Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[aaaditya]

hey guys here i an interetsing news article.

seems that the larsen and toubro will set up a new shipbuilding facility to cater to the needs of the indian navy and the commercial shipping,they recently won a major deal offered by a foreign shipping company.

the l and t will invest 1000 crore rupees in setting up this deep water port.

here check out this link:

Link (http://www.business-standard.com/compindustry/storypage.php?tab=r&autono=94380&subLeft=1&leftnm=1)

Larsen & Toubro (L&T) is planning to set up a mega shipyard in the country at an estimated investment of Rs 1,000 crore. L&T owns a shipyard at Hazira near Surat for construction of high-technology vessels of up to 150 metre length and displacement of 20,000 tonne. Currently, L&T is scouting for a deep water facility on the east and west coasts for its second shipyard. “L&T will invest Rs 1,000 crore in the next three years. We are looking for a suitable waterfront with 12 metre draught for the project. The second yard will be ready by 2009,” L&T Chairman and Managing Director A M Naik said. The company is also looking for a CEO for its shipbuilding venture, Naik said. Naik clarified that the company will not enter into partnership for shipbuilding project. “We have the expertise for ship building. We will not be focussing on general cargo vessel in the new project, instead we will go for specialised vessels,” Naik pointed out. To add, the company is also planning to set up three modular fabrication yard, including one in the Gulf. Earlier, its shipyard at Hazira won a key contract for construction of four ships valued at over Rs 440 crore from the Netherlands-based Zadeko Ship Management CV. Production of the ships will start next month. The Hazira shipyard will focus on construction of commercial vessels and warships for the Navy as well as the Coast Guard. Further expansion programmes envisage installation of ship lifting system for new construction, repairs and refit of ships including defence and paramilitary vessels. The company has made a foray in the dredging business by acquiring a majority stake in International Seaport Dredging Pvt Ltd, promoted by Belgian dredging multinational, Dredging International NV. L&T has acquired 61 per cent stake in Dredging International, headquartered at New Delhi. Naik said the acquisition is in line with the company’s strategy to strengthen its position in ports and harbours. “L&T wants to be a complete port and harbour operator with presence in terminal construction, dredging, marine installation and ship building,” he added.

[aaaditya]

hey guys here is an interesting news article:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1641568,curpg-2.cms


The Navy, of course, wants to induct the carrier, renamed INS Vikramaditya, as scheduled in end-2008. The 16 MiG-29Ks, in turn, as per the Rs 6,900-crore package deal signed with Russia in January 2004, are slated for delivery from mid-2007.

Admiral Prakash will also discuss with the Russian leadership the procurement of three more Talwar-class "stealth" frigates, which are to be inducted within the next five years at a cost of over Rs 1,000-crore each. This contract now only awaits the formal Cabinet Committee on Security approval, as reported earlier by TOI.

These new 4,000-tonne lethal frigates will also be armed with the 300-km BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles - unlike the first three, INS Talwar, INS Trishul and INS Tabar, inducted in 2003-2004.

Another project on the agenda will be India's plan to procure eight long-range maritime patrol aircraft to bolster the Navy's snooping capabilities. Russian IL-38s, which the Navy already operates, are jostling with the American P-3C Orions to bag this contract.

Incidentally, the Navy is also awaiting the return of two upgraded IL-38s - fitted with "Sea Dragon mission suites" to augment their independent capability to detect and track hostile aircraft, ships and submarines - from Russia. Russia had sent back the first such IL-38SD plane to India some months ago.

[gf0012-aust]

Russian IL-38s, which the Navy already operates, are jostling with the American P-3C Orions to bag this contract.

Incidentally, the Navy is also awaiting the return of two upgraded IL-38s - fitted with "Sea Dragon mission suites" to augment their independent capability to detect and track hostile aircraft, ships and submarines - from Russia. Russia had sent back the first such IL-38SD plane to India some months ago.

I can't believe they are still pushing the IL-38 barrow. Indian AF personnel were in australia in 2001 complaining about the russians trying to flog off older non supportable airplanes and with electronic suites that were inferior to french stuff more readily available and supportable. Hell, even the Russians are struggling to support their IL-38's - its why theyr'e so keen to flog them off so that they smarten up their own redundant platform lines. We managed to get a look at various IL-38 systems at their request - and I'd have to say that if was not an awe inspiring event.

why would you even consider staying with an airframe that is unsupported - and with a sensor suite that still has some problems. Its not as if ASW technologies are greenfield. Far better for India to French, UK or US ASW systems where capability is not in question.

[aaaditya]

russians have recently set up a company in india for the supply of spares,services and technology to india for its russian made weapons.

however india still wants to acquire russia asw aeroplanes to fill up the gap caused by the loss of the 2 il38's as well as the increased force strength necessiated by the increasing responsibility of the eez.

these aircrafts will be temporary solution till the maritime reconnaisance aircraft competition for both the navy and coast guard is completed .

[zoolander]

why is the indian navy looking to russia for asw planes. They have money, why dont they look to the united states or some western nation to buy more better and more advanced goods.

[aaaditya]

why is the indian navy looking to russia for asw planes. They have money, why dont they look to the united states or some western nation to buy more better and more advanced goods.

india needs russian planes as temporary options,they are currentlu carrying out a competition for choosing a mra (the best one to meet the indian options) and most probably either boeing p8mma or the airbus a319 will be the preferred option,however these will be available only after another 7-10 years later. and till then indian navy wants to maintain its force levels.

also you must understand that usa is a highly unreliable supplier ,and hence i believe indian should go for the a319.

during the kargil war usa refused to supply india the critically needed spares for the sea king anti submarine warfare helicopters ,grounding the entire fleet.stung by this ,india is more carefull with the us technology,when they purchased the hawk trainers all the american components were replaced with the british ones,it was a bit more expensive but definitely worth it.

[aaaditya]

hey guys does anyone have any idea about any indigenous air defence systems developed by india ,good enough to replace the russian made gun cum missile systems on the 3 krivack class of stealth frigates to be acquired from russia(maybe a combo of indigenously upgraded bofors l70gun and the israeli barak missile) or the oerlikon contraves 35mm gun,israeli barak missile combination.

here is another article which mentions about this system:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060617/nation.htm


Cabinet to decide on new stealth frigates
Tribune News Service
Mumbai, June 16
The proposal to purchase three Talwar class stealth frigates from Russia has been sent to the Cabinet.
According to naval sources, the top brass have completed price negotiations on the purchase of the frigates and a final decision will be taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security.
India is to spend Rs 3,000 crore on the frigates which will have the new BrahMos missile installed on them. Three Talwar class frigates, which are a modified version of the Krivak III class frigates of Russia, are in service with the Navy. These were inducted in 2003 and 2004. The sources said the new Talwar class frigates would have a larger degree of indigenisation than the earlier ships. Apart from local components, the frigates would have an air defense system designed by Indian engineers.

[zoolander]

Compared to western nations, what aspects of Russian naval techlogy is still better than western nations. I know their naval missiles are still far better but i am pretty unsure about everything else. Can someone explain what russia still has a advantage in and if they sell those things.

[Big-E]

Compared to western nations, what aspects of Russian naval techlogy is still better than western nations. I know their naval missiles are still far better but i am pretty unsure about everything else. Can someone explain what russia still has a advantage in and if they sell those things.

Do you mind telling me why you want to make this into a pissing contest?

[contedicavour]

It is true that India is the only major Navy insisting on blending together armament from so many several sources : Russia, Israel (Barak SAMs), Europe (French submarines, Italian ASW and command technology, German submarines...), now even the US (P-3s, potentially even F-18).

It may make sense not having to rely on only one source, in case of sanctions. It may also make sense to keep up competition to obtain lower prices and more significant offsets such as local production of part of the weaponry.

Still, I am amazed how much complication India is generating by operating ships with so many different systems. Take the Godavaris for example : mix of Russian and Western radars, Italian ASW, Russian and Israeli missiles... this only makes the ships more expensive, harder to operate and maintain.

cheers

[Big-E]

Still, I am amazed how much complication India is generating by operating ships with so many different systems. Take the Godavaris for example : mix of Russian and Western radars, Italian ASW, Russian and Israeli missiles... this only makes the ships more expensive, harder to operate and maintain.

cheers

Exactly, they have integrated so many different nationalities into their equipment they are the "melting-pot" of foreign technologies. I'm afraid there stopgap solution for filling in foriegn equipment until they start domestic technologies is going to hurt them in the long run. They need to stick with one supplier.

[n21]

Exactly, they have integrated so many different nationalities into their equipment they are the "melting-pot" of foreign technologies. I'm afraid there stopgap solution for filling in foriegn equipment until they start domestic technologies is going to hurt them in the long run. They need to stick with one supplier.

The foremost explaination would be the "over-simplied logic" of getting what best u can with the budget you have. Probably this has to do with a lot other factors also.

For example buying a western warship would be very expensive. So u either u build at home or buy a russian cheaper one. The systems on board are much more important than a warship,however if u get a russian system,which would be eventally sold to china ..in the end what have u got? .

Also it would be less expensive to get partial systems like ASW or radar from a western source,which u know would be better than a russian one and would give u that edge.Moreover the local designers would a better reference in case they have to develop one.That's my thinking.

This "melting pot" concept is spreading in all the three arms of the Indian Defence forces.SU-30 for the ariforce,Arjun(not a very good "sucessful" example) for the army.

But i should say I am amazed how they manage to integrated and operates different systems from different sources!

[aaaditya]

hey guys according to this latets news article ,seems that it is going to be the nerpa for the indian navy with love from russia.

here check out this link:

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/01/stories/2006070118091800.htm

The Nerpa nuclear submarine was launched at the Amur shipyard




MOSCOW: A nuclear-powered submarine that will reportedly be leased to India was launched at a shipyard in the Russian Far East, a news agency report said.
The Nerpa nuclear submarine was launched at the Amur shipyard and will join Russia's Pacific Fleet in 2007 after undergoing sea trials, the RIA Novosti news agency quoted Vice-Admiral Anatoly Shlemov on Friday.
However, earlier reports said the Nerpa submarine was to be leased for 10 years to India under a 2004 secret deal. Indian and Russian officials have denied the reports.
Nerpa is the Project 971 third-generation submarine (NATO code name Akula-II), the most advanced Russian nuclear attack submarine. The Russian Navy's Akula-II submarines are equipped with 28 nuclear-capable cruise missiles with a striking range of 3,000 km. The Indian version is expected to be armed with the 300-km Club nuclear-capable missiles. Russia test-fired a ballistic missile Friday. The RSM-54 missile (Skiff SSN-23 in NATO codification), launched from the Tula nuclear submarine in the Barents Sea, hit a target on the Kura test range some 3,000 miles away, in the Kamchatka peninsula in Russia's far east, defence officials said.

[aaaditya]

hey guys check out this news article which provides quite some usefull information on the indian auv project which is in advanced stage of development. this vehicle in its current prototype form weighs 350kgs,can operate to a depth of 150 metres at a speed of 4-5 kts and has an endurance of 5 hours,is pre-programmable and hence does not require a cable for manouvering and is capable of burst transmission of the collected data.

this vessel is to be used for mine clearance,mine field mapping,underwater surveillance etc.

here check out this link:

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=190700


Kolkata, June 30: IIT-Kharagpur has developed India’s first autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV), which can bring back deep-sea images, read oceanographic data, collect water samples and perform military surveillance like pin-pointing sea mines planted by enemies. The wireless, intelligent vehicle (see photo) is fitted with a computer and can manoeuvre on its own upto 150 metres under sea for at least five hours. Unlike a remote-operated vehicle (ROV), which has to be guided by a surface platform, this vehicle is pre-programmed before it is released under sea to carry out specific tasks.

Prof. Debabrata Sen of IIT-Kharagpur’s Department of Ocean Engineering and Naval Architecture is spearheading the Rs 7-crore project, commissioned by the Union Ministry of Ocean Development in 2003. The department is working on this project in collaboration with the institute’s Department of Mechanical Engineering and Electronics.

“The design for AUV is complete,” Prof Sen said. “The vehicle is now being assembled by CMERI, Durgapur. In Asia, only Japan possesses this technology but it is frightfully expensive to import. India just needs an indigenous AUV.”
Cylindrical in shape, AUV is 4.5 metres long, half a meter wide and weighs 350 kg, he said. “It is also fitted with an acoustic modem that can send back a burst of signals occasionally. The speed capacity is two to four knots and AUV runs on a special battery.”
According to Sen, AUV will be useful in national crises like, say, an oil spill or a tsunami. “Since AUV requires no cable to manoeuvre it under water, the mother ship can just launch the vehicle and disappear from the disaster spot.” IIT-Kharagpur director Prof S K Dube said the AUV will strengthen India’s position strategically: “It will help us understand ocean and map it more accurately.”

[contedicavour]

hey guys according to this latets news article ,seems that it is going to be the nerpa for the indian navy with love from russia.

here check out this link:

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/01/stories/2006070118091800.htm

The Nerpa nuclear submarine was launched at the Amur shipyard




MOSCOW: A nuclear-powered submarine that will reportedly be leased to India was launched at a shipyard in the Russian Far East, a news agency report said.
The Nerpa nuclear submarine was launched at the Amur shipyard and will join Russia's Pacific Fleet in 2007 after undergoing sea trials, the RIA Novosti news agency quoted Vice-Admiral Anatoly Shlemov on Friday.
However, earlier reports said the Nerpa submarine was to be leased for 10 years to India under a 2004 secret deal. Indian and Russian officials have denied the reports.
Nerpa is the Project 971 third-generation submarine (NATO code name Akula-II), the most advanced Russian nuclear attack submarine. The Russian Navy's Akula-II submarines are equipped with 28 nuclear-capable cruise missiles with a striking range of 3,000 km. The Indian version is expected to be armed with the 300-km Club nuclear-capable missiles. Russia test-fired a ballistic missile Friday. The RSM-54 missile (Skiff SSN-23 in NATO codification), launched from the Tula nuclear submarine in the Barents Sea, hit a target on the Kura test range some 3,000 miles away, in the Kamchatka peninsula in Russia's far east, defence officials said.

What would Russia gain from such a long lease on a brand new SSN, especially if India plans on building its own SSNs locally anyway (though with some Russian design & technology) ?
If I were the Russians I would rather sell it entirely :confused:

cheers

[aaaditya]

What would Russia gain from such a long lease on a brand new SSN, especially if India plans on building its own SSNs locally anyway (though with some Russian design & technology) ?
If I were the Russians I would rather sell it entirely :confused:

cheers

about 300 million dollars per year or 3 billion dollars at the end of a 10 year period.

while india will gain a vital training platform for the crew of its indigenous nuclear submarines and important lessons derived from russian submarines to be incorporated into the indian submarines(it is a wonderfull chance for india to thoroughly analyse and gain from the russian submarine technology).

[Deeps_rock]

about 300 million dollars per year or 3 billion dollars at the end of a 10 year period.

while india will gain a vital training platform for the crew of its indigenous nuclear submarines and important lessons derived from russian submarines to be incorporated into the indian submarines(it is a wonderfull chance for india to thoroughly analyse and gain from the russian submarine technology).


Dont u think 300 million is too much for a month.If we spend that much on indegenous research and development we will surely have some success..

[aaaditya]

Dont u think 300 million is too much for a month.If we spend that much on indegenous research and development we will surely have some success..

it is 300 million dollars per year,honestly your mathematical abilities are disgusting.

by the way you should view this as a defence research spending,since india can get access to cutting edge technology ,which not many countries have ,they can improve their knowledge and design abilities with respect to nuclear submarine,it will be very usefull for the indigenous atv project.

the crew can get trained for the operation of the indigenous atv(which is claimed to be based on the russian design).

the russian submarine would also perform its intended combat role ,should any hostilities occur).

[contedicavour]

about 300 million dollars per year or 3 billion dollars at the end of a 10 year period.

while india will gain a vital training platform for the crew of its indigenous nuclear submarines and important lessons derived from russian submarines to be incorporated into the indian submarines(it is a wonderfull chance for india to thoroughly analyse and gain from the russian submarine technology).

Ok one may say Russia needs 3 bn USD over 10 years to revamp its defence industries. Though it could have tried to sell the new Akula for its market value of 2.0 bn approx (depending on the weaponry) USD paid for upfront, with a strong chance of selling more afterwards, or, at worst (for them of course), of building more in Indian shipyards under licence.
Instead, the Indian Navy will (as you say) learn a lot and eventually build its own version of the Akula without more than technical support from Russia (who will earn a lot less than from a real licence).
Congratulations to India for a good deal, very unsure Russia did a good deal :rolleyes:

cheers

[aaaditya]

Ok one may say Russia needs 3 bn USD over 10 years to revamp its defence industries. Though it could have tried to sell the new Akula for its market value of 2.0 bn approx (depending on the weaponry) USD paid for upfront, with a strong chance of selling more afterwards, or, at worst (for them of course), of building more in Indian shipyards under licence.
Instead, the Indian Navy will (as you say) learn a lot and eventually build its own version of the Akula without more than technical support from Russia (who will earn a lot less than from a real licence).
Congratulations to India for a good deal, very unsure Russia did a good deal :rolleyes:

cheers


i dont think you are permitted to sell nuclear submarines to a country,atleast not with a nuclear reactor.

[Big-E]

i dont think you are permitted to sell nuclear submarines to a country,atleast not with a nuclear reactor.

Their not... I think this lease is saying that the ATV is having more difficulties than expected. If they were on schedule a 10yr lease would not be necessary. I imagine getting that big reactor into the tiny ATV is proving a bit of a challange. If they would just scrap ATV and go with the Russian design she would be ready today.

[contedicavour]

i dont think you are permitted to sell nuclear submarines to a country,atleast not with a nuclear reactor.

Well now that India is a recognized nuclear power and that even the US has stopped sanctions of any kind, I guess Russia wouldn't run into big trouble if it sold SSNs to India. One day it may even be the US that does it, as bilateral relations are improving at light speed...

cheers

[ajaybhutani]

Well now that India is a recognized nuclear power and that even the US has stopped sanctions of any kind, I guess Russia wouldn't run into big trouble if it sold SSNs to India. One day it may even be the US that does it, as bilateral relations are improving at light speed...

cheers
no russia cant. Not even US can without breaking the treaties it has signed. any nuclear supply to india is barred as NSG (nuclear suppliers group) supply to only NPT signatories..Even in that case i dont think its allowed to supply any military nuclear equipment.
russia cannot sell nuclear subs to india as it is a part of NSG. but why this issue is getting a lot of heat is because it doesnt state about lease of nuclear equipments. For instance there was a plan put forward by russians for supply of nuclear civil reactors to india by saying that its just a lease of reactors.. but since no lease of any kind of nucelar equipment has been done by a NSG member to a non NPT signatory its only a possibility that we can get a lease..( at least theres a little chance)
but its quite difficult because it opens doors for chineese/other nuclear submarines to paksitan, north korea,iran lybia etc.. etc.. do you really think it would be possible

[contedicavour]

no russia cant. Not even US can without breaking the treaties it has signed. any nuclear supply to india is barred as NSG (nuclear suppliers group) supply to only NPT signatories..Even in that case i dont think its allowed to supply any military nuclear equipment.
russia cannot sell nuclear subs to india as it is a part of NSG. but why this issue is getting a lot of heat is because it doesnt state about lease of nuclear equipments. For instance there was a plan put forward by russians for supply of nuclear civil reactors to india by saying that its just a lease of reactors.. but since no lease of any kind of nucelar equipment has been done by a NSG member to a non NPT signatory its only a possibility that we can get a lease..( at least theres a little chance)
but its quite difficult because it opens doors for chineese/other nuclear submarines to paksitan, north korea,iran lybia etc.. etc.. do you really think it would be possible

Very interesting remarks, thanks.
So India will have to develop its own reactors to fit aboard submarines, no alternative way exists.
cheers

[aaaditya]

hey guys great news seems that indian navy will acquire 3 new krivack class frigates additional klub missiles and will upgrade 6 more kilo class of submarines.

here check out this link:

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

CCS approves purchase of warships, missiles for Navy

NEW DELHI, JULY 6 (PTI)
In a move aimed at bolstering the Navy's fighting potential, the Cabinet Committee on Security today approved the purchase of three more Russian stealth warships and 28 submarine-fired cruise missiles.
The three Russian Krivak-class frigates would be acquired at a cost of Rs 5114 crores. The first one would be delivered five years after the signing of the contract and the subsequent two within 12 months after the delivery of the first warship, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee told newsmen after a meeting of Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
Mukherjee said the purchase of the three Russian frigates was a follow-up order to the purchase of three of the same type of warships in the late 1990s. Indian Navy has already inducted three Krivak-class warships that were re-christened Talwar-class.
He said CCS has also approved earmarking of another Rs 400 crores for "certain other equipment" for these stealth warships.
Though, he did not elaborate, highly placed sources said the funds would be used for fitting the new frigates with BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

India had purchased the initial three Russian frigates at a cost of over Rs 3,000 crore. It would now be shelling out Rs 5,114 crore for the new warships.
The CCS also approved the purchase of 28 submarine-launched KLUB land attack cruise missiles to arm its Russian acquired kilo-class submarines.
In a deal worth over Rs 844.5 crore, these missiles would be fitted in six upgraded submarines already bought by India, Mukherjee said. Two of the submarines would be fitted with the missiles in Russia while the other four would be equipped with the cruise missiles in India. He also said that the CCS has approved an additional sum of Rs 20 crore for meeting security-related expenses of Jammu and Kashmir and North Eastern states.

[aaaditya]

Their not... I think this lease is saying that the ATV is having more difficulties than expected. If they were on schedule a 10yr lease would not be necessary. I imagine getting that big reactor into the tiny ATV is proving a bit of a challange. If they would just scrap ATV and go with the Russian design she would be ready today.

actually the hull design has been finalised,the problem of the reactor containment vessel is claimed to be solved albeit with the russian assistance.

the reactor has been successfully tested at kalpakkam ,currently integration work is going on,the submarine is expected to be launched late next year.

[aaaditya]

hey guys seems that the indian cost guard is on an expansion mode.

here check out this link:

http://newstodaynet.com/06jul/rf13.htm

The Indian Coast Guard will acquire 13 vessels of varying sizes and purpose in the future in a bid to contain maritime crime and pollution. Also, four Coast Guard stations - three in Gujarat and one in Maharashtra would be set up soon at a cost of Rs 300 crore.

Announcing this to mediapersons on board the Coast Guard ship 'Sarang' after a joint exercise with the Korean Coast Guard off Chennai yesterday, Inspector General Rajendra Singh, Commander, Coast Guard Region (East), said the Coast Guard would receive its first ship fitted with an oil disperser by the end of this year, which would help fight pollution.
To a question on the situation prevailing in Sri Lanka, Singh replied that even as the influx of refugees from Sri Lanka had risen to about 4,800, there were no terrorists among them. He said the Coast Guard deployed three of its ships on round-the-clock duty in the Palk Bay.
Speaking about the joint exercise between India and Korea, Indian Coast Guard DIG S P Sharma said senior officials from both sides had learnt a lot from each other and described the exercises as successful.
He said the two countries had agreed to cooperate in search and rescue operations, combating marine pollution and trans-national crimes, exchange of information on rogue vessels, persons and suspects. The Korean Coast Guard Director General of Intelligence and Investigation, Cho In Hyun said the two countries would draw up a standardised procedure manual to be followed by Coast Guard vessels of both countries during operations which would help both countries during times of actual operations.

[XEROX]

Intresting bit of news...

Thales UK offers to sell sub-systems for India's N-subs

Press Trust of India
Glasgow,July 9, 2006
[/URL]British defence majors are expressing readiness to export frontline weapons technology to India and 'Thales UK' has even offered to sell some critical sub-systems for New Delhi's top secret nuclear submarine project.
"Here we have developed a non-hull penetrating technology to remove cumbersome periscopes from submarines. And we are ready to offer this technology for India's upgraded Kilo class submarines and its Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV)," Peter Mcbride, Director Naval exports of the company said.

Thales is making these non-penetrating hull masts and Mcbride said these new systems comprised the futuristic submarine combat management area.
He said these hulls were now being installed in the US navy's Virgina class submarines and also being used for trials for future French Nuclear submarine.

"These new hulls give the submarines minimum exposure above water and also long-range engagement capability. These hulls can be fitted in submarines with displacements ranging from 50 to 16,000 tonnes," he said.
The Thales offer indicates that Defence Research and Development Organisation and Naval design bureau have made the crucial breakthrough on the ATV.

According to reports, defence scientists have finally been able to fit a nuclear power plant on the hull of the indigenous nuclear submarine.


[URL="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1739592,00050003.htm"]Link (http://www.hindustantimes.com/on/img/0.gif)

means the project is on track then..

[zoolander]

they are most likely using the loop holes. India won't spend billions on nothing. what level would the sub be. first generation las angelas class? Victor I or II ?

[aaaditya]

Intresting bit of news...



Link (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1739592,00050003.htm)

means the project is on track then..

well this confirms what i have been saying for so long.

also israel is believed to be helping indian in this project(in electronics and combat management systems),while russia is helping with the sub and the reactor design.

[aaaditya]

here is a possible candidate,this optronics mast is used on the royal navy's astute class of submarines.

check out this link:

http://www.thalesgroup-optronics.com/dos/products/naval/details/opmast.shtml

[gf0012-aust]

here is a possible candidate,this optronics mast is used on the royal navy's astute class of submarines.

check out this link:

http://www.thalesgroup-optronics.com/dos/products/naval/details/opmast.shtml (http://www.thalesgroup-optronics.com/dos/products/naval/details/opmast.shtml)


Possible candidate for what? I haven't seen anything in the IN proposals or discussions about using photonics/optronics. It would also mean a major redesign of the subs layout and combat system if it was going to be used to maximum benefit.

[aaaditya]

Possible candidate for what? I haven't seen anything in the IN proposals or discussions about using photonics/optronics. It would also mean a major redesign of the subs layout and combat system if it was going to be used to maximum benefit.

i have recently come to know that dcn is likely to offer india joint development of its smx21 submarine project as a rival to the russo-italian project based on the amur class for india's second submarine line.

would you have any information on this submarine design?

by the way the thales optronics mast can be installed during a refit on the existing submarines,the atv being a relatively new design should be relatively easier to modify for the use of the thales optronics mast.

[aaaditya]

here is the article and the link:

Thales UK offers to sell sub-systems for India's N-subs

A K DHAR GLASGOW, JULY 9 (PTI)
British defence majors are expressing readiness to export frontline weapons technology to India and 'Thales UK' has even offered to sell some critical sub-systems for New Delhi's top secret nuclear submarine project.
"Here we have developed a non-hull penetrating technology to remove cumbersome periscopes from submarines. And we are ready to offer this technology for India's upgraded Kilo class submarines and its Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV)," Peter Mcbride, Director Naval exports of the company, told PTI.
Thales is making these non-penetrating hull masts here and Mcbride said these new systems comprised the futuristic submarine combat management area.
He said these hulls were now being installed in the US navy's Virgina class submarines and also being used for trials for future French Nuclear submarine.
"These new hulls give the submarines minimum exposure above water and also long-range engagement capability. These hulls can be fitted in submarines with displacements ranging from 50 to 16,000 tonnes," he said. The Thales offer indicates that Defence Research and Development Organisation and Naval design bureau have made the crucial breakthrough on the ATV. According to reports, defence scientists have finally been able to fit a nuclear power plant on the hull of the indegenious nuclear submarine.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

[gf0012-aust]

by the way the thales optronics mast can be installed during a refit on the existing submarines,the atv being a relatively new design should be relatively easier to modify for the use of the thales optronics mast.

I think you're missing the point - the advantage of photonics masts is that they allow the sub design and internal configuration to be redesigned and not along traditional designs.

Of course you can retro fit it - but you're not maximising the benefits of the capability in the overall sub design - this is especially so on a 40-50 year old core design (which the Charlie Class are) and which has thus already been developed..

[aaaditya]

I think you're missing the point - the advantage of photonics masts is that they allow the sub design and internal configuration to be redesigned and not along traditional designs.

Of course you can retro fit it - but you're not maximising the benefits of the capability in the overall sub design - this is especially so on a 40-50 year old core design (which the Charlie Class are) and which has thus already been developed..

thanks for that info,but can you provide any info or links on the smx21 submarine project of dcn(other than the dcn website),i have seen their image and they seem to be quite unuque.

[aaaditya]

hey guys ins amba is to be retired,it is the end of an era for the indian navy.

here check out this link:

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEA20060715020437&Page=A&Title=Southern+News+-+Andhra+Pradesh&Topic=0

INS Amba to be decommissioned
Saturday July 15 2006 12:26 IST
VISAKHAPATNAM: Indian Naval Ship Amba, an Ugra class submarine depot ship, will be decommissioned at the Naval Base here tomorrow by Eastern Naval Command Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Vice-Admiral Sureesh Mehta.

INS Amba served the nation and Indian Navy for 38 years and is the last of the ships, which extensively participated in the 1971 war with Pakistan.

The decommissioning ceremony will see a traditional ‘pay off’ of the ship with the naval band playing the ‘last post’ and hauling down of the national flag, the naval ensign and the decommissioning pennant at sunset. A ‘Barakhana’ for the ships company will be held in the afternoon.

INS Amba was commissioned on 28 December 1968 by Capt MR Shuner at Odessa in the erstwhile USSR. Her major role as a submarine depot ship was to provide both operative and administrative support to the submarine squadron.

Amba was instrumental in extending the ‘sea-legs’ of the Indian Navy. With her intrinsic heavy duty repair bays, torpedo workshops, medical facilities and huge accommodation space, she enabled long deployments of submarines away from base ports, both in the Arabian sea and the Bay of Bengal.

[kams]

Some intresting comments by Admiral Arun Prakash about future plans for Navy's air wing, in particular about Boeing-737 P-8 MMA. However there is no plan for carrier based fixed wing AEW platform.

Indian navy (http://indiaenews.com/2006-07/15206-indian-navy-eyes-100-aircraft-admiral-arun-prakash.htm)

[aaaditya]

Some intresting comments by Admiral Arun Prakash about future plans for Navy's air wing, in particular about Boeing-737 P-8 MMA. However there is no plan for carrier based fixed wing AEW platform.

Indian navy (http://indiaenews.com/2006-07/15206-indian-navy-eyes-100-aircraft-admiral-arun-prakash.htm)

that would be great,a very formidable naval airwing to harrass the enemy navy or to support our own airforce and naval ships,i believe boeing p8mma is the favourite as of now ,though airbus has offered a naval variant of its a320.

[aaaditya]

finally guys india and russia have signed the contract for 3 additional krivack class of stealth warships.

here check out this link:

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/19russia.htm

Russia to build 3 warships for India

July 19, 2006 00:48 IST


Russia will build three stealth warships for India under a Rs 5,514-contract signed in New Delhi on Tuesday.
The signing of the contract came nearly two weeks after the Cabinet Committee on Security approved the purchase of three more Russian stealth warships and 28 submarine-fired cruise missiles in a move aimed at bolstering the navy's fighting potential.
The three Russian Krivak-class frigates would be acquired at a cost of Rs 5,114 crores. The first one would be delivered five years after the signing of the contract and the subsequent two within 12 months after the delivery of the first warship, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee told newsmen after a meeting of Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
Mukherjee said the purchase of the three Russian frigates was a follow-up order to the purchase of three of the same type of warships in the late 1990s.
Indian Navy has already inducted three Krivak-class warships that were re-christened Talwar-class.

[Archer]

Possible candidate for what? I haven't seen anything in the IN proposals or discussions about using photonics/optronics. It would also mean a major redesign of the subs layout and combat system if it was going to be used to maximum benefit.

It has been offered for the refit of IN's Type 209s as well as the oh so secret that everyone and his cat knows about it ATV project.

[tphuang]

I think you're missing the point - the advantage of photonics masts is that they allow the sub design and internal configuration to be redesigned and not along traditional designs.

Of course you can retro fit it - but you're not maximising the benefits of the capability in the overall sub design - this is especially so on a 40-50 year old core design (which the Charlie Class are) and which has thus already been developed..
wait, so the ATV is based on the Charlie Class? I thought it was going to be more advanced than that.

[aaaditya]

wait, so the ATV is based on the Charlie Class? I thought it was going to be more advanced than that.

we cant be sure about that,initially it was believed to be based on the russian charlie class ,india had gained working experience on one charlie class of submarine.

however jane sources had mentioned ,that due to extensive russian influence ,the indian submarine resembles the project 885 severodvinsk class ,also israel is believed to be heavily involved in this project.

[samraat]

we cant be sure about that,initially it was believed to be based on the russian charlie class ,india had gained working experience on one charlie class of submarine.

however jane sources had mentioned ,that due to extensive russian influence ,the indian submarine resembles the project 885 severodvinsk class ,also israel is believed to be heavily involved in this project.


Hi this is my first post , i will like to add some thing here , CHARLIE class is quite obselete , din't you think so ???

indian navy did had experience on charlie class submarine , but i don't feel that accounted as indians headed for Russian docks for the training before akulla arrives and that 's what ATV should look like there are reports that india is also keen to have an JV with russian navy in builing a entire new sub ti be named Akulla 'Tigra' , sorry i don't have any credible link for that i will be posting that ASAP ,



So why should Indian navy be keen on vintage Charlie class

[aaaditya]

hey guys here is an interesting article on the projected requirements of the indian navy by 2020,i agree with most of them ,though i believe that the indian navy should also try to induct missile firing catamarans.

here check out this link:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=26

[contedicavour]

hey guys here is an interesting article on the projected requirements of the indian navy by 2020,i agree with most of them ,though i believe that the indian navy should also try to induct missile firing catamarans.

here check out this link:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=26

Very interesting article, as most material posted on Bharat Rakshak internet site :)
A few questions for you
> in order to replace the obsolete Kashin DDGs, wouldn't a more advanced design be better than a follow-on to the Delhi DDGs ? I'll be specific, the ships are excellent at ASUW but IMHO lack adequate AAW (both in radars and in missiles, since the SA-N-7/17 is too short ranged)
> in order to replace the Kilos, why not standardize the Navy on Scorpene ? The Scorpene seem to me to be better than Lada (sensor suite and proven AIP technology), though I'd like your opinion
> is the MIG29K the best option to equip your 2 carriers under construction/refit ? Wouldn't SU33 be better in terms of range and payload ?

cheers

[aaaditya]

Very interesting article, as most material posted on Bharat Rakshak internet site :)
A few questions for you
> in order to replace the obsolete Kashin DDGs, wouldn't a more advanced design be better than a follow-on to the Delhi DDGs ? I'll be specific, the ships are excellent at ASUW but IMHO lack adequate AAW (both in radars and in missiles, since the SA-N-7/17 is too short ranged)
> in order to replace the Kilos, why not standardize the Navy on Scorpene ? The Scorpene seem to me to be better than Lada (sensor suite and proven AIP technology), though I'd like your opinion
> is the MIG29K the best option to equip your 2 carriers under construction/refit ? Wouldn't SU33 be better in terms of range and payload ?

cheers

1) p-15a's would be pretty excellent warships,in all three dimensions of warfare(land,air and sea),besides the firepower of the delhi class in land attack,asw/asuw warfare,these warships will have more advanced radars,the super barak surface to air missile (being jointly developed with israel and claimed to have a range of 70+ kms),it will also incorporate stealth technology.

2)india is very much interested in the russo-italian project based on the lada,the attractive feature of this project is the flexibility that it offers.mdl cannot build the scorpenes fast enough to meet the navy's requirements and hence the need for a second submarine line(india currently operates 3 types of submarines).indian navy would prefer its own sensor suite on the lada ,with italian designed aip based on the german fuel cells,indigenous batteries etc.the indigenous sonar has been found to be superior to the ones used on the latest variant of the kilo class(meant for export),and have been retrofitted on the indian kilo's the indigenous batteries have also found their way in the kilo's.

3)su33 would be excellent ,but can it be filled on the gorshkov?can enough of them be carried on board the gorshkov to maintain a powerfull force and a reserve?these were the questions faced by the indian navy when they evaluated the su33,mig29k and the rafale for the gorshkov?they found that the su33 was too heavy and occupied too much space to be used effectively from the gorshkov,also the mig29 offers commonality with the indian airforce mig29's and hence the mig29k's were selected.

[slim]

I feel that although p-15A would be a good and cost effective platform in the short term I feel its hull design is dated. India very urgently needs to expand and modernise its ship building facilities. Before the last of The P-15A are commisioned India needs to start another line of more modern Destroyers in Shipyards other than Mdl . And I feel Admiral MadhvendraSinghs stated requirements for amphibious vessels were very modest. although India has a fairly impressive surface fleet , Its leaders seem to have grossly neglected both its amphibious and submarine fleet. Very likely Submarine Problem will be rectified but India will sorely lack amphibious capability commensurate with its status and size. By 2020 India must be able to deploy3-4 brigades along with their logistics and support and aim for atleast 2 LHDs along with the proposed LSDs. the Italians and the Spanish who have a far smaller navy compared to India are still retaining and aiming for a much Larger amphibious capability than India eventhough very likely India needs it much more than either of them. Similary Indian Surface fleet is very close to the size of those of Britain and France, but in amphibious capability India is far far behind

[fightermki]

india will surely have to put in a lot of effort since many of the ships are going to be decomissioned in next few years , since most of the ships are coming from the goi ship building yards they have to go for capacity expansion even if they want to be on the current schedule. i think that since l&T and kirloskar are seriously bulling for production of naval assets less technological needs must be sourced to them <tankers,amphibous crafts,patrol vessels,coast guard ships, corvettes too> and relieve the psu units to concentrate on technologicaly intensive projects like destroyers,frigates,submarines etc. no blue water navy dreams are going to be fullfilled until a country is going to induct more ships then retiring ones on a regular basis, private sector involvement will also increase competition and deliveries will be strictly on shedule. more over it will also give a boost to domestic shipbilding considering that most of the container vessels and tankers of shipping corporation of india are also on decomissionig spree and they need around 100 high capacity vessels even to restore the current stats private sector indian companies can have their share of profits too and maybe in future they could comptete with the big boys of shipbuilding.

[aaaditya]

india will surely have to put in a lot of effort since many of the ships are going to be decomissioned in next few years , since most of the ships are coming from the goi ship building yards they have to go for capacity expansion even if they want to be on the current schedule. i think that since l&T and kirloskar are seriously bulling for production of naval assets less technological needs must be sourced to them <tankers,amphibous crafts,patrol vessels,coast guard ships, corvettes too> and relieve the psu units to concentrate on technologicaly intensive projects like destroyers,frigates,submarines etc. no blue water navy dreams are going to be fullfilled until a country is going to induct more ships then retiring ones on a regular basis, private sector involvement will also increase competition and deliveries will be strictly on shedule. more over it will also give a boost to domestic shipbilding considering that most of the container vessels and tankers of shipping corporation of india are also on decomissionig spree and they need around 100 high capacity vessels even to restore the current stats private sector indian companies can have their share of profits too and maybe in future they could comptete with the big boys of shipbuilding.

currently as many as 30 new ships of various sizes and displacements are under various stages of construction (ranging from destroyers to an aircraft carrier),the indian governemnet has also granted its approval in principle for another 34 vessels.added to this the private sector giant larsen and toubro has also entered shipbuilding industry in order to manufacture vessels for the indian navy,indian shipping industry and for export,they have already won an export order worth 100 million dollars for commercial vessles.

the focus of the indian navy in feature will be advanced stealth technology and uuv's.

[contedicavour]

1) p-15a's would be pretty excellent warships,in all three dimensions of warfare(land,air and sea),besides the firepower of the delhi class in land attack,asw/asuw warfare,these warships will have more advanced radars,the super barak surface to air missile (being jointly developed with israel and claimed to have a range of 70+ kms),it will also incorporate stealth technology.

2)india is very much interested in the russo-italian project based on the lada,the attractive feature of this project is the flexibility that it offers.mdl cannot build the scorpenes fast enough to meet the navy's requirements and hence the need for a second submarine line(india currently operates 3 types of submarines).indian navy would prefer its own sensor suite on the lada ,with italian designed aip based on the german fuel cells,indigenous batteries etc.the indigenous sonar has been found to be superior to the ones used on the latest variant of the kilo class(meant for export),and have been retrofitted on the indian kilo's the indigenous batteries have also found their way in the kilo's.

3)su33 would be excellent ,but can it be filled on the gorshkov?can enough of them be carried on board the gorshkov to maintain a powerfull force and a reserve?these were the questions faced by the indian navy when they evaluated the su33,mig29k and the rafale for the gorshkov?they found that the su33 was too heavy and occupied too much space to be used effectively from the gorshkov,also the mig29 offers commonality with the indian airforce mig29's and hence the mig29k's were selected.

Thanks for your interesting assessment.
I still have a few remarks though :

> the super Barak would still have too short a range vs the SM-2 III, Aster 30, SA-N-6 and the new Chinese missiles on Type 052C DDGs. What about radar technology, would it be comparable with Aegis or even Empar ?

> I am happy that the Indian Navy is interested in the Russian-Italian project on AIP SSKs. I am however a bit surprised since the project - last time I read about it - concerned a relatively small SSK, smaller than Lada anyway. I imagine India can adapt it and build it locally, but I'd like more news if you have any.

cheers

[contedicavour]

I feel that although p-15A would be a good and cost effective platform in the short term I feel its hull design is dated. India very urgently needs to expand and modernise its ship building facilities. Before the last of The P-15A are commisioned India needs to start another line of more modern Destroyers in Shipyards other than Mdl . And I feel Admiral MadhvendraSinghs stated requirements for amphibious vessels were very modest. although India has a fairly impressive surface fleet , Its leaders seem to have grossly neglected both its amphibious and submarine fleet. Very likely Submarine Problem will be rectified but India will sorely lack amphibious capability commensurate with its status and size. By 2020 India must be able to deploy3-4 brigades along with their logistics and support and aim for atleast 2 LHDs along with the proposed LSDs. the Italians and the Spanish who have a far smaller navy compared to India are still retaining and aiming for a much Larger amphibious capability than India eventhough very likely India needs it much more than either of them. Similary Indian Surface fleet is very close to the size of those of Britain and France, but in amphibious capability India is far far behind

It is true that India has a relatively under-sized amphibious force versus the total size of its naval assets. However its LSTs and the second-hand LPD being transferred from the USN are enough vs the currently conceivable missions the Indian Navy could run in the Indian Ocean, wouldn't they ?

cheers

PS : btw I can't agree with your assessment that Italy has "a far smaller navy compared to India" ;) National pride aside, for the moment the 2 navies have 2 carriers each (considering the Gorshkov+ADS vs Cavour+Garibaldi) with a comparable number of Harriers (and tomorrow F-35 vs Mig29K), 4 modern DDGs vs the 3+3(bldg) Indian Delhi DDGs (the Kashins being inferior because of old SA-N-1 SAMs), and 10 modern FFGs (Maestrale today, FREMM tomorrow) vs 9+3(ordered new Talwars)+?(P17 bldg) FFGs for India. True, India has 2+ times more SSKs than Italy and will have SSNs eventually. Still, I suggest you take the "far smaller" out ;)

[kams]

Here is an account of evacuation of Indian/Lankan/Nepalese citizens by Indian Naval ships. One more feather in Indian navy's cap:)

INS Mumbai Dreams (http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/suhasinihaidar/218/16952/ins-mumbai-dreams.html)

[aaaditya]

It is true that India has a relatively under-sized amphibious force versus the total size of its naval assets. However its LSTs and the second-hand LPD being transferred from the USN are enough vs the currently conceivable missions the Indian Navy could run in the Indian Ocean, wouldn't they ?

cheers

PS : btw I can't agree with your assessment that Italy has "a far smaller navy compared to India" ;) National pride aside, for the moment the 2 navies have 2 carriers each (considering the Gorshkov+ADS vs Cavour+Garibaldi) with a comparable number of Harriers (and tomorrow F-35 vs Mig29K), 4 modern DDGs vs the 3+3(bldg) Indian Delhi DDGs (the Kashins being inferior because of old SA-N-1 SAMs), and 10 modern FFGs (Maestrale today, FREMM tomorrow) vs 9+3(ordered new Talwars)+?(P17 bldg) FFGs for India. True, India has 2+ times more SSKs than Italy and will have SSNs eventually. Still, I suggest you take the "far smaller" out ;)

orders have already been placed for 3 additional frigates of the improved talwar class.(you did not mention it in your above list) also for the 8 new p28 stealth corvettes.

[aaaditya]

hey guys indian coast guard has now started to expand,it will set up its 11th station on lakshadweep islands and will also develop the beypore port.

here check out this link:

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IER20060730012209&Page=R&Title=Kerala&Topic=0

Coast Guard unit in Lakshadweep in a year’
Sunday July 30 2006 11:43 IST
KOZHIKODE: The Coast Guard will set up its 11th unit in Lakshadweep, said Coast Guard director general Prabhakaran Paleri while attending a reception accorded to him by the Calicut Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Kozhikode on Saturday.

The unit will be inaugurated in March 2007. “Indian Coast Guard has achieved remarkable growth in a short span of 28 years, compared to the 200-year old American Coast Guard,” opined the director general.

Delivering a lecture on ‘Safeguarding the coastal area’ he said that terrorism has not yet become a serious threat to Kerala.

A discussion on ‘the development of Beypore Port’ was also held. Port director captain Haridas, Chamber president C E Chakkunni and Dr K Moithu were present. A film show depicting the role and functions of Indian Coast Guard was also screened on the occasion.

also check out this link,it contains images of the latest coast guard fast attack craft,the cgs meera behn.

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=24495&n_tit

[ajay_ijn]

gary, i have some doubts

Can you plz tell us about Indians ATV, Nuclear Submarine Project.
As u work in the sub industry

Is India capable of building the reactor, putting it in a Submarine and build Submarine capable enough to Counter Chinese??
India faced lot of technical difficulties with that Reactor

And About Brahmos
Can Brahmos be redesigned to fit it inside a 533mm tube ?
Does it decrease brahmos capability ?

And Finally about New Russian Attack Submarine
India is leading two subs for training and experience.
Do u think those Subs will be free from problems and work well?

[ajay_ijn]

we cant be sure about that,initially it was believed to be based on the russian charlie class ,india had gained working experience on one charlie class of submarine.

however jane sources had mentioned ,that due to extensive russian influence ,the indian submarine resembles the project 885 severodvinsk class ,also israel is believed to be heavily involved in this project.
God knows what its design is based on but this mysterious India project is taking very long time.
But India SSN was first thought to be of 4000 ton later to be 6000 based on some old Russian attack submarine.

Design can be taken from anywhere but this PWR is the main problem

[slim]

I had no intention of offending The Italian Navy. It is a very modern and capable force.What I am reffering to is what Indian Navy will be around 2020 and the vision of Adm Singh. Although The Italian Navy is very impressive I am not very far from the truth if I mean that by 2020 India with its rapidly expanding economy will surpass the Italian Navy greatly with repect to actual tonnage and manpower.However in Quality The Italian Navy will definately be aforce to contend with and relative to Italy's size the Italian Navy is definately very large. but you have to take things in context India is a massive country with very immediate threats and helped by a growing economy its Navy is bound to be a very large one by 2020.I have great respect for the Italian Navy and there was no intention to belittle it. I should have clarified that I was reffering to the 2020 period.

It is true that India has a relatively under-sized amphibious force versus the total size of its naval assets. However its LSTs and the second-hand LPD being transferred from the USN are enough vs the currently conceivable missions the Indian Navy could run in the Indian Ocean, wouldn't they ?

cheers

PS : btw I can't agree with your assessment that Italy has "a far smaller navy compared to India" ;) National pride aside, for the moment the 2 navies have 2 carriers each (considering the Gorshkov+ADS vs Cavour+Garibaldi) with a comparable number of Harriers (and tomorrow F-35 vs Mig29K), 4 modern DDGs vs the 3+3(bldg) Indian Delhi DDGs (the Kashins being inferior because of old SA-N-1 SAMs), and 10 modern FFGs (Maestrale today, FREMM tomorrow) vs 9+3(ordered new Talwars)+?(P17 bldg) FFGs for India. True, India has 2+ times more SSKs than Italy and will have SSNs eventually. Still, I suggest you take the "far smaller" out ;)

[slim]

india will surely have to put in a lot of effort since many of the ships are going to be decomissioned in next few years , since most of the ships are coming from the goi ship building yards they have to go for capacity expansion even if they want to be on the current schedule. i think that since l&T and kirloskar are seriously bulling for production of naval assets less technological needs must be sourced to them <tankers,amphibous crafts,patrol vessels,coast guard ships, corvettes too> and relieve the psu units to concentrate on technologicaly intensive projects like destroyers,frigates,submarines etc. no blue water navy dreams are going to be fullfilled until a country is going to induct more ships then retiring ones on a regular basis, private sector involvement will also increase competition and deliveries will be strictly on shedule. more over it will also give a boost to domestic shipbilding considering that most of the container vessels and tankers of shipping corporation of india are also on decomissionig spree and they need around 100 high capacity vessels even to restore the current stats private sector indian companies can have their share of profits too and maybe in future they could comptete with the big boys of shipbuilding.

You mentioned L&T and kirloskar. Do you no where in India are they going to Build and what type of ships Will they build.

[Grand Danois]

That's funny! thought the names had a Danish flair to them. :D

http://www.larsentoubro.com/about.htm

[kams]

You mentioned L&T and kirloskar. Do you no where in India are they going to Build and what type of ships Will they build.

L&T's ship building is located in Hazira. Here is a link to their venture in to ship building.

Larsentoubro (http://www.larsentoubro.com/news/upload/CYBER-RT/shipbldg.htm)

Mumbai, May 2, 2006: Larsen & Toubro Limited (L&T) has won a key contract for construction of four ships valued at over Rs.440 crores from Zadeko Ship Management CV of the Netherlands. The order marks the formal launch of L&T's venture into shipbuilding. The vessels will be built at a new shipyard that will form part of the Company's state-of-the-art engineering complex at Hazira, Surat.

Production of the ships is scheduled to commence in July, 2006. In line with contemporary global shipbuilding trends, L&T will adopt modular construction and seamless work flow techniques at its shipyard to meet the stringent delivery schedules.
Described in technical terminology as RO-RO/LO-LO semi-submersible, heavy lift container cargo ships, these highly specialized vessels are among the only ones of its kind to be made in India. The vessels have a deadweight capacity of over 8250 tonnes, 17000 cubic metres of cargo hold and can carry 830 TEU of containerized cargo.

L&T's shipyard at Hazira will focus on construction of commercial vessels and warships for the navy as well as the coast guard. The yard will have the capacity to construct high technology vessels of up to 150-metre length and displacement of 20000 tonnes. Further expansion programmes envisage installation of ship lift system for new construction, repairs and refit of ships including defense and paramilitary vessels.


That's funny! thought the names had a Danish flair to them.


The evolution of L&T into the country's largest engineering and construction organizations is among the more remarkable success stories in Indian industry. The company was founded in Bombay (Mumbai) in 1938 by two Danish engineers, Henning Holck-Larsen and Soren Kristian Toubro - both of whom were strongly committed to developing India's engineering talent and enabling it to meet the demands of industry. Beginning with the import of machinery from Europe, L&T rapidly took on engineering and construction assignments of increasing sophistication. Today, the company sets engineering benchmarks in terms of scale and complexity.

Hurray to Danish Spirit..setting up an industry in India in 1938;) and that company is now one of the leading construction and engineering conglomerate.:D

[slim]

L&T's ship building is located in Hazira. Here is a link to their venture in to ship building.

Larsentoubro (http://www.larsentoubro.com/news/upload/CYBER-RT/shipbldg.htm)













Hurray to Danish Spirit..setting up an industry in India in 1938;) and that company is now one of the leading construction and engineering conglomerate.:D


Thank You. Very interesting.

India should work towards the capacity to build atleast 4 additional major warship classes simulataneously in addition its current capacity.
-Atleast one more for Destroyer/Frigate building facility.
- One additional forConventional Submarine
-One for nuclear submarine( It may already have one)
-One for Large amphibious vessels

[tphuang]

Thank You. Very interesting.

India should work towards the capacity to build atleast 4 additional major warship classes simulataneously in addition its current capacity.
-Atleast one more for Destroyer/Frigate building facility.
- One additional forConventional Submarine
-One for nuclear submarine( It may already have one)
-One for Large amphibious vessels
Those shipyards are going to loose a lot of money, if they only have military contracts. ;)

[kams]

Those shipyards are going to loose a lot of money, if they only have military contracts. ;)

Did not bother to read the link I posted, did you??? Had to shoot your mouth off?? L&T's first order is to supply 4 ships to Zadeko Ship Management CV of the Netherlands. Thanks for the financial analysis of L&T. Would you bother to enlighten us mere mortals why they will loose money even if they had to depend on Military contracts? Could you provide us with the break down of Indian Navy's order book for next 20-30 years?
L&T, TATA, Reliance, Kirloskar did not become what they are today by throwing money in to ventures where they will loose money.

[kams]

Ok Mr.Financial Wizard, here are some financial numbers of three State Owned ship building units for 2004-2005.

Mazagon Docks - Proft before tax - Rs. 134 crore
Cochin Ship Yard- Profit Before tax - Rs. 17 Crore
Garden Reach - Profit Before tax -Rs. 50 crore.

Please note that as all these are Govt. owned and operated, they have huge work force and technology may not be very latest. You can expect Pvt. conglomerates like L&T, TATA to be much more efficient. Infact L&T utilizes latest modular construction and construction in enclosed yards to optimal utilization of time and effort. In any case if these state owned shipyards are making profit you think Private companies will be in loss???:unknown

Currently all State owned ship building units are booked solid with orders from Indian Navy. Thats the reason Indian navy ordered 3 Talwar class missile frigates from Russia and thats the reason Indian Govt. has opened Defence sector for select players.

Please feel free to ask for any information (in case you are too busy to look them up yourself) before making such snide uncalled for remarks.

[tphuang]

Did not bother to read the link I posted, did you??? Had to shoot your mouth off?? L&T's first order is to supply 4 ships to Zadeko Ship Management CV of the Netherlands. Thanks for the financial analysis of L&T. Would you bother to enlighten us mere mortals why they will loose money even if they had to depend on Military contracts? Could you provide us with the break down of Indian Navy's order book for next 20-30 years?
L&T, TATA, Reliance, Kirloskar did not become what they are today by throwing money in to ventures where they will loose money.
wow, sounding pretty aggressive, huh?

I was not referring to L&T at all. But you obviously feel the need to jump on me without any kind of proof. It seemed like reading Slim's post, that he was referring to opening up 4 new shipbuilding facilities just for building each of the 4 types of military ship. So, I jokingly said that if that's all they are doing, then those facilities would have some serious problem staying afloat. But you obviously had to butt in. And a reminder that if someone uses a joking smilie, maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously.

[aaaditya]

wow, sounding pretty aggressive, huh?

I was not referring to L&T at all. But you obviously feel the need to jump on me without any kind of proof. It seemed like reading Slim's post, that he was referring to opening up 4 new shipbuilding facilities just for building each of the 4 types of military ship. So, I jokingly said that if that's all they are doing, then those facilities would have some serious problem staying afloat. But you obviously had to butt in. And a reminder that if someone uses a joking smilie, maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously.

actually l and t is considered to be one of the top engineering companies in the world,they are in volved in the field of heavy engineering(specialised equipments),indian nuclear submarine project(powerplant modules and habitability modules),indian submerged missile test platform was built by them,construction engineering(bridges,dams,airports,powerplants etc),shipbuilding(latest capability),information and technology(considered to be amongst the best in india ).

you can call the l and t india's hyundai.

[aaaditya]

Thank You. Very interesting.

India should work towards the capacity to build atleast 4 additional major warship classes simulataneously in addition its current capacity.
-Atleast one more for Destroyer/Frigate building facility.
- One additional forConventional Submarine
-One for nuclear submarine( It may already have one)
-One for Large amphibious vessels

larsen and toubro already has these capabilities.

1)they proposed to the indian navy the amur class of submarines,to built under licence along with kirloskar marine engines limited in west bengal,howver the indian navy is yet undecided,but it is sure that whichever submarine is selected by the indian navy the larsen and toubro will be the second submarine producer.

the facility for manufacturing submarines is already ready but is currently being used for the atv nuclear submarine project ,for which larsen and toubro is responsible in fabricating the powerplant and habitability modules,they also built up a submersible test barge for missile testing,which is used by the indian navy to simulate underwater missile tests.

they are also going to set up a second facility for manufacturing ships in chennai,this facility will specifically focus on light patrol crafts,missile firing catamarans etc.

larsen and toubro is also responsible for providing degaussing solutions for the indian navy.

so we dont realy nead three four shipyards,particularly when a single company has all these capabilities.

what india needs is a conglomerate of top indian companies involed in ship building using their specialised skills.

1)larsen and toubro- heavy engineering and fabrication,ship and submarine design,system integration,project management and weapon systems etc.

2) tata consultancy services-design consultancy and software,software development and testing,combat management and networking system etc.

3) kirloskar marine engines limited-diesel engines,gas turbine engines and fuel
air cells and propellers etc.

3) videocon-electronics .

4) samtel-displays.

5)tata power-weapons systems.

this will serve as a competition for the governement agencies besides improving the quality of ship building in the country.

[aaaditya]

hey guys the fast attack craft batti malv has been commisioned and will be based in andaman and nicobar islands.also grse will construct 10 more vessels of a similiar class but having speeds of upto 35kts for the indian navy .

here check out this link:

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/31warship.htm

Fast attack warship Batti Malv commissioned

July 31, 2006 21:51 IST


Fast attack indigenous warship Batti Malv was commissioned by the Commander-in-Chief of Andaman and Nicobar unified command Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh on Monday.

Speaking at the ceremony, the Vice Admiral said Batti Malv was an 'extremely valuable asset' in the discharge of the role of the unified command structure for maintaining the safety, security and well being of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

"The fact that we are able today to commission a state-of-the-art warship like Batti Malv with indigenous construction, power generation package, weapons and sensors bear eloquent testimony to our nation's technological prowess and the skill of its workforce," he said.

The Rs 64 crore warship is named after one of the islands in the archipelago and took 26 months to be constructed.

It is the third of the series of Bangaram-class high-speed warships and with its 46 metre height was a cost effective platform for patrol and rescue operations at sea with combat capabilities with matching fire power, Rear Admiral (retd) T S Ganeshan, chairman and managing director of Garden Reach Ship Builders and Engineers Shipyard Ltd, Kolkata, which constructed it, said.

The warship's twin engine can achieve a speed of 28 knots, he said.

The Navy has placed orders for ten more fast attack crafts of 35 knots speed with water jets and their construction will start at GRSE, the biggest defence shipyard in the country, by October. The fourth ship INS Baratang was delivered to the Navy on July 28 and would be commissioned next month, he said.

Vice-Admiral Arun Kumar, describing the event as historic, said the naval planners had shown great foresight in supporting an indigenous warship construction programme for over three decades. The move was not only a necessary step towards self reliance, but also led to consequential saving of precious foreign exchange, he added.

[aaaditya]

God knows what its design is based on but this mysterious India project is taking very long time.
But India SSN was first thought to be of 4000 ton later to be 6000 based on some old Russian attack submarine.

Design can be taken from anywhere but this PWR is the main problem

the reactor has been successfully tested on land(at kalpakkam),the reactor containment shell weighing 600 tons and having a 10m diameter was fabricated from titanium by larsen and toubro ,initially they failed due to fabrication problems,but then with russian assistance the problems have been solved and now they are ready.

[kams]

I think Indian Navy's immediate requirement is land based AEW&C platform. They have a serious gap with only upgraded IL-38 (very limited numbers) flying.

Northrop eyes E-2D release (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/08/01/Navigation/177/208211/Northrop+eyes+E-2D+release.html)

[ajay_ijn]

the reactor has been successfully tested on land(at kalpakkam),the reactor containment shell weighing 600 tons and having a 10m diameter was fabricated from titanium by larsen and toubro ,initially they failed due to fabrication problems,but then with russian assistance the problems have been solved and now they are ready.
dude you know Indians and their claims and even their delays.

however if thats true then have they started constructing the submarine?

[kams]

wow, sounding pretty aggressive, huh?

I was not referring to L&T at all. But you obviously feel the need to jump on me without any kind of proof. It seemed like reading Slim's post, that he was referring to opening up 4 new shipbuilding facilities just for building each of the 4 types of military ship. So, I jokingly said that if that's all they are doing, then those facilities would have some serious problem staying afloat. But you obviously had to butt in. And a reminder that if someone uses a joking smilie, maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously.

tphaung,
I owe you an apology. I mis-understood you and did not realize that you were jokingly refering to Slims post. Peace :)

[ajay_ijn]

I think Indian Navy's immediate requirement is land based AEW&C platform. They have a serious gap with only upgraded IL-38 (very limited numbers) flying.

Northrop eyes E-2D release (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/08/01/Navigation/177/208211/Northrop+eyes+E-2D+release.html)
dude u mean naval surveillance Aircraft??
IL-38 is not a AEW Aircraft

[kams]

dude u mean naval surveillance Aircraft??
IL-38 is not a AEW Aircraft

Yep, I meant Maritime Patrol aircraft such as Boeing P-8 MMA. All India has is IL-38, TU 142 and some Dorniers

[contedicavour]

I had no intention of offending The Italian Navy. It is a very modern and capable force.What I am reffering to is what Indian Navy will be around 2020 and the vision of Adm Singh. Although The Italian Navy is very impressive I am not very far from the truth if I mean that by 2020 India with its rapidly expanding economy will surpass the Italian Navy greatly with repect to actual tonnage and manpower.However in Quality The Italian Navy will definately be aforce to contend with and relative to Italy's size the Italian Navy is definately very large. but you have to take things in context India is a massive country with very immediate threats and helped by a growing economy its Navy is bound to be a very large one by 2020.I have great respect for the Italian Navy and there was no intention to belittle it. I should have clarified that I was reffering to the 2020 period.

No issue, don't worry. The Indian Navy is already larger than the Italian Navy in quantitative terms and if the 2020 programme is applied, it will be even bigger in 15 years' time.
The areas where IMHO the Indian Navy will remain behind are :
- SAMs, as Super Barak has a range of 70km vs Aster 30's 120km
- AAW radars, since there are no Aegis, Sampson, Apar or Empar planned
- amphibious warfare (by which I mean LPDs, LPHs, attack aircrafts and helos carried on CVs, such as a F35 and a Mangusta-improved versus MIG29K, and of course marines trained on disembarking from LCAC and helos in hostile territory)
The areas where I believe the Indian Navy will excel will be :
- submarine warfare, offensive and defensive, with a mix of Scorpene, upgraded Kilos with Brahmos, and Amur1850, without even mentioning potential SSNs (leased Akula II or the locally built ones)
- ASUW, with Brahmos and why not Klub missiles

cheers

[ajay_ijn]

No issue, don't worry. The Indian Navy is already larger than the Italian Navy in quantitative terms and if the 2020 programme is applied, it will be even bigger in 15 years' time.
The areas where IMHO the Indian Navy will remain behind are :
- SAMs, as Super Barak has a range of 70km vs Aster 30's 120km
- AAW radars, since there are no Aegis, Sampson, Apar or Empar planned
- amphibious warfare (by which I mean LPDs, LPHs, attack aircrafts and helos carried on CVs, such as a F35 and a Mangusta-improved versus MIG29K, and of course marines trained on disembarking from LCAC and helos in hostile territory)
The areas where I believe the Indian Navy will excel will be :
- submarine warfare, offensive and defensive, with a mix of Scorpene, upgraded Kilos with Brahmos, and Amur1850, without even mentioning potential SSNs (leased Akula II or the locally built ones)
- ASUW, with Brahmos and why not Klub missiles

cheers
not to consider the Aircraft Carriers which give the true Status of Blue water Navy

[slim]

No issue, don't worry. The Indian Navy is already larger than the Italian Navy in quantitative terms and if the 2020 programme is applied, it will be even bigger in 15 years' time.
The areas where IMHO the Indian Navy will remain behind are :
- SAMs, as Super Barak has a range of 70km vs Aster 30's 120km
- AAW radars, since there are no Aegis, Sampson, Apar or Empar planned
- amphibious warfare (by which I mean LPDs, LPHs, attack aircrafts and helos carried on CVs, such as a F35 and a Mangusta-improved versus MIG29K, and of course marines trained on disembarking from LCAC and helos in hostile territory)
The areas where I believe the Indian Navy will excel will be :
- submarine warfare, offensive and defensive, with a mix of Scorpene, upgraded Kilos with Brahmos, and Amur1850, without even mentioning potential SSNs (leased Akula II or the locally built ones)
- ASUW, with Brahmos and why not Klub missiles

cheers


1) I heard in some media snippets about the possibility of the sale of Ageis System to India. Have any concrete steps been taken in that direction.

2) Also there have been speculation that India may be developing a 5th gen fighter with Russia(I am not sure if it has started or it is just a distant possibility .Someone can enlighten me if they have more definite information) Anyway Indian side seemed very keen to have a single engined lighter fighter as opposed to a Russian preference for a heavy two engined fighter. Does that mean India may probably want a Naval variant of the same.

3) In the recent Arms Exhibit in India The Lockheed Martin demonstrated JsF models in Indian colors. So I wonder if that means Indian Navy operating the JSF in the not too distant future. If it is a realistic possibility what timeframe are we looking at for the JSf to get into service with IN. Also Indian naval aviators are currently training in the U.S . It raises possibility of India aquiring western carrier borne fixed wing aircraft.I find it very hard to swalow when I hear Russia does not have the ability to train Indian fixed wing aviators when they themselves field su33 and su25 from their carriers. Someone in Russia must have trained them. But somehow media reports suggest Russia cannot train Indians

If any or all of these projects are indeed in the pipeline it should give a tremendous boost to IN capability.

[aaaditya]

No issue, don't worry. The Indian Navy is already larger than the Italian Navy in quantitative terms and if the 2020 programme is applied, it will be even bigger in 15 years' time.
The areas where IMHO the Indian Navy will remain behind are :
- SAMs, as Super Barak has a range of 70km vs Aster 30's 120km
- AAW radars, since there are no Aegis, Sampson, Apar or Empar planned
- amphibious warfare (by which I mean LPDs, LPHs, attack aircrafts and helos carried on CVs, such as a F35 and a Mangusta-improved versus MIG29K, and of course marines trained on disembarking from LCAC and helos in hostile territory)
The areas where I believe the Indian Navy will excel will be :
- submarine warfare, offensive and defensive, with a mix of Scorpene, upgraded Kilos with Brahmos, and Amur1850, without even mentioning potential SSNs (leased Akula II or the locally built ones)
- ASUW, with Brahmos and why not Klub missiles

cheers

actually indian navy actively considered european radars and aster 15-30 missile systems,there were speculations at one stage that the later variants of the p17 class of stealth vessles will be equipped with them,but nothing much is heard even since the news about super barak came out.

france had made an official offer for the supply of herakles mfr radars afor the indian frigates and corvettes currently under construction with full tot,though not much is known about the status of this deal.

overall iam very eagerly waiting for the commissioning of the first p17 class of frigate ins shivalik ,it will clearly define wether indian went for the european radar -aster combination or the russian ones.

[contedicavour]

actually indian navy actively considered european radars and aster 15-30 missile systems,there were speculations at one stage that the later variants of the p17 class of stealth vessles will be equipped with them,but nothing much is heard even since the news about super barak came out.

france had made an official offer for the supply of herakles mfr radars afor the indian frigates and corvettes currently under construction with full tot,though not much is known about the status of this deal.

overall iam very eagerly waiting for the commissioning of the first p17 class of frigate ins shivalik ,it will clearly define wether indian went for the european radar -aster combination or the russian ones.

I thought (by reading Janes 2006-07) that the P17 had SA-N-12 VLS with Russian radars. Not bad with 35km range and VLS, still not in the same league as apar/empar/sampson etc.
The Herakles (on the Delta FFGs for Singapore) is a downgraded version of Empar, fine if you want to launch Aster 15s, inadequate (range & number of targets you can track) for Aster 30s. However it is, of course, cheaper. French FREMM will use Herakles because AAW is not their priority, however Italian FREMM will use empar since Aster 30s will be available (fitted for not with - formula).

cheers

[contedicavour]

not to consider the Aircraft Carriers which give the true Status of Blue water Navy

Yes undoubtedly. However if you want to have your ADS & ex-Gorshkov at full potential, you'll need better than MIG29K (MIG29SMT for example, or why not F35B :D ). I've seen a post mentioning the possibility of JSF F-35 sale to India some day. That would be great.
Next your carriers would also be better off with AEW assets. Yes you have Russian Helix helos with some AEW, but EH-101 AEW or even something similar to Hawkeye would help.
Last but not least, I would have upgraded the Harriers with BVR capability, but I've seen that the MIG29K programme has total priority and the Harrier upgrade has been cancelled. :( May be some ex UK Sea Harriers would be a good interim buy.

cheers

[aaaditya]

Yes undoubtedly. However if you want to have your ADS & ex-Gorshkov at full potential, you'll need better than MIG29K (MIG29SMT for example, or why not F35B :D ). I've seen a post mentioning the possibility of JSF F-35 sale to India some day. That would be great.
Next your carriers would also be better off with AEW assets. Yes you have Russian Helix helos with some AEW, but EH-101 AEW or even something similar to Hawkeye would help.
Last but not least, I would have upgraded the Harriers with BVR capability, but I've seen that the MIG29K programme has total priority and the Harrier upgrade has been cancelled. :( May be some ex UK Sea Harriers would be a good interim buy.

cheers

indian navy is looking for sea king replacement ,about 18-24 heavy helos are to be procured,cougar and eh101 helos are being looked into,the indian navy also plans to acquire the mistral class with grse-calcutta building them under tot from france.

[aaaditya]

hey guys seems that the construction of the p-28 corvettes has started,these are considered to be india's first completely indigenous warships(with the exception of the propulsion systems).there was initially speculations that these warships would be based on the russian project20385 steregushiy class design,but since then these rumours have been negated by the office of the navy ,who claim that the warships would be of indigenous stealth design,initially 4-6 vessels ar eplanned.

here check out this link:

http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/9th%20report%20of%2014th.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/p-28.htm

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1533352,0008.htm

[contedicavour]

hey guys seems that the construction of the p-28 corvettes has started,these are considered to be india's first completely indigenous warships(with the exception of the propulsion systems).there was initially speculations that these warships would be based on the russian project20385 steregushiy class design,but since then these rumours have been negated by the office of the navy ,who claim that the warships would be of indigenous stealth design,initially 4-6 vessels ar eplanned.

here check out this link:

http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/9th%20report%20of%2014th.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/p-28.htm

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1533352,0008.htm
I've got some trouble with the first link.
Could you tell us something about its armament (Brahmos or Uran for example ? which SAM ?) and if these are replacing older ships or complement the existing corvettes ?

cheers

[aaaditya]

these vessels will complement the existing ones,the armaments will include :

1)8 klub cruise missiles having a range of 220 kms and having antiship,antisubmarine and land attack capabilities.

2)18 barak surface to air missiles- having a range of 10-15 kms.

3)one oto-breda 76mm stealth gun.

4)two indigenous triple torpedoes with the european mu90 eurotorp as the standard torpedo armament,these torpedos i believe have a range of upto 15 kms.

5)2 rbu-6000 asw/asuw rocket cum mortar launcher.


also indian navy will be placing a repeat order of the p17 class of vessels,under project p17a (improved over the existing design).the first of the p-17 class will be inducted from march2007.

[contedicavour]

these vessels will complement the existing ones,the armaments will include :

1)8 klub cruise missiles having a range of 220 kms and having antiship,antisubmarine and land attack capabilities.

2)18 barak surface to air missiles- having a range of 10-15 kms.

3)one oto-breda 76mm stealth gun.

4)two indigenous triple torpedoes with the european mu90 eurotorp as the standard torpedo armament,these torpedos i believe have a range of upto 15 kms.

5)2 rbu-6000 asw/asuw rocket cum mortar launcher.


also indian navy will be placing a repeat order of the p17 class of vessels,under project p17a (improved over the existing design).the first of the p-17 class will be inducted from march2007.

wow call them corvettes ;) Those Klubs are impressive ! Normally Urans would have done the job. It seems your admirals are collecting quite an array of SSMs, Brahmos, Klub, Uran ...

cheers

[aaaditya]

wow call them corvettes ;) Those Klubs are impressive ! Normally Urans would have done the job. It seems your admirals are collecting quite an array of SSMs, Brahmos, Klub, Uran ...

cheers

no indian navy is now standardising to only two missiles ,the klub and brahmos,these missiles will replace the uran and the sea eagle,a small amount of sm70 exocet missiles have been ordered to arm the scorpene submarines,but i believe this is only a temporary measure till we develop the submarine launched version of the brahmos.

[contedicavour]

no indian navy is now standardising to only two missiles ,the klub and brahmos,these missiles will replace the uran and the sea eagle,a small amount of sm70 exocet missiles have been ordered to arm the scorpene submarines,but i believe this is only a temporary measure till we develop the submarine launched version of the brahmos.

Wouldn't it make sense to preserve a lighter system for smaller naval units (corvettes/fast armed crafts such as the Tarantuls) ? Klubs and Brahmos seem to me a bit of an overkill. However, if you can afford it, profit from it !

cheers

[dabrownguy]

Guys theres way too much bs floating around about IN's future plans.
The IN wanted the Aster 15/30 but was offered Barak II. Now the Barak II is in joint development. With out additional boasters the SAM has a range of 80 km. Keeping in mind that PN has air launched Harpoons the range is extended for the IN to 120 km with another boaster. India and Israel are also jointly developing a naval PAR with four panels. Theres a picture of it on the internet. As for INs anti-ship missiles. There is no way the Switchblade will be so easily be replaced by Klub in the air launched role from helecopters, expecially when Dhurv and Seakings aren't large enough. Switchblade will be around for a while along with Sea Eagle. DRDO is working on a light helecopter launched anti-ship missile for both Dhurv and Tejas. Weather it meterializes is another issue. The Klubs that are being used for P-28 might by anti-sub not anti-ship. There also might be chance the defensive weapons suite might be Khastan or by a far stretch, Trishul. Either way its still a kick butt corvette. For the Indian Navy, its all about its Carrier/s. Harriers/Flacrums/Bears/Tejas gives it a long arm and SeaKings/Dhurvs do the same. Thus cutting the need to counter submarines and ships with more submarines and ships.

[aaaditya]

Guys theres way too much bs floating around about IN's future plans.
The IN wanted the Aster 15/30 but was offered Barak II. Now the Barak II is in joint development. With out additional boasters the SAM has a range of 80 km. Keeping in mind that PN has air launched Harpoons the range is extended for the IN to 120 km with another boaster. India and Israel are also jointly developing a naval PAR with four panels. Theres a picture of it on the internet. As for INs anti-ship missiles. There is no way the Switchblade will be so easily be replaced by Klub in the air launched role from helecopters, expecially when Dhurv and Seakings aren't large enough. Switchblade will be around for a while along with Sea Eagle. DRDO is working on a light helecopter launched anti-ship missile for both Dhurv and Tejas. Weather it meterializes is another issue. The Klubs that are being used for P-28 might by anti-sub not anti-ship. There also might be chance the defensive weapons suite might be Khastan or by a far stretch, Trishul. Either way its still a kick butt corvette. For the Indian Navy, its all about its Carrier/s. Harriers/Flacrums/Bears/Tejas gives it a long arm and SeaKings/Dhurvs do the same. Thus cutting the need to counter submarines and ships with more submarines and ships.

the sea eagles have been retired from service,switchblade is currently used.by the way do you have any information on the light weight air launched anti-ship missile?

i believe that the range of the barak can be increased upto 160-180kms with a suitable booster.by the way do you have any idea about the performance of the indo-israeli radar about which you mentioned?

[aaaditya]

hey guys here is an interesting news article on the indian navy's efforts of improvement and its goals.

here check out this link:

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73


Navy to be fully balanced force in next 10 year: Prakash

NEW DELHI, AUG 7 (PTI)
With the proposed induction of Maritime reconaissance aircraft, fighters and new submarines, Navy would be "fully balanced" maritime force to be reckoned with in the next 10 years, Naval Chief Admiral Arun Prakash said today.
"We are back on track on the submarine front. In a few years time we would be back on desired levels for Naval air operations", he said in reference to reopening of submarine building lines at Mazagoan and efforts to acquire more maritime reconaissance aircraft.
He said with the indigenous ship building efforts in the country gaining strides and other ongoing acquisition programmes like aircraft carrier and other force multipliers coming to fruition, the Navy would be an all purpose maritime force to be reckoned with in the next 10 years.
"Though our maritime interests are now all over, anything that happens from the eastern coast of Africa and the straits of Malacca", he said the immediate footprints for the navy was the Indian Ocean area.
In an interview to Armed forces newsletter 'Sanik Samachar', the Naval Chief said Indian navy was no no longer China or Pakistan centric. "We look way beyond. Out Maritime strategies have to take into account matrix of economic interest, military threats and other national interests".

To don such a role, the Naval Chief said naval training was now being given a new strategic orientation aimed at making sailors and officers more technically qualified to handle hi-tech weapon systems and platforms.
"All the officers joining the executive branch would be offered technical degrees like B-Tech, which would be completed during the path of their training with the Navy," Admiral Prakash said.
He said the training exercise would be technologically most modern, relevant to take care of navy's future needs.
On recent controversies of some of his family members being involved in trying to influence naval purchases, the Naval Chief said he had no time to think about such matters. "I always beleive that if you try to something good and big, it affects many. While most of the people would be happy, there would be some who would be unhappy or would try to pick holes", he said. "But, I am happy with the work I am doing", the naval chief concluded.

[contedicavour]

Guys theres way too much bs floating around about IN's future plans.
The IN wanted the Aster 15/30 but was offered Barak II. Now the Barak II is in joint development. With out additional boasters the SAM has a range of 80 km. Keeping in mind that PN has air launched Harpoons the range is extended for the IN to 120 km with another boaster. India and Israel are also jointly developing a naval PAR with four panels. Theres a picture of it on the internet. As for INs anti-ship missiles. There is no way the Switchblade will be so easily be replaced by Klub in the air launched role from helecopters, expecially when Dhurv and Seakings aren't large enough. Switchblade will be around for a while along with Sea Eagle. DRDO is working on a light helecopter launched anti-ship missile for both Dhurv and Tejas. Weather it meterializes is another issue. The Klubs that are being used for P-28 might by anti-sub not anti-ship. There also might be chance the defensive weapons suite might be Khastan or by a far stretch, Trishul. Either way its still a kick butt corvette. For the Indian Navy, its all about its Carrier/s. Harriers/Flacrums/Bears/Tejas gives it a long arm and SeaKings/Dhurvs do the same. Thus cutting the need to counter submarines and ships with more submarines and ships.

From where do the Israelis take their PAR technology ? They don't have it themselves and they are already developing one for India ?? I'm not underestimating their technological capabilities, but I'm surprised India would want to develop such a key component of their AAW capabilities with a country that doesn't have any ship with PAR or medium/long range SAMs... and I'm not even being ironic about the performance of what they have so far (I'm referring to the Saar V corvette off Lebanon).
Once we know more about the radar, we can discuss about whether it's useful or not to extend the Barak II's range with boosters. If the PAR radar for example is comparable to a French Herakles (French FREMM, Singapore Delta frigates) then it cannot support efficiently missiles beyond 50+ km. That's why Aster30s cannot be operated from those naval platforms.
Happy to discuss.

cheers

[kams]

There is lot of speculation that Barak II will be coupled to ELTA MF-STAR radar. Even the range of Barak II (70-80 Km) is also guestimate, I could not find any official reference to range of Barak II.

[dabrownguy]

The Israels already have the technology avaliable. They've intergrated a lot of radars and build many as well. Including Green Pine which has a 500 km search range. All you have to is take land based radars like this and put it on a ship. Even India could do it. Its just easier when you have a Jew though:D.
The source I have is on PDF at this link. The orginal is from Janes.

http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jnws/jnws060531_1_n.shtml
Operating in the E/F-band, MF-STAR uses four fixed-array faces based on a modular tile array architecture (each tile containing 16 Gallium Arsenide transmit/receive modules) to allow for scaleability in the size of the antenna aperture.
According to Elta, MF-STAR is able to initiate tracks against sea-skimming missiles at ranges in excess of 25 km, and out to more than 250 km for a high-flying combat aircraft. EL/M-2248 is also able to provide mid-course guidance for active or semi-active anti-aircraft missiles, and can slave illuminators for semi-active guided missiles.
IAI and India's Defence Research and Development Organisation concluded a deal to jointly develop Barak-8 in New Delhi on 27 January 2006, after almost two years of negotiations.

The joint development programme is valued at about USD330 million, to be split equally between the two countries. Reports from Delhi suggest that Barak-8 and the EL/M-2248 radar will be fitted to the Indian Navy's new Project 15A destroyers.

Perhaps Bob knows something abouth this development. I certianly doubt its a seceret or new.

I'm not sure about the light anti-ship missile from DRDO. But there was and probabiliy is one being designed. You know DRDO. Another 5 years and maybe we'll see a model. Unless the Israels take charge.

[kams]

The joint development programme is valued at about USD330 million, to be split equally between the two countries. Reports from Delhi suggest that Barak-8 and the EL/M-2248 radar will be fitted to the Indian Navy's new Project 15A destroyers.

All talk about ELTA MF-STAR being used for Barak II (or Barak 8...whatever the name may be) is based on inference drawn by media or defence experts based on existing radars of Elta. There is not a single official comment about the radar or the range of Barak II by either DRDO or IAI. However these inferences are logical, MF-STAR is a capable system with a tracking range for high flying Fighter aircraft of 250 km and its performance can easily enhanced.
Here is the link to ELTA MF-Star. Assuming MF-STAR is the radar for BARAK II, could we debate the capability of the system and it's suitability for IN.

[tphuang]

All talk about ELTA MF-STAR being used for Barak II (or Barak 8...whatever the name may be) is based on inference drawn by media or defence experts based on existing radars of Elta. There is not a single official comment about the radar or the range of Barak II by either DRDO or IAI. However these inferences are logical, MF-STAR is a capable system with a tracking range for high flying Fighter aircraft of 250 km and its performance can easily enhanced.
Here is the link to ELTA MF-Star. Assuming MF-STAR is the radar for BARAK II, could we debate the capability of the system and it's suitability for IN.
sorry, but can you post the actual link please?


All you have to is take land based radars like this and put it on a ship.

I don't think it's that simple. Although I do agree that Israel has the technology for naval PAR.

[kams]

sorry, but can you post the actual link please?

oops, sorry, I forgot to post the link.

MF-STAR (http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26584&FolderID=33793&lang=en)

MF-STAR stands for Multi-Function Surveillance Track and Guidance Radar.

[contedicavour]

oops, sorry, I forgot to post the link.

MF-STAR (http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26584&FolderID=33793&lang=en)

MF-STAR stands for Multi-Function Surveillance Track and Guidance Radar.

Thks, it is interesting.
A shame it doesn't specify how many targets it can simultaneously track (and guide if the AAW missiles are semi-active). It claims a range of 250km against aircrafts, though that seems to me medium range, not long range. Radars such as S1850 or even RAN40L have 400+ km range, and EMPAR itself has proven it can track 300 targets 200+km away and guide missiles at them.
I wonder if there's anything more specific around ?

cheers

[Grand Danois]

It reminds me the most of the AN/SPY-1F.

[contedicavour]

It reminds me the most of the AN/SPY-1F.

You mean the one on the Norwegian Nansen FFGs ?
I think you are being a bit too optimistic here, the SPY-1F is the latest evolution of the most sophisticated type of AAW radars around, and Israel would be able to develop a copy so fast ??

cheers