Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[contedicavour]

MBDA makes Aster, it doesn't make the radars, & would happily sell the missile with any radar it can get it integrated with. Aster is already integrated with S1850M, Sampson, Arabel, Empar, Herakles . . . IIRC Empar is made by Selex (Italy/UK), Arabel & Herakles by Thales, S1850M by Thales Nederland & BAe Insyte, Sampson by Insyte. Looks to me as if everyone & his dog in European radar makers already has a finger in the Aster pie. So what's the problem? We're not talking about competitors radars, we're talking about radars made by one of the existing radar suppliers, i.e. Thales - which is, right now, simultaneously selling radars packaged with US missiles. Packaging the same radars with Aster is going to hurt who? Depends on whether it replaces SM-2/ESSM sales or Empar sales, doesn't it?

Well the problem is that MBDA belongs to a consortium of companies including Finmeccanica-Selex and the French Thales. I agree that these companies might make sacrifices to win tenders against SM-2/ESSM, but if you were working for Finmeccanica you'd fight against anything else than EMPAR (by the way, the active array version is almost ready and will be installed on the FREMMs) and if you were working for Thales you'd fight for herakles.

cheers

[swerve]

Well the problem is that MBDA belongs to a consortium of companies including Finmeccanica-Selex and the French Thales. I agree that these companies might make sacrifices to win tenders against SM-2/ESSM, but if you were working for Finmeccanica you'd fight against anything else than EMPAR (by the way, the active array version is almost ready and will be installed on the FREMMs) and if you were working for Thales you'd fight for herakles.

cheers

No, MBDA belongs to EADS (37.5%), BAe (37.5%) & Finmeccanica (25%). Thales isn't one of the shareholders.

BTW, Thales also makes APAR as well as Herakles, so would be quite happy to sell that along with Aster, if someone wanted it (would require some integration work, I presume).

Let's think for a moment about how Finmeccanica would influence the selection of a radar by some hypothetical country which was seeking to buy ships. By fighting within MBDA against the pairing of Aster with a rival radar? If so, it would be bloody stupid, as it would harm MBDA. No point in killing the goose. Better to forget your (minority) shareholding & try to sell your radar directly to the customer. Emphasize its performance, & how ready you are to integrate it with whatever they want. Don't start trying to sabotage any other aspects of their purchase, or they'll think of you as difficult to deal with, obstructive, & might shy away. In their place, at this point I'd worry about any other equipment I want on the ship that Finnmeccanica makes a rival product for, & whether you might start trying to get that changed, thus disrupting the building of my ships.

[contedicavour]

No, MBDA belongs to EADS (37.5%), BAe (37.5%) & Finmeccanica (25%). Thales isn't one of the shareholders.

BTW, Thales also makes APAR as well as Herakles, so would be quite happy to sell that along with Aster, if someone wanted it (would require some integration work, I presume).

Let's think for a moment about how Finmeccanica would influence the selection of a radar by some hypothetical country which was seeking to buy ships. By fighting within MBDA against the pairing of Aster with a rival radar? If so, it would be bloody stupid, as it would harm MBDA. No point in killing the goose. Better to forget your (minority) shareholding & try to sell your radar directly to the customer. Emphasize its performance, & how ready you are to integrate it with whatever they want. Don't start trying to sabotage any other aspects of their purchase, or they'll think of you as difficult to deal with, obstructive, & might shy away. In their place, at this point I'd worry about any other equipment I want on the ship that Finnmeccanica makes a rival product for, & whether you might start trying to get that changed, thus disrupting the building of my ships.

Ehm EADS belongs to the french government (and Lagardere and Daimler) which in turn controls Thales. Thales is a creature of the French government so expect it to push for any material made in France...
Which explains why it was France who refused to build a FREMM with ESSM/SM-2 for instance.
One last thing, the interest in ordering most material from the same company is that it lowers integration fees and overall cost (higher discounts for bulk purchase, etc)

cheers

[swerve]

Ehm EADS belongs to the french government (and Lagardere and Daimler) which in turn controls Thales. Thales is a creature of the French government so expect it to push for any material made in France...
Which explains why it was France who refused to build a FREMM with ESSM/SM-2 for instance.
One last thing, the interest in ordering most material from the same company is that it lowers integration fees and overall cost (higher discounts for bulk purchase, etc)

cheers

You're confusing companies (which can be state-controlled or influenced, but aren't the same thing) with governments. Who owns the rights to the FREMM design? I think you'll find it's the French (majority) & Italian governments. Now imagine a ship designed & built outside France, not by a French company, & MBDA or Thales trying to sell the missiles & sensors for it. Different situation, no? And that's how this all started out.

Thales has no majority shareholding, but the largest shareholders are the French government (27.1%) & Alcatel-Lucent (not Lagardere!) 21.6%. Between them they have just under half. Alcatel-Lucent is a publicly quoted company with very substantial US ownership. The two largest shareholders (with almost 15% between them) are US investment firms.

The French government is restricted to a maximum EADS shareholding of 15%, through agreed bodies only (it may not own shares directly), & has just under that limit. Not quite ownership :) . Most of it is through a 50% stake in a holding company (Lagardere has the other 50%) which owns 29.6%. Daimler controls 22.5% (15% owned, 7.5% owned by its German partners) & the Spanish state 5.5%, & those stakes are in a partnership which controls the company. The partnership has rules which mean that in effect Daimler can't be outvoted by the French government & Lagardere acting together, because it can force them, in that case to buy its shares at a favourable (to Daimler) price. Bloody complicated, but all done to make sure the French don't control EADS. Just strong influence,

BTW, Sarkozy is talking of selling French state shareholdings in EADS, Thales, & other firms.

[contedicavour]

I meant that Lagardere was part owner of eads not thales.
I doubt Sarkozy will ever sell state ownership of the key french defence companies, unless it's one of his closest friends who buys those stakes (again, lagardere, dassault, bouygues, etc). He is centre-right and mildly liberal but when it comes to big companies based in France he is very heavily nationalist.
Anyway I understand your point that for orders outside of France and Italy Thales may have an interest in being very flexible about which components to integrate into its weapons suite, and this with limited government intervention.
The only question I'd have then is why I haven't seen any offers on the market for anything else than the French FREMM (Herakles or previously Arabel) or the Italian one (with active EMPAR). May be it's kept confidential within tender process, still strange...

cheers

[aaaditya]

hey guys,seems that indian navy has narrowed down the contenders for its 8 aircraft maritime patrol aircraft order to boeing p8i mma based on the b737-800 platform and the airbus a319 based platform being offered by eads.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2827661&C=america

Indian Navy officials involved in the eight-plane, $800 million maritime surveillance aircraft program will study Boeing and Airbus aircraft in France, Germany, Spain and the United States, a Navy official said.
The team will evaluate the nascent Boeing P-8A in the United States June 18-29. They will see the A319 at Airbus facilities in France July 7-15; visit EADS’ center in Hamburg, Germany, for lab testing; and watch trials of EADS-built systems, installed aboard a P-3 Orion, in Madrid in late July.
The Navy official said India is evaluating systems under development in other planes: a Boeing 737-800 for airworthiness trials and a C-40 for operations-and-maintenance trials.
The evaluation will go to the Defence Ministry by September, a request for bids will emerge shortly thereafter, and a short list of bidders evaluated for technical parameters. Finally, price negotiations will begin within two years.
The surveillance aircraft must serve for more than 15 years, fly faster than 200 knots on patrol and operate by day or night.
Its sensors must include an identification-friend-or-foe system, electronic support measures system, data links, electro-optic devices, inertial navigation system, GPS receivers, standard avionics, and be able to track up to 80 surface and air targets at a time.
Its armament must include air-to-surface missiles, an internal bomb bay, sonobuoys, torpedoes and depth charges. •

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here,it seems that the indian navy is interested in land and sea based hawkeyes.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.defensenews.com/paris/story.php?id=2840677

With the April 30 rollout of the first Advanced Hawkeye prototype behind them, the Northrop Grumman’s E-2D product team is working on several modifications designed to make the maritime surveillance aircraft more appealing to export customers.
Such enhancements are likely to include a nonfolding wet wing that would raise endurance from 3½ to eight hours, plus a robust air-to-air refueling capability. Northrop Grumman is also considering adopting mission recording and intercom systems that the French navy is installing on its E-2C Hawkeyes.
“The capabilities that come out of the process can be made available to the U.S. Navy, and then to foreign customers,” said Capt. Tom Carroll of the U.S. Naval Air Systems Command’s PMA-231 component. “They get the benefit of that development change, whether it’s in hardware, software or weapons systems.”
Two E-2Ds are in production at St. Augustine, Fla., with first flight of the initial prototype expected later this summer. The first aircraft will be used to evaluate the aircraft’s handling characteristics and re-establish its flight envelope.
The mission system, built around the Lockheed Martin APY-9 search radar, will debut on the second aircraft. Early trials of this equipment, Carroll said, are being performed aboard an NC-130 testbed aircraft.
According to Jerry Spruill of Northrop Grumman, the nonfolding wing option is geared mainly toward operators with shore-based applications. These could include nations with recent interest in acquiring E-2Ds, including the United Arab Emirates and Malaysia. India, Spruill said, is considering both land- and shore-based variants of the Advanced Hawkeye.
The next step, according to Spruill, is approving the E-2D mission system for foreign military sales.
“We expect interest in the Advanced Hawkeye to ratchet up dramatically once these approvals are received,” he said.

[kams]

hey guys,interesting news here,it seems that the indian navy is interested in land and sea based hawkeyes.

. India, Spruill said, is considering both land- and shore-based variants of the Advanced Hawkeye.
.

Huh!!! what is the difference b/w Land and Shore based versions?:unknown

[swerve]

Huh!!! what is the difference b/w Land and Shore based versions?:unknown

Read the rest of Aadityas post. It's in there.

[kams]

Read the rest of Aadityas post. It's in there.

Swerve,

The report does mention non-foldable, wet wings and air-air refueling capability (both of which differentiates the carrier based version from Shore based version). However I could not figure out how 'Shore' based version is different from 'Land' based version. Could you please amplify.

Thanks.

[swerve]

.... However I could not figure out how 'Shore' based version is different from 'Land' based version. Could you please amplify.

Thanks.

Shore-based is navy speak for land-based. E.g. my cousin is "shore-based", & he works well inland, at Northwood. The fixed wet wing version of E-3D could be called shore-based or land-based. Makes no difference. Either is a valid name for it.

[kams]

Shore-based is navy speak for land-based. E.g. my cousin is "shore-based", & he works well inland, at Northwood. The fixed wet wing version of E-3D could be called shore-based or land-based. Makes no difference. Either is a valid name for it.

Exactly Swerve, now if we look at what Mr. Spruill said,

India, Spruill said, is considering both land- and shore-based variants of the Advanced Hawkeye.

'Both Land and Shore based', that left me wondering. (Unless the journalist screwed up, wouldn't be the first time, but I doubt it.)

Is there one more varian for Air-force?


Another interesting news, there was a report in Indian media that IN is not interested in Amur as second line of conventional sub.Apparently Brahmos corporation wanted to trial sub launched Brahmos on an Amur, but Navy said no. So they are going to modify an IN Kilo.

Now that throws up some interesting scenario for future second line of Submarines:) . The decision will have to be made soon.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting news article,it seems that indian wants to deploy its navy abroad to protect its oil interests ,i wonder what would be the implication of this move,i believe this move would be carried out on a reciprocal basis.

here is the link and the article:

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=168952

KOLKATA, JUL 2 : The Union government is thinking of sending the Indian Navy to places where the country has oil interests and especially in areas where ONGC Videsh Ltd (OVL) has invested in oil and gas exploration.
Pranab Mukherjee, Union external affairs minister, said that maritime diplomacy has become an essential component of India's foreign policy and its maritime interests have to grow far beyond its primary area.



Indian Navy to keep eye on oil interests abroad : The Union government is thinking of sending the Indian Navy to places where the country has oil interests and especially in areas where ONGC Videsh Ltd (OVL) has invested in oil and gas exploration.
Pranab Mukherjee, Union external affairs minister, said that maritime diplomacy has become an essential component of India's foreign policy and its maritime interests have to grow far beyond its primary area.
"We have to look at the investments ONGC Videsh is making in energy rich areas such as Sakhalin, Sudan, Nigeria and Venezuela and extend our maritime interests through maritime diplomacy," Mukherjee said.
OVL has 24 oil and gas properties in 14 countries at present.
Mukherjee said as the Indian Navy and Coast Guard function as a "major stabilising force in the movement of energy resources across the Indian ocean for all the energy intensive economies", so the naval forces of other countries are expected to co-operate with the Indian Navy for India's oil interest.
"Almost 1000 million tonne of oil from West Asia passes along the international shipping lanes of the Indian Ocean, close to our shore, annually, and the greater portion of this is destined for oil intensive economies of the US, China and Japan," Mukherjee said.
He said that around 45% of the world's oil demand is attributable to the rising energy needs of China and 70% of its oil import comes from West Asia and Africa through the shipping lanes of Indian Ocean.
"Therefore Indian Navy and Coast Guard are functioning not just for India's interest but for the world at large," Mukherjee said.
He told FE that the international law makes it "perfectly legal for ships to (come) close to the coast of another nation to as little as 12 nautical miles, which is the maximum breadth of any nation's territorial waters".
So, he said, Indian naval ships cannot be deprived of the rights of `innocent' passage within the 12 nautical mile belt of other nations. India is already engaged with the US, Russia, France UK and Japan to address strong maritime challenges and has recently concluded bilateral arrangements with Thailand and Indonesia for co-ordinated patrols by the three navies at the north of Malacca Straits in the Bay of Bengal. Suresh Mehta, chief of naval staff, said the Indian Navy is conducting peacetime exercise with the US, China, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand and Philippines. It plans to hold international naval symposium in Delhi early next year with 32 countries participating in it.

[kams]

Link (http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/13/stories/2007071354331500.htm)

NEW DELHI: India will hold its biggest naval exercise with the U.S., Japan, Australia and Singapore in the Bay of Bengal in September this year, senior security officials here said on Wednesday.

The decision comes amid China’s concerns over last month’s meeting between India, the U.S., Japan and Australia and assurances by India and Australia that security and defence issues did not form part of the meeting’s agenda.

The concern over “encirclement of China’ was strong enough for Beijing to issue a demarche to all four nations, demanding the purpose behind the meeting. A demarche is a formal diplomatic communication from a country seeking information from another.

Sources said the naval exercise would see the participation of three aircraft carriers, two from the U.S. and one from India, besides several warships. This could be a rare occasion of a large flotilla undertaking manoeuvres in international waters close to India.

The spadework for the exercise was done earlier this year, well before the June meeting. The location of has been chosen to maintain distance from the arc of the Pacific Ocean skirting the borders of Russia and China where such moves could arouse Beijing’s sensitivities.

Interesting development.

[aaaditya]

Link (http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/13/stories/2007071354331500.htm)



Interesting development.

i wish the indo-australian defence relationship reaches the level of maturity to enable india to be offered the collins class of submarines by australia,hey kams what do you think are the chances for such a defence technologies cooperation between india and australia?

[kams]

i wish the indo-australian defence relationship reaches the level of maturity to enable india to be offered the collins class of submarines by australia,hey kams what do you think are the chances for such a defence technologies cooperation between india and australia?

As of now, chances of such large scale defence co-operation is low.
Australia does not own all the technology related to Collins. GF is a better person to answer this question than me.

[gf0012-aust]

Link (http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/13/stories/2007071354331500.htm)



Interesting development.

IIRC, I suggested this was going to happen some 9 months ago (if not on here, then on SP or T5C)

[gf0012-aust]

As of now, chances of such large scale defence co-operation is low.
Australia does not own all the technology related to Collins. GF is a better person to answer this question than me.

The signature management technology is australian. the rest of the electronics would require clearance by the offshore IP owners.

Indian 3rd parties have had discussions with a few australian companies, but the issue of complete ToT has been the consistent hurdle.

[aaaditya]

The signature management technology is australian. the rest of the electronics would require clearance by the offshore IP owners.

Indian 3rd parties have had discussions with a few australian companies, but the issue of complete ToT has been the consistent hurdle.

are these discussions related to the collins class of submarines or only to the signature management technology?

[gf0012-aust]

are these discussions related to the collins class of submarines or only to the signature management technology?

technology only

[aaaditya]

technology only

hey gf,does australia have any concrete plans for berthing its vessels in indian territorial waters (that is the use of indian naval bases and logistic support ) for continuous operation of its naval assets in the arabian sea,and also to allow indian navy to use australian berthing facilities?

[aaaditya]

hey gf,does australia have any concrete plans for berthing its vessels in indian territorial waters (that is the use of indian naval bases and logistic support ) for continuous operation of its naval assets in the arabian sea,and also to allow indian navy to use australian berthing facilities?

hey gf,i meant something on these lines:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_US_likely_to_ink_military_logistics_support_ agreement/articleshow/2203609.cms

NEW DELHI: India and the US are close to signing an agreement under which their armed forces will provide each other logistics support on a reciprocal basis even as New Delhi may bid to buy another American amphibious warship.

A logistics support agreement is in the final stages, said top Pentagon officials now on a visit to the country. They also said that Washington had offered the giant landing ship, USS Nashwill, to the Indian Navy.

"We have put the offer to the Indian Navy," Lt Gen Jeffrey B Kohler, director of the Defence Security Cooperation Agency in the US defence department told reporters. The amphibious warship is of the same class as the 17,000-tonne USS Trenton that was bought by the Indian Navy.

Referring to the logistics support agreement, Kohler said the accord had been put up to the Cabinet Committee on Security. The Americans usually describe such a pact as an "acquisition and cross-services" agreement.

It was listed as a logistics support agreement at the suggestion of India, he said.

"The agreement will ease joint operations by the armed forces of the two countries during exercises and in coming to the aid of people struck by natural calamities," Kohler said, making it clear that the accord did not in any way imply the stockpiling of weapons on each other's soil.

"The armed forces of the two countries are having frequent interactions and face immense difficulties by way of fuel supplies and other logistics. With such an agreement in place, it would ease things for both militaries," he said.

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[nero]

i wish the indo-australian defence relationship reaches the level of maturity to enable india to be offered the collins class of submarines by australia,hey kams what do you think are the chances for such a defence technologies cooperation between india and australia?
.

after the mohd HANEEF incident , the chances of indo-australian co-operation is pretty slim.

john howard has said that india is nothing more than a trading partner

hence, u wil se operation only in trade, which will further widen india's already huge trade-deficit.

also u must remember that australia has scaled down the presence of australian navy participating in the wargames to be held of the coast of bay-of-bengal.

the rapid islamisation of india could be a major reason why australia would like to keep a safe distance from india.

afterall an islamic india is of nobody's best interest.

.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,great news here ,italy is manufacturing oceanographic research vessels for the indian navy (most probably as a replacement to the sagar dhwani).

here check out this link and article:



Oceanographic Ship for India Launched at
(Source: Fincantieri; issued July 9, 2007)

Italy --- Today at Fincantieri’s Muggiano shipyard (La Spezia) there was the launch of the “Sagar Nidhi” (“Pearl of the Oceans”), an oceanographic vessel ordered for the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT), Madras. Present at the ceremony were the Indian Minister for Science and Technology and Earth Sciences, Kapil Sibal, and the Undersecretary Right Honourable Lorenzo Forcieri. Fincantieri was represented by the company’s Executive Vice President Vessel Business Unit, Giuseppe Sassi.

The 5,000-ton ship, whose aft section was built at Riva Trigoso shipyard (Genova), is 104 metres long and 18 metres wide; delivery is scheduled for next autumn. The vessel will constitute a cutting edge reference point for the study of the marine environment as it will be possible to work in all theatres of operation, including tropical and polar environments. Equipped with the latest technology for scientific studies, the ship will be used for oceanographic and hydrographic research, including water, ice and core sampling of the sea bed. From on board it will also be possible to manage ROVs (Remotely Operated Vehicles) and AUVs (Autonomous Underwater Vehicles) at a distance.

The ship is built to the highest national and international standards regarding the environment and safety on board, in order to be awarded the maximum class provided under the regulations of the naval registers of India – IRS - and Norway - Det Norske Veritas.

To this regard one important issue was the containment of vibrations and noise levels and here Fincantieri has been able to implement innovative solutions by drawing on the experience gained in the construction of submarines. Moreover, during the construction process due attention was given to reliability requirements plant maintenance criteria.

This ship, the first that Fincantieri has built for the Indian market, confirms that the company has good relations with the nation, following on from the two contracts signed in 2004 with Cochin shipyard relating to the design of the engine of the new aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy and to responsibility for its integration.

In order to follow its activities in India and further strengthen its commercial relations, Finacantieri has opened a permanent office in New Delhi.

[aaaditya]

.

after the mohd HANEEF incident , the chances of indo-australian co-operation is pretty slim.

john howard has said that india is nothing more than a trading partner

hence, u wil se operation only in trade, which will further widen india's already huge trade-deficit.

also u must remember that australia has scaled down the presence of australian navy participating in the wargames to be held of the coast of bay-of-bengal.

the rapid islamisation of india could be a major reason why australia would like to keep a safe distance from india.

afterall an islamic india is of nobody's best interest.

.

there is no danger of islamisation of india ,india and australia have signed an agreement for the sharing of millitary intelligence and information ,also the frequency of indian navies port calls to australia and vice versa is on the increase,australi is also to participate in the indian naval excercises the malabar.

[gf0012-aust]

.

after the mohd HANEEF incident , the chances of indo-australian co-operation is pretty slim.

john howard has said that india is nothing more than a trading partner

.


sorry, thats absolute rubbish.

the indian-australian negotiations have been developing over the last 12 months - I've mentioned this long ago well before it became public about the US, Japan, Australia, India link up.

even when the Fiji crisis was on, India insisted on maintaining australian diplomatic links - and I know this forst hand as it was one of my relatives. He was posted to New Delhi for over 5 years.

the issue of tech transfer on systems technology is always ab issue for both countries - australian companies dealing with weapons tech are cleared to facilitate sales as long as the potential buyer is not on the DFAT "Hostiles List" (which is not public domain info - but India is not on that list)

The issue then for tech transfer is between the private company and the buyer. Considering that we don't share all our tech with even the US ( *metalstorm core tech and the sig mgt core tech being prime examples), then I can't see the private entities shifting their position.

Its got nothing to do with Govt decisions at that stage - its an issue of commercial protection and has nothing to do with country relationships. The Govt cannot direct an private company to share technology if it does not want to. We do however export modified versions of that tech to our allies. There are 2 other countries that have acquired the export version.

India does not want the export version, they want the RAN version. That won't happen (due to all the reasons outlined above)

India has purchased different australian tech already over the last 5 years, but as its not public domain knowledge, then I guess they aren't keen on advertising what they have bought.

Haneef will not have any impact on Govt to Govt relationships - and the Indian Govt is well aware of why Haneef is still in custody.

[Aussie Digger]

.

after the mohd HANEEF incident , the chances of indo-australian co-operation is pretty slim.

john howard has said that india is nothing more than a trading partner

hence, u wil se operation only in trade, which will further widen india's already huge trade-deficit.

also u must remember that australia has scaled down the presence of australian navy participating in the wargames to be held of the coast of bay-of-bengal.

the rapid islamisation of india could be a major reason why australia would like to keep a safe distance from india.

afterall an islamic india is of nobody's best interest.

.


Haneef was granted bail TODAY, by a Magistrate infamous for her leniency so that issue has been put to bed.

As to slim chances of Australia - India co-operation, tell that to the crew of HMAS Adelaide who are going to India next month for a series of exercises...

This was posted on Australia's DoD website today...


Dr Nelson:
Thank you very much all of you for coming along here today. As you know, I am Brendan Nelson. I am Australia’s Minister for Defence and I am visiting India specifically to discuss a number of issues with Minister Antony, and also Minister Mukherjee and others, as far as Australia’s defence and security relationship is concerned. The purpose of the visit is – Australia considers its relationship with India to be extremely important, in a general sense and also specifically increasingly in defence and security.

Last year, our Prime Minister signed with the Indian Prime Minister a memorandum of understanding on defence and security and the purpose of my visit is to see that we give increased momentum to that agreement. And today, we have signed an information sharing arrangement, which enable India and Australia within a legal framework to exchange key information in a range of areas such as maritime surveillance, counter- terrorism, counter-insurgency, peacekeeping and our assessments of fragile states and other things.

We are also increasing our level of senior engagement at a military level with India. Australia will, for the first time, be participating in a naval exercise in the Bay of Bengal in September this year with Japan, Singapore, United States and India. We also have had our first senior air force-to-air force meeting. I have also advised my Indian counterparts that we will be increasing the rate of exchanges between our key military personnel and I also want to ensure that Australia and India come increasingly closer together in cooperating in maritime security, particularly in the Indian Ocean and we welcome also India’s increasing look toward East Asia and interest in security in the Asia-Pacific region.

I would also like to make some other comments about another matter before I take any questions from you. I am a physician; a medical practitioner by training. I am also a former President of the Australian Medical Association. At the moment, there are issues which involve the detention of an Indian doctor in Australia and inquiries which have been undertaken in relation to matters involving terrorist attacks in Glasgow and London. Apart from the doctor who has been detained, a number of other Indian doctors have been interviewed in relation to those incidents. I want to say as an senior Australian Government minister, as a former President of the Australian Medical Association, and an Australian doctor that Australia’s healthcare system is of very high standard that it is today, in no small way, because of the hard work, determination, professionalism and sacrifices of Indian doctors who have come to our country over the last century. Particularly after the end of World War II, Indian doctors made a key contribution to improving our standards of medical practice, in driving changes in leadership in our learned colleges and providing health care services – particularly in regional and rural parts of Australia. There are currently more than 156,000 Indians who live in Australia and Indians have made, and continue to make, a key contribution to the modern Australia, which is outward looking, competitive and compassionate.

On matters that the Australian Federal Police are investigating in cooperation with British, Indian and other authorities, it needs to be emphasised that our concerns relate to terrorists’ behaviour. It is not the political or cultural or religious clothes that it may wear, and we assume innocence until proven otherwise in all of these matters. I am also advised that the Australian Federal Police are working cooperatively and will work cooperatively with the Indian authorities and respectfully through the Indian processes. And again it needs to be emphasised that there should be and is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise in this and all similar cases.

I am very happy to take questions.

Question:

You talked about the naval exercises in the Bay of Bengal in September. Is it a quadrilateral exercise? Is Australia also participating …?

Dr Nelson:

Yes, Australia for the first time will participate in the naval exercise. We will be sending one of our FFGs – one of our frigates – HMAS Adelaide and what we want to do as we go forward into the future is to develop our exercising in a number of areas which are appropriate to our joint relationship and our mutual interest, and naval exercise and naval engagement is arguably the most important. India has an enormous amount of experience, not only as having a significant and highly capable, extremely well-trained navy, but India also has a great deal of experience in dealing with counter- insurgency, counter- terrorism and peace-keeping and of course our two nations have served side by side in a number of theatres over the last century as well.

[Aussie Digger]

Whoops,

Mr Haneef has now had his visa revoked, so now he's back in custody... :rolleyes:

Now it's getting farcical...

[harryriedl]

bad news Trenton been delayed and suffered cost overruns
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2007071559951200.htm&date=2007/07/15/&prd=th&
Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI: The problem of cost and time overruns has also affected an American ship, INS Jalashwa (formerly USS Trenton), being sold to India.

The cost of the ship has increased by over 10 per cent and its delivery schedule extended because there was “more work than anticipated,” said senior U.S. military officers here on Saturday. They were here to “understand” Indian requirements for military hardware over the next five years.

The same problem is believed to have affected Russian aircraft Admiral Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya) which would take two extra years to complete.

The cost of the ship had increased from $ 48.3 million to $ 53.5 million partly because “we did not know each other’s standards” and some work that was not in the original contract document.
Amphibious ship

Nevertheless, the giant 30-year-old amphibious ship has been refurbished to ensure several years of operation, said Rear Admiral Jeffrey Wiering, in-charge of international relationships of the US Navy,who is due to take over from Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler as the chief of the Pentagon’s Defence Security Cooperation Agency.
USS Nashwill

The two U.S. military officers also revealed that Washington wanted to sell USS Nashwill, another ship of the same class and design to India, the offer for which would be put to the US Congress for approval next year provided a positive response is forthcoming from the Indian Navy.

The officers did not foresee time and cost overruns in the transfer of this ship due to the better understanding of each other’s processes.

[swerve]

bad news Trenton been delayed and suffered cost overruns
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2007071559951200.htm&date=2007/07/15/&prd=th&
Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI: ...

The two U.S. military officers also revealed that Washington wanted to sell USS Nashwill, another ship of the same class and design to India, ....

Has anyone else been baffled by the Indian press references to USS "Nashwill"? It wasn't until I saw a reference to USS Nashville that I realised what ship was meant. :D

I know, I could have looked up a list of USN LPDs & worked it out, but I couldn't be arsed.

[kams]

Has anyone else been baffled by the Indian press references to USS "Nashwill"? It wasn't until I saw a reference to USS Nashville that I realised what ship was meant. :D

I know, I could have looked up a list of USN LPDs & worked it out, but I couldn't be arsed.

:D :D

What's your opinion about usefullness of a second Austin class LPD to Indian Navy? Any estimates of yearly operating costs? Is IN better of spending more upfront on newer ones from Europe?

Thanks

[kams]

.

after the mohd HANEEF incident , the chances of indo-australian co-operation is pretty slim.

john howard has said that india is nothing more than a trading partner

hence, u wil se operation only in trade, which will further widen india's already huge trade-deficit.

also u must remember that australia has scaled down the presence of australian navy participating in the wargames to be held of the coast of bay-of-bengal.

the rapid islamisation of india could be a major reason why australia would like to keep a safe distance from india.

afterall an islamic india is of nobody's best interest.

.

Hey Troll, could you post any evidence to support your claim that AUstralia has 'Scaled Down' Australian Navy participation in the Multi-nation Naval wargames?

[Galrahn]

What's your opinion about usefullness of a second Austin class LPD to Indian Navy? Any estimates of yearly operating costs? Is IN better of spending more upfront on newer ones from Europe?

I think it is smart. India doesn't have any amphibious ships of the kind right now so they are making what I would call a smart investment to determine the capabilities of the platform, and how they fit into the Indian Navy. I think it is smart of them to gain experience on the cheap rather than trying to break out into the capability under an expensive contract.

In the end, for around $150 million US, India will end up with 2 ships that will give them about 10-15 solid years, if not more, of experience to determine how to move forward in amphibious capabilities, including the specific functionality that best fits the requirements of the Indian Navy. The Austin class LPDs, with a large flight deck and well deck, gives India an excellent CONOP development platform to weigh the various aspects of amphibious warfare cheaper than any other options out there.

Think about it, if you are a growing Navy and could get into amphibious warfare for only $10 million US a year for 15 years to develop procedures, logistics, and CONOP wouldn't you jump at the investment?

[harryriedl]

I think it is smart. India doesn't have any amphibious ships of the kind right now so they are making what I would call a smart investment to determine the capabilities of the platform, and how they fit into the Indian Navy. I think it is smart of them to gain experience on the cheap rather than trying to break out into the capability under an expensive contract.

In the end, for around $150 million US, India will end up with 2 ships that will give them about 10-15 solid years, if not more, of experience to determine how to move forward in amphibious capabilities, including the specific functionality that best fits the requirements of the Indian Navy. The Austin class LPDs, with a large flight deck and well deck, gives India an excellent CONOP development platform to weigh the various aspects of amphibious warfare cheaper than any other options out there.

Think about it, if you are a growing Navy and could get into amphibious warfare for only $10 million US a year for 15 years to develop procedures, logistics, and CONOP wouldn't you jump at the investment?

have you seen any recent pictures of Nashville it looks much tireder than Trenton.
it seems perfect way to get LPDs on the cheap as the USN it decommising two classes of LPD as the San Antonia's are coming on line which gives a perfect opportunities to get LPD.

is turkey interested in any of Austins as they tend to buy US and they have an interest in perchesing a LPD.

[AegisFC]

Does anyone know if India is going to buy some LCAC's to go with their recent purchase?

[kams]

Does anyone know if India is going to buy some LCAC's to go with their recent purchase?

I haven't heard anything about LCAC.

All I know is IN is buying 6 Sea King helicopters along with Trenton.

Galharn,

Thanks for the info. Considering that INS Jalshva will be stationed on India's eatern seaboard, IN may well use USS Nashville on Arabian sea.

[Galrahn]

have you seen any recent pictures of Nashville it looks much tireder than Trenton.
it seems perfect way to get LPDs on the cheap as the USN it decommising two classes of LPD as the San Antonia's are coming on line which gives a perfect opportunities to get LPD.

Ya the Nashville needs a paint job, but overall it isn't in that bad of shape. She can go 15 more years if given a refit for it.

Uhm, but the San Antonio's are no where close to coming online, they got some serious issues, and we are unlikely to see a LPD-17 class deployment until 2009 at least at this point.

is turkey interested in any of Austins as they tend to buy US and they have an interest in perchesing a LPD.

Turkey appears interested in the Dokdo class (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2007/07/dokdo-class-strong-contender-for-turkey.html).

[harryriedl]

Ya the Nashville needs a paint job, but overall it isn't in that bad of shape. She can go 15 more years if given a refit for it.

Uhm, but the San Antonio's are no where close to coming online, they got some serious issues, and we are unlikely to see a LPD-17 class deployment until 2009 at least at this point.



Turkey appears interested in the Dokdo class (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2007/07/dokdo-class-strong-contender-for-turkey.html).

ah thanks
I know about that very sorry tale of the LPD-17 huge delays huge cost overruns and one unsafe broken ship and delayed class with huge problems.

so Nashville is mechanically sound just in need of a refit

[aaaditya]

india is reportedly interested in the french mistral class with the indian shipyard garden reach shipbuilders and engineers limited carrying out a feasibility study on this project.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,gret news here,indian navy has activated its first listening post in madagaskar.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/205416.html


New Delhi, July 17: India has activated its first listening post on foreign soil that will keep an eye on ship movements in the Indian Ocean. A key monitoring station in northern Madagascar, complete with radars and surveillance gear to intercept maritime communication, was quietly made operational earlier this month as part of Indian Navy’s strategy to protect the country’s sea lanes of commerce.
The monitoring station, under construction since last year when India took on a lease from Antananarivo, will link up with similar naval facilities in Kochi and Mumbai to gather intelligence on foreign navies operating in the region. “A naval asset with limited anchoring facilities has been activated. It will facilitate possible manoeuvres by the navy in the region,” a ministry official said.
While the station will also monitor piracy and terrorist activities, its primary aim is to counter the growing Chinese influence in the Indian Ocean Region. The station is India’s first in southern Indian Ocean that is gaining importance due to increasing oil traffic across the Cape of Good Hope and the Mozambique Channel route preferred by super tankers.
The US already has a permanent military base with aerial assets and monitoring facilities in Diego Garcia, 1,400 nautical miles north-east of the Madagascar facility.
India is looking at developing another monitoring facility at an atoll it has leased from Mauritius in the near future. While the ministry remains silent, sources say some forward movement has recently been made on the project.
“With berthing rights in Oman and monitoring stations in Madagascar, Mauritius, Kochi and Mumbai, the navy will effectively box in the region to protect sea lanes right from Mozambique and the Cape of Good Hope to the Gulf of Oman,” an official said. The navy has already made its presence felt along the African coast with regular warships deployments to monitor piracy and terrorist movements. India also inked an agreement with Mozambique last year to mount periodical maritime patrolling off its vast coast. In 2003, the Indian navy provided seaward protection for the African Union summit at Mozambique.

[nero]

india is reportedly interested in the french mistral class with the indian shipyard garden reach shipbuilders and engineers limited carrying out a feasibility study on this project.
.

another waste of public money guys !!the mistral class is bulky with very little self-protection systems on board

i think the indian navy should go for the FREMM-class, which is a far more potent weapon platform than the mistral

here is some facts on the fragile & vulnerable mistral.



The Mistral is the first vessel of a new BPC force projection and command type developed by DCNS for the French Navy.

The Mistral combines payload capacity and versatility. It can carry up to 16 heavy helicopters and one-third of a mechanized regiment, plus two LCAC hovercraft or forr LCM landing craft.

A high-performance communications suite makes the Mistral ideal as a command vessel.
The 750-sq.m hospital features two operating theatres and offers 69 beds. If additional hospital/medevac space is required, the hangar can be converted into a modular field hospital.

The innovative propulsion system features two electric azimuth pods, making the Mistral the French Navy’s first all-electric warship.


.

[nero]

Aster 15 isn't long range.

.

good point swerve !!


.

[kams]

.

another waste of public money guys !!the mistral class is bulky with very little self-protection systems on board

i think the indian navy should go for the FREMM-class, which is a far more potent weapon platform than the mistral

here is some facts on the fragile & vulnerable mistral.



The Mistral is the first vessel of a new BPC force projection and command type developed by DCNS for the French Navy.

The Mistral combines payload capacity and versatility. It can carry up to 16 heavy helicopters and one-third of a mechanized regiment, plus two LCAC hovercraft or forr LCM landing craft.

A high-performance communications suite makes the Mistral ideal as a command vessel.
The 750-sq.m hospital features two operating theatres and offers 69 beds. If additional hospital/medevac space is required, the hangar can be converted into a modular field hospital.

The innovative propulsion system features two electric azimuth pods, making the Mistral the French Navy’s first all-electric warship.


.

What?:confused: Please think before posting!!!. It's like saying why buy C-130's, instead buy F-16s. :onfloorl:

[nero]

What?:confused: Please think before posting!!!. It's like saying why buy C-130's, instead buy F-16s. :onfloorl:

.

what i meant was that india should concentrate on buying advanced frigates & not LHDs or BPCs like the mistral.

my point was that the money would be well spent on frigates rather than anything else

by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese


.

[kams]

.

what i meant was that india should concentrate on buying advanced frigates & not LHDs or BPCs like the mistral.

my point was that the money would be well spent on frigates rather than anything else

by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese


.

Oh, IN is expanding it's Combat fleat, including Frigates (3 more Talwar on order, 3 P-17s under construction), Destroyers (3 more P-15A on order, RFI sent for 7 more to European/Russian shipyards estimated cost of US$ 6 billion), 4 P-28 corvettes under construction and 8 more planned!!. Total of 33 surface combatants are under construction in India itself.

However it's the Aircraft carriers and LPD's which project power. That's where Austin class, Mistrall class come in.

[swerve]

.
...
by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese
.


.
another waste of public money guys !!the mistral class is bulky with very little self-protection systems on board

i think the indian navy should go for the FREMM-class, which is a far more potent weapon platform than the mistral

By his words shall ye know him. :D

BTW, I'd like to know the general opinion of the FREMMs usefulness for amphibious assaults. ;)

[Galrahn]

The Mistral class is the largest amphibious ship class outside the US Navy.

It currently represents more power projection that any ship is all but maybe 3 Navies worldwide.

It is one of the most modern amphibious ships in the world.

Given this, it is hard to be critical of the ships shortcomings in specific areas not related to its primary role.

[swerve]

The Mistral class is the largest amphibious ship class outside the US Navy.

[nit-picking mode ON]
Almost, but not quite, unless you count HMS Ocean as a helicopter carrier rather than an amphibious ship. She's marginally bigger - 4 metres longer, about 500 tons heavier full load.

The Mistrals are the largest non-US dock landing ships in service, but a larger ship (Juan Carlos I) is under construction, & two more on order for Australia, so that won't be true much longer.
[/nit-picking mode OFF]


It currently represents more power projection that any ship is all but maybe 3 Navies worldwide.

It is one of the most modern amphibious ships in the world.

Given this, it is hard to be critical of the ships shortcomings in specific areas not related to its primary role.

Can't argue with any of that, since I agree with all of it.

[aaaditya]

.

what i meant was that india should concentrate on buying advanced frigates & not LHDs or BPCs like the mistral.

my point was that the money would be well spent on frigates rather than anything else

by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese


.

dont worry india is to float a tender for the purchasal of 7-10 5600 ton frigates and currently the dcn fremm and the south korean kdx2 are the favourites to win this contract.

[Musashi_kenshin]

dont worry india is to float a tender for the purchasal of 7-10 5600 ton frigates and currently the dcn fremm and the south korean kdx2 are the favourites to win this contract

When is the tender going to be formally offered, and when do you think the contract would be awarded?

I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

Of course it would depend what systems the ships would be fitted out with. I hope India gets the full package, not having to fit indigenous systems or something.

[swerve]

...I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

....

FREMM only has Aster-15 in the current configurations, but Italy (& perhaps France, but I'm not sure about that) have been looking at a version with Aster-30.

[harryriedl]

FREMM only has Aster-15 in the current configurations, but Italy (& perhaps France, but I'm not sure about that) have been looking at a version with Aster-30.

i thought the APAR FREMM had the A50 VLS and could fire ASTER 30

[Musashi_kenshin]

FREMM only has Aster-15 in the current configurations, but Italy (& perhaps France, but I'm not sure about that) have been looking at a version with Aster-30.

A FREMM with a mix of Aster-15 and 30 would be good for the Indian Navy - I think they should go for the Korean option (if affordable) if the European option only has Aster-15 mounted.

[kams]

When is the tender going to be formally offered, and when do you think the contract would be awarded?

I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

Of course it would depend what systems the ships would be fitted out with. I hope India gets the full package, not having to fit indigenous systems or something.


Request for Information (RFI) was issued last year. It may be good 3-4 years before the order is issued.

I am not convinced that India will select either Aster 30 or SM-2 (if offered) for these frigates, irrespective of the platform selected. India has invested in co-developing Barak II (70 km range) with Israel and recently approved another development agreement with Israel for developing a more longer range of Barak (120-150km) for Air force. This agreement itself is worth $2.5 billion. Given the amount of investment India has done in Barak, chances of Aster 30 or anyother equivalent missile system making it to IN armoury is slim st beat. IMHO .

Now what IN is looking for in these new class of frigates?

1. Missiles - Brahmos (?) and/or longer range cruise missile (domestic?)
2. Area defence - Barak II
3. Stealth - Signature management, Radar, acoustic and IR signature reduction. -
4. Sensors - Radar: Mix of Indian, Israeli systems?, Sonar - Indian? and/or foreign.
5. Fabrication technology to accelerate/modernize domestic capability?


Just thinking aloud. Welcome your thoughts/comments.

[aaaditya]

When is the tender going to be formally offered, and when do you think the contract would be awarded?

I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

Of course it would depend what systems the ships would be fitted out with. I hope India gets the full package, not having to fit indigenous systems or something.

the tender is to come out most probably at the end of the year or early next year,request for information has already been sent,i dont think india will go for the standard series of missiles for the kdx2 frigates ,but may go in for the indo-israeli missiles.

[Musashi_kenshin]

may go in for the indo-israeli missiles.

Yes, I suppose that would make most sense if the new projects turn out alright.

[contedicavour]

A FREMM with a mix of Aster-15 and 30 would be good for the Indian Navy - I think they should go for the Korean option (if affordable) if the European option only has Aster-15 mounted.

All it takes to use Aster30s from the FREMMs is the Sylver A50 launcher which is about a metre higher/deeper than the Sylver A43 for Aster15.
The issue is mostly where to place a long range 3D air search radar to optimize the usefulness of Aster30s, since EMPAR can be enough but can ony identify incoming fighterbombers at max 250km.
An active planar array version is under development though (in time for the all but the very first FREMMs around 2010-12) and I don't know if range is better.

cheers

[P.A.F]

Scorpene project yet to kick off
27 Jul 2007, 0217 hrs IST
DELHI: As if the huge delay in getting ‘Admiral Gorshkov’ aircraft carrier from Russia was not enough, the Navy now has to contend with slippages in the mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL).

Sources say the production process to construct the French-origin submarines — slated for delivery, one per year, between 2012 and 2017 — is yet to kick off in full gear, almost two years after the deal was clinched.

Any big delay in the project will hit the Navy hard since its projections show it will be left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines (10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two Foxtrot) by 2012, with more ‘‘retirements’’ to follow after that.

In contrast, both Pakistan and China are modernising their submarine fleets at a rapid clip. Pakistan has already inducted three new French Agosta-90B submarines, while China already has 69 submarines, with one-third of them being nuclear ones.

The Scorpene project, of course, has been dogged by some controversy, with allegations of kickbacks having swirled around the October 2005 contracts signed with French companies — Rs 6,135 crore with M/s Armaris for transfer of technology and construction design, and Rs 1,062 crore with M/s MBDA for sea-skimming Exocet missiles.

One of the main reasons for the present slippages is that the French government is not according ‘‘enough priority’’ in granting export clearances for the equipment being sourced from France.

Incidentally, the French government is demanding much more money for the upkeep of 52 Mirage-2000s in the IAF combat fleet, as reported by TOI earlier.

‘‘It takes six weeks to get export clearance for every item coming from France for the Scorpene project. The matter has been raised with the French government but the situation is yet to improve,’’ said a source.

‘‘Some French vendors are also not responding to the demands quickly enough. There are already indications that the delivery of the first submarine will not be possible in December 2012,’’ he added.

Moreover, French firm DCN (Armaris is a joint venture between DCN and Thales) is having problems in handing over the required manufacturing data since it’s not used to getting its submarines built by foreign yards. ‘‘Consequently, purchase order specifications are not arriving on time,’’ he said.

Under the Rs 18,798-crore project, apart from the French contracts, a Rs 5,888-crore contract was also signed with MDL for the indigenous construction of the submarines. As for the rest, Rs 3,553 crore will go as taxes and Rs 2,160 crore towards other items.

________________________________________Looks like things aren't going quite to plan????? :shudder

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Scorpene_project_yet_to_kick_off/articleshow/2237414.cms

[nero]

.

this is certainly great news for the pakistani navy

if the scorpene project gets delayed, then pakistani agosta-90Bs will rule the arabian sea.

also with the U-214 in contention for the PN, it;'s a huge morale booster for the pakistani navy personnel.

Mod edit:

I'm sure you can manage to discuss these matters without bringing religion into it, can't you?

Regards

AD.

[kams]

Production of next-gen submarine begins (http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070016529)

The production of the first of the six Scorpene Submarines has started in the Mazgon Dock in Mumbai.

These Submarines, brought from France in a $4 billion deal, are desperately needed by the Indian Navy.

''We are making these submarines. It is very tough, the standards are high and complex. It will take us about six years to make the first one,'' said Vice Adm Krishnan, CMD, Mazgon Dock.

The quality of the hull has to be high. The steel hull has to withstand enormous pressure under the water.

A team of French technicians from DCN is also on the job, which scrutinises every weld and process.

However, the actual work is done by men like Kiran Purohit, who as a young man, was among those who manufactured India's first submarine, the German HDW, in the late eighties.

But for the past 15 years there were just no Submarines to make.

''It is tough work but it is very prestigious and we are slowly regaining our touch. The last HDW sub we made was in 1994. Then we made boats and missiles,'' said Kiran Purohit, Master Welder.

After the HDW contract was embroiled in a controversy, the manufacturing line was shut for ten long years.

The Navy was scared that the skill and experience would be lost. So the Scorpene contact has come in the nick of time.

''There is a naval design team at work and hopefully sometime in the future we will hopefully make our own submarine,'' said Vice Adm S K K Krishnan (Retd), CMD, Mazgon Dock.

The Scorpenes are vital for the Indian Navy, which will get six in the next ten years. But the real reason why the naval establishment is happy is the fact that the skill and know-how gained will help realise their dream - a Submarine designed and made in India.


ANd here is the video of the same,

Video scorpene (http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videos.aspx?id=14604)

Mod edit:

I'm sure YOU can discuss without disparaging anyone else's beliefs.

Regards

AD.

[kams]

Russia has officially notified India that Gorshkov will not be delivered till 2011.

India is unlikely to take delivery of the refitted Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov until 2011, three years after the due delivery date.

Russian shipbuilder Sevmash admitted on 1 August, that India was unlikely to take delivery of the refitted aircraft carrier, adding that director general Vladimir Pastukhov has been fired over the handling of the refit contract.

"A realistic date for the ship to undergo sea trials and be transferred to the Indian navy is 2011," Sevmash says. The former Russian navy carrier was due to replace India's only serving carrier, INS Viraat.

Link (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/08/01/215841/aircraft-carrier-delay-grounds-indian-mig-fighters.html)

Hope MoD learns the lesson from this Farcical episode and increase funding for Indigenous Aircraft carrier program.

[radiosilence]

This shouldn't be a surprise since it was reported sometime in May(which was denied by india's MoD at the time) that they were going to be delays . Another issue has been the cost overrun of over 100 million. This whole episode might affect the indo/russian relationship on future projects.

[Scorpius]

so what Indian Navy is still and will be the powerful naval force in the South Asia region.

[Galrahn]

This shouldn't be a surprise since it was reported sometime in May(which was denied by india's MoD at the time) that they were going to be delays . Another issue has been the cost overrun of over 100 million. This whole episode might affect the indo/russian relationship on future projects.

Is there a current count of ships Russia is building for India? 1 CV, 3 Talwar frigates, and ???

[radiosilence]

Is there a current count of ships Russia is building for India? 1 CV, 3 Talwar frigates, and ???

I am not aware of any other ship Russia is building other than the ones you mention. IIRC, the first Talwar class frigate will be inducted in 2011.

[kams]

Is there a current count of ships Russia is building for India? 1 CV, 3 Talwar frigates, and ???

Can't think of any more, atleast not in public domain. Construction of project 1135.6 frigates has started at Pribaltiisky shipyards Yantar in Kaliningrad.

India issued RFI for 7 advanced frigates/destroyers last year to european and russian ship yards.

Apparently Vladimir Pastukhov, Director of Sevmash shipyard is to be replaced by Nikolai Kalistratov, who was heading Zvyozdochka ship-repair plant.

As to whether this incident will affect Indo-Russian relationship adversely, I don't think so. However India will for sure look to diversify her future acquisitions.

Reports also indicate that joint Indo-Russian project of MTA has been shelved due to lack of funding from Russian side. Now HAL is looking at other partners such as Gulfstream, Alenia Aeronautica and Embraer.

[Galrahn]

kams,

I was reading through the Russian papers yesterday and it is pretty clear to me that Russian shipyards is being upgraded by Indian money.

Did you notice all new deals go to a new shipyard? Not an accident, it is designed that way so that shipyard can use the profits for upgrades. In the end, it costs India more than it would have had Russia built the purchases in the same yard.

[kams]

kams,

I was reading through the Russian papers yesterday and it is pretty clear to me that Russian shipyards is being upgraded by Indian money.

Did you notice all new deals go to a new shipyard? Not an accident, it is designed that way so that shipyard can use the profits for upgrades. In the end, it costs India more than it would have had Russia built the purchases in the same yard.


Galragn,

Very true. Few eye brows were raised when Yantar won the contract to build follow on 3 Talwar class instead of Baltisky Zavod who built the first three.

It is the Chinese and Indian contracts which helped to keep aflaot many of the Russian Arms plants/Design bureau running. To be fair, both India and Chinese did get some good products at bargain prices. Just look at the amount of customization done in most of the products India bought from Russia, where electronics from Israel, France, Denmark etc have been fittted on to Russian platforms.

[sashikanth]

When will the scorpions be into service in india and how many of them??

[kams]

When will the scorpions be into service in india and how many of them??


Groan....:mad: :mad:

No 'Scorpions' will ever join IN, nor am I aware of any such submarines ever built or offered to India.

Now if you mean Scorpenes, a simple Google query or a search of this very own forum will answer your question.

[contedicavour]

Since the announcement of the Gorshkov delivery around 2011 and since the IAC is planned for delivery around 2012 earliest...
> how long can the former Hermes still sail with an operational complement of Harriers (by the way, have these been updated with Israeli BVR missiles or not ? I've read so many times of delays that I've lost track)
> how are the Indian navy MIG29K pilots going to train ? On the Russian Kuztnetsov ? The MIG29Ks are starting to arrive now...

Separately, if the Scorpenes programme runs late, does it have any impact on the very secretive SSN programme ?

cheers

[kams]

Since the announcement of the Gorshkov delivery around 2011 and since the IAC is planned for delivery around 2012 earliest...
> how long can the former Hermes still sail with an operational complement of Harriers (by the way, have these been updated with Israeli BVR missiles or not ? I've read so many times of delays that I've lost track)
> how are the Indian navy MIG29K pilots going to train ? On the Russian Kuztnetsov ? The MIG29Ks are starting to arrive now...

Separately, if the Scorpenes programme runs late, does it have any impact on the very secretive SSN programme ?

cheers

Hmmm Hermes will sail beyond 2012. Harriers have been upgraded with Derby/Python and Radar.

The Navy is expected to exchange views with Vice-Admiral Bashat on the Israeli equipment being inducted, including the air-to-air Derby missiles on its Sea Harrier fighters.

Link (http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/07/stories/2007080771781100.htm)

Scorpene and ATV are independent projects. In any case it's too early to say that Scorpene project is delayed. First Scorpene is scheduled to join IN in 2012 and hull fabrication of the first started on May 24, 2007.

[kams]

IAI has put Barak-8 naval missile system on it's website. It appears to be a completely new missile, with Active seaker, Two way data, multiple simulataneous engagement capability, coupled to MF-STAR AESA radar. This is first of the Air-defence missile under joint development by DRDO and IAI. Another version called Barak NG (or Barak MR-SAM) with almost double the range of Barak 8 (150 km) will be developed for IAF.

Barak 8 (http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=36713&FolderID=34408&lang=en)

Naval Barak-8 is an advanced, long-range missile defense and air defense system.

Main Features:

Long Range
Active Radar Seeker Missile
Vertical Launch
Multiple Simultaneous Engagements

Barak8 meets and exceeds performance of other similar defense systems, while maintaining unique advantages:

A flexible dual pulse motor system provides high maneuver capability at target interception range throughout Barak-8's wide envelope.
Low weight and small size (about half of similar systems!) – for small impact on carrying ship.
Low signatures (carry, launch & flight) – for high ship survivability.
Safe ship carry & launch – with a small missile and proven vertical launcher concept.
Robust multi-missile coexistence and multi-target capability (supported by seeker, DL & WCS) – enables operation in highly saturated operational scenarios.
High performance warhead - robust kill mechanism

[nero]

.

by when is the barak-NG expected to be inducted ??

Admin: Text deleted. This part of your reply was unnecessary. Read the rules again about posting etiquette.

You're skating awfully close to getting another infraction and hence banning.

[kams]

An artists impression of Barak NG (Picture courtesey - DU and IAI)

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting link and article,it seems that india and israel are planning to jointly develop an unmanned combat helicopter for the indian navy.

here check out this link and article:


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2953232&C=asiapac

The Indian Navy is exploring collaboration between local and Israeli defense companies to develop unmanned combat helicopters, according to Defence Ministry sources here.
Adm. Sureesh Mehta, chief of the Indian Navy, and Vice Adm. David Ben Bashat discussed the possible joint development and other defense programs Aug. 7 during Bashat’s visit here, the first official visit to India by an Israel Navy chief.
The Indian Navy has projected a requirement for 30 to 50 unmanned combat helicopters.
Indian-Israeli defense ties have been on the rise since 1999 and are generally shrouded in secrecy. Israel is working on a number of high-tech programs for the Indian military, including the co-production of nuclear-capable cruise missiles, air defense systems and anti-ballistic missile systems. The country is the largest supplier of UAVs for the Indian Defence Forces.
India also is keen to lease an advanced dedicated military satellite from Israel, Navy sources here said. However, no details on the matter are available, and it is not known whether the matter was discussed during the Israel Navy chief’s visit.
The Indian Navy has the Israeli Barak air defense system and is also developing an extended-range Barak along with India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation.

[contedicavour]

It is very interesting that for AAW missiles India has definitively abandoned Russian products and moved to joint Israeli-Indian production.
This is different from SSM/cruise where Brahmos is similar to the Russian Yakhont/Onyx, without forgetting Russian aircrafts and helos for the Navy.
Should we expect retrofits of Barak NG on Delhi/improved Delhi DDGs ?

cheers

[kams]

It is very interesting that for AAW missiles India has definitively abandoned Russian products and moved to joint Israeli-Indian production.
This is different from SSM/cruise where Brahmos is similar to the Russian Yakhont/Onyx, without forgetting Russian aircrafts and helos for the Navy.
Should we expect retrofits of Barak NG on Delhi/improved Delhi DDGs ?

cheers

Well, if you see trend, the emphasis is on mooving from procuring off the shelf products to joint development and production. Some reasons behind this, one, it will be sanction proof, second - cost, third to give a boost to domestic defence establishment.

I don't know feasability of retrofitting Barak 8 on exisiting ships. Depends on compatibility of existing VLS with new missile and MF-STAR will have to be installed, which inturn entails complete change of Combat system. But we can expect to see them on P15A (Kolkatta class) and the new AAW frigates for which RFP was floated last year.

[Scorpius]

what forces have you got surrounding the South Talpatti Island?Coast Guard or Navy?

[contedicavour]

Well, if you see trend, the emphasis is on mooving from procuring off the shelf products to joint development and production. Some reasons behind this, one, it will be sanction proof, second - cost, third to give a boost to domestic defence establishment.

I don't know feasability of retrofitting Barak 8 on exisiting ships. Depends on compatibility of existing VLS with new missile and MF-STAR will have to be installed, which inturn entails complete change of Combat system. But we can expect to see them on P15A (Kolkatta class) and the new AAW frigates for which RFP was floated last year.

Thks ! While I'm clear on the Kolkatta/improved Delhi DDGs I'm a bit confused on the AAW FFGs you mention. Do you refer to the P17 / evolved design of the Russian Krivak-III ?
With newer AAW reaching the fleet it might be a good time to start deleting the old Kashin with their SA-N-1 (or update the ships taking the obsolete SAM out).

cheers

[kams]

Thks ! While I'm clear on the Kolkatta/improved Delhi DDGs I'm a bit confused on the AAW FFGs you mention. Do you refer to the P17 / evolved design of the Russian Krivak-III ?
With newer AAW reaching the fleet it might be a good time to start deleting the old Kashin with their SA-N-1 (or update the ships taking the obsolete SAM out).

cheers
No, not P-17 or additional Krivaks. Indian Navy floated a RFP for 7 frigates/Destroyers (the line b/w them is not so clear these days) to European and Russian shipyards. 1 to be built in foreign shipyard and 6 in Indian shipyard, each costing about $700 million.

I am not sure about P-17s. In a recent News video on Scorpene construction, we saw a P-17 under construction, superstructure looked different than one to support a MF-STAR.

[contedicavour]

No, not P-17 or additional Krivaks. Indian Navy floated a RFP for 7 frigates/Destroyers (the line b/w them is not so clear these days) to European and Russian shipyards. 1 to be built in foreign shipyard and 6 in Indian shipyard, each costing about $700 million.

I am not sure about P-17s. In a recent News video on Scorpene construction, we saw a P-17 under construction, superstructure looked different than one to support a MF-STAR.

Thks, very interesting.
May be the new class is the replacement for the Kashins. Since the Indian Navy plans to have eventually 3 carriers, it needs 6-9 AAW FFG/DDG. That means 3 Delhi (though the SA-N-7 without VLS is rather poor in both range - 30km - and targeting capability - 6 max), the 3 much better Kolkatas under construction, and logically another class of ships with the NG Barak.

cheers

[Galrahn]

No, not P-17 or additional Krivaks. Indian Navy floated a RFP for 7 frigates/Destroyers (the line b/w them is not so clear these days) to European and Russian shipyards. 1 to be built in foreign shipyard and 6 in Indian shipyard, each costing about $700 million.

Yep,

This is one reason why there is so much confusion over the Project 22350 FFG. Russia is producing a 4500 ton FFG, but has proposed a 7500 ton design similar to the 22350 with phased array for the Indian AAW program.

Many have these two designs confused, and treat them both as the Project 22350, thus why some sources say the Project 22350 is 4500 ton while others say 7500-8000 tons.

[contedicavour]

Yep,

This is one reason why there is so much confusion over the Project 22350 FFG. Russia is producing a 4500 ton FFG, but has proposed a 7500 ton design similar to the 22350 with phased array for the Indian AAW program.

Many have these two designs confused, and treat them both as the Project 22350, thus why some sources say the Project 22350 is 4500 ton while others say 7500-8000 tons.

If the main AAW weapon is the Indian-Israeli Barak NG and the radar is MF-Star, and if most ships are to be built in Indian shipyards, then the role of the bid's winner would be limited to design of the platform and support with engine and weapons systems integration ? Hmm not the sexiest contract I fear.
Unless the Indian admirals are ready to buy SA-N-6 or Aster-30 for these ships while building in parallel the Kolkata with Barak NG ?

cheers

[kams]

If the main AAW weapon is the Indian-Israeli Barak NG and the radar is MF-Star, and if most ships are to be built in Indian shipyards, then the role of the bid's winner would be limited to design of the platform and support with engine and weapons systems integration ? Hmm not the sexiest contract I fear.
Unless the Indian admirals are ready to buy SA-N-6 or Aster-30 for these ships while building in parallel the Kolkata with Barak NG ?

cheers

As per the news reports (not that I trust those reports completely), Stealth is main requirement for new frigates. Thats the reason to float the RFP to European/Russian shipyards.

OTOH, I am not too convinced about building 6 ships in India, because the all shipyards have their order books full. Don't know where the additional capacity will come from. :confused:

[contedicavour]

As per the news reports (not that I trust those reports completely), Stealth is main requirement for new frigates. Thats the reason to float the RFP to European/Russian shipyards.

OTOH, I am not too convinced about building 6 ships in India, because the all shipyards have their order books full. Don't know where the additional capacity will come from. :confused:

I see. From a European perspective I see the interest of building FREMMs over here and exporting them even if the AAW radar/missiles aren't ours.
I wouldn't see the interest though if both construction and AAW systems were done in India.
I imagine SSMs as well will be Indian (Brahmos), which leaves few components to off the shelf acquisition.

cheers

[contedicavour]

Jane's claims IAC's laying down of the keel is late by 1 year at least, thus delaying in service date to 2013.

Does anybody have more detailed info / confirmation ?

cheers

[harryriedl]

Jane's claims IAC's laying down of the keel is late by 1 year at least, thus delaying in service date to 2013.

Does anybody have more detailed info / confirmation ?

cheers

hears something from the times of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/2269772.cms


After Gorshkov, another Navy project hit by delay


NEW DELHI: The bad news for Navy shows no sign of stopping. The country's most ambitious ship-building project, construction of a 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) at Cochin shipyard, is running way behind schedule. Sources said current projections show IAC will be ready for delivery to Navy earliest by 2015, after completion of construction and trials, instead of the earlier date of 2011-2012.

The IAC project, cleared by the government in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 3,261 crore after several years of dilly-dallying, is lagging behind on "almost all fronts".

"First, there was a big problem in getting 20,000 tonnes of special quality steel for it till SAIL stepped in. Then, there was a huge delay in procurement of bulb bars. Once these was sorted out, other problems crept in," a source said.

"The detailed designs and pre-production work also took a lot of time. As per revised plans, the keel of the warship was to be laid in October 2007 but this has been postponed by at least an year now. Consequently, the project cost will also go up substantially," he added.

All this will add to the woes of Navy, already grappling with huge delays in some big-ticket projects. The induction of the decommissioned Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, for instance, will not be possible before 2010. Rechristened INS Vikramaditya, this 44,570-tonne carrier was supposed to be operationally ready by August 2008, as per the Rs 6,900 crore package deal signed with Russia in January 2004.

Then, of course, there are slippages in the gigantic Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks, slated for delivery between 2012 and 2017.

In the IAC project, the government has even signed two contracts worth 28 million Euros with Italian firm Fincantieri for design, integration, installation and commissioning of the IAC's propulsion system, apart from consultancy in detailed engineering and documentation.

"But despite the steel being cut at the Cochin shipyard in April 2005, the ship construction began only in November 2006," said the source.

To be charitable, one can argue this is the first time India is building an aircraft carrier, which has been the preserve of only US, UK, Russia and France so far.

But almost all defence projects of India suffer from huge time and cost overruns, underlining the lack of proper planning. Though the Navy has projected the need for three aircraft carriers to emerge as the most potent force in the region, it is making do with only one, the 50-year-old INS Viraat, at the moment. Be that as it may, once it is ready, the 252-metre-long IAC will have two runways with ski-jumps and a landing strip with three arrester wires, with the flight deck being around 2.5 acres.

With 160 officers and 1,400 sailors, the ship will be able to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 10 helicopters. Powered by four LM2500 gas turbines generating 80 MW, the carrier will be able to attain a maximum speed of 28 knots and be operationally deployed for 45 days at a stretch.




The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract will be delayed indefinitely due to insufficient financing and poor management of the project, a Russian daily said Wednesday.

The contract to deliver the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India, which state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed with the Indian Navy in January 2004, covers the modernization of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including the MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The ship is undergoing modernization work at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, in northern Russia, but its completion could be delayed for at least another four years, according to some reports.

"The aircraft carrier is being overhauled at the shipyard, but, unfortunately, the funds allocated for the work under the contract are not sufficient and we will have a hard time to meet the schedule," the Izvestia newspaper cited Eduard Borisov, the acting director of Sevmash, as saying.

"We are practically building a new ship using an old hull and changing everything else," Borisov said, adding that the company's management had earlier made an incorrect assessment of the modernization cost.

A high ranking source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti that the company's officials had underestimated the projected overhaul budget by at least 60-70% but had denied their mistakes for a long time.

He said the work already done on the Admiral Gorshkov could be compared to the construction of two destroyers.

"It would have been much easier to start the construction of an aircraft carrier from scratch than to modernize the old one," the source said.

Former director of the Sevmash shipyard, Vladimir Pastukhov, has been recently fired over his poor management of the project and some media reports suggested that prosecutors had been investigating a possible fraud case over mismanagement of funds by Sevmash officials.

Izvestia said Nikolai Kalistratov, the general director of the neighboring Zvyozdochka shipyard, could be appointed as the new head of Sevmash in the next few weeks.

The $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov sale is one of Russia's largest individual military deals with India. The two countries are currently working on military contracts worth $10 billion.

After joining the Indian Navy, the 45,000-ton aircraft carrier will be renamed the INS Vikramaditya and could replace the outdated INS Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which India purchased from Britain in 1986

[kams]

Jane's claims IAC's laying down of the keel is late by 1 year at least, thus delaying in service date to 2013.

Does anybody have more detailed info / confirmation ?

cheers

Steel is supposed to be supplied by Russia. Only problem was it didn't happen:) . So SAIL and Essar Steel (pvt. company) developed the DMR 249 A grade, set up the full production line, obtained Lloyd certification for shipping in 2-3 years. All this completed in 2005 and supplied sufficient steel for plate cutting in 2005.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting article ,it gives some information on the indian navy's rfp for stealth frigates,it seems that lockheed martin is highly excited about it,seems that they want to offer one of their designs(i wonder what design it is ?) with one to be built in a foreign shipyard and the remaining 6 in india ,they are also partnering indian private conglomerate larsen and toubro and offering the indian navy the integrated platform and machinery control system.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081756361700.htm

Bangalore: To augment its surface combatant fleet with a new class of multi-role, fast stealth frigates, the Indian Navy has floated a global request for information (RFI).
The RFI was issued last December to a number of Russian, European and American shipyards for building one vessel in an international shipyard and six in India, most probably at the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai, or the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata.
The deal is expected to be worth around Rs. 30,000 crore.
The Navy’s initiative comes in the wake of the inability of the Indian shipyards to deliver on time, and on account of delays in acquiring modern equipment in the past two decades due to constraints on defence budgets.
The RFI, the first official step in any defence contract, is followed by a request for proposal (RFP), the proposals, contract and price negotiations, before the deal is finally inked.
The stealth frigate project, named Project 17A, is part of the Navy’s plans to acquire a follow-up generation of ships to the ongoing but delayed Project 17, under which Shivalik class multi-role frigates are being built.
Project 17 envisages building a total of 12 ships. The seven ships, for which the RFI has been issued, form part of the project.
Lockheed optimistic

Interestingly, the Navy’s requirement for stealth frigates is being looked at optimistically by the world’s biggest military contractor Lockheed Martin. It has just replied to the RFI. According to Royce Caplinger, Managing Director, Lockheed Martin Global Inc., the company has also identified an overseas shipyard, which will build the first ship of this class for the Indian Navy.
Speaking to The Hindu from Washington, Mr. Caplinger, however, refused to divulge the name or country of the identified shipyard because of proprietary obligations.
He said: “We are hopeful of continuing into the next [RFP] phase.”
Lockheed Martin, which is also in the process of replying along with an Indian prime (Larsen & Toubro Ltd.) to the Navy’s RFP for setting up Integrated Platform Management Systems on the Navy’s ships, has thought it prudent to base a Maritime Sensors and Systems Team in India.
According to the former Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral P.J. Jacob, India should encourage the setting up of ‘Greenfield’ shipyards if the Navy is to, as planned, acquire around 35 ships over the next decade.

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news here ,it seems that the indian navy has recieved indigenously designed new advanced excercise mines,and is also likely to induct the indigenously designed varunastra heavyweight thermal torpedos from 2009 onwards.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081751492100.htm

Naval Science and Tech Lab hands over mine to Navy


A momentous occasion: NSTL Director


‘Our ultimate objective is to achieve self-reliance in underwater systems and weapons.’

Our Bureau

Visakhapatnam, Aug. 16
Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) here on Thursday handed over the advanced exercise mine (AEM) to the Navy. Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), handed over the documents and papers relating to the mine to Vice-Admiral R.P. Suthan, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, at a function in the laboratory.
Describing it as a momentous occasion, Dr V. Bhujanga Rao, Director of the NSTL, said the lab during the 38 years of its existence had its share of successes and failures, but the Navy had stood by it throughout the period. Earlier, the NSTL had provided many systems to the Navy such as fire control systems in the helicopters and the lab would strive hard to provide the requisite systems for the Navy in future.
Cost advantage

Dr S.M. Bhave, Additional Director, in charge of the project, said it had been completed ahead of time at a cost of Rs 7.85 crore. Sixteen companies were involved in the manufacture of the advanced exercise mine, which could be launched from ships, torpedo tubes of submarines and mine saddle of submarines.
He explained the technical features of the mine and said it would cost only Rs 40 lakh, when manufactured indigenously, against the import cost of Rs 2 crore or so.
Dr Sivathanu Pillai, chief controller (R&D) of the DRDO, lauded the achievement of NSTL in handing over the mine to the Navy without any time or cost overruns.
He said the NSTL was currently working on two major projects – the advanced torpedo system called Vaarunasthra and a thermal-engine propelled torpedo. They would be ready in a year’s time.
He said, “Our ultimate objective is to achieve self-reliance in underwater systems and weapons. In this endeavour, we will take the industry – both in the public sector and the private sector – as our partner and forge ahead with the co-operation of the Navy.” He said 65 industries in Andhra Pradesh, several of them based in Vizag, were working with the NSTL.
Mr P.V. Rao, Director of Allen Reinforced Plastics (P) Ltd, said the company had supplied several components and the shell for the mine. “The NSTL has provided the software and we the hardware,” he said.
Vice-Admiral R.P. Suthan, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, who received the documents relating to the mine, said the induction of the system would be of great help in training the naval personnel. He congratulated the NSTL on the occasion.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,great news here ,indian navy has completed the project review of the boeing p8mma and the a319 solution.

here check out this link :
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/08/15/216093/india-completes-airbus-a319-and-boeing-p-8-maritime.html

[aaaditya]

I see. From a European perspective I see the interest of building FREMMs over here and exporting them even if the AAW radar/missiles aren't ours.
I wouldn't see the interest though if both construction and AAW systems were done in India.
I imagine SSMs as well will be Indian (Brahmos), which leaves few components to off the shelf acquisition.

cheers

hey contedicavour do you think that lockheed martin can offer india a 5600 ton version of the lcs design,is it possible to redesign the 2500-3000 ton lcs design to meet the indian navy requirements for a 5600 ton frigate?

[contedicavour]

hey contedicavour do you think that lockheed martin can offer india a 5600 ton version of the lcs design,is it possible to redesign the 2500-3000 ton lcs design to meet the indian navy requirements for a 5600 ton frigate?

Sure it's possible, but it would cost a fortune and it would be totally untried. If India wants a reliable design (because it has been mostly tested on the Horizon AAW destroyers and previously on Lafayette frigates) and a reliable cost estimate and timetable, then go for FREMM. If the programme however can wait another 5 years, then Lockheed stands its chance because in time its stealthy characteristics will be remarkable.

cheers

[contedicavour]

hey guys,check out this interesting article ,it gives some information on the indian navy's rfp for stealth frigates,it seems that lockheed martin is highly excited about it,seems that they want to offer one of their designs(i wonder what design it is ?) with one to be built in a foreign shipyard and the remaining 6 in india ,they are also partnering indian private conglomerate larsen and toubro and offering the indian navy the integrated platform and machinery control system.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081756361700.htm

Bangalore: To augment its surface combatant fleet with a new class of multi-role, fast stealth frigates, the Indian Navy has floated a global request for information (RFI).
The RFI was issued last December to a number of Russian, European and American shipyards for building one vessel in an international shipyard and six in India, most probably at the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai, or the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata.
The deal is expected to be worth around Rs. 30,000 crore.
The Navy’s initiative comes in the wake of the inability of the Indian shipyards to deliver on time, and on account of delays in acquiring modern equipment in the past two decades due to constraints on defence budgets.
The RFI, the first official step in any defence contract, is followed by a request for proposal (RFP), the proposals, contract and price negotiations, before the deal is finally inked.
The stealth frigate project, named Project 17A, is part of the Navy’s plans to acquire a follow-up generation of ships to the ongoing but delayed Project 17, under which Shivalik class multi-role frigates are being built.
Project 17 envisages building a total of 12 ships. The seven ships, for which the RFI has been issued, form part of the project.
Lockheed optimistic

Interestingly, the Navy’s requirement for stealth frigates is being looked at optimistically by the world’s biggest military contractor Lockheed Martin. It has just replied to the RFI. According to Royce Caplinger, Managing Director, Lockheed Martin Global Inc., the company has also identified an overseas shipyard, which will build the first ship of this class for the Indian Navy.
Speaking to The Hindu from Washington, Mr. Caplinger, however, refused to divulge the name or country of the identified shipyard because of proprietary obligations.
He said: “We are hopeful of continuing into the next [RFP] phase.”
Lockheed Martin, which is also in the process of replying along with an Indian prime (Larsen & Toubro Ltd.) to the Navy’s RFP for setting up Integrated Platform Management Systems on the Navy’s ships, has thought it prudent to base a Maritime Sensors and Systems Team in India.
According to the former Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral P.J. Jacob, India should encourage the setting up of ‘Greenfield’ shipyards if the Navy is to, as planned, acquire around 35 ships over the next decade.

My oh my it's so confusing : the stealth FFGs are not part of P17 or are they ? In the same sentence they say one thing and its opposite :confused: How can one think that inside the same programme there may be stealth FFGs and another design ??

cheers

[contedicavour]

Steel is supposed to be supplied by Russia. Only problem was it didn't happen:) . So SAIL and Essar Steel (pvt. company) developed the DMR 249 A grade, set up the full production line, obtained Lloyd certification for shipping in 2-3 years. All this completed in 2005 and supplied sufficient steel for plate cutting in 2005.

Strange things happen... in the land of world leader (in steel) Mittal, issues with high performance steel would be delaying the building of the IAC ? :rolleyes:

cheers

[kams]

Strange things happen... in the land of world leader (in steel) Mittal, issues with high performance steel would be delaying the building of the IAC ? :rolleyes:

cheers

:D :D Well apparently, steel mills prefer rolling commercial grade of steel for which demand is high and so is profit margin. Military grade steel for ship building is not high on their list of priorities. :D . However it shouldn't be too difficult to procure required grade of steel from any other part of the world (say South Korea). It looks like another case of bad project management, govt. bean counters objecting to spending couple of penny/T more etc tec.

In any case this is old news, delay in keel laying may not be related to steel supply as it is produced domestically.

Coming to Stealth firgate,although the reporter is calling them P-17A, extention of P-17 class, both classes may have very little in common. P-17A is supposed to have 8 Brahmos in VLS configuration.

[aaaditya]

Sure it's possible, but it would cost a fortune and it would be totally untried. If India wants a reliable design (because it has been mostly tested on the Horizon AAW destroyers and previously on Lafayette frigates) and a reliable cost estimate and timetable, then go for FREMM. If the programme however can wait another 5 years, then Lockheed stands its chance because in time its stealthy characteristics will be remarkable.

cheers

i dont think,that the fremm design will be as modular ,operationally flexible ,and fast as the lcs.

also i dont think money would be much of a problem,this deal amounts to about 900 million dollars /ship.

can you give me the estimated costs of the fremm and the other european designed warships,it would be realy great.

also i believe that the us lcs was based on an italian design by fincantiery ,can you provide any information about this?

[contedicavour]

i dont think,that the fremm design will be as modular ,operationally flexible ,and fast as the lcs.

also i dont think money would be much of a problem,this deal amounts to about 900 million dollars /ship.

can you give me the estimated costs of the fremm and the other european designed warships,it would be realy great.

also i believe that the us lcs was based on an italian design by fincantiery ,can you provide any information about this?

The design you mention is that of the Destriero, a very fast ship that has been used as the base for the Saettia large FACs (with all diesels it has a top speed in excess of 40kn though in our Coast Guard service only 2/3 of the diesels are installed). Since Fincantieri is leader in the high speed transport ship sector (and in the luxury yacht ;-)) it is involved with Lockheed Martin's bid for LCS.
In the Italian version FREMM costs 350 million euro each (excl R&D and cost of weapons), in the French version 280. Total cost is more about 550 million euro each for the Italian ones. Multiply by 1.34 and you reach 740 mln USD.

cheers

[Galrahn]

Project 17 Specifications (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/shivalik.htm)

Displacement 4600 tons, Full - 5000+ tons
Length 143 m
Beam 17 m
Draft 4.5 m
Moulded Depth 9.2 m
Speed 30 knots for GT operations
22 knots cruising speed on diesels.
Crew 35 Officers
222 Enlisted

India is looking at the Lockheed Martin LCS MMC design (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2007/08/lockheed-martin-lcs-contender-in-indias.html), not the Lockheed Martin LCS design for the US Navy.

Keep in mind Israel is looking at the same ship, and is involved in weapons development with India that would be integrated into this same ship.