Ah-64 Apache, can small arms knock down it?

[giangnguyen]

Hi all,
Does any one here know any infor about this? There is hardly a perfect flying machine that can always survive small arm (calibres below 20mm) fire, I beliave so.
Giang Nguyen

[Gremlin29]

Small arms can bring down any aircraft. The Apache and Blackhawk were both designed to sustain fairly substantial damage, but they are not immune to small arms fire. If we look at the Apache that was brought down (at least the one that I saw) it did not appear to be damaged and may have simply been forced to land due to mechanical malfunctions. It made a safe and uneventful landing whereby both aviators were able to walk away. Perhaps a lucky (or super skilled) shot to a hydraulic line?

[Red aRRow]

I believe the Apache and the A-10 warthog are designed to sustain lots of small arms fire due to their roles in war.

[Gremlin29]

You are quite correct shamayel. Both the A-10 and AH-64 were designed to withstand maximum damage. Both aircraft feature titanium armored cockpits as well as armor in critical systems areas. The AH-64's rotorblades are designed to survive the impact of up to 37mm projectiles. Neither aircraft obviously are invinsilbe and something as simple a small bird could cause a catostrophic failure under the right conditions.

[boylde]

Helicopter losses in Vietnam came mostly from hostile small arms fir like 7.62mm AK47/AKMS,RPG,machine guns,23mm ZU 23 and ZSU 23-4P,SAM site or portables. Avoidin hits is not easy but with alltitude and speed and nowdays choppers are narrower and have doubled armour thickness but no doubt soon there will be a wepon able to bet even the most advanced choppers it still relays on one major component the piolt and the crew.

[kashifshahzad]

:coffee I think they can be shot down with the morter or by continuous firing form a gun.:rolleyes:

[Red aRRow]

:coffee I think they can be shot down with the morter or by continuous firing form a gun.:rolleyes:

Uhhhh I think mortar would be difficult since it is more of an indirect infantry support weapon and would have to have the chopper flying right over it to hit it.

Biggest threat has to be from RPGs and shoulder fired SAMs. Fire from small arms might bring it down if it hits some important part such as the rotor blades or the engine.
Hey isn't that an idea!! instead of targeting the heavily armoured body of the helicopter why not fire with small arms at the rotor blades of the chopper. What do you guys think??

[Temoor_A]

Uhhhh I think mortar would be difficult since it is more of an indirect infantry support weapon and would have to have the chopper flying right over it to hit it.

Biggest threat has to be from RPGs and shoulder fired SAMs. Fire from small arms might bring it down if it hits some important part such as the rotor blades or the engine.
Hey isn't that an idea!! instead of targeting the heavily armoured body of the helicopter why not fire with small arms at the rotor blades of the chopper. What do you guys think??
The problem is that it would be a very lucky situation to fire directly in to sensitive parts of the chopper through small arms and not getting toasted by the aircraft itself.

RPG on the other hand is more effective weapon.

And I agree that mortar rounds are not an effective option.

[Attila]

I really don't think it is possible. As far as the deveopment of small arms fire goes vs. the development of strike aircraft and attack helicoptors, the odds of a man shooting down a plane/helicopter with even an AK is slim.

To put it into context, remember the scene in Flight of the Intruder where the copilot gets shot my a gentleman wielding a long barrel rifle?? The round penetrated the cockpit glass and fatally wounded him.

That being said, with todays titanium canopy's and other special metallurgies used to cover key components of any airframe, I consider it highly unlikely that small arms fire would take an AH-64 out.

Besides...A-10's come back to base 1/2 destroyed by anti-aircraft fire and tank shells...think a rifle is going to do something to it?? lol

Attila

[Pendekar]

The NVA have used the "small arms for air defence" concept extensively during the Vietnam war, and they manage to bring down significant number of Hueys with it. the larger the crowd, the better chance it have to bring down any aircraft. from what the NVA claim, they also manage to shot down 2 F-4 phantom with this tactics.

[Pathfinder-X]

It's possible.

During the Soviet campaign in Afganistan 1980's, the Afgan fighters would camouflage themselves and bait the Mi-24 Hinds into mountain valleys. After the Hind is inside the valley, dozens of fighters would use small arms and RPGs to attack the areas around the cockpit which is the least armoured part of the Mi-24 at the time.(Soivets later placed bulletproof glass around 4 inches thick in Hinds.) Many of them were lost this way.

Or if you believe the Iraqis, they claimed a old farmer have shot down an American Apache with WWII style rifle. I don't buy any of that Iraqi propaganda crap, I think the downed Apache suffered engine failures in the sandy enviroment. But besides that, small arms does post some degree of threat to helicopters.

[Aussie Digger]

No helicopter and certainly not an Apache is invincible to enemy fire. Small arms and definitely RPG type weapons are capable of damaging helo's to the point where they are not able to continue to operate. It would be unlikely (I won't say impossible) for small arms alone to shoot down an Apache (the fuselage is designed to withstand 12.7mm HMG fire and the rotors are designed to withstand 23mm cannon fire IIRC) but stranger things have happened...

[Pendekar]

Lucky shots goes a long way. a simple rule of probabilities catch up at last.

[berry580]

I really don't think it is possible. As far as the deveopment of small arms fire goes vs. the development of strike aircraft and attack helicoptors, the odds of a man shooting down a plane/helicopter with even an AK is slim.

To put it into context, remember the scene in Flight of the Intruder where the copilot gets shot my a gentleman wielding a long barrel rifle?? The round penetrated the cockpit glass and fatally wounded him.

That being said, with todays titanium canopy's and other special metallurgies used to cover key components of any airframe, I consider it highly unlikely that small arms fire would take an AH-64 out.

Besides...A-10's come back to base 1/2 destroyed by anti-aircraft fire and tank shells...think a rifle is going to do something to it?? lol

AttilaWell not exactly 1/2 destroyed, I think if around 1/3 of it's wing's area is gone, then it can't fly much more.
But I did hear that it still can fly even with one engine blown off!!

[ThunderBolt]

Apache's is a very old production, but new upgrades, wouldn't allow a simple AK to crash it. I think only 2 things that can bring it down would be , a lucky shot to one of its major components, or a sniper performs its specialities on it. I don't know if it has bullet proof cocpit. DOES IT? :confused:

[SABRE]

During the Iraq War an Iraqi farmer shot down an APACHE with an old WW2 Rifle....U can bring down any helicopter (may be an AC too) even by throughing stones on it, but u'll have to hit the right place to do that.

I dnt remember which was was it but a civilian man on the ground shot a fire on USNavy's F-6 & manage to kill one of the pilots. The builet hit his neck.

[tatra]

The NVA have used the "small arms for air defence" concept extensively during the Vietnam war, and they manage to bring down significant number of Hueys with it. the larger the crowd, the better chance it have to bring down any aircraft. from what the NVA claim, they also manage to shot down 2 F-4 phantom with this tactics.

The Big difference is that the F4 Phantom was not designed from the ground up to be able to withstand small arms and light cannon fire and the A10 and A64 were. The ats why A10 has rugged twin engine design and redundant controls and a titanum armor 'tub' for the cockpit. Apache was designed to withstand 23mm AP ammo.

[Gremlin29]

Could a single rifle bullet bring down an Apache? It's not impossible, just highly highly improbable. The Apache is not impervious to small arms fire, but it takes a significant amount of small arms fire to bring one down. I don't think you fella's fully understand the complexities of military aviation. In some cases a sensor could be hit which would illuminate a segment panel light. Here's a scenario that's not at all unrealistic:

Small arms fire damages the transmission chip detector sensor and or wiring. This in turn illuminates the Master Caution light, which alerts the pilot to review his segment panel lights. He will see a little block lit up that says "TransChip". What that means to the pilot is the sensor has detected metal particles in the transmission oil chip detector, that means there something coming apart in the transmission which is of course a component that is critical for flight. Now we go into training and the operators manual. A transmission chip light dictates the pilot land as soon as possible. That means proceed to the nearest suitable landing area without delay, the primary consideration is occupant survival. When the transmission seizes, your flight ends. Under combat conditions, the pilot has to take a gamble over flying an aircraft that could stop flying at any moment and or getting captured if he lands. Pilots know that if the tranny seizes the game is over. So they have a better chance landing safely, and E&Eing the enemy. Naturally in combat they are going to look at the trans oil temp to see if maybe just maybe it's a faulty sensor, and monitor the temp for changes which would indicate there is actually a problem. If for some reason the temp sensor was likewise damaged he pretty much has no choice but to land, what could very well be an otherwise undamaged and totally servicable aircraft. To me, that's not shooting anything down, it's just quirky fate.

The old saying is, Big sky, Little bullet.

[Pendekar]

yep, that's more like it. it means the pilot was forced to land instead of being shot down. by the wa, the apache that the farmer shot down, i see it's right pilotside canopy glass was shattered, i think the farmer might hit the cockpit control panel as well and the display went blank. obviously the farmer aim his gun to the cockpit.

[Gremlin29]

That could be Pendekar, but the Apache has dual controls and can be flown from both front and rear seat and in fact both crew members are rated aviators. Without knowing what damage was done to the ship it's impossible to tell for sure how it was shot down. I wouldn't take that report that some farmer with an old bolt action rifle brought it down with one lucky shot too seriously. The pilots survived and gave a debrief on what happened but I honestly don't remember what it was other than it not being all that remarkable. For a single lucky shot I would almost be suspect of the fire detection system. When the big red FIRE light illuminates, it grabs your attention fast. When the FIRE light illuminates and you see something that "looks" just a little bit like smoke from an onboard fire, it REALLY gets your attention. There are certain "things" that happen to aircraft that makes landing in an enemy occupied area a viable alternative to the bad things that could happen when your up in the air. There's an old pilot saying that goes like this: It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than it is to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. ;)

[Pendekar]

one more thing, i thought it was shot by an AK, not some bolt action rifle. i remember i saw it in TV that the farmers hold the AK in his hand. i find it hard to believe if it's some bolt action rifle. he might score against an old Dragonfly but we talking about Apache here.

[hot222]

No way! Apache was designed from the start, with emphasis to survivalability. Examples:
1. Afghanistan: AH:64As got a lot of shots during a mission, one of them with RPG. One lost one engine. An other flew back to base (30' flight) without oil in the main transmition.
2. Iraq: 36 (I think) AH-64Ds/Longbows was getting ground fire for about 2 hours. 35 of them had been hit. All of them return safely back.

So no question about if someone with a rifle can put down an Apache.

[hot222]

yep, that's more like it. it means the pilot was forced to land instead of being shot down. by the wa, the apache that the farmer shot down, i see it's right pilotside canopy glass was shattered, i think the farmer might hit the cockpit control panel as well and the display went blank. obviously the farmer aim his gun to the cockpit.

No that is not possible. He was on the ground. He had to shoot upwards. Put the Apache to an altitude of, let say at least, 100 feet. If you create a triangle, you'll see that he must be too long away to can hit the cockpit. To shoot straight in the cockpit, you must be at the same altitude, and shoot the million dollar shot! Clear Iraqi propaganda.

[Gremlin29]

Actually Hot222 it's not at all impossible to hit the cockpit side window with small arms fire. For starters, it would be unusual for the Apache to that high, 50 feet AGL or lower is normal. Secondly, the aircraft could have been executing a turn whereby the aircraft would be banked over making the side window even more easily hit. Like I said earlier, it would be a one in a million shot for a single bullet to cause a failure or percieved failure in which the pilot would land. These aren't cars and trucks we are talking about, pilots have to consider getting on the ground safely sometimes, even if what's on the ground isn't all that friendly. Now to give you guys some perspective, take a look at the link I'm providing. This is an OH-58 D that sustained a ton of small arms fire and returned to base. Usually it takes more than one or two critical hits to bring a bird down, even a lightweight ship like the little OH-58. An AH-64 can take a heck of alot more abuse than the OH-58 in the photo's.

http://www.simflite.com/SF_Photos/Aviation_Photos.htm

[hot222]

"Here's one of our OH-58D Combat Scouts from Iraq.
Needless to say, they got into a little hostile territory. This thing took hundreds of rounds and yet returned its crew back to base, including direct hits into the engine, transmission, control systems, avionics, flight computers, and both main and tail rotor. The 2-man crew sustained multiple injuries, but survived."

Hundreds of rounds on a 58 and manage to return.
1 shot knock down an Apache? Come on!

[Sparapet]

What about fire from a large caliber sniper rifle? I'm thinking of something like Russian KSbK or OSB-96 (using 12.7 x 108mm ammo) or a US Barrett M99 or Armalite AR-50 (using 12.7x99mm ammo). The new Mi-28N has an armored cockpit which can take direct hits from 12.7mm ammo. What about the Ah-64?

[Alektas]

An Apache was shot down by the Iraqis. It was on the news. The video showed a downed Apache, with little visible damage (indicating that small arms fire was the cause of its failure), and a few iraqi villagers with AK-47 celebrating. If I recall correctly, the helicopter was downed near a river, and the video showed the villagers shooting at the river banks, where presumably the crew of Apache was hiding.
I suspect this kind of videos are not shown to the american public.

[Sparapet]

On the contrary, something like that would make a good news item here in the states. Little visible damage would be used as an excuse for a possible technical failure and the scene of Iraqis firing AKs would be usefull in mustering public support for the war.

P.S. Little visible damage does not automatically mean that it was downed by small arms fire -- it could have been a technical issue also.

[Gremlin29]

Actually we all saw the footage, and there's no way to conclude the Apache was even shot down much less shot down by a single bullet from an old bolt action rifle fired by a farmer. We did see Iraqi state run media report that this was the case, but we all remember Baghdad Bob (the official spokesman for Saddam) claim on television that the Americans were being killed by the 10's of thousands and that they were nowhere near Baghdad when in fact, the Americans were only a few blocks away :D Saddly it seems that even the most obviously rediculous lies are believed by those desperate enough to believe any news that would make the American military seem less mighty than it is.

[hot222]

I've heard that few hours later, a US fighter, bombed Apache. That propably happened because, at this point of war, it couldn't be recovered. That way Apache wasn't available to Iraqis to aquire infos from it or use it for extra propaganda.

That, also, made it unavailable to US Army, to find out what real happened.

Here is a link to that story:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0507/p04s01-woiq.html

My point of view: A mulfaction that had made them to land immediatelly, or fuel problem. Maybe the second is look like a stupid...mistake, but at the "fog of war" have been happened before.

mod edit: highsea: hot222, please just edit your post when you want to add something. No need to double post just to add a link.

[Lightndattic]

The Golden BB theory has been proven true countless times.

[helointel]

If you are a professional intel analyst, military personnel and/or have access to secret information, and your stories and info. can be considered secret you are making a serious violation. This site is not the site for you. No one that this information directly affects is impressed by your knowledge. The only benefit that comes from your foaming at the mouth is a perfect open source resource for the enemies of the United States to ask you questions such as "Ah-64 Apache, can small arms knock down it?" and have you naively answer as if you are contributing in some way - when it is in fact highly likely that you are being dooped into providing information that is vital for the enemy. Unless you are an insurgent seeking to improve your tactics, you might consider a little dose of discretion in light of the recent events in Iraq. There is no argument in opposition to my position listed above that validates your writing in these blogs...so don't waste your time. If the enemy has access to the info. - YOU ARE HELPING THEM!!!

[Waylander]

What exactly here violated OPSEC? :confused:

[steve33]

If you are a professional intel analyst, military personnel and/or have access to secret information, and your stories and info. can be considered secret you are making a serious violation. This site is not the site for you. No one that this information directly affects is impressed by your knowledge. The only benefit that comes from your foaming at the mouth is a perfect open source resource for the enemies of the United States to ask you questions such as "Ah-64 Apache, can small arms knock down it?" and have you naively answer as if you are contributing in some way - when it is in fact highly likely that you are being dooped into providing information that is vital for the enemy. Unless you are an insurgent seeking to improve your tactics, you might consider a little dose of discretion in light of the recent events in Iraq. There is no argument in opposition to my position listed above that validates your writing in these blogs...so don't waste your time. If the enemy has access to the info. - YOU ARE HELPING THEM!!!

I think the enemy would have worked out by themselves if small arms fire can bring down the Apache,they are the ones shooting at them.

[Tasman]

There is no argument in opposition to my position listed above that validates your writing in these blogs...so don't waste your time.

So what do you expect members to say in response to your post?

Cheers

[hudi82]

I think the enemy would have worked out by themselves if small arms fire can bring down the Apache,they are the ones shooting at them.

I think they already did work out an efficient way to bring down the helicopters. Any one with a head could. Its obvious that AH-64 has inadequate armor protection for the role its playing right now. There are many videos showing helicopters being shot down on youtube.

The most vulnerable parts of AH-64 are IMO the cockpit glass, rear rotor transmission and the entire rear. The engine compartment is also poorly armored but the engine themselves probably can take a bullet or two. The main transmission is pretty well protected by the two engines and the main hub is very strong.

The best tactics seems to be having few HMG points set up a few hundred meters from each other and wait for the helicopters to pass, one fires at the rear of the middle helicopter then hide. when the choppers are making a circle to attack the first the rest could engage them from the side which are week and have a very good chance of surviving as the pilots probably wouldn't be looking for them unless there are quite a few of them - above 4. Still they are hard to spot in urban areas. Similarly one can use portable SAMs as the first and second shot. But I think that the pilots are not that stupid to circle around waiting for more.

[qwerty223]

No helicopter and certainly not an Apache is invincible to enemy fire. Small arms and definitely RPG type weapons are capable of damaging helo's to the point where they are not able to continue to operate. It would be unlikely (I won't say impossible) for small arms alone to shoot down an Apache (the fuselage is designed to withstand 12.7mm HMG fire and the rotors are designed to withstand 23mm cannon fire IIRC) but stranger things have happened...
Agreed
How deadly is RPG towards Apache still a myth. But if you ever seen how a RPG penetrate armor vehicles even tanks, you will have no doubt for them to blow a way Apache's armor. Only that RPGs are not guided. So if there is a choice, I would say MANPADS is more effective.

[hudi82]

Agreed
How deadly is RPG towards Apache still a myth. But if you ever seen how a RPG penetrate armor vehicles even tanks, you will have no doubt for them to blow a way Apache's armor. Only that RPGs are not guided. So if there is a choice, I would say MANPADS is more effective.

RPGs from USSR are designed to self-explode after 800m (I read somewhere) and that would be a pretty good shrapnel charge there and luckily for the Russians the rebel didn't learn this in Chechnya. I don't think its very hard to hit a hovering helicopter or even one thats moving slowly - I've seen videos of very accurate hits on moving tanks etc. so I guess a well trained soldier could hit a helicopter with an RPG though probably need some luck and a big helicopter.

About the resistance of Apache, I have to say that the myth of withstanding 12.7mm of Apache is false. Please note that a 12.7mm round is perfectly capable of penetrating 5mm thick steel plate from >300m and Apache definitely dont have that kind of armor everywhere. otherwise it would weight much more. and its proven that side glass are hardly capable of handling 7.62mm - thats why there are armors in the seats. I think several well aimed 23mm rounds would shred it just like every other helicopter.

[Chrom]

Someone here believe what sensor-busted 30-40mm AAA shells are effective against helos/aircrafts. Well, IF you accept that, then surery even 5.56 ammo will have a good chance bringing any helo down...
For my part i'm sure the chances of anything less than 0.50 calibre to damage combat helo's are not worth mentioning, same as said AAA shells if they dont score direct hit.

[Waylander]

The problem is that for example the Apache's cockpit is not safe against russian or NATO 7,62mm.

And there is always the golden bullet.
You are right when stating that a normal guy with a 5,56mm or 7,62mm rifle is normally not going to down an attacking helicopter but if you have a company of guys putting metal in the air the chance for one golden bullet rises.

And when you have a bad intelligence and mission planning together with an uncomfortable environment (Flying over a city) like during the mentioned Iraq incident or in A-stan (mountains with many tunnels, bunkers,...) you have a good chance to be right in the middle of a bunch of flying bullets from every calibre.

[dioditto]

I think if you are a crackshot, and place a few well placed shot on the rotor joints itself, even automatic weapon can bring it down. A few good shots into the engine air intake also would damage the internal engine enough to bring the chopper down. Last not the least, if all else fails, there is can always the laser trick, using high power laser to blind the pilot hoping he would crash the chopper...

[Waylander]

If you are able to target something as small as the pilots head why not just use a 7.62mm+ MG? ;)

[Tasman]

I think if you are a crackshot, and place a few well placed shot on the rotor joints itself, even automatic weapon can bring it down. A few good shots into the engine air intake also would damage the internal engine enough to bring the chopper down. Last not the least, if all else fails, there is can always the laser trick, using high power laser to blind the pilot hoping he would crash the chopper...

What about blinding the pilot with a mirror? :onfloorl:

Wow. From what people are saying its so easy to bring down an Apache I'm amazed that there are any helicopters still flying in Afghanistan, Iraq or any other war zone. How come military forces all over the world are still buying huge quantities of helicopters when they are apparently such easy targets? :rolleyes:

It reminds me of an old movie I saw where the hero swam out to a Japanese destroyer, which was travelling at full speed, and threw a hand grenade which went down the funnel and blew it up! :onfloorl:

As Waylander said there is always the chance of a golden bullet but I think I would be spending my money on MANPADS rather than snipers as a counter to armed helos. Of course a helo, including an Apache, can be brought down by small arms fire. It has been demonstrated that this is the case. The question to be answered is how likely is this to happen when helos are used in a tactically sensible manner?

Cheers

[hudi82]

I think if you are a crackshot, and place a few well placed shot on the rotor joints itself, even automatic weapon can bring it down. A few good shots into the engine air intake also would damage the internal engine enough to bring the chopper down. Last not the least, if all else fails, there is can always the laser trick, using high power laser to blind the pilot hoping he would crash the chopper...

naa, the rotor hub is too strong, no change of damaging that with small arms. and the engine it self can take good blows. but the electrical systems and electronics are not that good with taking a bullet.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

If you are a professional intel analyst, military personnel and/or have access to secret information, and your stories and info. can be considered secret you are making a serious violation. This site is not the site for you. No one that this information directly affects is impressed by your knowledge. The only benefit that comes from your foaming at the mouth is a perfect open source resource for the enemies of the United States to ask you questions such as "Ah-64 Apache, can small arms knock down it?" and have you naively answer as if you are contributing in some way - when it is in fact highly likely that you are being dooped into providing information that is vital for the enemy. Unless you are an insurgent seeking to improve your tactics, you might consider a little dose of discretion in light of the recent events in Iraq. There is no argument in opposition to my position listed above that validates your writing in these blogs...so don't waste your time. If the enemy has access to the info. - YOU ARE HELPING THEM!!!

Maybe we should stop political debate too, any opostition to any of the desisions made by our leades is "emboldening" the terrorists. You know what, everytime someone votes against the current government, they're critisising their actions and "emboldening" the terorists, so iguess we should stop all this voting stuff too. Geesh you think insergents would have better intel sources than DT, like their own experiance in combating these systems. I've never read a post from the professional group that has even smelt like a security leak, (sometimes i wish i had got some inside info!!!). They all serve their countries and know thier responsibilites and i've never seen anything but intergrity in ther actions, so i dont know what your posting about.

[Distiller]

Some details on anti-air tactics employed in Iraq.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=43506

[steve33]

I think all and all the Apache has gone pretty well if you look at the amount of hours they would have flown and compare that to how many have been shot down.

No weapon system is ever going to be perfect there will always be lossesto some degree.

[steve33]

I think all and all the Apache has gone pretty well if you look at the amount of hours they would have flown and compare that to how many have been shot down.

No weapon system is ever going to be perfect there will always be losses to some degree.