who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

[Waylander]

IMHO it would be hard to get the kinetic performance similar to a modern 120mm out of a portable device.

I am very sceptical about the idea of using kinetic rounds for man portable systems.
Right now modern man portable ATGMs have a much better performance and systems like Kornet-E, Spike-ER and (to an IMHO lesser extent) Javelin give infantry and light vehicles a very good chance of taking out modern MBTs from nearly all directions (be it via top attack or just by using pure penetration power).

As I said before the proliferation of reliable hard and soft kill systems is going to put some pressure onto ATGM developers which might result in faster systems and systems with capable ECM and decoy systems (and higher price).

And to answer your second question.
The driver could be affected if the turret is penetrated. Naturally he is further away from the penetration and therefore is not directly in harms way but the turret basket is not seperated from the hull by any kind of armor. So any splinter or fire coming his way could also affect him.

BTW, some tanks feature an emergency escape hatch under the hull normally located at the drivers position so he has a good chance of getting out of the tank without having to expose himself to small arms fire and other ugly things flying around on a modern battlefield.

[eckherl]

Hmm... promising what is their contry of origin? I have just had another brilliant brainwave when it comes to anti tank projectiles, is it possible to make a hollowpoint KE missile that deforms in soft lead with tungsten carbide jagged edges? so it literally cuts through the armour? once it goes through the crew don't have a chance. I ask not just if it would be effective but if its allowed under UN law?

These are U.S designed projectiles.

In a nut shell - you need lots of energy and mass for a projectile to penetrate the thick armor of a MBT, a hollow point doesn`t give you the mass needed, nor the metallurgy properties to prevent it from breaking up apon impact.

[eckherl]

this is going to take a while, a hollowpoint is a roand that deforms on impact and expands at least twice its size if not more.

On impact it does this (http://www.remington.com/images/products/ammo/centerfire/corelokt_mushroom.jpg) (on the exposed lead I want to put the tungsten carbide)

My theory is that more surface area that the force hits with the cutting area the better and bigger the penetration is

You do realize that this type of projectile is used for soft tissue penetration.

[eckherl]

If a whole is punched into the tank than alot of metal fragments come through this whole.
These fragments consist of the remnants of the penetrator itself as well as parts of the armor.
You can imagine what alot of high speed metal fragments do to the crew and interior of a tank...
Additionally these fragments tend to be extremely hot because alot of the impact energy is converted into heat. Thus an ammo explosion or another kind of fire is also a tipical result of a hit by a KE.
Usually we call what happens during impact Trefferblitz---> impact flash because if one hits a target with a KE it results in a flash (the impact energy converted into heat and light).
This phenomen helps tank crews to indentifiy impacts on enemy tanks even if the air is full of smoke and debris.

Also let me point out or add that a tank round doesn`t neccasarily have to penetrate the armor on a tank to cause a spalling effect, even a paint chip can be deadly to a crew member.

A DU round penetration if one of the most lethal potential tank kills that you can get due to the fusion of the round penetrating the armor, nice very hot shards of armor flying about.

[Waylander]

Jup, just the splinters from armor and even from paint can be deadly.

But the introduction of modern spall liners reduced these problems a bit though.

Overpenetration can also be an issue.
For example the penetration of the squad cabin of a BMP might very well result in two holes and injured/dead soldiers in the way of the KE but besides this the vehicle might still be fully operational.

[eckherl]

Jup, just the splinters from armor and even from paint can be deadly.

But the introduction of modern spall liners reduced these problems a bit though.

Overpenetration can also be an issue.
For example the penetration of the squad cabin of a BMP might very well result in two holes and injured/dead soldiers in the way of the KE but besides this the vehicle might still be fully operational.

That is why I always have continued to fire until the tank was either in flames or blown apart or the tank crew was bailing out. I think that some folks are under the impression that war is a one shot one kill type of scenario, but there are occasions that it takes more than one shot.

[lobbie111]

What is an MBT's mix of Projectiles if you are having say a tank (with supporting infantry) vs the same thing? Is it different for different countries not just different tanks. Most tanks now have separate ammunition compartments how does this affect the destruction of the tank?

[Waylander]

Usually for a classic cold war scenario a Leopard II carries 30 KE (APFSDS-T) and 12 MZ (HEAT-T). Right now the new Rheinmetall HE is slowly replacing the old MZ.

The loadouts vary from country to country and from mission to mission. The Leos which entered Kosovo carried more MZs than usual due to a different threat environment.

Danish and Canadian Leos in A-stan for example carry a really different loadout as their only targets are light Infantry (maybe a techical sometimes) and structures.
Denmark has PELE, HEAT-T and canister rounds in it's inventory while I know only of HEAT-T in Canadian inventory.
Not long ago there circulated an interesting article about canadian armor operations in A-stan here and elsewhere in the net.
There they said that they really miss the 105mm HESH round for their older Leopard 1C2. But I don't understand why they don't just buy Swedish, Israeli or German 120mm HEs or some more specialised rounds like PELE or canister. :unknown

As for blowout panels. If they work (and at least the ones in the Abrams seems to work) they save the whole tank and the tank itself usually can continue to operate (usually falling back for repair) and can be in full service again shortly after the incident because there is not much more to do than replacing the panels and the ammo rack.
Because of this an Abrams is one of the safest tanks. A Leo II for example only has it's ready ammo protected by blowout panels while the reserve ammo in the hull is not protected at all and is going to rip the tank apart if it is hit.

[gf0012-aust]

Ta hollow point doesn`t give you the mass needed, nor the metallurgy properties to be prevent it from breaking up apon impact.

I suspect that lobbie is confusing shaped charges with hollow points......

[lobbie111]

I suspect that lobbie is confusing shaped charges with hollow points......

Fraid not gf, I have learnt my error. I am very interested in HESH rounds how do they fare against armoured targets and what are they used for normally?

[eckherl]

What is an MBT's mix of Projectiles if you are having say a tank (with supporting infantry) vs the same thing? Is it different for different countries not just different tanks. Most tanks now have separate ammunition compartments how does this affect the destruction of the tank?

Combat loads will vary from mission to mission, as the case for U.S tanks in Iraq, you will not find KE projectiles as part of the combat load, they are staged in conex`s in the event of a future need (armored threat). Plus let me add that in a combined mechanized egagement operation a tank crew must be aware of the positioning of all possible friendly dismounts before firing off any type of Sabot ammunition due to pedal seperation.

If you take out the tanks armored/protected ammunition compartment then it is the end of the game for that tank being a affective assett for your scheme of manuever, if the battle dictates, then you may be able to use that vehicle for enemy observations or provide small arms suppressive fire for the rest of your forces.

I do not understand why Germany hasn`t gone to a armored bulkheads for their hull ammunition with blow off panels on their Leo2 series, South Korea has this feature on the new K2.

[eckherl]

Fraid not gf, I have learnt my error. I am very interested in HESH rounds how do they fare against armoured targets and what are they used for normally?


HESH does a pretty good job in vehicle destruction due to the Spalling effect that is created by this round, even a vehicle equipped with a spall liner will be hard pressed in stopping the performance level of this type of projectile. You would also use it against secondary armor threats or if you have a good flank or rear shot on a MBT in the event that you are out of KE projectiles, it does a pretty good job on building structures also. A few years ago a Challenger 2 was hit by a HESH round, the destruction was terrible with the loss of life.

[Waylander]

I have no idea why they left the hull ammo unprotected. I could imagine that they didn't want to sacrifice armor capacity. I also think it is a disadvantage but it probably is also a result of cold war thinking (hull down positions, target rich environment,...).
I doubt they would do this again these days.

BTW, the HESH entered the open hatch during that sad friendly fire accident between the two Challis.
Talking about bad luck... :(

[eckherl]

Yep - I read a 20 page report on this incident, and the whole bloody incident is just way too strange on how it accured.

[lobbie111]

Ah yes heard of that incident, is that report approved for public release? Ah thats a shame, what countries currently use HESH on their front line MBT's. Is HESH an effective form for ATGM's?

Btw, I was aware of the different loadouts for different missions which is why I provided a scenario :)

[eckherl]

Ah yes heard of that incident, is that report approved for public release? Ah thats a shame, what countries currently use HESH on their front line MBT's. Is HESH an effective form for ATGM's?

Btw, I was aware of the different loadouts for different missions which is why I provided a scenario :)

The report that I have will need to be cleared do to OPSEC concerns, supposingly there is a scaled down/cleaned up version floating around and I will see if I can find it for you and PM you, out of respect for the tank crew I will not post it for public scrutiny on this forum site and ask you to do the same.

Hesh can be effective against ATGM teams if they are in built up area`s for example like building structures, this is what HESH or lets give it the field name used by our British friends, Squash was initially designed for.

Some of the countries that still use it are listed as follows:

UK
Italy
Iran
Argentina
U.S
India
Canada
Isreal

You are going to find that this type of projectile will be making a comeback, especially for wheeled 105mm special purpose vehicles, the U.S will be fielding this type of projectile on the Stryker MGS platform real soon for Iraq theater of operations, we currently have it in stock for the M728 engineer vehicle that is equipped with a 165mm demolition gun. Again, please keep in mind that when the British initially designed this projectile its primary purpose was for structured targets, as they went along they saw the benefits of using it against armored vehicles. Against modern armor at the 60 degree frontal arc HESH wil be pretty much useless because of the way that the armor is set up now on Russian and Western tanks. This type of round relies on a big shock wave to dislodge armor on the other side of the impact, modern armor will pretty much disapate this shockwave, it could be a different matter though for vehicle flank and rear shots.

[V4.SKUNK]

The report that I have will need to be cleared do to OPSEC concerns, supposingly there is a scaled down/cleaned up version floating around and I will see if I can find it for you and PM you, out of respect for the tank crew I will not post it for public scrutiny on this forum site and ask you to do the same.




I'm sorry but i don't believe a word you say, i think you mean to say you have seen publicly released PDF file that has been cleared up already. There is no way you have an original report, to say so proves to me that you are lying.

[Waylander]

Are you on your rampage again? :rolleyes:
I still remember that you have already stated your own superiority in another thread some time ago.
You didn't believe it back then and you seem not to believe it now.
There are people here who serve or have served or are involved in the defence industry.

If you think that everybody here only has public available sources and experiences than you are defenitely wrong.
In this special case it is just hilarious to accuse Eckherl of being a liar. :mad:

[eckherl]

I'm sorry but i don't believe a word you say, i think you mean to say you have seen publicly released PDF file that has been cleared up already. There is no way you have an original report, to say so proves to me that you are lying.

Tone it down a notch, if you have a issue with my integrity then please report it to the administration team instead posting this type of comment. When did I state that I have the original British report inregards to this incident, if that was the case then I would not of even mentioned it in the first place, I do have a copy that has gone thru some military circulation as a lessons learned to help prevent future fracticide incidents from occurring again, its called training. I also mentioned that there is something floating on the net inregards to this also, if you have access to it then please PM @Lobbie so that he can read it if it isn`t too much trouble for you.

[Chrom]

I see nothing wrong in using HESH as general-purpose ammo, albeit i still think more specialized ammo types (HEAT, APFSDS, HE, Thermobaric) are more effective against corresponding targets.

[eckherl]

I see nothing wrong in using HESH as general-purpose ammo, albeit i still think more specialized ammo types (HEAT, APFSDS, HE, Thermobaric) are more effective against corresponding targets.

When it comes to building structures then I will have to give Hesh a big thumbs up over Heat projectiles even though they are both filled with silly putty. (Plastic explosives)

[Chrom]

When it comes to building structures then I will have to give Hesh a big thumbs up over Heat projectiles even though they are both filled with silly putty. (Plastic explosives)
That is without any question. HEAT is generally rather weak performer both as anti-infantry and anti-structure. I thought more about HE and Thermobaric rounds.

[lobbie111]

Thanks Eckherl I look forward to your PM and you can have confidence in knowing I will not scrutinise the document or publicly release it.

Could we see HESH on new guided artillery rounds? Or at least rockets that have a top down attack function? I understand the top armour of most tanks is comparable to the side armour of the vehicle. HESH is very interesting indeed it seems to be the most capable multipurpose round that you can get.

[eckherl]

Thanks Eckherl I look forward to your PM and you can have confidence in knowing I will not scrutinise the document or publicly release it.

Could we see HESH on new guided artillery rounds? Or at least rockets that have a top down attack function? I understand the top armour of most tanks is comparable to the side armour of the vehicle. HESH is very interesting indeed it seems to be the most capable multipurpose round that you can get.

The British actually designed a ATGM called Malkara in the late 60`s so the the technology has been with us for quite some time now.

In some tank designs the armor is actually thinner on the top portion of a tank thus the reason why top attack munitions offers the best choice for target destruction, the flatness of the top surface area on tank turrets and and hulls also play a major factor in this also, its kinda hard to place angled armor in this area of a tank.

[V4.SKUNK]

PDF report of CR2 blue on blue

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C2384518-7EBA-4CFF-B127-E87871E41B51/0/boi_challenger2_25mar03.pdf

[eckherl]

PDF report of CR2 blue on blue

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C2384518-7EBA-4CFF-B127-E87871E41B51/0/boi_challenger2_25mar03.pdf

This is not the documented report that I have seen, by basing the information provided in this (official) report it is more than likely where the information that I recieved came from but was pretty much condensed down to 20 pages and slides that was used as a power point presentation for training purposes. Thanks for sharing.

@Lobbie

I will still need to get permission before I can send out the information that I have to ensure that I am not going to be committing a big no no. what V4.SKUNK sent is actually a official documented investigation with some sensitive information blacked out.

[Chrom]

Thanks Eckherl I look forward to your PM and you can have confidence in knowing I will not scrutinise the document or publicly release it.

Could we see HESH on new guided artillery rounds? Or at least rockets that have a top down attack function? I understand the top armour of most tanks is comparable to the side armour of the vehicle. HESH is very interesting indeed it seems to be the most capable multipurpose round that you can get.

155mm HE rounds, when hit atop, obliterate tanks anyway. No point making it weaker by going HESH. But for smaller calibers HESH might be attractive as multi-purpose round in cases where it is impossible to reload more specialized round - i.e. may be for small UCAVs.

For ATGM's it have zero sense - top attack or not. HEAT is far, far superior and much more reliabler here.

[eckherl]

155mm HE rounds, when hit atop, obliterate tanks anyway. No point making it weaker by going HESH. But for smaller calibers HESH might be attractive as multi-purpose round in cases where it is impossible to reload more specialized round - i.e. may be for small UCAVs.

For ATGM's it have zero sense - top attack or not. HEAT is far, far superior and much more reliabler here.

While I agree with most of your post, the technology is most surely there to achieve a design with either a artillery or ATGM munition, with some of the advancements in explosive compounds this could be a devastating round for field fortifications.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

what about COLD rounds??? HEAT rounds melt tank armour thus allowing for it to pentrate...temperature must be really high though....but has the designers given thought to extreme low temperature??? if you get it cold enough it becomes brittle and then heck you can use a hammer to smash through the armour (hypothetical)

[kato]

... wow.

(sorry for oneliner)

[Chrom]

While I agree with most of your post, the technology is most surely there to achieve a design with either a artillery or ATGM munition, with some of the advancements in explosive compounds this could be a devastating round for field fortifications. Particularly man-portable ATGM's have too small warhead to be effective against tanks with anything but HEAT and EFP loadout.

For artillery using HESH have very little sense as artillery usually have little problem changing to more specialized, more effective against particular target type rounds.

Against fortifications HE or thermobaric usually more effective.

[lobbie111]

So what about infantry mortars, Generally uniguded, 81-120mm light to heavy mortars, These would significantly benfit from having some sort of limited guidance and HESH...

[eckherl]

what about COLD rounds??? HEAT rounds melt tank armour thus allowing for it to pentrate...temperature must be really high though....but has the designers given thought to extreme low temperature??? if you get it cold enough it becomes brittle and then heck you can use a hammer to smash through the armour (hypothetical)

Hey - how about the gun type used by Dr Freeze from the Batman movie, we could just freeze the tank with crew in its tracks.:unknown

[eckherl]

Particularly man-portable ATGM's have too small warhead to be effective against tanks with anything but HEAT and EFP loadout.

For artillery using HESH have very little sense as artillery usually have little problem changing to more specialized, more effective against particular target type rounds.

Against fortifications HE or thermobaric usually more effective.

Chrom - I agree with you that with what is currentely out there and what is being tested there really isn`t any type of gain to justify cost in producing such a round. Again - the British designed a ATGM in the late 60`s with a Hesh type warhead that did not stay in it`s inventory for too long. I would not use the man portables offer too small of a diameter for projectiles argument, you can design smaller projectiles that will give you satisfactory penetration or performance results, some of the key hang up is the actual cost of such a projectile.

I have already discussed with you in past threads on the use of Thermobaric projectiles, excellent for clearing out urbanized built up area`s, but doesn`t ambient temperature play as a possible down fall for this type of projectile, could be some of the reason why there are countries that are reluctant to field it.

[Chrom]

I have already discussed with you in past threads on the use of Thermobaric projectiles, excellent for clearing out urbanized built up area`s, but doesn`t ambient temperature play as a possible down fall for this type of projectile, could be some of the reason why there are countries that are reluctant to field it.

It is more about weather conditions than temperature. TB work much worse in rainy and very windy weather.

[eckherl]

It is more about weather conditions than temperature. TB work much worse in rainy and very windy weather.

I`ll buy the rain conditions due to moisture issue`s, but also this type of round is very unpredictable when exposed to extreme cold conditions. Think for example what happens to aluminized powder when it goes from a cold condition to a warm condition, it will begin a sweating effect.

[Chrom]

I`ll buy the rain conditions due to moisture issue`s, but also this type of round is very unpredictable when exposed to extreme cold conditions. Think for example what happens to aluminized powder when it goes from a cold condition to a warm condition, it will begin a sweating effect.


I didnt heard of any problems in cold conditions - and at least in russia, you know, 2/3 year is cold ;)

Well, may be there is problem in extreme cold conditions like by -50 C, but then again such temperature is very rare and most weapons will have problems by that anyway.

Besides, by such temperatures one need special equipment. There is no doubt special thermobaric mix for extreme low temperature can be fielded if general one have problems.

[Waylander]

While I really like the HESH and think it is a nice multipurpose round I also think that modern HEs for MBTs made a good step forward.
Actually I am not sure if I would still favorite the usual HESH round like used for the british L30 when I could also get a modern HE round which can be fuzed for best effect (be it detonation at impact, after impact or airburst).

[eckherl]

While I really like the HESH and think it is a nice multipurpose round I also think that modern HEs for MBTs made a good step forward.
Actually I am not sure if I would still favorite the usual HESH round like used for the british L30 when I could also get a modern HE round which can be fuzed for best effect (be it detonation at impact, after impact or airburst).

While I do agree with your post, Hesh still seems quite popular with countries like India and Iran who still manufacture them. Have you seen the average muzzle velocity on a Hesh round, you really do not even need a tracer element.:D

[eckherl]

I didnt heard of any problems in cold conditions - and at least in russia, you know, 2/3 year is cold ;)

Well, may be there is problem in extreme cold conditions like by -50 C, but then again such temperature is very rare and most weapons will have problems by that anyway.

Besides, by such temperatures one need special equipment. There is no doubt special thermobaric mix for extreme low temperature can be fielded if general one have problems.


It doesn`t have to get that cold for the round to start having issues.;) Also it may not be that easy to design a batch for cold weather purposes, all it takes is a little moisture.

[Chrom]

It doesn`t have to get that cold for the round to start having issues.;) Also it may not be that easy to design a batch for cold weather purposes, all it takes is a little moisture.
Hmm, then how cold it should be by your information?

[eckherl]

Hmm, then how cold it should be by your information?

I really cannot give you an exact temperature, and any number given would be purely speculation on my part, can the Russians really come up with an exact temperature, it is really a unpredictable element used for this type of projectile.

[ambushb]

Well Folks, you guys being well informed have to keep in mind one thing that is the biggest battle winning factor - The RIght Place, The Right Time and The Right thing. The one thing, apart from whether the Tk in question has a rolled homogeneous armr or a Chobham Type sandwich armr or even the DU armr, whether it has an Active Protn Suite installed or not, a good tk cdr who is sound on his tactics will know that no matter what, one can be hit. There have been documented incidences of crew gettin killed by simple bolt action sniper rifles too!! It has to be given that the devp of armr today can beat most of the amn available, but one has to note the fact that the en isn't compelled to hit us when and where we want. So a peice of eqpt worth Billions is just about as good as the guy using it and the Cdr in comd.
Just sum food for thought!!!


P.S Keep up the good work, this is interesting!:)

[Chrom]

I really cannot give you an exact temperature, and any number given would be purely speculation on my part, can the Russians really come up with an exact temperature, it is really a unpredictable element used for this type of projectile.
I imagine it should be written in manual for each particular TB ammo. Need to look at it, if it is not classified.

But, as i said, at least for like -15 C there is 100% no problem, i've seen footage and reports of using TB ammo at that temperature.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

cheap car, plenty C4, sucide driver=tank destroyed

Admin. Txt deleted. It's inapprop to add smileys to these kinds of debates

[lobbie111]

cheap car, plenty C4, sucide driver=tank destroyed Admin. Text deleted

I doubt that it would get close enough to a tank to do any damage, please these comments funny as they may seem are offensive to some people and have all been said before, think before you post, trust me I know...

That scares me, a round dependant on weather no thanks...

[Chrom]

I doubt that it would get close enough to a tank to do any damage, please these comments funny as they may seem are offensive to some people and have all been said before, think before you post, trust me I know...

That scares me, a round dependant on weather no thanks...
A lot of weapon is heavily depended on weather. I mean, even simply AR have very high chance to jam in sand storm, tanks and other IFV's have problems to see in bad weather, etc.

In return, you become a tool which in 90% cases is several times more effective than other means. Pretty good trade-off in my book, considering you can still use everything else without problem when weather conditions is not suitable.