India's Battle Tank Arjun Operationally Useless

[The Watcher]

India's Battle Tanks Arjun Operationally Useless

Aug 25, 2004, 01:33

NEW DELHI: India's defence production authorities handed over the first batch of first five "indigenously-developed" Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) to the Indian army on August-8.

However, according to diplomatic sources, the Indian army chief has expressed skepticism about combat worthiness and operational mobility of the tank.

The main objections raised by the army headquarters are that with its excessive weight and width, the Arjun tank has poor operational mobility.

It will not be possible to rapidly move it from one area of operation to another on the existing tank transporters on our rail network."

Secondly, the Arjun weighs 58.5 tonnes. As such, it outweighs the newly-inducted 46.5 tonnes T-90S Russian MBT by 12 tonnes. "Being heavier than the Russian substitute, it is too heavy to transport over most border bridges in India".

Arjun is not only less manoeuvrable, but also suffers from recurring engine and fire-control-systems problems.

In a phenomenal move, Indian Naval Headquarters has made its deputy chief, Vice-Admiral S V Gopalachari, an OSD and attached him with the naval HQ.

Indian Coast Guard Director-General Suresh Mehta would replace him as the new deputy chief of the Indian Navy.

According to defence analysts, Vice-Admiral Gopalachari had concealed his illness, though he suffered from serve diabetes and other ailments.

Despite being in "low category" and media's criticism of his frail health, the Naval Headquarters had earlier cleared him for promotion as the flag officer in chief of the Southern Command at Kochi.

Now, Vice-Admiral S Bangara (not he) will take over the command at Kochi.

Analysts wonder whether Indian navy's new chief Admiral Arun Prakash would be to weed out the common malaise of pseudo-fitness from his organization.


URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_001791.shtml

[P.A.F]

bad news for india. they should cut the tank down abit and use smaller systems in it so the weight reduces but i don't think india is prepeared to do that as it will cost to much money and that can possibly become a completely new project.

[shankercbe]

'Arjun' has all attributes of excellent tank: Vij
Saturday, August 7 2004 18:50 Hrs (IST)

Chennai: Describing the main battle tank 'Arjun', handed over to the Indian Army in Chennai today (Aug 7, 2004) as having the attributes of an excellent tank, Chief of Army Staff Gen N C Vij said that it was better to have one's own equipment instead of depending on imported ones which would ultimately choke up the supply lines.

Speaking to journalists informally on the sidelines of the function at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, about 30 kms from Chennai, this afternoon, he said import content of the Arjun now around 50 per cent would come down to the affordable level of 20 per cent soon.

'Faster it is done, better it is', he said adding much depended on the accelerated production of more Arjun tanks.

Vij said the five Arjun tanks, now handed over to the Indian Army, would soon have a 'user field trials'. In terms of cost, Arjun was slightly more than the T-90, rolled out early this year from HVF, in Chennai.

The Army would have a judicious mix of T-72, T-90 and Arjun Tanks, he said.

The Chief of Army Staff said, 'We cannot develop such an advanced weapon system without the help and cooperation of the defence forces'.
PTI


http://news.indiainfo.com/2004/08/07/0708arjun.html


now people where did you get this news that the indian army chief says arjun is useless.

[P.A.F]

hey i don't think that source is relyable. looks a bit fishy. give me a relyable source that would convince me ;)

[doggychow14]

this news is old. Arjun was known to be a failure quite a while ago.

[P.A.F]

...which is why no private indian company would like to build them. only 120 or so are to be built

[adsH]

all these reports i'm confused, someone TELL ME WHICH SOURCE IS RELIABLE !!

[The Watcher]

it is too heavy to transport over most border bridges in India".


First india wil have to build some reliable bridges before it can build tanks. :P

[Roger Smith]

this news is old. Arjun was known to be a failure quite a while ago.

Here come the fortune teller ............. doggychow14 :D: predicting the failure of MBT. ;)

[P.A.F]

because it's good for india not to build it. it's just a waste of money ;)

[Roger Smith]

because it's good for india not to build it. it's just a waste of money ;)

In that case India could buy ToT for MBT from USA, Israel or any other country also maybe China! :dance

[tatra]

The problem seems to be size and weight RELATIVE TO T72/T90. Since when are those the standard?

IMHO Arjun is not a crappy failure. So it can't be moved across border bridges ... great, that means it will have to have a defensive role and for that role its size and weight may very well be an asset rather than a liability (just like the WWII Tigers).

[gf0012-aust]

The problem seems to be size and weight RELATIVE TO T72/T90. Since when are those the standard?

IMHO Arjun is not a crappy failure. So it can't be moved across border bridges ... great, that means it will have to have a defensive role and for that role its size and weight may very well be an asset rather than a liability (just like the WWII Tigers).

Agree. The issue is what the doctrine was that influenced the design. Is the design at fault or is it the doctrine expectations.

It's easier to establish a more viable and realistic and useful doctrine than to endlessly criticise the platform.

I think Arjun in its second iteration will be a very different beast. Someone should be examining the RFT to see why there is an operational difference between what was first touted and what has evolved. I would bet london to a brick that the RFT has evolved and changed faster than the tanks design and devleopment. - If thats the case - then it's an issue of poor planning and procurement processes - not poor tank design.

[dabrownguy]

I don't trust the article. Seems like those articles that were made up or writtin by the dumbest reporters.

[gf0012-aust]

I don't trust the article. Seems like those articles that were made up or writtin by the dumbest reporters.

Maybe, but there are known problems with Arjun, hence some of the recent Israeli involvement.

Dumb logistical decisions are typical of a project that falls off the rails (no pun intended), so it doesn't surprise me that there are now publicly declared probs.

I just think that the press goes overboard on stuff they know little about, and then the public gets all excited and treats it as "gospel". The Gripen saga is a good example for Pakistan. The Arjun appears to have the dubious honour of being demonised excessively.

[shankercbe]

hey i don't think that source is relyable. looks a bit fishy. give me a relyable source that would convince me ;)

okay here we go .

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13409

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=240827

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040804/main7.htm

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?date=2004-08-04&usrsess=1&clid=2&id=78608

http://www.123bharath.com/tamilnadu-india-news/index.php?action=fullnews&id=7079

if these dont convince you . then i suggest you come to India on a holiday trip and visit general vij and confirm it yourself :D: ..

[mysterious]

In any case, Watcher's reported article is more recent and gives a to-the-point story!

[tatra]

Here some data to see how Arjun compares to other current MBTs. Obviously, both Arjun's size and weight are within the range that is common for modern Western MBTs. It's got a decent power to weight ratio and relatively low ground pressure (so, should the number for ground pressure be optimistic, the actual ground pressure would still be within the norm)

Arjun mk.1
Length: 10.19 m / --- m (length overall w. gun forward vs. chassis length)
Width: 3.86 m
Height: 2.32 m
Clearance:0.45 m
Weight: 58.5 ton
Engine: 1400 hp
ptw: 23.9 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2

T-90S
Length: 9.53 m / 6.86 m
Width: 3.78 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.5 ton
Engine: 1000 hp
ptw: 21.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

T-72M1
Length: 9.53 m / 6.89m
Width: 3.59 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 41.5 ton
Engine: 780 hp
ptw: 18.8 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.83 kg/cm2

T80U
Length: 9.66 m / 7.01 m
Width: 3.60 m
Height: 2.20 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.0 ton
Engine: 1250 hp
ptw: 27.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

Merkava IV
Length: 9.04 m / 8.78 m
Width: 3.72 m
Height: 2.66 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 65 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 23.1 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Leopard IIA6
Length: 11.29 m / 7.72 m
Width: 3.74 m
Height: 2.79 m
Clearance: 0.49 (rear) - 0.54 (front) m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 24.0 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.93 kg/cm2

Leclerc
Length: 9.87 m / 6.88 m
Width: 3.71 m
Height: 2.53 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 54.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 27.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Challenger II
Length: 11.55 m / 8.33 m
Width: 3.52 m
Height: 2.50 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1200 hp
ptw: 19.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Finally, just for fun:

PzKw VI Tiger (Ausf B. Konigstiger)
Length: 8.5 m / 6.9 m (10.3 m / 7.3 m)
Width: 3.7 m (3.8 m)
Height: 2.9 m (3.1 m)
Clearance: 0.47 m (0.5 m)
Weight: 56 ton (69 ton)
Engine: 600 hp (700 hp)
ptw: 10.7 hp/t (10.3 hp/t)
ground pressure: 1.04 kg/cm2 (1.07 kg/cm2)

[dabrownguy]

Theres only one source on this and its not even confirmed.

[Pathfinder-X]

okay here we go .

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13409

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=240827

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040804/main7.htm

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?date=2004-08-04&usrsess=1&clid=2&id=78608

http://www.123bharath.com/tamilnadu-india-news/index.php?action=fullnews&id=7079

if these dont convince you . then i suggest you come to India on a holiday trip and visit general vij and confirm it yourself :D: ..

Actually if you can post a link without the word India in it or Indian related(like JDW), people will believe you more.

[mysterious]

Here some data to see how Arjun compares to other current MBTs. Obviously, both Arjun's size and weight are within the range that is common for modern Western MBTs. It's got a decent power to weight ratio and relatively low ground pressure (so, should the number for ground pressure be optimistic, the actual ground pressure would still be within the norm)

Arjun mk.1
Length: 10.19 m / --- m (length overall w. gun forward vs. chassis length)
Width: 3.86 m
Height: 2.32 m
Clearance:0.45 m
Weight: 58.5 ton
Engine: 1400 hp
ptw: 23.9 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2

T-90S
Length: 9.53 m / 6.86 m
Width: 3.78 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.5 ton
Engine: 1000 hp
ptw: 21.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

T-72M1
Length: 9.53 m / 6.89m
Width: 3.59 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 41.5 ton
Engine: 780 hp
ptw: 18.8 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.83 kg/cm2

T80U
Length: 9.66 m / 7.01 m
Width: 3.60 m
Height: 2.20 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.0 ton
Engine: 1250 hp
ptw: 27.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

Merkava IV
Length: 9.04 m / 8.78 m
Width: 3.72 m
Height: 2.66 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 65 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 23.1 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Leopard IIA6
Length: 11.29 m / 7.72 m
Width: 3.74 m
Height: 2.79 m
Clearance: 0.49 (rear) - 0.54 (front) m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 24.0 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.93 kg/cm2

Leclerc
Length: 9.87 m / 6.88 m
Width: 3.71 m
Height: 2.53 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 54.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 27.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Challenger II
Length: 11.55 m / 8.33 m
Width: 3.52 m
Height: 2.50 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1200 hp
ptw: 19.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Finally, just for fun:

PzKw VI Tiger (Ausf B. Konigstiger)
Length: 8.5 m / 6.9 m (10.3 m / 7.3 m)
Width: 3.7 m (3.8 m)
Height: 2.9 m (3.1 m)
Clearance: 0.47 m (0.5 m)
Weight: 56 ton (69 ton)
Engine: 600 hp (700 hp)
ptw: 10.7 hp/t (10.3 hp/t)
ground pressure: 1.04 kg/cm2 (1.07 kg/cm2)

Are you trying to tell me that instead of making a tank suitable to subcontinental terrain; India just built Arjun to compete with Western cavalry power? Western tanks are built according to their terrain and so Arjun's features are not exactly what you'd want a tank to have in the terrain that its going to be used.

[shankercbe]

okay here we go .

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13409
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?date=2004-08-04&usrsess=1&clid=2&id=78608


Actually if you can post a link without the word India in it or Indian related(like JDW), people will believe you more.

these sites have nothing to do with india .. anyway if you chose not to believe it and like to live in your own world then nobody can help you.
:P

[Pathfinder-X]

Ok since you like to put it that way.

What operation theatre was Arjun designed for? The mountain terrain in Kashmir? Or the steep cliffs of Tibet? In both these cases Arjun weight would limit its capability in combat. A platoon of infantry has more use than a Arjun company. And before you start bragging about the advanced systems onboard Arjun MK2, think about what kind of operation theatre the system was design for. In this case it doesn't suit in very well with conditions on the most likely battle-fronts. Arjun's weight simply prevent it from being an effective platform in India's situation dispite the massive upgrades and advanced systems on board Arjun.

About your little "living in my own world" part. I've spent four months training in the army. So if you like to count living in the barracks as living in a different world, yeah then I like to live in my world. Otherwise, you are the one who needs help.

[tatra]

Are you trying to tell me that instead of making a tank suitable to subcontinental terrain; India just built Arjun to compete with Western cavalry power? Western tanks are built according to their terrain and so Arjun's features are not exactly what you'd want a tank to have in the terrain that its going to be used.

Not at all. I'm just illustrating that statements like "too heavy" and "too big" are relative: you're always comparing to something, whether it be another tank or tanks (in which case there's the 'western' and the 'eastern' design philosophy) or to a purpose or place (in which case the considerations of terrain come in).

Now, by saying Arjun is too heavy and too big are you trying to tell us that India would never buy a Western tank?

As for western tanks being built for their terrain: do you really think that all of the US (M1) looks the same, do you think the terrain in and arround Israel (Merkava) is similar to that in continental Europe (Challenger II, Leo II, Le Clerc, Ariete) or the US or Korea (K1) or Japan (Type 90) and that there is no difference in terrain between US, Europe and these far eastern countries? Yet the tanks produced in all these countries are similar in size and weight (55-65 tons). That is probably because they were designed, not so much with a particular terrain but with a particular threat in mind, namely Russian or Russian style armor. The weight of the tank is a function of its protection level which in turn is a function of the penetration power and range of the soviet-russian 100-125mm guns on the tanks belonging to the opposition.

[mysterious]

But you cant have that heavy of a tank for India! I'm not going to go on repeating the reasons as to why I say that as they have already been dealth with by a dozen people on this forum in a number of threads.

[shankercbe]

Ok since you like to put it that way.

What operation theatre was Arjun designed for? The mountain terrain in Kashmir? Or the steep cliffs of Tibet? In both these cases Arjun weight would limit its capability in combat. A platoon of infantry has more use than a Arjun company. And before you start bragging about the advanced systems onboard Arjun MK2, think about what kind of operation theatre the system was design for. In this case it doesn't suit in very well with conditions on the most likely battle-fronts. Arjun's weight simply prevent it from being an effective platform in India's situation dispite the massive upgrades and advanced systems on board Arjun.

About your little "living in my own world" part. I've spent four months training in the army. So if you like to count living in the barracks as living in a different world, yeah then I like to live in my world. Otherwise, you are the one who needs help.

i dont forsee any tank battles in the "mountain terrain in kashmir " nor in the steep cliffs of tibet . tanks cannot be effectively used in both of these areas both by india and pakistan or china . ofcourse they will be used in plains. apart from jammu and kashmir punjab,rajasthan and gujarat border pakistan.
i am not very clear about the feasibility of tanks in the indo-china border.and i dont mean to insult your four months training in the army. really i respect army personnel , irrespective of their nationality , but if you can think so much about the feasibility of this tank , then the indian strategists with years of experience in military are clearly no fools either. if the indian army top brass had even a slight doubt about this tank , believe me they wouldnt have accepted it .dont you think they would've tested this tank on the most likely battle-fronts areas to see how it fares ?

and i dont understand this mentality of not trusting the "indian media " . the indian media is world class in every sense . you can ask you pak media friends if you have any !

[tatra]

But you cant have that heavy of a tank for India! I'm not going to go on repeating the reasons as to why I say that as they have already been dealth with by a dozen people on this forum in a number of threads.

I am not saying the Arjun is the ideal tank for India or Indian terrain. Perhaps it is that not at all. That does not make it a bad tank, however. Just poorly suited for the task at hand. The point is that there is a difference between a) the qualities of the tank, b) the wisdom of its development and c) its procurement for the Indian army.

[P.A.F]

well the only way for it to be proved a good tank is in battle ;)

[Pathfinder-X]

i dont forsee any tank battles in the "mountain terrain in kashmir " nor in the steep cliffs of tibet . tanks cannot be effectively used in both of these areas both by india and pakistan or china . ofcourse they will be used in plains. apart from jammu and kashmir punjab,rajasthan and gujarat border pakistan.
i am not very clear about the feasibility of tanks in the indo-china border.and i dont mean to insult your four months training in the army. really i respect army personnel , irrespective of their nationality , but if you can think so much about the feasibility of this tank , then the indian strategists with years of experience in military are clearly no fools either. if the indian army top brass had even a slight doubt about this tank , believe me they wouldnt have accepted it .dont you think they would've tested this tank on the most likely battle-fronts areas to see how it fares ?

and i dont understand this mentality of not trusting the "indian media " . the indian media is world class in every sense . you can ask you pak media friends if you have any !

Every nation's media contains a certain degree of propaganda. Take the Americans for example, can you say their news analyst has absolutely no biased opinion in it? A nation's media often exaggerate their military's capability. But if judge by experts or media from different, the level of bias generally tend to decrease.

There were several articles showing sharp contrast to what the articles your link has provided. It will, without a doubt, raise question in public's mind about who to believe. You cannot blame on people mentality.

After 30-Year Wait, India Rejects Arjun for Combat
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI


After waiting 30 years for its indigenously designed Arjun main battle tank, the Indian Army has decided the tank is too heavy for combat.

“It has been decided to use the Arjun main battle tank only for training purposes and not for combat purposes,” said a senior Indian Army official. He added that the Arjun’s weight makes the tank difficult to transport and inhibits maneuverability.

Quote:
The Arjun order also has been trimmed from 124 to 80 since it will be used only for training, said the Army official. The first batch of five Arjuns were delivered Aug. 7 to the Army by the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Chennai.


Another Army official said the 58.5-ton Arjun tank is much heavier and wider than the 46.5-ton Russian T-90 tank, which limits its operational mobility.

Problems plagued the Arjun from its inception in 1974 by India’s state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation. The first prototype was conceived in 1984, but the Army found a variety of problems involving its weight, engine overheating and armor protection. Arjun was planned to be ready in 1990 and mass produced by 1997.

Following delays, the Indian government struck a memorandum of understanding with Russia in 2000 to procure 310 T-90 tanks. Under the deal, 180 tanks are to be produced under licensed production at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, and the remaining 130 will be provided to India either fully or partially built, and final assembly would be done in India.

An official of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board, which controls the Avadi factory, said production priorities at Avadi have been shifted, leaving only one assembly line to build Arjuns, while the other two will produce T-90 tanks and upgrade T-72 tanks.

A senior Indian Defence Ministry official would not confirm the Arjun order had been reduced, and claimed that the tank’s problems have been fixed.

The official acknowledged, however, there is a transportation problem because the Arjun is too large for the vehicles already used to transport the T-72 and T-90. Special transport vehicles have been ordered to move the Arjuns, he said.

The Arjuns will cost about $5 million apiece, sources said, which is higher than the T-90 tank because the cost of imported components in the tank have increased from 27 percent to 60 percent.

Early this year, an Israeli Lahat anti-tank missile was mounted on an Arjun tank. The Arjun has a 120mm gun, a 7.22mm machine gun for ground operations and a 12.7mm machine gun for the anti-aircraft role.

The 120mm gun has been procured from France’s GIAT Industries, the engine from MTU and the transmission system from Renk, both of Germany, and the fire control system from Oldelft Instruments of the Netherlands.

The above article is from Defencenews.com, if you have subscription, here is the link

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3131494&C=asiapac

btw, I serve in Canada, not Pakistan.

[tatra]

Every nation's media contains a certain degree of propaganda. Take the Americans for example, can you say their news analyst has absolutely no biased opinion in it? A nation's media often exaggerate their military's capability. But if judge by experts or media from different, the level of bias generally tend to decrease.


IMHO, there is always some bias in particular newsmedia. Else, how can media distinguish themselves from one another and direct competitors. Propaganda, however, has a different connotation and I cannot agree to the statement that every nation's media contain a certain degree of propaganda. That remark itself reflects a bias in the perception of the media in general and/or in a particular area/region of the world.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=propaganda
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bias

[Awang se]

This whole thread is kind of single sided, inflame by rivalry between two countries.

[gf0012-aust]

This whole thread is kind of single sided, inflame by rivalry between two countries.

Agree, If it doesn't evolve into something more useful it runs the risk of getting closed.

Can people stop the slagging off at another countries technology just because it's the course de rigeur??

It's not helping anyone and turns useful subjects and topics into a mess.

[WebMaster]

Lets stay on course with the topic. This isn't media related thread but about India's MBT Arjun.

[The Watcher]

so whats next with India's mbt needs? i see arjun II taking shape with less weight. :D

[mysterious]

Was proper 'metal diet' the way for the next version to prove itself? ;) Just playing!

[tatra]

There are two questions that are of interest if Arjun is not suitable for large scale use in the Indian Army:
1) What will it use then? More T90S or is the Tank Ex (T72M1 with complete Arjun) a more viable and attractive option for the Indian Army?
2) If adoption of Arjun is limited by logistical problems due to its size and weight, then what are the prospects of Bhim (South African 155mm T6 on Arjun chassis)? Surely this SPG (which btw is a kick ass piece of equipment) is even heavier and bulkier than Arjun!

[gf0012-aust]

and for those who don't know about Bhim:

Bhim T-6
Both the 105mm Abbot and 130mm Catapult M-46 self-propelled howitzers are are being phased out from active service due to age and mechanical problems. A self-propelled artillery competition -- pitting the Celsius (Bofors) FH-77AD against the Bhim SP System [with the Denel LIW T-6] -- is underway to replace these systems as part of its Field Artillery Rationalization Plan.

The main advantages that the Celsius FH-77AD offers over the Denel T-6 is that it is based on a proven and easy to maintain 6X6 Volvo truck chassis. Compared with full-tracked self-propelled artillery system, the 6x6 FH-77 BD would have a number of advantages, including greater strategic mobility and lower procurement and life-cycle costs.

The new Denel T-6 vehicle is called the Bhim after a hero from Indian folklore (Bhima). The turret has ammunition-loading hatches on the right and left, and a conveyor belt may be extended from either of these hatches for ammunition loading or direct feeding of the gun from a ground pile. There are two hatches on the roof of the turret. The vehicle is equipped with GPS and a fire control computer for direct laying of the gun, or firing at a target where the location is known.

The Bhim system has achieved a sustained rate of fire of 116 rounds at a desert firing range in Pokhran in western India. The cost of procuring 520 such howitzers eventually is estimated at $972 million. The Arjun tank chassis to be used by the Bhim with the Denel T-6 turret, in contrast, has yet to enter full service. The MoD has approved building 120 Arjuns, but with arrival of the Russian T-90 main battle tank, the Arjun chassis could be diverted to Bhim. The Bhim is favored to win the Indian SP Howitzer competition, primarily due to the potential for domestic production. However, the first examples will likely not see military service until at least 2004.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/bhim.htm

[tatra]

The T72 chasis didn't quite cut it as base for the T6 turret

[dabrownguy]

I think this is the right move. If indeed the IA did not find the Arjun satisfactory to their personal needs than I would suggest that they purchase Bhim and Tank Ex. The advantage of Tank Ex over the T-90 is the fire power and probabily the most agile chasis. This would also keep the industry active. If IA does not do this then certianly we know that politics or arms mafia is behind this.

[neel24neo]

arjun isnt dead yet.sure it had some trouble with its systems and also the much media hyped logistics problem,but these are(most of them)engineering problems...which does have solutions.as for the rail wagons needed to transport arjun,i dont see why it cannot be solved by improvisation(during short term)and custom made wagons(long term).it isnt wise,as i see,to give a premature verdict on the tank,because its just the beginning...teething problems are bound to happen.as they say,"rome wasnt built in a day" or was it?whatever pitfalls this project had to face gets categorized as "experience"and that is part of learning curve,which would be more than handy in future projects.
AFAIK arjun(and its future variants) along with t-90 would form the core of indian army armoured regiments in the years to come.tank-ex was just an experiment.i donot see it entering service with indian army.

[insas556]

The Arjun MBT project has had problems due to the bureaucracy, over ambition, vested interests. Service mindsets, political problems etc.

However of late there has been new sense of urgency, drive and a change of attitude. There is a realisation that everything cannot be done by us, and the need for openness, adaptability and the guys at CVRDE and the powers that be realised that after sinking so much money there is no option but to go on. The Arjun has improved and productionized.

A seemingly trivial, yet surprising act was the defence ministry allowing, astonishingly. an Auto magazine, to test-drive the tank. Such openness has been rarely seen before. The article as expected is that of a popular magazine, full of flourish, style and and hyperbole. Yet the glossy , detailed photos of the FCS, crew compartment, driver station, do show the tank internally has good build quality. space and an modern look.
Granted its only photos, but the openness of the CVRDE and the defence ministry do point to a sense of confidence and purpose.
The article in print need to be seen for deatils in the photo, but courtesy of
jatt2ooo of the forum,http://www.protonriver.com/forums/, the article has been uploaded at:

http://s90370077.onlinehome.us/documents/Arjun1.pdf

[tatra]

Mmm...

Excellent idea!. I'ld like to see Top Gear put the Challenger II, Leo II, Ariete and LeClerc through their paces ....

[neel24neo]

tatra,u forgot the abrams???
anyway it was nice reading the article.it is ofcourse a PR exercise but atleast it explains that our scientists cannot be expected to comeup with a m1a2 abrams overnight.as rightly pointed out,arjun is just a stepping stone.
moreover our threat perception as of now doesnot include any country operating m1a2abrams,chally2,leo2 or even leclerc.so it doesnt matter much if arjun mk1 doesnt match upto abrams.

[mysterious]

In 'reality', it doesn't operationally even match up to a T-72 and/or T-90; where the hell did a comparison with Abrams come from? :roll

[neel24neo]

dear mysterious
i didnt compare it with the abrams infact i didnt intend on comparing it with any tank.i guess u didnt understand the import of what i had written.it is just this that arjun is a stepping stone for india.

[mysterious]

Yes I know its a good step ahead and got the jist of what you were trying to say but I was being careful about someone trying to compare it with some of the best tanks in the world today. :smokingc:

[tatra]

tatra,u forgot the abrams???
anyway it was nice reading the article.it is ofcourse a PR exercise but atleast it explains that our scientists cannot be expected to comeup with a m1a2 abrams overnight.as rightly pointed out,arjun is just a stepping stone.
moreover our threat perception as of now doesnot include any country operating m1a2abrams,chally2,leo2 or even leclerc.so it doesnt matter much if arjun mk1 doesnt match upto abrams.

Well , Top Gear is a BBC program so I figure Euro-tanks only :P

[muslim282]

NEO: with what l,ve read about the ARJUN, it seems nothing more than a white elephant. l think pride and pride alone will lead to the indian armed forces purchasing it, so as not to dishearten the indian public and avoid a press frenzy.
Don,t worry my indian friends....the yanks also had a big scandal with the useless and money guzzling SGT YORKE.
l suppose your right in respect that it will definately be a stepping stone for india.
Looks like the pakistanis are definatley ahead in this race. The Al-khalid battle tank has completed its trials and is now going to be inducted on a large scale. Foreign armies are also conducting trials and therefore the khalid is competing against the likes of M1-Abrahams and challenger. In the desert conditions it has performed exceptionally well, outdoing its western counterparts.

Admin: Last comment deleted - totally unnecessary when people are being civil - change your attitude.

[dabrownguy]

Lets do the Q and A thing again.
Arjun wasted too much money and we didn't get a good tank.
Not true. Europe wasted how much? and got the Typhoon which is still heck of a jet even with critizers.
Nation like India can't build a tank without experience.
It took 30 years to start the project. This is enough time to come up with advanced armor/gun but apperantly not enough for an engine. Bottom line is India can build a tank with or without forign help. Arjun stands tall against western tanks on paper. BTW most tanks are unproven still so keep your eyes open. ;)

[P.A.F]

the bottom line is that the arjun is crap and a waste of money. nothing more to say.

[tatra]

the bottom line is that the arjun is crap and a waste of money. nothing more to say.
It may be a waste of money but not because "it is crap". That's just a totally uninformed statement.

[Red aRRow]

Locking the thread.