Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[swerve]

...
It is very important that such payoffs/bribes are controlled through harsh steps, these guys walk away with a lot of money that can be utilized well, i hope that if the Court finds that the defense firms involved are found guilty, the whole deal is scrapped and all the money deposited back with the government, along with a 50 year ban on defense deals with the firms involved....

That will only work if the corrupt officers & officials involved are punished severely. If the only way to have your bid considered is to pay bribes, then a ban on the companies will have no effect, since not offering bribes will cause them to be banned . . . .

Corruption only works if someone inside the system is corrupt, & can only be stamped out by punishing those who take or solicit bribes. On the day when a foreign firm can hand over details of an attempt to solicit a bribe and 1) the bribe-taker is punished, & 2) the firm that shopped him is rewarded, you're making progress. In the current atmosphere, I suspect that every bidder has to offer inducements, or their bids will languish forever at the bottom of an in-tray.

[funtz]

That will only work if the corrupt officers & officials involved are punished severely. If the only way to have your bid considered is to pay bribes, then a ban on the companies will have no effect, since not offering bribes will cause them to be banned . . . .

Corruption only works if someone inside the system is corrupt, & can only be stamped out by punishing those who take or solicit bribes. On the day when a foreign firm can hand over details of an attempt to solicit a bribe and 1) the bribe-taker is punished, & 2) the firm that shopped him is rewarded, you're making progress. In the current atmosphere, I suspect that every bidder has to offer inducements, or their bids will languish forever at the bottom of an in-tray.

Once the charges are proven in accordance with the law of the state the officials face a terminated carrier and the time in the Big House, that is all that can be done, its a crime for which the state has laws and they can not be exceeded (hanging a guy is equally repulsive).
And there in lies the problem, these are not the easiest of charges to prove in a court of law. Once the money trail is found the work is done, of course you are still in a nation of a billion people with a legal system that is jammed packed.

Corruption will always exist sadly, its in human nature, however the point where it becomes a threat to the state must be avoided.

Corruption only works in the lack of accountability and transparency, when they are lacking, all humans take the easy road. This has worked all sectors where it has been introduced (accountability and transparency that is). Rest will take care of itself (imagine if a firm that has been snubbed in a contract due to corruption is provided with all the instruments to prove that there were irregularities).

That is why i think the delay that the implementation of these steps (accountability and transparency) might make into the procurement process has to be accepted for now. Lets see how the MMRCA acquisition goes ahead.

[funtz]

Navy submarine collides with merchant vessel north of Mumbai
Josy Joseph
Thursday, January 10, 2008 08:26 IST

INS Sindhughosh was taking part in fleet-level war games

NEW DELHI: One of the Indian Navy’s most advanced submarines, the INS Sindhughosh, rammed into a foreign merchant vessel in a freak accident during war games in the Arabian sea on January 7, raising concerns about safety and sailing precautions.

Some sources speculated whether an indigenously developed hydro-acoustal sonar, USHUS, malfunctioned, causing the accident.

Sources said the accident took place north of Mumbai when the Sindhughosh, one of few submarines of the Indian Navy that can launch anti-ship and anti-land missiles, was taking part in fleet-level war games.

More than one source told DNA that the damage was limited to the submarine’s fin. The 53 crew on board had a miraculous escape since the “rest of the hull was not damaged”, a source said.

But all of them admitted it was a “grievous error” for a submarine capable of prowling undetected underwater.

Sources told DNA that the Sindhughosh, a diesel-powered Kilo class submarine fitted with Klub class missiles, will need a few months of repairs. The Sindhughosh had undergone extensive refit in Russia and joined service late in 2005.

The navy spokesman refused to either confirm or deny the incident. An officer tried to play down the incident saying, “it was a minor accident.”

The submarine was apparently travelling at periscope depth when it rammed into the merchant vessel. The submarine managed to get back to Mumbai without any assistance, sources said.

An inquiry was in progress in Mumbai.

Many Navy sources admitted that the accident raises serious questions about the precautions taken while sailing a submarine. By military convention, a submarine doesn’t publicise its routes so its safety and secrecy are its own business.

This is the second instance of an Indian submarine meeting with a freak accident in recent years. A few years ago, another submarine rammed into an unidentified ship while it was surfacing off Goa.


I would have imagined going around in a submarine in such busy routes will always be dangerous to say the least. Thankfully no one suffered any inujries, the naval budget yes, but no humans.

This whole thing about sonar malfunctioning, how much does it say about the whole thing,
how quite can a merchant vessel be?
Sonars, how do they react in commercial routes?
why surface on/near a commercial route?

Quoting the article
"Many Navy sources admitted that the accident raises serious questions about the precautions taken while sailing a submarine."

So what are these precautions?

At least the navy is not so gloomy

The navy spokesman refused to either confirm or deny the incident. An officer tried to play down the incident saying, "it was a minor accident."

So that makes me wonder if the navy said it was a minor accident, how on earth did people come up with this report?

[shashank2008nai]

:lul INDIA IS SOON TO FLOAT THE BIGGEST TENDER OF $10 BILLION FOR INDUCTION OF 126 MULTIROLE FIGHTERS! MANY MAJOR AVIATION COMPANYS ARE COMPETING TO EARN THIS CONTRACT. MY QUESTION IS WHICH PLANE SHOULD INDIA CHOOSE. IS IT THE EURO FIGHTER TYPHOON, F-16 FIGHTING FALCON, F-18 HORNET,SWEDISH GRIPPEN,ETC. WHICH ONE.PLEASE POST YOUR COMMENTS. THIS IS SOMETHING JUST LIKE A SURVEY. GO FOR IT.


SHASHANK

[Mod edit]
Shashank, please do not post in all capital letters. See the rules, & particularly rule 23.
http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
Also, this post is in a naval thread. It should be in the military aviation/air forces forum, where you will find appropriate threads.

PJI

PS. Welcome to the forum.
[/Mod edit]

[contedicavour]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_Russia_yet_to_reach_breakthrough_on_Groshkov/articleshow/2686282.cms

This is interesting, 1.5 billion USD extra, might as well stick to the old name and keep it in the russian navy the Mig-29K is already there to fly around in russian colours. Not much use having them on the ground.

This Gorshkov deal is a never ending nightmare... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

[AegisFC]

This Gorshkov deal is a never ending nightmare... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

I doubt the US would sell any of its old Carriers (too similar in layout to the CVN's, one of the reasons why none of the Forestalls are museums yet) and the JFK was in sorry state when the US got rid of her, her engineering plant never was the most reliable and all of her cats and all of her arrestor wires were broke, it would take a lot of work to get the old girl into any sort of fighting state, then again the Indians could just weld a big ski jump on her and fix the arrestor wires and call it a day.

[swerve]

... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

Too worn out, too expensive to operate, too big a crew, too big for any of Indias naval docks, no ski jump, & India has no catapult-capable aircraft in service or on order.

[funtz]

This Gorshkov deal is a never ending nightmare... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

A lot of Russian equipment has Israeli stuff of it. :unknown

No to ex-US carriers for all the response above, and the general fear of second hand carrier deals that must be installed by now. The relations with the USA are just getting a good start, hardly at the strategic partner levels.

The Russian offer must have sounded too good to turn down (initially), A Aircraft carrier to plug the gap till the Indigenous Aircraft carrier came into being + Mig planes + refit.
The blame for not having a independent assessment of the Russian offer lies with the Ministry of defense, there is really not that much money to go around, the navy should use its share in the most effective manner, otherwise no point crying about lack of funds, a professional service that has high standards should accept that (at-least). However from the Civilian point, it looks like the Russians conned us (so called strategic partners).

Given that this has shown an absolute lack of ability to even judge the amount of work needed on the ship,
How would the Russians come out with a effective warship, if somehow the deal progressed?

At the point when the deal is delayed to a stage when the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier project and the Gorshkov have the same deadline, the very need of this AC might be questioned by the navy, after all 2.7 billion dollars can be utilized in much better ways by the Navy, or will the talked about Russian help -cooperation in other projects drag it into operational status with the Indian Navy. As even with the Indigenous Aircraft carrier project the Mig-29K will be the primary aircraft which will be operated, the LCA project even on the ground is not the best thing to ever have happened, on the sea the range and the weapons load should present some problems.

[contedicavour]

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't aware the Kennedy was so worn out. After all the USN has been retiring recent ships at such a pace... even sinking recent LHAs that I would have loved as second hand backup for my country's navy (I'm talking of the Tarawas)... that I thought the Kennedy could still have operated for some ten years (the Indian Navy is still using the 1959 Hermes-Vikrant...).

cheers

[Sea Toby]

As for getting an aircraft carrier, instead of buying aging carriers, maybe India should buy new, the Queen Elizabeth class would fit in really well. The last mid-sized carrier available was the ex-Foch. Brazil quickly snatched her. I know a Queen Elizabeth would be expensive, but she could last 50 years or more, not 10 or at most 20 years. Another ship order besides a French one would help the U.K. and France buy theirs. Otherwise, India has no choice but to convert Russian ships, as was planned. Unfortunately, India wasted a good 10 years deciding to go forward with the plan. Now, the Russians want more money to finish her. Either spend some more on her, on start over with the British, or build one at home, which would probably cost more than building a QE.

Yes, an ex-American Tarawa could be available very soon, but if they were purchased on the cheap, they would only be a stop gap, a short range fix. They are over 30 years in age, and much like the Foch, won't last long. Its my opinion if India wants a carrier, either pay more to finish off the Russian conversion, or buy a new QE. Frankly, I like the QE solution best. If the United Kingdom and France were able to sell one abroad, it would help both nations afford other support ships.

[harryriedl]

As for getting an aircraft carrier, instead of buying aging carriers, maybe India should buy new, the Queen Elizabeth class would fit in really well. The last mid-sized carrier available was the ex-Foch. Brazil quickly snatched her. I know a Queen Elizabeth would be expensive, but she could last 50 years or more, not 10 or at most 20 years. Another ship order besides a French one would help the U.K. and France buy theirs. Otherwise, India has no choice but to convert Russian ships, as was planned. Unfortunately, India wasted a good 10 years deciding to go forward with the plan. Now, the Russians want more money to finish her. Either spend some more on her, on start over with the British, or build one at home, which would probably cost more than building a QE.

Yes, an ex-American Tarawa could be available very soon, but if they were purchased on the cheap, they would only be a stop gap, a short range fix. They are over 30 years in age, and much like the Foch, won't last long. Its my opinion if India wants a carrier, either pay more to finish off the Russian conversion, or buy a new QE. Frankly, I like the QE solution best. If the United Kingdom and France were able to sell one abroad, it would help both nations afford other support ships.
the QE style design has been brought up as a solution a 2025 requirement for a carrier the problem is that Gorshkov and the ADS they are already deeply into construction and would be unfordable to scrap both/or one as they have spent in excess on 1 billion+ on each

[Musashi_kenshin]

As for getting an aircraft carrier, instead of buying aging carriers, maybe India should buy new, the Queen Elizabeth class would fit in really well.

If India has $US 4-5 billion for one aircraft carrier it can go for it - it wouldn't get it any cheaper (doubt the Indian yards could make one that big).

[funtz]

wont it be better to invest that money into the Indigenous Aircraft carrier
project? Afterall its being build with close ooperation of the Indian Navy.

That much money could really put the project on a fast lane, the design could evolve with the follow on ships under the project, and do a lot of good for the ship building industry.
As Mr. sea toby said, this gorshkov thing should have been sealed almost a decade ago (with a negative response).

[Tasman]

I agree with those who believe that India would get better value out of acquiring new build carriers rather than spending a fortune on modernising or completing old ships with comparatively limited lifespans. Whether a QE type or an indigenous design is the best way to go might come down to cost and how much benefit there would be for Indian shipbuilders.

The problem at the moment is the amount already invested (both time and money) on Vikramaditya so new build ships may have to wait a while yet.

Tas

[funtz]

I think the question of resources must have been the big factor in the previous second hand aircraft carriers. This whole refit gorshkov/vikramaditya was a way to plug the gap which is on the last mile of its journey towards becoming a white elephent (or may be its there already).

As for other carriers, the investment into the Indeginous Aircrat carrier project, and the navy coming out with suggestions/plans to improve the domestic shipbuilding industry, the road that will be travelled is clear.

Some old news

INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/IAC.html)
Project Update: Construction commenced with plate cutting on 11 April 2005. The keel is planned to be laid down in 2008. In an information session in Parliament, on 16 May 2007, Defence Minister A K Antony stated that induction of a third aircraft carrier is envisioned by 2017. He added that a decision to construct another vessel can be made only after the construction of the first ship has progressed beyond a certain state. This would suggest a keel laying date of post October 2010, which is the tentative launch date of the first ship. In an interview (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Navy_chief_Russia_has_to_honour_Gorshkov_deal_/articleshow/2586598.cms)to the Times of India, dated 01 December 2007, the Chief of Naval Staff - Admiral Sureesh Mehta - stated that the second IAC is already on the drawing board and at least three such vessels are planned. The Admiral also indicated that the first IAC will not be delayed beyond 2012, contrary to reports of a revised delivery schedule of 2014 - 2015.



Navy indigenous aircraft carrier on way (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/938134.cms)
27 Nov 2004, 1407 hrs IST,PTI

PANAJI: Indian Navy has started construction of an indigenous aircraft carrier with a 40,000 tonne displacement capacity at an estimated cost of Rs 3,000 crore, Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash said on Saturday.

"Besides acquiring the 'Gorshkov' aircraft carrier from Russia, the Indian navy has also started construction -- at its Cochin Shipyard -- of a totally indigenous aircraft carrier with a capacity of 25 aircraft," Admiral Prakash told reporters after the 69th passing out parade at the Naval Academy in Panaji.

"The government has sanctioned Rs 3,000 crore so far," he said.

The way defence projects go, this might become another one of those long drawn out projects occupying the shipyard for some time.

This Gorshkov thing was supposed to be a government to government deal,

so my question is
How do such deals happen?
Does the Military have any say in this, or is this strictly a government affair?

[funtz]

This was in the paper today.

India eyes $2b defence deal with US
29 Jan 2008, 0002 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: After joint combat exercises to develop "interoperability", the Indo-US military tango is now firmly waltzing into the arms purchase arena as well. With the over $1-billion deal for six C-130J 'Super Hercules' aircraft in the bag, an even bigger defence contract is now headed the US way.

Sources on Monday said the defence ministry and Boeing have begun the "commercial price negotiations" for the purchase of eight P-8i long-range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) patrol aircraft, with anti-submarine warfare capabilities, for the Indian Navy. Unlike the Super Hercules deal, which as reported by TOI earlier is a direct 'foreign military sale' contract under a government-to-government arrangement, the P-8i has emerged the victor in the global LRMR sweepstakes held by India to plug operational gaps in its maritime snooping abilities.

The P-8i, based on the Boeing-737 commercial airliner, has out-performed the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company's A-319 maritime patrol aircraft and other contenders in meeting 'qualitative requirements' in the technical trials held by the Navy. "The contract will be signed soon. The first P-8i will be delivered within 48 months, that is in mid-2012 and all the eight by mid-2015. They will replace the Navy's eight aging Tupolev-142Ms," said a source.

India, incidentally, had earlier rejected the US offer to lease two P-3C Orion reconnaissance aircraft under a $133-million contract. India, of course, remains unhappy over the American decision to sell eight more P-3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan, which already has two such planes in its inventory. Once it's inked, the P-8i deal worth around $2 billion will be the biggest-ever defence contract with the US, a minor player in the lucrative Indian arms market so far.

......

Apart from the defence deals, with US secretary of defence Robert Gates slated to arrive in India on February 25-26, the two countries are getting ready to sign agreements like the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), Container Security Initiative (CSI) and the end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment. The Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) — under which Indian and American militaries propose to provide each other with logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft — has, however, been put on the backburner due to opposition of the Left.

CPM leader Prakash Karat has termed LSA "far more dangerous than the nuclear deal" in its implications. But despite Left opposition to military ties with the US, the two nations have already scheduled at least five joint combat exercises in 2008. "Procurements is just one facet in the overall robust defence engagement with the US.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_eyes_2b_defence_deal_with_US/articleshow/2738886.cms

What is this "end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment"?:confused:

Is it in regards with who uses the equipment, or some sort of restriction on the situations where it can be used?

And how does this apply to defense equipments, if the Americans are concerned about few of the planes being shipped off to Russia, then why on earth are they selling/proposing to sell their front line technology?

or will the US stuff be downgraded in some way?

2 Billion for 8 aircrafts, why nothing comes cheap, does it.

Replacing the Tupolev-142s is going to be something, i remember navy people used to say it could go to south african coast and come back with out refueling midway.

This Aircraft is not in production yet, so how did it meet the 'qualitative requirements' in the technical trials?

According to the Boeing page on the P-8A Poseidon


Flight-test delivery of first aircraft, 2009
Initial operational capability and expected full-production decision, 2013
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/index.html

So what is the Navy buying, A paper plane, should they not wait till 2010-13 to consider the plane? especially considering that all defence deals seem to have delays as a part of development.
The negotiations for the price might well run and go beyond the 2012-13 time frame, so i guess that will pull things back a bit, still does not make sense to commit to this plane so soon, its not like the plane will get all booked up if we wait too long. And this is like what the Midway stage, hence no great input from Indian navy or technology exchange (its like 8 planes), might as well see how things go.
As this was not a government to government deal, at least Boeing will have to invest the offsets back.

and this is what it says on the Boeing pdf about this plane

India is currently considering acquisition of the P-8I. A derivative of the P-8A designed specifically for the unique requirements of the Indian Navy.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/docs/P-8A_overview.pdf

more time delays to be expected?

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this link,it contains the image of the nstl float during the indian republic day parade,this float displays the first models of the two indigenously designed torpedos,the varunastra heavy weight torpedo and the tal light weight torpedo.

here check out this link:

http://pib.nic.in/photo/2008/Jan/l2008012616664.jpg

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting link,it seems that drdo is now developing a multipurpose underwater unmanned vessel for the indian navy.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200801282240.htm

DRDO developing unmanned underwater vehicle

Chennai (PTI): The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a unmanned underwater vehicle, which could defuse mines in the sea and attack enemy submarines, DRDO chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here on Monday.
Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a science exhibition, he said the DRDO had already provided an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) to the Indian Air Force. It had now decided to develop an unmanned underwater vehicle, which would be of immense use to the Indian Navy during wars.
"The prototype for the underwater vehicle is being developed and we will be able to come out with a final product in five years", he said.
The Exhibition was organised by the Tamil Nadu Science and Techonology centre in collaboration with the Madras Science Association.
On Brahmos, developed by DRDO, he said work on the second phase of Brahmos will begin soon. "We will design the supersonic cruise missile to cross the speed of five to seven times the speed of sound even before other countries can think of it". He said the Centre was allocating Rs 5,000 crore every year for DRDO and would be increased by 10 per cent, reaching Rs 7,500 crore at the end of five year plan.

[A.Mookerjee]

The trick in making any sea faring vessel which is heavy on the purse strings, is to make your difficulty into an advantage. How can we build a Technologically Superior Navy, under any circumstance? Perhaps, if we look at the problem, the ease is in the difficulty, or in other words, the solution is in the problem. When one looks at problems, one is missing out on the solution. When any technology is introduced, which is new, it is equally important to explore the origins of the technology, as it is to develop the technology. This is if one is new to the technology.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this article,it seems,that indian goverment wants to start naval ship building operations at the hindustan shipyards limited,and are also interested in joint shipbuilding cooperation with south korea(they build some realy beautiful ships),i wish they would acquire the south korean kdx2 or kdx3 frigates for their p17a frigate acquisition programme.

here is the link and article:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1148187

Plans to invest Rs1,000 cr in mordenisation
MUMBAI: State-owned ship-building and ship-repair major Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) is set to add naval ships to its order book.
The defence ministry is keen to place orders for building naval ships at HSL and a decision is expected by next month, a source said.
Currently, state-owned Mazgaon Docks Ltd, Garden Reach, Kolkata, Goa Shipyard and Cochin Shipyard build most of the naval ships. Among the private firms, ABG Shipyard has built some coast guard ships, while Bharati Shipyard has built some vessels for the Indian Navy.
India’s shipbuilding capability is saturated with shipyards booked to capacity. However, there is demand for more warships and small vessels from the Indian Navy as a large number of old vessels will be scrapped in the next five years. So much so, the defence ministry is also keen on shipbuilding cooperation with South Korea.
In this context, placing a few orders with HSL will ease the pressure somewhat.
Meanwhile, HSL, one of the oldest shipyards in the country, is working towards optimising its existing capacity to increase efficiency and double turnover.
It plans to invest Rs 1,000 crore in modernisation of the facilities by acquiring more cranes, improving material handling, automation and improved infrastructure, in the next five years.
“We have applied for a package from the government to fund the project and would raise the remaining amount through debt,” said Ajit Tewari, chairman and managing director, HSL. The shipyard is already in talks with banks such as Indian Bank and State Bank of India for debt.
“We would be investing Rs 400 crore in the next 2-3 years, of which Rs 200 crore would be used to acquire heavier cranes, up to 900 tonnes, on an immediate basis,” Tewari added.
HSL, with a building order book of Rs2,000 crore, has a capacity to build four ships (up to 80,000 tonnes capacity) a year. With the modern machinery and efficient activities, the yard expects to build 8 ships per year and also assist its ship repair division, which has an order book of Rs 200 crore at present.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,great news here ,indian coast guard is to acquire upto 6 maritime patrol aircrafts.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=540638



Coast Guard to acquire six maritime surveillance aircraft

NEW DELHI, JAN 31 (PTI)
Apprehending that security threats from the high seas could increase once key projects like Setu Samundram channel get under way, the Coast Guard plans to acquire six multi-mission maritime surveillance aircraft.
"Such aircraft would give us the capability to mount round the clock vigil around our coastline with eyes from the skies," Vice Admiral R F Contractor, Director General of the force, told mediapersons here today.
"We already have mounted a strong vigil on the country's southern coastal waters and projects like the Setu Samundram could bring in more security problems," he said.
But the Coast Guard chief said security measures would be put in place once the channel becomes operative. He said similar security apparatus has been put in place in other channels like Panama Canal, Malacca straits as well Suez Canal.
Asked if Coastguard had put its views on security threats perceptions before the Government, Contractor said both the Navy and Coastguard had been asked to give their views by the Government as a prelude to the project being cleared.
Contractor said that Coast Guard had mounted a round the clock aerial and sea vigil in the Palk Bay as well as Gulf of Mannar to guard against infiltration of Sri Lankan armed cadres into India.
Contrary to speculation, Contractor said that number of Tamil migrants from Sri Lanka had dropped this year, after almost touching a high of 16,619 last year. "Security centres are active in all places where migrants boats berth and antecedents of all refugees are being checked".
On reports of LTTE Cadres sneaking into Kerala, Coast Guard chief said he had no such information. He said in 2007 only 3,779 Tamil migrants had been officially registered. "We have aircraft keeping a 24-hour vigil over the southern coastal areas as well two warships deployed permanently there".
As a means to check security threats from the high seas, the Coast Guard chief said already 41 marine police stations of the proposed 82 had been set up.
"We have trained 862 marine policemen from various coastal states," He said. Under the Government scheme, it is proposed to set up 68 such police stations on the mainland, four in Lakshawadeep and 10 in Andaman and Nicobar islands.
Contractor said "Coast Guard had proposed to various State Government to enlist ex-servicemen, retired naval personnel or men from Para-military forces for the marine police force as these personnel were already trained in use of infantry firepower".
"We are taking these marine police personnel on board Coast Guard ships to help them grow sea legs," he said.
On his force's expansion plans, he said the six maritime reconnaissance aircraft would be inducted by next three to four years. Coastguard would be the second force after navy to induct such spyplanes. Navy is currently evaluating bids from Boeing and European consortium EADS for its plans to acquire eight much longer reach maritime reconnaissance aircraft.
"We plans to have much more compact aircraft," the Coast Guard Chief said.
"By 2012 we propose to have force level of 217 warships and 74 aircraft," Contractor said. At present, he said, 24 warships of various variants were under construction in Government and private shipyards. These include two Advanced Offshore patrol vessels, 11 interceptor boats, 3 pollution control vessels and five inshore vessels.
The induction of three more pollution control ships would give the Coast Guard capability to fight oil spills ranging from 700 to 10,000 tonnes of oil.
Coast Guard also plans to acquire twin engined helicopters.
Contractor said that Coast Guard had been appointed as the focal point in the country's efforts to combat piracy and Armed Robbery in the high seas under the Regional Agreement on Combating Piracy and Armed Robbery against ships in Asia (ReCAAP). The agreement involves 16 countries of the region.

[rickusn]

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14598535Print (javascript:openPrintWindow('id=14598535&ctid=2&lid=1');) | Mail (javascript:openMailWindow();) | Post your comments (javascript: if(document.getElementById('location')) { document.getElementById('location').scrollIntoView (true); } call_div('comments', 'id=14598535');) | Rate this Feature (javascript:openRateitWindow('c_id=14598535&ct_id=2&c_text=India+to+pay+more+for+Russian+aircraft+carr ier&lid=1');)IANSIndia to pay more for Russian aircraft carrierFriday, 01 February , 2008, 19:36
New Delhi: India is reconciled to paying at least a part of the additional $1.2 billion that Russia is demanding for an aircraft carrier the Indian Navy has purchased for $1.5 billion.

"The original negotiations were sketchy. This has forced us to re-examine the entire issue," a defence ministry official said here Friday.
"We will have to arrive at a mutually agreed price. It's hard to say at this stage exactly how much more we will have to pay," the official added, speaking on condition of anonymity given the sensitive nature of the subject.
After protracted negotiations, India had in 2004 agreed to purchase the Admiral Gorshkov, now renamed INS Vikramaditya. If the contracted amount, approximately $974 million was to be spent on upgrading and refitting the ship, which has been mothballed since a devastating fire in 1994.
The remaining $526 million was meant for the 16 MiG-29 jets and six Kamov Ka-31 attack and reconnaissance anti-submarine helicopters that will be deployed on the vessel.
Last year, the Russians arbitrarily raised the price by $1.2 billion, saying the work involved in refurbishment had been grossly underestimated and much more would require to be done before the ship was made seaworthy.
India has hitherto been maintaining that the vessel was purchased on a fixed price contract. There now seems to be a paradigm shift in thinking, with the defence ministry official agreeing with the Russian assessment.
"When the engineers went in, they realised a lot more work would have to be done, particularly in the cabling, which would have to be almost entirely replaced," he pointed out.
"It was also discovered that the ship would have to undergo extensive sea trials after the refit and this alone would cost crores (millions) of rupees," the official added.
Asked why the sea trials had not been factored into the original contract, the official admitted to tardiness in the negotiations.
"Yes, they were sketchy but we have to accept that and move ahead," the official maintained.
It is to discuss these and other matters that Defence Secretary Vijay Singh will be leading a high-powered delegation to Moscow on Feb 19. The team will include Secretary (Defence Production) Pradeep and senior officers of the Indian Navy and the defence ministry.
Singh, it is learnt, will visit the Russian shipyard where the Vikramaditya is being refurbished to study whether adequate manpower is available for the job.
This issue has arisen because of reports that the shipyard has transferred the bulk of its workforce to a new nuclear-powered submarine it is building.
Singh and his team will also spend a few days in Moscow for price negotiations with their Russian counterparts.
Defence Minister A.K. Antony had raised the price issue with his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov during his visit to Moscow last October. Two teams, one from the Indian Navy and another from the defence ministry, were then set up to discuss the issue further. The vessel was originally scheduled for delivery in late 2007 or early 2008. This was then pushed back to 2012. Even now, there is no certainty as to when the ship would arrive. "Assuming the negotiations are completed by the end of this year, the refit will take three years from that, followed by a year of sea trials," the defence ministry official explained.

[Rish]

found this to be interesting. human error or faulty equipment?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=9fe0bba0-6efe-4fd0-9510-178d639cd1f4&&Headline=5+killed+in+accident+on+INS+Jalashwa

Five sailors were killed and three injured in an accident on the Indian Navy's newly-acquired troop carrier INS Jalashwa during an exercise in the Bay of Bengal on Friday evening.

"Medical resources within the fleet have been concentrated to treat the injured. The ship is proceeding to Port Blair, where the deceased and injured personnel would be brought ashore.The vessel, the former USS Trenton that was inducted into the Indian Navy last September, is now heading for Port Blair in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, where the victims and the injured would be brought ashore, an official statement said.

"The Indian Navy regrets to inform the occurrence of an accident on board INS Jalshawa on the evening of Feb 1 while the ship was at sea, engaged in exercise with the fleet units between Visakhapatnam and Port Blair," the statement said.

"While the cause of the accident and other details are being ascertained, we can confirm with deep sorrow that five sailors lost their lives and three personnel are injured," the statement said.

"Medical resources within the fleet have been concentrated to treat the injured. The ship is proceeding to Port Blair, where the deceased and injured personnel would be brought ashore.

"Relevant additional details would be made available on receipt. A board of inquiry has been constituted," the statement added.

Defence Minister AK Antony has expressed his deep regret at the loss of lives, the statement said.

[funtz]

found this to be interesting. human error or faulty equipment?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=9fe0bba0-6efe-4fd0-9510-178d639cd1f4&&Headline=5+killed+in+accident+on+INS+Jalashwa


This is really sad, Confined spaces are always dangerous in Industrial settings any type of fumes (hazardous or not) can cause an accident (Oxygen deficiency/airborne toxic substances or flammable gases), these things are well known and steps are taken to ensure that any such space is safe to enter before any work is done,


The five naval personnel who were killed on Friday night on board warship INS Jalashwa, died due to inadvertently inhaling hydrogen sulphide gas, leaking from one of the compartments of the vessel.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/feb/02navy.htm

H2S is very toxic, exposure to high concentrations can causes immediate death. even exposure to small quantities can cause serious injuries. It can cause paralysis.

This is weird, working in confined spaces (i assume a ship to be one), and that too in close proximity of such chemicals, it is not wise to be unprotected, or not to have gas detectors installed to warn the people who go into work in such spaces.

What are the general safety measures that the people in the Navy are required to take in such cases?
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14598535
IANSIndia to pay more for Russian aircraft carrierFriday, 01 February , 2008, 19:36
New Delhi: India is reconciled to paying at least a part of the additional $1.2 billion that Russia is demanding for an aircraft carrier the Indian Navy has purchased for $1.5 billion.


This is the only solution for this problem, till both sides compromise nothing can come of it, It seems the final agreement has not been signed,

The Russians should try to be bullish, after all they can use this carrier themselves, and i guess through some active steps make sure that the Indian government pays for a part of it. They should be interested in the carrier for their navy. The plane (MIG-29K) has already been developed to quite modern standards.

[ju87]

Why was there H2S gas in such amounts in a troop transport ship? :confused:

[kato]

Why was there H2S gas in such amounts in a troop transport ship? :confused:

Two words: Sewage tanks.

In particular on a ship with several hundred people on them.

[Firehorse]

The secret undersea weapon

Sandeep Unnithan
January 17, 2008

Located up the winding shipping channel in Visakhapatnam harbour is a secret, completely enclosed facility known only as the Shipbuilding Centre (SBC).
Inside this dry dock, nearly 50m below ground level, is a cylindrical black shape, which is as tall as a two-storey building and at 104 m in length, is longer than the Qutub Minar lying on its side.
Technicians working on it confess to a surge of national pride: India’s first nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine or SSBN is arguably its greatest engineering project.
For over a quarter of a century, the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), smaller than the USS Alabama from Crimson Tide, has been among the most highly-classified government programmes, if not the most delayed.
Officials still refuse to confirm the existence of the project or the sea-based ballistic missile. A decade after India came out of the nuclear closet in the sands of Pokhran, it has moved some tantalising steps closer to realising the third and possibly the toughest of the three legs of the triad enunciated in its nuclear doctrine: a sea-based deterrent or a secure underwater platform for launching nuclear weapons.
“Things are developing as per schedule,” Defence Minister A.K. Antony recently said of ATV. Early last month, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta was the first government official to not only confirm its existence but also lay down a timeframe: “It is a DRDO project and a technology demonstrator. It is somewhere near completion and will be in the water in two years.”
The admiral had reason to feel confident about the project. Just last month, an 80MW nuclear reactor, smaller than a bus, was pushed into the hull of the submarine and successfully integrated—a milestone in the project approved by the then prime minister Indira Gandhi in 1970.
By April 2009, the submarine will be launched and will begin sea trials before it is inducted into the navy. The goal is to field a fleet of three SSBNs by 2015, one in reserve and two on patrol, each carrying 12 nucleartipped ballistic missiles (Artist’s impression of India’s nuclear-propelled ballistic missile submarine) .
Possibly the last “gift” to India from the now-extinct Soviet Union, it was designed with Russian assistance in the late ’80s. Based on an entirely new design, the 6,000 tonne submarine (not the elderly Charlie class N-sub as thought earlier) will make India the world’s sixth nation to operate a “boomer”.
Part of the acceleration in the programme has to do with the rapid buildup of Chinese nuclear forces. China operates 10 nuclear submarines, and in the past year, has fielded as many as three new Jin-class SSBNs, each carrying 12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM). “Given the growing military asymmetry with China, India’s need for a reliable nuclear deterrent that can survive a first strike has never been greater,” says strategic expert Brahma Chellaney.
ATV is in line with India’s nuclear doctrine enunciated in 1999, which calls for its nuclear forces to be effective, enduring, diverse, flexible and responsive to the requirements in accordance with the concept of credible minimum deterrence. The doctrine calls for high survivability against surprise attacks and for a rapid punitive response.
A nuclear submarine that can remain submerged almost indefinitely and cannot be detected underwater, therefore, meets all these criteria and offers an almost invulnerable launch platform for nuclear weapons.
For a country like India with a no-first use policy, it is vital because it prevents a potential adversary from launching a crippling first strike that can knock out all nuclear weapons (see box). It also allows India to inflict considerable damage to the aggressor.
“One submarine carries at least 12 missiles with Multiple Independently Targetable Reentry Vehicles, which could mean as many as 96 warheads. When such a submarine goes out to the sea, that many missiles are removed from our own territory. The enemy’s targeting of that many sites gets neutralised,” says Rear Admiral (retired) Raja Menon.
ATV, with its suitably muted acronym, was a euphemism for a longdelayed project. Shrouded in obsessive secrecy for decades, it has been under the direct supervision of the prime minister, who also chairs ATV’s apex committee.
Nearly 200 naval officers and technicians are directly involved in the project that is managed by a vice-admiral who functions out of ATV headquarters in Delhi Cantonment. Funding was never a problem, even during the lean days of defence spending, like in the pre-1990s. An estimated Rs 2,000 crore was spent even before work on the submarine was started.
The excessive secrecy, say experts, was based on a misinterpretation of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT)—that building a nuclear submarine would be a violation. There was, therefore, a lack of accountability, which harmed the project.
Project officials in Vizag are now sealing the reactor with a special shield and plugging in the control systems, turbines and piping. The next few months are critical. After the reactor compartment is sealed, the tail sector— which includes the propeller and the shaft—will be welded in and the submarine will be ready. By April next year, the dry dock will be flooded and the vessel will be officially launched.
After it hits the water, the nuclear reactor will be jump-started and the submarine’s propellers— seven highlyskewed brass blades—will be tested. After the reactor and all its associated control systems are successively proven, the submarine will be towed out of the harbour for extensive sea trials lasting over a year before it is inducted into the navy around 2010.
While the impending launch of ATV is reason for cheer, the actual fielding of a secure second-strike capability is still three years away. This is the time it will take to integrate and successfully test fire the missile from the submarine. Without its nuclear missiles, the submarine is just a platform.
The missile is being concurrently developed under an equally-classified programme. Announcing its successful test in April last year, DRDO chief M. Natarajan called it “a strategic system which I cannot talk about”.
The enigmatic two-stage missile— dubbed K-15 under the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Sagarika (oceanic) project— is a technological breakthrough. Rapidly ejected from the submarine’s launcher by igniting an underwater gas booster, it rises nearly 5 km above the ocean.
When it reaches a pre-determined height, it ignites a solid booster and travels to a range of nearly 750 km. Tested three times from a specially-designed submersible pontoon, the yetto-be-named “naval missile” is another feather in India’s cap.
The 100-member crew, which will man the submarine, is being trained at an indigenously-developed simulator in the School for Advanced Underwater Warfare (SAUW) at the naval base in Vizag. Hands-on training will be done on the INS Chakra, a 12,000-tonne Akula-II class nuclear-powered attack submarine being taken on a 10-year lease from Russia next year.
SBC in Vizag is to become the assembly line for three ATVs, costing a little over Rs 3,000 crore each or the cost of a 37,000 tonne indigenous aircraft carrier built at the Cochin Shipyard.
Larsen and Toubro (L&T) has begun building the hull of the second ATV at its facility in Hazira, to be inducted into the navy by 2012. The SSBN fleet will be housed on the east coast at a new naval base in Rambilli, a few kilometres south of Visakhapatnam, where nearly 3,000 acre of land has been acquired for India’s first strategic base, to be manned entirely by military personnel.
Unlike the narrow single channel in Visakhapatnam, it will offer the nuclear fleet direct access into the sea. The first phase of the project, costing approximately Rs 1,500 crore, will be ready by 2011.
Why has the project taken so long? For a country that built only two conventional submarines of the Germandesigned HDW Type 1500 class in the early ’90s, building a nuclear submarine was the ultimate challenge: a DRDO official sees the learning curve to be the equivalent of a scooter mechanic building a Mercedes.
The key challenge, however, was not in designing or fabricating the hull, but the reactor and containment vessel, which consumes one-tenth (nearly 600 tonne) of the vessel’s total displacement. The hydrodynamics of a vessel with one-tenth of its weight concentrated in one place is a formidable naval engineering challenge, but miniaturising a nuclear reactor the size of a football field to fit inside an 8m enclosure is an even bigger hurdle.
This was among the reasons for the decade-long delay in the project. The nuclear reactor in a submarine generates heat to convert water into saturated steam to turn the submarine’s turbines. Unlike an oilfired boiler, it does not require air to operate. All other parts of the submarine are the same as any steam-powered turbine plant’s.
The reactor operates on uranium enriched to nearly 45 per cent (uranium used in civilian nuclear reactors is less than 5 per cent and bombs use uranium enriched to over 90 per cent).
In 1998, L&T began fabricating the hull of ATV but the struggle with the reactor continued. After BARC designs failed, India bought reactor designs from Russia.
By 2004 the reactor had been built, tested on land at the IGCAR and had gone critical. Its modest size, around 6,000 tonne (the Ohio class SSBN in the movie Crimson Tide weighs over 14,000 tonne), has led experts to call it a “baby boomer”. While the present project ends at three units, defence officials have not ruled out building larger submarines on the basis of national strategic imperatives. These have changed since the conception of the project.
The plan, until late ’80s, was to build an SSN—a fast-moving deep-diving nuclear-powered attack submarine, which would hunt surface ships.

ATV project sites
Like pieces of a complex jigsaw puzzle, ATV project sites are scattered across the country.
Kalpakkam
Indira Gandhi Atomic Research Centre near Chennai fabricates ATV’s light water nuclear reactor.
Visakhapatnam
ATV production line at the Ship Building Centre.
School of Advanced Underwater Warfare (SAUV) for training ATV crews.
Indigenously developed control room simulator.
Evolution of strategic submarine operational doctrines.
Rambilli
Strategic submarine base south of Vizag will be commissioned by 2011.
Delhi
ATV project headquarters.
Ratnahalli
Rare Materials Project near Mysore supplies enriched uranium for ATV reactor.
Hyderabad
Sagarika complex is fabricating and developing SLBM. Project began in 1994.
Balasore
Special underwater launch test platform for test-firing ATV’s missile.
Kochi
Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory developing ATV sensors.
Around the time India leased a Charlie-I class nuclear-powered attack submarine from the Soviet Union, it had already veered towards building a submarine carrying ballistic missiles. The hull design was lengthened and the SSN quietly transformed into an SSBN.
There are, however, some key challenges to be overcome. ATV’s SLBMs have a range of only 750 km, a big leap from its start of 250 km a decade ago, but still smaller than the SLBMs deployed by the Big Five, which boast ranges in excess of 5,000 km. DRDO is working on fielding a submarine launched variant of the 5,000-km Agni III missile, which will give the submarine true striking power and flexibility.
Scientists believe the submarine’s present reactor output of around 80 MW is limited because it imposes operational restrictions on the submarine’s speed and will mean that the reactor will have to function near peak power at most times.
The reactor would also need constant refuelling— a fairly expensive process where the hull is cut open and the nuclear cores replaced every decade. For the moment, however, the immediate challenge lies in successfully sending the submarine out to the sea.
http://www.1913intel.com/2008/02/03/india-the-secret-undersea-weapon/


I would have been suprised if they didn't work on SSBNs! BTW, France also fielded SSBNs 1st, before SSNs!

[mysterious]

Instead of simply posting articles; it would be nice to hear more than a one-liner of opinion on this piece that you've provided. IMHO, its another piece of patriotic rhetoric which many a country in the subcontinent is prone to resorting at one time or another. 'Scooter mechanic building a Merc' isn't exactly the best of examples when the Merc mechanic hands over the engine & other structural blue-prints for a stack of green-backs.

[Firehorse]

The article admits that this boomer will have less than perfect performance, but they have to start somewhere! As we learn more about this project, I'll be able to form a more detailed picture in my mind- only then will I be able to express my non-expertly opinion!

[funtz]

'Scooter mechanic building a Merc' isn't exactly the best of examples when the Merc mechanic hands over the engine & other structural blue-prints for a stack of green-backs.

Why, thank you for that in depth intelligence analysis, i wish i had access to those files too.It must feel good, to know beyond the obvious eh?


I would have been suprised if they didn't work on SSBNs! BTW, France also fielded SSBNs 1st, before SSNs!

The article admits that this boomer will have less than perfect performance, but they have to start somewhere! As we learn more about this project, i'll be able to form a more detailed picture in my mind- only than will i be able to express my non-expertly opinion!

Why, what happened to the unlimited access to the great Russian knowledge base of nuclear submarines that is being transferred to us for the ATV for the last 25 years?

About time they came up with one (or two), after crying about this magical guaranteed second strike capability for so long. Just wonder what difference will nuclear weapons under the water make over well protected long ranged ballistic missiles distributed throughout the country.

[Firehorse]

For the same reason the USN, RN, FN, RFN, and now PLAN has SSBNs-they don't need a lot of troops guarding them inport, and when on patrol the ocean is a better guard!

[kato]

For the same reason the USN, RN, FN, RFN, and now PLAN has SSBNs-they don't need a lot of troops guarding them inport, and when on patrol the ocean is a better guard!

Do you realize how big for example FOST is?

[Salty Dog]

Just wonder what difference will nuclear weapons under the water make over well protected long ranged ballistic missiles distributed throughout the country.

SSBNs are highly mobile and difficult to find and track in contrast to fixed ICBM sites which for sure are already targeted for first strike.

[funtz]

Is it "more difficult to find", or is it "will consume more enemy resources& hence money to find"?
(I personally do not know any thing about under water warfare).

Targeting and neutralizing all fixed land based sites which are well protected against anything except a direct strike (assuming a huge number) in a land mass as huge as India, will make sure that none of this good earth is left untouched (sort of like a nuclear winter/apocalypse), that might consume too many resources in itself (a land based absolute deterrent that is, considering the cost of maintaining such facilities and nuclear weapons in general).

[Salty Dog]

Is it "more difficult to find", or is it "will consume more enemy resources& hence money to find"?

An SSBN on patrol will strive to be silent. Tactical ASW is not an easy task. The open ocean environment is harsh even with sophisticated acoustic listening and processing equipment. Experienced submariners know where to hide their boats. So you may require more assets (MPA, surface towed array, or SSN) to find them.

[Firehorse]

The USSR (and now the RF) are the largest land masses contolled by a central government, and even they chose to have boomers. Missile subs are the most survivable strategic platforms, and will be such for a long time to come. Enough said on my part!

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news here, isro is developing a satellite based coastal surveillance system,iam sure these (even though being developed for peacefull applications) will be of considerable value to the indian navy.

here is the link and article:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/02/07/stories/2008020751830500.htm

Tenali (AP), Feb. 6 India is planning to establish a satellite-based coastal surveillance system to monitor and guard its long coastline extending beyond 7,500 km.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has prepared a blueprint for the system and has made some headway in developing the ingredients for it, according to Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller (R&D).
The major national project to be launched soon would require a dedicated satellite, which would be fabricated. It has to be placed in the geostationary orbit, where India’s Insat series are operating and beaming communication, television, meteorological and other imagery to meet the country’s demands, Dr Pillai told Business Line here.
The satellite would be something on the lines of the Oceansat of the Indian Space Research Organisation.
The total cost of the project is being worked out and it would be a reality in the next 4-5 years, said the top DRDO scientist and Chief Executive Officer of BrahMos Aerospace.
Dr Pillai, who was here to receive the 16th Dr Y. Nayudamma Award and deliver the lecture, said the surveillance system was important for the country because the vast coastline needs to be continuously monitored and key assets have to be protected.
The Kochi-based Naval Physical & Oceanographic Laboratory, under the DRDO, would be the nodal lab to implement the ambitious project.


A major feature of the system would be the installation of sea bed arrays in critical locations. They will throw up information that would be captured by the satellite. This information is relayed to a Central Control Centre. A string of smaller centre’s in different regions would also be linked for sharing the data, he said.
The ISRO has on its own put in place a satellite-based system to help fisherfolk in distress on the sea, be it due to rough sea conditions, sudden health problems etc. They are installing a receiver on fisherfolk boat, which continuously tracks their location and relays distress signals, by the pressing of the button onboard to a Central hub.

[Salty Dog]

The ISRO has on its own put in place a satellite-based system to help fisherfolk in distress on the sea, be it due to rough sea conditions, sudden health problems etc. They are installing a receiver on fisherfolk boat, which continuously tracks their location and relays distress signals, by the pressing of the button onboard to a Central hub.

Nice to see other non-military applications that benefits businesses and individuals. Great strategy for seeking funding too.

[aaaditya]

Nice to see other non-military applications that benefits businesses and individuals. Great strategy for seeking funding too.

besides it is an excellent tool for efficient monitoring of a large coastline and outlying island terrioteries ,and iam sure shall reduce the workload on the indian coast guard ,it will also be beneficial to friendly nations like srilanka,bangladesh,maldives etc ,for they can co-ordinate their fishing activities with india and maintain a close surveillance on anti social activities.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here ,it seems that the indian navy is determined to acquire upto 8 boeing p-8 mma aircrafts from usa,they have completed an evaluation of the boeing and airbus aircrafts and have found the p8 to be superior.

here is the link and the article:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/After_Hercules_India_eyes_2_billion_Boeing_deal/articleshow/2738886.cms

NEW DELHI: After joint combat exercises to develop "interoperability", the Indo-US military tango is now firmly waltzing into the arms purchase arena as well. With the over $1-billion deal for six C-130J 'Super Hercules' aircraft in the bag, an even bigger defence contract is now headed the US way.

Sources on Monday said the defence ministry and Boeing have begun the "commercial price negotiations" for the purchase of eight P-8i long-range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) patrol aircraft, with anti-submarine warfare capabilities, for the Indian Navy. Unlike the Super Hercules deal, which as reported by TOI earlier is a direct 'foreign military sale' contract under a government-to-government arrangement, the P-8i has emerged the victor in the global LRMR sweepstakes held by India to plug operational gaps in its maritime snooping abilities.

The P-8i, based on the Boeing-737 commercial airliner, has out-performed the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company's A-319 maritime patrol aircraft and other contenders in meeting 'qualitative requirements' in the technical trials held by the Navy. "The contract will be signed soon. The first P-8i will be delivered within 48 months, that is in mid-2012 and all the eight by mid-2015. They will replace the Navy's eight aging Tupolev-142Ms," said a source.

India, incidentally, had earlier rejected the US offer to lease two P-3C Orion reconnaissance aircraft under a $133-million contract. India, of course, remains unhappy over the American decision to sell eight more P-3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan, which already has two such planes in its inventory. Once it's inked, the P-8i deal worth around $2 billion will be the biggest-ever defence contract with the US, a minor player in the lucrative Indian arms market so far.

While Russia notches up sales worth about $1.5 billion to India every year, Israel chalks up an annual tally of around $1 billion. America's only big-ticket deal with India in recent years has been the $190 million contract in 2002 to supply 12 AN/TPQ-37 firefinder weapon-locating radars.

Then, of course, India last year acquired amphibious transport vessel USS Trenton for $48.23 million, with the six UH-3H helicopters to operate from it costing another $39 million. With India spending a whopping $25 billion on arms imports since the 1999 Kargil conflict, and planning another $30 billion worth in 2007-2012, the US is obviously desperate to grab a big piece of action. It has been particularly aggressive in marketing its F/A-18 "Super Hornets" (Boeing) and F-16 "Falcons" (Lockheed Martin) for the gigantic $10.4-billion project to supply 126 multi-role combat fighters to IAF.

Apart from the defence deals, with US secretary of defence Robert Gates slated to arrive in India on February 25-26, the two countries are getting ready to sign agreements like the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), Container Security Initiative (CSI) and the end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment. The Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) — under which Indian and American militaries propose to provide each other with logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft — has, however, been put on the backburner due to opposition of the Left.

CPM leader Prakash Karat has termed LSA "far more dangerous than the nuclear deal" in its implications. But despite Left opposition to military ties with the US, the two nations have already scheduled at least five joint combat exercises in 2008. "Procurements is just one facet in the overall robust defence engagement with the US. The American forces, for instance, now want to further scale up the level and complexity of exercises with Indian forces. Brigade-level exercises will be in place in four-five years," said a source.

and here is another link and article:


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News_by_Industry/India_at_advanced_stage_in_deal_for_navy_planes_Re port_/articleshow/2782881.cms

NEW DELHI: The Indian navy's plans to buy eight long-range maritime reconnaissance planes from Boeing or EADS for two billion dollars are at an "advanced stage," a report said on Thursday.

"The Indian navy plans to replace eight old (Soviet-era) TU-142 planes with an equal number of state-of-art aircraft," Indian navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta told the media.

"The case has been progressed strictly in accordance with the current defence procurement policy and presently it is at an advanced stage," he told the media.

"The intention is to have the first aircraft delivered in mid-2012 and all the eight aircraft by mid-2015."

Indian defence ministry officials separately told the media on Thursday that Boeing's P-8i "outperformed" its closest rival -- A-319 patrol aircraft from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, or EADS.

Highly placed government sources said clearance to buy planes from Boeing was likely "during or around" an official trip to India by US Defence Secretary Robert Gates later in February.

If the contract is awarded to Boeing, the deal would be India's biggest military aircraft deal with the US in five decades.

"We are in discussions and we can assure P-8i is a strong programme and it will help the Indian navy in a global supply chain," said Ian Thomas, president of Boeing India.

The company added it was also discussing with New Delhi the possible procurement of as many as 24 heavy-lift and attack helicopters for the military.

"We have a sense of momentum in the talks. We have two strong offers," Thomas said of the Apache combat gunship and the CH-47 Chinook heavy-lift helicopter Boeing has offered to India.

The Seattle-based company is also in the race to pick up a contract to supply 126 fighter jets worth 10.24 billion dollars to the Indian airforce.

Analysts say India, the largest buyer of arms among emerging nations, is likely to spend 50 billion dollars between now and 2018 to modernise its 1.23-million-strong military, the world's fourth largest.

var RN = new String (Math.random()); var RNS = RN.substring (2,11); b2 = ' '; if (doweshowbellyad==1) bellyad.innerHTML = b2;

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here,it seems that the indian navy is planning to take a more proactive role in the monitoring of the indian ocean,the first step is to improve the relationship with friendly nations and hence the indian navy has launched the indian ocean naval symposium.

i also believe that the acquisition of the p-8 mma will go a long way towards meeting this goal,though just 8 aircrafts seem to be inadequate .

here is the link and the article:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080041216&ch=2/14/2008%2012:43:53%20PM

Thursday, February 14, 2008 (New Delhi)

Indian Navy, the strongest in the region is now taking steps to strengthen the policing of the nearly 74 million square kilometres of the Indian Ocean, an effort to deal with the new emerging security threats.

Last year 25 warships from five countries participated in ''war games'' in the Bay of Bengal.

Now to police 73.6 million square kilometres of the Indian Ocean Region, the Navy will launch the first ever consultative mechanism on maritime issues, the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS).
It will have 31 countries including France, Djibouti, Egypt, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia.
Its goals include developing common doctrines and operational processes for speedy disaster relief .
Strengthening the capability of members to counter maritime security challenges.The United States too has a similar platform, the Western Naval Pacific Symposium, comprising 21 members to achieve similar goals.

However, the Indian Navy says it is not a military alliance.

''IONS is a non-hegemonic consultative mechanism designed to promote cooperation among navies in the Indian Ocean region,'' said Rear Admiral Pradeep Chauhan.

But what does the new step signify.

''It is just a sign of growing India. India has one of the strongest navy in the region and it is good that they have taken the lead,'' said Kanwal Sibal, former Foreign Secretary.

While several questions remain about the new security structure, one thing is clear - the Indian Navy has taken the lead to deal with new emerging security threats in the Indian Ocean Region.

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting link,it gives a highlight of defence technology offered or on offer to indian navy from italy.

the list is impressive.

here is the link and the article:


http://www.avionews.com/index.php?corpo=see_news_home.php&news_id=1085785&pagina_chiamante=corpo%3Dindex.php

New Delhi, India - From February 16th to 19th
(WAPA) - From 16th to 19th February, Finmeccanica will present at "Defexpo 2008", New Delhi, its capabilities in the aeronautics, helicopters, security and defence systems sectors.

India is experiencing a time of strong economic growth and is likely to see important government programmes in Defence and Aeronautics sectors in the next 10-15 years.

As a matter of fact, owing to the extraordinary rise in the number of flights, the country needs to equip itself with appropriate air traffic control and management systems and new aircraft to cope with market demand.

Finmeccanica is responding to the former with the technological capabilities of systems manufactured by SELEX Sistemi Integrati, which over the years has supplied radar equipment to the largest airports in the country, and has recently won the contract to supply 13 systems (comprising primary radar ATC-R33S, secondary radar SIR-S and 52 CDS-2000 consoles) for the Indian Air Force's air traffic control.

At the same time, the larger Indian airlines - Jet Airways, Air Deccan, Air Alliance and Kingfisher - have already bought dozens of turboprop regional aircraft manufactured by ATR, a joint venture between Alenia Aeronautica and EADS. In Bangalore ATR opened a Customer Support Centre and - in partnership with Air Deccan - a training centre which will operate for both Indian and other airlines.

The increasing presence of ATR in India, as well as the opportunity to access training centres and a wide technical support network, could also help persuade the country to choose the twin-engine ATR-42MP for maritime patrol missions.

The ATR-42MP is equipped with Galileo Avionica's atos mission system, and Seaspray search radar developed by SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems, the most advanced system available for this category of aircraft, also chosen by the US Coast Guard to update its HC-130 patrol planes. On 1 January 2008, SELEX Sensors & Airborne Systems and Galileo Avionica began to operate on the market with the name SELEX GALILEO.

In the helicopters business, AgustaWestland has strong interests in the country in terms of potential developments in the civil market and also for the tender under way to supply VVIP helicopters to the Armed Forces.

The AW-101 is the ideal helicopter for this programme, in light of its recent successes on the international market, and the additional interest that it could generate in the Navy and Air Force. In addition, AgustaWestland is continuing its strategy of strengthening existing relationships with distributors and local maintenance and technical support centres, and of identifying potential partners for joint development projects in India.

Moreover, in response to the Indian Navy's requirements for a naval helicopter, AgustaWestland is promoting the NH-90 helicopter in the NFH version for naval applications for which the company has full responsibility for the mission system integration.

In the air defence sector, SELEX Sistemi Integrati is competing for the contract to supply 30 3D Low-Level Transportable Radar systems (LLTR) for the Indian Air Force.

India - which boasts a long tradition in the naval sector - also has ambitious projects for the Navy that could involve Finmeccanica companies as suppliers and integrators not only of Combat Management Systems and Command and Control systems, but also of individual equipment, weapons systems and sensors, such as SELEX Sistemi Integrati's RAN-40L naval radar, already installed on board the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour.

To this end, Finmeccanica companies also co-operate with local companies in both the development and production phases: WASS, which is promoting its Black Shark systems for Scorpene submarines, is working with Bharat Dynamics Ltd in the underwater systems sector. Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd has obtained from Oto Melara a licence to produce 76mm naval cannons.

The licence could also be extended to cover production of 127mm cannons, which are currently the subject of a tender process for installation on the Indian Navy's new class of destroyer.

In a country with an area of over 3 million sq km, 7000 km of coastline and a population of more than 1 billion inhabitants, state-of-the-art instruments and systems capable of confronting and responding to any type of threat efficiently and rapidly are essential to guarantee safety and security and protect the country's borders, the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and its critical infrastructure.

Finmeccanica's large systems and solutions match these needs.

[Salty Dog]

Apart from the defence deals, with US secretary of defence Robert Gates slated to arrive in India on February 25-26, the two countries are getting ready to sign agreements like the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), Container Security Initiative (CSI) and the end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment. The Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) — under which Indian and American militaries propose to provide each other with logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft — has, however, been put on the backburner due to opposition of the Left.


This paves the way for some interesting future interoperability, not to mention . . . . hardware.

[Firehorse]

Govt ready to pay more for Gorshkov
2 Feb 2008, 0238 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: India is willing to meet Russia midway in its demand for an additional $1.2 billion for the modernization, refit of the decommissioned carrier aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov.
Though there is reluctance to talk exact figures at this stage, with defence secretary Vijay Singh slated to lead a high-level team to Russia on February 19, defence ministry sources say India would be ready to shell out another $500-600 million to Russia for the 44,570-tonne carrier.
"Some of our teams are already in Russia. We do realise the extensive modernization work on the 44,570-tonne Gorshkov was underestimated at the time of signing the contract. But the $1.2-billion figure is way too high. We are negotiating with the Russians to cut it down by around half," said a source.
This, of course, is yet another instance of Russia's increasing propensity to jack-up costs midway through execution of defence projects, like it happened in the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter contracts, apart from huge delays, which has already caused a 'big chill' in bilateral defence ties.
The haggling over the cost jump in what was "a fixed-price contract" apart, India knows Gorshkov is crucial for its plan to have a potent blue-water presence in the entire Indian Ocean Region. The Navy, after all, hopes to have two operational 'carrier battle-groups' by the middle of the next decade.
The Indian delegation, which will include Navy vice chief Vice-Admiral Nirmal Verma, secretary (defence production) Pradeep Kumar and director-general (acquisitions) Shashikant Sharma, will hold crucial talks with the Russians to
arrive at "a mutual figure" after examining the partly-burnt carrier berthed at the Sevmash shipyard in north Russia for the last 12 years.
As per the initial package deal signed with Russia in January 2004, India was to pay $1.5 billion for Gorshkov' s refurbishment, along with 16 MiG-29K 'Fulcrum' supersonic fighters and a mix of Ka-31 and Ka-28 helicopters to operate from its carrier's deck. The delivery date was then fixed at August 2008.
But last year, Russia shocked India by demanding another $1.2 billion for the refit of Gorshkov — already rechristened INS Vikramaditya after India paid an initial $500 million — apart from pushing back its delivery date to 2012-2013.
In the absence of blueprints since the carrier was built in Ukraine in the 1980s before the Soviet Union breakup, Russian engineers made some 'errors' in estimating the work required on the warship.
It was, for instance, thought the carrier would require new cabling running into around 700-km in length. But once it was opened up, this figure was revised to 2,400 km.
Then, of course, the work entails removal of the huge missile launchers on the bow to build a ski-jump at a 14.3 degree angle for the MiG-29Ks. It's also to be fitted with new-generation air defence and other weapon systems, new engines, eight diesel boilers with generators, electrical machinery, communication systems, distillation plants and the like. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2749942,prtpage-1.cms


http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14598535

India cannot afford to pull out of the deal at this juncture as it has already paid nearly 50 per cent (500 million dollars) of the contracted amount.
The then Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, who had specially flown from Moscow to sign the 1.5-billion US dollar agreement with his Indian counterpart George Fernandes, had stated that the Gorshkov deal incorporated life-time upgrades for the warship from the Russian side.A lot of work was required to be done on Admiral Gorshkov to convert it into a state-of-the-art carrier.
Initially, the aircraft carrier's flight deck was to be extended and a powder type catapult installed for short take-offs and landings (STOL). The Russian side had indicated that all these alterations and improvements would take another four years or so. http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Feb32008/national2008020350239.asp?section=updatenews


This underlined info. is new to me! What is "powder type catapult"?

[funtz]

That will be a catapult operated by gun powder i think, the USA might havew a patent on that, do a search and tell me too.

This could be a step to ensure or rather an effort to rig up the E-2 Hawkeye back when the navy was contemplating about it.

may be they will consider some similar catapults for a fixed wing AEW platform on the indigenous project, or may be they wont.

I think many people here can comment better than me on that.

[funtz]

Aint google the Rock Star of our generation


"Aircraft were launched from the ship by a catapult operated by gunpowder," explains Oliver. Battleships
and cruisers were, at the time, typically outfitted with two stern-mounted catapults for such purposes.

The Navy even equipped some destroyers with them, although the smaller ships had to give up a gun turret and the torpedo tubes , to make room for the catapult. "An eight-inch shell filled with black powder was fired into a chamber, and by the movement of a piston [and] a series of pulleys and cables, a cradle holding the plane was literally fired down the catapult track,"says Oliver. "This amounted to being fired from a cannon, since the plane accelerated from zero to 60 knots within a few feet. ìIt was a sturdy aircraft and could take a lot of punishment,"he adds.
"We may have called them ëlow and slow,í but they were rugged.

"Prior to launch," Oliver continues, "the ship would turn to a heading that would place the relative wind about 30 degrees off the bow. The catapult would then be trained outboard to put the wind directly down the track." When crews wanted to launch two Kingfishers in rapid succession, they expedited the process by loading both catapults, starboard and port sides. "The ship would turn so that the starboard catapult was facing into the wind, and launch that Kingfisher first. Then they rotated the port-facing catapult 90 degrees so that it now also faced the starboard side, and launch that Kingfisher as well. This process avoided the labor-intensive maneuver of changing the shipís direction, and enabled us to launch quickly."

http://www.serviceclub.org/air_space_catapult_crews_layout-fm05.pdf

Why there is even a littile picture of this process.

2440

Interesting read though it goes slightly off topic in terms of generations of aircrafts/ships and the type of aircrafts, interesting read none the less.

[Salty Dog]

That will be a catapult operated by gun powder i think, the USA might havew a patent on that, do a search and tell me too.

This could be a step to ensure or rather an effort to rig up the E-2 Hawkeye back when the navy was contemplating about it.

may be they will consider some similar catapults for a fixed wing AEW platform on the indigenous project, or may be they wont.

I think many people here can comment better than me on that.

That is really reaching far back for catapault technology. I just hope they use smokeless gunpowder.

The plan is to use this with a ski-jump???

[funtz]

Its not a plan per say, its a small line in a report, which i think might have been on the table for the small duration of time in which E-2 was offered to the Indian Navy as a AEW solution for the carrier, the carrier it self will use STOBAR when it comes out.

If this was a plan then may be it was a single catapult custom made for the E-2. Admiral Gorshkov is a fairly old design, installing a single catapult which utilized steam or electricity might have been too complex, leaving this option open, again as all things with its own disadvantages.

As i said all guesses on my part.

Again this is just one news report made by a reporter. There is every chance of none of this being true, unless a direct comment can be found involving someone who was in a official position.

The indigenous design will involve a lot of help from around the world i guess (consulting and what not), they should have kept the single catapult option open. Well they know better than me, i guess.

It is funny however, how by the time the project launches a ship, the military or political leadership who authorized the project might be long retired.

[kams]

With the ongoing Defexpo08 in New Delhi, we are getting lots of new info.

From Finmeccanica press release,
link (http://www.avionews.com/index.php?corpo=see_news_home.php&news_id=1085785&pagina_chiamante=corpo%3Dindex.php)





In a recent interview, IN Chief Admiral Suresh Mehta revealed that IN's meritime surveilence will have 3 layers,

1. Short Range - UAV (Searcher II, Heron) and Dornier 228
2. Medium Range - IL-38 SD (and future replacement - ATR-42MP or equivalent)
3. Long range - LRMP - Present TU-124, future - P-8I favourite to win or Airbus/CASA

Moreover, in response to the Indian Navy's requirements for a naval helicopter, AgustaWestland is promoting the NH-90 helicopter in the NFH version for naval applications for which the company has full responsibility for the mission system integration.

Admiral Suresh Mehta indicated that Sea Kings will be upgraded and replacements will start rolling in 5-6 years.

India - which boasts a long tradition in the naval sector - also has ambitious projects for the Navy that could involve Finmeccanica companies as suppliers and integrators not only of Combat Management Systems and Command and Control systems, but also of individual equipment, weapons systems and sensors, such as SELEX Sistemi Integrati's RAN-40L naval radar, already installed on board the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour.

The increasing presence of ATR in India, as well as the opportunity to access training centres and a wide technical support network, could also help persuade the country to choose the twin-engine ATR-42MP for maritime patrol missions.

The ATR-42MP is equipped with Galileo Avionica's ATOS mission system, and Seaspray search radar developed by SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems, the most advanced system available for this category of aircraft, also chosen by the US Coast Guard to update its HC-130 patrol planes. On 1 January 2008, SELEX Sensors & Airborne Systems and Galileo Avionica began to operate on the market with the name SELEX GALILEO.

IN's net-centric plan had heavy inputs from US. apparently this has run in to state department beurocracy. Would be nice to have European alternative. Afterall when you are cash rich and not dependent on charity, customer is the King.;) . In Radars, however I doubt In will opt for any European item, as IN will start inducting LRDE's 3D CAR (Revati- Naval version), and Kolkatta class will have MF-STAR.

To this end, Finmeccanica companies also co-operate with local companies in both the development and production phases: WASS, which is promoting its Black Shark systems for Scorpene submarines, is working with Bharat Dynamics Ltd in the underwater systems sector. Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd has obtained from Oto Melara a licence to produce 76mm naval cannons.

The licence could also be extended to cover production of 127mm cannons, which are currently the subject of a tender process for installation on the Indian Navy's new class of destroyer.

WASS is currently collaborating for developing torpedo decoy system too. 127mm guns on Kolkatta class would be nice for shore bombardment.

Considering that problems Russians having in delivering agrred upon contracts, Europeans may also win the Navy's tender for second line of submarine.

Add to that 7 news class of destroyers for which IN floated RFI last year.

Overall Europe may gain substantial IN order, US for LRMP.

[funtz]

And i thought i knew what funny was.

Scorpene submarine likely to roll out by 2012

New Delhi (PTI): The Scorpene submarine could be fitted with the underwater version of the Brahmos cruise missiles, which could enhance Indian Navy's strategic firepower capability, French Company DCNS on Sunday announced.

"If India wants, Brahmos cruise missiles can be fitted on the Scorpene being built under technology transfer at Mazagon docks," DCNS project director Xavier Marchal told newspersons at the ongoing CII sponsored Defence-Expo.

DCNS is manufacturing the submarine.

If New Delhi gives the go ahead, it would increase the potential of the Navy, giving it a second option of firing missiles from submarines. Navy's recently upgraded Russian Kilo class submarines are armed with shore strike missiles.

DCNS executive vice president and chief operating officer Bernard Planchais also announced that teething problems in effecting technology transfer have been taken care of and the first of the Indian Navy's six Scorpene submarine will roll out in 2012.

"The first submarine is scheduled to be delivered in 2012 with the other five to follow at a rate of one per year," Planchais said

His words would come as a reassurance as transfer of technology to the Mumbai-based Mazagaon Dock has already put behind the roll out of the Scorpene by one year.

"I have reviewed the progress of the work at the Mazagon Dock in Mumbai, where the submarines are being constructed, recently and everything is going well. I am confident that we will be able to deliver all the submarines as per schedule," Planchais said. He added that the DCNS would be contending for Navy's subsequent orders for six more submarines.

Planchais remarks assumes significance in the backdrop of announcement by Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta that India would float global tenders for the second line of submarines this year.

India proposes to have 24 submarines with the mix of conventional and nuclear ones under the 20:20 submarine vision of the Navy. India is to acquire a nuclear submarine on lease from Russia next year, when its own advance technology vehicle would be ready for sea trials.

The DCNS has also launched a wholly-owned Indian subsidiary, with Mumbai as its headquarters, to acquire parts locally for its ongoing as well as future projects.

"Indian market is providing very good opportunities. There are certain physical difficulties and we are sorting out that and organising ourselves in the country," Marchal said. He said the company was also looking for joint venture with Indian companies to offer specialized services, design and operations in different defence projects.

Asked whether Scorpenes were better than Agosta, the submarines which are being constructed by the DCNS for Pakistan Navy, DCNS project director Xavier Marchal said "Of course Agostas are inferior than Scorpenes".

On follow on priorities, Planchais said "Our current priority is to succeed the Scorpene project".

Marchal said Idian naval shipbuilder Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineering Ltd (GRSE) has awarded DCNS a contract to supply propulsion equipment and auxiliaries, including thrust blocks, for four type P28 anti-submarine warfare corvettes for the Indian Navy.

The contract is led by a partnership comprising DCNS and Indian companies Walchandagar Industries Ltd. DCNS also assists GRSE with propulsion system integration.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200802171740.htm

The French can be so..... well the type of chaps who play different tunes to different crowds ;)

I bet the Russians would make a hue and cry about the BrahMos on Scorpion, however if the BrahMos submarine faces delays in tests due to non availability of a test bed and russia does not bend some files to get this done.

What on earth will give them any hope at all in the upcoming second line of subs?
there is another way of asking this question

Can the Russians use the BrahMos as a advantage?

We sure seem to be becoming a global hunting ground for defense firms, or shall i say a melting pot?

[kams]

Second submarine line for Indian navy (http://www.ibnlive.com/news/navy-eyes-new-submarines-for-bluewater-capability/59174-3.html)

New Delhi: The Indian Navy has set the ball rolling for acquisition of new warships and submarines.


India has made it clear that it wants more muscle at sea and has kick-started the process of acquiring six new hunter-killer submarines and seven new frigates.

Request for information have recently been issued to the French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin and German HDW.


"It is a new submarine. It is not the Scorpene and it is a bigger submarine with specific features," Alain Fougeron, Executive VP, DCNS says about its new submarines

That is very very interesting, a bigger submarine, which is specific to India.

The key differentiator from its existing fleet of 16 submarines will be a new class of missiles, which will establish India as the leading naval power in the region.


"The missile component of the Submarine weapon is very important and it should be very powerful," Andrey V Efimov, Manager, Rubin Design Bureau, says.

By considering four options India has sent a message that it wants to diversify its weapons procurement beyond traditional arms supplier Russia.

New Class of missile - Either Btahmos or something entirely new - K-15. DCNS head also disclosed today that they are ready to fit Brahmos to Scorpenes currently under manufacture.

Another intresting news is about new class of Frigates, P-17A for which RFI was sent last year. Although Vishal Thapar tries to apin that Americans (Lockmart) have a cake walk in this deal, European and Russians may give tough competition. IN has longstanding relationship with Finncantieri and DCNS.

[Aliph Ahmed]

If Brahmos is really such a great " War Winning missile " (Forceindia.net) and it is a joint venture between India and Russia where India contributed with only Intertial Navigation and Fire Control System and the rest of everything was built by Russia then why didnt Russia Induct it in its services ?

[funtz]

Is not exactly "only" the INS and FCS.

Russians have whole this whole collection of cruise missiles of different type for land based use and sea based use, its nearly enough to blow a small nation.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Is not exactly "only" the INS and FCS.

Russians have whole this whole collection of cruise missiles of different type for land based use and sea based use, its nearly enough to blow a small nation.

What else did the Indians contribute in the Brahmos program ?

Still, dont make sense to produce one missile in a joint venture and still not induct it.

[funtz]

It does when that sets precedence to a 5 billion dollar funding for something like the PAK-FA.

And when that leads to a joint venture for a medium lift transport aircraft.

It is a layered relationship, with its own advantages

[Aliph Ahmed]

It does when that sets precedence to a 5 billion dollar funding for something like the PAK-FA.

And when that leads to a joint venture for a medium lift transport aircraft.

It is a layered relationship, with its own advantages

I see. Would bribe be a proper word ?

You didnt tell me. What else did the Indians contribute with in Brahmos aside from INS and FCS ?

[kams]

It does when that sets precedence to a 5 billion dollar funding for something like the PAK-FA.

And when that leads to a joint venture for a medium lift transport aircraft.

It is a layered relationship, with its own advantages

funtz,

Brahmos partnership has evolved in to new products such as Brahmos 2. Dr.Pillay also mentioned during the Defexpo 08 that sublaunched Brahmos will be tested this year and air-launched version in 2009 using TU-124. Su-30MKI integration may take more time.

Also afaik it won't be integrated wilth IL-38SD.

[kams]

I see. Would bribe be a proper word ?

You didnt tell me. What else did the Indians contribute with in Brahmos aside from INS and FCS ?


You are trolling again,

[Aliph Ahmed]

You are trolling again,

No. I am not.

I asked Funtz if he can inform me of any other form the Indians contributed in the Brahmos program other then INS and FCS because he said it is not exactly the only two things.

It was a very innocent question.

[kams]

No. I am not.

I asked Funtz if he can inform me of any other form the Indians contributed in the Brahmos program because he said it is not exactly the only two things.

It was a very innocent question.

Yes it is very innocent -

I see. Would bribe be a proper word ?

May be you have a comprehension problem, we don't.

Any way have a nice day.

[funtz]

I was reponding with the russians in mind.

We got a excellent deal.
In due time it will attain sub launch/Marine Patrol Aircraft launch, which is a very effective land attach and anti ship cruise missile.

And the Project set precedence for joint ventures with other foriegn firms, a very important thing in the coming decades, no ones going to have the money to go at it alone (except the americans they are made out of money).


Its not that its about the way you put it "only"- INS/FCS is a lot more than that, especially for a missile that had the project aim of being a land attack/anti ship missile, and matched the accuracy of any similar system out there. its almost half the job.

[kams]

The joint Russian-Indian venture BrahMos Aerospace Limited actively prepares for testing new versions of supersonic cruise missiles. Venture executive director Sivathanu Pilley said in an interview with Itar-Tass that it is provided by the year-end for making submarine-based launches of BrahMos cruises, while an air-based version of the missile will be tested in 2009.

According to Pilley who personally presented the brainchild of Russian and Indian defence researchers at the international exhibition DefExpo 2008, opened in New Delhi on Saturday, the question is now being tackled on creating a technological platform, necessary for submarine test launches of the BrahMos missiles.

It is probable that a Russian submarine will be used for this purpose. But a possibility is also scrutinized to install a cruise in a submarine of a new series from among those being acquired by the Indian navy.

"It has been already settled that the air-based version of BrahMos will be installed initially on a Tu-142 plane for testing," Pilley noted. "We plan to test possibilities of its use on Su-30MKI fighters in 2012."

The present and future of the joint venture, set up for R & D as well as marketing supersonic cruises in compliance with the intergovernmental agreement between Russia and India, signed in February 1998, are graphically depicted on the display BrahMos Aerospace Limited.

link (http://www.mbtmag.com/articleXml/LN745995581.html)

Posting the report about what I said earlier.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Mod edit:

being half smart will get you nowhere. Play by the rules, heed the multiple warnings you've already been given or your privilege (it's not a right...) to post on these forums will be removed.

There will be no further warnings. Step out of line again and you will join the banned list.

AD

[funtz]

With Israel going for LCS

During the nine-month combat system configuration phase, Lockheed Martin will examine the combat system performance of LCS-I using two different radar options:

- the advanced radar under development by Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI)
(The MF-STAR)??

and Lockheed Martin’s SPY-1F radar. The team will examine the performance of these two radar options using the

- COMBATSS-21 combat management system integrated with the Israeli Navy Command and Control (IC2) system

and develop the technical architecture,

- high level specifications and estimated costs to integrate COMBATSS-21 with IC2 and multiple Israeli and U.S. sensor and weapon systems including the MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS),

- Typhoon gun and Barak missile.

Lockheed Martin is currently partnered with Rafael Armament Systems, Elbit Systems and Ness on LCS-I.

- The weapon systems aboard LCS-I include the STANDARD Missile 2, Harpoon and MK 32 torpedo tubes and selected Israeli Navy systems.

http://www.lmlcsteam.com/news.html
And Lock prepared to produce the Mk-41 VLS with L&T

Will it be cheaper to go with this, in a more customised config?

And with the sort of money spent on Submarines. It should make sense to make them as customised as possible before starting the construction (scorpions with Brahmos gives them some land attack capability only need is for a longer ranged missile). The second line of subs should include some longer ranged cruise missiles. That is the only thing that this could be.

[Grand Danois]

Aliph Ahmed,

You seem to have no other purpose than to aggrevate, and did not take heed of the notice to be more constructive in yuor posting.

2nd warning.


/GD

[Salty Dog]

I was reponding with the russians in mind.

We got a excellent deal.
In due time it will attain sub launch/Marine Patrol Aircraft launch, which is a very effective land attach and anti ship cruise missile.

And the Project set precedence for joint ventures with other foriegn firms, a very important thing in the coming decades, no ones going to have the money to go at it alone (except the americans they are made out of money).


Its not that its about the way you put it "only"- INS/FCS is a lot more than that, especially for a missile that had the project aim of being a land attack/anti ship missile, and matched the accuracy of any similar system out there. its almost half the job.

Joint venture projects will be the standard, especially for large defense projects.

The TATA Group has recently made joint venture agreements with Boeing to locally manufacture aircraft components for P-8, CH-47, AH-64, and F/A-18E/F aircraft should these deals come through. Tata currently provides structural components for the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

Tata also recently signed joint venture agreements with the Israeli IAI to produce drones, radars, and electronic warfare systems.

Bottom line is that without joint venture, future defense projects will have less chance of success.

[kams]

Bottom line is that without joint venture, future defense projects will have less chance of success.

It's about risk sharing, when one doesn't have infinite resources and indefinite time. However when pvt. companies only resort to joint ventures, original research and innovation gets killed. At the same time Indian Pvt' companies can't afford to get in to these mega projects alone.

In case of India one can only hope that these joint ventures will give these pvt. companies the exposure and financial muscle to stand on their own eventually.

[funtz]

It is more about setting up a competitive industry that offers enough opportunities to hire and retain talent.

Which will only work when the government specifies certain equipment can only be acquired from these firms (small arms, artillery guns, transportation vehicles etc. etc.), the sheer amount of the equipment required in-house will take care of the rest.

For example the INSAS firearm has tremendous capacity in several state police departments, as soon as it the modernization requests are processed and funds alloted (which is phew.... a long never ending exercise in pushing files one babbu at a time), it sure is funny however that this is the only product available which never had any competition, similarly the need for specialized transport vehicles of various types.

However every body generally ranks the India Navy high on the gradual shift and encouragement of the domestic industry.
Why is that so?

[kams]

However every body generally ranks the India Navy high on the gradual shift and encouragement of the domestic industry.
Why is that so?

IN is only branch of Indian armed forces which has it's own design branch and hass been pushing for indigenization from long. It imports due to capacity constraints within Indian shipyards. Look how they have taken up the N-LCA.

[Aliph Ahmed]

I was reponding with the russians in mind.

We got a excellent deal.
In due time it will attain sub launch/Marine Patrol Aircraft launch, which is a very effective land attach and anti ship cruise missile.

And the Project set precedence for joint ventures with other foriegn firms, a very important thing in the coming decades, no ones going to have the money to go at it alone (except the americans they are made out of money).



I got my answer for why Russia refused to Induct the Brahmos : The Russian constitution does not allow any military equipment to be inducted unless it is completely made in Russia.

Contribution of the Indians with respect to Brahmos is only INS and FCS. Everything else is Russian.

Nonetheless, a good knowledgebale experience for the Indians.

[funtz]

- Its a matter of convenience.

- If the constitutional amendment barring usage of all joint venture is true, the implications on the upcoming medium transport agreement (Russia has a need of 100-160), and the PAK-FA will be immense, i/e Russians wont be able to buy them, either, and they need them as bad as we do. These things can be changed or used depending on the situation.

- As I said before, the last thing Russia needs is another cruise missile, they already had the P-800, and this project ensured that they improved on some older tech while keeping the older missile frame/engine. Which was A very safe approach to start the up coming decades of Joint ventures, and India is a relatively risk free opinion (of the very few available).

- BrahMos company itself will keep on coming out with future products with shared profits; the requirement for the BrahMos in the Indian Army and Navy must have been very profitable.

BrahMos itself is no magic missile; Marketing is a very important aspect which has to be exploited to the maximum value. It is just a missile that’s all, goes from point A to point B and hits the object it’s supposed to hit, it has been doing that till now in all the tests giving the Indian military supreme confidence in its ability which is the most important thing.
However the only real test are combat conditions, and well I hope that never happens.

[funtz]

IN is only branch of Indian armed forces which has it's own design branch and hass been pushing for indigenization from long. It imports due to capacity constraints within Indian shipyards. Look how they have taken up the N-LCA.

IN is only branch of Indian armed forces which has it's own design branch and hass been pushing for indigenization from long. It imports due to capacity constraints within Indian shipyards. Look how they have taken up the N-LCA.

Ya! followed up on some information on that.


However while doing that this came across as very strange.

-Foxtrot class: trial/training:

- Shishumar class (HDW 209/1500): (86, 92,94), at their mid life stage?

- Sindugosh (KILO) class:
877EKM (86-91)
Type 636 (97-2000)
INS Sindhushastra INS Sindhurakshak- Were They Klub-S capable at delivery and how did the tests went back then? Any indications, reports etc.
And INS Sindhuvijay was the second last submarine undergoing refit, to be followed by INS Sindhukirti, so what happened to the rest of them, in regards with the now controversial Klub missile system.

-Scorpene SSK: 2012-17

- The upcoming second line of subs, customized for the Indian Navy.

- ATV, the home grown (at a leisurely pace) nuclear Submarines.
- SSN?
- SSBN
Or will the SSN be the Akulas for the time being?

- Akula-II

These seem to be a tremendous amount of submarine types, for what period of time will the different types serve together in the Navy (guess-timation), considering that these sub surface killers have to be very technologically advanced to stay relevant, how much of a problem will that be logistically?

Why are the Akula’s not in India? Lack of funds/Price negotiation the Usual Indo-Russian games or does it take this much of time to do these things?

1/26/2002: INDIA TO LEASE TWO RUSSIAN NUCLEAR SUBMARINES
Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov has announced that Russia plans to lease two nuclear submarines to India. The statement was made during his visit to the Amurskiy Shipyard in late January 2002. The shipyard is constructing the first submarine India would lease -- the Nerpa, a Shchuka B-class [NATO name 'Akula II'] nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN). The second submarine, the Kuguar, is being constructed in the Sevmash facility in Severodvinsk. India will provide Russia with financing to complete construction of the two SSNs, while Russia will train four Indian submarine crews and provide India with the submarines for five years, beginning in 2004.http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/naval/nucflt/pacflt/amur.htm

[kams]

HDW are due for MLU this year. Lockmart is one of the companies bidding for the upgrade contract. Looks like it as an open tender, not limited to OEM.

[nevidimka]

Aircraft Carrier May Go to Russian Navy
The aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov will be delivered to the Russian Navy instead of going to India after modernization. A source within the Russian military-industrial complex told RBK that Russia and India are now reaching an agreement on changing the conditions of the 2004 contract for the ship's overhaul. Under that contract, India received the hull without charge on condition that it be modernized at Sevmashpredpriyatie. The value of that contract was $1.5 billion.
According to unofficial information, negotiations are currently underway to expand the value of the contract by about $1 billion. “That question is being worked out. If a compromise is not found with India, the aircraft carrier will probably be purchased by the Russian Navy,” the source said.

The Admiral Gorshkov was built in 1978 as the Baku. Its name was changed in 1991. It will be equipped with Russian-Indian Bramos missiles and Russian or Israeli air defense systems after modernization.

http://www.kommersant.com/p-12082/r_527/

[kams]

[I]Aircraft Carrier May Go to Russian Navy


http://www.kommersant.com/p-12082/r_527/

Not going to happen. India will pay the extra dinero and take it. IN simply can't afford to let Vikramadiya slip through their hands.

[Galrahn]

Not going to happen. India will pay the extra dinero and take it. IN simply can't afford to let Vikramadiya slip through their hands.

I'm not sure I buy that completely, I think there are still a lot of things that can happen. Keep in mind the difference in price is close to $600 million. That is a lot of money.

For $600 million, India could get the Kitty Hawk much faster than the Gorshkov, and the Kitty Hawk is in pretty good condition. I still think that is an ace card that India may play in negotiations. While a lot of people assume the multi-role fighter deal is all but done with Russia, I think these two issues can easily become one in the same.

The Gorshkov is barely being worked on, the work force has almost entirely moved indoors for the winter to work on the new submarines. With the Russias offer of $1.2 billion for delivery in 4 years, and potentially higher cost if they add shakedown costs, this deal is beginning to look really dumb on paper if indeed the Kitty Hawk is an alternative as has been rumored.

That doesn't even include the bad reputation on quality Russia is piling up in current arms deals. If you note one similarity about the bad quality discussions, in all cases, the most recent being Algeria, the equipment sold was cold war era restored sales. Exactly what the Gorshkov is.

[Firehorse]

If the Gorshkov get recomissioned into RFN, most likely it will be stationed in Vladivostok, with the Pac. Fleet. And as they get new CVs built, this older carrier may end up being sold to China! Besides the Kitty Hawk option, I wonder how much $ would be needed to bring already decomissioned & very similar JFK (CV-67) up to speed?

[Galrahn]

I wonder how much $ would be needed to bring already decomissioned & very similar JFK (CV-67) up to speed?

A ton of money, that ship is in bad shape.

[Firehorse]

If they get CV-63 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7262), it would make sense to get CV-67 just for parts!

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm not sure I buy that completely, I think there are still a lot of things that can happen. Keep in mind the difference in price is close to $600 million. That is a lot of money.

For $600 million, India could get the Kitty Hawk much faster than the Gorshkov, and the Kitty Hawk is in pretty good condition. I still think that is an ace card that India may play in negotiations. While a lot of people assume the multi-role fighter deal is all but done with Russia, I think these two issues can easily become one in the same.

The Gorshkov is barely being worked on, the work force has almost entirely moved indoors for the winter to work on the new submarines. With the Russias offer of $1.2 billion for delivery in 4 years, and potentially higher cost if they add shakedown costs, this deal is beginning to look really dumb on paper if indeed the Kitty Hawk is an alternative as has been rumored.

That doesn't even include the bad reputation on quality Russia is piling up in current arms deals. If you note one similarity about the bad quality discussions, in all cases, the most recent being Algeria, the equipment sold was cold war era restored sales. Exactly what the Gorshkov is.



I agree this is a possibility. If the price goes up again to about $2bn then this may be too much for the indians to take. The RFN should be pleased with the addition of annother carrier to its orbat, it will provide a level of persistance they have not enjoyed since '93 (assuming Kuznetov and Gorshkov are maintained properly).

As for the kitty hawk option that is a big big call. It may be in decent nick at the moment but it will be an order of magnitude more expensive, complex, maintinance intenceive and harder to protect than the Viraat. They'd be going from a helicopter carrer with harriers to a 3 cat, 80 000t supercarrier! Thats like going from crawling to competeing in the 100m sprint overnight. The kitty hawk is overkill. Too big, to complex, too expenseive, to maintinance intenceive and a waste unless you equip it with a comperable air group which means 50+ aircraft. To be honest i would be astounded if the indians bought Kitty Hawk, even if she is for sale.

If Gorshov falls through i would expect the Viraat would jut sbe kept in service for annother 4~6 years untill it is replaced by the Vikrant class CV. IIRC steel has already been layed down, they may want to build annother one sooner rather than later.

[tphuang]

If the Gorshkov get recomissioned into RFN, most likely it will be stationed in Vladivostok, with the Pac. Fleet. And as they get new CVs built, this older carrier may end up being sold to China! Besides the Kitty Hawk option, I wonder how much $ would be needed to bring already decomissioned & very similar JFK (CV-67) up to speed?
no way China will buy something like this. IN should just wise up and kiss the ship goodbye and ask the Russians to pay back their losses. Purchase one of the European designs. Of course, that would require a huge shake up, but why would you want to purchase anymore Russian ships?

[Ozzy Blizzard]

no way China will buy something like this.

Agreed. PLAN is in a stronger financial position than IN ATM, so why would they take on a failed rusian refit effort when their own CV programmes are in full swing?

IN should just wise up and kiss the ship goodbye and ask the Russians to pay back their losses. Purchase one of the European designs. Of course, that would require a huge shake up,

This is unnessisary IMO. They have their own CV programme, and unless they want a Invincible style pocket carreier they're going to have to go for a super carrier 'esk CVF. WAY too expenseive, WAY to big and western fit out. Just keep Viraat in service untill 2012~14 untill Vikrant comes on lin, but just build 2 of them.

[kams]

Things are getting worse for Sevmash.

Norwegian Odfjell cancels deal with Sevmash (http://www.barentsobserver.com/norwegian-odfjell-cancels-deal-with-sevmash.4459747-16149.html)



2008-02-21
The Norwegian shipping major Odfjell has cancelled its contract with the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, Arkhangelsk Oblast, over the construction of a series of chemical tankers. The reason is serious delays and cost overruns with the construction of the vessels.
The cancelled contract could seriously harm the Russian shipyard’s reputation both domestically and abroad.

The agreement, which included up to 12 tankers, was signed in 2004 and promoted as an historic deal in Norwegian-Russian industrial relations. The contract was worth 500 million USD.

-We are very disappointed, company leader Terje Storeng says to newspaper Dagens Næringsliv. He adds that the Russian shipyard has acted with disrespect as well as a lack of will to meet the contract conditions.
The cancelled contract is another blow to the reputation of the Russian shipyard, world famous for its construction of nuclear-powered submarines. From before, the shipyard is struggling to overcome a crisis in its relations with the Indian Navy, following delays and cost overruns with an aircraft carrier, as well as a diesel-powered submarine.

–They have shown no will to try to understand that this is a commercial project. They have deliberately sabotaged and delayed the project, Mr. Storeng maintains to DN.no

“Following serious delays in the construction process, combined with demands for further price increases from the Yard, continuous cooperation problems as well as protracted negotiations, Odfjell decided today to serve formal notice of cancellation to Sevmash”, today’s press release from Odfjell reads.
It remains an open question how much compensation Odfjell will demand from Sevmash. The case could end up in court should the Russian shipyard not agree to Odfjell demands.

The Sevmash shipyard has long promoted its capacities in connection with the development of oil and gas projects in the Barents Sea, including the Shtokman project. The relations with Odfjell, as well as the Indian Navy, is likely to seriously hamper the company’s chances for new commercial contracts in the sector.

That's hard hitting statement and response from Norwegians. Now this clears all the speculation about Russian going slow on Vickramaditya on account of Ind-US bonhomie! and how IN navy tried to get the ship for peanuts when Russians were in bad ship. They screwing everybody!

In related news..

link (http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/5F699B9C1D1C7972652573F600543C3B?OpenDocument)

Moscow, Feb 21 (PTI) India and Russia have launched experts-level talks to thrash out the "few remaining" technical and financial issues pending on the upgrading of aircraft carrier Gorshkov, a senior Russian official said today.
"Hectic efforts are on at all levels to resolve the issue of Gorshkov, which was discussed at the highest political level by President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and now few remaining technical and financial issues are being discussed at experts level," Director of 2nd Asia Department of the Russian Foreign Ministry Alexander Maryasov said.

Defence Secretary Vijay Singh is presently leading a high-level Indian delegation to Russia to carry out physical verification of additional refit work needed on the aircraft carrier to justify additional costs as claimed by Moscow.



In a parallel development, RAC MiG Corporation today announced that it will deliver 16 MiG-29K fighters developed for Gorshkov to India by June this year.

According to the initial agreement, 12 Fighters and 4 fighter-trainers were to be deployed on Gorshkov after its induction by the Indian navy as INS Vikramaditya. PTI

So we will have the Migs and no platform to fly them for next 3-4 years. Looking at the bright side, they me be loaned to IAF.

[harryriedl]

Things are getting worse for Sevmash.

Norwegian Odfjell cancels deal with Sevmash (http://www.barentsobserver.com/norwegian-odfjell-cancels-deal-with-sevmash.4459747-16149.html)



That's hard hitting statement and response from Norwegians. Now this clears all the speculation about Russian going slow on Vickramaditya on account of Ind-US bonhomie! and how IN navy tried to get the ship for peanuts when Russians were in bad ship. They screwing everybody!

In related news..

link (http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/5F699B9C1D1C7972652573F600543C3B?OpenDocument)







So we will have the Migs and no platform to fly them for next 3-4 years. Looking at the bright side, they me be loaned to IAF.
and then when you want the Migs back IAF won't oblige:D as they like them very much.
Severmash seems to be a cowboy outfit as nobody seems happy with them
i wonder who will build the Chemical tankers now Korea, Japan, France

[contedicavour]

Amazing how the Sevmash shipyards are getting into a deeper mess every month. The Indian Navy must be extremely upset. The whole Gorshkov transfer will end up costing like a new build indigenous aircraft carrier at this speed. Hell it might even end up being operational at the same time ?!

May be they should start thinking of some stop-gap programme until the IAC enters service and until the Gorshkov limps its way to Indian harbours... may be one of the Invincibles in reserve in the RN ? No good to play around with the new MIG29s but there are still 22 Harriers to fly and Viraat is getting sooooooooo old (soon 50 years old...)

cheers

[swerve]

...May be they should start thinking of some stop-gap programme until the IAC enters service and until the Gorshkov limps its way to Indian harbours... may be one of the Invincibles in reserve in the RN ? No good to play around with the new MIG29s but there are still 22 Harriers to fly and Viraat is getting sooooooooo old (soon 50 years old...)

cheers

There's one Invincible in reserve - Invincible herself. I don't think India has 22 flyable Sea Harriers left, though the number could potentially be boosted slightly by buying the few remaining ex-RN Sea Harriers still available in the UK (& yes, there are a few). The decision to reject those that were offered when the RN SHARs were withdrawn from service must be one of the worst procurement decisions ever. Rejected because they were offered without the radar or missiles, when the Indian navy was already negotiating for an upgrade of their entire fleet with the EL/M-2032 & Derby, & they could simply have been plugged into the programme!

[contedicavour]

There's one Invincible in reserve - Invincible herself. I don't think India has 22 flyable Sea Harriers left, though the number could potentially be boosted slightly by buying the few remaining ex-RN Sea Harriers still available in the UK (& yes, there are a few). The decision to reject those that were offered when the RN SHARs were withdrawn from service must be one of the worst procurement decisions ever. Rejected because they were offered without the radar or missiles, when the Indian navy was already negotiating for an upgrade of their entire fleet with the EL/M-2032 & Derby, & they could simply have been plugged into the programme!


Oh yes you are right, very bad mistake they made...
Transferring/leasing the Invincible itself would be a good idea to allow the IN to have at least one carrier (although small) in those inevitable moments when the 50+ year old Viraat/Hermes just can't sail anymore.
The first IAC arrives in 2012, and the Gorshkov probably not before 2010...

cheers

[harryriedl]

Amazing how the Sevmash shipyards are getting into a deeper mess every month. The Indian Navy must be extremely upset. The whole Gorshkov transfer will end up costing like a new build indigenous aircraft carrier at this speed. Hell it might even end up being operational at the same time ?!

May be they should start thinking of some stop-gap programme until the IAC enters service and until the Gorshkov limps its way to Indian harbours... may be one of the Invincibles in reserve in the RN ? No good to play around with the new MIG29s but there are still 22 Harriers to fly and Viraat is getting sooooooooo old (soon 50 years old...)

cheers
a tiny nit pic Hermes can be called over 60 years old and won't be retired till 2012 at the earliest aged 70 years old. as it was layed down in 1944 but wasn't completed till 1954 and there are 15 Indian Harriers i think and according to Wiki[i know thats not most reliable source but best i can do at the moment]

I honestly can't think of an effective ansew to the Gorskhov an other problem with Invinisable is that it isn't up for sale till 2010 anyway.

[/LIST]

[contedicavour]

a tiny nit pic Hermes can be called over 60 years old and won't be retired till 2012 at the earliest aged 70 years old. as it was layed down in 1944 but wasn't completed till 1954 and there are 15 Indian Harriers i think and according to Wiki[i know thats not most reliable source but best i can do at the moment]

I honestly can't think of an effective ansew to the Gorskhov an other problem with Invinisable is that it isn't up for sale till 2010 anyway.

[/LIST]

Your (I mean British) carriers last so long that Invincible could be kept in service in India as a backup until 2030 ;)
Let's say the RN accepts to turn it over 1 year early in 2009 and the deal could be worth it...
Otherwise the IN will remain clearly without a reliable carrier until after 2010...

cheers

cheers

[Salty Dog]

From the official USS Kitty Hawk website:

"USS Kitty Hawk will be turning over duties as the Navy’s only forward-deployed aircraft carrier to USS George Washington (CVN 73) in the summer of 2008. Kitty Hawk will return to the West Coast after that and will eventually decommission."

The USS Kitty Hawk, CV-63 should decommission in 2008. Whilst I am sure it is well worn out, it would be interesting stop-gap for the IN for a flat-top and a chance to experience CATOBAR operations should India acquire it as a hot-transfer.

[contedicavour]

From the official USS Kitty Hawk website:

"USS Kitty Hawk will be turning over duties as the Navy’s only forward-deployed aircraft carrier to USS George Washington (CVN 73) in the summer of 2008. Kitty Hawk will return to the West Coast after that and will eventually decommission."

The USS Kitty Hawk, CV-63 should decommission in 2008. Whilst I am sure it is well worn out, it would be interesting stop-gap for the IN for a flat-top and a chance to experience CATOBAR operations should India acquire it as a hot-transfer.

Yes I just read something similar on the weeklystandard site. The transfer would come with 65 F18s and would pave the way for a potential win of the F18E/F in the Indian Air Force future fighter contest...
Now that would be a major hit for the Russian defence industry !!!

cheers

[kams]

Yes I just read something similar on the weeklystandard site. The transfer would come with 65 F18s and would pave the way for a potential win of the F18E/F in the Indian Air Force future fighter contest...
Now that would be a major hit for the Russian defence industry !!!

cheers


We will have to wait for Robrt gates visit to know the truth! Can't imagine IN having the budget for 65 F18's. In addition Kitty Hawk doesn't fit in to IN's 2020 plan of having 3 Carrier groups. Unless 4000 US sailors decide to take up Indian Citizenship, IN will difficulty in manning her for next 3 years. ;)

In case KH offer is taken up by IN, it will be a political and strategic decision, which will define India's foreign policy for next half century. This is not an easy decision and GoI has to tread very carefully.

In another development Lockmart is bidding for the contract to build 7 P-17A Frigates for IN. They are tying up with India's L&T and Korea's Hundai. Aegis is on the offer.

[Galrahn]

We will have to wait for Robrt gates visit to know the truth! Can't imagine IN having the budget for 65 F18's. In addition Kitty Hawk doesn't fit in to IN's 2020 plan of having 3 Carrier groups. Unless 4000 US sailors decide to take up Indian Citizenship, IN will difficulty in manning her for next 3 years. ;)

In case KH offer is taken up by IN, it will be a political and strategic decision, which will define India's foreign policy for next half century. This is not an easy decision and GoI has to tread very carefully.

In another development Lockmart is bidding for the contract to build 7 P-17A Frigates for IN. They are tying up with India's L&T and Korea's Hundai. Aegis is on the offer.

I agree this is getting interesting. I think that weekly standard guy wrote his story after reading my blog, but I can't prove it. I said as much today (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/02/kitty-hawk-to-india-discussion-hits-us.html). It doesn't matter.

The fighter purchase is for 200 fighters, so getting F/A-18s isn't the issue. The KH can be delivered well before the Gorskhov, and cheaper if the rumors we have heard the last several months are true.

The question is two fold. 1) As kams points out this would be a huge strategic shift, it is unclear if that is something India is ready to do. 2) The KH is much bigger than the Gorskhov, and would require larger crew requirements and have higher operational costs in the future.

However, there is no way someone can look at the Gorskhov and think this is a good deal at this point, that contract with Norway that Sevmash just tossed away was the largest commercial shipbuilding export contract in Russia. It is hard to say with an attitude like that that Russia would take the Gorskhov contract any more seriously.

Lockheed Martin is trying to sell the LCS for the Project 17 frigates. It is basically the same LCS package the US is offering India, as both use the same weapons (Barak).

[contedicavour]

What would become of the MIG29K deal for the Indian Navy though if the Kitty Hawk were transferred or leased ? The first 15 or so are firm orders, but not the follow-on 30+ ...

Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.

It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us :)

cheers

[Jon K]

In case KH offer is taken up by IN, it will be a political and strategic decision, which will define India's foreign policy for next half century. This is not an easy decision and GoI has to tread very carefully.

Umm, for next half century? Which individual procurement decision made around 1957 defined Indian foreign policy for the last half century? USS Kitty Hawk is a mighty ship, but it won't certainly last for a half century anymore. It has limited life left for it. For the rest of it's operational life IN would be tied to US supply chain, but that won't last for a half century...

[funtz]

What would become of the MIG29K deal for the Indian Navy though if the Kitty Hawk were transferred or leased ? The first 15 or so are firm orders, but not the follow-on 30+ ...

Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.

It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us :)

cheers


The Migs can always wait and then serve on the Indigenous aircraft carriers. After all that is what the follow on 30+ were supposed to do.

However, what will become of the indigenous aircraft carrier project? that is the more important "future" (at least more than the stop-gap, space-filler), if the 60-65 planes for the Kitty are in the Navy, where will they serve except the Kitty.

Can that be translated to a shore based existence post Kitty? that might work if the AF has the need for some ;)? or, will the planes be able to work off the short take off with limited loads, which might be a problem (as i guess having too many types on a single small carrier will only complicate things.)

Russia may try to leverage for all things important to the modernization of the Navy and under construction.
Will that cause any other result except lost cash for Russia? After all they are not the only ones that will get the part of 45 billion dollar Indian military funds.


Lockheed Martin is trying to sell the LCS for the Project 17 frigates. It is basically the same LCS package the US is offering India, as both use the same weapons (Barak).

you meant
Israel -> barak-barak8-MF star
right o

[nevidimka]

I'm more interested in knowing if the Mig29K can be operated from the KH CATOBAR. Surely a slight modification to itslanding gear would allow it to use the launching by CATOBAR? Or is it not?

Only other major difference would be IN inability to operate fixed wing AEW, as they dont have them in the inventory.

[Salty Dog]

I'm more interested in knowing if the Mig29K can be operated from the KH CATOBAR. Surely a slight modification to itslanding gear would allow it to use the launching by CATOBAR? Or is it not?

Only other major difference would be IN inability to operate fixed wing AEW, as they dont have them in the inventory.

It should be easy to modify the Mig-29K for a cat shot since most of the stress on the airframe should be on the landing trap.

I´m sure the E-2 will fit in nicely for AEW. It's also used by the French.

[Galrahn]

Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.

It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us :)

Agreed, should be interesting. There are several things Russia can leverage here.

[Galrahn]

you meant
Israel -> barak-barak8-MF star
right o

Yep, nice catch!