Pakistani Options - post Patriot delivery to India

[asaracen]

Panic Grips Pakistani Generals as US Agrees to Sell Patriot Missiles to India
http://www.satribune.com/archives/200502/P1_sss.htm>

What are possible Pakistani options, after India gets Patriots??

[Aussie Digger]

"he is going to make noise like a skeleton on a hot tin roof", according to analysts. I would have thought analysts would have been a bit more, well analytical than this...

Israel DID not use or deploy Patriot missiles during GW1. The US did. It deployed several Patriot batteries to Israel in an attempt to intercept the Scuds, but this is an easily overlooked oversight, I suppose...

"These sales have so far been all on US terms and the latest goods in the pipeline worth $1.2 billion are basically 8 P-3C Orion reconnaissance aircraft which, many experts believe, Pakistan hardly needs in preference to strike capability F-16s or equivalent aircraft".

Yeah, Countries (particularly poorer ones like Pakistan) spend $1.2 Billion on capablities they don't need. What a load of shite...

This whole article is rubbish IMHO. I'll believe the US has sold Patriot's to India when I read it on a reputable website, not this rag...

[srirangan]

The Pentagon team did visit Delhi to brief the Indian side on the capabilities of the Patriots. A final deal/agreement has not yet been reached. And yeah, SAT is crap.

[ajay_ijn]

Already one thread is their in the WMD on this topic.
Pakistan has one option,Building Longer Range Ballistic Missiles that can overwhelm the Patriot Capability.

As sri said PAC-2 deal is still not final,Congress still did not give the permission of sale Patriot to India.
Media Builds castles in Air,US Still Did not completely agree to sell Patriot to India.
One Doubt,What US Team exactly do in the technical Presentation,Will They bring the actual patriot System and show it or Share some Technology on Patriot.

India wants to get the technology of Patriot rather than Actually Deploying the System.

[srirangan]

Already one thread is their in the WMD on this topic.
Pakistan has one option,Building Longer Range Ballistic Missiles that can overwhelm the Patriot Capability.
...
India wants to get the technology of Patriot rather than Actually Deploying the System.
I don't think longer range could beat the Patriots. Cuz Patriots (and infact all other MD's) try to shoot downt hte BM as it takes off. Options for Pak will be to build nuke capable cruise missiles, or gain an air superiority over India/

And true, India is just interested in the tech and not the PAC-2's. India needs to find a way to integrate the S-300's with the Green Pines.

[ajay_ijn]

I don't think longer range could beat the Patriots. Cuz Patriots (and infact all other MD's) try to shoot downt hte BM as it takes off.


ABM Systems are designed to Kill BMs in Final Stage.
U Mean Boost Phase Interception.
There are Many Limitations in BPI,The Launch Pad must be atleast in the range of Patriot Missile.

SBL are effective Interceptors in Boost Phase.
And also Air Platforms like UAVs and the recent ABL are designed to kill BMs in Boost Phase.
http://www.missilethreat.com/overview/destroyphasebyphase.html

Nevertheless, killing missiles in boost phase is difficult because of one requirement: all the equipment for detection, discrimination, fire control and killing must be present within range of the boosting missiles, and just at the time when their engines are burning. Hence the effectiveness of equipment for killing missiles in boost phase depends—like the value of real estate—on location, location, location. And since enemies launch missiles either from their own territory, from others’ territory, or from surprise locations at sea, having the equipment at the right time and place can be a problem.

The problem, obviously, cannot be solved by stationing the missile killing equipment on the enemy’s soil, or by flying that equipment where the enemy can shoot it down. Very rarely, the problem is soluble by putting the equipment on the ground - providing that it is on the soil of a country right next to the one from which the missiles are being launched, close to the point of launch, and directly under the trajectory that the missiles must travel to get to their targets. The problem is also soluble by putting the equipment on ships, but only if the enemy must launch his missiles over the sea and from near a coast, and interceptors launched from the ships can hit them before they get out of range. But mostly, killing missiles in boost phase must mean putting all the requisite equipment, in sufficient quantity, in earth orbits from which it can be present constantly, in relative safety, over all the places from which missiles might be launched.

[adsH]

Bunch of Bull Crap!! The Patriots were at best able to deflect the Iraqi Scud in the recent Gulf war, Scuds did hit Riyadh in the 90s where I used to live and there were Patriots on the look out the entire US and Saudi Overlapping Systems. None of them did much shooting down. And those were Iraqi Scuds; I doubt the patriots would be able to Take out a Pakistani IRBM. And it doesn’t matter if the Missile is ICBM or IRBM they both operate on similar principals and they all accelerate during atmosphere reentry stage and most of them are very accurate and almost all modern BM are capable which means they have the Self protection systems sophisticated guidance systems etc.

[adsH]

I don't think longer range could beat the Patriots. Cuz Patriots (and infact all other MD's) try to shoot downt hte BM as it takes off. Options for Pak will be to build nuke capable cruise missiles, or gain an air superiority over India/

And true, India is just interested in the tech and not the PAC-2's. India needs to find a way to integrate the S-300's with the Green Pines.


Brilliant if you think you can shoot down a sophisticated multimillion dollar IRBM During its boot phase within its territory, well then your really clever aren’t yeah, you fail to see the situation an IRBM is launched in, there are going to be Anti radiation missiles in the field and the traditional C and S band Jammers + future upgrades to the strategy. These Patriots would at best protect the covered area from Cruise missiles Air to ground missiles and Scuds, the US is still researching Anti BM technology and this isn't even the Tipp of the Iceberg. Pakistani FT-2000 are almost as capable but they lack the Range which is about 60-100 km. Couple that up with the American AN/TPS-77 radar network recently provided to PAF I’d Bet PAF has plenty to not worry.

[adsH]

Here's the Pakistani option


http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html
Home (http://www.missilethreat.com/) :: Missile Defense Systems (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/)

FT-2000









Country:ChinaBasing:LandStatus:Operational, Exported


Details



In a report to Congress on May 28, 2004, the U.S. Department of Defense highlighted the major improvements that China has made to its air and missile defense systems over the past few years, including “[the] development of an antiradiation SAM [surface-to-air missile], most likely intended to target AWACS [Airborne Warning and Control System] aircraft and standoff jamming platforms.”(1) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note1)

The report was referring specifically to the FT-2000, a Chinese anti-radiation surface-to-air missile system designed to counter electronic jamming aircraft, AWACS aircraft, and other air radiation wave targets. Developed and manufactured by the China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) during the late 1990s, the FT-2000 is also believed to be capable of destroying tactical ballistic missiles, similar to the U.S. Patriot and the Russian S-300P (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/s-300p.html) systems on which it is based.(2) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note2) At present, two versions exist, the mobile FT-2000 and the fixed-based FT-2000A.(3) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note3)

The FT-2000 is the direct result of a concerted effort by China to eliminate an inherent vulnerability in medium- and long-range surface-to-air missiles: jamming. For decades, air and missile defense systems like the Patriot and the S-300P have been susceptible to advanced techniques designed to confuse or immobile their interceptor missiles and keep them from reaching their targets. One of the most common jamming devices is S- and C-band airborne noise. If used properly, this and other deception mechanisms lead to what is known as the “suppression of enemy air defenses” and allows attacking aircraft and missiles to proceed to their targets without challenge.(4) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note4)

The FT-2000 was designed to neutralize and counter these airborne jamming devices. It contains a passive radar target seeker programmed to detect the specific electromagnetic signals emanating from its target. Essentially, the FT-2000 uses its target’s own jamming frequencies against it. In addition, the FT-2000 has a passive homing system that does not transmit electromagnetic waves, thus minimizing the chances that its enemies will detect it in time.(5) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note5) The system is equipped with modified HQ-9 interceptor missiles, each of which is 6.8 meters long, 0.47 meters in diameter, and has a launch weight of 1,300 kilograms. The HQ-9 missiles give the FT-2000 a range of 12 to 100 kilometers and an operating altitude of 3 to 20 kilometers. The mobile system is transported and launched on an 8 X 8 cross-country launcher with four canisters that resemble those used by the S-300P.(6) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note6)

In addition to the mobile FT-2000, China has developed a fixed-based variant, the FT-2000A. According to a recent Chinese sales brochure, the FT-2000A uses a highly-modified HQ-2 missile that has been equipped with passive radio frequency homing seekers. Each HQ-2 is armed with a 60-kilogram fragmentation warhead and has a range of 60 kilometers and a maximum altitude of 18 kilometers. Reports indicate that each FT-2000A battery consists of 12 missile launchers, each containing one missile, and a central control station. The central control station has one master passive sensor and three auxiliary passive sensors. The four sensors are capable of triangulating on electromagnetic signals in the 2- and 6-GHz frequency range, which covers most AWACS aircraft and other air radiation wave targets, thus earning it the nickname “AWACS killer.”(7) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note7)

In addition to its role as an anti-radiation missile system, the FT-2000 also has advanced capability against tactical ballistic missiles, although this point is seldom mentioned. As Richard D. Fisher, Jr. has pointed out, Chinese officials at the 1998 Zhuhai Air Show—shortly after plans for the FT-2000 had been unveiled—stated that the FT-2000 was being developed into an active-guided missile that eventually would have the ability to shoot down short- and medium-range ballistic missiles.(8) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note8) Since the FT-2000 is based on comprehensive systems such as the U.S. Patriot and the S-300P, it is no surprise that it too has anti-missile capabilities.

In October 2003, it was reported that China had closed a deal with its neighbor, Pakistan, to supply the latter with an unspecified number of FT-2000 missiles to counter India’s early warning capabilities. The China-Pakistan deal followed India’s own arrangement with Israel and Russia to install three Israeli Phalcon AWACS on Ilyushin Il-76 freighter aircraft, thus giving it an airborne early warning system.(9) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note9) According to various news sources, shortly after India announced its acquisition of the Phalcon radars, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the head of Pakistan’s air force, visited China and conveyed Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s wish to purchase an unspecified number of FT-2000s.(10) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note10)

The recent China-Pakistan arrangement may just be an attempt to maintain the delicate balance of power between India and Pakistan, both of which possess nuclear weapons. Yet according to an article published in Malaysia in January 2003, the People’s Liberation Army is eager to export the FT-2000 around the globe.(11) (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#note11) It is entirely possible that “AWACS killer” air and missile defense systems like the FT-2000 will soon proliferate throughout Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, a development that would introduce a multitude of strategic problems for the U.S. and its allies.

Jane’s: China Developing Two Versions of FT-2000 Missile Defense System

December 10, 2004 :: Jane’s Information Group (http://www.janes.com/) :: News

The December issue of Jane’s Missiles and Rockets notes that China is developing two versions of the FT-2000 air and missile defense system, namely the FT-2000A and FT-2000B. The report of the two versions is not by itself new. The article rather seems to have been prompted by a leaflet distributed at the recent Zhuhai air show. New information added by the leaflet also includes that the full system, which China reportedly hopes to market around the world, would include a “passive radar,” 12 launchers with one missile each, a single support station, and three slave or relay stations.

The -A and -B versions vary in range and capability, and are based on the Chinese HQ-2 and Chinese HQ-9 respectively. (Link (http://www.missilethreat.com/news/200412101537.html))

» More stories on: China (http://www.missilethreat.com/news/china.html) and Chinese Missile Defenses (http://www.missilethreat.com/news/chinese_md.html)







Footnotes




U.S. Department of Defense, “FY04 Report to Congress on PRC Military Power Pursuant to the FY2000 National Defense Authorization Act,” May 2004 (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/www.defenselink.mil/pubs/d20040528PRC.pdf). (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back1))
Richard D. Fisher, Jr., “China Increases Its Missile Forces While Opposing U.S. Missile Defense”, The Heritage Foundation Backgrounder, No. 1268, 7 April 1999; Richard D. Fisher, Jr., “NMD DOA? China’s Missile Defense Ruse,” The Asian Wall Street Journal, 27 July 2000; Richard D. Fisher, Jr., “PLA Air Force Equipment Trends,” in The People’s Liberation Army and China in Transition, ed. Stephen J. Flanagan and Michael E. Marti, 139-176 (Washington, D.C.: National Defense University Press, 2003). (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back2))
“China Reportedly Develops Own Missile Defence System,” Hong Kong Sing Tao Jih Pao, 2 November 1999, A13; Richard D. Fisher, Jr., “NMD DOA? China’s Missile Defense Ruse,” The Asian Wall Street Journal, 27 July 2000; Bulbul Singh, “Pakistan Seeks FT 2000 Missiles to Counter Indian Warning System,” Aerospace Daily, 28 October 2003. (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back3))
SinoDefense.com (http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airdefence/ft2000.asp). (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back4))
GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/ft-2000.htm); David A. Fulghum and Robert Wall, “Russia’s Top Designers Claim Antistealth Skills,” Aviation Week & Space Technology, 8 October 2001; Robert Wall, “China Seen Building Conventional Might Pentagon; China Experts Detail Extensive Chinese Plan to Strengthen its Military to Confront Taiwan and the U.S.,” Aviation Week & Space Technology, 3 July 2000; Bulbul Singh, “Pakistan Seeks FT 2000 Missiles to Counter Indian Warning System,” Aerospace Daily, 28 October 2003. (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back5))
U.S. Department of Defense, “Annual Report on the Military Power of the People’s Republic of China,” January 2000; SinoDefense.com (http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airdefence/ft2000.asp). (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back6))
Robert Wall, “China Seen Building Conventional Might Pentagon; China Experts Detail Extensive Chinese Plan to Strengthen its Military to Confront Taiwan and the U.S.”; Robert Wall, “Chinese Advance in Electronic Attack,” Aviation Week & Space Technology, 28 October 2002; GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/ft-2000a.htm); SinoDefense.com (http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airdefence/ft2000.asp); U.S. Department of Defense, “Annual Report on the Military Power of the People’s Republic of China,” January 2000. (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back7))
Richard D. Fisher, Jr., “PLA Air Force Equipment Trends.” (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back8))
Bulbul Singh, “Pakistan Seeks FT 2000 Missiles to Counter Indian Warning System,” Aerospace Daily, 28 October 2003. (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back9))
Anik K. Joseph, “First China-Pak Joint Naval Exercise Begin,” The Press Trust of India Limited, 21 October 2003. (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back10))
Prasun K. Sengupta, “China’s KS-1A and FT-2000A Air Defence Systems Unveiled,” Tempur, January 1, 2003, p. 60, in Richard D. Fisher, Jr., “The Impact of Foreign Weapons and Technology on the Modernization of China’s People’s Liberation Army,” submitted to the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, January 2004. (Back (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/ft-2000.html#back11))


Home (http://www.missilethreat.com/) :: Missile Defense Systems (http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/)

[srirangan]

Brilliant if you think you can shoot down a sophisticated multimillion dollar IRBM During Brilliant, you didn't understand my comment and went on with a rant.

[ajay_ijn]

And it doesn’t matter if the Missile is ICBM or IRBM they both operate on similar principals and they all accelerate during atmosphere reentry stage and most of them are very accurate and almost all modern BM are capable which means they have the Self protection systems sophisticated guidance systems etc.


It does matter.
ICBMs have very high speed in their terminal stage,
For example Peacekeeper ICBM has a Speed Mach 20 or 15000 miles per hour that too at Sea Level.
IRBMs don't gather so much speed at the Final Stage.
For example Indian Agni-II IRBM Can travel at Speeds of Mach 9.
Higher Speeds will have big advantage of surprising Defences.

Ballistic Missiles capabilities Heavily depends of which type it belongs to SRBM,IRBM or ICBM.
Its the Basic Principle of Ballistic Missiles that the Higher the Ballistic Missile travels the Faster it would enter into the earths atmosphere.
This is the reason nowadays ABM Systems are capable of intercepting nearly all SRBMs.

ICBMs are near impossible to stop unlike IRBMs which todays ABM Systems are Some what Capable of intercepting


How high missiles fly determines how fast they come down onto their targets. The speed at which they come down is important because the greater the speed the more difficult it is for ground-based defenses to do their job. A warhead’s maximum speed just before reentry is a natural consequence of the range of the missile on which it was launched. The longer the range, the higher the missile must climb to reach it. The higher it climbs, the more time it takes for it to fall to the ground. And the longer time it takes, the more time that gravity has to make it go faster. Since gravity accelerates the warhead downward at 10 meters per second per second, and an intercontinental missile may be falling from an altitude of 1200 to 1600 kilometers, it may attain a speed of between 6 and 8 kilometers per second before it hits the atmosphere. For the same reason, a short-range missile like the Iraqi version of the Scud used in the Gulf War of 1991 reaches only heights of some 160 kilometers and hence arrives at a speed of less than 2 km per second.



I doubt the patriots would be able to Take out a Pakistani IRBM.

Even I doubt about that.
But India does not want PAC to be deployed in large numbers but just get the classified Technology,So that they can improve the locally developed Akash to ABM Capability.
Capability of Patriot is not such big issue.
But the psychological (http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&q=psychological&spell=1) and Stragtegic Advantage India would get.
Worry for Pakistan Army about the news of Patriot is proof for that.
Generally most people tend to assume that US Weapon Systems are best in the world unlike in this Case Russian Systems are better.


What I think is India would just buy 3 or 4 PAC-2 Systems and deploy in Major Cities.

[ajay_ijn]

Asdh,FT-2000 can just Counter the Patriot.
But There is already a Missile Developed that is specially designed to Kill the Patriot System.
It Called as Kh-31 Krypton Anti-Radar Missile Specifically designed to kill Patriot and Aegis Based Ships.
Developed by Zveda this is an Air-Launched Missile that can go at a Speed of Mach 1.8 initially and later accelerates to Mach 4.5
Range is 70km.
It can attack even if radar is turned off.
India already has this Missile armed with Su-30MKI.
Chinese too have these Missiles designated as YJ-91 and knows as KR-1 for export.
Pakistan Can get that from Chinese.

Zvezda Kh-31 (AS-17 Krypton) (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/as-17.htm)

[ajay_ijn]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=38577#post38577

STOP Quoting ME OUT OF CONTEXT Another CONVERSATION BEING THE CONTEXT.
Can't be bothered to reply to this long winded Reply see this http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3564 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3564)

No Need to reply,But Admin said that it would be good if our discussion is Limited to Military rather becoming political.
All i wanted to say is don't post Such comments on India-Pakistan Conflict.

And U were saying something about India.

INdia loves to live and does want others to live but it wants others to live as it wants them to live.

U Better apologise for that.
India never forces any country to live as She wants.
U Were Speaking as if U Know Everything about India.
Be in your limits.

[ajay_ijn]

India didn't even sign the deal or atleast close signing the deal or atleast US Giving permission u guyz are already thinking about Pakistan Options.

First Let India buy them then lets think what can pakistan has to do.

What Happened to the Sanctions threat that India was thinking about.
Patriot is related to WMD So Threat of Sanctions will affect Patriot the Most.

[adsH]

U Better apologise for that.
India never forces any country to live as She wants.
U Were Speaking as if U Know Everything about India.
Be in your limits.



I wont apologize for something I believe inn, I see India as the next power problem the west would have to deal with like Russia China and now India. All of these Nation have something in common and that is that they crave power. And every power nation likes things done as it suits them.

[Elite Brain]

Panic Grips Pakistani Generals as US Agrees to Sell Patriot Missiles to India
http://www.satribune.com/archives/200502/P1_sss.htm>

What are possible Pakistani options, after India gets Patriots??



Disregard this rag....its just a psuedo storyteller News rag written by a Fake reporter who was kicked out of pakistan i believe. I will prefer to read more on the subject when i see it on Janes Defense weekly.:coffee

[Pathfinder-X]

I don't think longer range could beat the Patriots. Cuz Patriots (and infact all other MD's) try to shoot downt hte BM as it takes off. Options for Pak will be to build nuke capable cruise missiles, or gain an air superiority over India

And true, India is just interested in the tech and not the PAC-2's. India needs to find a way to integrate the S-300's with the Green Pines.

Srir, all recorded interception of ballistic missiles happened during its final stages of flight, not initial stages. In order to intercept a ballistic missile during its boosting stages you will need a early detection and a measure to take out the missile. PAC or any other existing anti ballistic missile systems simply do not have the capability to do so. Just wanted to make a clarification.

Also I noticed some heat in some of the member's comments. Please remember to follow the forum rules. I will inform the mod in charge of this section to keep an eye out.

[ajay_ijn]

I wont apologize for something I believe inn, I see India as the next power problem the west would have to deal with like Russia China and now India. All of these Nation have something in common and that is that they crave power. And every power nation likes things done as it suits them.
Then u could atleast present it as your opinion rather than as a Fact or a Conclusion and also provide some Facts where in which u thought India was behaving like that.
The way u wrote made me angry.

[A Khan]

Pakistan likely to take up Patriot issue with US


By Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON, Feb 21: Pakistan is expected to take up with the US administration the expected sale of Patriot missile defence system to India, diplomatic sources told Dawn on Monday.

A US defence team began briefing Indian officials in New Delhi on Monday on the Patriot missiles. In Washington's diplomatic circles the visit is seen as a prelude to the sale of the advanced anti-ballistic missiles to India.

"It's a serious development and comes into conflict with the existing nuclear deterrence in the Subcontinent," said a South Asian defence expert familiar with the system.

Since the May 1998, when both India and Pakistan tested their nuclear devices, there existed an undeclared balance of power in the Subcontinent based on the fear that a clash between the two nuclear-armed neighbours could lead to the destruction of both. But the Patriots, which could bring down an incoming missile, could seriously tip the balance in India's favour, making Pakistan vulnerable.

"If the Patriots are delivered to India, it will seriously imbalance Pakistan's strategic capabilities and can trigger an arms race in the Subcontinent," said the South Asian defence expert.

"The Pakistanis will need to do some soul searching to determine what effect it will have on their strategic defence," said the expert. When asked what Pakistan could do to meet the threat posed by the expected sale of Patriot missiles to India, the expert said: "Pakistan will have to acquire counter-capability. This new development will tip the balance in India's favour unless it is redressed."

"They will take up the issue with the Americans," said the expert when asked what could be Pakistan's immediate response. Sources in Washington said that the Bush administration gave clearance for a classified technical presentation of the system to India as part of the 'Next Step in Strategic Partnership' agreement initiated by the two countries last year.

The sources said the decision to give a 'classified briefing' about the Patriot system to India was taken during the first phase of NSSP that concluded in October. The NSSP envisages cooperation in what is known as the 'quartet issues' - civilian space and civilian nuclear fields, hi-tech trade and missile defence.

The conclusion of the first phase of the NSSP was marked by the US partially easing export controls on supply of equipment and technology for India's space and nuclear programmes. The Patriot is a long-range, all altitude and all weather air defence system to counter tactical ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and advanced aircraft.

The missile's range is 70km and it can climb to an altitude greater than 24 km. The minimum flight time - time needed to arm a missile - is less than three seconds and maximum flight time - time needed to reach a target - is just three-and-half minutes. India will be the sixth country with which Washington has shared this technology after Israel, Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan.

http://www.dawn.com/2005/02/22/top5.htm

Looks like the pakistani government has noticed this issue and are worried about it. But i dont think that they will be able to make the US stop the sale, if the US has made its mind about the sale. But maybe Pakistan could use this to open up for the F-16 sale and other high-tech weapons...

[adsH]

hmm the article missed out Kuwait as one of the receiver.

[P.A.F]

what type of seeking system does the patriot run on. because if it is a heat seeker then pakistan should just put some flare and shaff system on the Ballistic missiles:D . Only joking. i don't think this patriot business is such a big deal. i'm sure pakistan has something up it's sleave.

[SABRE]

The answer is simple. USA needs both India & Pakistan just as it did with Israel & Egypt & the treatment will be the same. Like Egypt & Israel, US will have to treat both India & Pakistan equaly & give them equal balance of defence. Offcourse Israel has its own Defence R&D so it surpassed the Egyptions.

Final answer. Pakistan should get Patriots from US as well.

[P.A.F]

if we can't get it from the US then is it possible that we get the technology from saudi arabia and make our own???probably better then the PAC-3????

[gf0012-aust]

if we can't get it from the US then is it possible that we get the technology from saudi arabia and make our own???probably better then the PAC-3????

No disrespect to the Saudis, but a country that doesn't even have "sounding rockets" is hardly in a position to develop missile interceptors.

thats like comparing a capacity to make a corvette with a PAR equipped Cruiser and then expecting the corvette to be able to do the same job.

[adsH]

if we can't get it from the US then is it possible that we get the technology from saudi arabia and make our own???probably better then the PAC-3????
PAF Saudi Arabia does not poses the technology they even have US contractors to support whatever they have for there defense, that’s the reason why they have such a large defense budget. Saudis have not received the technology even if they did as a package I doubt the people who were sitting in on the Saudi side during “the Patriot for dummies: Lesson 1” weren’t Saudis.

[mysterious]

Pakistan warning on Patriot sale

Pakistan has warned the US that any sale of its Patriot anti-missile system to India could plunge the region into a new crisis.

Islamabad said on Wednesday it was opposed to any kind of arms race in South Asia and would like the region to be free of any systems like Patriot.


Foreign office spokesman, Masood Khan, said he did not believe India was on the verge of purchasing Patriot.

But he said Islamabad had warned the US a sale could erode regional deterrence.

Bus service
Mr Khan said Islamabad was aware India was exploring such a purchase.

Patriot missiles are used for defence against ballistic or cruise missiles, and gained fame during the first Gulf War when used by Israel against Iraqi Scuds.


Mr Khan said if India were allowed to purchase such a system, it would start an unintended arms race in South Asia and would harm the peace process.

The spokesman said so far India and Pakistan had made considerable efforts taking the peace process forward.

These included last week's agreement to start a bus service through the Line of Control that separates Indian and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir.

He said the procedure for issuing special travel permits for the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad service was being worked out. The service - being dubbed the biggest confidence-building measure in the troubled region - is scheduled to start from 7 April.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4292017.stm

That is true. Selling Patriots to India will only erode the balance that is now in place and accelerate the arms race, even risking the current thaw in relations.

PS: I see some members making multiple posts all the time when they can easily put whatever they have to say in a single post. Whats with that? Mods? :confused:

[srirangan]

Latest whispers in Delhi, US is bundling the PAC-2's and F-16's together. India could very well be forced to buy the F-16's if they wish to acquire the PAC's.

[A Khan]

Is it it likely that India will buy the PAC-2? i though they were going to push for the PAC-3 or arrows. Well if the buy both the PAC-2 and the F-16s then Russia most definitely will be worried. IF india can get that, then they would also be able to buy other US high tech weaponry, and russia might find one of its biggest defence export-market becomming much smaller...

[A Khan]

‘Pakistan capable of countering

India’s Patriot missile system’

ISLAMABAD: Expressing concern over reports that India is trying to purchase Patriot anti-missile system from the United States, Defence Secretary Hamid Nawaz said Pakistan was capable enough to counter India’s anti-missile system.

"Pakistan will use suitable ways to counter it. There are many strategic and statistical ways to cope with it. It would be better that India should avoid acquisition of such weapons or system," he said.

In an interview with Voice of America (VOA), he said Pakistan was not making any effort to indulge in arm race with India. The European countries and the US should maintain balance in conventional weapons. "Patriot missile defence system should not be provided to India. It is an attempt to neutralize our strategic surveillance and missile programme. It will disturb the balance of entire region," he said while commenting on reports that India was acquiring anti-missile defence system from the United Sates.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/

So what could these ways be? Adsh has given a detailed decription of the FT-2000. The other articles have mentioned that the PAC-2 might be able to stop the Ghauri missile and the other smaller Hatf-series missiles, but what about the Shaheen? as i remember they were more advanced then the Ghauri, so what are the "chances" of the PAC-3 stopping them?

[adsH]

No one is getting PAC-3 here. Pac-3 could effectively be utilized as a comprehensive Anti BM system, India is probably trying to haggle its way towards Pac-3 from Pac-2. and i am guessing Pac-2 are being offered so that India could set its mind at ease that they were provided (offered) a counter to the New PAF F-16 that would be Introduced into the system. I doubt The US would introduce Pac-3 in that region without introducing a counter on the Pakistani Side.

" Theater Missile Defense (TMD) architecture" is what the Pac-2 is. the Pac-3 is where all the new improvements have gone inn.

The Patriot PAC-3 is intended as a last-ditch "lower tier" defense against incoming missiles at an altitude of 20 kilometers (12.5 miles) or less. The US Army also is pursuing a "Theater High Altitude Air Defense (THAAD)" system as an "upper tier" defense to hit incoming missiles at higher altitudes, from 40 to 100 kilometers (25 to 62 miles).

http://www.vectorsite.net/twabm2.html



INterception of BM at low altitudes would still be deadly!!! Considering the BM has a clever AI to detect that its being intercepted. Hence the the THAAD upper tier project.

[P.A.F]

i read somewhere that musaraf isn't bothered about it either. so no sweat. he's got a so called 15 year plan to modernize pakistans military and he assures every pakistani that the military modernisation goals will be acheived.

[adsH]

i read somewhere that musaraf isn't bothered about it either. so no sweat. he's got a so called 15 year plan to modernize pakistans military and he assures every pakistani that the military modernisation goals will be acheived.

Uh no!! he is "bothered" very Cautious if i may add!, he knows the Difference it would make, he was merely stating that there are ways around an obstacle such as that, and Pakistan will get around them.

[Temoor_A]

I also saw Musharraf's interview and he did not looked worried and is more focusing on "15 year Military Modernization Plan".

The PAC-2 is being offered to India and US has not indicated on sale of PAC-3 system yet.

PAC-2 along with Green Pine Radar system, I think is capable of countering any Fighter plane at high-altitude levels and intercepting Missiles ranging from M-11 (200 km) to Ghauri 1 (1100 km) from Pakistan. But Ghauri II and Shaheen II might have the slightest chance of escaping interception.

But it will be a big moral boost for India and I personally think that US should not have offered that weapon. Plus we can also expect India to open research on this new technology as soon as it gets it.

Contrary to this, China needs to do something and help Pakistan but I wonder about how long will it take!

[sobank]

as a threat well there is not much to it. as someone said earlier that a scud went through many us batteries and got straight to Riad. i know a lot of people gonna say that it is battle proven but sincerely i dont trust it since it went only against scuds.

if you see the map of the countries than you will realize it that they gonna need lots and lots of pacs to cover it. so i believe that the system is going to be used as military infrastructure defence and not to stop any missile that crosses the border. and then PAF can easily get anti pac system and also work with china to improve it.

But again indians are not stupid they most probably want the system to upgrade their know how.

[indianguy4u]

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[indianguy4u]

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[gf0012-aust]

hi guy one more indian has joined the fray .lets have some fun guy at pakistan's expense hahaha!!!.well talking about patriot sys & arrogant ***** saying that they dont care any less then go to hell ,b'coz it will change the whole dynamics of asia due to its consequences on indo-china startegic balance.well may ***** might think we are interested to kick ur arse u r wrong this is to kick chinyminy arse u got it & thats the reason US of A is ready to talk & may be give TOT to india:D :D :D :D

This is an international forum where we discuss issues at a technical level - not at a disparaging level. Please learn to make comments that are appropriate to the forums rules of posting etiquette in future.

[corsair7772]

I dont think the PAC-3 system has much of a chance against ballistic missiles. No ABM system does as yet , and yes im talking about the Arrow system too. Even the older chinese missiles have the capability of achieving speeds of upto Mach 13~15. Its like trying to stop a rock someone has thrown at you with another rock. Which is a small chance even if ur rock has a couple of mini supercomputers on it. ABM technology is pretty hard to come by and id say that one the Arrow has a pretty good ABM capability for now but even then its best chance is to shoot down scuds and missiles designed in the 80 at best.

But the PAC-3 would make a near invincible SAM system and would be best at that but only partially capable of ABM operations. I cant pretend to have all the info on this but heres a fact: Ballistic missiles travel at speeds six times that of a bullet from a high velocity sniper rifle. Still worried abt the PAC-3?