Siachen - The World´s Highest Battlefield

[yasin_khan]

The Siachen Glacier (Siachen meaning "Black Rose" in Balti), discovered in 1907, is the world´s longest glacier outside the polar regions. It also holds another and less benignant record: the hither-to-fore uninhabited, unexplored and relatively unknown icy-caped region has become the highest battlefield in the world, where Pakistani and Indian troops are entrenched against each other.
The Siachen measures approximately 75km in length and 4.8km in width, and rises to about 4,800m. The glacier originates near the Indra Koli Pass on the Pakistan-China border, about 70km southeast of K-2 (Chogori), the second highest peak in the world; From here it runs along the Saltoro Range in a southeasterly direction till it turns into the Nubra River near Dzingrulma, a small village in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) near Ladakh.
The glacier is flanked by the Saltoro Range to the west and can be approached from Khapalu, a Balti town in the area. Another access is along the Nubra River, ascending from south to northwest in Indian-occupied Ladakh. The historic Saltoro Pass is flanked by high mountains, of which the Saltoro Kangri (a Balti word meaning "peak") at 7,740m is the most prominent.
The Saltoro Pass, also known as Bilafond La ("Pass of the Butterflies") has a unique history. In early 14th century, it was traversed by the Muslim saint Syed Ali Hamadani, who traveled from Kashmir through Shigar to Kashgar in Central Asia, spreading Islam en route. In the 16th century, a Turkish Sultan, Abu Sayid, invaded Ladakh from China through this pass. Domination of these strategic passes is a key to control the surrounding areas. The Saltoro Range inside Pakistan provides access to Siachen through five passes, i.e., Sia La (7,300m), Bilafond La (6,160m), Gyong La (5,640m), Yarma La (6,100m) and Chulung La (5,800m). These heights and passes, remain snowbound throughout the year.

[yasin_khan]

The Roots Of The Conflict
The current conflict over Siachen Glacier is part of the bitter, unresolved dispute between Pakistan and India over Kashmir - a dispute which dates back to the independence of the two states in Agust 1947 as a result of the partition of the Indian sub-continent based on Muslim and Hindu majority populations. The Siachen issue arose over the interpretation of the precise direction of the line of control beyond grid point NJ 9842 as it turns through the ice-covered area of northern Kashmir. In the Karachi Agreement (27 July 1949), it was specified that the line would move "north to the glaciers" from Khor, the last identified location.
In April 1984, the Indian Army in an operation code-named MEGHOOT ("Cold Messenger") airlifted a battalion from the Kumaon Regiment and Ladakh Scouts onto the glacier, and a platoon on each of the two key northern passes, Bilafond La and Sia La, in the Saltoro Range just west of Siachen.
As Siachen Glacier is an integral part of Baltistan, a region in Pakistan's Northern Areas, Pakistan responded quickly to forestall Indian agression and foil the Indian attempt at using the passes over glacier to invade and occupy more territory. The Indian occupation of Siachen Glacier also threatens the Karakoram Highway (the old "Silk Route"), which is a major road linking Pakistan to China at the Khunjerab Pass. By its strong resolve and determination Pakistan has thus prevented future Indian aggression in the region. Tracing back the annals of history, Siachen has always been part of Pakistan since independence in 1947. Mountaineering and trekking expeditions to the Siachen area routinely applied for, and obtained authorization by the government of Pakistan. The renowed American journalist, Martin A. Sugarman in his book "Siachen - War Above the Clouds" quotes many examples and authorities which prove Pakistan's possession and its claims over the area. According to Mr Sugarman, "As early as 1957, the imperial College of London asked Pakistani authorities for permission to send an expedition to Siachen. Many other international expeditions, including one by an Austrian team (in 1961) and three by Japanese groups (in 1962, 1975 and 1976), sought Pakistani authorization to visit Siachen's nearby mountain peaks and glaciers. In addition, many international mountaineering and trekking journals and guidebooks refer to Pakistan as the governmental authority in the Siachen area".
American and British maps and atlases including the Britannica Atlas, the National Geographic Society's Atlas of the World, The Times Atlas of the World, and the University of Chicago's Historical Atlas of South Asia" - show the Ceasefire Line/Line of Control running from NJ 9842 in a straight path northeastward to the Karakoram Pass on the Chinese border, with Siachen Glacier clearly inside Pakistan".
In addition, Sir Own Dixon, first UN Representative to India and Pakistan, indicated in his comprehensive report on Kashmir to the Security Council in 1950 that Siachen Glacier fell within the northern Areas of Pakistan. The highly regarded account was including in a book published in 1958 under the title "Essential Documents and Notes in the Kashmir Dispute", by the Indian writer P.L. Lakhanpal, who supported Dixon's findings. More evidence to back Pakistani claims comes from prominent Indian defence analyst Ravi Rikhye, who in his 1982 book "The Fourth Round: Indo-Pak War 1984", includes a map showing the Ceasefire Line runnig northeastward to the Karakoram Pass on the Chinese border, again putting Siachen Glacier clearly inside Pakistani territory. Another important book "The Western Front: Indo-Pakistan War 1971", published in India in 1984 by retired LtGen K.P. Candeth (a former commander of India's Western Command), includes several maps supporting Pakistani claims.

[yasin_khan]

Operating In An Hostile Environment
Ever since the Indian aggression in 1984, soldiers of the Pakistan Army stand vigil against invasion in areas characterized by a very hostile enviroment: high and vast mountains and large glacial expanses; altitudes of around 6,000m and above; temperatures that fall to -50°C in winters, further accentuated by the wind chill factor; frequent and harsh blizzards that blow away, separate or bury tents, stores and shelters. In these areas, traditional measures for security and information cannot be carried out because men and equipment cannot be carried out because men and equipment cannot move about freely. Traditional solutions and practices as regards weapons, equipment and doctrines are unsuitable, for nowhere else in the world have such conditions been encountered. Military operations take on completely new dimensions, further compounded by the effects of high altitude and a deepening sense of isolation.
The gradients in this region are extremely steep and the valleys very narrow. Vast glaciers, which give birth to fast-flowing streams and rivers, are hemmed in the valleys. The glaciers are the only avenues of movement along their medial moraines; these routes, however, are only fit for foot movement as loose snow and numerous crevasses make cross-country movement almost impossible. Snowfall during winters and the melting of ice durring summers cause continuous changes on the glacial surface and within it. Due to extremely low temperatures and frequent storms and blizzards, survival is possible only with special clothing, equipment and accommodation. Summers are very mild, and altitudes above 4,500m remain snow-bound throughout the year.
The most striking feature of high altitudes is the glacier, with its crevasses and mounds of snow, rock and ice. These glaciers are formed by accumulated snow which inches down the valleys to some 1,200m below the snow line. Though apparently inert, glaciers move at a steady pace , bringing in continuous changes on their surface, pushing up boulders and rocks 4.5-6m in diameter, and creating crevasses as deep and deadly as the depth of the glacier itself. Above the glaciers, on the steep slopes of surrounding mountains, avalanches occur frequently, often without warning. Apart from natural causes (breaking of tension within the snow structure or rise in temperatures), avalanches can also be initiated by aircraft breaking the sound barrier, or heavy weapons firing, or helicopters flying close to the mountain sides.
Jeepable tracks are available only up to the snouts of some of the important glaciers; beyond them the stores are supplies are handled either by helicopters or by porters. Because of steep gradients, frequent hairpin bends and road-cutting across sheer cliffs, the driving is not only strenuous and hazardous, but extremely time consuming. A vehicle may cover about 80 kilometers in five to six hours; a convoy may take about ten to twelve hours for the same distance. The slopes of the mountains being unstable, the area is subject to frequent slides, thus severing road communications for days. This is especially more pronounced during the snow-melting and monsoon seasons.
Foot movement is equally slow and fatiguing. To traverse about 25km beyond 4,200m requires fice to six days of walking. On ice surfaces its is even slower and cumbersome, with speed reduced to 100m in 15-20 minutes with two-three minutes rest after every five minutes. Beyond 5,400m, more frequent halts for rest become necessary; a person not properly acclimatized takes much longer, and is always a liability for the group. Altitude also has a telling effect on the porters who can barely manage a 15-20kg load beyond 5,400m - and that too with a day/two days rest after each trip. A soldier's combat load also has to be correspondingly reduced, with the attendant loss of operational efficiency and selfreliance.
Helicopter operations are also adversely affected. Due to the rarefied atmosphere, varying temperatures and unpredictable wind conditions, the lift capability and serviceability of helicopters and greatly reduced. Only light helicopters can be used beyond 4,500m; an ALOUETTE, for example, can just deliver about 40kg up to 6,100m in summer and about 80kg in winter - and this while operating at its extreme capacity. Evacuation of casualties is another nightmare, requiring frequent turnover to avoid pilot fatigue.
Since these areas are mostly inaccessible, maps are highly inaccurate, which of course means more reliance on physical reconnaissance either by patrols or by helicopters. This, however, is not always possible; when the sky is overcast and the clouds are very low, visibility becomes severely restricted, and similarity of terrain makes recognition of features extremely difficult. In blizzards, snowfalls and bad weather the visibility is further reduced (down to a few meters), severely curtailing movement, target engagement and operation of helicopters. At an average, these conditions prevail for seven out of ten days during winter.

[yasin_khan]

Harsh Winter Conditions
Winter conditions present a whole series of challenges beyond reduced visibility. Temperatures drop to as low as -40°C in non-glaciated areas and -60°C in glaciated areas. Beyond 5,400m, temperatures as low as -70°C to -80°C have been experienced. The wind in the valleys can blow at 70-80 knots, accentuating the wind chill factor. At heights, these winds take the form of blizzards that bury tents, shelters and weapons emplacements under heaps of snow. Blizzards lasting for over two-three days and burying shelters under 2.5-3m of snow are not an uncommon phenomenon.
Extremely low temperatures adversely affect the physical well-being of troops and have pronounced psychological implications. Slight carelessness or lack of proper clothing results in frostbite within a matter of minutes, at times ultimately needing amputations. Prolonged isolation and confinement to shelters during snowfalls and blizzards, weighs heavily on the nerves of the men. Continuous loss of fluid through perspiration and reduced fluid intake, can lead to kidney failure if not checked in time. Light clothing, however warm enough to beat the freezing cold, is essential. By the same token, snow tents are fine for short-duration halts or for patrols needing overnight stay away from the base; however, for prolonged stays pre-fabricated shelters with proper insulation are needed. The shelters have to be strong, yet light enough to be frequently dug out and reassembled after a snowstrom.
Living at high altitudes exposes soldiers to henceforth uncommon ailments, including most particularly pulmonary and/or cerebral oedema. Both occur as a result of the lack of oxygen at heights and increased activity; pulmonary oedema is quite common, but not very serious if treated in time, while cerebral oedema is invariably fatal, though fortunately less commom. In the former, death can occur due to lung failure and in the latter, due to brain damage if the victim is not evacuated in time. Another common but not very serious ailment is high altitude sickness resulting in vomiting, headache and fatigue. Psychological effects include a tendency towards intolerance and acute mental depression.
The standard and effective curve for the above ailments is to bring the patient below 4000m. That, however, is not without problems - even without considering a situation of military conflict. To bring down one casualty from 6,100m to 5,400m requires a party of five-six persons and normally takes six to eight hours - while for any such casualty, time is at premium. Due to biological changes in human blood and extremely low temperatures, many drugs lose their potency and effect. More casualities occur in these areas as a result of natural hazards than through other reasons.
Extremely low temperatures also have their effects on weapons, munitions and equipment. Experience reveals sluggishness in the cyclic operation of weapons, malfunctioning due to freezing of lubricants, and breakage due to brittleness. Munitions - especially mortar bombs, rockets and recoilless rifle projectiles - tend to behave erratically, a phenomenon attributable to the rarefied atmosphere. Formation of fog close to automatic weapons restricts visibility and prevents their continuous use. Food is another aspect which is seriously affected due to the high altitudes and extreme cold. Loss of appetite or aversion to the same type of food for days on end, seriously affects the morale.
Outlook
The Indian intransigence over Siachen in 1984, forced Pakistan to defend its territorial integrity. Lately, however, having found the human and financial cost of maintaining its troops there unmanageable, the Indians have reportedly been making diplomatic moves to persuade Pakistan to disengage from Siachen. Pakistan, however, maintains that Siachen has always been part of Pakistan; hence, India should vacate the area, as it was the aggressor to occupy a portion of it back in 1984.

[mysterious]

[Admin Edit: Repharase it, in better, much softer terms.]

[srirangan]

Yes ofcourse. And thanks for the flame. You so speak the truth. :roll

[mysterious]

Negate what I said 'if' you can! All the attacks India has launched on Pakistan were 'in fact' sneak attacks. :smokingc:

[srirangan]

India believes that the entire PoK and the Askai Chin is rightfully Indian. We have a historically signed treaty of accession. What you see as agression is for us taking back what was ours. We can go on arguing about this endlessly, but atleast I have show the class not to flame the Pakistani's unlike you who argues like small girls hurling insults at India and the "sneak attacks" at each oppurtunity. Show some maturity.

[dabrownguy]

Off topic I believe that Pakistan tried the first attack. The second was because Pakistan was massing troops correct? Third one was on India's behalf in favor of the Bengalis. 4th one was Pakistans sneak attack.

[syeduzair]

India believes that the entire PoK and the Askai Chin is rightfully Indian. We have a historically signed treaty of accession. What you see as agression is for us taking back what was ours. We can go on arguing about this endlessly, but atleast I have show the class not to flame the Pakistani's unlike you who argues like small girls hurling insults at India and the "sneak attacks" at each oppurtunity. Show some maturity.

Just tell the truth, tell every body what india believes, the whole subcontinent is rightfully Indian, India is the only country in the world who got problems with each of her neighbour, I dont need to mention, even India got problems with Indonesia and Portogaul. simply it is never ending lust of land.

[neel24neo]

Just tell the truth, tell every body what india believes, the whole subcontinent is rightfully Indian, India is the only country in the world who got problems with each of her neighbour, I dont need to mention, even India got problems with Indonesia and Portogaul. simply it is never ending lust of land.


you are deluded.i donot know why pakistanis still beleive india wants to take over pakistan badly.as for kashmir,it is a different issue.and how in the world you came into the conclusion that india is the only country with border problems with neighbours????as for portugal,goa is part of india(if you are going to argue that goa was a portuguese colony and that portugal had "right" over goa,then remember that pakistan was also a colony).we used all diplomatic channels with portuguese,who arrogantly refused,unlike the french(who gracefully left pondicherry,karaikal and mahe).thats when we took over goa.as for troubles with indonesia,andaman nicobar islands belong to india and we wouldnt give up an inch of our land on faulty claims.afterall who doesnt have trouble with indonesia in that region.why would singapore,malaysia,australia and newzealand form alliance.india doesnt want any more land but dont ever dream of taking our land from us.

[syeduzair]

[/quote]
you are deluded.i donot know why pakistanis still beleive india wants to take over pakistan.as for kashmir,it is a different issue.and how in the world you came into the conclusion that india is the only country with border problems with neighbours????as for portugal,goa is part of india(if you are going to argue that goa was a portuguese colony and that portugal had "right" over goa,then remember that pakistan too was a colony).we used all diplomatic channels with portuguese,who arrogantly refused,unlike the french(who gracefully left pondicherry,karaikal and mahe).thats when we took over goa.as for troubles with indonesia,andaman nicobar islands belong to india and we wouldnt give up an inch of our land on faulty claims.afterall who doesnt have trouble with indonesia in that region.why would singapore,malaysia,australia and newzealand form alliance.india doesnt want any more land but dont ever dream of taking our land from us.[/quote]

That is what I am telling you my friend, where ever there is a piece of land it belongs to india. Its only india who got the right to grab any one's land.
let me know if Kashmir is a different issue then what about Hyderabad, Junagarh, Manawar, Mangrol. come on lets see the see the faces of indian politicians you will find aggression.

[neel24neo]

That is what I am telling you my friend, where ever there is a piece of land it belongs to india. Its only india who got the right to grab any one's land.
let me know if Kashmir is a different issue then what about Hyderabad, Junagarh, Manawar, Mangrol. come on lets see the see the faces of indian politicians you will find aggression
well friend,these places werent where ever.they were within indian union.and dont tell me that pakistan didnt try to win over hyderabad.you even tried to woo the maharajah of travancore(i do not know whether you have heard of the place).india doesnt place claims on lands where ever.

[india2020]

What problems?and Portugal...........what next would u cook up...........India ocuupied parts of the US?

[insas556]

Negate what I said 'if' you can! All the attacks India has launched on Pakistan were 'in fact' sneak attacks. :smokingc:

sneaky :roll well i suppose if pakistan would do it it would be aggresive patrolling, pre-emption, taking the initiative etc etc.

the delusion of a martial and noble pakistan :roll , seeking a straight fight with the cunning "Hindoo" "bania" (derog terms , using them for illustration) never ceases in pakistan.Fantasy and dreams, yaeh hard to give them up.

why don't you negate this, sneaking in for Pakistan goes a long way back.

Sometime in the late fifties an organisation controlled by a civil intelligence agency was created to train Kashmiris in handling explosives, espionage, sabotage and the creation of a infra-structure for supporting a guerrilla war in Kashmir. This organisation caused a lot of explosions in Kashmir, mostly in open fields and by late 1964 claimed that the infra-structure for supporting an uprising had been created.

Major General Akhtar Malik, accepting the existence of an infra-structure to support a guerrilla organisation, proceeded to train a force to operate in the Indian-held Kashmir to create a situation which would lead to a general uprising, the operation was code named Gibraltar'. Ten forces', about five hundred men each, called Khalid, Tariq, Qasim, Salahuddin, Ghaznavi, Khilji, Murtuza, Babar, Nusrat and Sikandar were organised. The personnel were taken from the villages of Azad Kashmir, NCOs were from the Azad Kashmir and the Pakistan Army, soldiers and NCOs who had served in the SSG and left the Army were called up, the company command level had some officers from the SSG and from the Pakistan Army, force' command was by Azad Kashmir Army officers as it was supposed to be a Kashmiri operation. The training of Gibraltar Force started in March 1965 at Kotli, Mongburji near Rawlakot, Shinkiari and Ratu in Gilgit. The training was to finish in June but was extended to July because of the Rann of Kutch disengagement.

http://www.defencejournal.com/april98/wayitwas3.htm

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/sept/grand-slam.htm

[mysterious]

I never said Pakistan didn't use sneak tactics (guess you hafta deal with your foe in the same way that it treats you). What can I say, we learnt it from the Indians! ;) From the moment India sneakily annexed Junagarh, Hyderabad and other princely states (through military forces) whom either declared independance or acession to Pakistan, the Pakistani generals and politicians already got to know of some ill-intentions across the border (thank God) and counter-actions were developed and deployed. :smokingc:

[insas556]

No problems man , we expect nothing less from you.Only remember we do ensure you pay a price.

[mysterious]

We certainly have paid less than you. :smokingc:

[insas556]

We certainly have paid less than you. :smokingc:
we have not lost half of our country nor the best part of Kashmir nor siachen , wonder how the equation is being drawn.

[bomberman]

You guys are so hypocritical! You'r land, jis tarha dil kiya apni land bananay chal paray.Kahmir main accession instrument or Junagardh, Manavadar or Hyderabaad main majority poulation hindu ki basis par.
Why are you guys so goddamned obsessed with Pakistan's stand over kashmir and like.
We are saying the same words you used to annex hyderabad, junagardh and manavader.I know there'll be explosions here on my post cause a dose of the truth always causes gas to those given.

[mysterious]

We certainly have paid less than you. :smokingc:
we have not lost half of our country nor the best part of Kashmir nor siachen , wonder how the equation is being drawn.

Bangladesh wasn't a result of differences on Kashmir (well atleast I'm glad it isnt a part of Pakistan anymore for various reasons). If Kargil reminds Indians of anything, it is that we can take your 'best' parts of Kashmir whenever we want (militarily as it happened during Kargil). You've lost thrice more soldiers on Siachen than us. You hafta pay for 700,000 paramilitaries deployed in Kashmir alone and the high cost of maintaining of Siachen contingent; not us. So for me, you've had to pay a higher price and you continue doing so.

[insas556]

[ Bangladesh wasn't a result of differences on Kashmir (well atleast I'm glad it isnt a part of Pakistan anymore for various reasons).

Strange sentiments for what was once part of Pakistan.The reasons cited for not having bangladesh, often seem like the Guy who has just lost his leg is laughing, when asked why, he says, hey guys i only have to spend money on one shoe.


If Kargil reminds Indians of anything, it is that we can take your 'best' parts of Kashmir whenever we want (militarily as it happened during Kargil). You've lost thrice more soldiers on Siachen than us. You hafta pay for 700,000 paramilitaries deployed in Kashmir alone and the high cost of maintaining of Siachen contingent; not us. So for me, you've had to pay a higher price and you continue doing so.[/quote]

With the way our economy is growing, expenditure every year becomes less of a problem.In any case looking down from Siachen and relaxing by the Dal is a priceless feeling :)

As for Kargil the only thing it reminds us is,

i) The Pakistan Army can only think Tactically.
ii) The Spat betweet the Political leadership and the Pakistan Army showed that while the Pakistan Army has to fight INDIA and the Indian Army has to only fight the Pakistan Army.

[mysterious]

Bangladesh scenrio is not like the one you described; its more like I'm ok with one leg cuz the other one had cancer and could've endangered my life (so I'm ok with its amputation). Economy doesn't justify the amount of human life you lose there and people in the government always point out that there is no need for military to be there at Siachen when it should be a non-militarized zone. As far as Kargil goes, your point number one is the one I talked about earlier and said, we only learnt sneak tactics from you. Secondly, at the time of Kargil, we had a traitor sitting in the political leadership which is not the case now; so the next time you come around, you'll be fighting not just the PA but Pakistan as a whole and cohesive unit. Anywayz, whether Pakistan Army was fighting India or Indian Army; still got their aims achieved. :smokingc:

[insas556]

nywayz, whether Pakistan Army was fighting India or Indian Army; still got their aims achieved. :smokingc:[/quote]


he lives lost are for the nation and it also in a large part which drives us on. It has been so for 20 odd years and we will go on as long as it takes.If you guys are more comfortable in your positions, good for you , and stay there.
Quite a few people including in Pakistan are still mystified as too what was achieved, if it was so why did the pakistani Army climb down? Mountain sickness, a sojourn up a mountain, a good Photo-op completed, the sound of music, why climb up , take position only to vacate it!

Any way , what we know is you guys are no longer up there and thats it.Its your Job to find silver lining in defeat, perhaps it was another operation due to medical reasons and poor Nawaz was amputated.Boy something is sure cariconegic, in the Pakaistan leadership. Yahya Khan, Bhutto, Zia Ul Haq , all casualties, amputees perhaps.


( BTW my compliments to a certain Ghost who seems to be nibbling up parts of my posts )
BTW if cancer is detected early and treated well its curable.

[WebMaster]

insas, pleasure is all mine. We want to stay the course with the topic and not have to deal with unnecessary comments that are only meant to defame rather than represent a debatable point.

[Pathfinder-X]

Web, it seems that myst did pass out the flam bait first, here it is.

The Indians were and always will be agressors using sneak attacks to acheice gains against their enemy. They cant succeed in a fair and frontal fight if history has taught us anything.

it's nothing against myst but I think we shouldn't just point at insas and let him take all the blame.

[dabrownguy]

:cry
I am for a withdrawl of Sachian. But I don't trust the present Pakistani government or army. Musharf has lied to the former Presidents face right? What will stop Pakistan from using Sachian as gate towards Kashimer as in the Kargil conflict with the emty winter bunkers?

[insas556]

Web, it seems that myst did pass out the flam bait first, here it is.

The Indians were and always will be agressors using sneak attacks to acheice gains against their enemy. They cant succeed in a fair and frontal fight if history has taught us anything.

it's nothing against myst but I think we shouldn't just point at insas and let him take all the blame.

thanks, yeah the things which are said about India and let pass does get me worked up; will try to cool down if others do to.

[WebMaster]

Took care of it Path, now lets move on.

Thats why REPORT THIS POST TO ADMIN link is there. Instead of replying to flame baits, let ME know. Please provide LINK to the EXACT post!

Exact link can be found between here :

Posted: [link] Thu Sep 23, 2004

Enjoy!

[mysterious]

Any way , what we know is you guys are no longer up there and thats it.

I guess you missed the report by the Indian Army a couple of months back which said Pakistan never vacated 'two important' peaks after Kargil and are still under Pakistani control which the Indian forces were unable to take back. :smokingc:

[india2020]

Ever heard of google,go search for these peaks and ull know that they are on the pakistani side of the LOC and the Indian army has strict instructions not to cross the LOC.These peaks are and were always in pakistani control and were never taken from India. :cop

[insas556]

Any way , what we know is you guys are no longer up there and thats it.

I guess you missed the report by the Indian Army a couple of months back which said Pakistan never vacated 'two important' peaks after Kargil and are still under Pakistani control which the Indian forces were unable to take back. :smokingc:


I probably did, would be helpful to see them.
our guys seem to be placing it here:

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-07a-04.asp

[mysterious]

Looks like a poor escape goat to me! All the failures pointed at one person and he's out of the ball game. Funnily enough, the entire world marks Pakistani Kashmir as "Azad Kashmir" on their maps except India which keeps on whining about "Pak-Occupied Kashmir". :onfloorl:

[srirangan]

Ahem, correction to a false claim. The entire world marks it as "Indian Administered Kashmir" and "Pak Administered Kashmir".

[mysterious]

Wishful thinking. ;)

[srirangan]

Actual fact. CIA Factbook ;)
Well ofcourse the CIA is run by jewish and hindu freemasons .. right? :roll

[mysterious]

CIA factbook, which keeps changing colors and stances corresponding to changes in US strategic interests and regional goals telling you how the US perceives the world map to be. Who ever said that CIA factbook represented the maps that the 'entire world' uses? :roll

[srirangan]

Yea ofcourse .. silly freemason jewish hindu CIA US Bush conspiracy isn't it? Tell me which is the source that the entire world uses? There ain't no single definitive source.

[mysterious]

I've already rested my case. I have better people to argue issues here with.

[gf0012-aust]

CIA factbook, which keeps changing colors and stances corresponding to changes in US strategic interests and regional goals telling you how the US perceives the world map to be. Who ever said that CIA factbook represented the maps that the 'entire world' uses?

Funnily enough, it's good enough to be ordered in hard bound copies by powers such as the CIS and Mainland China.

I've seen a copy being lugged around by Chinese Embassy officials in a conference in Canberra.

If you've seen the hardbound copy, you will realise that it does not reflect a political point of view skewed to a particular philosophy - and considering the fact that common sources are provided by host governments and entities such as the UN - then it's a bit hard to see it as an extension of US political policy generation.

People often quote JDW in here when Janes has made some awful factual stuffups - and has done so ever since their first big pearler in 1911.

[syeduzair]

Yea ofcourse .. silly freemason jewish hindu CIA US Bush conspiracy isn't it? Tell me which is the source that the entire world uses? There ain't no single definitive source.


Admin: one-liner deleted as per the rules.

[Pathfinder-X]

Guys the CIA fact book is more of statistic data rather than intel reports on nations. It gives a very brief introduction of a country's history and political system. Other than those, it's all just data, like GDP, population.

[mysterious]

Anywayz, the best way to solve Siachen is to demilitarize it and leave it as a no-man's land. Both countries would benefit from the resources freed up as a result of that. :smokingc:

[srirangan]

India fears a repeat of Kargil type intrusion by the PA, hence Defence Minister Natwar Signh has already denied a pull out by the Indian forces.

[mysterious]

Kargil was India's earlier Siachen mischeif payback. Guess the score over there is pretty much settled and the discussion is back on the table with both sides keen on demilitarizing the area to a point where it takes the same amount of time (days to be precise) to get to the glacier by each side. Lets hope some progress is made this time round.

[srirangan]

Well the diff betw Kargil and Siachen was that in Kargil Pak violated the Shimla agreement and crossed the LoC; whereas the LoC is not defined for the Siachen region hence India broke nothing when she entered the glacier, and it was strategic entry to cut of a direct link betw China and Pak in Kashmir.

Kargil also ended up as an embarrasment for the Pak govt, while the Indian govt has pretty much secured its objective in both Kargil and Siachen.

[P.A.F]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FJ01Df05.html

Siachen ice slowly melting
By Sultan Shahin

NEW DELHI - The world's most absurd war on the world's highest battlefield, 6,000 meters-plus, may soon be over. There are credible reports of a deal to settle the Siachen war having been finalized between Indian and Pakistani leaders, who met in New York last week. This would mark an end to a 20-year battle for an isolated piece of a 6,300 meter high lifeless glacier - Siachen - in the Karakoram Range system of Kashmir near the India-Pakistan border, extending for 78 kilometers across Ladakh and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

Pakistan and India have been fighting for the glacier since 1984, but the bigger enemy they face there is the cold, with temperatures hovering between -30 and -60 degrees Celsius. But despite the high costs of holding onto the icy heights of Saltoro Ridge in terms of manpower, hardware and the logistics of an arduous and long supply line, many in the Indian army are not yet ready to trust Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf not to send his troops in should Indian troops vacate the area. The experience of what happened at the brief skirmish in Kargil in 1999 is difficult to forget.

Musharraf has sought to allay Indian fears that if it withdraws its forces from the Saltoro Ridge, the position it occupied in 1984, Pakistani forces will move in. India occupied the ridge easily, by airdropping its soldiers, but maintained its occupation at great cost in terms of lives lost - mostly fighting bad weather - and money spent. The cost of a loaf of bread that would be less than a rupee in the Kashmir Valley is estimated by the Times of India to be worth Rs10,000 (US$217) by the time it reaches Indian soldiers on Siachen.

Some Indian strategists who oppose the demilitarization of Siachen point to the problem of the verifiability of the redeployment of Indian and Pakistani troops. This would be difficult, even with the aid of the latest high-tech gadgetry being recommended by some Western experts who favor peace in the region.

Strategic experts also point to the fact that it would be well-nigh impossible to retake these positions once Pakistan occupied them. At the moment the position is that Indians cannot come down and the Pakistanis cannot climb up the ridge. After withdrawal, if Pakistan occupied the glacier, the position would be reversed.

Others counter by pointing out that Pakistan simply doesn't have the wherewithal to bear the cost of occupation, about US$1 million a day, particularly when it brings in no corresponding benefit. Hardliners counter this by pointing out that Pakistan's costs of occupation would be much less. The Indian cost of occupation is so high because no natural ground routes connect the Indian side of Kashmir to the Siachen Glacier. So India has to use its air force to drop all of its forces, and helicopters and aircraft to transport all supplies.

Talks signal Siachen thaw
India and Pakistan concluded two days of talks on the Siachen Glacier on Friday with an agreement to hold further discussions on the modalities for disengagement and redeployments of troops. "The two defense secretaries agreed to continue their discussions to resolve the Siachen issue in a peaceful manner," a joint statement issued at the end of the talks said. "Frank and candid discussions were held in a cordial and constructive atmosphere aimed at taking the [peace] process forward."

A senior Indian official, however, denied a Pakistan television report that quoted the Pakistani defense secretary as saying both sides had agreed on the demilitarization of the glacier. The report also said the talks were held on the basis of a 1989 agreement. "They are trying to put their own spin on the issue," the official said. He also called the report "unfortunate". Reliable sources claimed differences continue to remain on the demarcation of the glacier and the "authentication" of maps showing the existing positions of Indian soldiers.

Sources said the Indian side insisted that Pakistan accept the Indian position on the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL). Refusing to accept AGPL, Pakistan on the other hand referred to the positions authenticated by the 1973 Shimla Agreement, saying Indian troops violated the agreement by launching Operation Meghdoot in 1984, which brought most of the area under their control. India claims to have made a preemptive attempt at capturing Siachen for fear that Pakistan would otherwise do so, whereas Pakistan calls it pure aggression and invasion in violation of the Shimla Agreement not to try and change the ground position unilaterally. The problem had started in 1984 when Indians found out Pakistan was giving permission to foreign mountaineers to climb the Siachen heights, igniting fears that Pakistan might capture the glacier.

The two sides also disagreed on the redeployment of troops and on a mechanism to monitor the disengagement. Scared of the Kargil experience, Indians troops sought assurances that Pakistani troops would not "step in" once they withdrew from the glacier. Clearly the Indian side wants a firm guarantee before Indian troops give up their positions.

Demilitarization of Siachen is one of those areas of the India-Pakistan conflict that has always been thought to be easy to resolve. On several occasions there have been reports that the two countries had come to an agreement, and then changed their positions for lack of political will on the part of Indian leaders.

In the present instance the situation appears to be more favorable. Some observers point out that if Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is able to trust President General Pervez Musharraf's promise, India may start withdrawing troops from Siachen soon after Maharashtra state elections on October 13. Some seem to believe that a major deal with Pakistan has been reached in the unprecedented hour-long Manmohan-Musharraf one-to-one meet in New York. This deal is said to include the eventual conversion of the Line of Control that demarcates the Indian and Pakistani areas in the state of Jammu and Kashmir into an international border, with some minor adjustments and rationalization.

If it indeed comes about, the reason for the hurry will be practical as well as political. It would make practical sense to withdraw from Siachen before the onset of winter, the worst and the most dangerous period of the year for Indian troops. On the other side, it will suit Musharraf to have achieved something spectacular before announcing that he is keeping his uniform, if indeed that is what he decides to do - he is constitutionally due to do so by December. It will also suit the ruling Congress Party that leads the coalition government in New Delhi to go into the next polls not with the announcement of an uncertain deal with Pakistan - that is bound to be controversial regardless of what it is - but with the fruits of the deal and its benefits having already become apparent.

A major boost to India-Pakistan trade and progress on a gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan to India, among other economic ties, will be beneficial for both sides, but it will take some time. The Congress leadership also feels that not making peace with Pakistan and continuing with the stalemate on Siachen or the more serious Kashmir issue is no longer an option given the tremendous interest the international community is taking in the matter of establishing peace between the two nuclear powers. But if the present momentum, generated by the previous Atal Bihari Vajpayee government's statesmanship, is lost, it will become very difficult to reignite later. The new government has already taken several months to settle in. Manmohan, primarily an economist, has also taken his time studying the subject, but now must hurry things up.

One important fallout of this feeling is that the prime minister's office is now dealing with the entire gamut of relations with Pakistan and the state of Jammu and Kashmir directly, instead of leaving them with the home and external affairs ministries. This does away with the multiplicity of authority that hampered progress in peace talks with Kashmiri leaders and follows the practice in the previous Congress administration headed by former prime minister Narasimha Rao. Thus, national security adviser and former foreign secretary J N Dixit and internal security adviser and former intelligence bureau chief M K Narayanan emerge as the main point-persons handling Pakistan and Kashmir respectively in close consultation with the prime minister.

The United States, too, sees the Siachen Glacier as a potential starter in breakthroughs between the South Asian rivals. Washington has been pressing both India and Pakistan to come to terms with each other ever since they tested nuclear weapons in 1998, raising fears of Kashmir becoming a nuclear flashpoint. Many in the sub-continent believe that the ongoing peace process is being brokered by the US. Interacting with Indian and Pakistani journalists attending a fellowship on "conflict resolution and non-proliferation" at Albuquerque in New Mexico last week, for instance, US State Department officials repeatedly highlighted their expectation that South Asia will see an easing of tension at the Siachen Glacier.

From battleground to laboratory
Even a confirmed skeptic such as Stephen P Cohen, professor of South Asian affairs at the Brookings Institution, became sentimental while referring to Siachen, "While I am very pessimistic about the [peace] talks process, yet I strongly feel that the two countries should achieve some common ground to save young soldiers dying at the hands of chilling weather." The head of Sandia Laboratory, America's most prestigious nuclear science laboratories, Dr Bringer, even went to the extent of visualizing setting up a joint science center there.

Several non-governmental peace groups are actually considering the establishment of a Siachen peace park, but Bringer believes his approach may go a long way by having a scientific and technological aspect to it. He proposes substitution of the military forces in the region with scientists and engineers (from India and Pakistan) "who would advance the knowledge in science and engineering by operating a high-altitude research station for the study of basic sciences, engineering and human physiology". He argued that his proposal also fulfills the need for a national presence to "help ensure terms of a military disengagement agreement", involving "other regional and international participants and sponsors". This will perhaps also obviate the need for verifying the presence of troops after redeployment.

One of the occasional papers prepared at the cooperative monitoring center of Sandia labs spells out the research missions for the centers, suggesting that they should focus on fields such as astronomy, geology, atmospheric sciences, glaciology, life sciences, physiology and behavioral sciences. Another scientist observed that study of the glacier could lead the two nations to study monsoon patterns to help properly manage the world's largest water reserves. The scientists at Sandia also claim that the proposed center could help better mange the drought situations for the agriculture-based economies of the two countries.

Passionately espousing the cause of demilitarization at Siachen, Bringer referred to the success of the Antarctic Treaty in Washington in 1959, which entered into force in 1961, between the then worst nuclear rivals - the US and the former USSR. Explaining that 39 nations are party to the environmentally friendly treaty, including those seven that originally had laid claim to land of the continent, he said the two South Asian rivals could start from a common research project at Antarctica. He believed that the joint research at the continent would develop the much-needed trust between the two nation's science corps.

"Like the Antarctic continent, Siachen could then be exploited for scientific research primarily by India and Pakistan and maybe other developed nations at a later stage," visualizes the American scholar.

Once Siachen is demilitarized, India and Pakistan can look forward to tackling other and more difficult issues with greater confidence. Musharraf's solemn promise, binding the state of Pakistan and its army to refrain from doing a Kargil at Siachen, presents Manmohan with a great opportunity to demonstrate statesmanship.

[highsea]

The world's most absurd war on the world's highest battlefield That one sentence pretty much says it all. If I was either country, I would be encouraging the other one to hang onto this useless chunk of ice. The attrition alone makes it a losing proposition, especially since nobody can attack anything when they are so desperate to just survive. It's an excellent example of stubbornness winning out over common sense.

[VICTORA1]

Highsea,
It is not a chunk of ice---whosoever has control over that area, has control over the water that comes into pakistan through different rivers. The problem is not a simple one.

[highsea]

I understand the strategic position of the glacier (which isn't really that much, imo), but really, how much control can you have over the runoff? Especially if all your energies are expended just staying alive? I suppose you could blast it to bits, but you don't need troops occupying it to do that. It seems to me that this is more about the tactical advantage of occupying the high ground than controlling the runoff.

[mysterious]

And a lot of it is about personal ego and self esteem and what not. A war for all the wrong reasons I'd say. :cop

[VICTORA1]

Hi,
Almost all of the water flowing into pakistan comes through kashmir----more so from indian held kashmir. Lately india has been building a dam on river chenab, which would create more problems. 30 plus years ago india had build another dam which dried up river ravi. India is using slow strangulation techniques.

[vik1036]

A moving article about soldiering in th ice....
http://home.ripway.com/2004-6/123211/Docs/TheRope.pdf

[P.A.F]

Hi,
Almost all of the water flowing into pakistan comes through kashmir----more so from indian held kashmir. Lately india has been building a dam on river chenab, which would create more problems. 30 plus years ago india had build another dam which dried up river ravi. India is using slow strangulation techniques.


if thats the case then i'm sure pakistan has got methods to grab hold of kashmir by force. they showed a little demenstration a few years back but unfortunately we had to pull back because of the US.

[mysterious]

Already the World Bank is being thought of to be moved in if talks with India on its illegal dams and other hydel projects do no produce any positive results. World Bank is the gauranteer of the Indus Water Treaty and it is its responsibility (if bilateral talks fail) to make India respect the treaty which clearly states that India 'cannot' build dams on rivers alloted to Pakistan!

[insas556]

if thats the case then i'm sure pakistan has got methods to grab hold of kashmir by force. they showed a little demenstration a few years back but unfortunately we had to pull back because of the US.[/quote]
Yeah you are right, the demonstration was''little'' :) I am sure pakistan has plenty of methods to grab Kashmir by force, its been practicing that for half a century now,maybe practice will make perfect ;)
In the meanwhile we continue to see the tri-colour where it was inJammu& Kashmir.

On matter of referring to The WB , international settlement of Treaties, esp of the Riparian nature , are quite long winded and technical. Lets see how good the lawyers are.
I wonder if we can compare this but last time in the Atlantique incident, Pakistan did not get a favourable ruling from the ICJ.