China Stops Production of Fighter Jets Under Russian License

[gf0012-aust]

China has suspended the production of Su-27SK fighter jets under the Russian license, Russia’s Vremya Novostej newspaper reported on Tuesday, November 2. According to Chinese military officials, these planes no longer satisfy the requirements of Chinese Air Force.

The license to produce 200 fighter jets was purchased by China in 1996. The conditions of the contract stipulated that the jets would be assembled at Chinese plants from the Russian components. The value of the contract amounted to $2.5 billion. However after assembling 95 jets out of the planned 200, the Chinese side addressed the Sukhoi Construction Bureau with a request to stop deliveries of assembly kits. The request was made in May, and neither of the sides disclosed the reasons, why the contract was suspended.

Meanwhile Vremya Novostej quoting a source in the Russian delegation which came to the Airshow China-2004, which opened on Monday, November 1, reported that the Chinese side requested that Su-27SK fighter jets be additionally equipped with guided anti-ship missiles. However this model of fighter jets was not designed to attack targets at sea.

The representatives of Sukhoi construction bureau presented the new model of Su-27 fighter jet — Su-27SKM at the Airshow China-2004. This plane could satisfy all of Chinese requirements, because it is equipped with guided “air to sea� missiles. However, it is unclear whether this new modification of Su jets will be delivered to China in the near future.

--0--

OSINT email - no link available.

Created: 02.11.2004 15:29 MSK (GMT +9.3), Updated: 15:29 MSK, 1 hour 54 minutes ago

Moscow

[Londo Molari]

HMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm if this is true, so it means the Chinese are saying it doesn't meet their requirements... which means they have something else that DOES meet their requirements... HMMMMmmmmm

But there is no source.

[gf0012-aust]

HMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm if this is true, so it means the Chinese are saying it doesn't meet their requirements... which means they have something else that DOES meet their requirements... HMMMMmmmmm

But there is no source.

It's an OSINT report - that's why there is no source. OSINT is a cleared intel rating that doesn't show immediate souces whilst it's being reviewed.

addendum:

It has also just been placed in the Avia (Russian) site. http://avia.ru/

I'm just having some feedback at the moment re this from various sources, so if I can I'll post some of the summations that are "safe"

[dabrownguy]

maybe the reason is because the flankers are too expensive to maintian! the j-10 can nearly do the same job with less maintance. i read somewhere plaaf wanted a total of 600 flankers. is it just me or is that too many even for china?

[Pathfinder-X]

Last time I heard PLAAF is looking for upgrades for their Flanker fleet, possibly to the SMK standard(Some call a cheapen version of Su-35), but it is internet rumor and I have no way of confirming it.

The Flankers are somewhat outdated in terms of avionics and air to air weapon. I think that and the introduction of J-10 are the reasons PLAAF ditch them.

[gf0012-aust]

Various reasons are coming back. Unsubstantiated and of course IOPOO

- their quality control on the J-11s is sufficient to make workable airplanes
- as such that they can drop the imported Su-27 kits part of their tech transfer plan
- the J-10 is in production, and being domestic, does not need to cost what an imported machine does.
- It also appears that many upgrade projects for Q-5, J-7 and J-8 are dying,
although variants of all three remain in production, in some cases it appears these are to replace attrition, not to increase numbers.
- J-11 work has been able to proceed at a faster rate due to absorbning some SU-27 technologies
- the use of the Cincinnatti 5 axis lathe that was redirected from commercial production (as stipulated on the end user certificate) has managed to deliver sufficient components.

The Russians are apparently suspicious that the China has more Su-27's than kitted for, as they know that various production parts were ordered internally "outside" of cycle.

Various sources have provided this info, including China specialists and Russians weapons specialists.

[adsH]

i don't like the idea of number is superiority, i like a small easily up-datable Dynamic high-tech Force multiplier Platforms, which have low downtime and increased automation to cut ground crew numbers.
if china has 600 flankers it would take them along to augment upgrades in them. and AC are useless if they can't stay updated. i have always disliked Flankers. i'm sure the J-10 was built on Western philosophy (israeli contribution) so maintenance and updates would be the strong points in AC, I bet the Downtime is low too. the flanker can still offer alot to its users but dancing maneuvers is not what is always required in current war themes.

[gf0012-aust]

Privately the Russians are livid as the Chinese have breached all the conventions of defence contracts. The fact that it was done close to the half way mark is considered to be very poor form.

The winner out of this will be India, as she should be able to negotiate as a riposte.

This will also make other nations make more watertight contracts in anticipation of similar behaviour if they sell. The fact that Germany has deemed that it will continue it's agreement not to sell weapons to China will effectively also lock France out as well (EU agreements).

China doesn't have 600 Flankers, she has 95 officially. Unofficial estimates are that she has 220 that have been built in total (125 covertly)
For the mission that China says she needs, the Mig 29 is regarded as the better platform. (as India has already determined)

[highsea]

- the use of the Cincinnatti 5 axis lathe that was redirected from commercial production (as stipulated on the end user certificate) has managed to deliver sufficient components.Just a clarifyer on this. This may be the Cincinatti-Lamb 5-axis Stretch Press rather than a lathe.

In the early 90's, China entered into a joint venture agreement with McDonnell Douglas for the production of civilian aircraft. In 1993, CATIC purchased this machine from MD, supposedly for this JV project. The end-user certificate stipulated that the machine was to be installed in a plant outside of Beijing, but it was diverted to Nanchang. This was verified by US satellite photos. This U.S. made 5-axis stretch press is reported to be making the J-11.

Incidentally, MD was fined $2.1 Million USD over the sale.

On a related note, if the reports can be believed about the WS-10A, then China is no longer dependent on Russia for the AL-31F engines. So maybe China has decided that they have the capability to build the J-10's and J-11's without any further outside help?

[Number1azn365]

The reason they have stopped the production is rumors have it that China .....
Vremya Novostej quoted a source in the Russian delegation at Airshow China-2004 that opened on Monday, Nov. 1, as saying the Chinese side had requested the Su-27SK fighter jets be equipped with additional guided anti-ship missiles. However, this model of fighter jets was not designed to attack targets at sea.

Representatives of the Sukhoi construction bureau presented the new model of Su-27 fighter jet — Su-27SKM at the airshow. This plane could satisfy all the Chinese requirements, because it is equipped with guided “air-to-sea” missiles. However, it is unclear whether this new modification of Su jet will be delivered to China in the near future.

JUST TO LET U KNOW I'M NEW TO THE FORUMS :D:

[adsH]

i doubt Russia would want to sell any more Advance Jets to PLAAF, they obviously don't have a moral centre, they seam to breach contracts as it suites them and they seam to steal what ever makes there ends meet. they do seam to be self sufficent at this time since J-11 is going well and J-10 is in pre-production stages J-9 is going through pre production stages too.

[gf0012-aust]

Just a clarifyer on this. This may be the Cincinatti-Lamb 5-axis Stretch Press rather than a lathe.

In the early 90's, China entered into a joint venture agreement with McDonnell Douglas for the production of civilian aircraft. In 1993, CATIC purchased this machine from MD, supposedly for this JV project. The end-user certificate stipulated that the machine was to be installed in a plant outside of Beijing, but it was diverted to Nanchang. This was verified by US satellite photos. This U.S. made 5-axis stretch press is reported to be making the J-11.

Incidentally, MD was fined $2.1 Million USD over the sale.


Thanks for the tech correction and fill in. I do that all the time wrt the Cincinnatti - I guess it must be one of those terms that I always "block" on. ;)

As for your last comment about J-10's and J-11's, the view from a few people I know and trust (and who should be in a position to know) is exactly what you've mentioned.

Apparently some of the Russians are "filthy" about this. These people I know worked with the Russians when Boeing did a refurb of the Tu-144 a few years back. So they have a reasonably close working relationship.

[Londo Molari]

i doubt Russia would want to sell any more Advance Jets to PLAAF, they obviously don't have a moral centre, they seam to breach contracts as it suites them and they seam to steal what ever makes there ends meet. they do seam to be self sufficent at this time since J-11 is going well and J-10 is in pre-production stages J-9 is going through pre production stages too.
No country has a moral centre. What J-9?

[adsH]

londo do yo want an Iso standard for the moral center, International copy rights would do !! you can't just steal someone's idea and profit from it, its immoral, how would you like it if someone stole some of your graphics work and made a profit on it!!

J-9 a designation for JF-17.

[SABRE]

Does this mean tht China will also take its hands off from SU-30/35/37

[ajay_ijn]

i doubt Russia would want to sell any more Advance Jets to PLAAF, they obviously don't have a moral centre, they seam to breach contracts as it suites them and they seam to steal what ever makes there ends meet. they do seam to be self sufficent at this time since J-11 is going well and J-10 is in pre-production stages J-9 is going through pre production stages too.

They can't do that becoz Russia has the largest defence deals with china and a very close defence cooperation.
And russia defence projects badly need funds which chinese can provide.

[gf0012-aust]

They can't do that becoz Russia has the largest defence deals with china and a very close defence cooperation.
And russia defence projects badly need funds which chinese can rovide.

Actually, Russia has a closer relationship with India. China does not get access to the same level of missile technology, does not get access to latter airframes, does not get co-operative design work, does not get co-operative work on space programmes etc....

Russia might need the money, but India as their main ally for 40+ years will continue to get the better grade platforms and technology.

[redsoulja]

yup, india does get the better russian weapons, and also since the states have taken away sanctions on high technology transfer, maybe the sates will give india better tech if their relationship lasts a decade atleast (not sure bout that)
but china already has people capable of taking tech in the states that take it our of mags and anything they can find, china's ability to illegally harvest tech info is amazing

[muslim282]

3 strong possibilities

1. China is now self sufficient in making the SU27,s and hence dosen,t need russia.

2. The J10 is far more capable.

3. China does not see the SU27 as a capable foe against the likes of Taiwanese F16,s, Mirages and possibly future technologies.

Feed back welcome !

[gf0012-aust]

3 strong possibilities

1. China is now self sufficient in making the SU27,s and hence dosen,t need russia.

2. The J10 is far more capable.

3. China does not see the SU27 as a capable foe against the likes of Taiwanese F16,s, Mirages and possibly future technologies.

Feed back welcome !

all three points have come back fairly persistently in the traffic I've been seeing. and they are from sources that are consistently cautious.

the main variation is yr pt 2. The J-10 is seen as being a better price competitor with acceptable build costs.

the Su-27 model they have cannot be wired for ASM's - so it is a restricted strike platform.

[redsoulja]

gary whats's ASM?? its anti surface missiles right???
lol so many abbreviations :help :?: :?:

[highsea]

ASM=Air to Sea Missile

[redsoulja]

thanx highseas lol
me i forgot

[corsair7772]

I think the possibilty that china has indigenised the J-11 and doesnt need the russians anymore is a lot more credible than the rest. Think about it. The guys have been chasin all over the globe for this aircraft during the entire 1990s and go to the length of gettin co production rights, upgrade packages and later variants and lets not forget, constantly trying to integrate its arsenal on these fighters. The WS-10, the new radar, the recently cracked source code it all makes sense to me. All they need to do now is to make their own variants and improvements but i dont think any of this is happening soon as the chinese need the rest of the russian arms unless they decide to count on the french lifting the arms embargoe:idea2

[gf0012-aust]

the recently cracked source code it all makes sense to me.

This is another one of those urban myths that still persists. The code hasn't been broken - if they had you would see their current Su-27's geared up for ASM's - and they certainly wouldn't be looking for latter models as they could continue to build other batches with ASM capability..

It's a good story - but it's a fairy story. This recent issue of production freezes confirms that.


unless they decide to count on the french lifting the arms embargoe:idea2

Not going to happen. Germany has just voted to continue the embargo. As Germany is the other major lead player in the EU, and as there is a considerable majority of the EU who want to maintain an embargo on China - then France cannot go against other EU members. France cannot act outside of the collective - no matter how much they may want to. Germany is also Frances only major friend in the EU at the moment, so she can't risk alienating her either.

game, set and match against Chirac.