Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[Mukesh Patel]

US? NAH!

Someone from EU? I don't know!

Pakistan's airforce is outdated and at a very dangerous point! Pakistan needs to replace its ACs as soon as possible. India is getting more mirages, more latest russian planes.

What are pakistanis waiting on? Fc1? super7? J10? Is that all left for them? Any chance of getting that eurofighter? :D

[ullu]

Why are you worried so much about pakistan? You should be happy our airforce is not in good condition! But pakistan still can give india a very hard fight! :)

Eurofighter sounds fine to me!

[Bharat_R]

I like your patriotism but that won't work, Pakistan NEED to modernize its Air Force, even though I am not Pakistan. My advice is Pakistan should focus on the FC-1, get the F-16s upgraded indegenous, the only prob is most Arab nation operating F-16s are pathetic and have no indegenous base. So I say Pakistan must get the know-hows from Malaysia or UAE. Other then that Pakistan should get the J-10s if it succeeds. The only problem is the money, but if Pakistan had FC-1, J-10, and F-16 it would be able to defend itself, but will still lose a large chunk of its airforce to India.

[muaest]

Pakistan do not need new fighter jets.I will rather say pay attention to FC-1 and try to get j-10 with TOT or involve in R&D of someother chineese project.

Try to get good SAM system.We are a defensive force we do not need to go for offensive..We need deterence, and we already have in the form of nukes.We need to build our economy.And try to grow the trend of R&D in our on country. :idea:

[kilo_4que]

Listen my friend Bharat, u live in UK and u speak so lame. One of the highest ranking Royal Army generals put his thoughts towards a face off between the two, and do u know what he said. He said, India may have a 3:1 or now talking 2:1 size ratio, Pakistan does posses more quality. And once I find the report, I shall post it. So when it does come to face off, I think its the Indian air force that would lose more than a large chunk to Pakistan.

Furthermore, how can pakistan upgrade the F-16s indegenously, it just doesnt make sence, and then again, if they did try upgrading them by themselves, it could lead to failure in the original fighter. As they say, always get a genuine job done.

[mikoyan]

kilo .......an unnamed source always lacks crebility even if he is one of the top Brit generals.

Next in the numbers game, even if the PAf knocks out more aircraft than the IAF manages, it will still face the fact that it has a much smaller percentage of aircraft left to fly.

For eg, in a 15 day war, IAF @600 fighters & PAF@300 fighters
Assume PAF loses 50 ac & knocks out 100 IAf aircraft, the IAF still has 500 aircraft vs PAF's 250.

[kilo_4que]

Mikoyan, a gud point u have arrised however, u have to remeber and also I shall say admit the fact that Pakistan does posses more quality and eagerness to fight than the indians.

I mean, India doesnt have an equivalent number of senior fighter pilots to fly the likes of the more advance fighters. Likewise, what is the point in them having the fighters. It is a psychological fight as well as physical.

[Dezertmirage]

Rumors have been that pakistan plans to acquire mirage 2000 in a deal paid for by the UAE .. or we pass on our own mirage 2000 to the pakistanis

DM

[WebMaster]

HUH? :confused

[NARC]

Well, dunno bout u guys but i would put my money on France or China, where Paks relations are good.

I was wondering if any other Arabs would do a deal with Paks for parts or even whole planes for F-16s, but this seems highly unlikely as the Arabs are happy purchasing, or maybe its just US pressure.

Paks did purchase Rose mirages from Australia, but i doubt if the aussies wanna sell any more planes to paks, especially after they were hit by terrorists, these pple are fragile! ;)

Can any1 of u guys clarify on why Ukrain helped Paks on Al-Khalid, but we are hearing nothing about the su-27s Ukrain makes. ??

[F-22_Rapture]

Well NARC, Ukrain helps Pakistan as they are good allies. Furthermore, Ukrain was once a member of the soviet union and after the distruction of the soviet union, Ukrain was seperated and was also know as the base of soviet arms. Likewise due to the predomiante negative relations between pak-russia and ukrain-russia, the countries have formed firm bonds. Also u have to remember, the al-khalid is a highly regarded tank with advance technologies. Likewise, if Ukrain helps pakistan, they could share these extreme machines in their own favour too.

Regarding the Su-27s. Ukrain offered pakistan two packages last year. One consisting of part mig-29s and Su-27s or a full batch of Su-27s. Both packages have been rumoured to have consisted of around 45 planes each. However, Pakistan didnt go ahead with the deals even though they were getting the planes at extremely low prices. Reason being, they thought that china-pak ties may losen as China did previously promise pakistan that they would provide pakistan with squadrons of the chinese versions of the Su-27s. Likewise, Pakistan stayed nutral.

Therefore currently, Pakistan is coping with the same old but very well conditioned fighters.

[NARC]

Ummm, very intresting, so is china going to supply paks with su-27, and if they do dont they need some sort of "permission" from the russians.

Do we know the exact price paks would recieve su-27 from ukrain in comparison to china if at all...

[anwarma]

China cannot sell SU-27 to Pakistan, the Russian license manufacture contract specifically disallows sale to any third country by China .

Check the link stated below, open the link and then check the PART 3.

http://avia.russian.ee/air/articles/flanker/index.html

Part 3 of the link discussed the Russian terms for the license manufacturer of SU-27 and SU-30MKI with China and India. China simply cannot sell any part of the SU-27 and Su-30MKK to any 3rd country without Russian Government approval.

[xtech]

Pakistan needs to buy the SU-27's that Ukraine was offering them. They were an absolute steal at only $8 million a piece. I can't believe the idiocy of some of the people making the decisions about military purchases. They continue to give most of the money to the Army which is already pretty well off. And after the Gulf War 2 and Afghanistan they must see the power of a good air force. MY GOD, 8 MILLION FOR SOME FLANKERS AND WE HAVENT PURCHASED THEM? It's crazy.

[deinesh]

IMO Pak should focus on High altitude SAM's. Pak may not be able to get planes at the moment but Hihg Altitude SAM's can partially offset this handicap.

[Nucleas]

Don't forget Musharraf is from Army...so he will make sure that Army gets all the apples and oranges no matter how badly it affects PN and PAF... the results are already showing.. :smokingc:

[deinesh]

Don't forget Musharraf is from Army...so he will make sure that Army gets all the apples and oranges no matter how badly it affects PN and PAF... the results are already showing.. :smokingc: :D

[ullu]

Don't forget Musharraf is from Army...so he will make sure that Army gets all the apples and oranges no matter how badly it affects PN and PAF... the results are already showing.. :smokingc:

And those results are??? :roll

[deinesh]

And those results are??? The results are like this. Pakistan has state of the art planes like the Al-Khalid :D ,TU_80UD :D etc etc etc :P

[Oqaab]

France and China are the only countries which can sell aircrafts to Pakistan. And Musharraf, being from Army, negotiated Mirage 2000-5 deal with france for PAF.

[Oqaab]

According to some reports, India has grounded all Su-30MKI coz its engines didnt perform well but Indian officials are saying that IAF hasnt grounded any of its Sukhoi jet.

If Su-30MKI are still serving for IAF, which aircraft do u ppl think PAF should opt for.

Rafale Cost 50 million
Gripen Cost 35 million
Typhoon Cost ~80 million
J-10 Cost 25 million (still unconfirmed)
Mirage 2000-5 Cost 45 million
F-16s Cost 26.9 million (block 60)

What do u think ????
Need sencible replies plzzz.
Thanx

[ullu]

Well, lets see....

Rafale Cost 50 million < HELL NO! >
Gripen Cost 35 million < Good plane but expensive... >
Typhoon Cost ~80 million <Nice choice but very expensive, no >
J-10 Cost 25 million (still unconfirmed) <This is an OKAY choice but depends on if we get it... chinese are very cautious and secrative about it>
Mirage 2000-5 Cost 45 million < :hitwall I don't know I guess this is it when we have no other choice >
F-16s Cost 26.9 million (block 60) < Uncle wouldn't give it to us, bad bad bad uncle! >

[Winter]

Pakistan was going to buy some F-16s a year or two ago but it was blocked by sanctions or something....Meanwhile the new U.S. $3 billion aid grant to Pakistan has led to half a dozen C-130s hasn't it?...

[Oqaab]

About options.

Rafale Cost 50 million

Rafale is a low-cost stealth aircraft which was made when french air force rejected Typhoon coz of its heavy weight. France might sell this aircraft at a cost of more then 75 million/unit coz at the same time, Typhoon will be available in the market.

Gripen Cost 35 million

Sweden claims gripen is more advanced then the F-16s block 60. Its range is the weak point. But a good BVR attack capability and a low cost aircraft. Its future program includes a more powerful engine and some other modifications. A good option for PAF.

Typhoon Cost ~80 million

A good aircraft with stealth capability, but Typhoon may not get much sales coz of Rafale. Its engines gives 40,000 lbs of thrust and moveable canards are installed to make the aircraft more manouvrable. PAF is taking interest in this aircraft but I m sure this aircraft will not be purchased due to problem of funds.

J-10 Cost 25 million (still unconfirmed)

The price of this aircraft is expected to be around 25 million but Chinese media is still silent about it. J-10, armed with python 4 and SD-10 missiles will prove to be the backbone of PLAAF. If its price is between 25-30 million/unit, then it is the best option for PAF but it will not be available for next 3-4 years.

Mirage 2000-5 Cost 45 million

Keeping in view its capabilities, it is not a good option for PAF coz PAF is giving 50 million for each mirage 2000-5. Although the aircraft is available to PAF, but PAF hasnt placed order yet due to lack of funds. But there isnt any aircraft available to PAF now, except Mirage 2000-5. According to some rumours, PAF will get a more capable variant of Mirage 2000-5 for which it is giving 50 million. So, for the time being, PAF should stick with these aircrafts.

F-16s Cost 26.9 million (block 60)

A good option for PAF but PAF will not be able to aquire these due to political situations and nuclear capability. But USAF is currently operating ~2000 F-16s and there are some chances of getting used F-16s when USAF will ber replacing these with 2500 JSFs.

[adnan]

india wallo remember one thing that dont see the quantity of air craft in
paf u see just how they have shaheen sift gavan .we enugh for u

[Red aRRow]

Adnan can you please translate your post into some human language???!!!! :D :D :D :D

[ullu]

I think adnan was in hurry when he wrote that. :P

[kem eng]

i agree, pakistan should ask china and france for jet fighters. i think they should go for the rafeale or the j-10

[razhas]

Assalam o alaekum everybody

I am a new comer to this forum....or more precisely even to any of the defencetalk forums .............

I have read this sort of discussion, i.e. regarding the US or some other “big gun(dd)” supplying or approving this kind of military hardware or of that kind to India or to Pakistan or etc etc , many a times both at your forums or at pakistanidefence forums...........

many of my brothers really seem pretty worried at what the US or some other “big gun(dd)” might do or might not do..........well neither the US nor the touts backed by the US are gods.......... and al -hamdolillah we as muslims do not believe in any such "gods'............


as far as the military strategy and tactic is concerned ............ in the absence of an early warning system, our forces may look vulnerable...... but then there are means and ways to convert your weaknesses into strengths................. and above all making best use of your own strong points........that’s what makes good soldiers the best........

and the best virtue of it all is the desire for shahadat and no fear of death of kith and kin or even own........ no matter "they" have advanced planes with greater BVR capability and operational range and reach........... no matter they have planes in greater numbers...... no matter they have awacs................ just like what Shamael has suggested…….e.g. if two or four or six or ten of our ghazis in the formation attain the status of shaheeds while providing cover for the third or fifth or seventh or eleventh shaheen ghazi who strikes right in the heart of the enemy .........and no matter after doing so also attains shahdat........... then the only thing the enemy will remember next time he tries to go up in the air, is that he will not be able to return to his base no matter how advanced or "stealthy" a plane he is flying.......... and if anybody really knows anything about fighting a war, then a jittery soldier is the last thing that an armed force would like to have in its ranks..........


and i would also like to register my utter disgust regarding the views of some .......... these views portray china as a very low profile backward and technologically poor country from whose military hardware and technology Pakistan should distance itself or should not regard as first class...........

first of all if you say or even think about your benefactor in such a manner then not only will you disgrace yourself as an ungrateful and uncivilized nation , but will also invite ALLAH's wrath upon yourself, as he does not like the ppl who would not respect and regard their benefactors.........

and only if such ppl have been looking at the history of china in the distant and recent past (particularly in the 20th century as it is relatively well documented) then it will become as clear as it could be that china has always been a center of cultural as well as technological prowess and also a nation with dignified stance………………and at times despite having relatively inferior or no matching technology or ability, have very well defended itself and held its head high…………………..no wonder we do not pay much attention to our own religion………according to a very famous hadeeth demonstrating the importance of “Ilm”, china is mentioned as a destination for the seekers of “Ilm” …………….and as we all know if it were to be the “ Ilm ad Deen” or knowledge of the religion then there was no Islam in China on the advent of ISalm in Arabia………………..


So my dear friends and brothers…………………….. hold your heads high in front of the foe and bowed in front of the God ALMIGHTY ALLAH subhan wa taalaa and just keep your faith only and only in him and be nice and loving to the benefactors he has provided us with………….


.....ghairat baree hai cheez jahaan e tag o dau mein.................... (iqbal (R.A))


....sher kee aik din kee zindagee geedar kee sau sala zindagee say behtar hai......(tipu sultan (R.A))


.....Down with the USA ...the dajjal of our times...........

[jastreb]

No coment ! :(

[Oqaab]

Another option is that we should upgrade our JF-17s to J-10 standards. But this will take a lot of time and money.

[ullu]

Pakistan isn't dreaming about becoming world power so it needs minimal deterance to keep regional bullies like india in check. Jf-17 and maybe J-10 in the future would do the job... if pak can get eurofighter or some western jet-it would only help.

[wzhtg]

Mirage 2000-5

Quite a good choice. Has about same capabilities as F-16. French also more willing to sell.

Gripen

Great swedish product. Can match F-16. Nice price too would be a good choic.

J-10

I say the best in terms of cost. Problem, **** might only get it after a few years as china needs to produce the planes for itself first.


Rank
1.Gripen
2.J-10
3.Mirage


Rafael and eurofighter way too expensive for pakistan.

[Winter]

I agree with wzhtg....Possible OPFOR India operates some Mirages don't they?

[Oqaab]

Gripen is the least capable 4th generation fighter if we compare it with latest 4th generation fighters. Also, sweden might have problems in selling this aircraft to Pakistan coz Gripen uses many US origin components including the engine. J-10 is the better option to Pakistan but it will take time.

[Black Mamba]

speaking of aircrafts, which attack helicopter should pakistan opt for?
is the Cobra pakistan's best option?
y not some other source?

[Winter]

Politics, and of course, capability of design. Mostly the former...Availability isn't as much a factor. :roll

[Black Mamba]

ya but what kind of politics will v b having with the south africans or the italians?
they have a couple of capable helis don't they?

[Red aRRow]

No coment ! :(

Don't worry.... I think the JF-17 will always be available for Bosnia.

[ullu]

Bosnia isn't fighting another war for century or so. :D

[Oqaab]

ya but what kind of politics will v b having with the south africans or the italians?
they have a couple of capable helis don't they?

Italy and South Africa might not sell choppers to Pakistan coz they have to arm their forces first. France/Germany may sell us Tiger attack choppers.

[Londo Molari]

Rafale.

Not only is it the most capable choice, its also the only one not being politically blocked. Its the only one ACTUALLY available!

Costs a lot, but worthy investment.

[corsair7772]

hmmmmm
Y buy the rafale when the J-10 is comin online soon enuff... but i guess a J-10 and rafale combination wudnt be 2 bad...if we can afford it

[Londo Molari]

Rafale is superior to J-10.

J-10 is also not available to Pakistan till China gets its minimum requirement of 200 aircraft filled. Even then, they will only offer it to Pakistan if we have no other high tech fighter. That means we have to wait till about 2008. And if we get Rafale, J-10 won't be offered to us. China is very secretive about it.

Rafale is better though... it is actually superior to the Su-30MKI, where-as the J-10 is probably not.

[corsair7772]

No way! J-10 is the BOMB!!!!

[Londo Molari]

lol, I guess its possible. We don't really know how capable it is... China has been very secretive about its capabilities.

[zulfiqar_raza]

Pakistan is about a 10 years too late in getting a new fighter A/C. Pakistan needs to just order something now ASAP. J-10 (If the Chinese can give it to us NOW) otherwise Mirage 2000-9 ..

If not then we need to buy some highly sophisticated SAM systems. Passive radars (which would be immune to HARMs) and other items to build a highly impregnable Air Defence system.

But I haven't heard of anything lately.
When BB was there we bought the Augusta Submarines, when Nawaz was there the JF-17 was signed with China, why has the Military junta not done anything??

[Londo Molari]

its not magic... opportunities have to present themselves.

Other than China and France, all major arms suppliers don't sell to Pakistan, due to U.S. pressure.

Pakistan is still considering Mirage-2000.5 from France... and the JF-17 project with China is moving along, and different missiles/SAMS are being considered from China.

[Revival_786]

How fast is the Rafale?

[Winter]

Globalaircraft.org & Aerospaceweb.org:

Altitude at 11,000 m (36,000ft): 1,320 mph (2,125 km/h) - Mach 2
Sea level: 864 mph (1,390 km/h) - Mach 1.135

[Oqaab]

The export version might be more faster coz it will be powered my M-88-3C engines.

[Su_37]

Well , Pakistan don't have any option to counter this aircraft. Firstly let me tell you that SU30MKI is the Most advance Warplane currently , even it outpase American F-15 in finghting skills , it low speed knigf and cobra attack is deadly. That is why American is intrested in doing War game with india using F15 and Su30.

More over ,First of the these Su30 is Air defence fighter and not a multi role planes and these are used to give india a inhand experence, develop skills and tarinaing to it pilots before going to actual Su30MKI

That is why IAf decide to convert these into Maritime Planes to rule over sea .

Indian SU30MKI will be most advance plane in the world, as it will have state of Art defensive and offensive wepons. It will also have adjustable Thrusters , which is displayed in SU37 , Which will give a cutting edge over American F22 also.

So my dear Friends pakistan don't have any option against Indian SU30MKI. Bad Luck neareast competitor is F22 and i don't think American will give it.

[The Watcher]

SU30 is the best fighter in the world and only f22 is the nearest plane that can almost beat it? :lolol :lolol

Whats next? Arjun can invade pakistan on its own? :roll

[Timmy]

Where did Mr.Watcher go,i was w8in 4u in the other forum,have closed that one down now!

[Timmy]

anywayz, SU-30,37...etc. no doubt that Su-30 is a fine aircraft, but when fully armed its a flying tank, even a Mig pilot can shoot it like a duck.the actualy w8 of an Su-30 is about 30+ tones,just imagine that when its fully loaded how heavy will it be then!!!

[Su_37]

Well Kilo ..I like to differ on you .....
i think should u about the previous war that happen between india and pakistan ,,, at that time also pakistan had the killer instint . that say about one pakistani to 100 indian and also have State of Art world best tank and Air Planes ,, and then also they was defected by Indian's Infierior force , Tank with antitank missiles and their Star plane wiht infian inoerior vintage MIG's .

Kilo fist you should update ur knoledge on ground level What appers on the net or to known to intellegence is not reliable. Indian defence i the most secreat one.

[The Watcher]

Su-16, why are you telling everyone to update their knowledge? You think you know everything huh smart ass?

[Winter]

Weight/Mass whatever are not a serious factor for comparing combat aircraft in relation to their skills. Look at the F/A-18 Hornet and the Super Hornet.

[Londo Molari]

Eurofighter and Rafale are both superior to the Su-30MKI.

Gripen and F/A-18 E/F are both an even match for the Su-30MKI.

The F-22 would ANNIHILATE the Su-30MKI.

Yes, compared to Pakistan's current inventory, the Su-30MKI is very dangerous... but if we get JF-17s, the danger is reduced, and if we get the Rafale, we have a solid counter.

[Londo Molari]

I agree 100% that France and China are the only reliable major arms suppliers to Pakistan.

We are already getting tonnes of stuff from China... now we don't know what PAF is upto... maybe they are evaluating Mirage 2000.5 or Rafale.

[SK17]

I agree 100% that France and China are the only reliable major arms suppliers to Pakistan.


China, i would say 100% reliable but France, I will take it with a pinch of salt or % wise i would say 80% reliable. Oct/Nov 99, France did create some delays by few months for Pak Mirages which were done upgrading in France but eventually they delivered both Mirages and Agosta90b sub as promised to Musharraf govt.

[corsair7772]

Yea France is a good supplier but all their good aircraft r already taken like the Mirage 2000. Only hope now is the rafale if we can mange their expense.

[Blacksheep]

Why didn't you buy J-10 for you Air Force and cut all links with USA ?

[lamdacore]

AOA everyone,

I have been monitoring everones threads and responses on this site. I am would like to let you know that you all have great knowledge. However, a lot of you neglect a few basic things and boast far too much. Everyone has heard the phrase: "What goes up must come down". Well right now US is far up and it is probably time it will come down with great velocity head first into the ground!

Regarding China, it is a great nation and has helped us on many occasions such as the simple gesture it gives to India by lining its forces along the Indian-China border to prevent India to build those very forces along pakistan's border. In a way China is a defender of Pakistan as well. Let's all appreciate its help and pray it prospers.

Also, Chinese technology is not outdated nor advanced as some would say it. They just have equipment suited for a strange type of war. Check out the iraqis (ever heard of people using donkey-carts as a suitable medium for rocket attacks!!!). Well China is pretty much surprising in the same way. They are capable of rivalling every bit of technology by copying it or even countering it!

I think there is a great promise from the FC-1 plane that China and Pakistan have built. This bring about new technological improvements in each country's air force. So let's see which nation will come up with great planes!!
:)

[corsair7772]

I agree that China is a good supplier but in a limited field. China cant provide us with AWACS and modern artilley can it?

[corsair7772]

cuz it aint available and we'd just luv 2 cut links with US but the factor comez in we have 2 be armed 2 our teeth 2 do that.

[Su_37]

I don;t know what you people read. See for yourself in the Airshows where every plane shows its skills and AT one time SU37 Pilot openlly challenges the other for open competiotion , even F22 , Eurofighter etc can't even come farward.

The fighting skills , and low speed Knighf and Cobra style attack and Zero degree reverse Turn , can outbeat any missile and aircraft and its maneuverability is unmatched in the world.

If you don't believe it then go for air show where SU pilots challange is still wating ......

Man . u don';t know SU37 capabilities........

Rgarding Sitting ducks ..... first thing any plane has to do is protect itself from SU, becasue their are always behind anyone tails. ;)

[Su_37]

Cobra :

Perhaps the most fmous of all, in this move the sukhoi pitches up to 120 degrees angle of attack, and almost stops in mid air. The nose then falls back through to the horizontal, and the aircraft accelerates away in the original direction. There in no major gain or loss in height (unless there is an error of some sort on the entry and recovery.


Hook :

This is a cobra pulled whilst the a/c is turning in a circle so that it points its nose across the circle.

In the Su-37, the cobra and the hook are performed by the pilot disabling the angle of attack (alpha) limiter on the flight control system just prior to the pitch up. The fly-by-wire FCS normally limits the aircraft to 35 degrees alpha, but by disabling the alpha limiter, the pilot can generate up to 110 degrees alpha in the aircraft which does not have TVC. This is simply a demonstration of the aircraft's ability to generate a tremendous pitch rate, without changing the vector of flight.

Kulbit/Somersault :
It is performed by pulling up the machine with a steep angle of incidence (AOA) and a slowing down of the airspeed in an internal vertical role. This loop is extremely small in diameter and is only possible in TVC and FBW equipped aircraft.


Bell/Tailslide :

This involves rising up vertically till the speed is reduced to zero following which the nose is allowed to fall under gravity. The pilot uses this to change direction as desired. The Tailslide also defeats doppler radars on the attacking aircraft.


Some Manuvers only the SU37 can perform..


The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.



http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html#12

[Red aRRow]

Looks like all Pakistanis are upset with the U.S. over the non-delivery of the F-16s. :!:

[Oqaab]

Well , Pakistan don't have any option to counter this aircraft. Firstly let me tell you that SU30MKI is the Most advance Warplane currently , even it outpase American F-15 in finghting skills , it low speed knigf and cobra attack is deadly. That is why American is intrested in doing War game with india using F15 and Su30.

Rafale and Eurofighter has stealth capability. They can kill Su-30MKI in a dog fight. Comparing Su-30MKI with F-22 Raptor is a stupidity. Its manuverbility may match F-22's manuverbility but not in all respects.

More over ,First of the these Su30 is Air defence fighter and not a multi role planes and these are used to give india a inhand experence, develop skills and tarinaing to it pilots before going to actual Su30MKI

That is why IAf decide to convert these into Maritime Planes to rule over sea .

The real story behind it was IAF Su-30MKI's engines started giving problems after the 28th flanker reached India. All the Su-30MKIs were grounded at once. But now the problem is more or less, solved. I hope HAL will not make this aircraft the second "flying coffin" of IAF.

So my dear Friends pakistan don't have any option against Indian SU30MKI. Bad Luck neareast competitor is F22 and i don't think American will give it.

My dearest friend, any fourth generation fighter with high BVR capability is enough for PAF to counter Su-30MKI. All we need is one or two AWACS planes. Thats it !

Why didn't you buy J-10 for you Air Force and cut all links with USA ?

US will be selling Cobras, P-3s and C-130s to Pakistan. Possibly the harpoon also. No need of cutting ties with US. About J-10, it is not for export till 6-9 years.

[corsair7772]

The Su-37 is pretty good but it aint 4 export yet. If the Su-30 cant match f-22 then the Su-35 can. And wat was the name of that next generation sukhoi fighter agn? S-32?

[Londo Molari]

Nothing right now can match the F-22. Nothing.

Gripen, F/A-18, Rafale, Eurofighter, F-22 can ALL challange the Su-30/35/37. They dont fly manouvers in air shows because they have REAL work to do, like be used in air forces. While the Flanker earns majority of its money from just doing tricks.

Su-30 is capable, but it mostly shows off manouverability, and thats not a big help when it gets blown out of the sky by a medium range missile.

[Londo Molari]

F-16? We have let that go. Long ago, after being back-stabbed on four separate occasions, we have finally let go of the F-16 dream. The U.S. dangles it as bait every time they want us to do something, and then they never deliver. Instead we get paid back in soybeans, decades later.

Although it looks like our government is still in denial, as they continue to ask for F-16s :roll

[corsair7772]

im thinkin the same way. Its high time we looked over 2 China and France 4 high-techies.

PS abt the AWACS problem. Ukraines got the A-71 which looks pretty good and cud have a bargain price of $50 mill a piece. How abt 10 of these 4 $500 mill?

[corsair7772]

U dont know what ur talkin abt buddy. That plane does all those tricks cuz it has a market 2 get exported 2. The Su-35 is more capable than the F-16 no matter wat version u name. And dont worry, once the Mig 1.44 starts flyin u can kiss ur F-22s bye.

PS the F-22 is a burden on itself with all the price tags it carries. Any1 can make a good aircraft if they spend loads on it. Its the aircraft which gives more and takes less thats the best.

[Londo Molari]

Oh my God man. Do you really believe that stuff? If you do fine... But I know the Block 50/60 F-16 is better than Su-35, and the F-22 is better than Mig 1.44 which has been CANCELLED by the way.

[Gremlin29]

Never mind the fact that the pilots flying the Su 35's are factory test pilots that know the workings of the plane like no military pilot Ever will. Secondly, I know from performing in airshows myself, US pilots are briefed on EXACTLY what maneuvers and flights we are permitted to perform prior to flying, and taking up a boastful challenges isn't one of em. Taking on challenges isn't something Any responsible aviator would do, particularly at an Airshow with hundreds of thousands of spectators.

The Cobra maneuver is niffty to see, I've seen it in person but it's applicability or more importantly usability in high speed combat is debatable. 3 things a combat pilot Never wants to run out of are 1. Airspeed 2. Altitude 3. Ideas. Anyone that would stand an aircraft on it's tail and put themselves in a high AOA low airspeed flight envelope with a hot fighter on their tail is an idiot. I've seen some of the other wonderful and equally impressive maneuvers the Advanced soviet designs have flown at airshows (again by truely capable and highly experienced factory test pilots), several of which resulted in the plane crashing. High maneuverablity is great don't get me wrong, but gun kills are not the order of the day for todays fighters.

Su35 may be a MATCH for F-15 but who cares? F-15 is 30 years old and scheduled for replacement in 2 more years by the F-22 which will eat Su35's for breakfast.

Guys, the last point to make is about training. I don't care how capable an aircraft is, or how spiffy the pilots uniform is. If you can't put the dollars into training it will all be for naught. Anybody remember the Luftwaffe?

[corsair7772]

WHO THE HELL SAID THE MIG 1.44 IS CANCELLED? GET UR BOOKS AND GET AN UPDATE! ITS STILL RUNNIN BUT SLOWLY CUZ OF LACK OF FUNDS.

[Londo Molari]

it is cancelled... where does it say its still running? show me a link

http://www.aviationnow.com/content/ncof/ncf_n73.htm

Ilya Klebanov, Russia's industry, science and technology minister, said that on Apr. 26 the government's military-industrial commission made the decision to award Sukhoi the role of lead developerfor a fifth-generation fighter to succeed the Su-27 Flanker and MiG-29 Fulcrum. Klebanov added the MiG Corp. and the Yakovlev Design Bureau would participate in the program, known as the Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi (Prospective Aviation Complex for Frontal Aviation [PAK FA]).

Despite this, however, the decision is a serious blow for MiG, leaving it without a future fighter program. In the mid-1980s the company had defeated Sukhoi in winning the competition for a twin-engine heavy multi-role tactical fighter, the MFI (Mnogofunktionalniy Frontovoi Istribitel) program, intended to succeed the Flanker. MiG eventually flew the prototype, dubbed the Article 1.44, in April 2000, but the program proved unsustainable.

Basically Russia wanted a next generation fighter. The Su-47 was Sukhoi's technology demonstrator, and the Mig 1.44 was Mikoyan's technology demonstrator. The contract was awarded to Sukhoi won, and now the actual next generation aircraft PAK-FA is being made by Sukhoi (and Mikoyan) based on both the Su-47 and Mig 1.44.

[Mehmood]

JF-17 is the best option as it is a good aircraft and we are going to get it cheap and easy.After it, I think that J-10 is the best option as China is an ally and will give us the aircraft without any terms like the US.

[umair]

im thinkin the same way. Its high time we looked over 2 China and France 4 high-techies.

PS abt the AWACS problem. Ukraines got the A-71 which looks pretty good and cud have a bargain price of $50 mill a piece. How abt 10 of these 4 $500 mill?

Ditto man! But after the Sabre any fighter which is realy close to the hearts of those PAF pilots who have flown it is the Falcon.Man I wish that we coul somehow get more of these birds. :(

[Su_37]

Gremlin29: Never mind the fact that the pilots flying the Su 35's are factory test pilots that know the workings of the plane like no military pilot Ever will. Secondly, I know from performing in airshows myself, US pilots are briefed on EXACTLY what maneuvers and flights we are permitted to perform prior to flying, and taking up a boastful challenges isn't one of em. Taking on challenges isn't something Any responsible aviator would do, particularly at an Airshow with hundreds of thousands of spectators.

The Cobra maneuver is niffty to see, I've seen it in person but it's applicability or more importantly usability in high speed combat is debatable. 3 things a combat pilot Never wants to run out of are 1. Airspeed 2. Altitude 3. Ideas. Anyone that would stand an aircraft on it's tail and put themselves in a high AOA low airspeed flight envelope with a hot fighter on their tail is an idiot. I've seen some of the other wonderful and equally impressive maneuvers the Advanced soviet designs have flown at airshows (again by truely capable and highly experienced factory test pilots), several of which resulted in the plane crashing. High maneuverablity is great don't get me wrong, but gun kills are not the order of the day for todays fighters.

Su35 may be a MATCH for F-15 but who cares? F-15 is 30 years old and scheduled for replacement in 2 more years by the F-22 which will eat Su35's for breakfast.

Guys, the last point to make is about training. I don't care how capable an aircraft is, or how spiffy the pilots uniform is. If you can't put the dollars into training it will all be for naught. Anybody remember the Luftwaffe?



Well my dear friend , Cobra Style is used to dogged Missiles and planes on tail and then came behind.

Take seen where F22 is on behind Su27 and syddenly SU37 halts on air and F22 due to speed moved ahead of Su37 and now SU37 on F22 tail ,, man manuvers are the real things which comes handy in DOG fight.

Like this thier many things which SU37 can perform only ,, and If you dont believe ,, as nay USAF personnel , he will tell you about SU 37 capability.

In wepon design no one can beat Russian , See they brough down american Spy plane U2 with SAM , which USA denied ot existance before that, they Build MIG 27 which no missile or plane can catch. build Silent kilo ( black hole subs) . NO one can beat russian in wepons capability.

Moreover , these SU30 MKI will also have Stealth features as Eroplane or raflal have. It is intergrated with Isreali electronic warefare system , indian software , french radar the best possible combination one can get.

[WebMaster]

Su37, please stick to the topic (Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ???? and not capabilities of Russian planes that india might get). Also, the reply that you quoted does not talk about su-37 but of su35.

Also, please make sure "Disable BBCode in this post" this option is NOT clicked when you reply to a topic. BBCODEs are your friend, they make your replies look good and well formatted.

THANK YOU

[Gremlin29]

Aside from disagreeing with your fantasy SU-37 the point is moot since this aircraft is not in service. Your really digging if a U2 shootdown 41 years ago is the best you can do to prove Russian supremecy in weapons capabilities. Maybe you would be happiest if the evil American defense industry wasn't cranking out the best systems in the world on a massive scale but they are and the fact that your comparing an aircraft that hasn't even entered production with those that have been in service for 30 years proves that point. It's taken the Russian 30 years to come up with something that poses a serious threat to F-15?

F-16 would be an ideal aircraft for PAF, it is small, relatively inexpensive and superior to anything they would most likely come up against in the forseeable future. Political considerations obviously make this to more of a wish at the moment but you never know.

[umair]

F-16 would be an ideal aircraft for PAF, it is small, relatively inexpensive and superior to anything they would most likely come up against in the forseeable future. Political considerations obviously make this to more of a wish at the moment but you never know.

I wish your congressmen would also think like that and remember one of USA's most steadfast allies :( [/quote]

[Londo Molari]

Bah, we've given up on the F-16. Its been dangled in front of us 4 times now.

Self-reliance is the best way to go, even though it seems unrealistic based on Pakistan's current condition... but China will teach us how to manufacture 90% of the JF-17... so that should help our industry...

[Gremlin29]

Guys I agree. Pakistan has been a steadfast and visible supporter of the UN missions throughout the world, it really is a shame that you don't get more support from US, or any of the other UN members that could help. You are quite correct that producing your own aircraft would be the best option feasible or not. What about Mig 29?

[Red aRRow]

Guys I agree. Pakistan has been a steadfast and visible supporter of the UN missions throughout the world, it really is a shame that you don't get more support from US, or any of the other UN members that could help. You are quite correct that producing your own aircraft would be the best option feasible or not. What about Mig 29?

Pakistan is the largest contributor of troops to the U.N. missions in the world.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/ques.htm

Mig-29??? from whom? and I think that Mig-29 does not fit the requirements for PAF.
I wish Pakistan and India solve the Kashmir issue according to the United Nations resolutions and get this stupid childish game of one upmanship over with.

[Londo Molari]

Mig-29 would need Russian permission, which is a NO-NO, since India is Russia's biggest customer. So no Migs or Sukhois.

[Rashid]

hello!
i am basically a medical student but i am very intersted in aircarfts.
so as paf .comming to the topic i think that pakistan should try to get french made raphale and chinese su27uk (J11) or it can be the upgradation of JF 17 thunder bolt its engines avionics etc:~~~~~~ SO IT CAN BE A REAL GOOD AND DIFFICULT CHOICE to make i think paf marshals will do there best.
allah hafiz
Rashid Asghar

[corsair7772]

All we can get from the russians is civil aircraft built by tupolev which raises the point wether russia wud be willing 2 sell us non-military aircraft such as those for recon and martime role.

PS abt the J-11. Id thought abt inducting it along with the J-10 as they wud make a good combination but India already has its version the Su-30 and its difficult 2 diffrentiate between the 2 so well be getting friendly fire a lot.

[Oqaab]

Mig-29??? from whom? and I think that Mig-29 does not fit the requirements for PAF.
I wish Pakistan and India solve the Kashmir issue according to the United Nations resolutions and get this stupid childish game of one upmanship over with.

I think it is a good option if itsRange is increased. But again the question will be "from whom".

[Su_37]

Well first Admistrater , thanks

and then i have doubt wheather r u Nutral or not ? i am just replying to the questions which are posted before my writing and you single hand picked me ...

I dont; think you seen an artical about UN role ,,,, and what if i replyed to that topic also by Germlin29 .... I don;t see any warning hanging around ...... i can also answer that but i am not , anyway ,....well i have begin the feeling that this is pro group and i don't have the habit of bangging my head against walls ,,,,

I also can join the another group which i think is the best and netural and also have the some pro and counter point with technical and writtings ... and also agree with open minds ,


thanks ,,

[Su_37]

Well Su 27 Poj was begain long ago and its russia air force can't gets their hands on ....

well even not russian air foce can't effort SU 30, 37, etc because they can't effort . Even russian airforce officals admits it .

[Aussie Digger]

I think Pakistan should be opting for French aircraft, provided they will sell them. Taiwan seems extremely happy with it's Mirage 2000-5's rating them more highly than F16's, which incidently have never been defeated in Air combat, much like the F14, F15 and F18. The Rafale may be expensive but I believe it would offer Pakistan the greatest Air Combat capability that they could possibly acquire. Plus additional orders of Rafale, will bring the price down. If the US won't sell it's aircraft to Pakistan, then they'd be better off re-investing in a combined French/Chinese supplied fleet. This could work along the lines of the United States system of "hi-Lo" aircraft combinations, ie: high capability aircraft - F15/F22 combined in mission packages with lower capability aircraft F16/JSF. Except in Pakistan's case it would be Rafale providing Hi-end capability and J10 or similar providing the lo-end capability. This would allow Pakistan (IMHO) to maintain a qualitative edge over India with the Rafale, and at least provide a reasonable quantative ratio with the J10.

The sale of their current F16's to a 3rd party could also help pay for additional aircraft. Pakistan also desperately needs an AWACS and air to air refuelling capability, in my opinion. These 2 capabilities are essential in modern warfare and provide a very valuable "force multiplying" capability. The only problem with French aircraft, is they reserve the right to stop supporting the aircraft if a country uses them in a war or in a manner the French don't agree with. This was one of the reasons Australia purchaed FA/18's when we replaced our Mirages. America just wants the dollars, damn capitalists...

[Revival_786]

Ok, I love this post. Such excellent insights. Very, very interesting stuff! :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

My suggestions:

Pakistan needs an AWACs capability. If you cannot see your airspace without realtime satellites, then you need real time area interrogation. Only an AWACs will give you that.

Once you can see your airspace then you need to tobe able to secure it against the known threats:

Known Threats

Capable 4th generation aircraft in substantial numbers

That means that you have to neutralise the advantage. That means that you need to have substantial EAD in place.
That also restricts your purchasing capability to France and China. technically I would rate French technology substantially better than Chinese. So French SAMs over rebuilt Russian technology anyday. Or French EW systems inegtrated into Russian fire control systems and EAD systems

If you like the F16 then think about trying a re-engine. French Engines as they are robust, reliable and available.
If you can't get F16's (and in the current climate that is not necessarily so), then you should buy Rafales.
Rafale's will provide a sophisticated capability and let you have lesser capable aircraft like J7's etc to manage the lower air space threats.

I have an aversion to Chinese jets as they are not of the same build quality - it is not quantity that counts, its is quality, capability and pilot training. There is no point in buying a cheap 3rd generation fighter if it has no hope of lasting in an "aviation knife fight". Unless you have the right electronics, the right flight systems, the right weapons matched to the threat, then all you have is a plane that is a target for another nations fighter pilots and SEA systems.

The problem with the French is as AussieDigger said, they can turn off parts if they want. You have already experienced this to some extent with the US.

In the current climate, the french are not going to be difficult, they need to sell Rafales as no one else has bought the aircraft and they want to recover their costs. It would also make integration of air systems into Pakistans SAM systems, current EW capability an easier fit.

Everyone gets excited about russian aircraft and forgets that they have lousy uptime. It doesn't matter if it is cheaper if you are going to spend twice as much (actually more) time on the ground maintaining it. If its on the ground, then you are losing sortie times. When your airforce is smaller, it will work harder and that means you will have higher down times.
The F7's, F10's will suffer from the build mentality mindset that was responsible for their development in the first place.

You can't build a decent air force by buying cheap and hoping that having more aircraft in the air will give you leverage.
Someone in the airforce actually needs to design an integrated solution for the entire force structure.

[Oqaab]

Pakistan needs an AWACs capability. If you cannot see your airspace without realtime satellites, then you need real time area interrogation. Only an AWACs will give you that.

I agree with u. AWACS will help PAF a lot.

If you like the F16 then think about trying a re-engine. French Engines as they are robust, reliable and available.
If you can't get F16's (and in the current climate that is not necessarily so), then you should buy Rafales.
Rafale's will provide a sophisticated capability and let you have lesser capable aircraft like J7's etc to manage the lower air space threats.

Yes, rafale is the best option to PAF. But the current climate is also indicating that PAF is more interested in Eurofighter.

The problem with the French is as AussieDigger said, they can turn off parts if they want. You have already experienced this to some extent with the US.

I dont think so. Sanctions were imposed over Pakistan by US, Britain and Sweden (maybe more) but France was selling us mirages. Also Pakistan has a policy of keeping a minimum detterent so 25 - 35 Rafales will be enough for PAF.

[gf0012-aust]

I dont think so. Sanctions were imposed over Pakistan by US, Britain and Sweden (maybe more) but France was selling us mirages. Also Pakistan has a policy of keeping a minimum detterent so 25 - 35 Rafales will be enough for PAF.



Oqaab , the French ended up terminating supplies of the Exocet to the Argentinians. At one stage the issue of the Rose Mirages being sold was due to the French being reticent. However, if you are confident.

If there were no restrictions then I would prefer the Eurofighter. It has more combat hours and is flown by more nations - it is a little more tested than the Rafale.

Pakistan does need to have an integrated EAD system in place though. Otherwise all of your air force jets become easier targets.

[Revival_786]

What's EAD?