Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion [Archive] - Page 10

aaaditya

August 20th, 2007, 09:01 PM

Kato I don't know if it would be cheaper, perhaps the seaframe itself would be cheaper, but I imagine the systems would increase the cost.

For India I think there are a lot of questions, not sure how this would play out exactly. Speculating, I think it is unlikely the LCS seaframe for India would be built in the states, I actually assume it would be built in an European yard. Also, I do not know if AEGIS is included, rather there might be some other systems integration there, but I don't really know.

One would have to assume India would want Barak and Brahmos, which would lead to a different systems integrator. I think there are some interesting options here for India, although I believe at the end of the day Russia is going to have a say in this.

the aegis system was offered to india sometime back but was rejected,india will most likely go for the indo-israeli super barak misisles to equip these new frigates.

contedicavour

August 21st, 2007, 04:39 AM

Would be my thought, and yes radiosilence there is a big difference in costs.

I'm not saying its so, I am just saying I won't be surprised if the shipbuilding takes place somewhere besides the US for India.

So long as the dollar's exchange rate remains weak, I suspect US shipyards have a temporary reprieve in terms of cost vs European shipyards...
Although I'm not an expert on this, the US shipyards remain competitive on military shipbuilding even if they have almost abandoned most civilian construction to Asian (and to a lesser extent European) shipyards.

cheers

swerve

August 21st, 2007, 06:30 AM

I don't think the cost would be significantly different in Europe.

For civilian shipping, there's definitely a cost advantage. That may be temporarily diminished by the weakness of the dollar, but I doubt anyone's going to place long-term bets on it staying so weak.

The US commercial industry builds very few large vessels & virtually no ships for export. Its biggest markets seem to be the US government (non-navy), US inland waterways, US fisheries, & US offshore oil. Would be about the 10th biggest national commercial shipbuilding industry in Europe, if it moved here, but conspicuous by its lack of exports. A bit like British commercial shipbuilding :(

aaaditya

August 25th, 2007, 08:46 AM

hey guys,great news here,indian navy has accepted the indigenously developed shneya class of advanced experimental torpedos,these are short ranged,light weight torpedos designed for launch from helicopters ,bombers and light warships.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/24/stories/2007082452630600.htm

‘Navy has accepted advanced torpedoes’

Staff Reporter

BDL has taken up its production, says Sivathanu Pillai

COIMBATORE: The advanced experimental torpedo designed by Defence Research and Development Organsiation (DRDO) has been accepted by the Navy.
Its production has been taken up by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) of Hyderabad, A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller of DRDO and Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace said here on Thursday.
Dr. Pillai told reporters that the advanced light weight torpedo would be used as an underwater weapon by the Navy.
Self-reliance

With this breakthrough the DRDO was reaching a stage of self-reliance in under water applications. It was now looking at heavy weight torpedoes, Dr. Pillai said.
“Work on unmanned vehicles in underwater is under way and is in the prototype stages at the Naval Science and Technology Laboratory at Vishakhapatnam. The vehicle will initially do surveillance work. Later it might be considered for civilian uses too,” he added.
He said most of the naval materials had been indigenised.
DRDO was also in the process of developing a fuel cell that would have “tremendous civilian applications”.
It could be considered as an alternative to propel cars, he said.

contedicavour

August 27th, 2007, 05:20 AM

aaaditya

August 27th, 2007, 10:12 AM

IIRC the Indian Navy used WASS A244S light torpedoes previously. Would these be an evolution of A244S or MU90 or an entirely Indian design ?

cheers

i remember reading sometime back ,that these indian torpedos were based on the italian light weight torpedos ,however they are marginally lighter than the italian torpedos.

other torpedos of indigenous development currently in advanced stage of development are the thakshak heavy torpedo and the varunastra thermal long range heavy weight torpedos.

contedicavour

August 27th, 2007, 04:56 PM

i remember reading sometime back ,that these indian torpedos were based on the italian light weight torpedos ,however they are marginally lighter than the italian torpedos.

other torpedos of indigenous development currently in advanced stage of development are the thakshak heavy torpedo and the varunastra thermal long range heavy weight torpedos.

Very interesting. Would this totally exclude imports of foreign torpedoes (I mean the heavy sub-launched variant) like Blackshark or the development is still in too early a stage ? I'm writing this because both Chile and Malaysia have selected Blackshark for their Scorpene.

cheers

aaaditya

August 28th, 2007, 07:29 AM

Very interesting. Would this totally exclude imports of foreign torpedoes (I mean the heavy sub-launched variant) like Blackshark or the development is still in too early a stage ? I'm writing this because both Chile and Malaysia have selected Blackshark for their Scorpene.

cheers

the indian navy is acquiring the blackshark torpedos to arm the scorpene submarines,however the varunastra and thakshak are in late stages of construction and developmental testing.

contedicavour

August 28th, 2007, 10:14 AM

the indian navy is acquiring the blackshark torpedos to arm the scorpene submarines,however the varunastra and thakshak are in late stages of construction and developmental testing.

Ah good news for WASS-Finmeccanica, I wasn't aware that India had acquired Blackshard !

cheers

aaaditya

August 29th, 2007, 01:25 AM

Ah good news for WASS-Finmeccanica, I wasn't aware that India had acquired Blackshard !

cheers

india had also expressed interest in the mu90 eurotorp ,however i dont know the status of this acquisition plan.

contedicavour

August 29th, 2007, 04:26 AM

india had also expressed interest in the mu90 eurotorp ,however i dont know the status of this acquisition plan.

That would make sense, as MU90 has replaced the A244S in the Italian Navy both for helicopters and on the Mk46-style launchers aboard the FFGs and DDGs.

cheers

Truculent

August 31st, 2007, 06:35 PM

This link seems to suggest that India will commision an Akula -II next year.
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/08/india-secret-nuke-sub-deal.html
Where will it be based?

Gripenator

September 1st, 2007, 06:16 AM

This has been circulating around for quite a while. Indeed, what is the status of this project and what is the status of the Project 76 SSK?

A friend of mine formerly of the Indian Naval Establishment is furious at what he terms the 'incompetance' and 'pig headedness' of the Indian MoD in awarding contracts for the Project 75 (Scorpene deal) and the severely delayed ATV project.

On an interesting note, he speculates that Project 76 could be won by the Amur SSK design customized with Israeli and German subsystems-preferred by serving IN officers.

nero

September 1st, 2007, 04:31 PM

india had also expressed interest in the mu90 eurotorp ,however i dont know the status of this acquisition plan.

. u r apreading rumours now. just stop it.

india has no plans to introduce the Mu-90.

please provide a link so that ur outlandish claims can be verified.

also news about the blackshark is totally baseless. india will probablu use their own indegenous light weight torpedo, which is under development.

.

contedicavour

September 3rd, 2007, 05:47 AM

. u r apreading rumours now. just stop it.

india has no plans to introduce the Mu-90.

please provide a link so that ur outlandish claims can be verified.

also news about the blackshark is totally baseless. india will probablu use their own indegenous light weight torpedo, which is under development.

.

Ehm Blackshark is a heavy torpedo, not a light one. And so far most Scorpenes sold around the world use Blackshark. So may be no firm decision has been taken, but chances are indeed high.

cheers

aaaditya

September 3rd, 2007, 02:10 PM

Ehm Blackshark is a heavy torpedo, not a light one. And so far most Scorpenes sold around the world use Blackshark. So may be no firm decision has been taken, but chances are indeed high.

cheers

blackshark is the weapon of choice for the indian navy scorpenes.

here check out this link:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Scorpene.html

aaaditya

September 10th, 2007, 11:30 PM

hey guys ,interesting news here ,it seems that the indian navy plans to re-engine its tu-95 bears with newer engines.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/10/216674/new-engines-for-russian-and-indian-bears.html

Russia's Nikolai Kuznetsov's Samara Scientific Technical Complex (Kuznetsov SNTK) is resuming production of its NK-12 turboprop engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznetsov_NK-12) under orders from the Russian and Indian defence ministries as part of a re-engining programme for their respective fleets of Tupolev Tu-95 bombers and Tu-142 maritime surveillance aircraft.
An initial six engines are due to be delivered late this year, with India having placed orders in late 2006. Moscow's upgrade programme comes in the wake of president Vladimir Putin's 17 August order to resume round-the-clock long-range air patrols. Royal Norwegian Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 and UK Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado F3 fighters on 6 September intercepted a formation of eight Tu-95s over the North Sea.

aaaditya

September 10th, 2007, 11:44 PM

here is an interesting article,on the lessons learnt by the indian navy from the malabar-07 excercises ,and the benefits it would provide the indian navy ,in it's quest to become a more potent force.

here is the link and article:

http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/215311.html

USS Kitty Hawk/ Port Blair, September 8:Mid-air refueling is a standard practice for any modern air power in the world. The ability of a fighter aircraft to refuel in flight not only gives it extended range to reach out to a target but also enhances its ability to stay up in the air to protect an asset.

However, when an Indian Sea Harrier fighter “buddy refueled” from an F-18 Super Hornet in the middle of the Bay of Bengal, the commander of the largest forward deployed US Navy fleet considered it to be the highlight of the six day Malabar 07-2 war games. “These are the sort of things that require really high end skills. There is no other exercise available to develop such capabilities,” Vice Admiral William Crowder, US 7th fleet commander said, minutes after explaining that the five-nation exercises are not directed towards “any particular country.”

Forget China — the two aircraft carrier strike groups in the exercise (Viraat and Kitty Hawk), sailing just a few hours away from the Malacca straits, are competent enough to squeeze the Asian economic giant’s energy imports, Indian officers say that such skills pave the way for joint strikes and missions by the five countries against any common threat.
No surprise then that the entire war game was conducted as per standards followed in NATO missions. All Indian ships were attuned to NATO standard communication frequencies, technical terminology, command structures and were even fitted with special US equipment to connect to its CENTRIX satellite communication system. Officers confirmed that a detailed NATO standards ‘MTP’ document spelling out the standards was handed to the Indian Navy earlier in the year to prepare for the exercise.
The standardization and homework paid off. The clockwork precision with which the war games went off even managed to surprise Indian naval officers who have witnessed many bilateral exercises in the past.
“The smoothness of operations was incredible. We understand each other’s way of communication and to some extend have got an insight to the thinking each side does,” an Indian Navy Officer, who had earlier participated in the 2005 Malabar exercises said.
Interoperability apart, for the Indian Navy that is in the threshold of becoming a maritime force to reckon with, the opportunity to learn and compete with the sole superpower in the world was in the words of an officer “priceless.”
Multi-Carrier operations for instance, is something that the navy needs to work on before the induction of its two new aircraft carriers in the next seven years. “(The main skill set gained is) Multi carrier operations. Three carriers operating at the same time is something we are not used to yet,” says Vice Admiral RP Suthan, commander in chief of the eastern command.
Moreover, with China starting the construction of its indigenous aircraft carrier this year, it helped to practise pitching two carriers against each other during the exercise to hone air defence skills.
The opportunity to track and ‘destroy’ a nuclear submarine (USS Chicago) during Malabar gave the Indian Navy — more attuned to Soviet philosophy gained by the operation of a Russian nuke sub in the late 1980s — a rare close look into the tactics adopted by Western countries.
The two Indian officers onboard the Chicago too picked pointers on how to avoid detection and attack by the enemy which would come in handy when it inducts a Akula-II Russian nuclear submarine next year.
While the Indian Navy is not any match to its American counterpart in terms of technology — a “shooter” on board Kitty Hawk who is responsible for the safe catapult launch of aircraft from deck jokingly commented that the Viraat could be spotted from miles due the black smoke it emits — the exchange of skills is in no way one-sided.
With the planned acquisition of two new aircraft carriers by 2014 (Gorshkov and the Air Defence Ship), the induction of the Akula II and the launch of the indigenous ATV nuke sub next year plus the phased acquisition of an entire new line of destroyers, the Indian Navy is on its way to becoming perhaps the second most potent maritime power in the world. And, as Vice Admiral Yoji Koda, commander of the Japan Maritime Self Defence Force (JMSDF) puts it — “Internationally, Navies understand each other.”

su-30mki

September 22nd, 2007, 05:09 AM

INS Talwar to add punch to Indian Navy

Vinay Shukla in St Petersburg | June 18, 2003 20:27 IST

India on Wednesday entered the stealth warfare era with the induction of Krivak-III class frigate INS Talwar, which Naval chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh said would be the sharpest sword of the country's maritime forces and would add punch to its naval might.

"Every navy tries to acquire longer-range weapons and sensor capability. This ship has much larger range and sensor capability than any ship of the Indian Navy has today. It will enable India to target more further away," Admiral Singh told PTI after the formal commissioning of the frigate at a colourful ceremony.

INS Talwar is first to be inducted among the three new-generation stealth frigates India had orderd from Russia under a $ 900 million deal.

The second frigate INS Trishul will be inducted on June 25, when Defence Minister George Fernandes is expected to visit St Petersburg to attend the International Maritime Salon-2003. The third frigate, INS Tabar, currently undergoing sea trials, is to be delivered by the end of this year.

Admiral Singh noted that Krivak-III class frigates of the Project 1135.6 are the example of a new trend in Indo-Russian naval cooperation, which has now confidently moved to joint designing, production and technology transfer.

A large number of new generation systems, including sonar 'Hans', fitted on the Talwar class Indian frigates are designed and developed in India, he added.

Admiral Singh said that India is firm on its policy of self reliance in defence production and the country's three main shipyards have built 90 ships and vessels for the navy.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/18ship.htm

Agressor1

October 18th, 2007, 03:32 AM

hey guys here are the contenders for the indian navy's maritime patrol helicopter deal.

The Indian navy has begun evaluating four proposals for its anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopter replacement requirement, writes Brendan Sobie.
Industry sources say bids have been submitted by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) offering the Eurocopter EC725, NH Industries the NH90, Sikorsky the S-70B and by the US Navy for the new Sikorsky-built, Lockheed Martin integrated MH-60R.
The Indian navy is looking to replace its ageing Westland Sea King fleet, which when delivered in the 1980s consisted of over 40 aircraft, and initially plans to acquire 16 replacements and take eight options. The navy will conduct field evaluations after finishing technical evaluations, but the manufacturers have not yet been provided with a schedule for site visits. A contract could be signed as early as next year, but sources say the navy may opt to delay the acquisition and instead buy a proposed 10t indigenous helicopter from HAL.
The Indian manufacturer plans to select a foreign company to help it launch a five-year indigenous development or co-development programme. Sources say Eurocopter and Sikorsky are now preparing proposals, which will be submitted to HAL around mid-year. Sources say Bell also met with HAL earlier this year to discuss co-developing a new helicopter that would have expanded Bell’s portfolio into the 10t category, but the US manufacturer has decided against submitting a bid.
AgustaWestland, which did not respond to the navy’s tender because its EH101 is too large for the requirement, is also unlikely to submit a bid for the HAL project.
Sources say Eurocopter is the frontrunner over Sikorsky because it has already teamed with HAL to offer the EC725 in response to the navy’s tender and the duo is also planning joint bids for other Indian helicopter acquisition prog
Its been a long time since we heard of the Sea King replacement deal. Anybody have the latest info on which helo has been chosen and in what numbers, when will they be delivered and so on.....

Its been a long time since we heard of the Sea King replacement deal. Anybody have the latest info on which helo has been chosen and in what numbers, when will they be delivered and so on.....

funtz

October 19th, 2007, 06:04 AM

"And if our Indian визави flatly will refuse to reconsider conditions of the contract, to them can quite offer the penalty. And the converted ship will return in fighting structure of the Russian fleet."
Source: http://shipbuilding.ru/rus/news/russian/2007/10/12/cg/
"If our dear indian friends disagree, well they can fly the MiG’s on water and forget about an aircraft carrier till 2014-2017”.

With the Mig 29K ready to come in to service, the lone aircraft carrier about to go to sleep, no news of the indigenous ADS in the media, it is very unlikely that the Indian Navy will like to take the compensation and run, they might be more interested in getting the ship and emloying some consultants to double-triple check every estimation the russians give (well there should have been one for this project).

I wonder if this was just pre-school estimation on work or an elaborate plot to trap a major client.

Going purely by the size of small Aircraft carriers, the Russians must have dropped some project to start the re-fitting, as there have not been any Russian aircraft carrier projects going on lately, in which case the Russians might be feeling as tapped as the Indians with the good old Gorshkov.

Has the minister of defense has covered this in the price escalation negotiations.

I just realised that if the deal fails we might have two floating museums, remains of a carrier battle group, and no aircraft carrier.

Its been a long time since we heard of the Sea King replacement deal. Anybody have the latest info on which helo has been chosen and in what numbers, when will they be delivered and so on.....

Well 18 seakings are being upgraded, atleast they are not going anywhere.

India to Upgrade 18 Sea Kings
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI
India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will upgrade 18 of the Indian navy’s anti-submarine Sea King Mk42 and -42B helicopters, using new warfare systems purchased from foreign firms, Indian Defence Ministry sources said.
Ministry officials approved the three-year, roughly $200 million effort in early October.

funtz

October 30th, 2007, 01:35 PM

Some warship technology products developed by Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL), Vishakapatnam will be handed over to Indian Navy in Vishakapatnam tomorrow. Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller (R&D), DRDO will hand over the products to Vice Admiral DSP Varma, Chief of Materials, Naval Headquarters.

NSTL is involved in development of warship technologies useful for evading detection by enemy, ships / submarines. These technologies are aimed for use in modern warships under design and construction. NSTL has nurtured these technologies in the recent past and is progressing strongly towards self reliance in this critical arena. Warship technology is a multidisciplinary field covering different aspect such as acoustics and electro-magnetics covering a wide band of frequencies. Hence an inter disciplinary and holistic approach has been adopted in developing these products.

A number of products were developed by NSTL to avert damages to naval ships in enemy attacks. Some of the products developed are acoustics enclosures, acoustic silencers, double stage vibration isolation system, Radar transparent ladder, stanchions, camouflage screens, helo net frames and composite blowers among many others. All these products were subjected to extensive laboratory and shipboard evaluations. After successful evaluations, these products were accepted for induction into Indian Navy.

Source: http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=32287

Indian Navy inducts indigenously developed technologies for evading detection of ships

By ANI
Wednesday October 31, 02:46 PM

The Indian Navy has now acquired indigenously developed technologies that would make its warships and submarines evade detection by enemies.

This has become possible by the efforts of the Defence Research and Development Organisation's special laboratory for developing naval technologies.

Among a variety of new products that Visakhapatnam-based Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) has developed are Radar Transparent Ladder and Camouflage Screens that would help the warships avoid being detected by enemies' surveillance systems.

Beside these, other new products developed by the NSTL include acoustics enclosures, which are specially designed to reduce the noise transmitted by the ship engines. Acoustic silencers and double stage vibration isolation system would also help in reducing the amount of sound level created by the ships.

The Indian Navy has been acquiring such technologies from different countries like Russia, and in recent years due to the indigenous development of such technologies, the Navy has been able to reduce its expenditure on these products significantly.

The NSTL is looking forward to achieve self-reliance in this critical arena too.

DRDO chief Dr. Sivathanu Pillai officially handed over these new products to the Indian Navy for induction today.

The induction was carried out only after a series of evaluation tests and extensive laboratory tests.

Source: http://in.news.yahoo.com/071031/139/6mmyd.html

Brief technical details of these products is given in this link.

http://www.drdo.org/tejas/warshiptechnstl.pdf

So more moves towards self reliance,
Light weight torpedoes, SV2000 maritime patrol radar-Mihir sonar for naval HAL Dhruv, work going on the heavy weight torpedoes, the aircraft carrier project, naval Tejas, and the above listed technologies

The Indian Navy seems to be having more success with the indigenous projects, good moves, any other indigenous projects in the pipeline?

The land of indigenous projects is with its own problems

The Navy, which has eight Dhruvs in its inventory, indicated that it was considering procuring around 60 of them. But, according to HAL sources, the Navy has stalled on signing a contract.

The helicopter to be chosen for the Navy’s surface fleet, including the Godavari class of frigates, will replace some of the Sea Kings, HAL-built Chetaks and Dhruvs, and possibly even the Russian Kamov-25s. The HAL has received the RFI, which, however, does not specify the number of helicopters or the weight class.

The Navy has been unhappy with fleet serviceability of the Dhruv and even complained to the Defence Ministry. Though the HAL has taken steps, including setting up a dedicated maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for helicopters, and brought down the line replacement unit failure rate of the ALH fleet during the first seven months of 2007 to 5.5 per 100 hours of flying, the latest irritant is over the hingeless main rotor’s foldable blades.

Source:http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/04/stories/2007110460971000.htm

funtz

November 7th, 2007, 03:11 PM

India to get Russian nuclear-powered submarines
Vishal Thapar / CNN-IBN
Published on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 at 21:48 in Nation section
New Delhi: Call it the warmth beneath the Indo-Russian chill. In the thick of a reported estrangement, the two sides are set to seal an agreement for the lease of two Akula class nuclear submarines to India.

This agreement will be the high point of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Moscow on November 10 – a reminder of the heyday of the Indo-Russian relationship. The Akulas will be delivered to the Indian Navy in 2008 on a lease of at least seven years.

So, what do the Akula submarines mean to the Indian Navy? Most importantly, these would help the Navy prepare for the induction of the ATV, India's indigenous nuclear-powered vessel-in-the-making which goes for sea trials in 2009. Strategic submarines are the key to India's quest for a credible nuclear deterrence.

For Russia, raising the stakes, it hopes, will increase Indian dependence as Moscow seeks to defend its position as No. 1 defence supplier to New Delhi.

“Existing dependence of India on Russian equipments is so large that even if there was an inclination to reduce it’s dependence is not going to come about,” says Ex-Envoy to Russia, Kanwal Sibal.

Russia is now linking India's energy security with defence trade. Sources tell CNN-IBN that Russia is willing to offer stakes to Indian entities in oil and gas exploration in Stockman and Sakhalin in exchange for New Delhi's commitments on defence orders particularly big ones like the deal in 126 fighter jets.

Akula submarines finally the link suggests that that the PM himself will sign the agreement, finally this news was around for such a long time some time reporting lease of 2, some times 3 and now 1 sub.
It seems the good old days are back again. back in 1988 India leased an Charlie class and now the Akula.
With the aircraft carrier disaster i fail to see how the navy fell for this, untill this was decided sometime back.
Hope they make a difference in the Navy's capabilities, probably they will field some more Klubs.
Any one have a credible link for information about the Akula subs, one that i can view?

Firehorse

November 8th, 2007, 06:07 PM

Try these:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/971.htm

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/akula/

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/2182.aspx

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Ahead_of_PMs_Russia_visit_Cabinet_clears_defence_d eals/articleshow/2529619.cms

“Russia is also set to lease out to India an Akula-II nuclear submarine for a period of 10 years beginning with 2008 or 2009,” the Izvestia national daily reported on Thursday.
http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/19/stories/2007101958551500.htm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_demands_answers_on_Gorshkov/articleshow/2510308.cms

There is a possibility that the USS Kitty Hawk (http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/About%20Hawk/About_Hawk.htm) (CV-63), once decomissioned next year (http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/welcome/Homeport_change/Decom_Faqs.html), may be transferred to IN as a stop gap. The Indians had a chance to take a close look at that carrier during recent joint exercises.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003525.html

AegisFC

November 8th, 2007, 07:06 PM

There is a possibility that the USS Kitty Hawk (http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/About%20Hawk/About_Hawk.htm) (CV-63), once decomissioned next year (http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/welcome/Homeport_change/Decom_Faqs.html), may be transferred to IN as a stop gap. The Indians had a chance to take a close look at that carrier during recent joint exercises.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003525.html

Yeah, that's not going to happen...:rolleyes:

Firehorse

November 8th, 2007, 07:24 PM

How do you know? The US is eager to cultivate India to contain China and to open new markets for military hardware.

AegisFC

November 8th, 2007, 09:18 PM

funtz

November 9th, 2007, 08:42 AM

Ya that is true, the navy is hoping for three carriers so that two are always available, there is a 2006 interview with Indian Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash explaining the situation.

YouTube - Indian Navy future plans

well the navy could sacrifice the fleet to get a floating museum and take the game of winning hearts and minds to the next level, will probably boost their old Cinderella status too.

Firehorse

November 9th, 2007, 04:29 PM

The Shitty Hawk is too similar in design to the current Nimitz's to be sold, it will either be put into mothballs or sunk in an undisclosed location.
Besides India couldn't afford to run it and crew it.

No, if not sold it will be turned into a museum or used for spares just like other CVs. CV-66 was sunk already- there is no need to sink another carrier. At the time of decomissionning, CV-62 (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv62-independence/cv62-independence.html)was in good shape- it's even less similar to CVN-68 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=CVN-68+&btnG=Google+Search)than CV-63, and could be a substitute for what the IN needs.

funtz

November 14th, 2007, 05:31 AM

No, if not sold it will be turned into a museum or used for spares just like other CVs. CV-66 was sunk already- there is no need to sink another carrier. At the time of decomissionning, CV-62 (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv62-independence/cv62-independence.html)was in good shape- it's even less similar to CVN-68 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=CVN-68+&btnG=Google+Search)than CV-63, and could be a substitute for what the IN needs.

I do not think a nimitz class will fit into the navy even if it was procured(with the associated costs somehow accounted),
for air defense-anti shiping sea denial role the nimitz class is much more than what is required, the recent operational history of the USN shows that USN has to fulfill a much more complex role they need large (in numbers and size) carriers groups for this purpose, Indian Navy on the other hand has a limited area where they will have to operate in possible hostile sea, it seems that a group of 12 + 12 fixed wing combat aircrafts and 10 or so helis per carrier are all that is needed, then again what do i know.

contedicavour

November 15th, 2007, 08:55 AM

I think the Indian Navy has already seen that taking second hand carriers isn't always the magical problem solver one could imagine... just look at the delays with the Gorshkov carrier... besides, the Indian Navy operates Harriers and (soon) navalized MIG29s. Neither needs catapults. Numbers-wise, there are 20 Harriers max that are operational at any given time, and eventually 2 dozen MIG29s. The Kitty Hawk makes sense if you have 60+ jets ready to operate from it... even if it's true that Indian sailors don't have the same salaries as USN ones ;)

cheers

funtz

November 15th, 2007, 10:24 AM

Camcopter S-100 successfully completes shipboard trials
Vienna, 12th November 2007 – On 4th October 2007 Schiebel’s CAMCOPTER® S-100 UAV System successfully completed a series of flights from an Offshore Patrol Vessel of the Indian Navy in the Arabian Sea.

http://www.skycontrol.net/uav/camcopter-s-100-successfully-completes-shipboard-trials/

about the Camcopter S-100 UAV

The S-100 light and strong carbon-fiber body together with a small but powerful 55HP Diamond engine allows the robotic chopper to stay in the air for up to six hours with a payload of 25-50kg of cameras and sensors.
The S-100 is designed as a medium range (around 130km) light and maneuverable unmanned aerial vehicle.
cost of approximately $400,000 a piece.

http://www.tfot.info/pod/288/camcopter-s-100-uav.html

Any effective sensors that weigh 25-50KG?

For a 6 hour, 130 KM range, 25-50 kg payload this UAV does not sound a good deal for the navy especially At 400,000$.

Was VTOL, a point that the navy preferred?

swerve

November 15th, 2007, 12:19 PM

...about the Camcopter S-100 UAV
Any effective sensors that weigh 25-50KG?

For a 6 hour, 130 KM range, 25-50 kg payload this UAV does not sound a good deal for the navy. At 400,000$ it sounds like another under the table payoff deal.

Was VTOL, a point that the navy preferred?

For operations off small vessels, VTOL is very valuable. There are other customers already, & competition in that weight range, being evaluated by various navies including the RN.

Yes, there are plenty of effective sensors at or below that weight. You can buy an AESA synthetic aperture radar that weighs 10 kg, designed specifically for smallish UAVs - the Selex PicoSAR - as well as a variety of electro-optical sensors.

Firehorse

November 15th, 2007, 09:56 PM

Wary of China, India to boost eastern naval fleet
http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-30499920071114
KOLKATA, India (Reuters) - India will strengthen its naval fleet on the eastern front, the regional commander said on Wednesday, adding destroyers and frigates among other ships, in an apparent move to counter Chinese interest in the region.

Over the next five years or so, India's plans include stationing an aircraft carrier in the Bay of Bengal along with at least half of the 32 new warships and six submarines India plans to add to its fleet, Vice Admiral Raman Suthan said in Kolkata.

The announcement comes a few months after India's air force said it would strengthen its presence in the east, adding new fighter jets and moving two squadrons of 36 state-of-the-art Russian-built Sukhoi-30 aircraft to the area.

They are also adding advanced helicopters, strengthening runways and upgrading other air force facilities - an apparent move to counter China's might.

"China has fuel interests of its own as fuel lines from Africa and the Gulf run through these waters, and so they are also building up their navy," Suthan said on board INS Sukanya, a naval warship at the Kolkata dockyard.

India has air and naval bases and listening posts across the eastern region. It considers the eastern sea routes vital to its security.

Many Indian defence experts believe that China has military or intelligence facilities on Myanmar's Coco Islands, a few miles away from India's Diglipur, 185 km north of Port Blair, capital of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

"We keep hearing about China's interest in Coco Island and are wary of its growing interest in the region, and we are keeping a close watch," Suthan said.

Although Suthan said he believed China had no facilities on Coco, he said the navy could not let its guard down.

"The naval fleet in east India has long legs and, with the government's emphasis on the look east policy, we are strengthening east now," Suthan added.

I think that India will also deploy cvs to W.Pac in the future.

robsta83

November 17th, 2007, 05:06 AM

I think that India will also deploy cvs to W.Pac in the future.

Why do you think that?

funtz

November 17th, 2007, 06:10 AM

I think that India will also deploy cvs to W.Pac in the future.
If the navy is lucy enough to get 3 aircraft carriers and the associated vessles to form the carrier groups there will be one carrier with the fleet and an assurance of always having two carriers operational.
What possible advantage will be around the western pacific ocean region.

funtz

November 19th, 2007, 09:11 AM

DELAY IN INS VIKRAMADITYA
Ministry of Defence
16:14 IST

Lok Sabha

The overall progress of repair and re-equipping of the ship, ex-Admiral Gorshkov, in Russia is slow.

The Russian side has submitted a revised Master Schedule indicating a delay in the project. The Russian side has attributed the delays to “Growth of Work”.

In order to supervise the project for repair and re-equipping of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya (earlier called Admiral Gorshkov), an apex level committee under Defence Secretary and a Steering Committee under a Vice Admiral have been set up. A team has also been stationed at the shipyard where the repair and re-equipping work is going on. From time to time, teams comprising senior officers are also sent to monitor progress of the project. The matters are also taken up between the two countries at appropriate level.

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Uday Singh in Lok Sabha today.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=32765

An apex committee under defence secretary, a steering committee under a vice admiral.
A team stationed in Russia to see the progress first hand.

With a tight budget that is over stretched as it is i hoped the Navy would have done all of this before ordering the ship, oh well hope the Navy has learned the lesson.

Hope the MiG-29Ks will be delivered by the time the AC arrives.

On another note, how does someone make errors in refitting their own ship?

Firehorse

November 28th, 2007, 06:45 PM

Why do you think that?
To outflank China, and to reassure Japan & Taiwan (http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2005/08/taiwan-and-india.html) that they are not a paper tiger!
..The Indian Navy has countered these moves by setting up a Far Eastern Naval Command (F.E.N.C.) facility off Port Blair on the Andaman Islands. F.E.N.C. can monitor China's naval activities in the region and expand India's naval power projection capabilities into the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea region. http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/press-coverage-2006/february-2006/the-emerging-cold-war-on-asias-high-seas
Taiwan, India Develop Military Ties (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/600654/posts)

BTW, the Brazilian navy may soon get a nuclear submarine. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hDDoyBU14OlsVxvDiQVCHvCHhfEAD8SUTBE00)http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/10003/1/

How about Brazil's friend India? IMO, for them it will make a lot of sense to get more survivable SSBNs as 2nd strike platforms, given that the PLAN already has a few!

India Pursuing Blue Water Navy, Ballistic Missile Sub
June 7, 2004 :: Defense News :: News
India has the ambition to join the other great powers of the world in having a blue water ballistic missile submarines, according to a story in Defense News. India’s recent adoption of a new military doctrine aimed at the acquisition of such vessels could help to counterbalance China’s own military buildup, detailed in the DoD report released last week. India is already planning to lease a Russian Akula-class sub, but will soon develop its own vessels.
The report does not specify what sort of ballistic missiles an Indian submarine may carry, but one sea launched ballistic missile India has been working on is the Dhanush.
http://www.missilethreat.com/missilesoftheworld/id.38/missile_detail.asp

I wonder what's the current status of this, 3.5 years later?

funtz

November 29th, 2007, 04:18 AM

BTW, the Brazilian navy may soon get a nuclear submarine. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hDDoyBU14OlsVxvDiQVCHvCHhfEAD8SUTBE00)http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/10003/1/
How about Brazil's friend India? IMO, for them it will make a lot of sense to get more survivable SSBNs as 2nd strike platforms, given that the PLAN already has a few!
I wonder what's the current status of this, 3.5 years later?

The status of the nuclear submarine in media is about as dark as it was then, a stable platform that is effective and provides the necessary depth must be always required.

Project Update: The first boat is expected to be launched sometime in 2008, followed by sea trials in 2009-10 and commissioning in 2011-12.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/ATV.html

Maseeh Rahman in Delhi
Tuesday September 11, 2007
The Guardian
After several setbacks, the top secret military programme appears to be nearing completion, and the nuclear submarine, codenamed the Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV), is expected to undergo sea trials next year before its induction into the Indian navy in 2009.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/nuclear/article/0,,2166610,00.html

Media Release
Jul. 9, 2006
"Here we have developed a non-hull penetrating technology to remove cumbersome periscopes from submarines. And we are ready to offer this technology for India's upgraded Kilo class submarines and its Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV)," Peter Mcbride, Director Naval exports of the company said.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10872.asp

why there is apparently a tv media report on the topic on you tube
YouTube - Advanced Technology Vessel

However i could find no specific statements from the officials.

To outflank China, and to reassure Japan & Taiwan (http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2005/08/taiwan-and-india.html) that they are not a paper tiger!
Taiwan, India Develop Military Ties (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/600654/posts)

Why would one need to reassure Japan and Taiwan, and moves for cold war maneuvering and posturing can prove to be too expensive, its more vital (in my opinion) to utilize the resources to ensure the security of the vital trade routes in all scenarios.

Even the addition of one carrier group to each fleets in the east and west (3 for some sort of always 2 operational deal) will not be easy, there is a carrier group experience for some time now, and i guess it will take some time to have a stable 2 carrier group navy that can use these resources effectively. Afterall a carrier group and associated activities must be more complex than buying a car and driving it.

Once a stable 2 carrier group navy is there with the hopefully improving economy and a stalemate in the strategic/diplomatic situation in Asia (threat scenario and perception not changing), i guess further naval objectives might include power projection, that might just be too far down the line. Someone more informed and involved might wish to share his/her views somewhere, the interview available on you tube in the post above might help.

I guess more immediate developments might include strategic partnerships with different nations.

Spacearrow99

November 29th, 2007, 09:38 PM

The Russians have offered the Admiral Sergei Gorshkov class design, to the Indians for their 17A frigate project.

funtz

November 30th, 2007, 10:25 AM

The Russians have offered the Admiral Sergei Gorshkov class design, to the Indians for their 17A frigate project.

Quoting this report perhaps

Russia offers a new Admiral Sergei Gorshkov to India
31 March 2007

Russia has offered India the export version of its new Project 22350 frigate as part of a tender for the construction of seven ships. The Russian offer is in response to a Request for Information (RFI), issued by India to about a dozen European, Russian and American shipyards in December last year.

The RFI is the first formal step in the process of military acquisition.

According to Indian defence industry sources, the proposed acquisition of these seven ships may well be worth more than Rs30,000 crore.

At the time the RFI was issued, the then newly anointed chief of the Indian naval staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta had said that the proposed acquisition was meant to offset the delay in the acquisition of modern equipment by the Indian Navy that had occurred over the past two decades.

This delay, Mehta said, were due to constraints on defence budgets and other factors, as also the inability of Indian shipyards to deliver ships on time.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070331_offers.htm

I think the very name Goshkov will raise quite some eyebrows now with the very famous delays, the navy goes on and on about the slow pace of modernization in all the news reports that can be seen, the recent delay reports might factor in future procurements.
If this project is alloted the above quoted figure of 30,000 crore Rs which will be by this hour about 7.59 billion dollars the navy might decide some other design.

The Hindu
Friday, Aug 17, 2007
Navy’s initiative to get stealth frigates
The RFI was issued last December to a number of Russian, European and American shipyards for building one vessel in an international shipyard and six in India, most probably at the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai, or the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata.

The Navy’s initiative comes in the wake of the inability of the Indian shipyards to deliver on time, and on account of delays in acquiring modern equipment in the past two decades due to constraints on defence budgets.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081762291700.htm

This is a old report from aug. however again filled with Irony, if the Indian shipyards are not delivering on time how on earth building 6 ships of the project at home will speed things up, what could be the nature of these delays?

Project 22350 FFG thread:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5587&page=2

The navy it seems will get a lot of money over the coming decades, they even submitted a grand plan this month to get the shipbuilding industry going, i think newer ships, bigger ships, indigenous production(eventually design) was the call (along with the huge need of supertankers by 2025, if the oil keeps on flowing i assume).

funtz

December 1st, 2007, 01:39 AM

The navy chief on a news channel

On the gorshkov deal

“There should be no escalation at all.”
“Virat can run for 7-8 more years

Virat on steroids for another 7 years, man that will look pathetic.
The sea harriers might just disappear by then, judging by the way at least 1 goes missing every year, I guess helicopters will be all that will run.
If the deal falls through, the MiG 29K will never see the carrier action, until its utilized for the Russian Navy.

On the Nuclear submarine:

“on the final threshold, 2 years or so”

Second line of Submarines:

“In the process of getting approvals, will go global”.

More money for the global industry, at least some one will be happy.

http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53379/russia-hikes-aircraft-price-india-refuses-to-buy-it.html?xml

sebenez

December 1st, 2007, 04:16 AM

A recent article in a leading daily in india suggest that the "hush-hush" project in chugging along smoothly, but that's about it, no further details were given

A friend in the circles says that the security around the shipyard is very very tight, no body can go past.

Industrial giant L&T are also a contractor in the project
that's all i know

YES, YOU ARE RIGHT. K.R.R.ENGINEERING PVT LTD, CHENNAI (E-Mail: asfab@vsnl.net) IS PRESSING TITANIUM ALLOY FOR THE SUBMARINE FABRICATED BY L&T, RANOLI. KRR IS SPECIALISED IN MULTI-PROFILE PRESSING OF DISHED ENDS AND TORICONES FOR NUCLEAR REACTORS OF THE 500MWe POWER PLANT COMING UP IN KALPAKKAM, NEAR CHENNAI.

[Mod edit] Two things -
Do not type in all capitals. It's impolite (akin to shouting) & harder to read than normal use of lower & upper case.
Your posts read suspiciously like advertisements. Do you have any connection with this firm? Any repetition of such posts will lead to termination of your account.

PJI

funtz

December 1st, 2007, 07:22 AM

See your in the marketing div. Ah! :D

more news in the papers about the IAC

Navy chief: Russia has to honour Gorshkov deal
1 Dec 2007, 0343 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

"It's a fixed price contract arising out of an inter-governmental agreement. It's an obligation of the Russian government to provide us with the warship, with the characteristics laid down in the contract," said Admiral Mehta.

"They now tell us they have come across some unforeseen requirements in the modernisation work on the carrier...discussions are being held to arrive at some conclusion soon," he added. What he left unsaid was that while India would be ready to pay another $500 million or so extra, an amount like $1.2 billion will make the project simply unsustainable.

Be that as it may, Navy is planning another refit of its aging but still powerful 28,000-tonne carrier INS Viraat in 2008 to take care of any contingency.

Then, of course, there is the 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) being built at Cochin Shipyard. But its delivery is likely to be possible only by 2014-2015 or so, instead of the revised deadline of 2012.

The Navy chief, however, is not too much worried. "We are monitoring IAC's progress. It should not be delayed beyond 2012. The second IAC is already on the drawing board. At least three IACs are planned," he said.

IAC: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier.

source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Navy_chief_Russia_has_to_honour_Gorshkov_deal_/articleshow/2586598.cms

3 IAC, sounds on the lines of the two AC statements by the Navy, this might take till 2020-2025 to come into being, after that depending on the available resources the 3 Aircraft carriers might become a regular feature in the Navy.

In what ways can the 2 Aircraft Carriers with each fleet by 2020 enhance/help the role of the navy in peacetime operations specifically in the region?

indian bull

December 1st, 2007, 01:43 PM

hey funtz please tell if Dhanush can be used as an antiship missile as it is a ballistic missile, as brahmos will be a better option as antiship cruise missile. or it will be used as nuclear tipped tactical weapon, i am really confused how it will be used.:confused:

funtz

December 2nd, 2007, 01:31 AM

Its a ship based launch platform for a ballistic missile(prithvi used for experiments. And a weird experiment

even if some sort of magical terminal stage radar homing warhead is put in it still does not justify wasting a whole ship and the men for a single missle, there are better ways to do the same thing,
similarly for a ship based missile it is too short legged and can not be carried in numbers. The chaps at DRDO claimed that the missile accuratly passed five check point on the way to hitting the target but even then i mean this is a long shot.

More of our tax money down the drain i guess.

It is because of this that i feel that sagarika is a launch platform/system for a ballestic missile from a sub.

indian bull

December 2nd, 2007, 08:11 AM

The difference i think is that Dhanush may be used as some tactical nuke weapon to destroy enemy ship formations and major sea shore targets rather than as an antiship missile. So it is not needed in great no.

hey man don't worry about money as it is going to be wasted on some other unfruitful projects if not on defence research.
Sagarika has been tested, i think drdo has acknowleged this, but again no clearity about it as ballistic or a cruise missile.

funtz

December 2nd, 2007, 09:24 AM

Even if its a tactical nuclear weapon for ships, where is the naval formation that we might face, which will justify a full out nuclear weapon, might as well fire them russian anti ship missiles.

Well anyways the defence research into stuff needs to continue, from food rations to space tech. it seems to be a use it or loose it art, and not worth loosing.

I think what was shown in the TV clips was a facility which was designed to simulate a submarine launch for the missile.

That user pic of yours is of the Dhanush based Prithvi launch.

indian bull

December 2nd, 2007, 01:27 PM

i mean a subkiloton weapon is a good candidate for dhanush which can be used against a group of enemy ships spread across some distance in the sea.

Yes its dhanush being fired from a ship. Man Dhanush is painted on it and not prithvi.

indian bull

December 2nd, 2007, 02:06 PM

read this :-
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Prithvi.html
Dhanush (in Sanskrit/Hindi means Bow) is a system consisting of a stabilization platform (Bow) and the Missile (Arrow). The system can fire either the SS-250 or the SS-350 variants. There may likely be certain customizations in missile configuration to certify it for sea worthiness.

Sagarika and Prithvi-III are two different acronyms for the same missile [2]. A related program, known as Project K-15, is in development and will enable the missile to be launched from a submerged submarine [3].
Also SS-350 variant has a range between 350-1000, it may be a 2 stage missile.

Firehorse

December 2nd, 2007, 05:29 PM

Why would one need to reassure Japan and Taiwan, and moves for cold war maneuvering and posturing can prove to be too expensive, its more vital (in my opinion) to utilize the resources to ensure the security of the vital trade routes in all scenarios.
Just as China some day will deploy to the Indian Ocean, India may reciprocate (by not staying only in the Indian Ocean) sending a CBG to S.China Sea & W. Pacific, if she is to become a global power! In the now closed "sinking carrier" tread I said that having a carrier evens the palying field- an IN CBG near the PRC may reduce PLAN's presense in India's backyard!

funtz

December 3rd, 2007, 04:28 AM

Just as China some day will deploy to the Indian Ocean, India may reciprocate (by not staying only in the Indian Ocean) sending a CBG to S.China Sea & W. Pacific, if she is to become a global power! In the now closed "sinking carrier" tread I said that having a carrier evens the palying field- an IN CBG near the PRC may reduce PLAN's presense in India's backyard!

Well that far in the future is something of a stretch, a navy seems to take a lot of time to expand,
Right now

the 3 indigenous aircraft carriers (see above navy chief comments), Project 15A(3), Project 17(7), Modified Krivak III(3), project 17A(7), project 28(12), 2 more shardul class, the line of French scorpion subs(6), another line of subs to start within 2 years, the indigenous nuclear subs of the ATV(nothing known about them) in 2 years, long-range maritime patrol/antisubmarine warfare aircraft(8).
(All through Bharat Rakshak navy site and the above stated comments of Navy Chief Admiral Suresh Mehta)

are confirmed additions, and a possibility of leased Akula’s via Russia-these might just be hotair like the backfire bombers, i wonder if the reports of indian navy personnel in Russia might just be the navy gearing up for a nuclear submarine instead of leasing some from Russia and may be even some other amphibious operation type vessels/landing ships, any further into future and it might become too speculative.

The Chinese interest in the Oceans around India is obvious, a lot of their trade passes through this area, and they are already cooperating with a host of nations to make sure their presence is firmly established. A move that is not India Specific (well may be to some degree, yes. However not entirely so)

Indian interests are: it’s the only trade route in-to and out-of India. With the energy requirements and trade growing at high rates, proposed infrastructure investments etc. etc. the needs of a stronger and capable navy (and military) arise and can not be ignored, the way one goes about doing this is a matter of opinion for me and a matter of policy/doctrine for the decision makers.

Recently news reports mentioned the steps that the navy has proposed for future of shipbuilding in India

“We have submitted a comprehensive Plan to the government seeking rapid expansion of ship building capacity. We have to graduate to the level of building super tankers and transfer the same technology to warship building,”
“Urgent steps need to be taken to drastically expand the capacity of existing shipyards and more shipyards need to come up,” the Naval Chief Admiral said.

http://www.indianpad.com/story/146345
This shows obvious concerns, and I am sure everyone has similar thoughts about their own field (military or civilian). Even this might be some time into the future.

I do not see the carrier groups (Indian-Navy and PLA-Navy) moving around the region to counter each others presence in the near future, the prime reason being that as of now they do not seem to be floating around in formation.

It might, however that day is quite far away? What do you think 2030-40?

When such obvious strategic movements start at the scale that will have a bearing on the events of that time, i suspect a lot of new relationships will come into picture, and we will have to wait and see how that goes.

As for

India may reciprocate (by not staying only in the Indian Ocean) sending a CBG to S.China Sea & W. Pacific, if she is to become a global power!

May well be, however the superpower 2050 plans that were going around and from which people extrapolate the global power ambitions and the foreign policy/strategic aims, is in-fact a statement for a vision, a goal, that goal includes a host of plans from health care improvement, economic policy, education policy, social reforms, resolving regional disputes etc. etc.

These are things that all nations wish for the future generations and the military part is to ensure a stability that makes all of this possible, instead of an overbearing presence in the region or the world, strategic partnerships are as much a part as anything else.

The effectiveness of the plan and the time line (the still to come 50’s) is more like guidelines instead of deadlines, and to top it all off it is not even something that is projected through the very irritating political propaganda, or the most important thing in national discussions.

Gripenator

December 3rd, 2007, 06:37 AM

funtz

December 3rd, 2007, 02:51 PM

20 years with new is a long time, with the planed additions in the region and improving intelligence gahering capabiliy the whole game might change.

There is a interesting insight into the situation.

China shaping the maritime battlefield, says Naval Chief
By ANI
Saturday December 2, 06:25 PM

Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, today said the Indian Navy is not Pakistan or China-centric, but was capability driven and committed to developing capabilities to protect the maritime interests of the nation.

He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters. In his maiden media interaction after assuming charge as Naval Chief, Admiral Mehta said: "China we believe is shaping the maritime battle field in the region. It is making friends at the right places. If you don't have the capability to operate in those waters, for a length of time, then you need friends who will support your cause, when the time comes, so definitely China is doing that, as there are Pakistan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and down below Africa. So it is a known fact that we are ringed by states, which may have a favourable disposition towards China. They are looking 20 years ahead."

he said that surveillance is of prime importance to the Indian Navy, and it is being heightened by means of electronic warfare system, long range maritime patrol aircraft, radars and UAVs.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/061202/139/69xp7.html

What on earth did he mean by saying:
He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters.

Any opinions about that?

Firehorse

December 3rd, 2007, 05:38 PM

He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters.
Any opinions about that?
IMO it was just posturing and bluffing- the IN doesn't yet operate a single SSN and would be very unhappy if Chinese were to operate in their backyard, in addition to Pakistanis! The correct phrase to use would have been: "it's not in the interests of India to face Chinese nuclear submarines in Indian waters".

tphuang

December 4th, 2007, 12:05 AM

FYI, some analysts believe a PLAN deployment in the Indian Ocean is imminent with the completion of the Gwadar seaport in Western Pakistan, the port certainly can accomodate a DDG although a 6000t carrier may be out of the question-the hypothetical deployment has nothing to do with being a major power (displaying the flag), the intent is merely to "safeguard" crude oil from the Gulf to the Straits of Malacca although I really don't understand how exactly the PLAN can do that even if they had a "CBG" on paper, not having the necessary tactics, doctrine or integrated air defense network like AEGIS fully operational-a pressing question is the effectiveness of a PLAN air defense network against supersonic AshMs such as the Brahmos if the PLAn is intending to operate in India's "backyard" although that may change in the next 20 years or so.
There is no question that carrier operation takes a long time to develop, but the hardware will be there in 10 years.

If you look at their recent development air defense is no longer a problem. All their latest ships have the necessary sensors to track and engage multiple supersonic missiles. Besides, having up to 40 flankers + several surveillance planes will be the main air defense for a fleet.

gf0012-aust

December 4th, 2007, 12:15 AM

What on earth did he mean by saying:
He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters.

Any opinions about that?

Considering the fact that they already have subs in the indian ocean its a moot point.

the best of their nuclear sub drivers learnt their craft from conventionals. If they're tooling around in any sub then they're getting benefit:

transoceanic experience
harvesting (they're not in the Indian ocean around the Andomans to check on the bio diversity near the naval base or air force facilities...)
time - extra hours = extra experience
distance - long distance training implies penetration training and at a minimum ISR roles.
Not the smartest thing to say IMO.

indian bull

December 4th, 2007, 06:11 AM

And now this :-

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20071204/nation.htm#6
Admiral Gorshkov Deal
Naval chief rules out price renegotiation
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, December 3
The first opposition to the reworking of the Admiral Gorshkov deal with Russia has come from the very force, which has been waiting to get the delivery of the much-needed aircraft carrier.

The Navy today asserted that there was no need to renegotiate the deal with Russia, which has been demanding more money from India for the refitment of the aircraft carrier.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta also said in the light of the demand made by Russia, there was a need to even ponder “where our defence relations are going with Moscow”.

“We have paid more than $400 million for the carrier and we own it now,” he added.

“I have told the government that the Navy’s line is that we should not talk on renegotiating the price of the carrier,” the Chief of Naval Staff said here while addressing the media ahead of Navy Day.

The Navy said the additional $1.2 billion Moscow had demanded violates the terms of the contract. The comments of the Naval Chief just days ahead of the arrival of a high-level Russian team assume significance and also possibly reflect the Indian mindset over the issue.

“The government should not get into price re-negotiations. If today they reopen the negotiations for Gorshkov, tomorrow all other projects will be reopened,” Admiral Mehta said. At the same time, he admitted there would be “complicated negotiations” on the Russian demand and on issues like the penalty clause that has been built into the contract in case delivery of the carrier is delayed. He added categorically that there would be no opting out of the deal for India. The ship, re-christened INS Vikramaditya, was originally to have been delivered in early 2008. This has now been pushed back to around 2010-11.

“There will be a lot of additions and subtractions and in the end, I personally don’t think we will be paying very much more, if at all anything extra.” Admiral Mehta agreed when asked whether the Gorshkov episode pointed to the need for India to reduce its dependence on Russia for military hardware.

“There was a different paradigm when we did business with the (erstwhile) Soviet Union. They were the sellers and we were the buyers. After the Soviet Union collapsed, the paradigm changed and both our nations have accepted this”, he said.

Today, there is a conscious feeling emerging that we should not put all our eggs in one basket,” the Navy chief maintained. After protracted negotiations, India signed a deal with Russia on January 20, 2004, to buy the Gorshkov, along with 12 single-seat MiG-29 fighters and four twin-seat MiG-29 trainers. Of the contracted amount, approximately $800 million was to be spent on upgrading and refitting the ship and $700 million on the 16 MiG-29 jets and six Kamov Ka-31 attack and reconnaissance anti-submarine helicopters.

Defence minister A.K. Antony had also raised the issue during his recent visit to Moscow, both at his meeting with his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov and at the seventh meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC) that the two ministers co-chaired.
well today gorshokov, tomorrow T-90s and so on, i think its the time to start getting rid of this old ally and become more self sufficient. The black mailing is increasing day by day and could have an serious implication in the time of need.

funtz

December 4th, 2007, 09:48 AM

Considering the fact that they already have subs in the indian ocean its a moot point.

Not the smartest thing to say IMO.
What is the difference between Indian ocean and Indian waters? :D

A person who is to heads a navy and has spent his life in the navy should sound more logical than that, I think the reporter might have twisted the words or put them out of context, other wise another case of hear no evil, see no evil.

IMO it was just posturing and bluffing- the IN doesn't yet operate a single SSN and would be very unhappy if Chinese were to operate in their backyard, in addition to Pakistanis! The correct phrase to use would have been: "it's not in the interests of India to face Chinese nuclear submarines in Indian waters".

I do not think that i have the knowledge to judge how anti submarine operations are carried out in a area where one has the capability of utilizing all of ones anti submarine assets, it seems that you on the other hand clearly have some, so care to explain the nature of anti submarine operations to me or point me towards some literature on it.

However the strategic partnerships that eveolve in the region will play a greater role, and China already has a clear edge in that aspect.

The Navy said the additional $1.2 billion Moscow had demanded violates the terms of the contract. The comments of the Naval Chief just days ahead of the arrival of a high-level Russian team assume significance and also possibly reflect the Indian mindset over the issue.

“The government should not get into price re-negotiations. If today they reopen the negotiations for Gorshkov, tomorrow all other projects will be reopened,” Admiral Mehta said. At the same time, he admitted there would be “complicated negotiations” on the Russian demand and on issues like the penalty clause that has been built into the contract in case delivery of the carrier is delayed. He added categorically that there would be no opting out of the deal for India. The ship, re-christened INS Vikramaditya, was originally to have been delivered in early 2008. This has now been pushed back to around 2010-11.

As its a government to government deal the gorshkov revamp project might have to be carried all the way.
And as a government to government deal, Russia will have a tough deision, the upcoming projects like the Project 17 A, long range maritime patrol aircrafts (and the possible gap fillers), second line of submarines, and MMRCA, it will be difficult to get on the nerves of the Ministry of Defence, however even they will not be willing to absorb the 1.2 billion dollars, more negotiations will take more time, this white elephant might come around by the time the indigenous project does.
So the project now is 1.2 billion dollars + the 400 mill. already paid = 1.6 billion dollars for a second hand carrier, wonder how long can it serve.

funtz

December 4th, 2007, 04:00 PM

my my, i owe an apology to some people for trusting in bharat rakshak website (if this report is true)

No dealings on aircrafts with Russia: Indian Navy

Vishal Thapar
CNN - IBN

Eastern Seaboard: From Indo US relations to Indo Russian ties, they are certainly catching a chill.

And for that matter, India is getting increasingly vocal about its unease with its principal defence supplier--Russia.

After the bitter spat over the acquisition of the Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, the Indian Navy is now going public with another sore issue--

the Klub cruise missile.

Inducted to be the main strike weapon of India's submarine arm between 2001 and 2006, this anti-ship cruise missile has never hit a target.

Seven of India's 10-kilo class submarines and the three Talwar class stealth frigates have been fitted with this weapon.

"There are problems that we have overcome but we are having dialogues,” says FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, Vice-Admiral PS Suthan

India is reported to have acquired over 200 Klubs at a cost of several thousand crores. And the missiles have never reached anywhere close to the stated range of 300 km.

The failure of the Klub cruise missiles has raised fresh doubts about the reliability of Russia as an arms supplier.

The naval top brass now concedes that it may have to reconsider the entire upgrade programme for the Kilo class submarines.

“We will look into other missiles,” says Vice-Admiral Puthan.

New options for India have made the reliability deficit with Russian equipment harder to digest.

The US has already made in-roads with the Vulcan Phalynx weapon system, installed on board the newly-acquired troop carrier ship, INS Jalashwa.

The Phalynx is the world's most proven close-in missile defence system, and it's the first lethal weapon system supplied by the US to India.

Also, it is the first time that a non-NATO country has been provided this weapon"

So the continuing problems with Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov's modernisation refit project has become the most visible symbol of the rancour creeping into the relationship.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/no-dealings-on-aircrafts-with-russia-indian-navy/53592-3.html

Great so the Navy has a major weapon on its ships and subs that is can not hit anything, and that does not even matter as it can not ever get near the target to hit it. Good luck in the war i guess.

This report if true can mean another huge bofors scandal type investigation.

- The headline has nothing to do with the story, the guy should take the journalism/mass communication cource again and from a proper college.
- How on planet earth will the guys who approved the purchace of the 200 missiles expain the way they got around fielding the missile without proving it.

They might as well put the bofors on the ships and subs. :mad:
Some strategic partner Russia is, with friends like these ....

harryriedl

December 4th, 2007, 05:28 PM

Firehorse

December 4th, 2007, 06:40 PM

IMO it was just posturing and bluffing- the IN doesn't yet operate a single SSN and would be very unhappy if Chinese were to operate in their backyard, in addition to Pakistanis! The correct phrase to use would have been: "it's not in the interests of India to face Chinese nuclear submarines in Indian waters".

I do not think that i have the knowledge to judge how anti submarine operations are carried out in a area where one has the capability of utilizing all of ones anti submarine assets, it seems that you on the other hand clearly have some, so care to explain the nature of anti submarine operations to me or point me towards some literature on it.
The less submarines are there to deal with, the better, no metter how advanced their ASW capability is. There is a heavy tanker traffic to/from the Gulf, and subs can use it to their advantage, besides also targeting it. An lastly, they are potent land attack & intelligence gathering tools.

Gripenator

December 4th, 2007, 07:44 PM

There is no question that carrier operation takes a long time to develop, but the hardware will be there in 10 years.

If you look at their recent development air defense is no longer a problem. All their latest ships have the necessary sensors to track and engage multiple supersonic missiles. Besides, having up to 40 flankers + several surveillance planes will be the main air defense for a fleet.

Ah...you mean the 'AEGIS like' integrated combat system onboard the 052Cs incorporating the Type 348 APAR. Wikipedia says it may be derived from the Thomson-CSF TAVITAC but I personally think it may be a further developement although I don't believe the PLAN has tested it against the latest supersonic seaskimmers, do you know anything about tests?

40+ Flankers? Are you referring to the Carrier plans outlined in the latest Xinhua/People's Daily reports? I suppose in the event they are true (they are exaggerating most of the time) then PLAN is aiming for a 70-75,000 tonne carrier on their first try-very ambitious given the lack of a shipborne AWACS although a navalized Y-8/Ka-31 AEW helo may suffice.

funtz

December 4th, 2007, 11:46 PM

A rather wide ranging question but where dose this leave India and its mix of Russian/European [mostly British equipment] and indigenous . Do they continue with the Talwars and the P17 and other Russian frigierts/destroyers . What an earth can they possibly do with Gorskhov, this is truly frighting how this has snowballed.

for the ships mounted with Klub can they replace it with Bramos or anything else[Exoset].

lastly what happens with the MMRCA presumably Russia is no longer considered the front runner anymore. Will India pay the increased price for the SU30MK1?

India is already paying the price increase for SU 30(indian versions).

the MMRCA yes the russians can kiss that and a lot of other contracts good buy, with the gorshkov deal they are messing with the politicians and the administrators in the ministry of defence, and that will come back to haunt them, more than Pi**ing of the Navy.

Klub will in all probability stay with the navy, 200 missiles and some installed launchers is eventually too much work.

The guy who made this report is not on the same planet. The klub with the Indian navy apparently does not have a 300km range.

Gorshkov deal will be carrier through, even if it ends up like Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy. What can it do, well i suppose men are always into my boat is bigger than yours competitions:onfloorl:

The only thing the navy can do to avoid russian junk is to tailor the requirements for the upcoming project P-17 A and the second line of submarines in such a way that the russians have no chance of winning the contract, i think they might have done that, unless the famous middlemen have had their way into the navy.

If only the military showed the same level of relaxed requirements for the indigenous projects.

What is the possible reason?
Payoffs (bribes)? Or a question of availability?

Some more brilliant defense journalists from India refusing to believe
that kitty hawk carrier is not coming into Indian Navy,

New Delhi, Dec. 4:
“Look, I am not buying it (the US carrier),” Mehta said indignantly in a bid to scotch the speculation. He was asked for his views on an article by a strategic affairs commentator who wrote that the induction of the Kitty Hawk would cement India-US military ties. “It’s too old,” Mehta added.

But there is reason to believe that the Indian establishment may not completely overrule a second look at the Kitty Hawk. The Pentagon is understood to have made discreet suggestions.

Indian naval air squadron pilots are also training in the US — even on the Kitty Hawk — for the “arrested landing” required on carrier decks. Ironically, the pilots are training for the MiG 29Ks that have been negotiated with Russia in a package deal for the Gorshkov

But the navy has already paid $500 million for the Gorshkov. “It is my ship,” Mehta asserted.

“The Indian Navy will add at least another 45 vessels in the next decade to maintain a 140-ship navy for operations. The focus is to reinforce sea control and sea denial capability that spans the Persian Gulf to the China Sea.

“The induction of the USS Kitty Hawk could be the trigger for the switchover from Russian-French to US platforms, first in the navy and later in the air force and the army.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071205/asp/nation/story_8631289.asp

I think the journalists wish for the Prime Minister to come on national telivision and tell them that the kitty hawk is not coming in the indian navy, that is just pathetic journalism.

tphuang

December 5th, 2007, 01:05 AM

my my, i owe an apology to some people for trusting in bharat rakshak website (if this report is true)

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/no-dealings-on-aircrafts-with-russia-indian-navy/53592-3.html

Great so the Navy has a major weapon on its ships and subs that is can not hit anything, and that does not even matter as it can not ever get near the target to hit it. Good luck in the war i guess.

This report if true can mean another huge bofors scandal type investigation.

- The headline has nothing to do with the story, the guy should take the journalism/mass communication cource again and from a proper college.
- How on planet earth will the guys who approved the purchace of the 200 missiles expain the way they got around fielding the missile without proving it.

They might as well put the bofors on the ships and subs. :mad:
Some strategic partner Russia is, with friends like these ....
well, like I said before, Klub have been quite the disappointment with PLA also. You never know what you are going to get with these new magical weapons the Russians advertise. If we look at the stuff their offering, only the weapons based on older and mature platforms are proving their worth like newer variants of flankers, Brahmos, newer variants of S-300 and upgraded shtil. What new product have they really developed in the recent years that is any good?

The guy who made this report is not on the same planet. The klub with the Indian navy apparently does not have a 300km range.

they got both the subsonic and supersonic one I think. So, 300 km range version should've been bought too.

Ah...you mean the 'AEGIS like' integrated combat system onboard the 052Cs incorporating the Type 348 APAR. Wikipedia says it may be derived from the Thomson-CSF TAVITAC but I personally think it may be a further developement although I don't believe the PLAN has tested it against the latest supersonic seaskimmers, do you know anything about tests?

really bad rumour that it's using TAVITAC. We definitely have reports of 1-on-1 encounter between 170 and 171 where they faced multiple sea-skimmers. But either way, the recent PLAN ships are all equipped with SR-64, which is there to track and engage supersonic sea-skimmers. I wrote 3 blogs on the air defense of 054A a few weeks ago, you can check here.
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/

40+ Flankers? Are you referring to the Carrier plans outlined in the latest Xinhua/People's Daily reports? I suppose in the event they are true (they are exaggerating most of the time) then PLAN is aiming for a 70-75,000 tonne carrier on their first try-very ambitious given the lack of a shipborne AWACS although a navalized Y-8/Ka-31 AEW helo may suffice.

the word I'm getting is that the first carrier will be over 60k tonne, probably have catapult, equip a maximum of 40 flankers, a couple of Y-7 AEW and a bunch of helos (I'm guessing Z-8 or helix). And then, they will follow that up with a second generation of carriers. One thing I do have to say is that they built the necessary escorts before the first carrier even got laid down.

funtz

December 7th, 2007, 05:11 AM

Navy chief pulled up for Russia remarks

Chief of Naval Staff Sureesh Mehta has been pulled up for what is being seen as out-of-turn remarks on India's defence relationship with Russia, which have the potential of impacting Indo-Russian ties.

Senior officials told the Hindustan Times on Wednesday that Defence Minister A.K. Antony was among those who pulled up Admiral Mehta for Monday's comments that there should be no more price negotiations relating to the purchase of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov from Russia. The Admiral went to the extent of saying that New Delhi should think where its relation with Russia is going and not put all its eggs in one basket. The officials, however, contested Mehta's views and said India had diversified its defence purchases.

According to them, the Gorshkov issue and other defence-related matters were recently discussed at the highest level between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Vladimir Putin.

In such a scenario, the Admiral's remarks have come as a major embarrassment to the government. "It's not as if the Navy has an independent view within the government. There is one view and that is the government's view," the officials said. The government is also upset that the Navy Chief should have referred to India's hush-hush nuclear submarine project in public. Admiral Mehta is believed to be the first Indian official to confirm the existence of the nuclear submarine project.

Contrary to Mehta’s very public advice on the Gorshkov issue, the government is getting set to send a high-level delegation to Russia to discuss the price issue.

:D
So the new defese doctrine is too ignore the problems faced, as they will eventually go away. Brilliant, if we incorporate this into the Education, Economy and public health we will achieve amazing results. (as we will deny any problems exist).

Perhaps the Admiral should also realize that we have no say in international scene, and a relationship is more than guns, planes and boats.

As for putting ones eggs in a sigle basket, these military types are beyond me, if they get too many suppliers they cry about the logistics nightmare, if they get a single source they cry about baskets and eggs.

As for the relationship troubles with Russia, its like saying any strategic realtionship with USA will be followed by a huge purchase of weapon systems from USA. Or may be relations with Russia are all about weapons.

What is the use of giving a public press anouncement about the issue?

All that does signify is that the telephone lines between the Ministry of Defence and the Military do not work.
Its not like more than a handfull of people outside the ministry and the military care about any of this.

funtz

December 9th, 2007, 12:45 AM

i remember a lecture on entrepreneurship, some one said something about opening the door when opportunity comes knocking.

After Gorshkov, frigates project faces delay
9 Dec 2007, 0049 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: Amid the ongoing acrimony over the huge delay and cost overrun in the refit of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, another big Indian naval project is the danger of running aground in Russia.

The Indian defence establishment is getting worried at reports emanating from Russia about problems dogging its Rs 5,514-crore (around $1.4-billion) project for construction of three more Talwar-class "stealth" frigates at Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad.
The feeling is that Russia is already setting the stage for demanding more money for the construction of the three frigates, apart from of course pushing back their delivery dates.

The Navy, in fact, is rushing an "overseeing team" to Yantar shipyard, which is not in such a good shape as far as infrastructure and financial health is concerned, in the next few days to keep a close watch on the project's progress, say sources.

While the keel for the first of these three 4,000-tonne guided-missile frigates was laid on July 27 at Yantar, the construction of the second one was formally launched only on November 27.

All this comes close after Russia's demand for a whopping $1.2 billion more to refurbish Gorshkov, after first settling to do it for $974 million in the overall $1.5-billion package deal signed in January 2004.

Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta has even gone public with his exasperation over the entire Gorshkov imbroglio, holding that it was perhaps time for India to rethink its long-standing defence ties with Russia. Though Russia is yet to officially communicate any demand for more money in the frigates' project, Russian officials are publicly holding that it will take "a minimum of $100 million more" to construct the three Indian warships at Yantar shipyard.

"A Russian media report has quoted Yantar shipyard director-general Nikolai Volov as saying that they would wish to increase the cost of the frigates' contract due to the falling US dollar exchange rate," said an official. The Rs 5,514-crore contract for the frigates, which are to be also armed with the 290-km BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, was signed in July 2006, with the delivery scheduled for 2011-2012.

The contract was signed despite India's bitter experience of huge delays in the delivery of the first three Talwar-class frigates, INS Talwar, INS Trishul and INS Tabar, inducted by the Navy in 2003-2004.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/After_Gorshkov_frigates_project_faces_delay/articleshow/2607605.cms

This might be the time that the ministry of defense sent a e mail to their Russian counterparts with a strong subject containing up your 'you know what'
Even the best of friends should operate on some sort of decency levels.

The Russians seem to hold some sort of card up theirs 'you know what'.
The Navy is still crying about the massive expansion and the Russians seem to be confident that delayed projects and expanding costs is the way to go. Either the Russian equipment is dirt cheap or they give the best offsets ;) if you catch my drift.

Sure people like to do things the easy laid back way in India but this is taking it too far, i hope stealth frigates is not a russian joke for 'you will never see them'.
:onfloorl:

funtz

December 12th, 2007, 11:34 PM

Meanwhile

Design delays put drag on India`s naval warship programme
Ajai Shukla / Mumbai December 05, 2007
But now all this could change with the dockyards going global. At Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai, the Chairman, Vice Admiral SKK Krishnan, told Business Standard that
a search has been launched for an international design partner with which MDL will set up an internationally registered private joint venture (JV), that will not just design warships but also function globally as a private design centre.

http://www.business-standard.com/economy/storypage.php?leftnm=3&subLeft=1&chklogin=N&autono=306542&tab=r

and

Hi-level French naval delegation meets Indian Navy Chief
10 December 2007
PTI
Keen to bounce back into the Indian armament suppliers market, a high-level French naval delegation led by its chief Admiral Alain Oudot de Dainville on Monday held wide ranging discussions with his Indian counterpart Admiral Sureesh Mehta.
His visit to New Delhi assumes significance in the wake of recent announcement by India that it planned to open the second line of submarine manufacturing in the country.

The French Company DCN International has already shored up a contract for supply of six Scorpene submarines to the navy and would be a keen bidder for India's plans to acquire six more subs.

The French admiral would be the first foreign naval chief to visit the navy's new base at Karwar. He will also visit the naval air base at Goa as well as Western Naval Fleet warships in Mumbai.

India and France, so far, have held five rounds of joint strategic exercises involving carriers, nuclear submarines, frigates, destroyers as well as naval fighters.

http://www.idrw.org/2007/12/10/hilevel_french_naval_delegation_meets_indian_navy_ chief.html

Any work which was on time and met the costs would have ensured that the MoD-India placed more contracts with Russian.
With the Club/Klub missiles going off to all directions it might be good bye Russia, all the situation needs are a allegations of a payoff scandal and it might be over for the Russians in a lot of upcoming deals.

I don't get it, why set another time consuming procurement process in motion for another line of subs, i mean someones gotta look after these machines, Scorpions can add some legs to their offensive systems or be more customized to make sure they match the requirements (i guess it must be difficult to do this with subs).

The only available explanation is:

With the purchase of the Scorpene SSK by the Indian Navy in October 2005, taking up the first production line under the Project 75 program, it has been suggested that the Amur SSK could be second under the aegis of the Project 76 program. The Indian Navy has reportedly planned for six to eight Amur Class boats as part of its 30-year sub-building program. With a confirmed order of six Scorpene SSKs plus a projected 6 - 8 Amur SSKs, the remaining 12 to 10 boats are planned to be based on an indigenous design and will marry the best of what the Scorpene and Amur SSKs have to offer.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Amur.html

could well be true, who knows this indigenous project might be too far down the line, about 2020-25 start i guess.
This Navy thing takes time

Firehorse

December 13th, 2007, 05:31 PM

India eyes nuclear submarine trials by 2009
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=11538

MUMBAI: India will be ready to test its first domestically built nuclear-powered submarine at sea by 2009, its navy chief said on Monday. A long-running secret project, India's nuclear-powered submarine is said to be a 5,000-tonne modified version of the Russian Charlie-II class vessel. Code-named "the Advanced Technology Vessel", the submarine will be capable of launching nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles and give India's navy an advantage over nuclear rival Pakistan. "Scientists have confirmed that they (will) have the project ready for trials by 2009," the Press Trust of India quoted Admiral Sureesh Mehta as saying. "We want the Russian nuclear submarine to enable our boys to train on how to operate nuclear reactors and platforms and other systems," he said.

I wonder if selling more SSNs to a non-signatory to NPT is permitted? India may want to buy 2nd-hand subs from Russia to catch up with China.

kams

December 13th, 2007, 07:42 PM

I wonder if selling more SSNs to a non-signatory to NPT is permitted? India may want to buy 2nd-hand subs from Russia to catch up with China.

IN is planning to 'Lease' Nuclear Subs, not buy.

tphuang

December 14th, 2007, 12:21 AM

I wonder if selling more SSNs to a non-signatory to NPT is permitted? India may want to buy 2nd-hand subs from Russia to catch up with China.

other than the fact that you can't buy SSNs, IN would have to lease a lot of nuclear subs to match up with China. I wonder how many Russian SSNs are still active right now. I think PLAN might have more in a few years if the Russian ones are getting mothballed at the current pace. Gary? Rick?

funtz

December 14th, 2007, 02:43 AM

Leasing Russian subs, i think Russia needs them as much as we do. I do not think leasing the older types will be what the IN wants.

The Russian sub will be used to develop the capability, as the indigenous ones are pushed into service by 2017-2020.

gf0012-aust

December 14th, 2007, 03:41 AM

I think PLAN might have more in a few years if the Russian ones are getting mothballed at the current pace. Gary? Rick?

I haven't seen any numbers for a while.

Sometime ago (12 months) RANSAC indicated that less than 20% of the Federations "active" penanted assets were sea worthy.

gf0012-aust

December 14th, 2007, 03:50 AM

Leasing Russian subs, i think Russia needs them as much as we do. I do not think leasing the older types will be what the IN wants.

I certainly wouldn't be leasing any russian subs after the way that you were treated on the first one.

IIRC it sank at moorings twice before it was delisted and then re-activated and cleaned up for lease.

kams

December 14th, 2007, 07:55 AM

kams

December 14th, 2007, 08:04 AM

funtz

December 14th, 2007, 12:39 PM

Please read up on which Sub IN is planning to lease.

Yups that is why the

I do not think leasing the older types will be what the IN wants.

was there.

2. SAM- Barak NG - 4 units (again cells/unit not mentioned)

3. Radar - MF-STAR

Any information on when the Barak NG project is expected to be completed?

funtz

December 14th, 2007, 12:44 PM

I certainly wouldn't be leasing any russian subs after the way that you were treated on the first one.

IIRC it sank at moorings twice before it was delisted and then re-activated and cleaned up for lease.

The Charlie-I Class? i was in primary school back then, no clues :unknown

kams

December 14th, 2007, 04:04 PM

Any information on when the Barak NG project is expected to be completed?

The third ship of P-15A is due for delivery in April 2012. So Barak NG should be up and running before that.

tphuang

December 15th, 2007, 12:23 PM

GF, Galharn, Conte and others,

Recently MDL released a tender for thrid ship ofP-15 A series. The armament fit was as follows

1. Anti-ship/surface missile - Brahmos - 2 units (how many cells/unit was not specified but may be 8)

2. SAM- Barak NG - 4 units (again cells/unit not mentioned)

3. Radar - MF-STAR

4. CIWS - AK 630 (4 )

5 Main Gun A-190
if each unit of Barak-NG are 8 cell like Barak, then that really is not enough for what is going to be the AAW ship of IN. Sorry, but 4 AK-640 and A-190 is not going to be that much help either.

funtz

December 15th, 2007, 02:39 PM

if each unit of Barak-NG are 8 cell like Barak, then that really is not enough for what is going to be the AAW ship of IN.

Not enough for what? How does one arrive at the required figure?

Sorry, but 4 AK-640 and A-190 is not going to be that much help either.

Help in what?

That will be what 32 missiles, decent load, though a extra dozen will always help, infact the more the better ah.

I guess they might go for 48, will just have to wait.

P 15 A series, exactly how many are planned? i could only find plans for 3, so is this the last in the series(i.e the one with the Barak NG)?

tphuang

December 15th, 2007, 03:09 PM

Not enough for what? How does one arrive at the required figure?

Help in what?

That will be what 32 missiles, decent load, though a extra dozen will always help, infact the more the better ah.

I guess they might go for 48, will just have to wait.

P 15 A series, exactly how many are planned? i could only find plans for 3, so is this the last in the series(i.e the one with the Barak NG)?
if you look at the AAW ships that are being built now, 48 seem to be the minimum that each is going for. I'd much rather sacrifice brahmos for more SAM units.

4 AK-630 and A-190 simply doesn't provide enough close in defense.

funtz

December 15th, 2007, 03:27 PM

Ya, will have to wait to see what the configuration is. 48 has been around for some time.

I guess instead of brochure based decisions the IN might use their heads to come up with that figure, they have to use the ship after all, no use going for a configuration because every one else is going for it.

As for the Brahmos, i am just happy to see it with out some klubs :D

4 AK-630 and A-190 simply doesn't provide enough close in defense.
no clues :unknown , taking about the numbers or the guns?

kams

December 15th, 2007, 07:40 PM

if each unit of Barak-NG are 8 cell like Barak, then that really is not enough for what is going to be the AAW ship of IN. Sorry, but 4 AK-640 and A-190 is not going to be that much help either.

Sorry for the delayed reply,

P-15A is not AAW ship, but multi role. I suspect P-17A series may be AAW, not sure though. It does have HUMSA hull mounted Sonar and Nagin towed sonar.

When the first Ship of P-15A was launched (INS Kolkata), a defence source put number of Barak NG to 48. That makes it 12 missiles/unit. But let's wait instead of speculation.

I would like to know more about Ak-630's as CIWS. You don't look too impressed by them, could you amplify your thoughts?

tphuang

December 16th, 2007, 02:43 AM

Sorry for the delayed reply,

P-15A is not AAW ship, but multi role. I suspect P-17A series may be AAW, not sure though. It does have HUMSA hull mounted Sonar and Nagin towed sonar.

When the first Ship of P-15A was launched (INS Kolkata), a defence source put number of Barak NG to 48. That makes it 12 missiles/unit. But let's wait instead of speculation.

I would like to know more about Ak-630's as CIWS. You don't look too impressed by them, could you amplify your thoughts?
it's generally believed in PLAN that 2 Kashtan or 2 Type 730 CIWS provides much better protection than 4 AK-630s. Of course, it also has something to do with the naval gun combat system on P-15A, which I obviously don't know, since I have no clue what kind of sensors IN use for air search and such.

Firehorse

December 20th, 2007, 08:04 PM

..Russia plans to lease two nuclear submarines to India. The statement was made during his visit to the Amurskiy Shipyard in the Russian Far East in late January 2002. The shipyard is constructing the first submarine India would lease -- the Nerpa, a Shchuka B-class [NATO name 'Akula II'] nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN). ..The second submarine, the Kuguar, is being constructed in the Far North at the Sevmash facility in Severodvinsk...The submarine lease may open the door to sales of nuclear submarines and highly enriched uranium fuel for the submarine's reactors. Although no country has ever sold a nuclear submarine, such sales are allowed under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) because the treaty does not restrict naval propulsion reactors. http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/week/020218.htm

Well, I guess I've found an answer to my question- SSNs can be sold, not just leased!

ranajee

December 23rd, 2007, 11:56 AM

New Delhi (AFP) Dec 20, 2007
An Indian court on Thursday ordered police to complete a probe into charges that a bribe was paid in a multi-billion dollar deal to buy Scorpene submarines from a French defence firm.

The Delhi High Court told the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) to complete its inquiry within three months and report back to a two-judge bench.
The judges also told the CBI to press criminal charges against "accused persons" if it could establish an offence had been committed in the 2.4 billion euro (three billion dollar) deal.
"In case CBI decides to close the case after the inquiry then it will have to satisfy the court that there was no evidence of kickbacks involved in the deal," judges T. S. Thakur and Veena Birbal said.
The order came a month after an Indian pressure group -- the Centre for Public Interest Litigation -- alleged New Delhi was shielding Indian middlemen who took commissions from French defence giant Thales, which owns Armaris, to clinch the deal.
Thales and the French government have denied the allegations.
Prashant Bhushan, who heads the pressure group, told the court that he doubted the intentions of the CBI, which had earlier this year abandoned an investigation into the bribery allegations.
"It has not done anything during the last 21 months and we fear it would submit a report without conducting a proper inquiry... We demand a full-fledged investigation," Bhushan said.
India in October last year signed contracts worth 2.4 billion euros with Armaris and European defence firm MBDA to buy six of the Franco-Spanish submarines.
The deal is a technology transfer agreement.
The Scorpenes will be assembled in India, but French naval group Direction des Compagnies Navales (DCN) will produce various key parts that require equipment unavailable at Indian shipyards.
India's main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party party has also alleged that four percent of the contract amount, estimated to be 100 million dollars, was paid to the brokers, one of whom is said to be close to the ruling Congress party.
Earlier this month, India said it was scrapping a 600-million-dollar deal to buy 197 military helicopters from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) after allegations of corruption in the bidding process.
India banned middlemen in military deals following charges of bribery in a multi-billion-dollar artillery deal in the 1980s with Swedish firm Bofors.
That scandal led to the downfall of the government of Congress prime minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1989.

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contedicavour

December 30th, 2007, 05:12 PM

Ouch if the allegations on either the helicopter deal or the Scorpene deal prove to be true that's quite a blow to the French defence industry. Probably most such deals include some very shady asides, but getting caught...:o ...

With the recent problems encountered in Morocco (with the F16 block 50s beating the Rafale) India is a key market where Dassault hopes to place Rafales (India does have 40 Mirage 2000s after all).

cheers

contedicavour

December 30th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Oh and by the way, by selling Scorpene to India DCN probably lost any chance of selling more SSKs to Pakistan (which, surprise surprise, is now turning to U214). So if the deal with India proves to have involved corruption this is a really BIG blow...

cheers

rabirizvi

December 31st, 2007, 05:30 AM

True but it will be a big set back to IN aswell.Their procurement plans will get delayed. if the corruption case is proved, can someone tell me if india will be able to renogiate the deal with DCN, or would they be required to refloat the tender for the submarine?

funtz

December 31st, 2007, 09:47 AM

Dunno if scrapping the sub being built and the ones to follow will be economical, must have taken some money and effort to get the line operational.

legal procedure will take a long-long time, at this stage of the contract it will be carried through, and if the age old bofors scam is anything to go by, the contract will be carried out long before the verdict of the Delhi High Court comes.

People go with the lesser of two evils. ;)

A famous example is the Barak weapon system deal, the deal is being investigated by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI).

Dubious deal
V. VENKATESAN
in New Delhi

The CBI files a case on the allegations of corruption in the Barak missile system deal with Israel in 2000.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2321/stories/20061103001804100.htm

This will really hurt the French when the contract for second line of submarines comes into being, and the associated defense firms might get into trouble. Similar stuff keeps on coming up in other Indian industrial sectors (payoffs, bribes etc.) especially the ones involving government organizations (and there are a lot of them).

It is very important that such payoffs/bribes are controlled through harsh steps, these guys walk away with a lot of money that can be utilized well, i hope that if the Court finds that the defense firms involved are found guilty, the whole deal is scrapped and all the money deposited back with the government, along with a 50 year ban on defense deals with the firms involved.

I think the current ministry of defense is taking active steps to get some transparency into the picture, hope that works out with the deal for 126 combat fighter aircrafts.

What is the global scene? i guess some payoffs/bribes must take place in defense deals, any famous ones?

Hope the people here have a nice new year party, and a wonderful new year, man i wish this was on the weekend, well cant change the time i guess.

funtz

January 9th, 2008, 02:36 PM

India, Russia yet to reach 'breakthrough on Gorshkov'
9 Jan 2008, 1507 hrs IST,PTI

EW DELHI: India and Russia are yet to achieve a breakthrough on resolving the Gorshkov deal, which has been in a deadlock over pricing.

"There has been no major breakthrough, though discussions are on," Defence Minister A K Antony said on the sidelines of a function to launch the Golden Jubilee celebrations of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

India is supposed to get the delivery of the aircraft carrier next year, but the Russians told New Delhi that they cannot stick to the time schedule due to heavy cost overruns on the warship's upgrading.

In the new terms, Moscow is demanding USD 1.5 billion more for carrying out complex cabling work on the warship to integrate its command and control stations. Under the original deal concluded in 2004, India was to pay USD 1.2 billion for complete retrofitting of the carrier.

Antony said that negotiation teams from both countries had held a number of round of talks, but no breakthrough had been achieved yet. His remarks assume significance in the backdrop of an expected visit by a Russian delegation later this month here on the issue.

Though uncertainty over the delivery of the carrier continues, Russia is expected to stick to schedule on supplying the first batch of Mig-29K, the warship's main fighters by June next year.

The Defence Minister said that Malaysia had evinced interest in acquiring the surface to air Akash missiles.

"Malaysians got to hear about the 100 per cent successful trials and broached the subject of its acquisition during the talks," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_Russia_yet_to_reach_breakthrough_on_Groshkov/articleshow/2686282.cms

This is interesting, 1.5 billion USD extra, might as well stick to the old name and keep it in the russian navy the Mig-29K is already there to fly around in russian colours. Not much use having them on the ground.