Indian Air Force To Buy 126 Multi-Role Planes

[yasin_khan]

The Indian government has given the air force a green light to purchase 126 multi-role aircraft, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi said Feb. 7.

?At the moment, the government has cleared the purchase of 126 aircraft. We are taking information from four countries, the United States, France, Sweden and Russia,? Tyagi told reporters on the fringes of an aero-space seminar. ?We are seeking information (on various aircraft). It could be single engine or twin engine (jets). The field is right open.?

?Once we get the information, we will go ahead and seek requests for proposals. We will study those proposals and carry out a technical evaluation .... Then we will do commercial negotiations,? Tyagi said.
All the aircraft would be bought from a single manufacturer, he said, adding,? We cannot buy half from one and half from another because it increases our difficulties.?

France?s Dassault and U.S. giant Lockheed have long been considered frontrunners to upgrade the Indian air force.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has about 1,500 aircraft, but has lost a number jets, particularly Russian-made MiG-21s, which have been nicknamed ?flying coffins? in India.

Tyagi said there was no fixed timeframe for the acquisitions but, ?as chief of air staff, I want it today.?

He refused to put a price on the acquisitions.

?It?s too early because each aircraft comes with a lot of systems, weapons, so I cannot even hazard a guess,? he said.

The seminar precedes India?s annual air show which opens in Bangalore on Feb. 9. Lockheed Martin is showcasing F-16 fighters alongside Russia?s Sukhois, MiG-29 and MiG-21 jets and Dassault?s Mirage 2000.

The air chief said India?s home-grown Light Combat Aircraft, whose development has been delayed by a decade due to US sanctions and technical difficulties, would also be flying with the IAF soon.

Last year, New Delhi decided to buy 66-advanced jet trainers from Britain in a deal worth more than a billion dollars which had been under negotiation since the 1980s.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=639391&C=asiapac

These type of purchasements will unbalance the situation in South Asia.And it will change the whle enviroment.

[XEROX]

these type of purchasements will unbalance the situation in South Asia.And it will change the whle enviroment.

You will find that it has been "un-balanced" for quite a time now, and will be for a long time aswell.

IAF needs the 126 a/c to replace the dinasours in the inventory, personally i would love the rafaele or maybe even the F-16, but that aint happening, it will probably be the Mirage

btw does anyone have images of HALs Combat Air Trainer (CAT):coffee

[Swaroop]

I feel that F-16 Should NOT be allowed a place in the IAF!!!

First of all, we have had enough accidents flying single engine aircraft such as the MiG 21, 23, 27. and recently even Mirage2000s crashed :(

so, India must buy a two engined aircraft, such as the F-15E strike eagle, or, the Rafale or the best option , MiG-29MRC!!!!!!!!!!!!

[XEROX]

Well i think im right in asuming the F-16 has one of the best safty and maintenance records, correct me if im wrong

and regarding the twin engined ac, the next IAF trainers will be twin engined !!??!!:coffee

[adsH]

Well i think im right to say the F-16 has one of the best safty and maintenace records, correct me if im wrong

and regarding the twin engined ac, the next IAF trainers will be twin engined:coffee

F-16 is a brilliant all-rounder, But it can also sweep low to Russian Standards, if its not taken care off. If PAF can maintain Low Attrition Rate within their given Budget, then I see no reason why IAF cannot do the Same, Iaf Problem is similar to what Luftwaffe suffered during its time with the Star fighter. IAF needs a radical Change in its Maintenance Doctrine. And then it can Purchase anything and Keep it flying through the Course of Time. I personally think the Winner is Mirage since it would be the Lowest Cost and Cost effective Purchase, while upgrading the Existing Mirages in the Package too.

[XEROX]

I personally think the Winner is Mirage since it would be the Lowest Cost and Cost effective Purchase

IAF is happy with the mirage because it is reliable and also the above mentioned, personally I think they are bartering for some technologies which is on the Rafael

[ajay_ijn]

does anyone have images of HALs Combat Air Trainer (CAT)
I think that is still in conceptual stages.
It is the replacement of Hawk AJT.

India is considering the purchase of F-16 too.
I don't know suddenly where from Gripen popped up in to the list.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1015679.cms

Sonic Boom: India makes a pitch for F-16s

WASHINGTON: India's decision to cast a wide procurement net for fighter planes to include the US-made F-16s has sent a sonic boom through defence aviation circles given the fighter jet's touchstone status in neighbouring Pakistan.

New Delhi's hand in this matter was disclosed on the margins of the Aero-India show in Bangalore with Air Force Chief S P Tyagi revealing the IAF has sought information from four foreign aircraft makers, including F-16 maker Lockheed Martin, in its bid buy 126 new jets over the next four to five years.

The other producers include makers of the Swedish SAAB (Grippen), Russian MiG-29 M2 (MiG RAC) and French Mirage 2000-5 (Dassault). The IAF has Russian, French and British fighter jets in its 1500-plane inventory. Buying the F-16 will be a first.




Although the IAF move of calling for a "Request For Information" (RFI in defence procurement parlance) is just the initial step in a long (longest, in India's case) drawn out process, the news travelled at Mach speed through aviation circles.

"Consideration of Lockheed Martin would have been unthinkable just four years ago, when the US maintained military sanctions against New Delhi following India's May 1998 nuclear tests. But sanctions were phased out starting in late 2001, and bilateral ties have since flourished," the forum F-16.net reported, within hours of Tyagi's remarks.

Lockheed Martin executives have already made an initial pitch and the sale will be a shoo-in if India can pony up the money (up to $ 25 million apiece amounting to a tidy $ 3 billion over five years). The jet will also need to be integrated into an air force whose cutting edge is Sukhois, Mirages, Jaguars and MiGs, besides the nascent LCA Tejas.

Defence circles say it is rare for an air force to have such a wide inventory, especially since some of the suppliers (such as Lockheed Martin and Dassault) are sales rivals. But a few countries, notably Greece, Egypt and Taiwan, have a mix of the rival aircraft.

New Delhi's eyeing of F-16s is all the more curious considering the fighter jet constitutes a core item in neighbouring Pakistan's defence preparedness, and indeed in its national psyche.

Pakistan claims to have been traumatized by the alleged US perfidy in reneging on a contract to supply around 70 F-16s in the late 1980s. US officials say the planes were held up because of congressional laws that required Pakistan not to go nuclear to get US aid and that Islamabad crossed the line in the sand, fully aware of the consequences.

Washington has since squared its accounts with Islamabad by returning (in cash and goods) the money Pakistan had advanced towards the purchase. But the episode has scarred Islamabad and its military rulers still make periodic pleas to the US for F-16s.

The Pakistan Air Force had acquired 40 F-16s in the late 1980s, but by 1998 eight of them were deemed attrited and only 32 were believed to be in service.

The mere thought of India acquiring F-16s could be a devastating blow to Pakistan. At the same time, the IAF's move could also open the door for Washington to lift its curbs on resuming supplies to Pakistan.

In either or both cases, the multi-billion dollar bill involved in the transaction will be a huge burden on the national exchequer.

The F-16 is also known as the Viper and is acknowledged by some as the finest fighter jet in the world. It is not an entirely unfamiliar item to India.

Some Indian test pilots have flown it during their visits to the United States (to check for LCA systems), but it was not until the last couple of years that Indian pilots came face to face with it in exercises with the air forces of Singapore and Israel, both of which field F-16s.

[XEROX]

I think that is still in conceptual stages.

yeah i know, but they have a mock up at aero india, it would be intresting to see,

[adsH]

i Don't get it the Indian Media First Plays down the Capability of the F-16 when they talk about it from the PAF prospective but then Suddenly the F-16 becomes the Finest when it come down to IAF Procuring them. Can they at least Make there Minds up.

I think this is a trap, what they are trying to do here is Prevent PAF from Procuring SAAB Grippens and F-16 by Tying up Saab and Lockheed in a Bid Down loop that would last for a better part of a quarter of a century. I don't think Lockheed nor Saab are going to allow PAF to Move on to French Options such as Rafael (The AC). If PAf makes the Move then Lockheed can Kiss Good Bye there Market Dominance on PAF and Various other i.e. RSAF Forces and for what a One in a million chance that IAF may choose there AC after 20 years of evaluation even when IAFs Procurement Pattern would suggest Mirages as the Cheapest Option and Cost effective option for them. Its Just all a front for the Press Everyone Knows PAF is about to Sign a deal with Lockheed and is ready to Purchase SAAB Grippens, so suddenly IAF Shouts out for New bids trying to Lure Developers in the 126 Fighter Deal.

Besides you can't win War just with Technology PAF like other Forces Utilizes Blend of Training Doctrine and Technology, Its the way things work The AC is small part of the Defense, Paying too much attention on toys rather then Doctrine is a fatal error.

[ajay_ijn]

Besides you can't win War just with Technology PAF like other Forces Utilizes Blend of Training Doctrine and Technology, Its the way things work The AC is small part of the Defense, Paying too much attention on toys rather then Doctrine is a fatal error.

Your Right,
Army and Navy Changed its doctrines accrding to the situations but Air-Force is yet to make any decision.
Even performance in conflicts must be considered.
Mirage-2000 was a big hit during Kargil War,IAF Just loves Mirages so they did want to buy them.
Its Just all a front for the Press Everyone Knows PAF is about to Sign a deal with Lockheed and is ready to Purchase SAAB
Sweden refused to sell any weapons to pakistan during the Perverz visit to sweden last year in july.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/07pak.htm
so suddenly IAF Shouts out for New bids trying to Lure Developers in the 126 Fighter Deal.
Actually if IAF Gets F-16 then automatically Pakistan will get them too.

[adsH]

Your Right,

Actually if IAF Gets F-16 then automatically Pakistan will get them too.


It wouldn't make PAF a difference If IAF Purchases the Same F-16, But it would Irk IAF planners since PAF would Have the Same Jet in service as a second line Area Defense fighter, IAF is going to form its Backbone with these 126 fighters, IAF will definitely Request Denial of F-16 to PAF. Which may or may not come depending on the changing strategic situation for the US in that region.

[adsH]

Sweden Foriegn minister to sell any weapons to pakistan during the Perverz visit to sweden last year in july.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/07pak.htm




Its an Old news, the last time I had heard SAAB was willing and the Parliamentary comity that decides clearance had decided to sell the weapon system. There has been no official request yet for the AC. the defense minister was following the rules to the letter at that time since there was no request, and the Parliament had not given out an approval. the Swedes are dying to sell Grippens, and if they land the PAF deal they can sure as hell count the Saudi's in too. Saudis have a Bulk requirement.


Do you honestly believe that if a President of a nation makes an official State visit to a Country for the First time! The Host Country would slap him out right on his blank face. Do you honestly believe that? Look at the pattern Saab has kept all the Negotiations secret i.e. Away from the press. And refusing a request made by a dignitary on an official state visit is un-heard off (Protocols are followed Notifications are private). Not even Russia would attempt such a thing with Pakistan. This Is a Political Language its very confusing to people his statement was quoted but it indicated a different response, the Comments are open ended so anyone can make whatever they want to make out of it.

If I remember correctly Musharaf only indicated that he was going to purchase the Saab AEW&C, and he said they were interested in Grippens. The Minister was quoted saying "There is no question of selling them weapons or anything directly related to weapons," First off he acknowledges the AEW&C is not a weapon as its out in the open that Pakistan will purchase the System. Before that he Sweeps lower to cover his back and acknowledges that there are no requests for Grippens, so you see Political language is dissimilar to our language and can be completely misunderstood if Extracts are taken out of the whole text.

[Aussie Digger]

Yep, supplying weapons to both sides in a difficult "strategic" situation doesn't pose any great problems for the US. They have sold F-16's to both Turkey and Greece in the past...

[kashifshahzad]

:coffee I think Indai has already 1500 fighter planes.Why should India wants to manufacture its own planes like Pakistan(I know they are not multirole fighter but they are intercepters )they can do well onthe battle ground:coffee

[cerilchan]

yes can buy f16d/c series of block 50 series, but they must chose ge engine f110, because pw100-229 and pw100-220 are problem engine.and they have check into the maintenance problem.

[aaaditya]

in an interview today in ndtv news the indian airchief stated the iaf will sign a deal with hal for purchasing a first batch of 40 lca's and an option for (20 more) in a deal worth rs4000crores(that is each lca will cost 22.8 million us dollars)the weaponisation alogrithms are ready for the lca and the weapons testing will begin this year.
british aerospace has offered india ef2000 typhoon with full technology transfer.
snecma has claimed that it is assisting india in the javeri programme.
mbda has stated that it will make india a hub for its missile and software outsourcing .it has also stated that india is considering mbda missiles for the bangalore class of warships and that the missiles have also been offered for the iaf.
a lot is information is filtering out this aeroindia.
tommorow at 8.30pm ist there is a documentary on the aeroindia 2005 with discussions on all the related news on the ndtv looking eagerly for ward to any titbits from that source.:D

[ajay_ijn]

I think Indai has already 1500 fighter planes
Nope,India has 683+ Fighters.Others are Trainers,Helo's,Transport Planes.
They Comprise of
Air Superiorty/Multirole:
3 Mig-29 Sqns
3 Mirage-2000 sqns
3 Su-30MKI sqns
4 Mig-21 Bison sqns
6 Mig-21 Bis sqns

Ground Attack:
6 Mig-27 sqns
3 Mig-23BN sqns
4 Mig-21 M/MF
6 Jaguar IS Sqns

Second Line:
1 Canberra sqn
1 Mig-23MF sqn
1 Mig-25R sqn
5 Mig-21FL sqns

[ajay_ijn]

UK lobbying for selling Eurofighter to IAF
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/feb022005/i7.asp

The British government is “pushing hard” for India to purchase the Eurofighter for the IAF, a visiting Indian MP has revealed.

Congress MP Jyotiraditya Scindia, who is co-chair of a delegation of cross-party MPs and businessmen from the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) currently visiting London, told Deccan Herald that the issue of selling the Eurofighter, developed jointly by the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, was raised by British Defence Procurement Minister Lord Bach last Monday.

Other MPs who were received by Lord Bach include Shiv Sena’s Suresh Prabhu, BJP’s Ananth Kumar, Anand Sharma and Ajay Maken of Congress, Samajwadi’s Akilesh Yadav and Rajya Sabha MP Lalit Puri.

India recently signed a $1 billion deal to purchase 66 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) aircraft from the UK and the idea of future defence deals involving other fighter aircraft has now been raised by British officials and defence exporters in London.
“As you know the AJT deal has been finalised and that’s close to a billion dollar deal for 66 jets, but there’s also the issue of upgrading six squadrons of MiG 21s and the UK government is pushing hard for the Eurofighter,” Mr Scindia told Deccan Herald in an exclusive interview.

This is the most unlikely to happen (India Buying EF)
But India is giving surprises these days by considering F-16.

Now Pakistan Says that it has no problem if India gets F-16 but they must too get F-16.


'Pak, India should both get F-16 jets'

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=41869


Washington, February 12: Pakistan would not object to India buying American-made F-16s if Islamabad is also permitted to acquire the sophisticated fighter jets, Pakistan's ambassador to Washington said on Friday.
"As long as we are on the list for F-16s, it's all right if India gets them," Ambassador Jehangir Karamat told Reuters.

"We wouldn't have any problem because we have no problem with India buying defense equipment worldwide. We are no longer in an arms race with them," he said of Pakistan's South Asian nuclear rival. The comments seemed designed to open new political possibilities for advancing Pakistan's stalled 15-year quest for the F-16 fighters and to strike a contrast with India, which has opposed the sale to Islamabad.



Sounds Funny Both countries will get same Fighter Plane and also in large numbers and also in front line Positions.
But It would vastly depend of which versions India and Pakistan would get.

[XEROX]

Guys, F-1616E/F (block 60) is about 50-55 million while the F-1616C/D (block 50/52) is ??

[adsH]

Guys, F-1616E/F (block 60) is about 50-55 million while the F-1616C/D (block 50/52) is ??





Establishing a Logistical foot print for the Lockheed jets would be too pricy would take years, while the French mirages would complement the Numbers by adding extra Squadron as they are inducted. F-16 is not a good option, As i have said Pakistan would have no problem with the Deal since Pakistan Is more concerned with warfare and doctrine not the equipment as equipment itself is a mere tool to achieve the intended goal. BAE systems Equipment would be alot more suited since Bae has a large presence, but Euro fighter is too pricey!!. F-16 Block 60 is again out of the question its too pricy for a large order such as this. Remember Unit price is a fraction of the Cost, that will be incurred during the product lifetime.

[P.A.F]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/02/13/int5.htm

US firm, India may co-produce F-16s

By Our Correspondent
WASHINGTON, Feb 12: The biggest US defence company, Lockheed Martin Corp., is negotiating a deal with New Delhi that may allow joint production of the F-16 aircraft in India, company officials said.

Lockheed Martin is also prepared to share the sensitive technology behind the P-3 Orion naval aircraft with India, the officials added.

On Thursday, the company announced winning export licenses to sell P-3C Orion naval surveillance aircraft and C-130J military transport planes to India.

Earlier this week, India said it may also buy 125 single crew F-16 fighter jets from Lockheed Martin. The jets, also known as the Fighting Falcons, will be inducted as front-line fighters in the Indian Air Force.

Dennys Plessas, regional vice president of Lockheed Martin, told reporters that if India buys those jets the company would be a reliable supplier of spares and technology, and that the United States was keen to allow joint production of the F-16 in India.

India wants state-run aircraft-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to produce its future needs for spares.

On Wednesday, Lockheed Martin officials in the US said the company would also reveal the sensitive technology behind the P-3C Orion naval aircraft to Hindustan Aeronautics. If finalized this will be the first such arrangement between the US and India.

Lockheed Martin is also negotiating an arrangement for sourcing components and training with Hindustan Aeronautics so that they may have a service team ready when the deal comes through.

The US government has granted export licenses to Lockheed Martin for selling P-3 Orion and C-130J aircraft to India after New Delhi urged Washington to allow the sale of the aircraft to the Indian military.
__________________________________________________ _______________

it's a shame that pakistan has to beg it's ass of for these jets while india asks once and gets once.

[ajay_ijn]

The major problem with buying F-16 would be the threat of sanctions.

If India produce spares then would sanctions would be a problem.


Lockheed Martin is also prepared to share the sensitive technology behind the P-3 Orion naval aircraft with India, the officials added.

I don't why they want to give India such sensitive tech though it is the first time India trying procure so much from Lockheed.

C-130??
And that too in small numbers (8 i think) ,Instead must have buyed more number of IL-76.

What about Patriot??
Nothing has been said about that.

[adsH]

Moscow wouldn't be too happy about these developments its loosing China and now India!! http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif

[ajay_ijn]

Moscow wouldn't be too happy about these developments its loosing China and now India!!


I didn't get u,China still buys most of its big weapons from Russia.
And India too.
Though India also buys much from western countries,it never neglects its most reliable military partner.
The recent Indo-Russia Big Deals are the proof for that.

About the 125 AC Deal,all Russia got to offer is Mig-29m2,IAF has bad experience with its Mig-29 in service especially with its engines.
I agree the problems are solved but still Mig-29 cannot be Used for Big Strike Roles unlike Mirage-2000 or F-16.

[adsH]

I didn't get u,China still buys most of its big weapons from Russia.
And India too.
Though India also buys much from western countries,it never neglects its most reliable military partner.
The recent Indo-Russia Big Deals are the proof for that.

About the 125 AC Deal,all Russia got to offer is Mig-29m2,IAF has bad experience with its Mig-29 in service especially with its engines.
I agree the problems are solved but still Mig-29 cannot be Used for Big Strike Roles unlike Mirage-2000 or F-16.


First off China is growing iNcreasingly independent as soon as French and the European release Arms embargo China would swap suppliers.

As far as it goes Russia would never appreciate American Weapon systems for India, since these are all big ticket weapons and much more superior in quality. Its indicating India’s intent or willingness to go western on its inventory. Regardless of the "Big Deals" Russia sees India as it primary Arms export market and it would not appreciate large western specially US Arms deals.

[XEROX]

Guys, it seems now that Boeing have entered the frey, offering the F-18

Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=ao0J2FhKlZyc&refer=asia)

:)

[ajay_ijn]

What is this happening,Boeing offering F-18's comes as a real surprise however they would need the permission of congress.
Already the lockheed signed agreement for tech transfer of P-3 to HAL.
Other than P-3 ,Lockheed offers E-2C Hawkeye,C-130 Hercules and the classic F-16 fighter.
While Boeing offers C-17,Ch-47 Chinook and now the F-18.


As far as it goes Russia would never appreciate American Weapon systems for India, since these are all big ticket weapons and much more superior in quality. Its indicating India’s intent or willingness to go western on its inventory. Regardless of the "Big Deals" Russia sees India as it primary Arms export market and it would not appreciate large western specially US Arms deals.

I agree Russia never likes US arms deals,But right from Indian Independence India did depend much on western nations for Weapons.
India will still reserve most of its buying capability for Russia.
Afterall Indian 70% of weapons are Russian.

What surprising is India getting so many offers for its 125 plane deal.
Even Britian is pushing hard for EuroFighter Typhoon.
If we think in all ways its Mirage-2000V would be ideal the ideal option.

[ajay_ijn]

Suprising News.
India's military hungry for more
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GB16Df06.html
NEW DELHI - Indian defense officials have laid out a request for a huge increase in spending on arms to New Delhi, most of which will be used to purchase state-of-the-art weaponry from suppliers around the world. In a couple of weeks, the national budget will be presented by the ruling United Progressive Alliance, headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and while there is intense lobbying from representatives of various sectors to incorporate their demands, attention has focused on the over 40% hike in defense outlay that has been demanded by the India's defense forces, which comes in the wake of an unprecedented 22% increase last year.

Last year, the budget set apart the biggest-ever allocation to defense - the equivalent of US$15 billion for 2004-05. This represented 2.5% of India's gross domestic product, lower than China (6%) and Pakistan (5.5%), though in absolute terms Pakistan spent $4 billion last year, which was an increase of 20% over 2003-04.

The Indian defense community's wish list is long, which they feel is necessary to modernize the country's armed forces. These include a proposal to purchase F-16 fighter jets, Scorpene submarines and long-range rocket systems. The proposal to buy 126 F-16s - at $25 million each over five years - will itself cost the exchequer $3 billion. When this is added to the payments being made for the expensive equipment already purchased, the defense budget takes on huge proportions.

The increased defense spending includes more than $7 billion to purchase weapons systems and to implement the intermediate-range Agni ballistic missile units, capable of delivering nuclear warheads. India last year signed a $1.5 billion agreement with BAE Systems Plc, Europe's biggest weapons maker, for 66 Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer aircraft as part of its plan to modernize its air force.

Last year, the country also inked a multimillion-dollar deal with Russia to acquire an aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov. India has also agreed to buy three Phalcon airborne early-warning radar systems from Israel valued at $1 billion. Of the 3,414 tanks in the Indian army's possession, 1,200 are obsolete, while 700 of them are vintage Russian T-55s. India has been introducing T-90s phase-by-phase and it is estimated that almost $8 billion will be set apart for a project to increase the firepower of the infantry.

It is estimated that Israel's defense industry sold arms and munitions to India valued at $2.7 billion in 2003, constituting about 30% of its total orders, and offered more at Aero India, a five-day international aerospace and defense exhibition that ended this Sunday in the Indian city of Bangalore. It has been reported that at Aero India, touted as the largest show of its kind in South Asia, deals worth more than $1.2 billion were been signed between Indian and foreign aerospace firms. The deals ranged from aircraft purchases by Indian budget carriers from Airbus and Boeing to the joint manufacture of missiles and engine parts. India's air force is seeking government approval for 126 so-called "multi-role" combat aircraft to replace aging Russian MiGs, India's Air Chief Marshal Satish Tyagi said in Bangalore. Boeing has offered to sell its F-18 jets, while Maryland-based Lockheed Martin has offered its F-16 fighter as part of the deal.

There is one school of thought in India that insists that there is a requirement for such a huge augmentation and modernization of the Indian armed forces. Finance Minister P Chidambaram, while presenting last year's budget, said that the enormous hike in the defense-budget allocation was born out of the "government's determination to eliminate all delays in modernizing the defense forces. Having regard to the trend of defense capital expenditure in recent years, it has become necessary to make a higher allocation this year; 60% of the increase will be utilized for modernization." Some defense analysts say that the country should allocate such a huge portion as the bulk of the defense budget is revenue expenditure (salaries, wages) given the huge size of the Indian army, navy and air force.

Predictably, Pakistan is miffed at India's proposals to hike defense spending. Islamabad has repeatedly warned that India's increased defense spending was a "cause for concern". "This would wittingly or unwittingly accelerate the arms race between the two countries, which we could have avoided because both India and Pakistan need massive resources for poverty alleviation, education, health and for the social sector and creating new jobs," Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan said in the recent past. Khan also said that Pakistan had increased its own defense spending, though at a smaller rate than India, and would seek to maintain the "competitive edge of our strategic and conventional capabilities".

The other school of thought is that India's defense spending and war preparedness should take into consideration the threat of actual war in the foreseeable future, short, medium and long term, with greater cause for concern being terrorist attacks, as well as internal insurgencies, such as Naxalism, bad governance, caste and feudal wars and communal violence. This, in turn, should lead to India focusing more on getting its intelligence-gathering infrastructure, external and internal intelligence agencies and paramilitary forces right, rather than building on conventional weapons of war. Given the current state of superiority of India's armed forces over Pakistan, the country from which the threat perception is the highest, there is no requirement for such a massive drive. Further, given the fact that both India and Pakistan are nuclear-weapon states, it is unlikely that a full-scale high-intensity war lasting for weeks will ever happen, making the case for having such a huge cache of arms as well as armed forces redundant.

As far as India's other powerful neighbor, China, is concerned, it is believed that the exponential growth of business relations between the two countries is an effective deterrent, but in any case it would be impossible for India ever to match China's military strength. But business is seen as a bridge to peaceful relations. Sino-Indian bilateral trade has set a record, touching $13.6 billion in 2004, up by 79% over the total trade volume of 2003. India enjoyed a comfortable trade surplus of $1.75 billion, according to Chinese customs statistics. If growth remains at current levels, India-China trade could cross $17 billion by the end of 2004-05. In contrast, India's trade with the United States - its largest trading partner - has grown by just over 23% in April-August 2004. Indeed, there is an increasing comfort level, with India discounting Chinese influence in Nepal after the royal coup there on February 1 and the dismissal of the democratically elected government.

Economists such as Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen have repeatedly stressed that the rising military expenditure imposes substantial opportunity costs on government priorities such as health and education. According to defense analyst K Subhramanyam, "Modernizing the armed forces does not necessarily mean just adding inventories of the latest hardware ... Unplanned acquisition of hardware without appropriate defense planning based on sound assessment of threat may lead to large-scale avoidable expenditure."

A comment in The Times of India reads: "New Delhi needs to realize that engaging in a pointless arms race with Pakistan serves little purpose. So long as Pakistan remains under authoritarian rule, its defense budget will remain disproportionately high. But that does not mean India needs to match every Ghauri [type of ballistic missile] with an Agni. India enjoys a considerable edge over Pakistan by dint of the sheer size of its armed forces ... As for China, New Delhi is much better off trying to match Beijing's economic growth than its military might. However, the best argument for pulling out of an arms race is that social development and economic growth are the best defense for any nation."

While few would claim that India's armed forces should not be modernized, it is important to pace the process in a way that there is a definite but sure increment without a disproportionate chunk of government funds being siphoned away from equally important needs - the social sector, which affects the welfare of people the most.

40% Hike Which means Indian Military Budget would be staggering 23 Billion Dollars approx.
On source Suggests that 17% which means Budget would be at 20 Billion Dollars
Last year India hiked 22% but still is 2.5% of GDP.
I suggest most of new Money must be Spent on Missile Defence.
India Badly needs Missile Defence Systems.
The only development in Missile defence from 7 years was buying two Greenpine Early Warning Radars from Israel.

It would be possible to justify the 20 Billion Dollar Budget becoz Indias Shopping list is very Big.
They Immediately have to sign two big deals,125 AC Deal and the Scorpene.

Yet to be procured are the Missile Defence Systems,Nuclear Submarine,new Warships and also number of other upgrades.

Army's MBT Fleet is in not such good situation,Delay in T-72 Upgrade,Arjun Problems and have to immediately retire the old T-55 and Viickers MBT.

[adsH]

A comment in The Times of India reads: "New Delhi needs to realize that engaging in a pointless arms race with Pakistan serves little purpose. So long as Pakistan remains under authoritarian rule, its defense budget will remain disproportionately high. But that does not mean India needs to match every Ghauri [type of ballistic missile] with an Agni. India enjoys a considerable edge over Pakistan by dint of the sheer size of its armed forces

If we’ve learned anything from History is that Size hardly ever Matter when faced with a tactically sound Foe. Caesar defeated the adversary at Gaul even when faced with the Odd of being out numbered 5:1. There is a reason why Indian Armed forces feel they need expansion. They aren't Sound when it comes to effectiveness in conflicts there fore they need sheer numbers to over whelm the adversary. If you look at the Indian Armed forces they out number Pakistan in terms of resources and overall strength yet they choose to increase there strength in number for the short term and in terms of quality over long-term. China will never openly go to war with India since they love themselves too much.



The point being Caesar was an excellent Military Leader he knew his forces, he knew there weakness numbers. And he used the quality of his forces and logistical availability to his advantage. The Roman Armies were sound in engineering, communication; C&C etc. these things are still relevant to modern-day war fare. That’s the reason why many top Military School still study this particular War strategy in detail.

[indianguy4u]

i cannot understand why we are buying it and for so much amt . its mind bogling b'coz 140 su-30mki cost us just more than 3.5 billion $ then why such a premium on those AC which is inferior to our su-30. well reason given is that AF want to replace those MIGS which r not being upgraded to bisons but it is ridicoulous amt really if we invest 1-1.25 billion$ in our LCA in collabroration with isreal we can develope a potent AC in its class as well cost appro. 20 million apecie .instead what shitless thing we do buy more , when r the ppl in power (bureacracts) understand we have to stand up on our legs & break our shackles of purchasing ready made stuffs

[aaaditya]

india needs to replace 400+mig21's and 200+mig23's immediately and jaguars(100+in the near future) india wants to buy western aircraft because even though they are expensive they have lower operating cost and an excellent safety record(mirage2000 being a single engine aircraft has fewer crashes than mig29 which is a twin engine aircraft and that too mainly due to the carelessness of the technical crews) also mirage2000 has shown excellent performance during the kargil which realy impressed the air force top brass.by the way the airforce earlier rejected the mirage 2000-5 in favour of the su-30 due to its high cost\unit however after the kargil war they became aware of the excellent capabilities of this aircraft(besides the western aircraft except for gripen are all combat proven ,the mig29 though combat proven is inferior in some aspects to the mirage 2000-5).:coffee :D

[highsea]

Does anyone know the status of the tender? Last month it was reported to be off the table.
MoF denial for more funds puts aircraft deal on hold

HUMA SIDDIQUI
Posted online: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 at 0000 hours IST

NEW DELHI, FEB 22: The defence ministry has put on hold its plan to purchase 126 fighter aircraft after the finance ministry turned down its request of 40% additional expenditure for defence purchases.

This has come as a surprise to many in defence circles as defence minister Pranab Mukherjee had at the recently concluded Aero India in Bangalore talked about the Request for Proposal (RFP) that had gone to Russia for the modern version of MiG-29s, Dassault Mirage-2000, Lockheed Martin F-16s from US and SAAB Gripen from Sweden.

India requires the new aircraft to replace its ageing Mig 21 bis, which are gradually being withdrawn from the IAF. Conceived as part of a general decrease in the IAF fighter fleet, from 39 squadrons to 30, withdrawal of older MiG types has already begun. In case the Budget outlay is raised by 18-20% a chunk of this hike will go for financing the salary increase of armed forces officers after the implementation of Ajai Vikram Singh report, sources in the government told FE.

Sources pointed out that the purchase of the fighters is likely to be delayed beyond two years as the order for French ‘Scorpene’ submarines for the Indian Navy, pending for over four years, needs to be awarded on urgent basis.

The leasing of Akula class nuclear-powered submarine from Russia would also be out on hold. This submarines was to be leased for 10 years. The submarine, which belongs to Russia’s most advanced Akula-II class costs $1.7 billion.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=83360

[vicky007]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1062590.cms


NEW DELHI: In a dramatic decision, the United States on Friday night offered the co-production of F-18 fighter jets to India.

This follows the US decision to sell a number of F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan. Indian would be licensed by the United States to produce at least six times the number of planes that would have been sold to Pakistan.

The F-18 Hornets is a two-engined long-range tactical strike aircraft and is superior to the F-16. In the United States, the F-18 is the mainstay of the US Naval airpower. The F-18 can cover several thousand miles for bombing operations and in terms of speed and manoeuvrability; it is far superior to the F-16.

In another decision, the United States has agreed to help India's civilian nuclear programme with the possible sale of nuclear reactors that would be used to generate electricity.

The nuclear energy was one of the major subjects that were discussed between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice during her recent visit to New Delhi. Although Pentagon has not make known the parameters for sale of nuclear technology to India, informed sources said that it will be worked out shortly.

[kilo_4que]

is there any evidence of this via international sources such as AFM, Janes or news from cnn, mbc, bbc ...

[WebMaster]

Not that I know of. Only Times of India is reporting this news... true or not, it is unlikely that India will go for this offer.

[Red aRRow]

I think its just the Indian press trying to calm the public.

[SABRE]

This is getting realy creepy & odd. When Pakistan tried to get Gripens, Indian media reported that USA has offered India joint production of F-16s now when USA is selling Pakistan F-16s, Indian media is reporting joint production on F-18s with India.

F-18s are superioir AirCrafts, I doubt USA will offer its production to any country that is not the user of the product (e.g: Turkey) . It is also highly unlikely that USA will pass a technology to country that is close to Russia. Selling F-18s could still be relavent.

[adsH]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1062590.cms


NEW DELHI: The F-18 Hornets is a two-engined long-range tactical strike aircraft and is superior to the F-16.

Ignorance!! the F-16 belongs to a different Class of AC you can't compare Apples and Oranges , you can develop a likeing for one of them or possibly both, depends on you nutritional requirements.

It would be interesting to see India Co-produce this Weapon system, it would certainly put allot of strain on IAF's already Strained Budget and Resources allocated for maintenance.

[avj]

india's not making its decision in a hurry in any case- it took 18 years for the hawks

[adsH]

india's not making its decision in a hurry in any case- it took 18 years for the hawks

Point being they wont buy these these are empty Offers from the US to support there notion of Equality with allies. INda Has Superior AC of the same class and they didn't come cheap the SU series

[avj]

anybody know the delivery schedules of the F-16s to pakistan? Are these new aircraft?

[WebMaster]

And now this:

India ; US offers co-production of F-18 and nuclear technology to India:
http://www.keralanext.com/news/indexread.asp?id=162233

Since no other news outlet is reporting this but Times of India, I don't know what to say.

[mysterious]

I'd wait and see if more credible media outlets report this news because (no disrespect) Time of India just might be pulling a clever one off just to ease of the tension that the report of F-16s for Pakistan wud've created. They may also be trying to convey the msg, "oh, so you got Falcons, look at what we got". Anywayz, not much to say here either. Will wait and see how much truth is there in this news piece.

[avj]

F-16s will restore conventional balance: PakFriday, 25 March , 2005, 23:53Islamabad: Jubilant over the US decision to permit the transfer of F-16 fighter aircraft, Pakistan on Friday claimed that the Bush Administration had offered unlimited number of planes to it.



"We can buy as many as we want. We are very happy about this. This will enable us to restore conventional balance with India," Pakistan’s Information Minister Sheikh Rashid told Geo TV reacting to reports from Washington that US had approved sale of the planes to Islamabad.

Rashid said India should not worry about the sale as these aircraft would only help Pakistan replace its old aircraft. "Acquisition of these aircraft does not mean that we are going to war. They will only ensure conventional balance", he said. The Minister said India had acquired a number sophisticated weapons, including Sukhoi from Russia and Falcon radars from Israel. Asked when the US would begin delivering the aircraft, he said US had promised to get the approval of US Congress at the earliest after which the sale would be formalised.

[AK_PAK]

These are what India is considering: Mirage 2000-5 (France), Grippen (Sweden), F-16s and F-18s (USA), and also MiGs from Russia. It will be interesting to see which planes they actually acquire.

[gf0012-aust]

Well i think im right in asuming the F-16 has one of the best safty and maintenance records, correct me if im wrong

and regarding the twin engined ac, the next IAF trainers will be twin engined !!??!!:coffee

The F-16 has the highest safety record in the world for a single engined fixed wing combat aircraft.

[gf0012-aust]

These are what India is considering: Mirage 2000-5 (France), Grippen (Sweden), F-16s and F-18s (USA), and also MiGs from Russia. It will be interesting to see which planes they actually acquire.

The official announcements out of India in the last 48 hrs don't show F-18's at all. They have persistently said that the only US aircraft being considered is the F-16.

[gf0012-aust]

I feel that F-16 Should NOT be allowed a place in the IAF!!!

First of all, we have had enough accidents flying single engine aircraft such as the MiG 21, 23, 27. and recently even Mirage2000s crashed :(

so, India must buy a two engined aircraft, such as the F-15E strike eagle, or, the Rafale or the best option , MiG-29MRC!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indias problems with the Mig21's have little to do with single engine management. In the case of high loss ratios of Mig21's it appears to be due to lifetime and degradation issues of Kapton. Thats why Kapton is illegal now in aircraft construction. The Soviets/Russians were very very heavy users of Kapton in their Mig21, 23, 27, IL-38 and Tu-95, 142 series of aircraft.

The normal attrition rate of aircraft can be 10-20% of the lifetime of the force life of the platform - the fact that other Mirages are not falling out of the sky in a disproportionate pattern from other Mirage users shows that its not a platform fault. and other users hours are just as high as the IAF. (Israeli aggressors, US aggressor squadrons still have F21's (Israeli Kfirs) active. They were used at the recent Nellis exercises against F-16's/15/s/18's Tornadoes etc...

You'll note that very few of the reharnessed Bisons are crashing. Russian aircraft have typically had lousy maintenance and support issues, you'll note that India has been vocal a number of times about reliability issues. Other Mig29 and Su27 users have voiced similar opinions. The Germans had less problems but they were highly maintained as they had very high hours of usage (aggressor training against other NATO forces). Now that the Polish Air Force has adopted them (for the grand price of 1 euro!), it will be interesting to see whether there are new attirtion issues.

[kilo_4que]

not taking sides here but pakistan also has JANG that makes claims with such farse and I used to find it humourous but this is beyond the realms of JANG. I as a british national find it embarrasing for India with its desperate attempts to unsettle the Pakistanis however i see very little concern on the minds of the Pakistanis. The jang made claims such as PAF buying Gripens, Rafales, F16s, packages from Ukrain and China which had some significance of truth but never had they gone to such rediculous lengths.

With so much to boast already and with equipment 10 times more than Pakistans they are still trying desperate attempts to not allow them to purchase anything.

If it boils down to hearts and courage, I take my hat off to the pakistanis.

[mysterious]

Bravo kilo_4que!

[P.A.F]

Any one heard of a F-16 Block 70 that a web site claims lockheed are making for india:confused:

http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20050327000933&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=0

here is a pic of someones version
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-2385.html

[kilo_4que]

All these claims of F16 and F18s to india is absolute nonesense. We shall confirm such news once a credible source releases something. How realistic is it coming from sources such as Time of India, Indian Telegraph and god knows what other indian papers.

I think it is beginning to look rediculous now. Why doesnt this news pop up so dramatically like the sale to pakistan did. The F16 to pakistan was such a big thing within its first day so im sure a deal more worth while than a bunch of F16s would surely hit the headlines everywhere.

[A Khan]

Is there anytime frame regarding the procurement of these 126 AC for the IAF? Because of the Mig-21 issue, the deal should be made in the near future. 126 is a big number and given the TOT, that will take some time before all of these are on Indian airfields.

[SABRE]

All these claims of F16 and F18s to india is absolute nonesense. We shall confirm such news once a credible source releases something. How realistic is it coming from sources such as Time of India, Indian Telegraph and god knows what other indian papers.

I think it is beginning to look rediculous now. Why doesnt this news pop up so dramatically like the sale to pakistan did. The F16 to pakistan was such a big thing within its first day so im sure a deal more worth while than a bunch of F16s would surely hit the headlines everywhere.

I have not herd the news of F-16 or F-18 sale to India by the state department so far. US spokesmen only mentioned sale to Pakistan. I believe that when state department says so.

I have only seen this news on Indians sources & one few western sources which seem to be quoting Indian media sources PS the same western source is criticizing the sale of F-16s to Pakistan. So to me these western & Indians sources are not credible.

Remember when news broke out, it only mentioned F-16 sale to PAF, nothing about India & with in 30 mins F-18 to India thing developed. In the start when Bush informed India, media only said F-16s to Pakistan, they dint even say that Bush while talking to Indian PM offered them F-18s.

& more to this is that the Indian foregin spokesmen has not said any thing about this aswell. They only mentioned F-16 sale to PAF.

No m not being anti-indian or pro Pakistani...we just require valid source & official govt statement to believe this.

[gf0012-aust]

Any one heard of a F-16 Block 70 that a web site claims lockheed are making for india:confused:

Just a gentle hint - forget what you read in the media about F-16's in the Media until you see an official announcement fromn either the US State Dept or the Indian Govt.

To be blunt, some fan site will have no idea what is being offered - and to be extra blunt I can think of numerous reasons as to why it wouldn't happen. There are too many idiots (especially in the public media) casting speculation on this process when it is nowhere near being discussed at that kind of level.

[aaaditya]

well guys the news is confirmed,mike kelly senior executive of lockheed martin has stated that if iaf's requirements are completely beyond any fighter then lm will offer india the f-18 block70 superior to any aircraft from the f-16 stables,completely to indian specifications(on the lines of f-16 b60 developed for uae)with the entire range of latest weapons available with usaf,with full transfer of technology(boeing has made an official offer for f-18 with full tot,:coffee though dont know which variant),yesterday in an interview to headlines today the defence minister mr.pranab mukherjee had claimed that the air force was keen to acquire the f-16's.a fighter competition between mirage2000-5,mig29m,boeing f-18,f-16 and gripen will be carried out and the most advanced fighter would be acquire for iaf,headlines today even carried a comparison between f-16 and f-18 yesterday(they favoured f-18 today they are excited about f-16,further details are expected today night).
www.bharat-rakshak.com (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com) and headlines today,ndtv.com are the various sources for this news.:coffee

[aaaditya]

according to the so called experts on headlines today f-18 is safer and cheaper to operate and has superior capability to the f-16s:coffee,a spokesman of indian external affairs ministry has stated that ,india was offered the f-16 and that iaf is realy keen about it(channel is star news),though he didnt say which version.anyone has any idea which version has been offered to pakistan.

[gf0012-aust]

well guys the news is confirmed,mike kelly senior executive of lockheed martin has stated that if iaf's requirements are completely beyond any fighter then lm will offer india the f-18 block70 superior to any aircraft from the f-16 stables,completely to indian specifications(on the lines of f-16 b60 developed for uae)with the entire range of latest weapons available with usaf,with full transfer of technology(boeing has made an official offer for f-18 with full tot,:coffee though dont know which variant)

Have you got any links from Lockmart or Boeing re this yet?

[SABRE]

one question aaaditya....what does lockheed-martin has to do with F-18s & its sales to India. 2ndly u r again quoting bharat rakshak which is, as gf says, an indian airforce fan club.
I'll believe it when state department says any thing abt it. I wont even take it from Indian FO spokesmen.

Abt PAF versions...PAF knows its requirements & knows about F-16s more than any one in the region. They knw which version is to be aquired. Block 70 meaning planning a new one & than going into its production. This will take years. I mean if IAF is willing to wait til 6 to 7 years than its ok. LH-M says it takes almost 2 years to build up block 60 batch of UAE. I dnt think IAF will buy F-16s even if they do they wont go for block 70. LH-M has promissed the most advanced version to PAF, some one even went out saying more advance than F-16Block 60 of UAEAF. & if IAF triess to get the better PAF will make sure they get the best.

ONE simple Question. Russia threated India that it will open doors of its defence sale to Pakistan if India went into US defence Market. As a sign that they are not joking Russia sold Pakistan Mi-17 helicopters. Now if IAF chooses F-18s or F-16s over Su-27/30 of Russia wont Russia than feel obliged to sell such AirCrafts to Pakistan?? Is India willing to take such a risk??

[SABRE]

Have you got any links from Lockmart or Boeing re this yet?

There is no link GF & aaaditya seems to be charmed by bharat rakshak an IAF fan club.
The Indian defence minister only said that he resents the US decision to sell F-16s to Pakistan but welcomes US invitation to India to buy its advance weapons & arms. He certainly did not say any thing about F-16 or F-18 sale to India.
I was watching tv the whole day yesterday & no such quatation from Indian defence ministry cameup.

As I said & as u said, dont believe it unless US State department says so. Dnt even trust the Indian FO Spokesman.

[gf0012-aust]

one question aaaditya....what does lockheed-martin has to do with F-18s & its sales to India. 2ndly u r again quoting bharat rakshak which is, as gf says, an indian airforce fan club.

Sabre, LM haven't said anything about F-18's, it is apparently the fact that the US Govt has released Boeing to be able to sell as well. That would stand to reason if LM has been cleared as it would be an open market

BR are actually one of the more reliable sources, so I wouldn't be too harsh on them The fan club comment was with regard to F-16.net

I'll believe it when state department says any thing abt it. I wont even take it from Indian FO spokesmen.

Hence why I am interested in follow up confirmations. The Indian Govt is unlikely to make comments which it can't stand by, so if it comes from the Dept of Defence or the Defence Minister I would regard it as substantiated.

My caution is only because of what we saw in here with respect to fighters for the PAF. Some people were making outlandish comments which spread like a forest fire - to the point where the Swedish Govt as well as SAAB had to make a public announcement denying the issue of process.

I have no faith in public media that can't be supported by the manufacturer or a govt source.

I cannot see the IAF accepting F-18's for a number of reasons.

Before people get excited about which plane is being offered they need to remember that aircraft are purchased on a requirements basis - not on an availability or modernity basis.

[aaaditya]

actually it is quite a recent news so we can expext something more tommorow.however gf if you receive the indian news channel headlines today you will know what iam saying,indian defenceminister pranab mukherjee has stated in an exclusive interview that the f-16s have been offered and that indian airforce is actively considering them9now thatys coming from the horse's mouth).i didnt meen that india will purchase them(unless they prove to be clearly superior to the competitors),but atleast it will be a thorough evaluation for the best possible platform(each competitor will try to outperform the other).:coffee

[gf0012-aust]

actually it is quite a recent news so we can expext something more tommorow.however gf if you receive the indian news channel headlines today you will know what iam saying,indian defenceminister pranab mukherjee has stated in an exclusive interview that the f-16s have been offered and that indian airforce is actively considering them9now thatys coming from the horse's mouth).i didnt meen that india will purchase them(unless they prove to be clearly superior to the competitors),but atleast it will be a thorough evaluation for the best possible platform(each competitor will try to outperform the other).:coffee

matey we don't get the Indian or Pakistani news services, so I can only rely on what I see in here, other web sites or on google.

being lazy I was hoping that one of you locals would be able to provide sources. I'm aware of the F-16 deal - but I was unaware of any confirming news on the offer of Hornets.

a Hornet offer would make sense with resepect to US companies wanting open competition - but Boeings offer would be late as I'd thought that India had only indicated an F-16 interest.

I was also interested on seeing whether India would still be interested in US aircraft after the US Govt decision to offer up F-16's to Pakistan.

My reason for wanting official releases is the fact that I have seen far too many instances where people talk up platform purchases in their local media - but there is no substance in it at all.

So, the outstanding unknown issue for me is the Hornet offer.

[aaaditya]

well gf cant confirm the f-18 news ,since it is still just a news in the media whereas the defence minister seems to have words only for f-16.by the way www.indiadefence.com (http://www.indiadefence.com) has posted an article on this issue.the true gains for india are cooperation in civilian nuclear and space technology and defence technology which usa has offered.US was always reluctant to cooperate with india on space and nuke front(that has changed now,india can gain immensely from it).by the way i would love to know why australia selected the f-18 and how was their experience with the aircraft.:coffee

[gf0012-aust]

by the way i would love to know why australia selected the f-18 and how was their experience with the aircraft.:coffee

well, this is what the americans think of australian pilots..

The following article is from Aviation Week & Space Technology. Sep 3, 2001.
Australian Training Yields Top-Notch Fighter Pilots
WILLIAM B. SCOTT/RAAF BASE WILLIAMTOWN, AUSTRALIA

High standards, intense training and a steady diet of practice are the secrets to RAAF fighter pilots' success in the air. The Royal Australian Air Force has developed a high-standard training regimen that ensures its F/A-18 pilots consistently fare very well during simulated air combat engagements against their allied counterparts.

As a result, the RAAF's reputation for fielding excellent fighter pilots has sparked a recurring question among humbled mock opponents for years: What are the Australians doing differently?

Testimony from U.S., U.K. and other fighter crews seems to support the RAAF's reputation. A U.S. Navy officer who flew F-14s in several multinational exercises throughout the Pacific said, "It was easy to find the Aussies--look behind you. Those guys were always on your tail."

In a report submitted to Pacific Air Force headquarters, a U.S. Air Force pilot who recently returned from a 2.5-year exchange tour as an instructor at the RAAF's Fighter School gave high marks to the Australian training program. Later, in a pithy e-mail message--which, to his chagrin, was immediately circulated around the globe--he gave flying buddies a glowing account of his experience down under.

"The RAAF has avoided the political-correctness wave . . . and has retained a culture that emphasizes war-fighting over politics. It was interesting to watch the [RAAF] absolutely pummel visiting U.S. fighter squadrons . . . . These bumpkins from down under treat us the way the North Vietnamese Air Force treated us 35 years ago--they are kicking our platinum [tails] with 20-mm. gunshots from 2,000 ft. back, like the Red Baron," he wrote.

Australia transforms newly winged airmen into dual-role F/A-18 pilots at its Fighter School, which is located on RAAF Base Williamtown near the continent's eastern coast. Since 1985, when the RAAF started flying its 75 Hornets, F/A-18 training has been handled by No. 2 Operational Conversion Unit, commonly known as 2OCU Sqdn.

Sixteen years later, the small air force still has an inventory of 71 A- and B-model Hornets. A three-phase upgrade program and a separate structural refurbishment effort is modernizing the fleet and extending its operational life to about 2012-16, senior officers here said (see p. 96). After the upgrade, RAAF aircraft will be roughly equivalent to a U.S. Navy F/A-18C.

The 2OCU training squadron runs several courses, but its primary role is to graduate a "D-Category" fighter pilot proficient in both air-to-air and air-to-surface tactics. About 70 hr. of flight time during the 23-week F/A-18 conversion course will produce a pilot having basic fighter skills, including formation, instrument and night flying. Typically, 37 sorties are dedicated to air-to-air training, another 22 are air-to-surface--including maritime attack--and the final four or five are live-fire missions with high-explosives. The latter require deploying to a range near Townsville, a fighter base about 850 mi. north of Williamtown. Throughout the course, students also "fly" eight air-to-air and 12 air-to-surface missions in a ground simulator.

The squadron's 14 instructors (including USAF and Canadian Air Force exchange pilots) train two classes of 6-10 students each year. Of the unit's 18 Hornets, 10-12 are two-seat F/A-18B versions. Some of those "duals are shared with operational squadrons at times," said Sqdn. Ldr. Alan Clements, an instructor and the 2OCU executive officer. During peak flying periods, the unit can generate 25-30 F/A-18 sorties per day, but a normal daily schedule will produce 15-20 flights. About 3,000 hr. are flown each year.

"By comparison, an operational unit will fly 2,500-3,000 hr. a year," Clements said. "We fly more hours than an operational squadron, [because] we graduate dual-role pilots qualified in both air-to-air and air-to-surface."
However, those flight hours are hard on 2OCU's aircraft, particularly the two-seaters. "When you only have about eight dual-seat aircraft on the flightline at once, they're pretty precious commodities," said Wing Cdr. William Henman, a former 2OCU commanding officer now attending the USAF Air War College. "They spend a lot of time at high angles-of-attack and pulling gs, so our [B-models] are getting tired. Our per-flight-hour stress accrual is quite high; some of the duals are fleet-leaders in fatigue."

This editor spent three days at 2OCU, talking to students, commanders and instructors, flying on a 2-versus-1 air combat maneuvering (ACM) training mission, and looking for a "magic something" that might explain why RAAF pilots consistently either beat or at least humble their air-to-air opponents. Surprisingly, I found 2OCU instructors reluctant to claim they might be superior combat pilots. Humility is hardly a trait associated with a fighter jock, who typically firmly believes he is the best pilot on Earth--a conviction that's essential for survival. No pilot here denied the RAAF's hard-won reputation, though, and acknowledgments were carefully phrased.

"I think we have a cost-effective training program that produces a qualified combat fighter and strike pilot in a relatively short time," said Air Commo. Paul F. Devine, commander of RAAF's Tactical Fighter Group. "And I think we do pretty well against world[-class] standards--as good as anybody else, and better than some. The RAAF holds to high standards--in selection and training--to ensure a high-quality pilot product."

"We've done fairly well during multinational exercises," Henman echoed. "When we've fought our Hornets against U.S. Air Force units, we've compared very favorably. But we get a lot of practice here, and I believe we get more opportunities than U.S. operators of the Hornet. The Navy and Marine Corps, just due to their operations tempo and deployments, don't have the luxury of spending [considerable] time on the core skills like we do. And I can't overemphasize that we benefit greatly from our exchange programs with the U.S. Navy and Air Force. We take a lot of lessons they learn during foreign deployments and [actual] operations, then modify our tactics."

ONE NOTEWORTHY TRAINING DIFFERENTIATOR I observed is the degree of regimentation and flexibility. U.S. pilots normally are restricted from "pushing the envelope"--mainly for safety reasons and to ensure consistency of training throughout a large force--but I detected a difference in attitude and freedom to explore new concepts, as well.

"I think we do have a different ethos in training at the squadron level, and that makes us effective in the air-to-air [arena]," said Sqdn. Ldr. Phil Eldridge, a 2OCU instructor who also heads the Fighter Combat Instructor course--which is the RAAF equivalent of the U.S. Navy's "Top Gun" and USAF's Weapon School (see p. 94). "We don't highly regiment our 'bandit' (aggressor) presentations. That's a big difference from other air forces, I think.

"We often allow very wild, aggressive maneuvering of our 'bandits' during air-to-air flows. I don't think that's very representative of what we'll see if we go to war . . . but training to the extreme is very challenging," Eldridge explained. "We take the gloves off and tell guys, 'You're cleared weird.' When you're fighting someone who's 'cleared weird,' you know that every time you try to lock [an enemy] on radar, they're going to split into singles, or one's going to drop 20,000 ft. of altitude, or turn into the [Doppler radar's] 'notch,' or dispense chaff. You work real hard to get them--and that takes you out of your 'safe' area; you peak with a [higher] level of skills. Your reactions become very fast. You're quick to manipulate the radar and its employment--and that's one of our strong points, I think. This forces you to think faster, while reinforcing a lot of basic skills."

He and other pilots here attributed the RAAF's air combat success to aggressive training, a focus on countering complex enemy maneuvers or "presentations," and a concentration on short-range radar tactics. Another subtle but important factor is the RAAF's emphasis on air combat skill-building rather than procedure-following. Squadrons make sure pilots develop good situational awareness, targeting techniques and defensive skills, rather than rote by-the-numbers maneuvers, Eldridge noted.

SOME MAY DISPUTE THE RAAF'S EMPHASIS on close-in fighter tactics, noting that modern air combat tactics have moved toward beyond-visual-range (BVR) engagements and away from "dogfighting." However, most nations' rules of engagement (ROE) dictate a potential enemy aircraft must be visually identified before firing a long-range missile.

"You really don't want to be in a visual arena anymore," Henman agreed. "The focus should be on weapons systems and rules of engagement that allow you to employ those weapons BVR. Why have a long-range Amraam if you're forced to get in close enough to see the other guy's tail flash? But, until we have different ROEs, or enough systems to get a positive ID at BVR, we're going to have to get into that visual arena. Then, all the skills we teach are required to come out of the battle alive."

He noted that, historically, every time a new missile seeker has been developed, an effective countermeasure to it is close behind, negating some advantage of BVR systems. In contrast, that limitation disappears in a close-in fight where a short-range gun or cannon is effective. "You can't jam a bullet," one pilot said.

"In the end, if you can pull your airplane to a [position of] leading the other guy, and he gets big in your windscreen, you're going to scare him. If you build a fighter that has no gun or no [short-range] missile capability, I think you're a bit foolish," Henman declared. Consequently, much of the 2OCU training program is dedicated to developing skills necessary for visual engagements.

Another effective RAAF pilot-building technique is "block training," where a squadron will fly exclusively air-to-air or air-to-surface missions for up to four weeks. "If everybody in the squadron is flying four-ship [air engagements] every day--talking, briefing, flying and debriefing nothing but four-ships--it gets us to a higher skill level," Eldridge said. "It's particularly effective for junior pilots; they can focus on just one set of procedures associated with air-to-air. Then we might go to a four-week block of air-to-surface training. [Next,] we'll probably fly an exercise that combines air-to-air and air-to-surface."

Henman, Clements and Eldridge were quick to also point out the RAAF's shortcomings in preparing for modern coalition warfare. "The one thing we really lack is exposure to large-force [air combat] packages and integrating with specialized force-multipliers, such as AWACS and electronic warfare platforms," Clements said. "We don't get to see a lot of these. And, as a relatively small defense-oriented force, we're not able to provide those on our own."

In recent years, though, RAAF units have deployed overseas and taken part in a Cope Thunder exercise in Alaska and Canada's Maple Flag, providing valuable exposure to large-force operations.

It appeared to me that the RAAF's air combat training program is closely aligned with those of the U.S., U.K. and other Western air forces, but is distinguished by subtle, perhaps important differentiators. The Australians are uncompromising in setting high training standards, and are adamant about flying a lot of hours to hone and sustain perishable skills. Those standards have come under scrutiny recently, since the RAAF is having a tough time recruiting and retaining enough pilots in its three operational F/A-18 squadrons. A relatively small national population, an airline hiring spree, and competing career opportunities during the last five years have led to a shortage of line pilots and 2OCU instructors.

"WE'RE UNDER PRESSURE AT 2OCU TO GET MORE people through the [conversion] program," Henman said. "If we take in nine students and consistently only graduate five, we have to question whether we're being too elitist. 2OCU has always been absolutely uncompromising about our graduation requirements, and that gives us a high-quality pilot. If we backed off our training standards, and don't put people through the difficult [regimen] we do now, we will graduate more pilots. I assure you, though, if the squadrons start losing airplanes, it will be traced back to training, and we'll be right back to our [stringent] requirements."

Ultimately, the winner of an air-to-air engagement comes down to small advantages in technique, skill and speed of thought--all elements honed through practice. Therein may lie the biggest differentiator, some pilots here believe. The RAAF dual-role fighter pilot trains for fewer types of missions than USAF, for example, becomes proficient with a smaller array of air-to-ground weapons, and--thanks to being a smaller force--can train with a keener focus.

"The RAAF flies more air-to-air sorties in a given time than U.S. crews do--not like our air force, which has to deploy a lot and fly around over Bosnia or Iraq, losing its edge," said Maj. Dan Spires, a USAF exchange officer serving as an instructor at 2OCU. "Here, they train to be flexible and to fit into coalition forces [by] adopting others' warfighting tactics and procedures."

That winning-edge "magic" factor remains somewhat of a mystery, even to RAAF pilots. "The consensus of U.S. Navy, USAF and Marine Corps exchange pilots is that the Cat-D pilot 2OCU graduates tends to be at a higher proficiency level than U.S. conversion graduates in a particular fighter type," Clements said. "That may be due to good screening or intense training or something else. We're not real sure what makes our graduates slightly more proficient."

Bear in mind that the RAAF Hornets have been upgraded with HMCS etc... so they're not standard. At the time of the article they were just standard "Bugs".

[srirangan]

I won't trust the Indian news agencies on this one. But here are the links GF:
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=99228
http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=90355
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1062590.cms
http://www.keralanext.com/news/indexread.asp?id=162233
http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=90761
http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=90807
http://thepakistaninewspaper.com/news_detail.php?id=1802

"A lot of bullshit" Warning. These South Asian sources, especially Indian are based on hype.

[SABRE]

Sri these are either indian or Pakistani sources. At the moment dont trust indian sites & Pakistanis are quoting indians. Believe me niether India nor Pakistan have got any news on this. Only thing for sure is that US is willing to sell advance weapons to India.

[aaaditya]

also there is an article on www.ndtv.com(but (http://www.ndtv.com(but) srirangan they mentioned a price of 6-7 million dollars,i think it would be more in the range of 60-70million dollars per aircraft.18aircrafts in flyaway condition rest to be built in india(how is that possible if it is to be a redesigned aircraft).the sales would however be through fms.

[srirangan]

Sri these are either indian or Pakistani sources. At the moment dont trust indian sites & Pakistanis are quoting indians. Believe me niether India nor Pakistan have got any news on this. Only thing for sure is that US is willing to sell advance weapons to India.
That's what I said all along in my comment mate. Most sources from the subcontinent lack credibility in this regard.

Aaaditya,
Now don't get me started on NDTV ;-)

[WebMaster]

The news about US selling F-18s / F-16s and or nuke tech has NOT been confirmed by any US media, US foriegn dept, DoD. Whatever Pakistani media is reporting is just what we saw in India media, pakistani media (if there is one) just copied off Indian media and that is what what Indian side wanted... those news have NOT been confirmed by official entities so as far as I am concerned its' nothing but bullshit until we see something from DoD or atleast press releases from white house/indian government.

F-18 news first appeared in Times of India during later part of the day when F-16s to Pak news came out. From that moment on, F-18 news slowly but surely was copied by other Indian news sites and when they were done, it made its way to Washington Times, which did nothing different but copied Times of India.

On one hand people dismiss Pakistani media for its "biases and what not" and on the other hand they use it to show how credible it is (or how credible Indian media is for that matter that Pak media is confirming the same news) even though they are doing nothing different than copying what has already appeared in Indian media.

I think, it's time people grow out of their insecurities and wait for official confirmation before jumping the guns... what Indian media is doing is same as "my dick is bigger than your dick..." by publishing unconfirmed and untrue reports just to ward off news about F-16s to pakistan, its very childish of such well established media to do.

[kilo_4que]

Something that just shone to light is an old articlei once read regarding the russians being upset with india considering other sources for arms. Now i very much doubt that the russians would be entirely pleased if india purchased a squadron of F-16s from america where its closest ally has fighters at hand to provide.

It is funny how coincidently that after the confirmation of the F-16s to pakistan, there has been a sudden outburst of "deals" offered to india which have not been condirmed by CREDIBLE sources such as Janes and AFM. Please refer to such sources to solidify your claims.

[SABRE]

There is no need of refering to any source/media/website .... what media will write & show any thing to either earn money or hide their faces. Dnt believe any thing unless its coming out of the mouth of governments them selves specialy the seller, USA in perticular. Unless ,like F-16 sale to PAF, F-18 sell to India comes out of the state department's statments.

About india's plan to purchase new aircrafts. I have few questions.

1. Wouldnt Russia resent the purchase???

2. Wouldnt another front line fighter (Adding to Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 & MiG-29) put burden on IAF also exceed its cost of maintainance etc...(too little to be left for perossonal & their training/development)???

3. According to a news artical, posted by one of our moderators, India has postponed the purchase of 126 ACs to facilitate Scorpian Subs for IN....what abt that issue???

[A Khan]

U.S. to Sell Jets to Pakistan; India Upset




Saturday March 26, 2005 3:01 AM



AP Photo ISL101

By ANNE GEARAN

AP Diplomatic Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration rewarded Pakistan, an improbable ally in the war on terrorism, with a promise Friday that it could buy sophisticated U.S.-built F-16 warplanes. Pakistan's nuclear rival, India, immediately complained the sale would threaten its security.

The sales would represent a shift in policy after years of sanctions and harsh rhetoric from Washington over Pakistan's nuclear ambitions and what U.S. administrations have seen as tolerance for Islamic extremism. Since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, however, Pakistan has become an important partner in hunting suspected terrorists and cracking down on anti-American extremists.

Mindful of the fragile balance of power in South Asia, the administration also gave a green light to India for its own purchase of sophisticated weapons.

State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said the administration sent reports to Congress on Friday describing proposals to sell armaments to both Pakistan and India. Congress must sign off on the sensitive technology export.

Ereli said, ``We are looking to improve security and improve prosperity and improve development of the entire region as a whole.''

``Part of that is a decision to begin negotiations with the Pakistani government and Congress to sell F-16s to Pakistan and to respond favorably to a request for information from India for the possible sale of multi-role combat aircraft,'' he said.

U.S. defense companies are now ``free to talk to India about what they have to offer, and it will be up to India to decide what it wants,'' to buy, Ereli said.

The move allows Pakistan to finally move ahead on planned purchases of two dozen F-16s dating to the 1980s, before the United States blocked the sale because of Pakistan's increasingly obvious drive to build nuclear weapons.

There is no limit on future sales to Pakistan, a State Department official said on condition of anonymity.

Pakistan's information minister, Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, called the decision a ``good gesture by the United States'' and said the transaction would ease anti-American sentiment in the Islamic nation.

``This will fulfill our defense requirements,'' he said. ``We had been lagging behind (India) in conventional weapons. This will improve the situation.''

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she discussed sales of F-16s to both Pakistan and India during back-to-back visits to those countries earlier this month. Rice chose not to announce the Pakistan decision on that trip in part to avoid angering India.

India and Pakistan have fought three wars since the former British colony was partitioned in 1947 into predominantly Hindu and predominantly Muslim states.

President Bush tried to head off Indian worries with an early morning phone call to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Calling from his ranch in Crawford, Texas, Bush told Singh that the administration was moving ahead with the sale, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

At the same time, Bush told Singh that the United States was responding to India's request for information on its own future warplane purchases, Perino said.

The United States reassured India that it had the administration's blessing to buy F-16s, or perhaps F-18s. India is contemplating a multibillion dollar purchase of fighter planes, including U.S.-built or foreign-made aircraft.

The United States has sold a variety of weaponry to India since lifting a ban on arms sales three years ago that had been imposed after an Indian nuclear test. Last year, in a move seen as a coup for India, the administration gave the go-ahead for Lockheed Martin to give India information for prospective sales of F-16s.

Singh told Bush that sales to Pakistan would endanger security in the region, and expressed ``great disappointment'' over the decision, Sanjaya Baru, the prime minister's spokesman said.

New Delhi is worried that arming Pakistan with the advanced jet fighters would tilt the military balance in the region and could adversely affect peace talks between India and Pakistan. The F-16 sale to Pakistan is meant to remove a persistent irritant in U.S.-Pakistani relations. Pakistan struck a deal with the United States to buy the nuclear-capable F-16 fighter jets 15 years ago, but the agreement was scrapped in the 1990s when Washington imposed sanctions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4893028,00.html

A non-South asian website also mentioning the F-18s... and i'm quite certain reading somewhere that Adam Ereli, the US spokesman who comfirmed the F-16 news yesterday, has said the same thing, just forget to post it here. But again even if the US has offered F-18s, what are the chances of full TOT? and given the price tag, what are the chances of India buying them? in my view not many. India will most likely get other things from the US then F-16s or F-18s... maybe PAC-3...

[A Khan]

A every interesting point regarding the US offer to India: (source Reuters )

The Bush administration played down India's security concerns, and signaled a willingness to sell sophisticated fighters to India if it chooses to buy them in the future, but made no firm commitments. A U.S. official said India is contemplating a "very large" purchase of fighters, including U.S.-built F-16s and possibly F-18s.

Full article:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8005307

[SABRE]

If u read what we have been saying u'll notice that we mentioned that some Pakistani as well as western sources are quoting Indians media. US state department did not announce any such deal. It would only become credible when they announce it.

[aaaditya]

well saber the sanctioning of f-16 for pakistan will definitely get the iaf and the defence ministry worked up ,it will be no surprise if the 128 aircraft is given top priority along with the scorpenes.:coffee

[kilo_4que]

SABRE, where you say disregard media metaphorically speaking, u need to be more precise as anything nowadays as a means of information can be called media. Further to add, not all the time do official government reports need to act as evidence of claims otherwise there would be no point in certain media such as Janes and AFM which im sure as the rest would agree with me on are probably the finest sources of military information.

[srirangan]

No matter what who says, India won't be procuring the American fighters. The IAF has already made it public that its first choice is the french jets.

The American offers, Govt Statements and the Indian media spin off is just an attempt to avoid any anti-US sentiment within the country.

[mysterious]

India considers purchasing F-16s

* Lockheed Martin offers ‘exclusive’ F-16s to India

NEW DELHI: India is considering buying F-16 fighter aircraft for its air force, a news report said on Sunday, just days after New Delhi protested a US decision to sell the same aircraft to Pakistan.

American fighter aircraft and weapons’ manufacturers “are willing to work with us and they have submitted some proposals to us”, the Press Trust of India news agency quoted Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee as saying in Calcutta.

“Naturally, we will discuss them (the proposals), and if the military aircraft and other weapons needed for our national interest are available from the US, we will certainly consider them,” Mukherjee said.

His statement came on Saturday evening, a day after US officials announced the sale of F-16 jet fighters to Pakistan and signalled that India could move ahead with its own weapon buys.

India expressed “great disappointment” over the US decision to sell fighter aircraft to Pakistan, and said doing so would tilt the military balance in the region and could harm India-Pakistan peace talks that began last year. India has bought more than $30 billion worth of Soviet and Russian arms since 1960. It has been diversifying the sources of its weaponry since the break-up of the former Soviet Union.

India’s aging fleet of MiG-21 fighter jets – dating back to the 1960s – is currently the backbone of its fighter inventory. On Saturday, Mukherjee said “cooperation in economic and other areas between the US and India has increased manifold, but so far there has been no defence agreement between the two countries”.

Meanwhile, F-16 manufacturer Lockheed Martin has offered to build ‘exclusive’ F-16 warplanes for the Indian Air Force (IAF), much superior to any existing fighters in service world over.

“If India’s requirements are beyond any existing fighters, we are prepared to make upgraded F-16s to India’s specifications with a complete transfer of technology,” Mike Kelly, senior executive of Lockheed Martin, said in comments that assume importance after the US administration’s decision to clear sales of high-technology fighters to India and Pakistan. “We have in the past taken up building such exclusive fighters for the United Arab Emirates and are prepared to manufacture F-16s to India’s special requirements,” he said.

The F-16 deal, like the weapons-locating radars and new contract for the US Navy cover for Indian naval submarines in distress, is going to be concluded as a government-to-government deal under the FMS system, which would enable delivery of fighters on a fast track basis.

The deal, estimated to cost about $6 million to $7 million, projects supply of 18 aircraft in flyaway conditions and the rest 108 assembled in India under technology transfer. Analysts said the administration’s announcement on Saturday meant that along with the sales of the fighters, Washington may allow the sale of an entire array of weapons platform mounted on it, including beyond visual range air-to-air missiles and 100 kilometre standoff ground target engaging missiles. Lockheed Martin is currently manufacturing F-16s in two versions. While Block 50-52 was being supplied to US and European air forces, Block 60 was developed exclusively for the UAE. “We are ready to develop Block 70 for the IAF,” the Lockheed Martin official said. AP/NNI

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-3-2005_pg1_6

This is just amusing to read through! All I see is a weapons manufacturer desparately trying to receive orders to stay alive. They know that 126 aircraft requirement is good enough for LH-M to survive a few more years and that Pakistan wouldn't go for as many aircrafts; so they're trying to sell to both parties and last more than just 'a few years'. However, I dont see IAF officials being so naive as to fall for this bait. They're inventory and operational apparatus just wont do well with American hardware (for now atleast); and it would just be a logistical nightmare the way I see it. Better they stick to Mirages I'd say. On the other end, I think that PAF should press LH-M for an 'exclusively' configured F-16 production line for themselves! :coffee

[highsea]

Desperately trying to stay alive? Lol :rolleyes:

Pakistan had been asking for these AC for years. Now the US agrees, and it's only because LM is "desperately trying to stay alive". Sheesh. FYI, the F-16 production line has a couple more years of production, even without the new planes. And if the line did shut down, most of the workers would move over to the JSF, F-22, one of the many other projects at LM, or in the worst case, just go to Boeing. 2,000 workers can easily be absorbed in a company the size of LM, even if it just means not replacing workers that are retiring.

I don't think you need to start up any collections for Lockheed just yet. :coffee

[mysterious]

Highsea, you get ahead of yourself way to soon. I was talking with regards to the F-16 production line, hence my words of 'a few more years' (read that correctly?). And my point abt LH-M being desparate wasn't based on F-16s sales to Pakistan but its efforts to get an IAF order in to breathe new life in to the F-16 production.

[Admin edit: We all need to read each other before replying to each other.]

[gf0012-aust]

Highsea, you get ahead of yourself way to soon. I was talking with regards to the F-16 production line, hence my words of 'a few more years' (read that correctly?). And my point abt LH-M being desparate wasn't based on F-16s sales to Pakistan but its efforts to get an IAF order in to breathe new life in to the F-16 production.

So the next time you feel like expressing your personal hatred of me in threads; use some other method other than plucking my post's words out of context and changing the meaning of my post to suit your hidden agendas. :P

Myst, the above is what you originally wrote and which another Mod has edited out. It's not Highsea as it would have come up in the edit log. Wheover has edited it has done so because they thought it was not in the spirit of continued reasoned debate - not because they were "protecting" another Mod.

To be fair, I certainly read your response similarly to what Highsea has, and because of the edit, a 3rd mod has also been of the same opinion.

Maybe you need to revisit the way you type your responses in future so as to avoid any confusuion. btw I don't "hate" you or do I have any hidden agendas - and I don't think Highsea and the 3rd Mod do either. (whoever that was!)

Reverse the roles and see how you would have interpreted it, I think you'll find that it can be interpreted the way that Highsea has seen it.

Be that as it may, there is to be no further debate on the rights/wrongs, justices/injustices on this as it provides no relevance ot comfort to the topic at hand. Case Closed.

[srirangan]

Myst,
I don't think India will be interested in those "exclusive, block 70" F16's.
Approving the sale to Pak killed all their chances for the IAF order.

[P.A.F]

Sri ur right.
read this guys

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEK20050327101220&Title=Southern+News+-+Karnataka&Topic=0

Don't trust US on F-16 offer: Senior retired IAF officers caution Govt
Monday March 28 2005 00:00 IST
BANGALORE: The United States (US) offer to sell F-16s' and F-18s' to India has led to a debate in defence circles across India, but senior retired Indian Air Force (IAF) officers in the aviation capital of the country are not excited.

Retired Air Marshals, who served in key positions in the IAF till recently, caution the Centre to tread cautiously and not fall into the US trap. ``I do not find any logic in the US offer. It is trying to promote an arms race in the region,'' a retired Air Marshal and defence analyst told this website's newspaper.

According to him, the US will never sell F-16s' or F18s' to India and it will keep on dragging the deal for years. ``The US is talking about balance of power in the region by selling F-16s to India and Pakistan. If that is the case, why is it talking about selling F-18s to India? Will that not disturb the balance and contradict US views?'' he questioned.

``We should not be over optimistic about it. To me it is like a fraudulent offer,'' the retired Air Marshal added.

Another expert, Air Marshal (Rtd) P Rajkumar said unless there is some concrete treaty, he would not trust them (US) too much. ``God knows which way they will turn,'' he said.

As the head of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, Rajkumar had flown the basic variants of F-16s in 1996. He had also headed the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a DRDO laboratory, which designed and developed LCA.

According to these officers, acquiring US-made jets will open up different spectrum of logistics and maintenance requirements. Training procedure also requires to be slightly reoriented as India has been traditionally been training on Russian and Anglo-French fighters and equipment.

The reason for the US posture, some believe, is that the super power is smelling a big contract as India had asked for an experssion of interest for a jet produced by Lockheed Martin. The IAF is now shopping for 126 multi-role fighters and sought information from different aircraft manufactures.

[mysterious]

This article just elaborates what I said in my previous post. IAF should stick to French and Russians.

[SABRE]

I just dont understand why IAF is not pushing for much more advance Russian platforms such as Su-30MKI. Sukhois are great ACs & its amazing how IAF has not realy given it much of an importance compared to Mirages or any other (western) ACs.

[mysterious]

Well yeah, there a couple of Russian ACs that could replace the Mig-21s and become the mainstay of the IAF but I'm amazed to see how low priority the Russians are getting on this issue. I'm sure Putin is keeping a close eye on the events as they unfold.

[kilo_4que]

I just dont understand why IAF is not pushing for much more advance Russian platforms such as Su-30MKI. Sukhois are great ACs & its amazing how IAF has not realy given it much of an importance compared to Mirages or any other (western) ACs.

well i guess that justifies all the more "realism" in the news about F16s and F18s to india.

[P.A.F]

i still don't think IAF will go for the American aircrafts. they will and i think they are better off with the french swed or russian platforms.

[adsH]

Desperately trying to stay alive? Lol :rolleyes:

Pakistan had been asking for these AC for years. Now the US agrees, and it's only because LM is "desperately trying to stay alive". Sheesh. FYI, the F-16 production line has a couple more years of production, even without the new planes. And if the line did shut down, most of the workers would move over to the JSF, F-22, one of the many other projects at LM, or in the worst case, just go to Boeing. 2,000 workers can easily be absorbed in a company the size of LM, even if it just means not replacing workers that are retiring.

I don't think you need to start up any collections for Lockheed just yet. :coffee

the main Problem is if LM didn't start getting orders it would of had to lay off skilled workers which are valuable assets which cannot be utilized in other places. they would of had to lay off people to economize and save money since no more orders were being put through and LM would of wanted to stretch the production out till latest it could.

[srirangan]

I just dont understand why IAF is not pushing for much more advance Russian platforms such as Su-30MKI. Sukhois are great ACs & its amazing how IAF has not realy given it much of an importance compared to Mirages or any other (western) ACs.
Uh?
Procuring the MKI's is an ongoing thing. The IAF gets around 18-24 SU-30 MKI's each year.
These 126 are a totally different and have nothing to do with the Su 30 Mki acquisition.

[aaaditya]

the mrca requirement is for an aircraft class( lightweight category requiring lesser maintenance and easier to operarate than the hitech twin engined su-30,but able to perform multirole tasks and which could be acquired in large quantities to performance operations in the short and medium ranges while su-30 will handle longer ranges.):coffee

[highsea]

the main Problem is if LM didn't start getting orders it would of had to lay off skilled workers...adsh, maybe you didn't understand my post. Having spent nearly 20 years on the production side for a tier one contractor for both Boeing and LM, I have a pretty good idea what the situation is. As I mentioned, there are sufficient orders now for the Ft. Worth line for at least two more years. If neither of the orders were placed, there would be no lay-offs.

In fact, both Boeing and LM are hiring as many skilled people as they can get right now. A quick visit to their websites will confirm this if you are in doubt. Aerospace is cyclical, and is on an upswing right now. Lockheed has almost 140,000 workers. The people on the F-16 line are machinists, mfg. engineers, toolmakers, assemblers, etc. They can easily be moved around, their skills are generic to any AC program. Lockheed is not going to give up these people to Boeing- they would just move them to another program. This happens all the time.

Natural attrition in the workforce means that Boeing and LM each have to replace about 8,000 to 10,000 of this type of worker each year just to stay even. When cutbacks do happen, all the companies normally do is place a hiring freeze. In the most extreme instances, they offer early retirement incentives to the oldest workers. This allows them to keep the younger workers, and let the older ones retire. Workers are moved around all the time- it's a constant in the trade as people move up in seniority and younger workers are trained in their place. Even after 9/11, which caused a huge downturn, I don't think Boeing laid off any production workers. These are the last guys to go- Boeing and LM protect this part of their workforces jealously- jobs get pulled in-house that are normally contracted out if necessary to keep the workforce intact, as the company knows that downturns are always followed by booms.

I have a friend who is an engineer in Ft. Worth. No one has recieved any warn notices, there has been no talk of cutbacks in the plant. That's just politicians talking.

Now, let's please stick to the topic.

[SABRE]

u talk about LH-M coming to a close on F-16s production facility. Well if u both understand good urdu I'll say this " Aaam khao, perh na ginoo" .. if u dont understand Urdu than let me translate "Eat the mangoes, dont count the trees" meaning just be happy ur getting some thing dont worry about how or why you are getting it.
So just be happy that we are getting F-16s, why or how is not our concern. LH-M is a big company & big companies dont go down that easily. Besides there are thousands of F-16s out there, they need MLUs, fixings, re-builings etc. LH-M lines wont shut down as long as there are F-16s out there.

[mysterious]

I only talked abt F-16 production line and stuff when the news of LH-M being on its heels to offer F-16s and/or F-18s to IAF came to light. IAF needs 126 multi-role aircraft and that is a good way to keep the F-16 production line running for atleast 5 more years (in addition to the 2 yr worth of production already on LH-M hands). It was in this regard that I said, LH-M wants to extend the life of F-16s production line by more than just a 'few years'.

[highsea]

Guys, nobody really took the Indian inquiry that seriously- it was directed more at assessing platform capabilities. India was never seriously looking at F-16's, and was perfectly aware that the US would be selling these AC to Pakistan, so by gaining some "confidential info" on the F-16, they felt that they would be in a better position wrt threat assessment.

I hate to have to state the obvious here, but geez...

So let's put this silly discussion to bed about the F-16 production line, and get back to the topic- IAF and the 126 AC.

[mysterious]

Finally... :P

[rafale_2k5]

i dont understand this Indian paronia of Pakistan buying F-16s since technically even now India has much superior jts in the form of MKIs. As far as goin 4 F-18s is concerned i dont see that IAF would be so naiive to pick a failed jet, even the super hornet suffers from serious technical issues like wing drop etc , If i were in the IAF would definitely bet my 10 cents eithe on MIG-29 SMT or M2K-5 , provide better capabilities than existing later blocks of F-16s n u cant ignore the infrastructural costs. The US would be very glad to give technology since both have to be replaced by JSF in the future so wat better way of getting rid of ur old junk than to provide it to a prospective super power , n at the same time control the strings as has happened in case of Pakstan . Even gripens r a better choice since the aircraft would under go progressive upgrades thru out its life .... n is a good light , agile multi role patform. Had i been in Indian government n if i was really hard pressed to induct American technology would defntely ask 4 JSF if none other. otherwise PAK-FA does offer comparable capabilities n ive got a hunch it would definitely be better than JSF , As supported by history MIG-29/ Su-30s were better than their American counterparts since they had a requirement to meet which was to do better at everything which an F-16/ F-15 could perform.

AS far as Pakistan is concerned i believe its a desperate measure since the neithe had the bucks nor the political clout to bring about the sale of gripens/ rafales, plus the short term stategic thinking F-16 has reached the end of its life so judging from reports even if the 70 as being contemplated r inducted by the time they come to maturity the world would be buzzing with 5th generation aircrafts like the PAK-FA , JSFn F-22. So all in all it wont amount to much .............n once again we'll see PAF shoppin for junk to keep the F-16 fleet airborne as has happened in case of Mirages....

[gf0012-aust]

As far as goin 4 F-18s is concerned i dont see that IAF would be so naiive to pick a failed jet, even the super hornet suffers from serious technical issues like wing drop etc

I'm curious as to what "wing drop" is. I've had some association with upgrades for these aircraft and thats never been a problem heard of or identified. So what is it? What other Hornet users have had this problem? I would assume that I would have heard of it. All users of aircraft type are alerted when a structural fault is identified - I don't know of the Swiss, Finns or Spanish having this come up either.

If i were in the IAF would definitely bet my 10 cents eithe on MIG-29 SMT or M2K-5 , provide better capabilities than existing later blocks of F-16s n u cant ignore the infrastructural costs. The US would be very glad to give technology since both have to be replaced by JSF in the future so wat better way of getting rid of ur old junk than to provide it to a prospective super power , n at the same time control the strings as has happened in case of Pakstan .

Existing planes already have infrastructure costs - how does your logic work out?

Even gripens r a better choice since the aircraft would under go progressive upgrades thru out its life .... n is a good light , agile multi role patform. Had i been in Indian government n if i was really hard pressed to induct American technology would defntely ask 4 JSF if none other. otherwise PAK-FA does offer comparable capabilities n ive got a hunch it would definitely be better than JSF ,

A gripen (which is a short ranged point defence platform) has what advantages over other aircraft offered? I'm curious to see the credible analysis done. There are some in here who have an aviation industry background, they are familiar with weapons and package disciplines. I'm sure that they are curious to see alternative constructive papers.

As for the PAK-FA, lets see, PAK-FA has been spoken about for how many years? ever seen a mockup? ever seen any conceptual drawings? seen any specs that have been verified by anyone in the aviation industry and not talked up by fan clubs who wouldn't know a tail fin from a sharks fin? ? JSF is at least a legacy platform with F-22 heritage - and there are 51 x F-22's tarmac'd. How is anyone supposed to make a decision on a ghost platform?

As supported by history MIG-29/ Su-30s were better than their American counterparts since they had a requirement to meet which was to do better at everything which an F-16/ F-15 could perform.

Interesting, this is despite the fact that the USAF had 21 Mig 29's of their own for evaluation, and would train hard against the Luftwaffe Mig29's in aggressor roles? The Luftwaffe Pilots had almost double the hours of the East Germans and considerably more than the Russians, and yet their superiority was never obvious except for the rated OCU qualified pilots.

The F-16 has just surpassed the record as the most reliable single engined fighter ever made - they've build more of then than any other aircraft type. Do you seriously think that the Israeli and modified Singaporean F-16's are sub standard?

btw, the F-15 record is 101 kills for no losses. Whats the Su-27 and Mig29 kill rate against loss? Hint, it's single digits - not even double 0 and certainly not triple.

AS far as Pakistan is concerned i believe its a desperate measure since the neithe had the bucks nor the political clout to bring about the sale of gripens/ rafales, plus the short term stategic thinking F-16 has reached the end of its life so judging from reports even if the 70 as being contemplated r inducted by the time they come to maturity the world would be buzzing with 5th generation aircrafts like the PAK-FA , JSFn F-22.

You fail to understand Swedens foreign policy if you blame it on the Pakistani Govt

[indianguy4u]

well one thing is sure nor indian ppl nor communist nor NDA will give permission to this UPA gov to buy those sh*****s AC of US of A.IAF has already shown inclination to buy Mirage 2000-5 AC but i think we should go for rafale or eurofighter as it is current gen MRCA