiths Aerospace.

It has three principal aims:

1. To ensure that UK Industry continues to play a major role during the production phase of the programme, creating value and employment and thereby sustaining a competitive UK defence industry.

2. To broker and subsequently lead the European elements of JSF production and sustainment, optimising both UK operational capability and UK Industry’s involvement.

3. To ensure that UK products, such as helmets and missiles, are qualified as early as possible and are promoted to customers on the same terms as the incumbent US alternatives.

BAE SYSTEMS, Martin-Baker, Rolls-Royce and Smiths Aerospace have been part of the JSF programme since its inception. Their innovation, experience and knowledge have contributed significantly to the programme’s success. UK Industry has secured significant elements of work competitively and on merit.

MBDA, one of the world’s foremost missile system companies, has developed several products, qualification of which on the Joint Strike Fighter would bring enormous interoperability benefits, provide genuine customer choice and create a significant export opportunity.

All these companies have invested considerable amounts of money and proprietary information in the programme and now seek equitable financial returns through long term participation. However there are no guarantees of involvement in future phases, and increasing political pressures risk distorting the allocation of future work within Europe.

At risk is the independence of UK industrial and military capability. There is a short, one-time opportunity for UK industry to secure a meaningful, profitable and long-term role on the programme, but this requires the aspirations of Government and Industry to be closely aligned. This website complements other activities being performed by the Team to raise awareness and promote discussion amongst key UK decision shapers and makers.











Goals for the UK

Operational: Secure sovereign ability to conduct operations and receive priority repair/modification.

Technological: Maintain UK’s lead in key aerospace technologies. Enable UK access to emerging technologies.

Industrial: Safeguard vital aerospace jobs and skill base. Open export markets for UK alternative offerings e.g. missile and helmet

Political: Preserve UK as a leading military, aerospace and industrial power. Retain benefits of early commitment to JSF through programme life

The SDD Phase is estimated to be worth £1.6billion to BAE Systems in the UK and a further £0.5billion to BAE Systems North America.

The value of the subsequent production phase is estimated to be as much as £11billion to BAE Systems in the UK and £3billion in the US, whilst export sales and support, training and other business opportunities, such as upgrade programmes, represent further significant sales opportunities.

BAE Systems’ participation is spread across many of its operations, encompassing manufacturing facilities at Warton and Samlesbury (Lancashire), avionics facilities at Rochester (Kent) and Edinburgh, and many sites across North America.

BAE Systems brings a rich heritage of Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) experience from the Harrier programme as well as advanced lean manufacturing technology, recently honed on the Typhoon programme, from its facilities at Warton and Samlesbury. The aft fuselage and empennage (tails and fins) for each JSF will be designed, engineered and built at Samlesbury, using the latest in advanced development and manufacturing technology.

BAE Systems is also involved in key areas of the weapon system’s design, such as mission systems, the vehicle management system and autonomic logistics. BAE Systems Platform Solutions Sector is providing the aircraft’s Vehicle Management Computer, the AIS (Active Interceptor System) and the Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems division is responsible for the Electronic Warfare System and significant parts of the CNI (Computing, Navigation and Identification) System whilst the UK-based Avionics Division is supplying the Laser for the EOTS (Electro-Optical Targeting System).





With an annual turnover exceeding € 2 billion (US$ 2.2 billion), a forward order book of € 14 billion (US$ 15.2 billion) and over 70 customers world wide, MBDA is a world leading, global missile systems company.

MBDA’s ASRAAM, Storm Shadow and Brimstone are all threshold weapons for JSF. ASRAAM is in Block 3 (SDD) and Brimstone and Storm Shadow are in Block 4.

Consequently, MBDA is currently supporting, under contract from Lockheed Martin via BAE SYSTEMS, the integration and clearance of ASRAAM and the provision of Storm Shadow and Brimstone on JSF within the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) contract. Future weapons such as Meteor are expected to be added to the platform in due course.

MBDA’s objective is to support the JSF Team in producing the best integration solution for these 3 weapons in terms of carriage, release, system integration, weapon operations and performance. MBDA working with the JSF Team will aim not only to produce the best solution but also implement these in a cost effective and timely manner.

Historically, MBDA has vast experience of the development and integration of air launched weapon systems onto both European and US aircraft. ASRAAM, for example has been integrated with the Tornado, Eurofighter, F-16 and F-18 aircraft. MBDA’s experience reflects the use of both advanced modelling techniques, wind tunnel testing and trials to streamline and reduce the costs of weapons integration programmes.





Martin-Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd (MBA) is the world's longest established and most experienced manufacturer of ejection seats and related survival equipment. Ejection is obviously a last resort for aircrew; 7,026 aircrew owe their lives to Martin-Baker equipment and a staggering 1 in 10 of the ejection seats manufactured to date have saved a life. Every facet of the safety system from initiation, escape path clearance, ejection sequencing, stabilisation, life support and parachute descent to final rescue, must work perfectly to safeguard a precious life. The aircrew member must also reach the ground uninjured, especially in a hostile environment, if they are to have the best possible chance of survival and recovery.

Martin-Baker was selected for the F-35 because of its demonstrable ability to offer a fully integrated escape system that satisfies the very latest in pilot operational capability and safety standards offering a complete 'end-to-end service' from helping the customer to establish operational safety and escape requirements, design, development and qualification, to ongoing support throughout the entire service life of the aircraft.

The System Development & Demonstration (SDD) ejection seat that MBA proposed to Lockheed Martin is a further development of the Mk16 range that has already been successful for the Raytheon Texan II (JPATS), the Eurofighter Typhoon, the NASA T-38 upgrade program and other numerous aircraft platforms around the world.

For SDD, the ejection seat (common to all 3 F-35 aircraft variants) is known as the Mk16E and will provide an unprecedented balanced optimisation, between key performance parameters such as safe terrain clearance, physiological loading, pilot boarding mass and accommodation (the widest aircrew population on record), to fullymeet the F-35 Escape System requirements.

The Mk16E’s prime structural elements comprise the well established twin catapult arrangement that is housed in a side-rail arrangement, and a 19.5” wide seat bucket that is based on the NASA T-38 design to ensure accommodation of the larger aircrew. The seat design is highly modularised and provides ease of seat removal with the canopy in-situ. The seat is lightweight whilst at the same time providing a 30gx crash and egress capability.

SDD has introduced other challenging technical performance requirements. The adoption of the Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) as the prime means of flight data display (“virtual HUD”) for the extended aircrew population has introduced unprecedented head and neck load requirements, whilst an auto-eject system has been introduced to counter the lift-fan failure condition for the F-35B STOVL aircraft.

During the first 48 months of the SDD programme, MBA will develop the ejection seat system and all its related components and sub-systems, culminating in the delivery of 14 flight seats for the SDD flight development aircraft. The subsequent 78 months between System Development & Demonstration (SDD) first flight and FRIP (Full Rate Production) will be spent maturing the overall escape system, supporting the flight development aircraft and preparing for FRIP.





Rolls-Royce is engaged in two distinct activities on the JSF Programme during the Development Phase:

· Teamed with Pratt & Whitney on the design and development of the STOVL LiftSystem™, and
· Teamed with General Electric (GE) on the design and development of the F136 engine, a new engine designed to be fully interchangeable with the incumbent F135.

Rolls-Royce is teamed with Pratt & Whitney to develop the F135 STOVL Propulsion System for Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and ensure interchangeability with the joint GE/Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team’s F136 engine. The Rolls-Royce LiftSystem provides operators with STOVL capability, regardless of engine choice.

The Rolls-Royce LiftSystem comprise 3 principal components: Rolls-Royce LiftFan™, 3 Bearing Swivel Module (3BSM) and Roll Posts.

The LiftFan, a 50-inch two-stage counter rotating fan capable of generating more than 20,000lbs of thrust, is driven from a conventional gas turbine and supplies the forward vertical lift. The 3BSM is a swivelling jet pipe capable of redirecting the rear thrust from the horizontal to the vertical position. It can rotate through 95 degrees in 2.5 seconds and passes 18,000lbs of thrust. Aircraft roll control is achieved using the Roll Posts mounted in the wings of the aircraft, each of which provides further 1,950lbs thrust.

Rolls-Royce is managing the overall development and integration programme from its site in Bristol, UK, which is also responsible for the Rolls-Royce LiftFan™ turbomachinery, 3BSM and Roll Post designs. The team in Indianapolis, US, will provide the system’s gearbox, clutch, driveshaft and nozzle and will conduct the build and verification testing of the LiftFan.

The USG has funded the development of the rival F136 engine, which will provide customers with a choice of engine in time for low rate initial production. GE Aircraft Engines, with responsibility for 60 percent of the program, is developing the compressor, coupled turbine, controls and accessories, structures and the augmentor. Rolls-Royce, with 40 percent of the program, is responsible for the fan, combustor, low-pressure turbines and gearboxes.





Smiths Aerospace draws together the expertise of three key companies; legacy Smiths Industries, the former TI Dowty group and Lear Siegler of the US.

Smiths has continued to win key contracts on the JSF programme, to the extent that it the range of contracts already secured are valued in excess of $10 billion over the lifetime of the aircraft.

Key F-35 systems from Smiths now include:

· standby flight display system, electrical power management system, remote input / output data concentrator unit (Cheltenham UK)
· weapons control and data electronics (Michigan, Maryland and Florida)
· engine and LiftFan™ debris monitoring system (Southampton UK)
· LiftFan™ hose and tube system (New Hampshire and Massachusetts)
. integrated canopy frame assembly (Southampton UK)
. actuation systems and components included in the propulsion system and airframe (New Jersey, Indiana, Washington and Wolverhampton UK)

Smiths Aerospace have repeatedly demonstrated their commitment to the programme by investment such as the new Wolverhampton test facility to develop and qualify actuation equipment, funded partly through the JSF programme and also Smiths internal capital expenditure.

Smiths Aerospace Group Managing Director, John Ferrie summarises Smiths’ capabilities, “Our combined integrated systems in electronics, actuation, engine components and aircraft structures offer unique solutions for the F-35. The overall programme will bring greater value to F-35 customers through the use of common test systems tailored to each supplier’s requirements. Smiths are delighted to bring value in F-35 integrated solutions as a first tier supplier http://www.jsf.org.uk/team.htm


As Much as I am Honored that you would think we would have marketing rights for the JSF however I would have to bitterly acknowledge the Upper hand the US would have in this project. On the brighter side we are probably the Most significant ally contributers in the JSF project but even we have limits!!!

Just realized that I am a MOD here, Could we refrain from talking about the JSF even though it is related to Indian Navy's future procurements. Can we get back to the Topic please!! the JSF belongs in the Aviation Section.

[XEROX]

Adsh, whats happening with the JSF in terms ToT of high end tech i.e stealth and software codes with Britain and the U.S, would we pull out of the project if its not resolved, were sharing our V/STOL technology, they should share stealth:)

[Deeps_Terminato]

Indian Navy to Train with US and French Fleets.

The Navy will take part in landmark exercises with nuclear-powered submarines and aircraft carriers belonging to the US, French and Russian navies over the next three months. As a result, Delhi's footprint will stretch to the Gulf of Aden for the first time.

The Navy is to take part in anti-piracy exercises in the Indian Ocean with ASEAN nations this month. It will go head-to-head with the US Navy in the Arabian Sea in September and with the French Navy in the Gulf of Aden two months later.

This is the first time that the Navy will be training with the US and French fleets, among the world's most advanced.

The INS Viraat - the Navy's only aircraft carrier, Shishumar-class (German Class 209/1500) submarines, Russian stealth frigates and Delhi-class destroyers will train with a US nuclear-powered carrier carrying a fleet of F/A-18 Hornets. This is the first time the Navy's Sea Harriers will get a chance to fly with the US carrier-based jets. The Navy will also get to engage upgraded US P-3C Orions, on offer to the government.

"The aim of the exercises is to weave interoperability among the frontline warships and weapon platforms of the US and Indian navies," a top Naval official said.

Other sources said the recently signed Indo-US defence framework provided for greater engagement between the two navies, adding that "taking interoperability to a much more advanced level was in order".

The exercises come just weeks after an IAF team returned from a separate exercise with the French air force. The naval exercises, set for end-November around the Horn of Africa, will coincide with the IAF-USAF joint exercises at Kalaikonda.

The exercises, codenamed Varuna IV, will be held with French naval warships including the nuclear-powered carrier Charles de Gaulle and French nuclear submarines from Djibouti.

Between these exercises, Indian Navy warships will also train with a Russian warship fleet in the Bay of Bengal, the second in a series of exercises. The Russian battle group will bring stealth frigates and Akula-class nuclear submarines - which the Navy has long been interested in purchasing or leasing.

"The Russians wanted the exercises to be held every year and now it has been decided that these wargames, codenamed Indra, will be held every other year," officials said.

For now, warships are heading to waters in the Indian Ocean Region for an exercise next Monday with the Singapore Navy. Exercises will also be held with the Indonesian and Malaysian navies.
Link : http://www.defenceindia.com/11-jul-2k5/news23.html

[XEROX]

India likely to make huge weapon purchase from US Washington, July 20 (PTI): India is expected to start purchasing $ 5 billion worth of conventional military equipment from the US if the civilian nuclear cooperation agreement between the two countries is approved by Congress, according to Pentagon officials.

The current US Non-proliferation Act prevents India and other countries that have not signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty from acquiring a wide range of US military technology that included components that could be used for nuclear programmes.

While Bush Administration officials have sought to play down how the arrangement fits into a broad White House strategy to help position India as a regional counterweight to China, Pentagon officials told The Washington Post that they expected India to start purchasing as much as $ 5 billion worth of conventional military equipment if the pact is approved by US Congress.

The Pentagon officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the Post that they considered many of the potential sales, including anti-submarine patrol aircraft that could spot Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean and Aegis radar for Indian destroyers operating in the strategic Straits of Malaka, as useful for monitoring the Chinese military.



Washington post link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/19/AR2005071901847.html)

Not really suprised about the anti-sub patrol aircraft, thats most likly a P3-orion, but its suprising regarding the Aegis radar

[ajay_ijn]

Indian Navy to Train with US and French Fleets.

The Navy will take part in landmark exercises with nuclear-powered submarines and aircraft carriers belonging to the US, French and Russian navies over the next three months. As a result, Delhi's footprint will stretch to the Gulf of Aden for the first time.

The Navy is to take part in anti-piracy exercises in the Indian Ocean with ASEAN nations this month. It will go head-to-head with the US Navy in the Arabian Sea in September and with the French Navy in the Gulf of Aden two months later.

This is the first time that the Navy will be training with the US and French fleets, among the world's most advanced.

The INS Viraat - the Navy's only aircraft carrier, Shishumar-class (German Class 209/1500) submarines, Russian stealth frigates and Delhi-class destroyers will train with a US nuclear-powered carrier carrying a fleet of F/A-18 Hornets. This is the first time the Navy's Sea Harriers will get a chance to fly with the US carrier-based jets. The Navy will also get to engage upgraded US P-3C Orions, on offer to the government.

"The aim of the exercises is to weave interoperability among the frontline warships and weapon platforms of the US and Indian navies," a top Naval official said.

Other sources said the recently signed Indo-US defence framework provided for greater engagement between the two navies, adding that "taking interoperability to a much more advanced level was in order".

The exercises come just weeks after an IAF team returned from a separate exercise with the French air force. The naval exercises, set for end-November around the Horn of Africa, will coincide with the IAF-USAF joint exercises at Kalaikonda.

The exercises, codenamed Varuna IV, will be held with French naval warships including the nuclear-powered carrier Charles de Gaulle and French nuclear submarines from Djibouti.

Between these exercises, Indian Navy warships will also train with a Russian warship fleet in the Bay of Bengal, the second in a series of exercises. The Russian battle group will bring stealth frigates and Akula-class nuclear submarines - which the Navy has long been interested in purchasing or leasing.

"The Russians wanted the exercises to be held every year and now it has been decided that these wargames, codenamed Indra, will be held every other year," officials said.

For now, warships are heading to waters in the Indian Ocean Region for an exercise next Monday with the Singapore Navy. Exercises will also be held with the Indonesian and Malaysian navies.
Not thats rocking,USN,French Navy,Russian Navy.
I think Indian Navy must more participate in ASW Excercises as major threat to our navy is from Subs.
They must ask France and German navies to send their SSKs with AIP and from our side we must send frigates,destroyers specialized in Anti-Sub warfare and also Patrol Aircraft.
Like IAF was eager to check the capability of F-16,Navy must aslo try to develop Tactics against Subs with AIP by excercising with European Navies.

USN wanted to check the capability of AIP in SSKs so they excercised with Swedish Gotland AIP Submarine.

[backfire]

Recent news suggest that HDW pitched in at the very last moment with a much cheaper deal, since it was also in the fray to buy out the DCN, the makers of the scorpene and stealing away the approx $6 billion contract would have lowered the value of DCN.

But since the deal to acquire DCN has fallen through and IN clarifying the renegotiation of the Scorpene deal, delaying the already delayed project, I don't see IN buying the U-214

[backfire]

What's the news on the ATV project

An article in JDW suggests that the russians have been helping the indian scientists with their nuclear reactor.

I'm sorry i can't locate the link right now

[backfire]

A recent article in a leading daily in india suggest that the "hush-hush" project in chugging along smoothly, but that's about it, no further details were given

A friend in the circles says that the security around the shipyard is very very tight, no body can go past.

Industrial giant L&T are also a contractor in the project
that's all i know

[ArjunMK1]

ATV

India has been working since 1985 to develop an indigenously constructed nuclear-powered submarine, one that is based on the Soviet Charlie II-class design, detailed drawings of which are said to have been obtained from the Soviet Union in 1989. This project illustrates India's industrial capabilities and weaknesses. The secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to provide nuclear propulsion for Indian submarines has been one of the more ill-managed projects of India. Although India has the capability of building the hull and developing or acquiring the necessary sensors, its industry has been stymied by several system integration and fabrication problems in trying to downsize a 190 MW pressurized water reactor (PWR) to fit into the space available within the submarine's hull. The Proto-type Testing Centre (PTC) at the Indira Gandhi Centre For Atomic Research. Kalpakkam, will be used to test the submarine's turbines and propellers. A similar facility is operational at Vishakapatnam to test the main turbines and gear box.

According to some accounts India plans to have as many as five nuclear submarines capable of carrying missiles with nuclear warheads. The Indian nuclear powered attack submarine design is said to have a 4,000-ton displacement and a single-shaft nuclear power plant of Indian origin. Once the vessel is completed, it may be equipped with Danush/Sagarika cruise missiles and an advanced sonar system. However, according to some analysts the most probable missile for the Indian submarine would be the Yahont anti-ship cruise missile designed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya.

With the participation he accomplishes of involved Russian scientists and technician in the diverse phases of the program, has possibility of that the first Indian submarine with nuclear propulsion, with 9,400 tons of displacement when submerged and 124 meters of length, can be operational in 2009, will have been launched in 2006-2007.

This way would have the possibility of multiple performance: it could use missiles of cruise of average reach (1,000 km), ballistic missiles of short reach (300 km), torpedoes and mines, besides participating of operations special. If it will have success in this taken over on a contract basis, will be valid to assume that the Indian Fleet will count on four of these submarines until the year of 2020.

Vessel Type Submarine
Country India
Program Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV)
Total Number 1
Unit Cost (US$) 1B (Est.)
Builder Vishakapatnam Naval Dockyard (VND) with assistance from Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL).
Displ. Tons 5,500 – 6,500 (Est.)
Length 100m (328ft) (Est.)
Beam 15m (49.2ft) (Est.)
Draft 9m (29.5ft) (Est.)
Machinery Nuclear: one pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 20% enriched uranium fuel (160-190MW); one turbine (47,000hp/70MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller. (Est.)
Speed (Knots) 12-15 (surfaced) 30-34 (submerged). (Est.)
Range Unlimited.
Diving Depth 300 m (984.2ft). (Est.)
Complement Undetermined.
Weapons Torpedoes: Six 21 inch (533mm) torpedo tubes. Mines. A total capacity (mines, torpedoes, and missiles) of 30 weapons. (Est.)
Missiles Submarine launched cruise missiles (SLCM) using either a vertical launch system or a torpedo tube launch, surface-to-surface missiles (SSMs), and a submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM). (Est.)

source :
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/atv.htm
http://www.indiadefence.com/ATV.htm





ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY VESSEL

The Indian Navy leased a Russian 670 Skat (NATO: Charlie I) Class nuclear powered submarine for three years - from January 1988 to January 1991. In the Indian Navy, the vessel was referred to as the INS Chakra and was manned by a Russian crew who also had the task of training Indian submariners on how to operate the nuclear powered vessel. In addition to becoming a training ground, INS Chakra also acted as a design laboratory for developing and testing indigenous nuclear submarine technologies. The lease was not extended after January 1991 and the submarine was returned back to Vladivostock, Russia where it was decommissioned from Russian Naval service.

The Russian crew that trained the Indian submariners have now taken key posts, probably in the Indian Naval Design Organisation, to design India's nuclear powered submarine codenamed the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV). This top secret project has facilities in New Delhi, Vizag, Hyderabad and Kalapakkam. A Naval Wing of DRDO runs the organization and since 1985 has had a retired Vice Admiral in charge. In late 2000, the ATV project was given a new lease of life with the appointment of Vice Admiral R.N. Ganesh to take charge. An experienced submariner, he commanded the Charlie I Class {INS Chakra} submarine when she was leased to India.

The hull design is ready and the displacement is estimated to be at 6000 tons. The 190 MW miniature nuclear propulsion system has been tested ashore, possibly at the Kalapakkam atomic research centre. Given the degree of Russian technical assistance, the submarine could resemble the Severodvinsk Class and/or the Akula Class. Reportedly, the submarine will have VLS tubes capable of firing multiple weapons. Fabrication has already commenced at Vizag, but there are no indications as to when the vessel will be laid down or launched. The plan is for a class of five submarines fitted with long-range, nuclear-tipped missiles. A nuclear-capable missile (dubbed 'Sagarika' by the press) is reportedly under development at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) at Bangalore, in southern India.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

source : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/ATV.html

[rickusn]

Here is an edited version of my thoughts posted on another forum in response to an inquiry on the future of the Indian Navy. Any corrections or other thoughts most welcome:

Making predictions about the Indian Navy even a coupla years into the future is difficult much less ten.

But Ill give it a shot force structure-wise anyways.

SUBMARINES

0-1? SSBN (Not likely but possible)
0-4? SSN (possible but not a sure bet)
16-20 SSK Russian/German/French(without a doubt and maybe more)

CARRIERS

1-3 Vikrant class
1 Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)

DDG

0-6? VLS/Phased-Array radar
3 Project 15A Bangalore Class
3 Project 15 Dehli Class

FFG

3-12 Project 17 Shivalik class
3 Talwar class

FF

3-6 Project 16/16A Godavari/Improved Godavari class (The three early ships have stability issues and could be decommissioned prematurely depending on the pace of current and future shipbuilding programs)

FFL

8 Project 25/25A Khukri class

I see as many as forty Surface Combatants in a combination of the types mentioned above. There are now twenty-eight in-commission.

I discussed the future Amphibious situation in a thread below:

"Selling two LHA 1 class (Plus granting two others as spares hulks) and four LSD 41 class ships to India is intriguing IMHO.

This would give India a ready-made credible amphibious force for very little cost."

plus this:

"(1) INDIA.—To the Government of India, the AUSTIN class amphibious transport dock ship TRENTON (LPD-14)."

So to reiterate I see a possible fleet of six LHA/LPD/LSD Type ships augmented with approx. six LST type ships.

There logistic forces will have to be enlarged and upgraded for any prospect of continuous, sustained operations on a world-wide basis. Only three now. By comparison the British Royal Navy has thirteen.

Plus approx 30 Patrol ships, Patrol Craft and Guided-Missle Craft.

Plus approx 20 Mine warfare ships.

Hope this is helpful.

[XEROX]

If the U.S offered the Indian Navy the complete Aegis system what DDG would they mount it on, can they have it on the the Bangalore 15a??

[rickusn]

If the U.S offered the Indian Navy the complete Aegis system what DDG would they mount it on, can they have it on the the Bangalore 15a??

They could but too late for this design I think.

[nalan]

well guys here is a realy interesting news,

The 2 nd International Naval & Defence Show (IMDS-2005) that was held in St Petersburg, Russia, from June 29 to July 5 provided a deep insight into several capital procurement programmes, both on-going and planned, of the Indian Navy. These include naval aviation aircraft and principal surface combatants, diesel-electric submarine (SSK) upgrades, as well as anti-ship/land-attack cruise missiles.

INS Vikramaditya
Extensive refit and upgrade work is now underway in Severodvinsk on converting the Krechyet-class (Type 1143.4) 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier (the Admiral Gorshkov) into the INS Vikramaditya, whose acquisition contract worth US$860 million was inked on 20 January 2004. Main industrial activity is led by the Sevmash State Production Association, with the others being Nevskoye Design Bureau, Northern Machine Building Enterprise, and Novaya Era JSC. The vessel, which is being reconfigured to primarily undertake offensive maritime strike and land attack operations, will be handed over to the IN by August 2008, by which time it will host a 14.3-degree bow-mounted ski-ramp, twin aircraft restraining stands, a 20-tonne capacity elevator beside the vessel's island superstructure and an aft lift with 30-tonne lift capacity, and three arresting gears on the aft section of the angled deck to facilitate fixed-short takeoff but arrested recovery (STOBAR) of fixed-wing combat aircraft. The vessel will accommodate 12 MiG-29Ks, four Kamov Ka-31 AEW helicopters, and two Ka-28PL ASW helicopters.

The vessel's combat/platform management and air situation display systems are being jointly developed by the Meridian Research & Production Enterprise, Granit Central Research Institute, Elektropribor, Salyut State Moscow Plant State Unitary Enterprise and Octagon Systems. The electronic warfare suite will be derived from the TK-25E-5 suite that is on board the IN's three Project 1135.6 Talwar-class guided-missile frigates (FFG). For close-in and area air defence, INS Vikramaditya will be armed with twin 3M88 Kashtan CADS-N1 modules (each comprising 32 9M311 laser-guided anti-missile missiles and two six-barrelled 30mm GSh-630K gatling guns plus a fire-control radar and optronic director) , as well as the Shtil-1 system developed by the Dolgoprudnenskoye Naucsno-Proizvodstvennoye Predpriyatie JSC, which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern. The Shtil-1 will comprise one MR-700M active phased-array radar and twin vertical-launch modules mounted fore and aft of the island, with each module comprising twin rotary carousels each containing 12 9M317ME surface-to-air missiles (SAM) developed by the Altair Naval Radio Electronics Scientific Institute JSC. A dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor will provide the SAM with a maximum speed of Mach 4.5. Fire-control and guidance is by a combination of inertial and semi-active radar homing (using four MT-90 Orekh target illuminators). Launch weight of the SAM is 581kg, its range is between 3.5km and 32km, and the missile will contain a 62kg warhead initiated by a dual-mode, active radar proximity fuze. The Shtil-1 has also been chosen for installation on board the IN's three Project 15A Bangalore-class guided-missile destroyers (DDG) now under construction.

Carrier-Based MiG-29K
Senior officials of Russian Aircraft Corp-MiG confirmed during IMDS-2005 that fabrication of the first MiG-29KUB tandem-seat operational conversion trainer prototype (Project 9-47) and the first MiG-29K multi-role combat aircraft prototype (Project 9-41) began last March, with the former due to make its maiden flight on December 25 this year, and the latter in March 2006. Detailed negotiations for this contract had begun in July 1999. Following extensive flight-testing and airworthiness certification, the first production-series MiG-29K/KUBs will be delivered to the IN by June 2007. The IN has to date ordered 12 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs plus related support hardware/software and guided-weapons worth $740 million, and has options on ordering a follow-on batch of 26 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs before 2015. The IN has already ordered a full-mission simulator from a joint venture company comprising RAC-MiG and Germany's Rheinmetall DeTec, and will shortly order a carrier deck-landing simulator from the same entity.

The MiG-29K/KUBs will each feature a digital three-channel fly-by-wire flight control system and a single-channel analogue back-up control system; twin folding outer-wing panels; larger, double-slotted trailing-edge flaps; rectangular leading-edge vortex controllers (LEVCON) fitted to the wing-root extensions; and increased displacement (30-degree) leading-edge flaps. The leading-edge flaps will deploy automatically while the LEVCONs will be deflected only during landing for increasing the aircraft's lift and stability. Ramenskoye-based RPKB Avionics Design Bureau along with the Moscow-based GosNIIAS Institute is integrating the aircraft's avionics suite via a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus, as well as developing the on-board mission computer and cockpit instrumentation. The MiG-29K will be equipped with Phazotron-NIIR's ZHUK-ME multi-mode X-band, monopulse radar that has a range of 120km, can track 20 airborne targets and engage four of them simultaneously, and has a synthetic aperture mode for real-beam terrain mapping. The nose-mounted 13SM infra-red search-and-track system developed by UOMZ will incorporate a laser rangefinder with a 16.2km range, will feature diamond glass to protect the optronics' lens, and most notably, will be integrated with the TopSight-E helmet-mounted sight/display supplied by THALES of France.

The MiG-29K's all-glass cockpit will have HOTAS controls, and be devoid of any standby electro-mechanical instrumentation. On-board displays will include the RRKB 1KSh-1MT monochromatic, wide-angle heads-up display, plus three MFI-10 6-inch by 8-inch active matrix liquid crystal displays (AMLCD). The MiG-29KUB's rear cockpit will contain four MFI-10s. The GLONASS GPS receiver on board will be integrated with THALES' Totem ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system. Avionics built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd such as TACAN, ILS receiver, VOR/DME receiver, VHF/UHF radios, IFF transponder, radar altimeter; and the Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver made by state-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd will also be installed. The electronic countermeasures suite will comprise ELTA of Israel's EL/L-8222 jamming pod on the starboard outer underwing pylon, plus twin Russian 16-round, 50mm downward-firing flare dispensers located in the rear fuselage outboard of the engine nacelles.

Powerplant for each of the MiG-29K/KUBs will comprise twin Klimov RD -33-10MK turbofans each rated at 19,842lb (88.25kN) thrust with afterburning. The turbofans will also feature smokeless combustion chambers and full-authority digital engine controls. Both aircraft types will be equipped with retractable in-flight refuelling probes, will have an internal fuel capacity of 5.2 tonnes, and will also be able to carry a 2,150-litre fuel pod on the centreline station and two 1,150-litre tanks under the wings, or a total of four of the latter for buddy-buddy refuelling via a Zvezda PAZ-1MK refuelling pod. As the MiG-29Ks' secondary role will be fleet air defence, they will each be armed with four Vympel-built R-77 beyond visual range and four R-73E within visual range air combat missiles. Primary offensive armament will include twin Zvezda-Strela Research & Production Corp-built 3M-24E1 subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles with on-board GLONASS GPS receiver and a range of 225km (also be to carried by the IN's to-be-upgraded Ka-28PL and Sea King Mk42B shipborne helicopters), or four Kh-31P Krypton 110km-range supersonic anti-radiation missiles, four KAB-500Kr or KAB-5000D laser/TV-guided bombs, or a single Novator-built 3M-14E land-attack cruise missile, all of which can be carried by the aircraft's eight underwing stores stations (the four inner stations can each carry twin pylons).

Principal Combatants
Severnoye Design Bureau officials confirmed that the IN's Project 28 ASW corvette will be derived from the Bureau's Project 20382 design. The Bureau is closely cooperating with the IN's Directorate of Naval Design and Weapons Engineering & Electronics Systems Engineering Establishment (WEESEE), and state-owned Garden Reach Shipbuilding & Engineering to produce detailed engineering drawings using TRIBON CAD/CAM software. The six planned Project 28 vessels will each displace 1,800 tonnes, have a length of 94 metres, beamwidth of 13 metres and a draught of 3.5 metres. Its CODAG propulsion system, comprising twin gas turbines, twin diesel engines and twin diesel generators will drive two-shaft, controllable-pitch propellers. The corvette will have a maximum speed of 27 Knots, range of 4,000nm, endurance of 15 days and a crew compliment of 85. The helicopter deck will be able to house either the dipping sonar-equipped Ka-28PL or Naval Dhruv. The armaments package will comprise one eight-cell vertical launcher for Novator-built 3M-54E Klub-N 220km-range supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles (identical to the ones on board the IN's three Project 1135.6 FFGs), 3R60-UM fire-control system, Garpun Bal-E surface target engagement radar, one OTOBreda 76/62 main gun, twin 12-barrelled RBU-6000 ASW mortar launchers, twin 324mm ILAS triple-tube torpedo launchers for launching Franco-Italian Eurotorp-built MU-90 lightweight torpedoes, and one 16-cell Barak-1 VLS anti-missile defence system with twin EL/M-2221 STGR target illuminators. On-board mission sensors will include the indigenous DRDO/LRDE-developed L-band Central Acquisition Radar, Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A navigation radar, an ultra low-frequency active/passive towed array sonar, towed torpedo decoy, and a close-in decoy system with four chaff/flare decoy launchers.

Igor Orlov, Deputy Director-General the Zvezdochka Shipbuilding Plant in Severodvinsk, said that since 1999 the Plant has undertaken the mid-life refits-cum-upgrades (developed by Zvyozdochka Onega Research and Development Technological Bureau) of four of the IN's 10 in-service Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs, with the St Petersburg-based Admiralty Shipyard undertaking similar work on two more SSKs. It takes two years and $80 million to undertake such work, which includes installation of the Morphyspribor-built MGK-400EM sonar suite, Avrora JSC-built Palladij-M integrated platform management system, and KALIBRE-PLE weapon system (including Agat Research & Production Enterprise's 3R14N-11356 fire-control system) for enabling the SSK to fire from its 533mm (21-inch) tubes up to four 3M-54E Klub-S or 3M-14E cruise missiles, and TEST-71ME-NK torpedoes. The seventh IN Kilo-class SSK (INS Sindhukirti S-61) will be overhauled and upgraded by the Vizag-based, state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Ltd with the help of Zvezdochka under a recently-inked technology transfer agreement. This SSK, like the INS Sindhughosh , will house the Panchendriya integrated sonar suite and its USHUS bow-mounted sonar jointly developed by the DRDO, WEESEE and the IN's Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory.

Meanwhile, the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (CDBME) has given a detailed proposal to the IN regarding the supply of type-specific full-mission simulators for both the Type 877EKM SSK and the Amur 1650 SSK. These simulators will be located at Vizag.

MP/ASW Aircraft
Officials from Taganrog Aviation Company (TAVIA) confirmed that the IN's eight Tupolev Tu-142ME Mod 4 long-range MP/ASW aircraft have been undergoing service life-extensions (for being in service till 2015) at a rate of one per month since September 2004. The officials disclosed that the IN had issued separate, restricted Requests for Information to Russian and Israeli companies in November 2003 for extending the aircraft's service life and replacing the mission sensor suite at a cost not exceeding $555.5 million. Subsequently, Rosoboronexport State Corp's offer for the Morskoy Zmei (Sea Dragon) suite was rejected in January 2004 due to performance deficiencies and its price tag of $888.9 million. A month later, an IN proposal calling for ELTA to supply the mission sensor suite, with TAVIA only undertaking structural service life-extension work was rejected by Rosoboronexport. Consequently, the IN decided to proceed only with airframe refurbishment work and retain the Tu-142ME Mod 4's existing Korshun (Black Kite) sensor suite developed by Leninets Holding Co.

In contrast, the IN's $205 million service life-extension-cum-upgrade programme for its five IL-38s (including the two attrition replacements that were given free of charge to the IN by Russia following the loss due to a tragic mid-air collision of two IL-38s at Dabolim on October 1, 2002) is proceeding smoothly and is being jointly undertaken by Ilyushin Co's Khodinka facility, Leninets and NIIS St Petersburg. The first IL-38 arrived in Russia on March 29, 2002 and following its refurbishment and upgrade, made its maiden flight on July 3, 2003. Work included replacing the Berkut (Golden Eagle) sensor suite with the Novella , which comprises a 2SDI multi-mode I/J-band search radar, chin-mounted SD-5 optronic sensor suite, two-man workstation equipped with large AMLCDs, 92-channel SD-2 acoustic processor, new-generation sonobuoys, new SD-3 magnetic anomaly detector, 2SD9 ELINT/ESM suite (strut-mounted above the forward fuselage), and tactical data links, all integrated by a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus. The remaining four aircraft, which will remain in service till 2020, are now being upgraded at Dabolim to the IL-38SD standard. These aircraft will also be equipped with underwing pylons for launching R-73E air combat missiles, plus a pylon on each fuselage side to fire both MBDA-built Sea Eagle and 3M24E1 subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles.

Guided-Missiles
While the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile (MRCM) will definitely be installed on board each of the IN's three Project 15A Bangalore-class guided-missile destroyers (DDG) on order in a 16-cell (710mm diameter each) vertical-launch silo, and on the five Project 61A Kashin II-class DDGs (in twin inclined quad launchers and in an eight-cell vertical launch silo that replaces the aft below-deck helicopter hangar), efforts are now underway to tailor the eight-cell vertical launch silo module for the IN's three Project 17 guided-missile frigates, all of which have already been launched and are now being fitted out by Mazagon Docks Ltd. In addition, BrahMos Aerospace, along with CDBME, has modified the Amur 1650 SSK's design that now enables the vessel to accommodate both an 8-cell vertical launcher for the BrahMos, as well as an air-independent propulsion system.

http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/631/image817xj.jpg

looks a bit ugly doent it.

[Django]

The reason is prob politically influenced. As I know fm GE NY every decision in defence procurement is a mix of military demands, financial limitations and lots of political interests.

BTW: Indian NY operates German 209 + Russian Kilo Class subs. What are the experiences the IN NY made with this two very different types of subs regarding maintainance, readiness, operational capabilities.
IMHO this are relevant factors in a procurement decision.

[aaaditya]

hdw was backlisted when india evaluated the scorpene now a fresh evaluation with the hdw involved will delay the submarine acquisition process by several years and hence indian navy wants to stick to the scorpene.

[Francois]

Hello, this is my first post here.
IN is pretty pissed off with her russian hardware. Especially since they can compare to westerner stuff.
For the Kilos (and the Fox also), they find them critically underpowered and the level of availability is very very low (less then 20%, often 10%).
They like the russian torpedoes tho.
But they are cheap!

At the end of the day, two Scorpenes or 214s will go more often to sea the 5 Kilos or equivalent. But again they cost more to buy.

[gf0012-aust]

hdw was backlisted when india evaluated the scorpene now a fresh evaluation with the hdw involved will delay the submarine acquisition process by several years and hence indian navy wants to stick to the scorpene.

no that is incorrect, HDW were blacklisted due to issues of Kickback claims which have now been shuffled off. Interestingly enough, this was around the same time that DCN and Dassault were "company non gratis" for attempting kickbacks in Taiwan and Giat were blacklisted for perverting trials in Sthn Europe over some French kit.

the HDW decision will not delay the sub purchase, in fact blind freddy can see that already existing HDW infrastructure means that their boats can be fast tracked a lot more quickly and with less disruption.

that is a fallacious argument put forward by DCN and holds no water if analysed in the clear light of day.

at the end of the day, both types need to be assessed on real issues, not trumped up ones - be it from DCN or HDW.

[gf0012-aust]

Hello, this is my first post here.

welcome mate. ;) people will think we're stalking each other. ;)

maybe you can some other clarity to some of these posts.

as for the issue of the Kilos. They've been problematic not only on sea time, but also due to the fact that the export models are not as quiet (significantly) as the local versions. One only has to look at the latest launch and see the prop design on the back to see that it will sound like a "mini bike in a child care centre" ;)

[Francois]

Yes, thanx Gary.
You know, I am trying to find some "smart" forums here-on, but 99% are not. So, it is were great spirits are meeting, uh?
Ok, self-compliment mode OFF.

You know, the reputation of the Kilos was 90% given by authors like DiMercurio and Robinson. But these ppl didn't even get close to one of these boats. They are not what they seem. We are not living in a novel book here.

This being said, I still believe a good type-XXI with a good crew could do marvels in the South China Sea or the Med...

PS how I can turn off the by-mail-answer stuff?

[gf0012-aust]

You know, the reputation of the Kilos was 90% given by authors like DiMercurio and Robinson. But these ppl didn't even get close to one of these boats. They are not what they seem. We are not living in a novel book here.

exactly. but too many people get seduced by people such as robinson, brown etc....



This being said, I still believe a good type-XXI with a good crew could do marvels in the South China Sea or the Med...

update an oberon or an agosta with a modern FCS and digitals, and have some decent crew training and you could do some serious damage.


PS how I can turn off the by-mail-answer stuff?

top right hand corer, click on User Manager and then tick/untick to your hearts content!

[Francois]

Just look what Sing' ppl did with their old A-12s.
And they didn't have a past in submarine forces. These ppl know how to use them now!

[gf0012-aust]

Just look what Sing' ppl did with their old A-12s.
And they didn't have a past in submarine forces. These ppl know how to use them now!

the Sings are a good example of what can be done. They're using new French and Oz management systems in those boats.

They're also topshelf in skimmer ASW, they've given a few OPFORS the frights in recent wargames.

[Francois]

hmmm officially, they refuses to say they upgraded the systems of these boats.
shhhh...

[gf0012-aust]

hmmm officially, Thales refuses to say they upgraded the CDS of these boats.
Maybe you are giving out secrets here...

nah mate, I haven't said who or what specifically was upgraded... :D

[Francois]

Yes, right, me neither LOL

[aaaditya]

seems india will be acquiring 3 more krivak-3's(hope these are the more advanced variants of the original 3),seems india is satisfied with original three.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2005/08/15/042.html

Last year, Baltiisky completed the delivery of three frigates to India under a 1997 contract for nearly $1 billion. Now, the Indians are interested in ordering three more, Tsyplakov said, indicating that the April agreement with Severnaya may be moot after the change in ownership.

"About a month ago, [arms export agency] Rosoboronexport received a draft contract for three more frigates in which Baltiisky Zavod is identified as the contractor," Tsyplakov said.

The Federal Industry Agency is now deciding which facility -- Baltiisky or Severnaya -- will get the more than $1 billion contract, he said.

The OPK deal falls in line with government plans to combine assets in the defense industry into holdings.

Boris Alyoshin, head of the Federal Industry Agency, said last week that the government was considering setting up two shipping holdings: one to unite submarine makers; the other, surface-ship manufacturers. At the time, Alyoshin said the surface-ship holding would be created on the basis of Severnaya and Baltiisky.

It was not clear on Sunday whether Oleg Shulyakovsky would keep his post as Baltiisky's general director, though Tsyplakov said "he will be useful to OPK, especially in view of the [upcoming] contract with India."

[rickusn]

Very interesting> I really didnt think India would buy three more.

[aaaditya]

the deal was for 3 ships and 3 options(i beleive the second 3 will be more advanced than the first 3 since russia has claimed to have offered a further improved variant for the russian navy).:coffee

[aaaditya]

well seems india is finally going for the scorpene though it would have been better had they been fitted with the mm40 exocet block2000 missile.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=100872



NEW DELHI, AUG 29: India is expected to clear the way for the purchase of six ‘Scorpene’ submarines from French companies DCN and Thales.


http://banners.expressindia.com/adsnew/adlog.php?bannerid=972&clientid=170&zoneid=422&source=&block=0&capping=0&cb=eb5b0eb09c60835973539a0ad8c18e98

Senior officials told FE that the Cabinet would clear the $2 billion deal shortly as a prelude to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s three-day visit to France from September 11, on his way to New York next month.

The submarines will be built at the state-owned Mazagon dockyard in Mumbai, with technical assistance and equipment from French companies. The submarines are to be delivered between 2010 and 2015. As part of the deal, the submarines would be armed with EADS SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles.

However, Naval headquarters is worried that its fleet, “particularly the submarine strike arm”, was de-commissioning vessels faster than it can acquire them. “We have waited long, too long actually,” said the chief of naval staff, Admiral Arun Prakash, when asked about the proposal to acquire the Scorpene submarines.

The Cabinet committee on security is expected to meet later this week to discuss the proposal on Scorpene submarines, that had been cleared by naval headquarters nearly a year back. India has been in negotiations with France to acquire and jointly develop six 1,500-tonne Scorpene submarines at the Mazagon docks. Sources in the defence ministry said that there has been indication that the deal had currently been put on hold due to comments of the French ambassador in India, Dominique Girard, on the Airbus deal.:coffee

[XEROX]

About time to, the Navy needs submarines badly,

on other news concerning the navy


L&T plans manufacture of big ships
Our Corporate Bureau / Mumbai August 27, 2005


Engineering and construction major Larsen & Toubro is planning to build large ships —a business till now monopolised by South Korean and Japanese companies. Addressing shareholders at the company’s 60th annual general meeting today, L&T Chairman and Managing Director AM Naik said, “Ship-building can become one of the focus areas of the company. L&T is now into production of submarines and small vessels. There is good potential for big ship-building activity across the world. China is also trying to start building ships in a big way.” But he said a final decision on this was yet to be taken. “The company is confident of doing good in this area of business, considering its high-calibre engineering skills,” Naik said. Alongside, the company will consider the consolidation of its special purpose vehicles (SPVs) through which international projects were executed. L&T has strategised its growth plans—christened Lakshya— for five years beginning 2005. Under the plan, it targets generating $6 billion in revenues in the next five years. More than 25 per cent of this revenue were expected to be made through the company’s international projects, he said. Along with the engineering and construction projects, L&T will bid for strategic sectors like defence aerospace and nuclear.

Link (http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage.php?chklogin=N&autono=198518&lselect=1&leftnm=lmnu1&leftindx=1)

L&T now producing submarines, does this mean L&T are constructing 2 or more ATVs simultaneously

[aaaditya]

[QUOTE=PJ-10 BrahMos]About time to, the Navy needs submarines badly,

on other news concerning the navy




Link (http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage.php?chklogin=N&autono=198518&lselect=1&leftnm=lmnu1&leftindx=1)

L&T now producing submarines, does this mean L&T are constructing 2 or more ATVs simultaneously [/QUO
their plan was to jointly develop the russian amur1650 submarines with kirloskar marine engines at hazira.
by the way check this article it's got some realy great information on the p28 stealth corvettes,the submarine programme and the aircraft carrier.

http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_19753.shtml

Severnoye Design Bureau officials confirmed that the IN's Project 28 ASW corvette will be derived from the Bureau's Project 20382 design. The Bureau is closely cooperating with the IN's Directorate of Naval Design and Weapons Engineering & Electronics Systems Engineering Establishment (WEESEE), and state-owned Garden Reach Shipbuilding & Engineering to produce detailed engineering drawings using TRIBON CAD/CAM software. The six planned Project
28 vessels will each displace 1,800 tonnes, have a length of 94 metres, beamwidth of 13 metres and a draught of 3.5 metres. Its CODAG propulsion system, comprising twin gas turbines, twin diesel engines and twin diesel generators will drive two-shaft, controllable-pitch propellers. The corvette will have a maximum speed of 27 Knots, range of 4,000nm, endurance of 15 days and a crew compliment of 85. The helicopter deck will be able to house either the dipping sonar-equipped Ka-28PL or Naval Dhruv. The armaments package will comprise one eight-cell vertical launcher for Novator-built
3M-54E Klub-N 220km-range supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles (identical to the ones on board the IN's three Project 1135.6 FFGs), 3R60-UM fire-control system, Garpun Bal-E surface target engagement radar, one OTOBreda 76/62 main gun, twin 12-barrelled RBU-6000 ASW mortar launchers, twin 324mm ILAS triple-tube torpedo launchers for launching Franco-Italian Eurotorp-built MU-90 lightweight torpedoes, and one 16-cell Barak-1 VLS anti-missile defence system with twin EL/M-2221 STGR target illuminators. On-board mission sensors will include the indigenous DRDO/LRDE-developed L-band Central Acquisition Radar, Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A navigation radar, an ultra low-frequency active/passive towed array sonar, towed torpedo decoy, and a close-in decoy system with four chaff/flare decoy launchers
:coffee
the klubs also have antisubmarine capability.:coffee

[ArjunMK1]

India wants the tech of Scorpene to build its own subs and ATV.

[aaaditya]

you know it would be better if india went for the hdw214 class of submarine they seem to be miles ahead of the scorpene and also their offer is more attractive.:coffee

[aaaditya]

well here is some interesting news(i believe it belongs here).

Arms-laden ship detained

Kolkata port authorities in touch with Indonesia




KOLKATA: : A cargo vessel carrying arms, ammunition and a large quantity of explosives headed for Indonesia has been detained by the Kolkata Port Trust authorities at the Kidderpore docks following a request from the local customs authorities.

The customs authorities had sought time to check on details concerning the delivery of the consignment before allowing MV Eugenia to leave the berthing docks, Anup Kumar Chanda, Chairman, Kolkata Port Trust, told The Hindu here on Sunday.

The matter has been referred to the customs authorities in New Delhi who will be seeking a confirmation regarding the delivery of the consignment from the Indonesian officials concerned. The vessel, registered in the Honduras, arrived at the Kidderpore docks last week and was to have set sail on Friday.

UNI reports:

Official sources said, ``the vessel has been carrying arms, ammunition and 20 tonnes of explosives. It's a huge consignment and a serious matter. Unless Indonesian authorities inform us that this consignment is meant for them, we cannot allow the vessel to leave the Kidderpore docks."

``The vessel was still unloading iron pipes brought from Romania and it may take a couple of more days to complete it,'' they added. Sources in the Kolkata Port Trust said the ship had been taking a long time to unload the iron pipes because only one crane was being used. The vessel also developed a hole on Saturday and the crewmembers were busy repairing it.

http://www.hindu.com/2005/09/05/stories/2005090505591500.htm

:coffee
so what do you guys think will the vessel be confisticated or released,this is the second such incident in the last 12 years ,last time it was a north korean vessel carrying surface to surface missile parts which was captured after a raid at haldia port and the vessel and the cargo were confisticated(they listed the cargo as sugar,which was found to be missile parts and blueprints hindden in a false compartment).:D

[aaaditya]

sindhugosh is coming back with new teeth.

Indian sub completes tests in Russia's northhttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/spacer.gif
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/spacer.gif
AFPhttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/images/spacer.gif[ TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 06, 2005 10:05:47 AM ]
MOSCOW: An Indian submarine that has been undergoing maintenance and upgrading work in Russia's north, has completed a series of tests in the White Sea naval test grounds, the Interfax news agency reported.

The Sindhugosh diesel-electric Kilo-class submarine was brought to Russia's Zvyozdochka shipyards for planned repairs in 2002 and is due to be turned over to the Indian navy in late October, Zvyozdochka's officials said late on Monday.

As part of the upgrading, the sub had been equipped with a new Club-S anti-ship missile unit, and had its hydro-acoustic equipment and combat control and navigation systems upgraded.

Two other Indian subs, Sindhuratna and Sindhuvir, had already been repaired at Zvyozdochka and another, Sindhuvijai, is next in line.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshowbnews/1221542.cms

well i believe sindhugosh was fitted with the indian ushus sonar which was found to be superior to the russian sonar.:coffee

[ashblackhawk]

I think the deal with DCN on Scorpene is through and will be announced shortly.

[aaaditya]

well the deal has been announced.



India orders 6 Franco-Spanish submarines

Reuters (http://www.expressindia.com/about/feedback.html?url=http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=54121&headline=India~orders~6~Franco-Spanish~submarines&title=India%20orders%206%20Franco-Spanish%20submarines)
Posted online: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 at 1919 hours IST


Paris, September 6: India has ordered six submarines developed by a group of French and Spanish companies in a deal worth 2.4 billion euros, newspaper La Tribune reported on its web site on Tuesday.

order for Scorpene submarines will generate revenue of 1.2 billion euros for Armaris, a unit of French shipbuilder DCN and defence electronics group Thales, the paper said.

Officials at Thales were not immediately available for comment, but a DCN spokeswoman cautioned that "the Indian government had not notified Armaris of its approval".

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=54121&headline=India~orders~6~Franco-Spanish~submarines#compstory

finally , now i hope they take a quick decision regarding the second submarine line.:coffee

[aaaditya]

hey guys ins betwa has become the first indian warship to have an indigenously designed combat management system known as the emmca.

INS Betwa is India's first warship with combat data systems

SOMEWHERE IN THE ARABIAN SEA: Guided missile frigate, Betwa , has reserved a place for itself in the navy’s hall of fame by becoming the first Indian warship to have successfully integrated indigenous combat data systems with a wide variety of foreign/Indian weapons and sensors onboard.
Commissioned into the Navy last July, the steampowered frigate has combined Bharat Electronics Ltd-designed EMCCA (Equipment Modular for Command and Control Application) systems with its gunnery, anti-submarine weapons and sensors to synchronise the ship’s fighting capabilities.

Other naval ships have married European/Russian technology platforms with their weapons and sensors in a fashion that enables commanders to arrive at accurate engagement decisions during combat.

Dubbed as ‘ The Tenacious Torrent’ , Betwa belongs to the Brahmaputra class of guided missile frigates. While Brahmaputra was the first warship to be equipped with the BEL combat data systems four years ago, it is Betwa that has validated the indigenous technology platform.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1223686.cms :coffee

[aaaditya]

well finally here is the article regarding the scorpene deal in an indian newspaper(i see it as a confirmation that indian has finally decided on the scorpene).

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1485696,0008.htm

[aaaditya]

well finally seems the brahmos has been inducted in the navy(the kashin class vessels would be able to carry 8 of them).
also they will be provided guidance by the israeli uav's
http://www.forceindia.net/cover2.asp:coffee

[aaaditya]

well seems indo-indonesian joint patrols have begun.

INDIA INDONESIA CO-ORDINATED PATROL BEGINS </FONT>15:59 IST The fifth India Indonesia Co-ordinated Patrol got underway with the arrival of Indonesian Naval Ship KRI Teuku Umar, commanded by Major Irvansyah, at Port Blair on 01 Sep 05. Colonel Aswoto Saranang, the Commanding Officer Naval Base Sabang, was also embarked onboard the ship as Senior Officer. The Indonesian naval ship is a Parchim class corvette of German origin, an advanced patrol ship with antisubmarine warfare capabilities. The ship joined the Indonesian Naval Fleet in 1997 and is presently based at Jakarta.

The present patrol will last from 01 to 30 Sep 05. From the Indian side, four ships comprising guided missile corvette INS Kulish, Landing Ship Tank INS Mahish and two Fast Attack Crafts Tarassa and Tilanchong are taking part in the coordinated patrol. The objective of coordinated patrol is to enhance mutual understanding and inter-operability between the two navies and conduct joint patrol to prevent smuggling, piracy, drug trafficking, sea pollution and illegal fishing.

The first India-Indonesia Coordinated patrol commenced in September 2002 following an agreement between the two governments on cooperative activities in the field of defence. Since then, four joint patrols have been successfully executed along the International Boundary Line (IBL) between the two countries in accordance with mutually agreed guidelines and procedures.

[aaaditya]

well seems that the russian willnow be setting up a maintainence facility in india.


Russia launches pilot project on military hardware maintenance in India


21:32|08/ 09/ 2005http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif (http://en.rian.ru/business/20050908/41343380-print.html)



NEW DELHI, September 8 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian-Indian joint venture Rosoborontekhservis India, seeking to provide technical maintenance for Russian vessels on service in Indian Navy, was unveiled Thursday in New Delhi.

Anatoly Nigreyev, the director of the newly formed concern, said the enterprise would be responsible for all kinds of technical maintenance and repairs and for supplying parts for Indian Naval vessels and submarines.

Military experts estimate that Russian-produced vessels account for 70% of the Indian Navy.

The new joint venture consists of seven enterprises of the Russian defense complex and Rosoboronexport, which has the largest share in the new company. The Indian Navy's repair market is estimated at $200 million annually.

http://en.rian.ru/business/20050908/41343380.html :coffee

[aaaditya]

well here is another interesting article (indo-russia-china trilateral excercises)

Russians are coming amid talk of trilateral pact


NEW DELHI, SEPT 7: Top guns from the Russian armament industry are visiting India on September 8 for high-powered presentation to the Indian Navy and the ministry of defence.


This is the first time in the history of Indo-Russian defence cooperation that such a high-level delegation led by major-general Viacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy director FS MTS, is coming here. The visit coincides with news that Russia is making efforts for a Russian-Chinese-Indian military cooperation initiative.

According to reports in the Russian media, Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov has made a proposal to India to hold major Russian-Chinese-Indian military exercises similar to the recent manoeuvers it had held with China last month. The 20-member Russian team shall present to the defence ministry and the Indian Navy on Friday, the framework under which the new joint venture, Rosoboronservice India Ltd, has been put together to resolve India’s long standing problems with regard to after sales service and maintenance of Soviet and Russian supplied naval assets.

here is the full article:

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=101819 :coffee

[Defcon 6]

well here is another interesting article (indo-russia-china trilateral excercises)

Russians are coming amid talk of trilateral pact


NEW DELHI, SEPT 7: Top guns from the Russian armament industry are visiting India on September 8 for high-powered presentation to the Indian Navy and the ministry of defence.


This is the first time in the history of Indo-Russian defence cooperation that such a high-level delegation led by major-general Viacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy director FS MTS, is coming here. The visit coincides with news that Russia is making efforts for a Russian-Chinese-Indian military cooperation initiative.

According to reports in the Russian media, Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov has made a proposal to India to hold major Russian-Chinese-Indian military exercises similar to the recent manoeuvers it had held with China last month. The 20-member Russian team shall present to the defence ministry and the Indian Navy on Friday, the framework under which the new joint venture, Rosoboronservice India Ltd, has been put together to resolve India’s long standing problems with regard to after sales service and maintenance of Soviet and Russian supplied naval assets.

here is the full article:

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=101819 :coffee

And the cold war is back with a vengance. I knew the Russians were up to something.

[Defcon 6]

SEE THIS FIRST

Service
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Marine Corps
U.S. Navy
U.K. Royal Navy

Variants
Conventional Takeoff and Landing (CTOL)
Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing (STOVL)
Carrier-based (CV)

Unit CostFY94$
$28M
$35M
$38M

Inventory Objectives
U.S. Air Force 2,036 aircraft (CTOL)
U.S. Marine Corps642 aircraft (STOVL)
U.K. Royal Navy60 aircraft (STOVL)
U.S. Navy300 aircraft (CV)

Now mate what do you say how much you will get out of 60 :p:


The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter won't be offered for export.

[tatra]

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter won't be offered for export.

Oh really? I hope you mean "not for export to India" because else my government - which is paying a nice sum into F-35 development - will be really really pissed off.

[gf0012-aust]

Oh really? I hope you mean "not for export to India" because else my government - which is paying a nice sum into F-35 development - will be really really pissed off.

I think there will be about eight countries asking for refunds - as well as redefining their orbats....

Lets see, the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway are existing Tier1, 2 and 3 partners and now Singapore is sitting in the wings as a future buyer pending 20012-2015.

Nope definitely not for export. ;)

[aaaditya]

I think there will be about eight countries asking for refunds - as well as redefining their orbats....

Lets see, the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway are existing Tier1, 2 and 3 partners and now Singapore is sitting in the wings as a future buyer pending 20012-2015.

Nope definitely not for export. ;)
can any other country join the jsf project at this stage now(let's say make monetary investments in the project or the associated systems.)
does usa need to acquire permission of all the participating countries if they want to offer some susbsystems(like the aesa,avionics and the engine) of the jsf on say f-16's being sold to a non member of the jsf club.:coffee

[aaaditya]

finally the scorpene deal has been signed,it's been confirmed by the french president.(saw it in ndtv news)


France confirms India's submarine purchase

(http://www.expressindia.com/about/feedback.html?url=http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=54519&title=France%20confirms%20India's%20submarine%20pu rchase)
Posted online: Monday, September 12, 2005 at 1805 hours IST
Updated: Monday, September 12, 2005 at 1807 hours IST

Paris, September 12: India is to purchase six Scorpene submarines developed by a group of French and Spanish companies and 43 planes from European aircraft maker Airbus, French President Jacques Chirac said on Monday.


Chirac confirmed the purchases during a visit by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Paris.

"I am happy that the Prime Minister is today confirming India's decision concerning the purchase of 6 Scorpene submarines and 43 Airbus planes," Chirac said. French defence electronics group Thales said its part of the submarine deal is worth close to 600 million euros ($739.4 million).
Thales said in a statement that the Indian government had chosen Armaris, a joint venture between Thales and French shipbuilder DCN, as prime contractor for the technology transfer programme for the submarines, which will be built in India.


The submarine deal, initially estimated to be worth about $1.8 billion, is the latest in a series of defence purchases by New Delhi which is on a modernising spree of its ageing, largely Russian-origin military equipment.

It comes on the back of $5.7 billion worth of arms purchases by New Delhi last year, which took it past Saudi Arabia and China to become the developing world's leading buyer, according to a US Congress study.

The French submarine deal involves the manufacture of six Scorpene SSK-class submarines at a naval dockyard in Mumbai. The new submarines will replace ageing vessels in the Indian navy's fleet of 16 diesel submarines.

Singh said last week he had cleared the purchase of 43 aircraft from European plane maker Airbus for state-run Indian Airlines to replace its ageing fleet. The value of this contract would be in the region of $2.2 billion, he said. Airbus is 80 per cent owned by the European Aeronautic Defence And Space Co (EADS) and 20 per cent by BAE Systems.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=54519
http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/12def.htm?q=tp&file=.htm

http://www.ndtv.com/topstories/showtopstory.asp?slug=India%2C+France+strategic+pa rtners%3A+Singh&id=17741&category=National :coffee

[ajay_ijn]

well finally seems the brahmos has been inducted in the navy(the kashin class vessels would be able to carry 8 of them).
also they will be provided guidance by the israeli uav's


This gr8 news, i was really waiting to see when brahmos will be inducted.

Cruise Missile Guidance given by a UAV!!!!

its is the first time i am hearing, gf is it seriously possible?

http://www.forceindia.net/cover2.asp

In future, all five of the navy's Kashin II-class DDGs will be upgraded to carry the BrahMos in a similar configuration. The missiles on board will be capable of both maritime strike and land attack. Efforts are now underway to integrate the BrahMos' navigation and guidance systems with high-speed data links that will be able to receive course-correction and terminal guidance cues from the navy's Heron II unmanned aerial vehicles and maritime patrol/ASW aircraft launched from shore-based air bases and equipped with SAR payloads, as well as from the ship-borne Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter. Currently, as part of on-going efforts to achieve a fair degree of proficiency in network-centric warfare, the IN's three Project 15-class DDGs, three Project 1135.6-class guided-missile frigates and the aircraft carrier INS Viraat are equipped with high-speed data links through which tactical control of the IN's Israel Aircraft Industries/MALAT-built Searcher Mk2 and Heron II UAVs (up to a range of 300km) is exercised while at sea for real-time maritime reconnaissance

[aaaditya]

well here is an interesting news on the scorpene (it is a thales press release):

Success for Thales in India on Scorpene submarine programmehttp://www.thalesgroup.com/picto/siege/common/pixtrans.gifNeuilly-sur-Seine, France, 12 Sep 2005 http://www.thalesgroup.com/picto/siege/common/pixtrans.gifThe Indian government has chosen Armaris, a joint venture between Thales and DCN, as prime contractor for the technology transfer programme under which six conventionally propelled Scorpène submarines will be built in India.

For Thales, the contract is worth nearly € 600 million.

As well as assuming prime contracting responsibilities through Armaris and providing assistance to the Indian shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Limited, Thales will supply key subsystems for the submarines' six SUBTICS(r) integrated combat systems, including underwater sensors, communications and optronics, and electronic warfare equipment.

The Thales Group welcomes the Indian government's decision, which signals a strengthening of the long-standing cooperation that has existed between India and France.

Denis Ranque, Thales Chairman and CEO added, "I am particularly proud of this success in India, brought about by the Armaris branch. This is the second submarine programme, after Malaysia, to which Thales contributes both technological and commercial expertise, thanks to the excellence of its international network."

Thales in India
Thales has been active in India for more than 50 years. The Group enjoys a strong cooperative relationship with the Indian armed forces and has provided equipment, systems and support for numerous platforms in service with the country's land, air and naval forces. Thales also has a strong presence in civil aviation (particularly as an equipment supplier for the Airbus airliners in service with Air India and Indian Airlines), and in the air navigation sector. Thales electronic fare collection systems have also been selected for the Delhi and Calcutta metros. As part of its multidomestic strategy, Thales recently expanded its local presence in India, setting up a new company in New Delhi in 2003. The new company, Thales International India, offers a range of IT and support services for local civil and military programmes.


http://www.thalesgroup.com/press/press_releases/1_9099_236_11801.html :coffee

[aaaditya]

well here is another interesting news article.



US offers eight P-3C Orion surveillance aircraft to IndiaBANGALORE, SEP 14 (PTI)

The US has offered to sell eight P-3C Orion naval reconnaissance aircraft to India and New Delhi is examining the proposal, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash said today.

The US has offered to modernise eight old P-3C Orion planes and supply to India, he told reporters here.

"We are examining that offer," the Naval Chief said.

Admiral Prakash said India needs some maritime reconnaissance aircraft as "we lost a few and some have retired." "So, we are looking out for a replacement. This (the US offer) is one of the candidates." Russia has also offered to sell naval reconnaissance aircraft to India, said the Naval chief who earlier inaugurated the 46th annual conference of the Indian Society of Aerospace Medicine here.

Pakistan has recently taken delivery of eight P-3C Orion patrol aircraft from the US. The planes, worth up to USD 970 million, were provided free of cost.

Orions, manufactured by US defence firm Lockheed Martin, are long-range maritime patrol aircraft with an endurance of 18 hours, reports said.

On the Scorpene submarines deal with France, the Naval chief said once India starts producing submarines, "our force level will be adequate to meet any threat." He said India will build six submarines at Mazgaon dock in Mumbai under license from the French.

"From the date the contract is signed which should be very shortly, the first submarine should be out in five or six years," Admiral Prakash said.

"After the first production of six submarines is over, we will design and produce our own submarines," he said. "We are required to have certain force level of submarines which were slowly running down because they were getting old and being decommissioned," he added Admiral Prakash said China is helping Pakistan to build a commercial port but it's not a cause for concern for New Delhi "at this moment." Asked if he anticipated "much more than that" (Chinese going beyond helping Pakistan in port building), he said "We are watching. We will see what happens in the future. We are prepared for any future developments. At this moment, there is no cause for concern or alarm to us." The Naval Chief said he was unaware of any move by Beijing to set up a naval intelligence unit in Pakistan or a naval base in that country.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=322836 :coffee

[aaaditya]

well here is another news article on the indian navy:

Russia offers sale of naval planes to India

India is considering a rival bid from Russia to sell naval surveillance and anti-submarine airplanes, even as it examines a United States offer of eight P3-C Orions, the country's naval chief said Wednesday.

Admiral Arun Prakash did not disclose which Russian model aircraft is being considered, but India's current maritime surveillance fleet comprises three Ilyushin-38s and eight Tupolev-142s, both Russian-made. He said the navy has not set a timeframe to decide on buying the naval planes, but that the negotiations are advancing.

"It is going take some time before we decide, " Prakash told reporters in Bangalore, on the fringes of an aviation seminar. "We will buy the one that offers the right price and meets our needs."

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14orion1.htm :coffee

the russian offer i believe is the an74(conventional design) equipped with the israeli elta el-m-2032 radar having sar/isar and range profiling capabilities.
i believe the other mpa's offered to india are usa-p3c orions(favourites),france has offered the atr75-500(for both navy and coast guard,besides setting up a full fledged manufacturing and maintainence facility to cater to both civil and millitary needs) and the falcon900x and indonesia has offered the cn235m(i believe the transport variant of this aircraft has been sold to pakistan),though i believe india is very much interested in joining the usa-p8mma project if allowed.russia had also offered to india navy the lease of 4 tu22m bombers (dont know the status of this deal). :coffee

[aaaditya]

seems after the initial 6 scorpene subs the remaining will be indian design (may be based on the scorpene,very much like the spanish s80).though i wish india could acquire the viking design which has been dropped sweden,norway and denmark and couple it with the sterling fuel cells.


http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE120050914120653&Page=1&Title=Bangalore&Topic=0

Admiral Prakash said these six submarines would be built under licence at the Mazagoan docks in Mumbai.

“After this series, we will design and build our own later.'' Stating that having submarines at sea increased the combat levels of the blue water navy, he said with the induction of these submarines, the force levels would be adequate to meet any threat.

:coffee

[kashifshahzad]

seems after the initial 6 scorpene subs the remaining will be indian design (may be based on the scorpene,very much like the spanish s80).though i wish india could acquire the viking design which has been dropped sweden,norway and denmark and couple it with the sterling fuel cells.


http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE120050914120653&Page=1&Title=Bangalore&Topic=0

Admiral Prakash said these six submarines would be built under licence at the Mazagoan docks in Mumbai.

“After this series, we will design and build our own later.'' Stating that having submarines at sea increased the combat levels of the blue water navy, he said with the induction of these submarines, the force levels would be adequate to meet any threat.

:coffee

and here is another link form DT

India Taps France and Other Countries in Drive to Modernize its Military
VoA
Thu, 15 Sep 2005, 09:30

NEW DELHI: An order for six French submarines announced early this week is just the latest step in India's drive to modernize its armed forces. The submarines are part of India's plan to flex its military muscles more forcefully.

Related Story:
Missile test will fuel arms race argument debunked

Indian officials say the six French Scorpene submarines will be assembled at a naval dockyard in Bombay. The submarines will replace aging vessels in India's fleet of 14 French and Russian-built subs.

The nearly 2 billion dollar submarine deal was confirmed earlier this week during a visit to Paris by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Rahul Bedi, a correspondent at Jane's Defense Weekly, says over the next few years, India plans to increase its submarine strength substantially.

"It wants to bolster its submarine fleet to between 20 and 30. It is a fairly formidable navy. It has a long reach, it is growing longer sea legs," said Bedi.

The submarine deal is the latest in a series of big-ticket defense purchases by India, which is modernizing its military equipment, most of which was bought from the former Soviet Union.

A report prepared for the United States Congress says that last year, India emerged as the largest buyer among developing nations of conventional arms. The report says India agreed to deals worth 5.7 billion dollars.

Uday Bhaskar, the head of the government-funded Indian Institute of Defense Studies and Analysis, says the recent purchases will help plug the gaps in all three of India's military branches, the air force, navy and army.

"It is a case of being able to redress the situation of obsolescence, where in many major platforms, aircrafts, ships and certain equipment for the army, which could not be acquired due to funding constraints, are now gradually being redressed," said Bhaskar.

Big defense deals struck in the past year include an agreement to buy a Russian aircraft carrier. The Indian air force is also acquiring advanced jet trainers for its fighter pilots. And New Delhi has signed a deal with Israel for the supply of three sophisticated early-warning radar systems.

Rahul Bedi of Jane's Defense Weekly says the purchases are part of nuclear-capable India's plans to flex its military muscles in South Asia.

"India is now embarked on a regional power projection exercise, and for this exercise it needs more sophisticated platforms for its navy and its air force, and these acquisitions are in fact going to continue over many years," said Bedi.

Much of India's defense equipment is still purchased from Russia, but Israel is also emerging as a key supplier, as are the Western European countries. The United States, the largest supplier of arms to developing nations, is also feeding the Indian market.

URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003418.php

All people and Indian Govt were talking about the MRCAs and here we can see the submarie deal Fst can any one tell me the difference between these submaries which will be aquired by the Indian Navy and which PN has "Ogustas"

[aaaditya]

and here is another link form DT

India Taps France and Other Countries in Drive to Modernize its Military
VoA
Thu, 15 Sep 2005, 09:30

NEW DELHI: An order for six French submarines announced early this week is just the latest step in India's drive to modernize its armed forces. The submarines are part of India's plan to flex its military muscles more forcefully.

Related Story:
Missile test will fuel arms race argument debunked

Indian officials say the six French Scorpene submarines will be assembled at a naval dockyard in Bombay. The submarines will replace aging vessels in India's fleet of 14 French and Russian-built subs.

The nearly 2 billion dollar submarine deal was confirmed earlier this week during a visit to Paris by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Rahul Bedi, a correspondent at Jane's Defense Weekly, says over the next few years, India plans to increase its submarine strength substantially.

"It wants to bolster its submarine fleet to between 20 and 30. It is a fairly formidable navy. It has a long reach, it is growing longer sea legs," said Bedi.

The submarine deal is the latest in a series of big-ticket defense purchases by India, which is modernizing its military equipment, most of which was bought from the former Soviet Union.

A report prepared for the United States Congress says that last year, India emerged as the largest buyer among developing nations of conventional arms. The report says India agreed to deals worth 5.7 billion dollars.

Uday Bhaskar, the head of the government-funded Indian Institute of Defense Studies and Analysis, says the recent purchases will help plug the gaps in all three of India's military branches, the air force, navy and army.

"It is a case of being able to redress the situation of obsolescence, where in many major platforms, aircrafts, ships and certain equipment for the army, which could not be acquired due to funding constraints, are now gradually being redressed," said Bhaskar.

Big defense deals struck in the past year include an agreement to buy a Russian aircraft carrier. The Indian air force is also acquiring advanced jet trainers for its fighter pilots. And New Delhi has signed a deal with Israel for the supply of three sophisticated early-warning radar systems.

Rahul Bedi of Jane's Defense Weekly says the purchases are part of nuclear-capable India's plans to flex its military muscles in South Asia.

"India is now embarked on a regional power projection exercise, and for this exercise it needs more sophisticated platforms for its navy and its air force, and these acquisitions are in fact going to continue over many years," said Bedi.

Much of India's defense equipment is still purchased from Russia, but Israel is also emerging as a key supplier, as are the Western European countries. The United States, the largest supplier of arms to developing nations, is also feeding the Indian market.

URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003418.php

All people and Indian Govt were talking about the MRCAs and here we can see the submarie deal Fst can any one tell me the difference between these submaries which will be aquired by the Indian Navy and which PN has "Ogustas"
the design of the scorpene sub (the hull design is known as the albacore design)derives a lot of technology from the latest french nuclear submarine project particularly in terms of the sensors and the quieting technology,the scorpenes are considered to be amongst the quietest subs in the world ,they have the fully integrated subtics combat system,and it is believed that the scorpenes can be equipped with a miniature nuclear reactor thus making it a mini nuke sub(off course it will require a lot of modifications),the submarine also has rescue facilities for the crew(hatches to which dsrv's can attach),thus making it possible for the crew to be saved in the event the submarine is sunk(preventing the loss of life as in the case of kursk),india is plannig to acquire the mystic dsrv's from usa for this purpose.in other aspects it is comparable to the agosta 90b,both the submarines are modular and can be equipped with the air independent propulsion system.the scorpene requires lesser crew due to a higher degree of automation and carries more weapons than the agosta90b(18 vs 16).the scorpene can also be modified to carry and fire surface to air missiles,i dont know if this would be possible with the agosta 90b,basically the agosta 90b is the upgraded version of agosta70 which in itself is based on the daphne class,whereas the scorpene design is completely new.
for more info check out :
www.naval-technology.com (http://www.naval-technology.com)
www.indiadefence.com (http://www.indiadefence.com)
www.dcn.fr (http://www.dcn.fr)
:coffee

[aaaditya]

well seems the indian navy is also interested in acquiring the hawks:

http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep162005/national1652502005915.asp

Indian Navy holds talks with British firm

Of the three Services, the Indian Navy was the first to use the penalty clause in the agreement when the supply of frigates was delayed by Russian sellers.

The Indian Navy is believed to have opened negotiations with British Aerospace (BaE) for 18 to 22 Hawk advanced jet trainers (AJTs) after the Indian Air Force (IAF) refused to “share” with it the 66 Hawks which the former acquired last year for $ 1.65 billion.

The AJTs are due to join the service in a phased manner from 2008.

Official sources said the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited that was building 42 of the AJTs at Bangalore was also part of the navy’s negotiations for the jet trainers.

:coffee

[aaaditya]

well here is an interesting article on the past,present and future of the indian submarine programme.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=78278 :coffee

[aaaditya]

well here is some more news on the nuke subs for india:

Sep. 21, 2005

Pacific Fleet Moving South


// To participate in Russian-Indian naval maneuvers


Yesterday the battle group of ships from Pacific Ocean Fleet left from Vladivostok to Indian Ocean, where they would participate in joint Russian-Indian naval maneuvers INDRA-2005. The maneuvers also have a goal to demonstrate to the top brass of Indian army and navy the nuclear sub Project 09710 “Samara” – two subs of this class are being built right now in Komsomolsk-on- Amur for New Delhi.


Yesterday, the battle group of ships left Vladivostok and is on the way to the Indian Ocean. Among the ships of the group there are: missile cruiser Varyag, large antisubmarine ships Admiral Tributs and Admiral Panteleev, tanker Pechenga, and the rescue tug Kalar. The group is under command of Vice Admiral Sergey Avramenko, Deputy Commander of Pacific Ocean Fleet (POF). In the ocean the ships would be joined by nuclear sub Project 09710 “Samara” with the number K-295. The sub is coming from Kamchatka. On October 14 the POF battle group will enter port Vishahanatman. The port located in Bengalese Bay and considered to be the main naval base of India’s Eastern Fleet.

From Oct. 17 until Oct. 19, the Russian sailors will participate in joint Russian-Indian naval maneuvers INDRA-2005. According to Adm. Avramenko, during the maneuvers Varyag, Admiral Tributs and Admiral Panteleev will fire from the all weapons systems: antisubmarine missiles "Volcano", missile- torpedoes "Socket", anti-aircraft missiles "Fort", "Wasp-M" and the "Dagger." Also, according to Kommersant (http://www.kommersant.ru/) information, the nuclear sub of “Samara” class will demonstrate its capability. (The vessels of this project are made with extremely low-noise powerplant and their hull made out of low-magnetic steel.) The interest of Indian navy to this sub is understandable: two subs of this class are being built right now in Komsomolsk-on- Amur for New Delhi. One of the ships named “Nerpa” (Seal) is already on the water and its nuclear reactor has been started. Kommersant learned that the sub could be transferred to the Indian navy as early as the end of 2006. Another sub is 70 percent ready.

After the completion of INDRA-2005, the Russian battle group (excluding sub K-295) will visit Indonesian capital Jakarta, then Singapore, Sattahip(Thailand) and Hai Phong (Vietnam). The ships will return to the Vladivostok on Dec.14.

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=530&id=610715

[vedang]

i heard of "shivalik" class of stealth frigates going to be inducted in IN this year. any news guys???:confused:

[JOE]

i heard of "shivalik" class of stealth frigates going to be inducted in IN this year. any news guys???:confused:

hi i am new here.i am a indian. i am from a family of defence officers. personally have practical expriences. so most of my entries will be from personal exprience.

I have joined this site as moderators look good who try not to turn every topic into Indo/ pak war.

New purchases for indian navy.

shivalik class stealth, they will be joined this year or early next year.

submarines : deal for scorpiones are already signed. 6 will be purchased/TOT and manufactured in india.. there is no plan at present to build more than 6 at present.

there is talk about starting another line for amur class submarines but it is in cold storage. no progress made there.

akula class II N submaries. it is too secret. we can only guess. but u can draw conclusion that russians have made a new submariner training centre and Indians are already there. also the work has started on two half finished submaries that were lying in the yards. so chances are this deal is through too.we may expect these akulas in india by 2007.

ATV. there is problem with the N - engine. so russian are helping with it. the submarine design is based on Graney Severodvinsk class . it will be aviable by 2010.

but main problem is that general publec will know about these N sub , 2 to 3 years after they are inducted.

bramhos: already the supplies have started few of the ships are already have them.

I hope my entries are acceptable as I am new in posting. :)

[aaaditya]

hi i am new here.i am a indian. i am from a family of defence officers. personally have practical expriences. so most of my entries will be from personal exprience.

I have joined this site as moderators look good who try not to turn every topic into Indo/ pak war.

New purchases for indian navy.

shivalik class stealth, they will be joined this year or early next year.

submarines : deal for scorpiones are already signed. 6 will be purchased/TOT and manufactured in india.. there is no plan at present to build more than 6 at present.

there is talk about starting another line for amur class submarines but it is in cold storage. no progress made there.

akula class II N submaries. it is too secret. we can only guess. but u can draw conclusion that russians have made a new submariner training centre and Indians are already there. also the work has started on two half finished submaries that were lying in the yards. so chances are this deal is through too.we may expect these akulas in india by 2007.

ATV. there is problem with the N - engine. so russian are helping with it. the submarine design is based on Graney Severodvinsk class . it will be aviable by 2010.

but main problem is that general publec will know about these N sub , 2 to 3 years after they are inducted.

bramhos: already the supplies have started few of the ships are already have them.

I hope my entries are acceptable as I am new in posting. :)
well there are plans to develop an indigenous submarine based on the scorpene design(check this weeks's frontline magazine they got an excellent article on the scorpene deal).
india is unhappy with the amurs and si i dont think they will be acquired.
the problem with atv was not with the nuclear reactor but with the reactor containment vessel,which houses the reactor(problems solved with russian assistance,and the reactor prototype has been tested at kalpakkam),the atv is expeted to be launched at the earliest in 2007.
check janes defence magazine dated 1/1999 their cover story is about the various nike submarine projects around the world(there article on the indian atv nuke submarine,chinese type93,brazilian snac2 etc).:D

[JOE]

well there are plans to develop an indigenous submarine based on the scorpene design(check this weeks's frontline magazine they got an excellent article on the scorpene deal).
india is unhappy with the amurs and si i dont think they will be acquired.
the problem with atv was not with the nuclear reactor but with the reactor containment vessel,which houses the reactor(problems solved with russian assistance,and the reactor prototype has been tested at kalpakkam),the atv is expeted to be launched at the earliest in 2007.
check janes defence magazine dated 1/1999 their cover story is about the various nike submarine projects around the world(there article on the indian atv nuke submarine,chinese type93,brazilian snac2 etc).:D

Yes there is plan to develop a new submarine based on scorpene design. but it is just a thought. let first submarine come to india and let india start manufacturing it then you may think of indegenous design. let us wait for atleast 15 years then we can talk about it.

amur I told you it is in cold storage.

for ATV. the Problem was with the design. the indians were not able to build the reactor which can fit into the submarine. that was the main problem. they got the help from the russians for tha. also the problem you have mentioned. so basically it is becoming a russian design made by the Indians.

[aaaditya]

Yes there is plan to develop a new submarine based on scorpene design. but it is just a thought. let first submarine come to india and let india start manufacturing it then you may think of indegenous design. let us wait for atleast 15 years then we can talk about it.

amur I told you it is in cold storage.

for ATV. the Problem was with the design. the indians were not able to build the reactor which can fit into the submarine. that was the main problem. they got the help from the russians for tha. also the problem you have mentioned. so basically it is becoming a russian design made by the Indians.
according to the jane's magazine it was a problem with the design of the reactor containment design and not the reactor which was tested at kalpakkam last year.the design of the submarine itself was not a problem because the design was provided by russia and was reported to be based on the charlie1 class of submarine which india had operated in the year 1988,later reports from janes claim that the atv was an exact copy of the latest russian attack submarine the project885 severodvinsk.an image as well as the info about that submarine has been provided in the same article.:D

[RealIndian]

Does anyone has new image of P-17 Shavalik class? If you have please post.:confused:

[aaaditya]

well here is another example of american marketing tactics.

Business lurks in war game
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENThttp://www.telegraphindia.com/1050924/images/24ship3.jpg Aircraft carrier USS Nimitz New Delhi, Sept. 23: The Indian Navy begins a nine-day exercise with the US Navy on Sunday in what is the biggest and most advanced war game it has held with a foreign force off the west coast.

The US Navy’s aircraft carrier, the USS Nimitz, and the Indian Navy’s carrier, the INS Viraat, will lead battle groups for the manoeuvres.

This is the first time that aircraft carriers from the two navies will participate in the Malabar series of exercises, seven editions of which have been held so far.

The US will showcase aircraft and equipment that it has offered for sale or is negotiating to sell to India. The Nimitz will have on board F-A 18 Superhornet fighter aircraft and the E2C Hawkeye early warning plane. The US Navy will also fly sorties on the P3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft from Goa.

Rear Admiral D.K. Joshi, the assistant chief of naval staff (information warfare and operations), said here today that the exercise, which continues till October 4, was not long enough to accommodate a major war game scenario but it would have elements of warfare.

These include air to air warfare, air to sub-sea warfare, rescuing a ship that has been boarded by pirates, simulated air strikes, shepherding, anti-submarine warfare, mid-sea replenishment in a multi-threat environment, counter-terrorism and air defence.

“In terms of assets committed, Malabar ’05 is the most advanced exercise that we have had with any navy,” Rear Admiral Joshi said. He identified the focus areas of the exercise as aviation inter-operability and VBSS (visit, board, search and seizure).

Indian and US authorities are in talks on the Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI) — which India has been invited to join — under which US and allied forces authorise themselves to take maritime security and anti-piracy measures in the sea lanes of communication.


though i cant understand the purpose of displaying it to the navy.:D

[aaaditya]

well seems hdw still has a chance to sell submarines to india.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/09/21/afx2235666.html:D

[aaaditya]

well here is another interesting news article on the scorpene,akula and the atv.

http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?category=National&slug=Scorpene+deal+to+strengthen+Indian+Navy&id=79207

[aaaditya]

seems the scorpene deal is yet to be signed:

India, France to sign Scorpene sub deal on Oct.6



New Delhi, Sep 27.(PTI): A high-level French team is arriving here next week to ink the USD 3 billion (RS 13,000 Crore) deal for India's acquisition of six Scorpene submarines and also to hold parleys on the offer of transfer of nuclear technology for peaceful uses.

The delegation, which would include officials and members of the DCN-International, the manufacturers of Scorpene, will hold talks with the officials of the Defence Ministry and Navy to finalise the final delivery schedule of the subs and to further strengthen strategic ties between the two countries.

The Scorpene deal would be signed on October six by Defence Secretary Shekhar Dutt and officials of the French company in the presence of top officials from both the sides, according to highly placed Defence Ministry sources.

Under the announcement made jointly by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and French President Jacques Chirac in Paris on September 12, the six Scorpene Submarines are to be manufactured at Mazagoan Docks in Mumbai under full technology transfer.

Though the delivery schedule has not been made public, according to highly placed sources the first of the submarines would roll out by 2009 and the remaining five by 2015. http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200509271811.htm?headline=India,~France~to~sign ~Scorpene~sub~deal~on~Oct.6

DCN Press Release


New success for Scorpene


Following sales to Chile and Malaysia, India has announced that it will acquire six DCN-designed Scorpene submarines. This new success further confirms the product’s international appeal.
Paris, 12 September 2005


An international industrial cooperation project

Indian Prime Minister Manoham Singh and chairman of India's Cabinet Committee on Security, today confirmed to French President Jacques Chirac his country's decision to acquire six Franco-Spanish Scorpene submarines. All six boats will be built entirely in India by Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Limited.

DCN is the industrial prime contractor for Scorpene submarines in partnership with Spanish naval shipbuilder Navantia, the two companies sharing industrial responsibility for this ambitious project. DCN will be in charge of the technology transfer and delivery of all services and equipment. Armaris and DCN/Thales subsidiary UDS International will supply the combat systems.

The project is expected to take some 15 years to complete.

Commenting on the sale, DCN Chairman and CEO Jean-Marie Poimbœuf said: "This sale is a mark of recognition of DCN's know-how in international industrial partnerships to deliver strategic systems and technology transfers. It also makes Scorpene the new benchmark for submarine fleets the world over."

Scorpene: Proven DCN know-how in conventional submarines

This DCN-designed product line represents the state of the art in conventional submarine design and construction. It benefits from the latest technologies developed for French Navy classes, particularly as regards acoustic discretion and combat system performance. The modular Scorpene design can be readily tailored to each client navy's specific needs. Built-in interoperability also ensures compatibility with a wide range of customer-specified combat and weapon systems.

This brings the number of Scorpene submarines sold on the international market to ten. The first-of-type O'Higgins was handed over to the Chilean Navy on 9 September 2005 at a ceremony attended by Chilean Defence Minister Jaime Ravinet.

www.dcn.fr (http://www.dcn.fr)

THALES press release

Success for Thales in India on Scorpene submarine programme

Neuilly-sur-Seine, France, 12 Sep 2005

The Indian government has chosen Armaris, a joint venture between Thales and DCN, as prime contractor for the technology transfer programme under which six conventionally propelled Scorpène submarines will be built in India.

For Thales, the contract is worth nearly € 600 million.

As well as assuming prime contracting responsibilities through Armaris and providing assistance to the Indian shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Limited, Thales will supply key subsystems for the submarines' six SUBTICS® integrated combat systems, including underwater sensors, communications and optronics, and electronic warfare equipment.

The Thales Group welcomes the Indian government's decision, which signals a strengthening of the long-standing cooperation that has existed between India and France.

Denis Ranque, Thales Chairman and CEO added, "I am particularly proud of this success in India, brought about by the Armaris branch. This is the second submarine programme, after Malaysia, to which Thales contributes both technological and commercial expertise, thanks to the excellence of its international network."

Thales in India
Thales has been active in India for more than 50 years. The Group enjoys a strong cooperative relationship with the Indian armed forces and has provided equipment, systems and support for numerous platforms in service with the country's land, air and naval forces. Thales also has a strong presence in civil aviation (particularly as an equipment supplier for the Airbus airliners in service with Air India and Indian Airlines), and in the air navigation sector. Thales electronic fare collection systems have also been selected for the Delhi and Calcutta metros. As part of its multidomestic strategy, Thales recently expanded its local presence in India, setting up a new company in New Delhi in 2003. The new company, Thales International India, offers a range of IT and support services for local civil and military programmes.

Press contacts

ARMARIS press release (PDF file)

http://www.armarisgroup.com/uk/pdf/scorpindia_uk.pdf (http://www.armarisgroup.com/uk/pdf/scorpindia_uk.pdf)
:D

[XEROX]

A point of interest, can the Scorpions launch PJ-10 missiles, or would they need retrofitting for that??

[gf0012-aust]

A point of interest, can the Scorpions launch PJ-10 missiles, or would they need retrofitting for that??

I don't think it can. there are fitment and hardware issues. Francois might have a better idea.

on top of that, any redesign of fitments for Brahmos and Scorpene would delay the build even longer. Thats why Exocet is being fitted.

[XEROX]

Is it because the PJ-10 missile requires a vertical launching system platform, I guess like you said neither the Scorpion nor Kilo can accommodate it without substantial modifications

[tatra]

Is it because the PJ-10 missile requires a vertical launching system platform, I guess like you said neither the Scorpion nor Kilo can accommodate it without substantial modifications


It has to do with missile diameter and torpedo tube diameter. Club familiy can fit into 533mm tubes for regular heavyweight torpedos. PJ 10 can't and would probably require 650mm torpedo tubes, like the ones made by the Russians. These are not standard on most submarines.

[Druz]

Some information about Amur / Lada for Indian Navvy
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=529&id=614878

[Druz]

France sold India 36 Exocet with 6 Scorpen.
Bat it said, that new weapon system can be integrate in sub after constraction 2 Sub.
Why such many Exocet is?

[gf0012-aust]

Bat it said, that new weapon system can be integrate in sub after constraction 2 Sub.

Unless you want to completely redesign the nose of that sub and upset the entire enineering and acoustic balance - you won't be putting Brahmos inside a Scorpene. can't be done unless you have major surgery. And I seriously doubt that the IndGov let alone the IndNav will allow that.

Why such many Exocet is? 6 reloads each. I'd say that its an interim order only and that 6 is not enough (but perfectly adequate for peacetime stocks)

[kingkobra]

Link:http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/vikrant.htm

INS Vikrant (Building)
In April 2005 India began building its first indigenously designed aircraft carrier, the INS Virkant, in the Cochin naval shipyards. The vessel is being built to the final Air Defense Ship (ADS) design set forth by the India Navy's Directorate of Naval Design (DND) for the last several years. The keel laying is scheduled late in the year. The ship is expected to enter service in 2012 when it will join the INS Vikramaditya, which will have replaced the INS Viraat in 2010.

A second carrier of this class is expected to be built and delivered in 2018 to join the new Virkant and the Vikramaditya. At that time, the Indian Navy will have three large, modern carriers.

INS Vikrant first indigenously designed aircraft carrier

SPECIFICATIONS

Length: 830 ft
Width: 190 ft
Beam: 116 ft
Displacement: 40,000 tons
Propulsion: 4 LM 2500 gas turbines,
2 shafts
Speed: 28 knots
Crew: 1,600
Airwing: 30 Fixed, rotary
Armament:
- 2 X 16 VLS SAM
- 4 X 76mm guns
Elevators: 2
Ships in class: 1

[aaaditya]

Link:http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/vikrant.htm

INS Vikrant (Building)
In April 2005 India began building its first indigenously designed aircraft carrier, the INS Virkant, in the Cochin naval shipyards. The vessel is being built to the final Air Defense Ship (ADS) design set forth by the India Navy's Directorate of Naval Design (DND) for the last several years. The keel laying is scheduled late in the year. The ship is expected to enter service in 2012 when it will join the INS Vikramaditya, which will have replaced the INS Viraat in 2010.

A second carrier of this class is expected to be built and delivered in 2018 to join the new Virkant and the Vikramaditya. At that time, the Indian Navy will have three large, modern carriers.

INS Vikrant first indigenously designed aircraft carrier

SPECIFICATIONS

Length: 830 ft
Width: 190 ft
Beam: 116 ft
Displacement: 40,000 tons
Propulsion: 4 LM 2500 gas turbines,
2 shafts
Speed: 28 knots
Crew: 1,600
Airwing: 30 Fixed, rotary
Armament:
- 2 X 16 VLS SAM
- 4 X 76mm guns
Elevators: 2
Ships in class: 1
the indian carriers are based in design on the italian cavour class and italy is acting as the consultant.
by the way does anyone know what sam's will it carry(aster or russian ones)and also what is the carriers range?

[XEROX]

Im persuming their is going to be 3 carriers of the ADS class be built, the first being 40K tonnes, any chance the later 2 being of much large displacments i.e. 70k-100k tonnes.

[aaaditya]

Im persuming their is going to be 3 carriers of the ADS class be built, the first being 40K tonnes, any chance the later 2 being of much large displacments i.e. 70k-100k tonnes.
yes three carriers of ads class will be built.so india will have 4 carriers(including gorshkov).
though the csl has capacity to build ships of 100000 tons displacement ,i dont think the ads will be of 100000 tons displacement since it will require redesign and can result in further delays,also indian naval bases as of now do not have the capacity to berth such heavy displacement vessels.

[gf0012-aust]

also indian naval bases as of now do not have the capacity to berth such heavy displacement vessels.

well, someone needs to get their civil construction act together - otherwise you'll have 3 carriers doing double duty as sea bases.

[XEROX]

also indian naval bases as of now do not have the capacity to berth such heavy displacement vessels

I would imagine the naval base Karwar, which is the largest in asia would be able to accomodate large ships

[aaaditya]

I would imagine the naval base Karwar, which is the largest in asia would be able to accomodate large ships


offcourse karwar will be able to and also the new naval base at rambilli,but what about the others,i dont think mumbai or vishakapatinam will be able to berth such heavy carriers(they cant even be updated since they have become too congested.)
also a 75000+aircraft carriers will be very expensive due to increased logistics requirement ,something which indian navy can ill afford at the moment,also there is no real necessity of these,i think india should concentrate more on potent submarine force(nuclear and conventional),and more capable destroyers and frigates.

[PLA2025]

I wonder why noone is against India to deploy 4 aircraft carriers even about the 70.000 to 100.000 tons? When it was about China to develop and deploy its first carriers, people are whining and complaining that China would not need carriers. How come India wants four and noone has concerns while when China want some in the future everyone is treatling China like a thug. It has to be mentioned that the average livestandard and economy in India is even behind China! So when you would say China wastes money to deploy carriers, what is India doing?
Don't get me wrong, I don't consider India as a rival or threat to China (although some others might think different) and I think that both nations have the right to deploy aircraft carriers if they want and need some. I'm just talking about the unfairness towards Chinese. Equality is needed as a basis to avoid disputes and conflicts.

[dabrownguy]

I wonder why noone is against India to deploy 4 aircraft carriers even about the 70.000 to 100.000 tons? When it was about China to develop and deploy its first carriers, people are whining and complaining that China would not need carriers. How come India wants four and noone has concerns while when China want some in the future everyone is treatling China like a thug.
I can't understand you but i'll try to answer this. Look at the Asian map. Now do you the Indian shoreline? Do you see a invisable oil route through the INDIAN OCEAN around INDIAN ISLANDS going through the very important MALLACA STRAITS in the Pacfic Ocean? No do you see the vast size of the Indian Ocean and its resourses? Also have you noticed the strong British Naval traditions and training in the Indian Navy? From the 60's?
Okay now, do you see Tiawan? How for is it from China? Do you think a Aircraft Carrier will be needed to reach it? And if you look at PLAN's fleet do you any considerable ASW platforms that could excort the Carrier? Let alone anti-seaskimmer missile system besides the HQ-7? The PLAN's Carrier in today's warfare would be moderatly easy picking for anti-ship missiles and submarines. Also considering the LACK of experience with Carriers, which they could get from Russia with training etc...
Lastly PLAN's fleet is built around her threat matrix.
It has to be mentioned that the average livestandard and economy in India is even behind China! So when you would say China wastes money to deploy carriers, what is India doing?
Protecting her trade routes and islands.
Don't get me wrong, I don't consider India as a rival or threat to China (although some others might think different) and I think that both nations have the right to deploy aircraft carriers if they want and need some. I'm just talking about the unfairness towards Chinese. Equality is needed as a basis to avoid disputes and conflicts.
Every nation has the right to deploy Carriers. PLAN at the moment has little reason to deploy a Carrier expecially when they don't have a platform to train sailors on.

[aaaditya]

I wonder why noone is against India to deploy 4 aircraft carriers even about the 70.000 to 100.000 tons? When it was about China to develop and deploy its first carriers, people are whining and complaining that China would not need carriers. How come India wants four and noone has concerns while when China want some in the future everyone is treatling China like a thug. It has to be mentioned that the average livestandard and economy in India is even behind China! So when you would say China wastes money to deploy carriers, what is India doing?
Don't get me wrong, I don't consider India as a rival or threat to China (although some others might think different) and I think that both nations have the right to deploy aircraft carriers if they want and need some. I'm just talking about the unfairness towards Chinese. Equality is needed as a basis to avoid disputes and conflicts.
india already has experience ,basic infrastructure and doctrine in place for the operation of carriers(india has been operating them for the past 20-30 years),also when india tried to acquire its first carriers there were similiar protests and also when india tried to acquire the gorshkov,several sections of the indian media questioned the viability of the deal.
you must also take into consideration india's strategic location at the junction of the indian ocean through with 70% of the global mercantile shipping passes to get to south china sea(and to china),carriers will give india effective reach to monitor these shippings and to ensure their safety(from pirates and in the event of war).

[kingkobra]

This thread is for Indian navy not for china. how can you post about china china Blah blah blah post in chinese navy thread.How come admin (webmaster) allowed you to post this ?

admin: and how many times have we told everyone who is not a mod to not behave like a mod?

Thread frozen temporarily.

[gf0012-aust]

Topic Re-opened after temp freeze.

[dabrownguy]

Can I ask the experts here if its possible that the InN will deploy Harriers on the Vikrymidia? The reason I ask is because launching 1-2 Migs at a time could be pain and having VTOL would be a great advantage.

[kingkobra]

Can I ask the experts here if its possible that the InN will deploy Harriers on the Vikrymidia? The reason I ask is because launching 1-2 Migs at a time could be pain and having VTOL would be a great advantage.

(It is Vikramaditya not Vikrymidia.)

Chandragupta II (380 to 413 AD) tried to be better than his father Samudragupta, and most historians agree, he was certainly successful. Vikramaditya is THE LEGENDARY emperor of India.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/r-vikramaditya.htm

On 20 January 2004, it was announced that India and Russia had signed a $1.6 billion deal finalizing the sale of the Admiral Gorshkov to India. According to the deal, half of the money would spent at the Northern machine-building factory in Severodvinsk, to refurbish the carrier with the other half being spent on MIG 29-K fighter jets and anti-submarine helicopters. When the ship was part of the Soviet fleet, it used vertical take-off aircraft. Now it will use MiG-29K planes, and the deck must be refurbished to accommodate the installation of a landing strip and a catapult. The rest of the money is going to the acquisition of 16 MiG-29K fighter jets, and up to 10 helicopters that can fit onto the ship. Gorshkov is slated to join the Indian navy in 2008 after a refit. The Navy looke at equipping the carrier Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya) with the E- 2C, but decided not to.

The navy agreed to buy the Russian aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov, for a nominal fee. But it requires a $670m refit and will eventually have between 18 to 20 Mig 29 fighters which will cost in excess of $1bn. Gorshkov, which is slated to join the Indian navy in May 2008 after a refit.

The conversion plans for the aircraft carrier see all the armament, including the P-500 Bazalt cruise missile launchers and the four Antey Kinzhal surface-to-air missile launchers fitted on the front of the carrier, removed to make way for a 14.3º bow ski-jump. Two restraining stands will also be fitted, allowing combat aircraft to reach full power before making a ski-jump-assisted short take-off. The ability to launch only one aircraft at a time, might prove to be a hindrance. Under the modernization plan, the 20-ton capacity elevator beside the ship's island superstructure will remain unchanged, but the aft lift will be enlarged and its lift capacity increased to 30 tons. Three arresting gears would be fitted on the aft part of the angled deck. Navigation and carrier-landing aids would be refitted to support fixed-wing STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) operations including the LAK optical-landing system.

The eight boilers are being renewed and converted to take diesel fuel instead of furnace fuel oil and modern oil-water separators as well as sewage treatment plant are being incorporated to meet international standards. She is also being fitted with six new Italian-made Wärtsilä 1.5 MW diesel generators, Global Marine communications system, Sperry Bridgemaster navigation radar, a new telephone exchange, new data link and IFF Mk XI system.

Two restraining stands will also be fitted, allowing combat aircraft to reach full power before making a ski-jump-assisted short take-off.So Vikramaditya can deploy Harriers and some Naval LCA

Admin: Try to make responses relevant to a posters original question. We don't need an information sheet on Vikramaditya - we need more relevant info relating to dabrownbuys original request for info.

[gf0012-aust]

STOBAR carriers are not able to rotate aircraft to the same rate as CATOBAR carriers.

This becomes even more pronounced when tempo goes up and simulataneous traps and launches are needed.

[dabrownguy]

It could but it would be slow because it could take time to clear the flight deck?
But none the less its possible i'd imagine. The Russians did it on their Cruiser correct? how fast was it?