Pakistan needs to advance in making fighters

[kilo_4que]

Although we are put in this dilema of purchasing high tech fighters. We need to also take into consideration that manufacturing our own fighters is the key to success. Although the JF-17 was made in a joint venture between china and pakistan, we should now press ahead and do things slightly more independantly with of course SOME help from china and our other humble allies.

We tend to think negative and think as though it is impossible, but there are no restrictions stopping us from doing so. We are allowed at will to make our own fighters.

Your thoughts

[ullu]

If we are going to advance in making fighters and we really should We would need this:

- Better economy

- University based Research < more young minds working = much faster inventions and fixes to potential problems!)

- Make ALL parts at home(if not all maybe most? some?)

- Contacts and diplomacy so we can sell the planes to improve the first two I mentioned.

[Red aRRow]

I guess ullu said it all :)

[ovais]

:cop I do believe that the expenses that PAF has on the side, are just too great. The overheads that the PAF is maintaining are a serious drain on its resources. However, the JF-17 venture IS commendable, because, if all the reports by national and international media is true, then this just might be PAF's edge over all the rest.

But, if more investment is to be made into the fighter aircraft industry, the overheads of PAF will have to be cut down considerably.

[Mehfooz]

Hi n salam ..I think there's a good chance for Pakistan to advance in fighter production.Because China is producing WS10A jet engines and there's a very good chance that Pakistan would get its techs and licence for production from China.And I think its a good prospect and this engine would be used in later J10's.After getting licence and techs of production there's a chance of indegenious fighter aircraft ..as Pakistan has also setup an Intitute of avionic and aerospace in ISLAMABAD..and Aeronatical research centre at kamra along with the expansion of aircraft manufacturing fatory for jf 17 and would have some manufaturing experience from jf17 production and also tec experience from same.Pakistan just need to work out good avionics and radars in which pakistan lacs and is far more behind .So lets hope for the best..

[morko44]

Hi there, i am glad a muslim country such pakistan & iran at the end pursue the capability to fully manufactured advanced weaponry & munitions. :D: Just look at the pathetic Indonesia. Indonesian AIr Force, TNI-AU, only poses fewer than 4 F-16A in airworthy conditions, and perhaps only 3 of Hawk 100/200 which is airworty :(. TNI-AU now procured 4 Su-27/Su-30MK but what made this procurement only serves as a laughable stuff is, those flankers isn't equipped with any weapons, only their guns :mad. The Indos Gov have going nuts. They not even try to wiring the Sukhois with AIM9 & AIM7 already had in Indos
inventory. :mad How suppose TNI-AU able to defend the Indonesia airspace ?

A quick blow by any aggressor in the region, say sending 40 fighters to enter Indonesian airspace, is enough to knock out TNI-AU & all Indonesian teritorry would be succumbed gradualy ;) Don't worry regarding Indos government, they likely to lick any agressor asses happily.

[SABRE]

PPl to make an advanced jet fighter u need to go into a mass R&D process. & the R&D process costs more than the actual thing (in this case a n advanced jet) u r trying to achieve. In short run it is big loss. N long run will come way too long later.

[gf0012-aust]

A quick blow by any aggressor in the region, say sending 40 fighters to enter Indonesian airspace, is enough to knock out TNI-AU & all Indonesian teritorry would be succumbed gradualy ;) Don't worry regarding Indos government, they likely to lick any agressor asses happily.

I think you just broke the record for the fastest self contradicting post on this forum.

[P.A.F]

well the JF-17 is the start. within 15-40 years pakistan should be on the way to making leathal weapons in all areas.

[SABRE]

Pakistan must consider a joint venture with France (Dessault)...try n make some thin like or close to or better than Mirage2000.
May be JF-Mirage-2000 mulitrole, one seater,sprint fighter jet with nuke carrying capabilities. Also bring in China to this venture.

[gf0012-aust]

Also bring in China to this venture.

Having dealt with the French on a number of recent projects, I can tell you that this will not happen.

[muslim282]

One thing for sure l think we can all agree on is that pakistan has to go down the indiginous route if we are meant to keep up with other nations.
We can,t let numerous embargoes affect us each time.
lnitially this may be expensive but in years to come it will be economically beneficial.
l definatley agree with research projects being passed to universities and academic institutions. This will allow for a whole new generation of skills, inteligence and innovators.
New purchases of weapons should be tied down to licence production and technology transfer contracts "where possible".
COPYING wether licensed on unlicensed should be actively pursued.

The JF17 is only a stepping stone to many great things. Inshallah.+

[umair]

Also bring in China to this venture.

Having dealt with the French on a number of recent projects, I can tell you that this will not happen.

Well I think I've mentioned it here somewhere before, that there was a proposal floated for a joint Pak French(china excluded) development of a Mirage2K variant called the Delta Falcon.It was supposed to be better than the original 2K but inferior to the 2K5 models.But it did not go through.

[Londo Molari]

From what some knowledgeable technical people in the PAF have told me, its not easy to make an aircraft. Pakistan could make the airframe, no problem. The problem is DESIGNING an airframe which will be aerodynamically useful requires experience/expertise which we don't have (I guess we COULD simply copy existing designs :p) and the avionics side of things also involve technologies which we simply do not have experience in. What we CAN do right now is integrate existing advanced technologies... and slowly we are building our own expertise... but definitely we don't have the same type of resources to put into military R&D that say, US, China or Europe might have, which means they are proceeding at a faster rate than us... so even catching up is not easy. You'd need $$ for that...

[VICTORA1]

Gentlemen,
Dollars is not the only thing needed for high tech research. Pakistanis are way behind in quality designers, engineers, manufacturers----they basically have no fundamentals of starting something very high tech and an expensive item such as a world class fighter jet, to compete and dominate the indian SU30, from the scratch. Also for a country like pakistan, small in size, poor in economy, step child of the world, it is not feasible to do something like that.

They have an oppurtunity of joint ventures with china and purchase options from france for almost any item on their production sheet---so investing on such a large scale would be of no use.

Now if iran, saudi arabia and pakistan may start up a joint venture----that would be a tremendous oppurtunity but then still----you would look into buying an existing design and modifying it to your needs.

[Pathfinder-X]

Building a basis for defence R & D takes years of hardwork and constant pump of cash. If you do not have the neccessary infastructure in place, such as wind tunnels, chances are you're probably going to end up with something unsuccessful. Improvement in R&D cannot be made overnight and Pakistan is probably not going to make very much advance in aviation in the next decade.

Of course there is always the approach China is taking right now, buy and copy then onto domestic production. This method does have its downside though, you'll always be one step behind and nations will be less enthusiastic about selling you any systems. But it is by far the cheapest and fastest method.

[gf0012-aust]

Of course there is always the approach China is taking right now, buy and copy then onto domestic production. This method does have its downside though, you'll always be one step behind and nations will be less enthusiastic about selling you any systems. But it is by far the cheapest and fastest method.

Case in point being that the German govt has elected to maintain the arms embargo on China - and they voted against Schroeders wishes. More to the point, if Germany says no, then the EU will follow and that also means that France will not move against Germany - as she needs Germany more than any other EU member.

[SABRE]

Now if iran, saudi arabia and pakistan may start up a joint venture----that would be a tremendous oppurtunity but then still----you would look into buying an existing design and modifying it to your needs.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan & CHINA. U cant take out China, with out it non of the 3 r capable of makin a good fighter. Saudis can only take care of the finance nothing else. It would be China, Pakistan & Iran non technincal side. But inclusion of Iran may close doors to possible US components. But tht wnt matter would it.

[P.A.F]

i think pakistan China and Turkey should do a joint venture.

[gf0012-aust]

i think pakistan China and Turkey should do a joint venture.

I doubt that Turkey would be interested, they are far more committed to getting advanced weapons tech from the US, UK and Germany.

[P.A.F]

if not turkey then i can't see an advance third party to finish of the group. :( . maybe it should just be left to china and pakistan.

[Londo Molari]

Turkey isn't an "Advanced third party". They have put together kits of F-16s, yes, but they have no expertise in making aircraft at all. They do however have the cash. But why would they get in on this, when they have access to modern jets.

China ALONE has the resources, and it is doing it. It does not need Pakistan or Iran. We can request China for whatever China makes, and chances are we'll get it. So really, there is no need to attempt to design and manufacture our own modern fighters, and waste precious $$ on something uncertain.

Given our current financial and technical situation, and our relationship with China, the best course of action is to develop our fighter MAINTENANCE and SUBSYSTEM industries, so we can maintain our fighters, and modify/tweak them as we see fit. Which is also exactly what we ARE doing today. We have fighter rebuild factories, we have our own weapons/avionics research labs, etc... with the JF-17, we'll be even more self-reliant on maintaining our fighters.

[Pathfinder-X]

i think pakistan China and Turkey should do a joint venture.

What kind of joint venture do you have in mind exactly? Aircrafts? MBTs? Naval systems? In all three fields China is far ahead of Pakistan and Turkey. Just what can they contribute to a joint venture except money? And Chinese has plenty of cash considering their economy is bigger than the two nations combined.

And general Chinese public and government ain't exactly thrilled with Turkey due to the fact that Turkish government allows East Turkestan movement to operation in their country. For those of you who doesn't know what East Turkestan movement is, see the link below

http://www.uygur.org/

I'm not implying that future cooperations between China and Turkey isn't possible, but simply not at this stage.

[SABRE]

Ok than no joint ventures. Pakistan does it alon with Chinese assistance. No matter where they get design from it should be Pakistan's. They should give it to some big internation aironotical company n get the copy rights. China can help in building. Intire finance should be of Pakistan.
Probably get dessault to make the design, other European countries for equipments.

[ashoaib]

Turkish defence minister had said few weeks ago that Pakistan and Turky should cooperate with each other in defence equipment and research.

[Mehfooz]

I think If Pakistan is to make an advance fighter plane ,it can not do it on its own.But Pakistan can,I mean there's a chance that it can be done by joint venture .Pakistan neither have the tech and facilities needed to make a fighter plane nor does it have the finance to launch such a project.But on the other hand these two aspects can be achieved by going on a joint venture involving saudia and china.There has to be a major role of these two countries in this joint venture such as the saudis can provide finance not all but enough to take off burden and the role of china will be to provide techs and facilities and Pakistan shuold get in by a little bit of experience that they have..not much but enough and pakistan can also invest some finance also

But the reality is such a thing is not possible withoud hardwork and full devotion to the job and either is not because it is just a dream yet .It'll take a lot of time and not be done overnoght.

So my conclusion is that such a venture is possibe but with pakistan it's not even possible because of the fact that pakistan needs to fulfill PAF's reqiurement by getting advance fighters and Pakistan does not have enough finance to get the best considering this a side project would be a big loss .The fact is Pakistan is a poor state begging for advance fighter and to think of self reliance in making fighter plane its like asking for the world to turn side.

[ashoaib]

Mehfooz you have combined the posts of diffrent guys in your post. All these comments are already posted nothing new in it.
Pakistan is already trying to make anything which it can with the and without the help of others, specially China. In the future we will see the production line of J-10 in Pakistan along with JF-17. May be after 2015 or later.

[Mehfooz]

ashoaib ANd so did u that same old story, old topic jf-17..now forget it ,it'll be in paf without doubt lookahead and as far as my reply ...that's my thoughts.never mind

[P.A.F]

according to my understanding pakistan doen't need any joint ventures in the field of tanks of anything to do with army (although a multirole helicoptor wouldn't be a bad idea). in the navy they have made those missile boats and subs so thay know pretty much about naval stuff. they need to concentrate on fighter jets as not many countries seem intrested in giving us. however we can not do it alown. China is a MUST for help and maybe saudi for the funds.

[lalith prasad]

making a missile boat or submarine is completely different from making a capital warship.the submarine i think is of french design. however i would like to know what is the maximum shipbuilding capacity of pakistan's shipyards 9that is the maximum size of ships that they can make (naval or civil) does any one have ant information on this. can they make bulk carriers .(just asking). :?: :?: :?:

[ashoaib]

ashoaib ANd so did u that same old story, old topic jf-17..now forget it ,it'll be in paf without doubt lookahead and as far as my reply ...that's my thoughts.never mind
The same old story of JF-17 is one of the most hot topic here. You can check the replies in JF-17 thread.

[ashoaib]

according to my understanding pakistan doen't need any joint ventures in the field of tanks of anything to do with army (although a multirole helicoptor wouldn't be a bad idea).

Yeah a Multirole helicoptor is a good idea and must have

[Mehfooz]

Pllzz ppl this not a thread abt submarines and helicopters ..if u ppl want to talk abt submarines go to navy sectiondon't post irrelavent replies in this thread

Admin, lets leave the Admin decisions up to the Mods and Webbie... :roll

[suleman]

Everyone now back to the original topic.No irrelevent posts.

[muslim282]

It will be a slow process but l think Pakistan is heading in the right direction in terms of making their own equipment albeit that it may have been designed by others.
l do believe a statement made by Ashoaib is fairly true ie: that eventually the ENTIRE JF17 will be manufactured in Pakistan simply due to the fact that this plane is more tailored to pakistans needs than china,s. Licensed manufacture of the J10 is also a very strong possibility.
Pakistan is already evaluating its current manufacturing resources, upgrading, aswell as building newer facilities to be able to accomodate these future plans and prepare future technicians and personnel.
Having spoken to friends that were involved in the ideas2004 and also in projects around pakistan, the future looks good.
The only downside being the numerous embargoes and hurdles placed before us by a few nations, otherwise we would be really pushing things alot faster.
Step forward Ukraine, China, South-Africa and Italy who are all involved in serious projects in pakistan regarding the development of making fighters or associated equipment and weapons.
We may not be producing F22,s and the JSF but we are heading in the right direction, embargoes or no embargoes.

[cheenamalai]

marko44<If Indonesia is attacked by some non-muslim country, Pakistan got your back! ;)

:pak

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