Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[niteshkjain]

This is a gr8 news, we can see the battle field changing
http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?sectionName=&id=37706c5f-bf8a-4906-b11e-3a4d79b4f667&MatchID1=4726&TeamID1=2&TeamID2=3&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1191&PrimaryID=4726&Headline=Indian+Navy+to+get+weapon+of+light&strParent=strParentID

Navy to get weapon of light

The laser is emerging out of the realm of sci-fi to debut in combat. For the first time, coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are planning to unleash the technology’s vast potential to combat the threat of insurgent missile and rocket attacks.

Signalling a revolution in military hardware, India too can grab a slice of that technology with the US proposing to equip the navy’s second-largest warship INS Jalashwa with a new generation laser system that would enable it to blast enemy missiles in the sky.

The new weapon can easily be mounted alongside the Jalashwa’s Phalanx close-in weapon system for shooting down incoming targets at the speed of light, claimed US defence firm Raytheon that has found military application for the laser. The Phalanx currently uses advanced radar and computer technology to locate, identify and direct a stream of 20 mm armour-piercing projectiles to the target.

Admiral Walter F. Doran (retd), head of Raytheon’s Asia business, told HT at the Farnborough international airshow that the laser system slaved to the Phalanx would significantly enhance the Jalashwa’s defence capabilities to decimate incoming threats. Installed on all US combatant ships, the Phalanx provides a warship last-chance defence against anti-ship missiles and close-in-air and surface threats that may have penetrated other fleet defences.

The reason British MoD and US military want to equip their forces with laser power is the obvious advantages it enjoys over bullets — the laser can shoot forever as long as there is electricity.

The laser discharges energy beams to destroy targets. Raytheon’s chief of directed energy systems Mike Booen said this new breed of weaponry, labeled “directed-energy weapons”, could be adopted for ground, air and sea warfare. Land-based Phalanx systems are on the verge of being deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The laser has already been tested for its capability to destroy 60 mm mortars.

[aaaditya]

This is a gr8 news, we can see the battle field changing
http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?sectionName=&id=37706c5f-bf8a-4906-b11e-3a4d79b4f667&MatchID1=4726&TeamID1=2&TeamID2=3&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1191&PrimaryID=4726&Headline=Indian+Navy+to+get+weapon+of+light&strParent=strParentID

Navy to get weapon of light

The laser is emerging out of the realm of sci-fi to debut in combat. For the first time, coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are planning to unleash the technology’s vast potential to combat the threat of insurgent missile and rocket attacks.

Signalling a revolution in military hardware, India too can grab a slice of that technology with the US proposing to equip the navy’s second-largest warship INS Jalashwa with a new generation laser system that would enable it to blast enemy missiles in the sky.

The new weapon can easily be mounted alongside the Jalashwa’s Phalanx close-in weapon system for shooting down incoming targets at the speed of light, claimed US defence firm Raytheon that has found military application for the laser. The Phalanx currently uses advanced radar and computer technology to locate, identify and direct a stream of 20 mm armour-piercing projectiles to the target.

Admiral Walter F. Doran (retd), head of Raytheon’s Asia business, told HT at the Farnborough international airshow that the laser system slaved to the Phalanx would significantly enhance the Jalashwa’s defence capabilities to decimate incoming threats. Installed on all US combatant ships, the Phalanx provides a warship last-chance defence against anti-ship missiles and close-in-air and surface threats that may have penetrated other fleet defences.

The reason British MoD and US military want to equip their forces with laser power is the obvious advantages it enjoys over bullets — the laser can shoot forever as long as there is electricity.

The laser discharges energy beams to destroy targets. Raytheon’s chief of directed energy systems Mike Booen said this new breed of weaponry, labeled “directed-energy weapons”, could be adopted for ground, air and sea warfare. Land-based Phalanx systems are on the verge of being deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The laser has already been tested for its capability to destroy 60 mm mortars.

i wonder what benefit such a system would serve on the jalashwa,it would be more usefull on pricipal surface combatants such as destroyers and aircraft carriers.

[niteshkjain]

i wonder what benefit such a system would serve on the jalashwa,it would be more usefull on pricipal surface combatants such as destroyers and aircraft carriers.

May be it is beginning of a sell for standardizing IN towards phanlax and this new weapon as close in defense :)

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news here,the next batch of seaman have completed their training at ins chilka and have joined into active service.

here is the link and the article:

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=9&theme=&usrsess=1&id=214713

Sea warriors of INS Chilka ready to serve country
Statesman News Service
INS CHILKA, July 20: As many as 1244 trainees, who have become confident and disciplined sea warriors after undergoing a rigorous basic training curriculum for about 24 weeks, successfully passed out from here yesterday. They included 965 Senior Secondary Recruits (SSRs), 123 Matric and Non-Martic Recruits (MR/NMRs), 131 Naviks (General Duty) and 23 Naviks (Domestic Branch) of the Indian Navy and Coast Guard.
The passing-out parade was reviewed by Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha, AVSM, NM & BAR, Controller Personnel Services IHQ (MOD) Navy. Commodore MVS Kumar, VSM Naval-Officer-in-charge Orissa and Commanding Officer, INS Chilka was the conducting officer for the parade.
Among the passing out trainees, Shankar Singh, SSR ,No 217784 R was awarded for his performance in overall aggregate for academics, service subjects and outdoor activities and he received the Chief of the Naval Staff Rolling Trophy and Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Southern Naval Command Gold Medal. Rajgopalan B, SSR, 218345 R was adjudged the Second in Overall Order of Merit and was awarded the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Southern Naval Command silver medal. Mandeep SSR, 218158 R stood third in overall merit and received the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Southern Naval Command Bronze medal.
Anu Kiran, NVK (GD), 06024 S was adjudged the best All Round NVK (GD), for which he received the Director General Coast Guard Rolling Trophy. Rameshwar Dwivedi, NMR, 400286 T was adjudged Best all Round in overall aggregate for academics, service subjects and outdoor activities and received the Chief of the Naval Staff Rolling Trophy and Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Southern Naval Command Gold Medal. Vinay kumar Chelluri MR, 400325 W was adjudged the Second in Overall Order of Merit and was awarded the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Southern Naval Command silver medal.
These passed-out trainees will be deputed to various training schools for professional courses, which will gear them to man frontline ships, submarines and air squadrons of the Indian Navy and Coast Guard. Apart from regular class room instructions, the trainees were imparted training in outdoor and waterborne activities to develop physical stamina, strength, esprit-de-corps and camaraderie. The trainees are also exposed to various adventure activities like Route March, Sailing Expedition to Rambha and Chilka Lake Mouth, Outdoor Camps, Weapons Firing, Jal Tarang and Lake Swimming. Regimental aspects of training were also imbibed in them through Drill, Cross Country, Seamanship and Troop games.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interetsing news ,

italian company finmecanica is manufacturing 76mm guns for indian naval and coast guard vessels ,and also hopes to sell patrol aircrafts to the navy and the coast guard as well as the c-27j spartan aircrafts to the border security force.

here is the link and the article:

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=590379


Eyeing India whose annual defence spending is expected to touch a whopping USD 10 billion in the next five years, an Italian defence major has announced plans to focus on the subcontinent from next year by forging tie ups with local companies.
"We are extending our presence both commercially and in terms of production to high potential markets and India will be our focus area in the coming years beginning 2009," Finmeccanica's chairman and chief executive officer Pier Francesco Guarguaglini told PTI here.
"Where possible and necessary, we plan to do this largely through local and international partnerships," Guarguaglini said, when asked about the likely 50 per cent offsets clause in India's to-be-announced Defence Procurement Plan-2008.
"By integrating our technological and product excellence with that of other companies, we will be able to increase our commercial opportunities, reduce risks and investments, and speed up time to market our products," he emphasised.
In fact, Finmeccanica has a large presence in India, with nine of the 15 offices and production facilities in Asia alone based in the sub-continent. Whereas, neighbouring China had just three offices and facilities.
"India is certainly a major market for Finmeccanica in the defence and aerospace field, which are our company's two pillars. The third pillar, of course, is defence electronics," Finmeccanica's chief operating officer Giorgio Zappa said.
"We are not in India for any short-term relationships. We are looking at long-term benefits," Zappa added.
Already, Finmeccanica has a major role in the defence and aerospace sector in India in the form of tie-ups with Defence Public Sector Undertakings.
Finmeccanica was working with the Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) in the production of the 76mm guns under licence for some radar parts and in transportation market.
It was also collaborating with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) on building of radars for the Air Traffic Control of airports and Defence airbases. Work was also on jointly with bluechip Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in the aerospace sector, as also with the Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) in the field of torpedoes and laser missiles.
In the private sector, Finmeccanica had signed a memorandum of understanding with Mahindras and discussion for a similar tie-up with Tatas was in progress.
The Italian major was also working on joint ventures to buy out certain companies, all within the limitations and restrictions imposed by the Indian government, according to Finmeccanica's India country head Paola Girasole.
"We are awaiting some relaxation in the foreign direct investment limits of 26 per cent from the Indian government. We are not here only to sell, but also to buy," Girasole said. India is already considering a proposal to increase the FDI limits in the Defence sector to 49 per cent.
Finmeccanica was extending support to the Seaking helicopters and was building Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) C27J for the Border Security Force. Incidentally, C27J was also sold to the US last year.
In the future, Finmeccanica was looking at opportunities in India in the form of the maritime patrol aircraft for which it would place its aircraft that were in use with the Italian coast guard at present.

[StevoJH]

Is procurement funded completely seperatably from the normal defense budget in India? Just wondering because i dont see how india could maintain the military it does, from a budget that is less then half of what australia pays annually on the RAN, RN and Army.

[swerve]

Is procurement funded completely seperatably from the normal defense budget in India? Just wondering because i dont see how india could maintain the military it does, from a budget that is less then half of what australia pays annually on the RAN, RN and Army.

That $10 billion is a journalists figure. The overall defence budget is about $26.5 billion this year, & as national definitions differ, that may not include exactly the same as Australias. Maybe $12 billion for equipment alone.

A discussion of the budget, & what is & isn't in it - How much really is indias defence budget? (http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-much-really-is-indias-defence.html)

If Ajai Shukla is right, spending on the NATO definition is likely to be about $33.5 bn this FY.

[kams]

Is procurement funded completely seperatably from the normal defense budget in India? Just wondering because i dont see how india could maintain the military it does, from a budget that is less then half of what australia pays annually on the RAN, RN and Army.

Procurement funding is part of actual defence budget, falls under the head of Capital budget. Pay, Training, spares etc come from Defence Revenue budget, pension comes froma different budget head, separate from Defence budget.

Look up the revenue part of budget and the Pension fund, compare with that of Australia, you will know the answer.

[aaaditya]

some defence procurement under the heading capital equipment recieve extra budgetary allocation(for example procurement of su-30mki,acquisition of new radars etc),some classified projects like the atv nuclear submarine project recieve special funding which is not shown in the regular defence budget.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here,indian navy is to acquire upto 37 maritime surveillance helicopters.

here check out this link and article:

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1585748

Indian Navy to buy 37 anti-sub choppers

The ministry has finalised global tenders to acquire troop carrying and anti-submarine helicopters as well as to upgrade its fleet of Sea King and Kamov-28 helicopters

New Delhi: The Indian Navy is all set to strengthen its air fleet by acquiring 26 Sea King anti-submarine and troop carrying helicopters and 11 Kamov-28 choppers.

The Defence Ministry will soon issue the request for proposal (RFP) to procure these 37 anti-submarine helicopters. The contract for choppers is worth Rs.14, 500 million

The ministry has finalised global tenders to acquire troop carrying and anti-submarine helicopters as well as to upgrade its fleet of Sea King and Kamov-28 helicopters, a senior naval officer said.

He also said that the delivery of 12 single-seat MiG-29K and 4 two-seat MiG-29KUB would start by the year-end. They will be later deployed on the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier being refitted in Russia.

The first batch of four aircraft for the Navy is likely to fly into the naval air station at Goa.

The officer also said that the Navy is also looking for its own Airborne Early Warning Aircraft.

The navy operates 14 Sea King and 12 Kamov anti-submarine helicopters. In addition, the Sea Kings are also used for reconnaissance, search and rescue operations, and for ferrying personnel and supplies.

Meanwhile, in a major drive to modernise the armed forces and expand aviation wings of the Services, the Defence Ministry today issued a RFP to procure 197 helicopters. The proposed procurement is worth Rs.30, 000 million.

The armed forces will modernise their helicopter fleet by 2010 by replacing the age-old Cheetah and Chetak, which have been in service for last 40 years.

[ASFC]

They surely cannot mean 26 new (well new to India) Seakings surely? Unless a journo has made a mistake and they want 26 helicopters similar to the Seaking?

Where would they get 26 half-decent Seakings from?

[aaaditya]

They surely cannot mean 26 new (well new to India) Seakings surely? Unless a journo has made a mistake and they want 26 helicopters similar to the Seaking?

Where would they get 26 half-decent Seakings from?

he has definitely made a mistake, india intends to upgrade its 26 sea king helicopters,while acquiring 37 new helicopters,the helicopters likely to be evaluated are the merlin,cougar,nh-90 and us helicopters.

i have no idea about any russian helicopters available besides the ka-32 in which the indian navy is not interested.

i believe that the nh-90 is the favourite,while the air force is inteersted in acquiring the cougar,i believe both requirements would be merged to ensure a common platform for both the services.

[Salty Dog]

It does make more sense to replace the Seakings with newer models. The Brazilian Navy is replacing their Seakings with SH-60 Seahawks.

[kay_man]

It does make more sense to replace the Seakings with newer models. The Brazilian Navy is replacing their Seakings with SH-60 Seahawks.

that would mean depleting the airwing strenght to dangerously low numbers at a time when they need more.
instead upgrading the current aircraft and simultaneously adding new helos (thus beefing up the airwing) makes more sense if you ask me.
the sea kings can be replaced later on when there are sufficient nos. of other helos available for use.

[Salty Dog]

that would mean depleting the airwing strenght to dangerously low numbers at a time when they need more.
instead upgrading the current aircraft and simultaneously adding new helos (thus beefing up the airwing) makes more sense if you ask me.
the sea kings can be replaced later on when there are sufficient nos. of other helos available for use.

New acquisition airframes will replace those already in service. To upgrade aircraft, you have to take current aircraft out of service anyway, so why not just leave those active until the new ones arrive? I do not see a reduction in numbers with this scenario. You already mentioned this.

The H-3 airframe is getting very old and parts, training, simulators, etc will mean higher operating costs. Best for the IN to get new models. Without having to maintain operational aircraft carriers during the next few years, the IN should have some $$$ to spend.

[niteshkjain]

So the klub works, good news indeed

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080729/115138213.html

Indian submarine to join navy after delayed refit in Russia
12:09 | 29/ 07/ 2008

ST. PETERSBURG, July 29 (RIA Novosti) - The INS Sindhuvijay diesel-electric submarine will set sail for India on August 5 to rejoin the Indian navy after an extensive overhaul at a shipyard in northern Russia, the company said on Tuesday.

The Project 877EKM Kilo-class submarine had been undergoing a refit at the Zvezdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk since 2005.

The overhaul was delayed for six months due to the unacceptable performance of its new SS-N-27 Club-S cruise missiles. In six consecutive pre-delivery test firings in September - November 2007, the Club missiles failed to find their targets and India refused to accept the delivery until all the problems had been fixed.

The Club-S subsonic cruise missile is designed for launch from a 533 mm torpedo tube, or a vertical launch tube. It has a range of 160 nautical miles (about 220 km). It uses an ARGS-54 active radar seeker and Glonass satellite and inertial guidance.

The new trials were completed in mid-July and were successful.

Sindhuvijay is the 4th Indian navy submarine to have been refitted at the Zvyozdochka shipyard.

The upgrade program also involved a complete overhaul of the submarine, including its hull structure, as well as improved control systems, sonars, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The upgrades reportedly cost about $80 million.

Russia's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines have gained a reputation as extremely quiet boats, and have been purchased by China, India, Iran, Poland, Romania and Algeria.

[tphuang]

So the klub works, good news indeed

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080729/115138213.html

Indian submarine to join navy after delayed refit in Russia
12:09 | 29/ 07/ 2008

ST. PETERSBURG, July 29 (RIA Novosti) - The INS Sindhuvijay diesel-electric submarine will set sail for India on August 5 to rejoin the Indian navy after an extensive overhaul at a shipyard in northern Russia, the company said on Tuesday.

The Project 877EKM Kilo-class submarine had been undergoing a refit at the Zvezdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk since 2005.

The overhaul was delayed for six months due to the unacceptable performance of its new SS-N-27 Club-S cruise missiles. In six consecutive pre-delivery test firings in September - November 2007, the Club missiles failed to find their targets and India refused to accept the delivery until all the problems had been fixed.

The Club-S subsonic cruise missile is designed for launch from a 533 mm torpedo tube, or a vertical launch tube. It has a range of 160 nautical miles (about 220 km). It uses an ARGS-54 active radar seeker and Glonass satellite and inertial guidance.

The new trials were completed in mid-July and were successful.

Sindhuvijay is the 4th Indian navy submarine to have been refitted at the Zvyozdochka shipyard.

The upgrade program also involved a complete overhaul of the submarine, including its hull structure, as well as improved control systems, sonars, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The upgrades reportedly cost about $80 million.

Russia's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines have gained a reputation as extremely quiet boats, and have been purchased by China, India, Iran, Poland, Romania and Algeria.

It's interesting that the Chinese ones have also been reporting success recently. I guess they've finally fixed most of the problems. It still doesn't sound anywhere close to the world-beater missile that it's been advertised as.

[niteshkjain]

It's interesting that the Chinese ones have also been reporting success recently. I guess they've finally fixed most of the problems. It still doesn't sound anywhere close to the world-beater missile that it's been advertised as.

This news article might be of interest:

Is china is also getting Club-S?

http://outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=594320

India to acquire underwater land attack missiles

NEW DELHI, JULY 31 (PTI)
India is on the verge of acquiring a strategic capability to strike land targets thousands of miles from its shores by inducting the Russian underwater launched Club-S subsonic cruise missiles.

The missiles will come armed in early August on Indian Navy's new series of upgraded Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhuvijay, according to Naval sources here.

Sindhuvijay will be the first of Kilo-class submarines to be fitted with these land attack versions of the new breaking technology Club-S cruise missiles, which have a flight range of 275 nautical miles.

"The high-precision missile can be launched from standard torpedo tubes from a depth of 35 to 40 meters," Naval sources said.

Sindhuvijay is the fourth Indian Navy's Kilo-class submarine that has been overhauled at Zvezdochka shipyard in northern Russia. Besides the land attack version, the subs are also coming armed with 3M-54EI anti-ship cruise missiles.

Labelled by NATO as one of the quietest submarines in the world, the upgraded Kilo-class subs have undergone extensive changes in the hull as well as getting improved control systems, sonars, new electronic warfare systems and an integrated weapon control system.

The Club-S missiles are new technological weapons still under development in Russia. According to Russian Naval experts, they are simultaneously being fitted in new series of submarines.

Indian Navy signed a 80 million dollar contract with Russia in 2001 to retrofit its entire fleet of ten Kilo-class submarines to enable them for firing Club-S cruise missiles.

India is also asking the Russians to change the design of Kilo-class submarines to undertake test firing of its indegenious underwater launched supersonic Brahmos cruise missiles.

Sindhuvijay was to scheduled be delivered in December last year but the Navy refused to take possession saying that new cruise missiles failed to find their targets in six consecutive test firings in September and November.

"But extensive new trials conducted in mid-July were perfect," Russian sources said.

Naval experts have described the Club-S missiles as "the most versatile weapons" with the capability of swimming out of the sea as well as vertical launch.

The new missiles use an ARGS-5 active radar seeker, new Russian Glosnass satellite and inertial guidance.

Naval sources said Sindhuvijay will start sailing from the Russian shipyard located close to the White sea on August 5 and dock at Western Naval Command base in Mumbai a week later.

Russia Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines have gained a reputation as being extremely quiet vessels and have become part of navies in India, China, Iran, Poland and Alergia.

[niteshkjain]

RUSSIA'S OFFER OF IMPROVED AMUR CLASS SUBMARINES WITH BRAHMOS MUST BE CONSIDERED SERIOUSLY, what u say guys?
http://www.indiadefenceupdate.com/news130.html
The spot light is shining on Indian Navy's choice for its second critical multi billion dollar indigenous submarine building programme. The HDW scandal of the 80s had put a halt to India's submarine building in Mazagon Docks Ltd, for no fault of the Navy. An excellent submarine building establishment which had been built up at the East Yard of the Mazagon Docks Ltd by 1985, had to be disbanded after two HDW-IKL 1500 ton design subs, had been successfully commissioned. An innocuous telegram from India's Ambassador in Germany, inquiring if the 7.5% commission was to be paid for the 6th and 7th submarines as for the first four, set in motion a CBI witch hunt with political cover ups, and finally died a natural death only in 2006. But India's ambitions to build submarines in numbers were disrupted. In the interregnum the Navy acquired 10 double decked Kilo class boats, including two on barter payments from the erstwhile Soviet Union, between 1986 and 2000. The boats had to be routinely sent back to Russia for mid life refits and conversion to fire Klub missiles at great cost to the exchequer. An attempt has been made to refit the first Kilo class at the Hindustan Shipyard Ltd Vishakapatnam but expertise has been lacking. For such specialised refits a nation needs to possess its own submarine building facilities and the Navy's 30 year submarine building programme envisages just that.

THE SCORPENE SCANDAL

Wisely ten years ago, the Government sanctioned a two line 30 year submarine building plan in the form of joint ventures, and it was envisaged India would become an exporter of submarines. IN's submarine arm rightly clamoured for a submarine centric Navy, but was invariably over ruled by the stronger aircraft carrier lobby. Though two aircraft carriers have been ordered at an estimated cost of over $ 4.5 bill only one submarine line, the 6 Scorpene project was sanctioned in 2005 after much dilly dallying. The project with tube launched Exocet missiles is being executed by the French Armaris/DCNS and Spanish-Navantia combine at a cost of $ 3 bill in the congested yard at Mazagon Docks Ltd. The first Scorpene has already fallen back in its building schedule by one year, and may l roll out in 2013, as of now A legal charge of wrong doing in the deal by Transparency International which is headed by a former Navy Chief who should not be doubted and probably knows it all, still breathes in Delhi's High Court, keeping naval officers in the project in NHQ occupied in courts. The Navy desperately does not want to see another HDW debacle and should not. Another former Naval Chief, whose nephew was an arms dealer (and is surprisingly untraceable) who signed the contract has also not indicated what this is all about so that the matter can be closed. And of course the son of another Naval Chief who is one of India's best known arms dealer is involved as he was representing HDW it is clear from the media articles and was oppsiong the Scorpene deal. Some other officers have been cashiered in what is the famous War Room Leak and former Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee a sharp operator probably knows it all too.

Concurrently the Navy has begun the bids for the second line, and Spain's Navantia S-80A, HDW's 214, Russia's Amur class, DCNS French Super Scorpene and an Italian offer are on the files for selection. All bidders have confirmed they will be able to install a plug of 4/8 under water vertically launched missiles of the BrahMos variety. Incidentally Turkey has swiftly completed a similar exercise and as per their Defence Minister Vecdi Gonul, Turkish Navy has settled for the Kiel-based Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH(HDW), and its British partner, Marine Force International, over France's DCNS and Spain's Navantia SA. Negotiations are being finalised for the euro 2.5 billion ($4US billion) deal for 6 boats. The vessels would be built in the Golcuk naval shipyard, near Istanbul, and the first submarine would be delivered in 2015. This deal should give insights to Indian planners on the time schedule and costs for delivery, but it needs airing that India has silently acquired much unreported indigenous submarine building skills in its classified ATV nuclear submarine project, which needs to be harnessed and unleashed. It is time the veil of secrecy is lifted.

As of writing the Indian Navy has a depleting conventional operational submarine fleet. As a thumb rule at any given time only 60% of a submarine fleet is operational for war patrols. From its pre eminent strength of 21 underwater killer submarines, which included the nuclear Charlie class boat INS Chakra in 1988, India today has only 10 aging Kilo class and 4 HDW diesel boats some reaching end of their war patrol operational life, at a time when the Navy aspires for 'Blue Water capability'. China is witnessing the dramatic rise of the PLA(Navy)'s large submarine fleet, reported earlier on this site, which Indian planners need to heed. India's nuclear doctrine also includes the caveat of "no first use " and calls for a Triad in which India's Navy is expected to provide for India's nuclear deterrence from the sea, which in fact is true deterrence. India's Sukhanya class OPVs are being modified to fire the 300 km Dhanush which DRDO claims is nuclear capable, but it would be a folly to arm surface ships with nuclear war heads in this day and age for deterrence, as they would be targeted, tracked and criticised.

INDIA'S NUCLEAR SUBMARINE AMBITIONS ARE RUSSIA SUPPORTED

India's Navy will acquire the 9,000 ton Akula nuclear Project 971 boat christened INS Chakra with out VLS capability next year. The boat's reactor had gone critical in June this year and trials have begun at the Amur yard and Indian Navy has trained its key crew and appointed an Inspector General Vice Admiral to oversee nuclear submarine safety at NHQ. Concurrently a large ATV team of DRDO and BARC/Kalpakam research scientists, some 100 naval officers and many more technicians directly under the Prime Minister's Office direction, with Russian help and enriched uranium so supplied, have been struggling for the last 15 years and have installed an indigenous hybrid 90MW Pressure Water Reactor (PWR) built with Russian and other help for the nuclear submarine at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) at Vishakapatnam called the Advanced Technology Vehicle. The project is still kept under semi wraps and it is estimated over $ 1 bill have been spent, but its target dates are now being pushed for launch. There is every indication the hull will be married and launched latest by early next year as many challenges to weld the sections have been overcome. Even in Germany when HDW was building India's submarine one section could not be welded. Hence when this maiden venture succeeds and India's ATV Captain reports from sea he is under way on nuclear power it will truly be an achievement, the nation can be proud of. DRDO is confident they will be able to arm the boat with indigenous 700km under water launched, nuclear capable missiles. Import of missiles with ranges longer than 300km is prohibited under the Missile Technology Control Regime, and India strictly follows the edict.

The Government has to appreciate that the Russians who have supplied the BrahMos missiles have been quick to have grasped India's needs, for its second line of submarines, to make it a win- win situation. Today two front line units of the Indian Navy are BrahMos ready and the future navy's large platforms including INS Vikramaditya( Gorshkov), the Type 15As and all the Kashins will have the supersonic BrahMos capability. This is where the Russian Amur submarine should score in India's selection for the second line. It is not western in origin, which tap can be shut off as was during the sanctions in the past, the Amur has commonalities with India's ATV which is being built with Russian help on the East Coast, and has many Indian suppliers. KSB Pumps, Larsen and Tubro Ltd, Walchand Industries , Bharat Electricals Ltd, Godrej Tatas, Jindal and such are therefore poised to become suppliers for the Amur project. The Russians have carried out tests to launch the BrahMos in an equivalent mock up of a submarine and had earlier offered the elongated hump backed Amur 1650 ton submarine to the Indian Navy. The Amur building programme has been on offer for over five years and discussions to build the boats in India at Hazira by Larsen and Tubro had also been conducted as the second line of construction after the Scorpene deal with Armaris was signed. Larsen is also setting up a shipyard on the East Coast nat Tuttapuli near Ennore and Indian Navy needs such new yards in numbers for its building programmes. The Amur can fill many bills.

There are various camps and foreign suppliers pushing for the second line of submarine building, now made famous by the Suresh Nanda and Naval War Room leak cases, but the final decision should be taken in the national interest, now so much the flavour of our times with the 123 Nuclear deal. One camp argues that Indian Navy look at the Amur offer seriously for all its commonality and capabilities with the Kilo and ATV and long trusted ties with Russia, and others who claim that the western technology is better. These issues can be technologically weighted and proved. Some in the Navy who have designed the Type 75 Scorpene with patience and effort, would like to see their efforts fructify along western lines and are ready to vilify the Russian's 'up start offer', which is reportedly cheaper. The swords are out for the $ 3 bill plus second line of submarine construction for the Indian Navy, and of course with elections round the corner, sweeteners will also be on offer, but the second line of submarine building will be a critical decision for India's maritime ambitions.

[niteshkjain]

guys check this:

http://www.ptinews.com/pti\ptisite.nsf/0/5B8026A017FDA7DF652574A100239DFC?OpenDocument

New Delhi, Aug 10 (PTI) With India's aspiration to operate a nuclear submarine likely to be fulfilled next year with Russian-made Akula set to join the fleet, the Indian Navy is pitching for a submarine-launched nuclear missile to boost the nation's deterrence capabilities.
"With nuclear proliferation posing a greater threat along with Weapons of Mass Destruction, our unilateral policy of no-first-use necessitates that India possesses a credible and survivable nuclear deterrent including submarine-launched," Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta said yesterday while delivering a lecture on Navy's vision for the future.

India had in February this year tested a submarine-launched ballistic missile for the first time that would take another three years to be fully operational.

After a delay, Akula nuclear-powered submarine is likely to join service with Indian Navy next year, Mehta said, pointing out that the Navy would basically use the Russian-made submarine for training in personnel before they get to operate the indigenous nuclear-powered submarine that is under secret construction at the Mazagaon Docks in Mumbai.

"Though it is an operational submarine, Akula will be basically used for training Naval operators before they get to operate our indigenous nuclear-powered submarine," the Navy chief said.

A DRDO project, the indigenous nuclear-powered submarine project, codenamed Advanced Technology Vehicle, is said to be well set for sea trials two years from now. PTI

[kay_man]

guys check this:

http://www.ptinews.com/ptiptisite.nsf/0/5B8026A017FDA7DF652574A100239DFC?OpenDocument

New Delhi, Aug 10 (PTI) With India's aspiration to operate a nuclear submarine likely to be fulfilled next year with Russian-made Akula set to join the fleet, the Indian Navy is pitching for a submarine-launched nuclear missile to boost the nation's deterrence capabilities.
"With nuclear proliferation posing a greater threat along with Weapons of Mass Destruction, our unilateral policy of no-first-use necessitates that India possesses a credible and survivable nuclear deterrent including submarine-launched," Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta said yesterday while delivering a lecture on Navy's vision for the future.

India had in February this year tested a submarine-launched ballistic missile for the first time that would take another three years to be fully operational.

After a delay, Akula nuclear-powered submarine is likely to join service with Indian Navy next year, Mehta said, pointing out that the Navy would basically use the Russian-made submarine for training in personnel before they get to operate the indigenous nuclear-powered submarine that is under secret construction at the Mazagaon Docks in Mumbai.

"Though it is an operational submarine, Akula will be basically used for training Naval operators before they get to operate our indigenous nuclear-powered submarine," the Navy chief said.

A DRDO project, the indigenous nuclear-powered submarine project, codenamed Advanced Technology Vehicle, is said to be well set for sea trials two years from now. PTI

Awsome news !!. But how many are we going to get?
previously i had heard rumours about getting 3 akulas.

[2S1]

Awsome news !!. But how many are we going to get?
previously i had heard rumours about getting 3 akulas.

The deal is reminiscent of the Indian loan of a Soviet Charlie Class back in the 1990s.

Speculation centres on a 10 year loan of 1 Akula, the 2006-launched Nerpa being the possible SSN selected. Jane's Fighting Ships claims the sub will be named Chakra.

It will surely provide excellent training and experience for the eventual ATV.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,great news here ,it seems that the indian navy has decided to go for the p-8i mma aircraft,the price negotiation commitee has now submitted its report.

heer is the link and the article:

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/contentView.do?contentId=4369268&programId=1073754953&pageTypeId=1073754893&contentType=EDITORIAL&BV_ID=@@@

New Delhi: India has inched closer to acquiring the Boeing P8I maritime patrol aircraft from the US that will give it a marked edge in the Indian Ocean region, with the contract negotiating committee completing its report on price negotiations, a defence official says.

"The report was prepared after negotiations with the company on the commercial price. The negotiations followed after Boeing won the technical bid and the trials of the product," the official said on condition of anonymity.

"The contract, estimated to cost around $2.2 billion, will now go to the defence acquisition committee (DAC) and then to the cabinet committee on security (CCS)."

The defence ministry has been conducting the negotiations on behalf of the Indian Navy and the contract is likely to be inked in New Delhi later this year.

Now that the central government has managed to survive without the Left parties, there is no fear of dealing with the US on this front, the official said.

"With its apprehensions about instability receding, the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government is rushing the deal," the official added.

The contract, when signed, will be unique in that it will not be conducted under the US foreign military sales (FMS) programme but as a direct commercial agreement between the Boeing company and the Indian Navy.

The negotiations on the deal were stuck due to India's reluctance to sign the end-user agreement, under which the company can conduct physical inspections of the aircraft as and when it wants to check if the product is being used for the purpose it has been acquired.

"However, the defence ministry separated the negotiations on the end user agreement from the deal," the official said.

The P8I is based on the hugely successful Boeing 737 commercial airliner and the first aircraft is currently under construction at Renton in Washington. Its first flight will take place early in 2009 and the first of the 108 aircraft the US Navy has ordered will be delivered in the third quarter of 2009.

"India will be able to leverage on the substantial investment made in the P8I by the US Navy without having to pay for the development costs," Richard Buck, Boeing's international programme manager for the P8I, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the company's production facility here.

"Under the RFP (request for proposal) of the Indian Navy, the first aircraft has to be delivered within 48 months of the contract being signed and the remaining within an eight-year time frame," Buck said.

The Indian Navy had, at one stage, contemplated leasing a few Lockheed Martin P3 Orion aircraft as an immediate replacement for its ageing fleet of Soviet-era Il-38 maritime reconnaissance aircraft but dropped the idea in favour of the next generation P8I that has been customised for India.

Besides, there is commonality with the three Boeing Business jets that the Indian Air Force has purchased "and there is, therefore, life cycle cost compatibility", Buck said.

"To add to this, Boeing's worldwide logistics, maintenance and training support facilities are already in place," he said.

[niteshkjain]

Guys this is something to cheer about:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/ET_Cetera/Delhi_engineering_students_win_US_competition_awar d/articleshow/3352738.cms

Delhi engineering students win US competition award
11 Aug, 2008, 1740 hrs IST, PTI

NEW DELHI: A team of undergraduates of the Delhi College of Engineering (DCE) has bagged the "Most Improved Design Award" for 2008 in a US-based tech competition organised to design a new-generation robotic submarine which can have a wider application in the defence field.

"The award is the first for any educational institute in the country," claimed head of DCE's Centre for Fibre Optics Research R K Sinha, adding that the overall position of the college stood at ninth place in the competition International Autonomous Underwater Vehicle Competition.

Notably, DCE was the only team from the country participating in the competition organised by the Association for Vehicle System International and the Office of the Naval Research, USA, at San Diego from July 29 to August 3.

In all, about 40 teams representing well-known institutes from across the world took part in the event. They included MIT, Georgia Tech, Cornell and Kyusho University of Japan among others.

University of Maryland clinched the pole position. Sinha said the robotic submarine codenamed "vehicle for autonomous research and underwater navigation" is capable of diving to a predetermined depth, identify patterns and follow underwater pipelines using unique machine vision.

Besides, it can determine sound sources by acoustic navigation, deploy payloads and can surface at any given position without human assistance.

[niteshkjain]

Guys check this. Rotary UAV's now :)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/08/14/314724/heron-flight-controls-to-convert-indian-cheetaks-to-unmanned.html

Heron flight controls to convert Indian Cheetaks to unmanned configuration
By Arie Egozi
The Indian ministry of defence and Israel Aerospace Industries are close to signing a contract to convert Indian-made Chetak helicopters to unmanned platforms for use on India's navy ships.
Prime contractor will be Hindustan Aeronautics, which will also invest in the full-scale development of the conversion kit. IAI has recently demonstrated its capability to convert a helicopter into a naval rotary unmanned air vehicle (NRUAV) system for combat ships.
IAI will remove the helicopters' integral avionics suites and replace them with a flight-control system as used on its Heron UAV. This system allows fully autonomous flight, including take-off and landing. The conversion kit has been tested on a Bell 206 and on an Aerospatiale Alouette 3.
IAI claims that the lightweight flight-control system allows the NRUAV to carry extra fuel, giving the helicopter in its unmanned configuration an endurance of 5.5h and operational radius of 120km (65nm) from the mother ship.

[tphuang]

hey guys,great news here ,it seems that the indian navy has decided to go for the p-8i mma aircraft,the price negotiation commitee has now submitted its report.

heer is the link and the article:

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/contentView.do?contentId=4369268&programId=1073754953&pageTypeId=1073754893&contentType=EDITORIAL&BV_ID=@@@

New Delhi: India has inched closer to acquiring the Boeing P8I maritime patrol aircraft from the US that will give it a marked edge in the Indian Ocean region, with the contract negotiating committee completing its report on price negotiations, a defence official says.

"The report was prepared after negotiations with the company on the commercial price. The negotiations followed after Boeing won the technical bid and the trials of the product," the official said on condition of anonymity.

"The contract, estimated to cost around $2.2 billion, will now go to the defence acquisition committee (DAC) and then to the cabinet committee on security (CCS)."

The defence ministry has been conducting the negotiations on behalf of the Indian Navy and the contract is likely to be inked in New Delhi later this year.

Now that the central government has managed to survive without the Left parties, there is no fear of dealing with the US on this front, the official said.

"With its apprehensions about instability receding, the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government is rushing the deal," the official added.

The contract, when signed, will be unique in that it will not be conducted under the US foreign military sales (FMS) programme but as a direct commercial agreement between the Boeing company and the Indian Navy.

The negotiations on the deal were stuck due to India's reluctance to sign the end-user agreement, under which the company can conduct physical inspections of the aircraft as and when it wants to check if the product is being used for the purpose it has been acquired.

"However, the defence ministry separated the negotiations on the end user agreement from the deal," the official said.

The P8I is based on the hugely successful Boeing 737 commercial airliner and the first aircraft is currently under construction at Renton in Washington. Its first flight will take place early in 2009 and the first of the 108 aircraft the US Navy has ordered will be delivered in the third quarter of 2009.

"India will be able to leverage on the substantial investment made in the P8I by the US Navy without having to pay for the development costs," Richard Buck, Boeing's international programme manager for the P8I, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the company's production facility here.

"Under the RFP (request for proposal) of the Indian Navy, the first aircraft has to be delivered within 48 months of the contract being signed and the remaining within an eight-year time frame," Buck said.

The Indian Navy had, at one stage, contemplated leasing a few Lockheed Martin P3 Orion aircraft as an immediate replacement for its ageing fleet of Soviet-era Il-38 maritime reconnaissance aircraft but dropped the idea in favour of the next generation P8I that has been customised for India.

Besides, there is commonality with the three Boeing Business jets that the Indian Air Force has purchased "and there is, therefore, life cycle cost compatibility", Buck said.

"To add to this, Boeing's worldwide logistics, maintenance and training support facilities are already in place," he said.

wow, that's 280 million per P-8I. Is that the cost of just the plane or does that include servicing and support?

[contedicavour]

The deal is reminiscent of the Indian loan of a Soviet Charlie Class back in the 1990s.

Speculation centres on a 10 year loan of 1 Akula, the 2006-launched Nerpa being the possible SSN selected. Jane's Fighting Ships claims the sub will be named Chakra.

It will surely provide excellent training and experience for the eventual ATV.

It does indeed remind us of the Charlie class SSN in the 90s though in time it was returned and I've never really understood what contribution that made back then. So now the IN will operate an almost new Akula but will it really help to make the secretive ATV programme advance ? I'm sceptical, unless the ATV will eventually prove to be a clone of the Russian SSN...

cheers

[aaaditya]

wow, that's 280 million per P-8I. Is that the cost of just the plane or does that include servicing and support?

i believe it includes the cost of servicing and support also,besides the spares of the boeing aircraft and its maintainence facilities are already available in india.

[niteshkjain]

Good move by IN

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-begins-naval-games-with-france-africa/71411-3.html

India begins naval games with France, Africa

New Delhi: Continuing with its policy of constructively engaging countries in West Asia and Africa to make its presence felt in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), India has sent four of its major warships to the Red Sea and the African coast on a two-month-long deployment.

"The Indian ships will be present in the IOR for a while, doing some flag showing and also engaging in naval diplomacy with some port calls, mid-sea exercises and interaction with personnel from the navies of the West Asian countries and the African continent," a top Navy official said.

The Indian warships--INS Delhi, INS Talwar, INS Godavari and INS Aditya-- will simultaneously be visiting countries and ports all along the eastern African coast and some ports in the Red Sea, apart from exercising with the French navy in the Gulf.

The ships from Indian Western Naval Command began their journey end of July and is only expected to come back to Indian shores in mid-September, the official said.

Delhi and Talwar have already completed their visit to Safaga port in Egypt in Red Sea between August 5 and 8, while Godavari and Aditya sailed to Refaet-al-Assad in Syria.

The ships would now be sailing Mombasa, the second largest port-city of Kenya, Darasalam in Nigeria, other east African ports and a couple of ports in Madagascar Island and Mauritius.

"With India's economic interest in West Asia and African region increasing, Navy will be playing its diplomatic role by visiting more ports all along the coast of eastern Africa, touching the Horn of Africa," the official said.

Apart from exercise with the French Navy, the Indian warships would also have Passage Exercises (Passex) with other navies off the ports during the course of their deployment in the region.

"Most of the navies in eastern Africa are small in size compared to the Indian Navy. What we would be aiming during these interaction is to give them the confidence that India would come to their aid whenever there is a need, considering that we have enough experience in all aspects of naval operations, be it military, diplomatic, policing or benign" the official said.

India would also conduct exercises with other navies during the deployment, related to Human Assistance and Disaster Relief (HADR) and Search and Rescue (SAR) operations "to both train them and to learn from them."

Once the Indian ships reach Mauritius, they would also tow a Naval ship of the island nation to Kochi for refit and repair. "The Mauritian ship is from the Indian naval service.

It was given to Mauritius for their use and we have an agreement with them for the ship's regular refit and repair. This towing of the Maurutian ship is under that agreement," the officer added.

Navy has been engaging the navies of the IOR for a few years now regularly and it has been especially focusing on the West Asian countries and the African continent on the western sea board. That apart, the Navy has been engaging other navies in the eastern front too.

[kay_man]

Good move by IN

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-begins-naval-games-with-france-africa/71411-3.html



"Most of the navies in eastern Africa are small in size compared to the Indian Navy. What we would be aiming during these interaction is to give them the confidence that India would come to their aid whenever there is a need, considering that we have enough experience in all aspects of naval operations, be it military, diplomatic, policing or benign" the official said.

.

Any clash of interests regarding the african and asian coutries is likely to be regaring oil resources. in which case the probable clash would be against USA or CHINA. is it advisable to use navy here?
coz both the countries have huge millitaries and i dont think posing indian navy ships ( although impressive) wud make them change their stance.

[Salty Dog]

It does indeed remind us of the Charlie class SSN in the 90s though in time it was returned and I've never really understood what contribution that made back then. So now the IN will operate an almost new Akula but will it really help to make the secretive ATV programme advance ? I'm sceptical, unless the ATV will eventually prove to be a clone of the Russian SSN...

cheers

Since it's the IN intention to acquire/build their own SSN it makes perfect sense to lease and SSN to train personnel. It not just a question of acquiring technology (I feel it has little to do with this), but mainly for the operational experience, tactics, logistics support, etc. that comes with an SSN in the fleet. I find it remarkable that Russia and India have this unique relationship with SSN's. Nothing like it elsewhere.

As far as the Charlie SSGN in the 90's, there mostly likely was a huge slide in the IN SSN/SSGN acquisition program (which we see coming about now-a-days) since late 90's worldwide economies were dismal.

[Salty Dog]

Apart from exercise with the French Navy, the Indian warships would also have Passage Exercises (Passex) with other navies off the ports during the course of their deployment in the region.

"Most of the navies in eastern Africa are small in size compared to the Indian Navy. What we would be aiming during these interaction is to give them the confidence that India would come to their aid whenever there is a need, considering that we have enough experience in all aspects of naval operations, be it military, diplomatic, policing or benign" the official said.

India would also conduct exercises with other navies during the deployment, related to Human Assistance and Disaster Relief (HADR) and Search and Rescue (SAR) operations "to both train them and to learn from them."

Navy has been engaging the navies of the IOR for a few years now regularly and it has been especially focusing on the West Asian countries and the African continent on the western sea board. That apart, the Navy has been engaging other navies in the eastern front too.

Very good indeed. This promises increasing joint naval operations for the Indian Ocean. Great to see India acquiring more roles in HADR and SAR. I feel this will pave the way for bigger and better things for the Indian Navy.

[niteshkjain]

Guys check this info, good move indeed:

http://frontierindia.net/indian-navy-buys-australian-minesweeping-system

Indian Navy buys Australian Minesweeping System

Written on August 19, 2008 – 1:35 pm | by Frontier India Strategic and Defence |

The Australian Minesweeping System (AMAS), developed by the Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DSTO), has scored another export success with India being the latest to acquire the innovative system that protects ships from underwater mines. The sale to India was the largest single overseas order for this technology since it was first exported in 1992.

Thales Australia has a worldwide license to market the system which is now in service with the navies of Australia, USA, Denmark, Poland, Japan, UAE, Indonesia and Thailand.

The DSTO-designed system is the world’s first operational sweep to emulate the magnetic signals of ships, causing sea mines to detonate prematurely and safely out of range of target vessels. The technology has been further improved in collaboration with Thales Australia.



The Australian Minesweeping System was used during the 2003 Gulf War when it was used by the Royal Navy to clear smart mines from the port of Umm Qasr in order to deliver humanitarian aid to the Iraqi .


It requires no form of power from the towing platform and can be towed by a variety of platforms for autonomous and remote control minesweeping operations. AMAS is a systems approach to minesweeping, comprising a magnetic, acoustic, and electric multi influence sweep; a sweep tracker monitor system; mission planning support system software; an ECDIS based minesweeping navigation and control system; a remote controlled minesweeping system and a range of integrated logistic support products and services including a shorting band kit and deployment containers. The sweep can be deployed from MCMVs, naval support craft, remote controlled drones and Craft of Opportunity such as fishing vessels.

[niteshkjain]

One more good move:

http://outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=600994

Aiming to boost India's 'Look East' policy, Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta will hold talks with Japanese and South Korean Defence officials during his visit to the two countries beginning tomorrow, while Indian naval ships will engage in wargaming with Japanese ships off Mumbai coast this monthend.

During his 10-day visit, Mehta will be in Japan till August 24 where he would meet its Defence Minister Shigaro Ishiba and Vice Minister Kohei Mansouda, apart from its defence forces' top naval officers Admiral Takeshi Saito and Admiral Eiji Yoshil, a top naval officer said here today.

The Navy chief would touch base at Tokyo, Yokosuka, Yokohama, Hiroshima and Koyoto during the five-day stay in Japan, where he would visit frontline warships and shipyards, in an effort to build relations between the two countries in this critical area of infrastructure.

While Mehta is in Japan, the Far East country's warships Kashima, Ashari and Umigari will be passing through Arabian Sea off Mumbai and would engage Indian warships in a bilateral naval exercise from August 23 to 26.

The Japanese Defence Ships (JDS) would match their capabilities during an advanced Passage Exercise (Passex) with a Delhi-class destroyer and a Corvette from India, as the former pass through Indian waters on their way back to their home ports after a visit to the Gulf.

While JDS Ashari and Umigari are 2,500-tonne destroyers carrying Harpoons, Surface-to-Air missiles, JDS Kashima is a naval training ship.

The two Indian warships would carry out cross deck and flying exercises with the Japanese ships.

[aaaditya]

Guys check this info, good move indeed:

http://frontierindia.net/indian-navy-buys-australian-minesweeping-system

Indian Navy buys Australian Minesweeping System

Written on August 19, 2008 – 1:35 pm | by Frontier India Strategic and Defence |

The Australian Minesweeping System (AMAS), developed by the Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DSTO), has scored another export success with India being the latest to acquire the innovative system that protects ships from underwater mines. The sale to India was the largest single overseas order for this technology since it was first exported in 1992.

Thales Australia has a worldwide license to market the system which is now in service with the navies of Australia, USA, Denmark, Poland, Japan, UAE, Indonesia and Thailand.

The DSTO-designed system is the world’s first operational sweep to emulate the magnetic signals of ships, causing sea mines to detonate prematurely and safely out of range of target vessels. The technology has been further improved in collaboration with Thales Australia.



The Australian Minesweeping System was used during the 2003 Gulf War when it was used by the Royal Navy to clear smart mines from the port of Umm Qasr in order to deliver humanitarian aid to the Iraqi .


It requires no form of power from the towing platform and can be towed by a variety of platforms for autonomous and remote control minesweeping operations. AMAS is a systems approach to minesweeping, comprising a magnetic, acoustic, and electric multi influence sweep; a sweep tracker monitor system; mission planning support system software; an ECDIS based minesweeping navigation and control system; a remote controlled minesweeping system and a range of integrated logistic support products and services including a shorting band kit and deployment containers. The sweep can be deployed from MCMVs, naval support craft, remote controlled drones and Craft of Opportunity such as fishing vessels.

thats an interesting development,i wonder wether this decision will influence the decision of the indian navy regarding which type of mcmv platform to acquire,an italian design is in consideration,a variant of which is in service with the australian navy(i believe it is called as the huon class,though iam not quite sure).

[niteshkjain]

now check this, more of a treat :)

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20080820_BrahMos.html

Indian Navy's follow-on submarine order to carry BrahMos cruise missiles news

20 August 2008

Indian Navy's next order for seven submarines, a follow-on order to the six French-designed Scorpenes already under various stages of construction at French and Indian shipyards, will all be armed with the sub-surface version of the Indo-Russian supersonic BrahMos cruise missile. This was stated by Alexander Dergachev, chairman of board of directors of the BrahMos Aerospace joint-venture.
Expressing the hope that the submarine order would be placed soon enough Dergachev said,
''The missiles will be made for submarines of the Indian Navy. The nearest order is seven submarines. We do not know yet when exactly it is going to happen. I hope soon.''

Dergachev was speaking at a press conference called to highlight the completion of ten years of the highly successful Indo-Russian BrahMos Aerospace joint venture. He also said that Russia and other countries of the world would participate in the tender, which would stipulate carriage of the BrahMos cruise missile as part of the submarine's armament.

Dr Sivathanu Pillai, chief executive of the joint venture, stated that Indian armed forces have already placed a $2 billion order for the missiles. The BrahMos cruise missile is already available in different land-to-land, sea-to-land and sea-to-sea versions.
A submarine launched and an air-to-surface version are ready for testing but await suitable platforms for carrying out the tests. While the air force is carrying out suitable modifications on Su-30MKI fighters to carry the missile, the Indian Navy has not indicated when it would make a modified submarine available for testing the sub-surface version.

BrahMos Aerospace was established in 1998 to design, develop, produce and market a unique supersonic cruise missile.Operating at a speed of Mach 2.8, it is the world's only supersonic cruise missile. While the propulsion is based on the Russian Yakhont missile, the guidance system has been developed by BrahMos Aerospace.

Between late 2004 and early 2008, the missile has undergone several tests from variety of platforms including a land based test at India's Pokhran firing range, where the missile performed the S- maneuver at Mach 2.8 for the Indian Army.

The missile has also been tested as a sea-to-land version recently.

The joint venture involves India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroeyenia.

[niteshkjain]

pls check this info:

IN facing US carrier force

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/21sld1.htm

[niteshkjain]

India Today has article on page 46 on INS chakra, next year is going to be eventful

http://emagazine.digitaltoday.in/indiatodayenglish/01092008/home.aspx

*ATV to be launched in Visakhapatnam on Jan 26, 2009
* The Chakra to be inducted into the navy on Aug 15 , 2009
* ATV is a modified Akula-1 class submarine , the aim is to field 3 ATV by 2015 ,
* ATV will be the first submarine equipped with Brahmos missile and the indigenous 700 km range K-15 missile ( 12 K-15 or 16 Brahmos )
* The Chakra is a modified Akula-II class submarine
* ATV is powered by a single indigenously build nuclear reactor.
* Three ATV is under construction , hull fabrication and integration is completed on the first ATV , it will be on trail for 2 years

[tphuang]

India Today has article on page 46 on INS chakra, next year is going to be eventful

http://emagazine.digitaltoday.in/indiatodayenglish/01092008/home.aspx

*ATV to be launched in Visakhapatnam on Jan 26, 2009
* The Chakra to be inducted into the navy on Aug 15 , 2009
* ATV is a modified Akula-1 class submarine , the aim is to field 3 ATV by 2015 ,
* ATV will be the first submarine equipped with Brahmos missile and the indigenous 700 km range K-15 missile ( 12 K-15 or 16 Brahmos )
* The Chakra is a modified Akula-II class submarine
* ATV is powered by a single indigenously build nuclear reactor.
* Three ATV is under construction , hull fabrication and integration is completed on the first ATV , it will be on trail for 2 years
interesting, the part on ATV sounds entirely different from what we've been hearing about it. And it's hard to imagine you would develop a SSBN as a modified SSN. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[StevoJH]

interesting, the part on ATV sounds entirely different from what we've been hearing about it. And it's hard to imagine you would develop a SSBN as a modified SSN. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I'd suggest the "stretched astute" as an example if i didn't know that it used the same reactor as the Vanguards, and as such has a similar beam. Its more an SSN developed from an SSBN then anything else. ;)

I do wonder why the Akula I was used and not the Akula II, then again, they could be referring to the typhoon class which i believe the russians call the Akula?

[ASFC]

All RN Nuclear Subs use the same Reactor family.

TBPH, all SSBNs are modified SSNs at the end of the day-and the RN is even going back to basics it seems for the Vanguard replacement.

It is going to be interesting next year to see what the Indian ATV is related to design wise.

[niteshkjain]

interesting, the part on ATV sounds entirely different from what we've been hearing about it. And it's hard to imagine you would develop a SSBN as a modified SSN. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Well I agree with you to some extent in a way that SSBN primary job is to lurk some where outside the conflict zone where as a SSN will be always present at the conflict zone. But both doesn't come without torpedo tubes. So if an ATV is carrying the sagarika then it can be a SSBN if it is carrying BrahMos then can act as SSN role. The interesting part will be the torpedo tubes, if it carries the 655 mm heavy torpedos also that will be interesting addition.

[niteshkjain]

This is an interesting move, clear indication towards interest in nuclear powered carrier
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/indian-navy-to-position-men-on-french-aircraft-carrier_10088477.html

August 25th, 2008 - 8:01 pm ICT by IANS

New Delhi, Aug 25 (IANS) The Indian Navy, poised to acquire its biggest aircraft carrier with the Admiral Gorshkov, will soon position its men on the French Navy’s aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle to get exposure to big vessels and how they function, a senior official said.”We will position our men on the French naval ship to study large ships. This would also be an exposure for them in terms of how large carriers work,” said the naval official.

“The nuclear powered Charles de Gaulle would be good exposure for the Indian naval officials as there are many issues, like nuclear propulsion, involved in operating a large aircraft carrier at sea,” the official added.The training on board the French aircraft carrier will begin in October next year.

A 45,000-tonne carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, renamed INS Vikramaditya, was to be delivered in late 2007 or early 2008 but this has now been pushed back to 2012.

By 2022, the Indian navy aims to have a fleet of 160-plus ships, three aircraft carriers and 400 aircraft of different types.

The Indian Navy has increased cooperation with the leading navies of the world, including the Royal Navy of Britain, the US Navy and the French Navy.

Earlier this month, the Indian Navy conducted a combined patrol with the French Navy off the Horn of Africa to understand the situation in the area.

In May this year, the Indian Navy held a bilateral exercise called Varuna with the French Navy off India’s east coast. The French Navy had fielded its Landing Platform Dock-Mistral.

[niteshkjain]

guys check this:

http://www.nio.org/uploads/advert_AUV.pdf?newsId=186

Can this be used as mini sub?

[niteshkjain]

Guys this needs attention:

Deccan Herald - Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat (http://deccanherald.com/Content/Aug262008/national2008082686645.asp)

Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat
DH News Service, New Delhi:
In what may change the strategic complexities in the Indian Ocean region, China is developing at least three aircraft carriers, the first of which is expected to be ready by 2012.


The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has also invested heavily in constructing the replenishment vessels.

The first Chinese carrier will be, Varyug – a 32,000 tonnes Admiral Kuznetsov class Soviet warship. Its ownership was handed over to Ukraine after USSR’s disintegration.

China is understood to have purchased the carrier from Ukraine. “It is expected to be ready by 2012.” said a navy officer. While aircraft carriers give the PLAN increased mobility in the Indian Ocean region and enables Chinese maritime activities, Beijing is also constructing six replenishment vessels that can provide fuel and other supplies to the deployed PLAN battleships. The first one’s capacity is more than the India tanker, INS Aditya.

Intense ship building activities are on in Hainan Island off Chinese southern coast, where nuclear ballistic missile submarines are being developed. At the moment, PLAN is playing the strategic game as it is not yet ready to venture out. But it is in a preparatory mode, he said, adding PLAN did not have air support. For comparison, the lone Indian aircraft carrier INS Virat is undergoing a refit and repair work as the government has decided to extend Virat’s life by another five-six years due to the delays in procuring the Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

Apparently Navy Chief Admiral Susheel Kumar’s last year’s public outburst against the Russian long hand tactics paid off with Moscow expediting the refit work and price renegotiations, he said.

The indigenous carrier, Air Defence Ship, is also under construction and expected to be ready for induction by 2015 only.


To me seems to be just a cry to get more budget.

[2S1]

It does indeed remind us of the Charlie class SSN in the 90s though in time it was returned and I've never really understood what contribution that made back then. So now the IN will operate an almost new Akula but will it really help to make the secretive ATV programme advance ? I'm sceptical, unless the ATV will eventually prove to be a clone of the Russian SSN...

cheers

Agreed.

I have no doubt using the Akula will provide invaluable training and introduce another capability to the IN.

But the sooner the IN gets its own ATV design in the water, the better. SSN warfare I hear is all about technology, developing doctrine and knowing your own ability. Using someone else's boats surely does not aid that.

[niteshkjain]

Pls check the post no. 1338 that is the latest updates.

[2S1]

Pls check the post no. 1338 that is the latest updates.

niteshkjain, sorry if I sound doubtful or disrespectful, but I'll believe when I see it. I think tphuang's post clarifies.

[tatra]

India Today has article on page 46 on INS chakra, next year is going to be eventful

http://emagazine.digitaltoday.in/indiatodayenglish/01092008/home.aspx

*ATV to be launched in Visakhapatnam on Jan 26, 2009
* The Chakra to be inducted into the navy on Aug 15 , 2009
* ATV is a modified Akula-1 class submarine , the aim is to field 3 ATV by 2015 ,
* ATV will be the first submarine equipped with Brahmos missile and the indigenous 700 km range K-15 missile ( 12 K-15 or 16 Brahmos )
* The Chakra is a modified Akula-II class submarine
* ATV is powered by a single indigenously build nuclear reactor.
* Three ATV is under construction , hull fabrication and integration is completed on the first ATV , it will be on trail for 2 years

Do take care when using names with russian subs, as russian names and NATO names are easily mixed up. For example:
NATO codename Akula I/II = Russian Project 971 Shuka-B = SSN
NATO codename Typhoon = Russian Project 941 Akula = SSBN

Poject 885 Yasen / Graney Severodinsk class is a new attack submarine design that is a further derivative of the Project 971 Shuka-B (NATO:Akula).
Bharat Rakshak states that India will lease 2 Akula and that the ATV will be based on the Severodinsk and/or Akula. I take that to mean 'a derivative of Pojrect 885, which is itself a derivative of project 971'
That means ATV is an SSN. Based on drawings I've seen of proposed russian SSK, it would expect it to launch Brahmos from a VL-launcher. In SSKs there are usually 8 tubes but ATV is bigger and perhaps that gives room for 2 sets of 8. However, these cannot fire K15 (larger diameter missile). So if ATV also fires K15, then it must be that a different set of VL launchers will be fitted, which implies 2 versions of ATV (one SSN and one SSB). This seems unlikely. There are better design for a boomer available from Russian.

[2S1]

Do take care when using names with russian subs, as russian names and NATO names are easily mixed up. For example:
NATO codename Akula I/II = Russian Project 971 Shuka-B = SSN
NATO codename Typhoon = Russian Project 941 Akula = SSBN

Poject 885 Yasen / Graney Severodinsk class is a new attack submarine design that is a further derivative of the Project 971 Shuka-B (NATO:Akula).
Bharat Rakshak states that India will lease 2 Akula and that the ATV will be based on the Severodinsk and/or Akula. I take that to mean 'a derivative of Pojrect 885, which is itself a derivative of project 971'
That means ATV is an SSN. Based on drawings I've seen of proposed russian SSK, it would expect it to launch Brahmos from a VL-launcher. In SSKs there are usually 8 tubes but ATV is bigger and perhaps that gives room for 2 sets of 8. However, these cannot fire K15 (larger diameter missile). So if ATV also fires K15, then it must be that a different set of VL launchers will be fitted, which implies 2 versions of ATV (one SSN and one SSB). This seems unlikely. There are better design for a boomer available from Russian.



So you are following the old Soviet concept of SSN warfare?

[niteshkjain]

niteshkjain, sorry if I sound doubtful or disrespectful, but I'll believe when I see it. I think tphuang's post clarifies.

I didn't mean to say that u should agree, was telling you to just see the dates in it. Will any way come to know about it in some months. :)

[tphuang]

Well I agree with you to some extent in a way that SSBN primary job is to lurk some where outside the conflict zone where as a SSN will be always present at the conflict zone. But both doesn't come without torpedo tubes. So if an ATV is carrying the sagarika then it can be a SSBN if it is carrying BrahMos then can act as SSN role. The interesting part will be the torpedo tubes, if it carries the 655 mm heavy torpedos also that will be interesting addition.

I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.


Guys this needs attention:

Deccan Herald - Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat

Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat
DH News Service, New Delhi:
In what may change the strategic complexities in the Indian Ocean region, China is developing at least three aircraft carriers, the first of which is expected to be ready by 2012.


The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has also invested heavily in constructing the replenishment vessels.

The first Chinese carrier will be, Varyug – a 32,000 tonnes Admiral Kuznetsov class Soviet warship. Its ownership was handed over to Ukraine after USSR’s disintegration.

China is understood to have purchased the carrier from Ukraine. “It is expected to be ready by 2012.” said a navy officer. While aircraft carriers give the PLAN increased mobility in the Indian Ocean region and enables Chinese maritime activities, Beijing is also constructing six replenishment vessels that can provide fuel and other supplies to the deployed PLAN battleships. The first one’s capacity is more than the India tanker, INS Aditya.

Intense ship building activities are on in Hainan Island off Chinese southern coast, where nuclear ballistic missile submarines are being developed. At the moment, PLAN is playing the strategic game as it is not yet ready to venture out. But it is in a preparatory mode, he said, adding PLAN did not have air support. For comparison, the lone Indian aircraft carrier INS Virat is undergoing a refit and repair work as the government has decided to extend Virat’s life by another five-six years due to the delays in procuring the Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

Apparently Navy Chief Admiral Susheel Kumar’s last year’s public outburst against the Russian long hand tactics paid off with Moscow expediting the refit work and price renegotiations, he said.

The indigenous carrier, Air Defence Ship, is also under construction and expected to be ready for induction by 2015 only.


I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?

[2S1]

I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.


I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?

Mod edit: Text deleted. Kindly do not make comments which are derogatory and/or intended to offend people or cultures. Flamebaiting is not appreciated.
-Preceptor

[niteshkjain]

I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.


Your point is correct, but seeing the IN budget, and the reports coming in, they might go for it. But any way the specs are not out there is lot of confusion, but more or less ATV will be SSBN not a SSN that role can be done by INS chakra.


I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?

No it seems to be more of a news to make the bureaucracy listen to genuine needs. IN is operating carriers from a long time and they obviously would like to keep that in this way only.

[funtz]

Mod edit: Quoted texted deleted and replaced with a moderator comment.
-Preceptor

India and Pakistan are more content to procure whatever they see fit for their security situation, although the two nations have to respond to each other, they are still between a ceasefire situation, hopefully situation will improve in the coming decade.


I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.
I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?

PRC is seen as a threat which is actively involved with enemy states and has influence around the neighbourhood, there are no options, but to beef up the military services accordingly, does not mean that they construct a 1000 boats and 100 submarines.

PRC military expansion should result in a lot of sales around the region

The technology demonstrator of the ATV SSBN will be coming out, followed by trials and then depending on how long the trials take an induction into the navy.

[2S1]

Mod edit: Text deleted. Kindly do not make comments which are derogatory and/or intended to offend people or cultures. Flamebaiting is not appreciated.
-Preceptor

I don't think the observation I made was in bad taste or disregard.

I appreciate the Moderator's view and judgement here; but I ask you to undertand the worthy conversation and argument. Especially when we all consider the mass-plenty overt politically motivated views currently displayed elsewhere on this website, your response here does seem rather disproportionate.

[niteshkjain]

This is an interesting move, doing policing in Africa also
http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=14719

In the wake of recent hijacks of ships on the Somalia coast and the threat to shipping line, Indian Navy has sent a proposal to the Indian government of having regular patrols in the Somalia waters, on the line of US naval patrols, which is now stationed there.

The letter was written after pirates took over a cargo ship, 'Iran Deynat' in Somalia on August 21. There were total 24 people in the ship including three Indians. The ship 'Iran Deynat' was sailing towards Somalia carrying cargo from Poland.

The proposal deal with the implications of having regular patrols in the area, and this could lead to quicker response by the Indian Navy in case of similar responses in the future. This could lead to unilateral action or even joint action against pirates.

The transitional federal government of Somalia has authorized the United Nations Security Council to permit other countries to enter Somalia waters to fight pirates. Somali coastal waters are among the most hazardous in the world, despite the presence of US navy patrols there.

The US and NATO warships have been patrolling off the Horn of Africa for years in an effort to crack down on piracy off Somalia, where a UN-backed transitional government is struggling to restore order after 15 years of near-anarchy.

navy sources:

1. the transitional federal government of Somalia has authorised the united nations security council to permit other countries to enter somali waters to fight piracy

2. keeping this in mind, the indian navy has sent a proposal to the indian govt regarding activity in somali waters after the recent incident of piracy happened

3. the proposals deal with the implications of having regular patrols in the area. this could lead to quicker response by the navy in case of similar responses in the future

4. this could lead to unilateral action or even joint action against pirates. there is an american naval task force there, for example

[niteshkjain]

This should surely help in speeding the ship building industry
http://finance.indiainfo.com/2008/09/04/0809041647_bae_india_building_ships.html

BAE Systems India, subsidiary of the Britain-based global defence company BAE Systems, is planning a foray into shipbuilding besides expanding operations in India with more joint ventures and partnerships, a top company official said here Thursday.

"We are open to shipbuilding and will explore it. Our team will start working on it from the year end," Julian Scopes, the newly appointed president of BAE Systems India, told reporters. "We are working out plans for more strategic tie-ups in India. We are no more an aircraft company," he added.

BAE has a partnership with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bangalore since 1983. Scopes said BAE was waiting for the Indian government's clearance for its strategic tie-up with the auto giant Mahindra and Mahindra (MM) to manufacture heavy armed land vehicles besides artillery equipment.

"Once we get the consent of the Indian government, our shares in the company would go up from 26 percent to 49 percent. This will give us a better economic recognition," he said.

BAE is also working on more partnerships with the state-owned Indian firms involved in defence research and development. "We want to expand in India. We are now limited to selling Hawks and linked to other smaller programmes concerning defence sector," Scopes said.

The company delivered over 12 advanced jet trainers Hawk to the Indian Air Force (IAF) this year. Scopes, however, refused to comment on an incident where a Hawk trainer skidded off the runway.

By this month-end, the IAF is hopeful of getting 24 of these trainer jets to start its first advanced pilot training course. Under the deal, India is buying 24 Hawks off the shelf and remaining 42 fighters will be assembled at the HAL facility in Bangalore under technology transfer from BAE systems.

The first HAL built Hawk trainer was inducted by the IAF on Aug 15. BAE Systems and HAL are scheduled to complete the delivery of all 66 aircraft by 2011.

[harryriedl]

are BAE going to buy a ship yard or just tie up with a ship yard? It wasn't clear in the artical

[Rish]

Sorry mods, this is an old article and the link is from another forum. I couldn't find a free copy of the article anywhere else, so I had to resort to using this. The article was originally written for forceindia.net

I didn't realize that the second IAC would be 64,000 tonnes. I know it is premature to ask, but is there any news on this?

Heres the link: http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php?topic=10267.0

Indian Navy eyes three-dimensional force to project power and stability in IOR

By Prasun K. Sengupta

The Indian Navy (IN) in the next five years plans to deploy two potent carrier battle groups (CBG) to project power as well as act as a stabilising influence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond. The basic aim behind a powerful three-dimensional naval force, with the ‘blue-water element’ jumping from the present 40 per cent to 60 per cent, is to keep India’s primary area of interest in IOR under adequate surveillance and to ensure that economic activity is not hindered.

It is for this reason that the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, was contracted for in January 2004 and was originally scheduled to be inducted into service by the IN by August 15 this year.

India has already paid around USD 460 million of the USD 974 million earmarked for Gorshkov’s refit under a fixed price contract. However, Moscow now wants an additional USD 1.2 billion to refurbish the aircraft carrier, as the Russian shipyard, Sevmashpredpriyatiye, near the city of Archangelsk, has to do recabling work of 2,400 km (as opposed to 800 km as per original estimates), with the vessel being readied for service only by 2011.

As things now stand, the Vikramaditya will have on board the Poima-E CMS comprising nine multi-function consoles, Podberezovik-ET1 long-range air/surface search radar and a Fregat-M2EM medium-range radar, all built by Salyut State Moscow Plant FSUE. Close-in air defence will be provided by four Kashtan-M systems, while medium-range air defence will be provided by 64 Altair 9M317ME medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAM) mounted on four 16-cell vertical launchers.

To cater for the unforeseen unavailability of the Vikramaditya, the IN could contract state-owned Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) to undertake another refit of its ageing 28,000-tonne aircraft carrier INS Viraat in 2008 to take care of any contingency through to 2012. But this option makes sense only if the navy in the near future acquires up to 12 pre-owned but refurbished AV-8B Harrier V/STOL combat aircraft from the US Marine Corps and upgrades them. This move will, in turn, avert another crisis facing the navy, this being the steadily dwindling fleet of Sea Harrier FRS Mk51 V/STOL aircraft that now numbers less than 10.

Another option that needs to go hand-in-hand is for CSL to expedite con[/glow]struction of the first 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC), which as of now is due for delivery only by 2012, with a second, larger IAC (displacing 64,000 tonnes) following in 2017. The primary early warning sensors and on-board air defence systems of the IAC will be identical to that on board the Project 15A DDG (these being the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR active phased-array radar with four antennae and Barak-2 long-range SAMs).

In addition, twin OTOBreda 76-mm/62 main guns will be mounted. The IAC’s integrated platform management system, propulsion control system, automatic fire detection system, advanced power management system and battle damage control systems are all now being designed by L-3 MAPPS. Fincantieri (part of Italy’s Finmeccanica group) is designing and supplying the integrated propulsion system centered around four GE LM-2500 marine industrial gas turbines.

A third option for the IN (one that it prefers the most but is being prevented from voicing out due to political reasons) concerns the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63), with India in return committing to the off-the-shelf purchase of about 40 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and four EA-18G Growlers, six Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye AEW & C aircraft and up to 12 Boeing/BAE Systems T-45C Goshawk lead-in fighter trainers.

The US has also offered to supply the critical steam catapults for the second, bigger IAC to be built by CSL, which will enable the vessel to house all aircraft types acquired by the IN for conducting operations from the leased Kitty Hawk (in contrast, the Vikramaditya and the first IAC will have STOBAR configurations that preclude the need for a steam catapult for launching aircraft from the carriers’ decks).

If this option is exercised by India, the Kitty Hawk, which can accommodate 85 aircraft and helicopters (it is presently home ported in Yokosuka, Japan and will be decommissioned by the year’s end) will be subjected to a 15-month service life extension programme (SLEP) costing about USD 150 million, which will add another 10 years of service life to the vessel. At the same time, its on-board armaments suite will be upgraded to accommodate two Raytheon-built RIM-162 ESSM medium-range SAM launchers and a close-in weapons system comprising four RIM-116 RAM missile launchers and four Vulcan Phalanx 20mm gatling guns. The entire commercial transaction, if undertaken, will be channelled through the US’ Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract implementation process.

[swerve]

The 64000 ton figure is pure speculation. The Indian navy has not said anything about the size of any third carrier, AFAIK. If you read this article - http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php?topic=12514.0 you will see that Admiral Mehta says nothing about either the size or delivery date (2017 is optimistic even for a carrier of the same design, BTW, let alone a much larger ship, necessarily of a new design), only saying that India will order another carrier.

Sengupta has a poor reputation. In this particular case, note this - "the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk". There is no evidence for this claim. The US Secretary of Defence thought a reporter was joking when he was asked about it, in February this year. The story didn't even get an official denial for some time, because it was considered too silly, too obviously false, to be worth denying. The story began as a journalist speculating about the possibility of such a deal, & mutated on the internet into a story that the USA had made an offer. And yet Sengupta presents it as fact!

[Rish]

The 64000 ton figure is pure speculation. The Indian navy has not said anything about the size of any third carrier, AFAIK. If you read this article - http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php?topic=12514.0 you will see that Admiral Mehta says nothing about either the size or delivery date (2017 is optimistic even for a carrier of the same design, BTW, let alone a much larger ship, necessarily of a new design), only saying that India will order another carrier.

Sengupta has a poor reputation. In this particular case, note this - "the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk". There is no evidence for this claim. The US Secretary of Defence thought a reporter was joking when he was asked about it, in February this year. The story didn't even get an official denial for some time, because it was considered too silly, too obviously false, to be worth denying. The story began as a journalist speculating about the possibility of such a deal, & mutated on the internet into a story that the USA had made an offer. And yet Sengupta presents it as fact!

hm I didn't realize that forceindia employed low quality reporters in its staff. I'll think twice before taking his articles seriously. Thanks for clearing this up swerve

[Rish]

India may buy harpoons from the US.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/10missile.htm

US to sell Harpoon missiles worth $ 170 million to India


The Department of Defence has said that the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be The Boeing Company of St Louis, Missouri and there are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

"Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional US Government or contractor representatives to India permanently.

"There may be US Government or contractor personnel in the country on a temporary basis in conjunction with program technical and management oversight and support requirements," the Pentagon has said.

There will not be any adverse impact on US defence readiness as a result of this proposed sale, the Pentagon added.

[JEEHA]

is the harpoon better than the current missles that IN have(LIKE THE BRAHMOS).....or is it the aftermath of the indo us nuclear deal????does it comes with ful ToT?

[Salty Dog]

is the harpoon better than the current missles that IN have(LIKE THE BRAHMOS).....or is it the aftermath of the indo us nuclear deal????does it comes with ful ToT?

The Harpoon II India requested is the air-launched version and not surface launched.

The real question should be why the Harpoon when an air launched Brahmos is under development?

The Harpoon II could be the replacement for the Sea Eagle. The Harpoon II could be integrated for use by the Jaguars, Mig-29K or even Su-30MKI (the latter I doubt).

But what strikes me about the Harpoon request is that it dovetails perfectly for the P-8 MMA. If the Harpoon II deal goes through, it could very well be the prelude to a bigger deal, . . the P-8I.

[kams]

The Harpoon II India requested is the air-launched version and not surface launched.

The real question should be why the Harpoon when an air launched Brahmos is under development?

The Harpoon II could be the replacement for the Sea Eagle. The Harpoon II could be integrated for use by the Jaguars, Mig-29K or even Su-30MKI (the latter I doubt).

But what strikes me about the Harpoon request is that it dovetails perfectly for the P-8 MMA. If the Harpoon II deal goes through, it could very well be the prelude to a bigger deal, . . the P-8I.

You are right, Harpoon II are being bought as replacement for Sea Eagle. These are meant to equip Jaguar maritime strike squadron. The deal was hanging for atleast 18 months as the tender specification resulted in single vendor deal, to which there were objections.

Brahmos can not be fitted on Jagurs.

[JEEHA]

But what strikes me about the Harpoon request is that it dovetails perfectly for the P-8 MMA. If the Harpoon II deal goes through, it could very well be the prelude to a bigger deal, . . the P-8I.

p-8 MMA???????????????????? its still under developement!!!!!!! i dont think the us is even thinking about offering it to india!!!!!

[swerve]

p-8 MMA???????????????????? its still under developement!!!!!!! i dont think the us is even thinking about offering it to india!!!!!
You've not been paying attention. It has been offered, as the P-8I.

Look at the Boeing India website - http://www.boeing.co.in/ViewContent.do?id=3264

[Firehorse]

India targeting China's oil supplies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2957578/India-targeting-Chinas-oil-supplies.html

If that blockade was to happen, of Can China get by long enough with oil from Cental Asia & Russia?

[tphuang]

India targeting China's oil supplies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2957578/India-targeting-Chinas-oil-supplies.html

If that blockade was to happen, of Can China get by long enough with oil from Cental Asia & Russia?

They have 30 days of strategic reserve + imports for about 1/3 of its need + get 80% of import from Middle East and Africa. That means it looses about 25% of the oil that it needs in the event of a conflict. 30 full day of reserve would last 120 days. This is assuming that the country will not try to conserve usage in event of war and also that it will not buy more oil from Russia or produce more oil domestically in such an event.

And this article makes the assumption that India can actually choke it off, when it will have to intercept all oil tankers passing through the sea lane. After all, how do you know if a tanker is going to just China and not to Japan or Korea? Any of which, would constitute a declaration of war against the other country. And also, this makes the assumption that IN can defeat PLAN in open water. I would consider Singapore, Malaysia and Australia to be far greater threat in choking China off due to their closer proximity and in Australia's case (more advanced submarines).

[Rish]

India targeting China's oil supplies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2957578/India-targeting-Chinas-oil-supplies.html

If that blockade was to happen, of Can China get by long enough with oil from Cental Asia & Russia?

funny thing, i was reading about something along these lines today. it has to do with china's fuel consumption in a wartime scenario. heres the link to the article. its pretty interesting.

http://www.upiasiaonline.com/Security/2007/12/28/fuel_needs_limit_chinas_combat_ability/6628/

[funtz]

India targeting China's oil supplies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2957578/India-targeting-Chinas-oil-supplies.html

If that blockade was to happen, of Can China get by long enough with oil from Cental Asia & Russia?


Goes to show that there are equal levels of bad journalism in defence matters all around the world.

The only way to choke some nation with a blockade is to come up near the ports, the modern day merchant shipping is in too big a mess to even think about targeting ships based on where the owners are based.

Indian Navy will not go near Chinese shores.

Controlling the seas, not becoming pirates.

The amount of resources it might take to board every single one of the Ships going to and coming from China will be humongous and everyone can see what it is that the Indian Navy will be procuring in the coming decade, nothing to point towards a suicide there.

[funtz]

You are right, Harpoon II are being bought as replacement for Sea Eagle. These are meant to equip Jaguar maritime strike squadron. The deal was hanging for atleast 18 months as the tender specification resulted in single vendor deal, to which there were objections.

Brahmos can not be fitted on Jagurs.

What all changes will the maritime strike sq. of jaguars need to accommodate these missiles, and will it be worth the investment, how long can we keep the jaguars going?

[tatra]

What is the latest on the P17s in Mumbai? Any progress made? Equipments installed? ANY NEW IMAGES!?!?

[Rish]

What is the latest on the P17s in Mumbai? Any progress made? Equipments installed? ANY NEW IMAGES!?!?

well according to bharat-raksha the first of the P17s was supposed to start sea trials in June of 2008. This is consist of reports by other sources. Other than that I haven't found any news of reports that sea trials have begun for the first of the ships. INS Shivalik is supposed to be inducted into the indian navy in december of this year.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Project17.html

[Rish]

Good news, the indian navy is in the process of acquiring six more diesel submarines

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10316

New Delhi, Sept 26 (PTI) India has initiated the process of acquiring six more submarines on the lines of the under-construction Scorpenes to augment its underwater warfare capabilities.
"The Navy has initiated the process of acquisition of six more diesel-electric submarines and has issued a Request for Information (RFI) to major manufacturers across the globe," top Defence Ministry sources told PTI today.

"The Defence Ministry will now await responses from these companies and will follow it up with global tenders or Request for Proposals (RFP) next year," they said.

In all, Navy plans to procure 30 new submarines to have formidable underwater fighting capabilities.

India already has 16 submarines of the Russian Kilo and German HDW Shishumar Class.

Among the countries from where India is seeking information are France, Russia and Italy, all with major submarine manufacturing capabilities.

The new submarines would be procured as a follow-on of the six Scorpene submarines being built at the Defence Public Sector Undertaking shipyard, Mazagon Dockyards Limited (MDL), in Mumbai.

"The additional six submarines will start joining the Indian Navy fleet after all the first set of six Scorpenes have joined the naval fleet," the sources said. PTI

[Rish]

Good news guys, Russia will start delivering MiG-29k's to India in Spring of 2009. BTW does anyone know how many aircraft the Admiral Gorshov will be able to carry when fully loaded. I couldn't find an exact number. Thanks

source: http://www.india -defence.com/reports-4034

Russia to Deliver MIG 29K Fighter Jets to India in 2009

Russia will start deliveries of MiG-29K Fulcrum-D carrier fighters to India in the spring of 2009. Russia and India signed a contract on January 20, 2004, stipulating the delivery of 12 single-seater MiG-29K and four two-seater MiG-29KUB by 2009, to be deployed on the Admiral Gorshkov, currently being retrofitted in Russia for the Indian Navy.

"The first four MiG-29K aircraft will be delivered to India in the spring of 2009," said Mikhail Globenko, marketing director of MiG. The MiG official said that there was an option in the contract to supply an additional 30 fighters by 2015 and the company was in talks with the Indian Navy on exercising this option.

"We are ready to exercise this option and it all now depends on the Indian side," Globenko said. He also said that Indian pilots started on Monday a five-month training course for MiG-29K in Russia and technical personnel had already been training in Russia for two months. "By the time the first aircraft arrive in India, their pilots and technicians will be ready," the Russian official said.

[kay_man]

[QUOTE=Rish;155594]Good news guys, Russia will start delivering MiG-29k's to India in Spring of 2009. BTW does anyone know how many aircraft the Admiral Gorshov will be able to carry when fully loaded. I couldn't find an exact number. Thanks

source: http://www.india -defence.com/reports-4034

Russia to Deliver MIG 29K Fighter Jets to India in 2009

Russia will start deliveries of MiG-29K Fulcrum-D carrier fighters to India in the spring of 2009. Russia and India signed a contract on January 20, 2004, stipulating the delivery of 12 single-seater MiG-29K and four two-seater MiG-29KUB by 2009, to be deployed on the Admiral Gorshkov, currently being retrofitted in Russia for the Indian Navy.

QUOTE]

you have answered your own question. there will be 12.

[Rish]

[QUOTE=Rish;155594]Good news guys, Russia will start delivering MiG-29k's to India in Spring of 2009. BTW does anyone know how many aircraft the Admiral Gorshov will be able to carry when fully loaded. I couldn't find an exact number. Thanks

source: http://www.india -defence.com/reports-4034

Russia to Deliver MIG 29K Fighter Jets to India in 2009

Russia will start deliveries of MiG-29K Fulcrum-D carrier fighters to India in the spring of 2009. Russia and India signed a contract on January 20, 2004, stipulating the delivery of 12 single-seater MiG-29K and four two-seater MiG-29KUB by 2009, to be deployed on the Admiral Gorshkov, currently being retrofitted in Russia for the Indian Navy.

QUOTE]

you have answered your own question. there will be 12.

So there is no difference between the number of aircraft the Gorshkov will be able to carry during wartime and peacetime? Seems kind of odd considering most contemporary aircraft carriers can up the number of aircraft they have on board during times of war if and when needed.

[Salty Dog]

Let's not forget the Mig-29Ks will be competing for flight deck and hangar space with helicopters and Sea Harriers. For sure there will be a mix.

[StevoJH]

Let's not forget the Mig-29Ks will be competing for flight deck and hangar space with helicopters and Sea Harriers. For sure there will be a mix.

Last time i checked they had hardly any sea harriers left. Not sure how valid the assumption is, but i'm going to assume they'll be retired with Hermes/Viraat. Don't forget that it isnt only the flight deck and hanger of Gorshov that will need filling, but the deck and hanger of their indigenous carrier thats under construction.

[Rish]

Let's not forget the Mig-29Ks will be competing for flight deck and hangar space with helicopters and Sea Harriers. For sure there will be a mix.

yeah thats what i meant. I wanted to know what the maximum number of helicopters + fighter aircraft could be deployed during a wartime scenario on the aircraft carrier. I agree with StevoJH. I don't see the Sea Harriers as being in service too long.

[kay_man]

yeah thats what i meant. I wanted to know what the maximum number of helicopters + fighter aircraft could be deployed during a wartime scenario on the aircraft carrier. I agree with StevoJH. I don't see the Sea Harriers as being in service too long.

the vikramaditya will have a compliment of 12-16 mig-29k / harrier / lca naval version (seems less likely).
it will also carry 8-12 helos viz. sea king / chetak / dhruv.
the vikramaditya is set to be ready by 2011-2012.

the indegenous carrier that will be ready by 2013-14 will have mig-29k / naval LCA.
helicopter compliment will comprise of indegenous medium helo + replacement for sea kings / might even feature light combat helicopter for landing support missions.

[divedeep]

the vikramaditya will have a compliment of 12-16 mig-29k / harrier / lca naval version (seems less likely).
it will also carry 8-12 helos viz. sea king / chetak / dhruv.
the vikramaditya is set to be ready by 2011-2012.

the indegenous carrier that will be ready by 2013-14 will have mig-29k / naval LCA.
helicopter compliment will comprise of indegenous medium helo + replacement for sea kings / might even feature light combat helicopter for landing support missions.

Those timeframes sound hopelessly optimistic. Don't get me wrong, Indians are capable of building hulls as well as everyone else just that their bureaucrats are incapable of putting together a plan that meets deadlines.

[kay_man]

Those timeframes sound hopelessly optimistic. Don't get me wrong, Indians are capable of building hulls as well as everyone else just that their bureaucrats are incapable of putting together a plan that meets deadlines.

I couldn't agree with you more.
The timeline may be a bit too optimistic for the indegenous carrier.
However i must agree when they say that INS Vikramaditya will be delivered by 2011-2012.
The payment issues have been solved, work is progressing and i have a feeling that the Indian navy will be very persistent about the timeline as the INS Viraat (Hermes) will expire at around the same time.

[Salty Dog]

I couldn't agree with you more.
The timeline may be a bit too optimistic for the indegenous carrier.
However i must agree when they say that INS Vikramaditya will be delivered by 2011-2012.
The payment issues have been solved, work is progressing and i have a feeling that the Indian navy will be very persistent about the timeline as the INS Viraat (Hermes) will expire at around the same time.

The timeline could slide even further to the right given current and future world economic situations. Both Russia and India are emerging markets and may still see the worst to come.

[harryriedl]

I couldn't agree with you more.
The timeline may be a bit too optimistic for the indegenous carrier.
However i must agree when they say that INS Vikramaditya will be delivered by 2011-2012.
The payment issues have been solved, work is progressing and i have a feeling that the Indian navy will be very persistent about the timeline as the INS Viraat (Hermes) will expire at around the same time.
Hermes will have to last unless India wants to lose it carrier it should have gone next year before the huge Gorskov delay meant the IN have to move its retirement date [its in Refit isn't it?]. Its an amazing feat that kept in service for so long

[StevoJH]

Hermes will have to last unless India wants to lose it carrier it should have gone next year before the huge Gorskov delay meant the IN have to move its retirement date [its in Refit isn't it?]. Its an amazing feat that kept in service for so long

That ship is operating way past its expiry date. The ship was laid down in world war two even if it wasnt completed until the 1950's, so parts of the ship, specifically the hull date from 1944, and since its commissioning in 1959 the ship was used heavily, at least until it transferred to the Indian Navy. This ship has been commissioned in the RN and IN for 49 years this year, much longer then it was ever expected for this ship to be in service.

[Rish]

That ship is operating way past its expiry date. The ship was laid down in world war two even if it wasnt completed until the 1950's, so parts of the ship, specifically the hull date from 1944, and since its commissioning in 1959 the ship was used heavily, at least until it transferred to the Indian Navy. This ship has been commissioned in the RN and IN for 49 years this year, much longer then it was ever expected for this ship to be in service.

yeah thats why the ship has to return to port to undergo repairs so often.

[Salty Dog]

Latest Vikramaditya/Gorshkov pics (http://picasaweb.google.ru/R.Igor.W/UfeDDK#)
Dated 10/10/2008

A compilation of photos showing the evolution of the Gorshkov to the current Vikramaditya. Looks like the outcome is promising.

[AegisFC]

Latest Vikramaditya/Gorshkov pics (http://picasaweb.google.ru/R.Igor.W/UfeDDK#)
Dated 10/10/2008

A compilation of photos showing the evolution of the Gorshkov to the current Vikramaditya. Looks like the outcome is promising.

Excellent find! She really was in poor condition in some of those older pics.

[StevoJH]

Excellent find! She really was in poor condition in some of those older pics.

And if you look at photos 5 and 6 of the superstructure, its looks like parts of her still are.

[Salty Dog]

And if you look at photos 5 and 6 of the superstructure, its looks like parts of her still are.

Actually mate, that's pretty normal for being in a shipyard. All that unsightly mess gets solved rather easily with sandblasting, primer and paint. They'll save that for last.

Interestingly those "spots" on outer side of the bridge are where the paint was burned off from welding or cutting on the inside bulkhead.

I must have spent too much time in shipyards to remember all this.

[zenith_suv]

Hopefully procedures can be speeded up with as the current Aircraft Carrier on INS is well past it's sell by date.

[funtz]

Actually mate, that's pretty normal for being in a shipyard. All that unsightly mess gets solved rather easily with sandblasting, primer and paint. They'll save that for last.

Interestingly those "spots" on outer side of the bridge are where the paint was burned off from welding or cutting on the inside bulkhead.

I must have spent too much time in shipyards to remember all this.


Repair of Gorshkov's hull completed

Vladimir Radyuhin

MOSCOW: The Gorshkov aircraft carrier will be taken out of dry dock shortly following the completion of hull repair and painting, said a shipyard official.


“The ship’s hull has been fully done and painted and scaffolding will be dismantled by the end of October,” deputy director for foreign defence contracts at the Sevmash shipyard Sergei Novosyolov told a local news service on Friday. “We are still to paint the last 10 [out of 116] cisterns.”
After the ship has been taken out of the dry dock and moored at the shipyard, pier engines and other heavy equipment will be installed, he said.


India is yet to approve $1-billion extra in cost overrun of the upgrade Russia asked over and above the initial $700 million after physical verification of the ship earlier this year revealed the need for massive additional refit. This has pushed back the Gorshkov delivery date from 2008 to 2012.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/18/stories/2008101851791800.htm

So what do you make of this, Work done or just ploys to get some money released?

[Salty Dog]

http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/18/stories/2008101851791800.htm

So what do you make of this, Work done or just ploys to get some money released?

Final completion is still far into the future. What the article mentions, and is supported by the photos, is that the "outer hull" has been painted and the ship ready to be floated pierside. This is normal for ships in overhaul or fitting out. It can then spend an infinite period pierside until all work is completed.

Referring to the photos again, we can only see the outer hull and outer superstructure, the latter still in need of it's primer and paint. What we do not see are the interior spaces which in a warship are very complex with miles and miles of piping and wiring runs. Here is the root of why this ship is in the midst of delays and cost overruns. Problems we can not see in the photos, however, believe me they are there, inside this ship.

[StevoJH]

Final completion is still far into the future. What the article mentions, and is supported by the photos, is that the "outer hull" has been painted and the ship ready to be floated pierside. This is normal for ships in overhaul or fitting out. It can then spend an infinite period pierside until all work is completed.

Referring to the photos again, we can only see the outer hull and outer superstructure, the latter still in need of it's primer and paint. What we do not see are the interior spaces which in a warship are very complex with miles and miles of piping and wiring runs. Here is the root of why this ship is in the midst of delays and cost overruns. Problems we can not see in the photos, however, believe me they are there, inside this ship.

I was having a look on google map at northern Russia and saw Kutzenov and a Kirov near Murmansk, with two Kirov's and a pair of Typhoon's docked at the shipyard where the ex-Gorshkov is located.

One thing that struck me, is the actual "dry dock" where the carrier is. Is that whole basin floodable? because it seems like a massive amount of effort, and looks like nothing you see at any of the UK shipyards (unless the basins at Portmouth and Rosyth can be emptied, and i didn't see anything similar when i looked at Norfolk either.

[funtz]

Final completion is still far into the future. What the article mentions, and is supported by the photos, is that the "outer hull" has been painted and the ship ready to be floated pierside. This is normal for ships in overhaul or fitting out. It can then spend an infinite period pierside until all work is completed.

Referring to the photos again, we can only see the outer hull and outer superstructure, the latter still in need of it's primer and paint. What we do not see are the interior spaces which in a warship are very complex with miles and miles of piping and wiring runs. Here is the root of why this ship is in the midst of delays and cost overruns. Problems we can not see in the photos, however, believe me they are there, inside this ship.

Don't know about the piping part, the wiring part was said to be in need of 700km later revised to 2500kms,
So that work will be done when the ship is floating?

[AegisFC]

One thing that struck me, is the actual "dry dock" where the carrier is. Is that whole basin floodable? because it seems like a massive amount of effort, and looks like nothing you see at any of the UK shipyards (unless the basins at Portmouth and Rosyth can be emptied, and i didn't see anything similar when i looked at Norfolk either.

That is what it looks like, but all you would have to do is seal the end of the basin and then just pump out the water.

[StevoJH]

That is what it looks like, but all you would have to do is seal the end of the basin and then just pump out the water.

I was just thinking about how much water you would need to pump out everytime you wanted to empty it.