India, Russia & Advanced Nuclear Subs

[XEROX]

Blueprint of Severodvinsk-class?
According to Russky Telegraph, the hulls of the submarines laid down in India (ATV) are almost blueprints of the newest Russian attack submarine, the Severodvinsk-class, which is currently under construction in Severodvinsk, Arkhangel'sk County. Indian submarines reportedly will be outfitted with one PWR reactor with a power output of 190 MW. The same machinery is placed on the Severodvinsk-class submarine.

The Severodvinsk is a state-of-the art submarine that allegedly is so quiet that it eliminates the United States technical lead in this area, and it is armed with the new 650mm Shkval rocket that travels at 200 knots underwater


A group of Indian officers in Severodvinsk
Few years agp, a group of Indian officers arrived to Severodvinsk and settled down on Yagry island where Zvezdochka shipyard is located. Across the bay, Sevmash shipbuilding yard carries out construction of Severodvinsk-class submarines. Official returns suggest that the reason for the visit was repair works on one of the Russian Kilo-class submarines exported to India. Repairs on the submarine has been continuing for almost one year. As funding comes smoothly from India, the repair takes suspiciously long time. Put together, all the facts mentioned above give grounds to speculate that the co-operation between Russian and India on nuclear-powered submarines construction is much closer than thought before.



Is India financing half the construction cost of the Severodvinsk and Borey class nuclear submarine??

as well as the two Type 971 Akula's and is then going to lease them for a few years before buying them outright

[gf0012-aust]

The Severodvinsk is a state-of-the art submarine that allegedly is so quiet that it eliminates the United States technical lead in this area, and it is armed with the new 650mm Shkval rocket that travels at 200 knots underwater

They'd want to make a quantum leap then, I can tell you that they are nowhere near the acoustic signature reduction of a seawolf - or any one of 4 conventionals I can think of.

As for the Shkval, unless they've made some significant changes to range and guidance - then it's a fast underwater bullet that can't turn corners without bleeding such significant energy that it becomes useless. On top of that, the laaunching sub might as well hold up it's hands as it telegraphs the immediate launch point to anyone who is listening.

I worked with a US inventor in 2001 who had designed cavitating rounds for mine hunting - the project evolved into RAMICs. RAMICs pointed out clear problems with the concept. BTW. The US has worked on cavitators in the 60's. It's not a russian invention.

[XEROX]

Have you seen a film called "The Hunt For Red October" - starring Sean Connery as a USSR Nuclear submarine commander

The gist of the film is that the USSR have developed the Typhoon Class - "Boomer" - Which runs on a propultion system - magneto propulsion drive that enables the sub to move silently, making it nearly invisible to enemy sonar

Is this tech sci-fi or possible

[gf0012-aust]

Have you seen a film called "The Hunt For Red October" - starring Sean Connery as a USSR Nuclear submarine commander

The gist of the film is that the USSR have developed the Typhoon Class - "Boomer" - Which runs on a propultion system - magneto propulsion drive that enables the sub to move silently, making it nearly invisible to enemy sonar

Is this tech sci-fi or possible

A cavitation drive as exampled in the book will work, but it needs to pump an enormous amount of water through a ducting system to generate forward motion - and unlike a conventional sub it can't go in reverse.

Cavitation as applied to the Shkval and RAMICs requires an envelope to be generated at the penetration point - again that needs to be high velocity to maintain forward momentum and to get the friction resistance down.

A cavitation engine (from what I've seen) is not deliverable unless there is a conceptual leap in design.

I actually have never been impressed by Shkval/Skvall as there are so many limitations and impediments to it being a useful weapon of choice.

Fix the range, fix the guidance and fix the energy bleed issues and it has a future - until then it's a suicide weapon, as the sub that uses it will die pretty quickly from any local (ie within 10km of the shot) ASW asset.

[dabrownguy]

well i can only guess atv is quality i hope...you take time to build something then you better do it right.

[XEROX]

From what i hear (rusky forums), the ATV is not based on the Charlie class but the new Severodvinsk-class, we will just have to wait and see how good the Severodvinsk subs turn out to be :P

[RealIndian]

Russia helps India build nuclear submarine

India will complete a submarine hull and install a nuclear reactor by the end of 1998. Russia provides active assistance on the project, writes Russian Defence Ministry's daily Krasnaya Zvezda.

New Delhi plans to commission its first nuclear powered-submarine by 2004. Altogether the Defence Ministry of India intends to build 5 nuclear-powered submarines. The plans show that India, which recently joined the world nuclear club, has decided to deploy a part of its nuclear arsenal on sea-based platforms.

The Russian Defence Ministry official newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda reported that Russia is assisting India in completing the submarine's hull and installation of the nuclear reactor. This undermines previous statements made by Russian officials that the Indian Advanced Technology Vessel program is not based on a Russian technology.

Advanced Technology Vessel program
In January 1988, Russia leased to India a Charlie-I class cruise missile submarine. The prerequisites for this deal were not clear. However, upon the end of the lease in January 1991, India launched its so-called Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) program, reports Russian daily Russky Telegraph. Up to date, there are two submarines laid down at Indian shipyards. Three more are scheduled for the near future. The reactor installation will be tested shortly, to be installed on one of the subs reportedly by the end of this year.

During the past years, ATV has not been receiving sufficient funding, as most of the recourses were spent on development of nuclear bombs. This year, the Indian Defence Ministry has managed to increase funding by 15% for 1998/1999, amounting to more than $10 billion. The future funding has been guaranteed as well.

Blueprint of Severodvinsk-class?
According to Russky Telegraph, the hulls of the submarines laid down in India are almost blueprints of the newest Russian attack submarine, the Severodvinsk-class, which is currently under construction in Severodvinsk, Arkhangel'sk County. Indian submarines reportedly will be outfitted with one PWR reactor with a power output of 190 MW. The same machinery is placed on the Severodvinsk-class submarine.

No information is currently available on the weaponry for the Indian nuclear-powered submarines. In the meantime, India's friends from Russia plan to armour their Severodvinsk-class with SS-N-15/16 missiles.

A group of Indian officers in Severodvinsk
Last year, a group of Indian officers arrived to Severodvinsk and settled down on Yagry island where Zvezdochka shipyard is located. Across the bay, Sevmash shipbuilding yard carries out construction of Severodvinsk-class submarines. Official returns suggest that the reason for the visit was repair works on one of the Russian Kilo-class submarines exported to India. Repairs on the submarine has been continuing for almost one year. As funding comes smoothly from India, the repair takes suspiciously long time. Put together, all the facts mentioned above give grounds to speculate that the co-operation between Russian and India on nuclear-powered submarines construction is much closer than thought before. A model of the Severodvinsk-class Russian attack submarine. (Archive)

http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet/vessels/9518.html

[XEROX]

Thats where i got my info from, its a good russian naval site :P

Hopefully reliable too!!??!!

[RealIndian]

Thats where i got my info from, its a good russian naval site :P

Hopefully reliable too!!??!!

May be yes or may be not.Because Israel also want to collaborate with India in ATV project.....though Israel dont have any nuclear sub..... :smokingc:


Israel offers to cooperate India with nuclear sub project

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arieh O'Sullivan Dec. 10, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel has offered to cooperate with India to develop its indigenous nuclear submarine program, according to an Indian newspaper. Israeli and India officials were silent about the report Wednesday.

The Hindu said an understanding was reached during a visit to Israel by a high-level technical team from the Defense Research and Development Organization in late November.

The issue was first raised during Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's visit to India in September, the daily reported, quoting Israeli defense sources.

The report came as Israel and Russia are battling for top spot as India's chief arms supplier. Russia has traditionally held that position, but Israeli defense sales have reportedly surpassed theirs.

India has been slowly progressing in its endeavor to produce nuclear submarines, known as an ATV (advanced technology vessel). Russia has provided the reactors for two vessels. They are expected to be armed with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles.

While The Hindu reported that the cooperation with Israel would harm Indo-Russian cooperation in the field. But Russia recently finalized a deal to give New Delhi the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier and lease an Akula II class nuclear submarine to the Indian Navy for three years.

The Russians were counting on making a profit by refitting the carrier with top-of-the-line aircraft and avionics.

India had leased a nuclear submarine from the former Soviet Union from 1988-1991. The skills acquired then have been lost to its navy. It would take approximately 30 months to train another nuclear submarine crew.

The first sub is reportedly expected to be operational in 2007.

Local defense industries have perfected a number of electronics for Israel's own advanced diesel/electric Dolphin class submarines which could be beneficial for the Indian subs.

A delegation of Indian defense industry executives was here last month to review areas of cooperation. It was the guest of the Defense Ministry department that deals with foreign defense assistance and exports.

Arms trade figures are considered secret, and Israeli defense and aerospace firms, as well as most defense officials, are reluctant to comment on their transactions with India.

On Wednesday, Defense Ministry spokeswoman Rachel Niedak-Ashkenazi issued a laconic statement: "The Ministry of Defense does not divulge information regarding its connections with foreign countries."

Queries to the Indian Embassy drew a similar reaction. "As a matter of policy, we don't make any comments on any individual defense deals," said Subrata Das, the first secretary.

Admin: Provide the links in future or your posts will risk deletion.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1071029335612&p=1008596981749

Admin: You owe Sri a favour!

[XEROX]

I thought Israel converted their Dolphin submarines nuclear?? :?

[adsH]

Have you seen a film called "The Hunt For Red October" - starring Sean Connery as a USSR Nuclear submarine commander

The gist of the film is that the USSR have developed the Typhoon Class - "Boomer" - Which runs on a propultion system - magneto propulsion drive that enables the sub to move silently, making it nearly invisible to enemy sonar

Is this tech sci-fi or possible

its Tom Clancy's hypothetical world where everything works out for his story. But he has some good ideas. in the US science fiction writers are second most important after geeks and scientists.

[gf0012-aust]

its Tom Clancy's hypothetical world where everything works out for his story. But he has some good ideas. in the US science fiction writers are second most important after geeks and scientists.

But their is some element of fact in it. The Russians actually had a sub that went missing called the "Red November"

[adsH]

i guess all great tales are based on some real events but it was a good book. i like Tom clancy books because he educates his readers.

[RealIndian]

The ATV Saga
http://www.forceindia.net/technology.asp

By Prasun K Sengupta

1 ) The first functional ATV will be launched by 2007 , It will be an SSGN and displacing some 6,500 tonnes and will be a derivative of Russia's new Severodvinsk-class(yasen) SSGN.

2 ) The ATV will be a multirole platform and will be employed for carrying out long-distance interdiction and surveillance of both submerged targets as well as principal surface combatants, It will also facilitate Special Forces operations by covertly landing such forces ashore.

3 ) The ATV pressure hull will be fabricated with the HY-80 steel(sourced from Russia) as much experience was gained under the direction of P.C. Deb the then director of Naval Chemical and Metallurgical Laboratory.

4 ) The Project 670A Skat (Charlie-1 class ) was discarded by early 1990 in favor of a derived design from Yasen.Three countries are actively supplying the related technologies and weapons system off the shelf for the projected ATV fleet Russia , France and Israel.

5 ) The Prime minister heads the Steering and Funding Committee of the project which is monitored by the scientific adviser to the defence minister and DRDO chief currently Dr. V.K. Aatre , The ATV project Director is Vice Admiral D.S.P Varma , here are Six naval officers of the rank of rear admiral who runs the various segments of the programme such as weapons system, platform management system, combat management system, acoustic signature management and sonars, Integrated powerplant/Propulsion system and communication/electronic warfare while two other rear admirals head the two large ,state-owned manufacturing facilities.

6 ) One such facility is in Hyderabad to collaborate with the DRDO lab, BHEL for nuclear powerplants heat exchanger system and Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd for special steel requirements , The second is a large ship building facility tucked behind High walls and barbed wires with a dry dock and boilers, at Vishakapatnam where the first ATV hull is being fabricated. with imported HY-80 steel.

7 ) In addition the Navy has Russian designed facility - The Special safety Service - at Vishakapatnam that can monitor the health of people working on the SSGN and the radiation leaks emanating from the vessel .there is also a small complex at Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic research at Kalpakkam near Chennai.

8 ) The Two 90-megawatt pressurised water reactors (PWR) procured from Russia four years ago are dynamically tested both onshore and offshore.One of them will eventually be sealed into a 600-tonne titanium shell of about 10m in diameter that will be lowered into the ATV pressure hull in what will be a critical operation.

9 ) To support the project , several national universities and both public and private sector manufacturing companies have been employed on an ad hoc basis, including Larsen and Toubro Ltd for designing and fabricating the power plant modules, MDL for building the propulsion system modules , BEL for the platform sensors and communications system, TCS for integration of ATV combat and platform management system, which will be imported from Armaris of France and be identical to those installed on the 12 Scorpene-class diesel electric submarine (SSK) the navy plans to acquire in the future. Russian assistance has been substantial by way of off-the-shelf supply of the main reactors plus related structural parts and overall design inputs.

10 ) The ATV will feature double-hull construction ,dramatically increasing the reserve buoyancy by as much as three times over that of a single-hull vessel.Ballast tanks and other gear will be located between the inner and outer hulls and limber holes will be provided for the free-flooding sections between the hulls. The ATV pressure hull will have seven compartment and the standoff distance between the outer and inner hulls will be considerable,reducing the possibility of inner hull damage . The retractable masts viewed from bow to stern will include an optronic periscope , one surface search navigation radar and one low level air defence radar, radio and satellite communication antennae,plus one integrated electronic warfare suite. The ATV pressure hull will be rated for a diving depth to 600m , The SSGN will carry sufficient supplies for an endurance of 100 days and will be operated by a crew compliment of 70 , The outer hull's anechoic and vibration damping coatings along with other advanced quitening techniques will be supplied off the shelf by Russia. Present plans call for producing an initial two ATV with a projected fleet strength of five by 2025.


PROPULSION SYSTEM

11 ) Initally navy planners wanted to design the ATV as a near-exact replica of the Project 670A Skat SSGN , but with a BARC designed and built PWR for propulsion , Three different types of indigenous reactor design were considered.A water-cooled water moderated reactor was designed by BARC and its core had 248-252 fuel assemblies. The fuel was uranium-aluminium-dispersed fuel (cermet) in steel or zirconium cladding. However the first design was rejected in late 1976, The second in 1979 and third in 1981. Despite this BARC succeeded in fabricating a pilot PWR in the early 1990, In late December 1995 it was reported that the DRDO had made considerable progress in the design of a pre-test capsule (PTC) of titanium steel, fabricated in 1994 by L&T at hazira in Gujarat.from there it was transferred to Kalpakkam , the PTC containing the BARC-built pilot PWR was to be have been installed in the ATV final shell, and had a hull dia of 10 meter, Both the PTC and the pilot PWR were unsuccessfully tested at Kalpakkam in Nov-Dec 1995, failures were caused by several integration and fabrication problems , In June 1996 the programme reportedly suffered further setbacks following additional failed tests of PWR. Problems in fabricating the containment vessel also occurred.

12 ) On 5 October 2000 after India and Russia inked an agreement on a news blackout on sensitive information exchanges in the area of defense and nuclear co-operation and appointed watchdogs to enforce compliance with the new agreement.Moscow agreed to supply an initial two VM-5 PWR and related propulsion and machinery off-the shelf, These arrived at Vishakapatnam in late 2000.The ATV will have double layer silencing system for the power train , The main propulsion machinery will consist of VM-5, with an OK-650b high density reactor core rated at 90mWand a GT3A turbine developing 35mW , Two auxiliary diesels rated at 750hp will provide emergency power,the nuclear propulsion system will drive a sever-blade fixed- pitch propeller and provide a maximum submerged speed of 33 knots and a surface speed of 10 knots , A reserve propeller system, powered by two motors rated at 370kw, will provide a speed of 4 knots.

13 ) The PWR fuel will be uranium-aluminum dispersed fuel (cermet) in steel or zirconium cladding, The main challenge faced for the design of certain safety features in submarine nuclear reactors is the design of control rods insertion and withdrawal mechanism.Throughout 1980, India tried in vain to buy a rod worth minimiser (RWM) used by reactor operators to guide and monitor the proper sequence for the withdrawal and insertion of control rods, The control rod technology for use with the RWM has since been developed indigenously.

WEAPONS FIT

14 ) The ATV will pack quite a punch with six torpedo tubes of 533mm diameter , which will be able to fire wake-homing , acoustic , and high-speed wire guided torpedoes reportedly the Russian TEST-71MKE and TEST-71ME-NK model and the Franco-Italian Black Shark, along with eight vertically launched missiles launched under water from launcher cells mounted aft of the SSGN conning tower, The principal conventional offensive armament of the ATV will comprise up to 12 3M-14E subsonic cruise missile for both antiship strikes and land attack developed by Russia's Ekaterinburg-based Novator Experimental Machine Design Bureau. equipped with a active radar seeker developed by ST Petersburg-based Radar-MMS the 3M-14E will be fired from the ATV's 533mm torpedo tubes and have a range of 275 km , The missile incidentally was first unveiled in New Delhi at the Defexpo-2004 early last february.

15 ) The ATV will also have the ability to carry up to eight ready to launch vertically launched "Strategic" cruise missile each with a range of 800 Km that will be armed with nuclear warhead, Although DRDO's ADE and DARE have since 1990 been trying to develop such a cruse missile called "SAGARIKA" it was decided in November-2003 that the ADE and DARE would co-developwith RAFAEL of Israel such a cruise missile and its vertical launched canister,inertial guidance, launch-control and solid-fuel rocket booster systems.The miniaturized nuclear warhead for the missile will however be developed solely by BARC and DRDO. The nuclear-tipped missile will be kept disassembled on-shore in peacetime and be deployed on the ATV only during "extreme national emergencies"

CMS and SENSORS

16 ) The ATV combat management system (CMS) will be a derivative of the SUBTICS system, developed by ARMARIS for the Scorpene class SSK, The periscope with an optronic mast will be supplied by SAGEM of France.The Mid/LOW Frequency active/passive sonar suite is now being developed by DRDO under its "PANCHENDRIYA" programme, The definative sonar model called " USHUS" is being developed by DRDO's Kochis- based NPOL and will be series produced by state owned BEL, Underwater Omnidirectional transducers have been developed by DRDO's Pune based ARDE , The transducers are 60mm hollow spherical elements fabricated from lead zirconate titanate type-4 material. The integrated electronic warfare system of Israels 4CH(V)2 TIMNEX II while Elta electronics will provide the I-Band surface search radar. The ATV VLF communication suite will be built by BEL.

An Interim Solution

17 ) For training the first type rated crew for manning the first ATV , the navy has decided to lease for a three-year period from Rosoboronexport FSUE and at a cost of US300 Million , One project 971A (Shuka- or Akula-II class SSGN . This SSGN will be 110m long and displace upto 12,770 tonnes, It will have a maximum speed of 35 knots submerged with a maximum diving depth of 600m, The leased SSGN will be armed with TEST-71ME-NK and TEST -71MKE electric remote control homing torpedoes plus the KALIBRPLE weapon system and will include 12 3M-14E and Novtar built 3m54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship missile , These missile will be launched from the SSGN six 533mm launch tubes . A 250 strong group of navy personnel has been undergoing type conversion on an Akula II class SSGN at Komsomolsk-on-Amur since late last year.

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[doggychow14]

i thought the ATV was based on the charlie-II?? Most reliable sources seem to think so 2. how would india get a Severodvinsk-class type sub when the russians didn't even finish the project yet. http://www.bellona.no/imaker?sub=1&id=9515 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/atv.htm

[turin]

I thought Israel converted their Dolphin submarines nuclear??

The Dolphin SSK's are equipped with 650 mm tubes capable of firing Harpoon or comparable missiles. Since these missiles could be used to carry a nuclear warhead, this fact has led to the speculation of the Dolphins being "nuclear". That has nothing to do with a nuclear propulsion system however. The Dolphins use conventional diesel engines.

thought the ATV was based on the charlie-II?? Most reliable sources seem to think so 2. how would india get a Severodvinsk-class type sub when the russians didn't even finish the project yet.

Well, there is a difference between cooperation in development and actually "getting a sub". There seems to be extensive cooperation with russian engineers, so the speculation about the base design can include the Severodvinsk-design as well. However, looking at the current status of this russian development, its unlikely IMO that the indian navy will launch such a vessel resembling the Severodvinsk around 2007 while the russians are getting late more and more.
I think, the Akula is a much more likely candidate.

[XEROX]

Maybe someone can clarify if India "financed" the completion of the Severodvinsk-class sub :?

[adsH]

Maybe someone can clarify if India "financed" the completion of the Severodvinsk-class sub :?

there is no doubt in my mind that it was in-fact the Indians who actually paid for the project. infact the Indians have the Cash and the Russians the Head. No offense here i know the Indians are very capable people but at the moment Russians are doing the thinking.

[doggychow14]

i doubt the ATV would be as capable as an akula. it is using 20 percent enriched uraniun (same as Russian 2nd generation subs). it is India's first nuclear sub. making that big of a jump when it is based on an old Charlie class is not likely. for reference go back to my links i posted earlier

[turin]

Yeah well, I didnt say it is as capable as an Akula, only that it might be partly based on these specifications. However I guess, that the Akula would be a more likely candidate in terms of knowledge sharing than Severodvinsk. Actually we no nothing of the ATV, except some ideas of its propulsion (as we dont know anything on technological details of the Severodvinsk), so everything is just a guess.
I checked your links too and as fas as I can see they are pretty old, so the reliability of that information is at least doubtful. Military projects usually tend to change in terms of details and roadmaps during development and I dont think, ATV is any difference in that.

As for indian financing of Severodvinsk: I seriously doubt that Russia would allow a foreign country that much influence over its new top-of-the-line sub. Granted, Russia is rather short on money, however IMO at least the top priority projects are excluded from foreign influence due to concerns of national security and the new SSN surely belong to them.

[doggychow14]

yes the links have not been updated for some time. but global security has proven itself to be a reliable source.

[Pathfinder-X]

Ummm......no! Globalsecurity is the last place you wanna look if you want to find anything unbiased and credible. Many of their article contains errors and biased opinion. For example, they would use the term "invincible" to describe a weapon system which made many people doubt their professionalism. If you want less biased articles on weapon systems, try these:

http://www.army-technology.com

http://www.airforce-technology.com

http://www.naval-technology.com

http://www.kanwa.com (nice place for news and info, but don't believe everything kanwa says)

Currently we are building our own data base for weapons, so you don't have to go look anywhere else for info.

[adsH]

As for indian financing of Severodvinsk: I seriously doubt that Russia would allow a foreign country that much influence over its new top-of-the-line sub. Granted, Russia is rather short on money, however IMO at least the top priority projects are excluded from foreign influence due to concerns of national security and the new SSN surely belong to them.

Turin were not talking about a normal sate here!! Russia is or was bankrupt afew years ago. its Military production machines was stalled in a matter of speaking. they have no money to spend on there national defense article production.

Isn't it better to have something being developed and produced rather then Have nothing. the longer they wait for there Economic recovery the more chances are they would loose the capability to manufacture the key items that they are good at. India is there "big ticket", its fairly loyal and all it asks in return is cheaper rated equipments and R&D involvement.

[doggychow14]

global security may not use the best choices of words, however their specs, for the most part, are fairly accurate. even if russia was short of money they wouldn't let another country risk the export market.

[Pathfinder-X]

global security may not use the best choices of words, however their specs, for the most part, are fairly accurate. even if russia was short of money they wouldn't let another country risk the export market.

Specs in there are far from accurate, I clearly remembers they posted the range of BrahMos to 400km when it's less than 300. The problems are that they don't edit their article and their tendency to predict. While they make a good source of info, they are not all that trust worthy.

Ok back to the topic
I have doubts whether the sub will be as capable as Indian claims her to be. After all, this is the first time the Indians try to construct SSN on their own, although with asistance from Russian and Iraelis, it's no easy task. It will probably has the capability of Sierra Class.

[doggychow14]

doesn't the sierra class have similar performance to the LA class? this would also be a bit big of jump.

[Pathfinder-X]

The upgraded Sierra class is a little superior to early Los Angeles class in terms of non-acoustic detection system, integrated acoustic countermeasures system and deeper operational depth. Even with upgrades it is still noisier than the LA. I was referring to was the early Sierra class back in the late 1970's.

[gf0012-aust]

The upgraded Sierra class is a little superior to early Los Angeles class in terms of non-acoustic detection system, integrated acoustic countermeasures system and deeper operational depth. Even with upgrades it is still noisier than the LA. I was referring to was the early Sierra class back in the late 1970's.

Nope, current Sierras are noisier than an LA at specific db levels at a specific depth - and those depths are tactical ones. I would not be rating a Sierra as having a superior signature at all.

They are certainly noisier than the current US platforms.

[Pathfinder-X]

I never said Sierra were quieter than LA, I said the non-acoustic detection system, integrated acoustic countermeasures system and deeper operational depth is superior to LA and nothing else. LA still has the upper hand against all rusky SSN, with the possible exception of Akula II.

[gf0012-aust]

I never said Sierra were quieter than LA, I said the non-acoustic detection system, integrated acoustic countermeasures system and deeper operational depth is superior to LA and nothing else. LA still has the upper hand against all rusky SSN, with the possible exception of Akula II.

I won't comment on anything but the integrated acoustic countermeasures system. The US vessels are superior in that respect. They're also in the process of making a quantum leap again WRT to signature management - definitely superior to any non US nuke - including the Rubis.

[dabrownguy]

Heres a good question. Is it possible to take a out dated carrier and give it a total refit so it can carry like a hundred cruise missiles,Sams and Ballistic missiles? Instead of carring large aircrafts it could carry missiles to attack. Imagine a carrier launchin 20 cruise missiles at once. Wouldn't that be effective. It could also be used to carry troops.

[gf0012-aust]

Heres a good question. Is it possible to take a out dated carrier and give it a total refit so it can carry like a hundred cruise missiles,Sams and Ballistic missiles? Instead of carring large aircrafts it could carry missiles to attack. Imagine a carrier launchin 20 cruise missiles at once. Wouldn't that be effective. It could also be used to carry troops.

The USN was going to use that concept in the "Arsenal Ship". The idea was dropped recently as being less useful than other solutions.

Interestingly enough, the pennant numbers would have continued on from the last of the Missouri Class battleships.

The SSGN is more survivable and flexible. It can launch 184 cruise missiles.

[Soldier]

The upgraded Sierra class is a little superior to early Los Angeles class in terms of non-acoustic detection system, integrated acoustic countermeasures system and deeper operational depth. Even with upgrades it is still noisier than the LA. I was referring to was the early Sierra class back in the late 1970's.

Nope, current Sierras are noisier than an LA at specific db levels at a specific depth - and those depths are tactical ones. I would not be rating a Sierra as having a superior signature at all.

They are certainly noisier than the current US platforms.

How can one sub be noisier then a specific dB levels at a specific depth? :roll I had been working with dB's since last 15 years now and this whole statement does not make any sense. If it is noisier, it has more dB...and the rule of physics is that if dB is higher, no matter what depth you go to or how much shallow waters you are in, it will always be having more dB of noise level. Saying that specific dB level at specific depth does not even make any sense.
GF, you are missing something here...

[gf0012-aust]

How can one sub be noisier then a specific dB levels at a specific depth? :roll I had been working with dB's since last 15 years now and this whole statement does not make any sense. If it is noisier, it has more dB...and the rule of physics is that if dB is higher, no matter what depth you go to or how much shallow waters you are in, it will always be having more dB of noise level. Saying that specific dB level at specific depth does not even make any sense.
GF, you are missing something here...

Untrue, there are differences in the way that a sub acts as a transducer at different layers. That variation can be as much as a 20db variable throught the operational diving range of the sub.

There is also the issue of the waters that the sub operates in. Issues such as density etc impact upon the amount of transduction that can occur.

Are you working with db at a sub warfare level or at a music level?

check yr PM

[Soldier]

How can one sub be noisier then a specific dB levels at a specific depth? :roll I had been working with dB's since last 15 years now and this whole statement does not make any sense. If it is noisier, it has more dB...and the rule of physics is that if dB is higher, no matter what depth you go to or how much shallow waters you are in, it will always be having more dB of noise level. Saying that specific dB level at specific depth does not even make any sense.
GF, you are missing something here...

Untrue, there are differences in the way that a sub acts as a transducer at different layers. That variation can be as much as a 20db variable throught the operational diving range of the sub.

There is also the issue of the waters that the sub operates in. Issues such as density etc impact upon the amount of transduction that can occur.

Are you working with db at a sub warfare level or at a music level?

check yr PM

I stand as to what I said. One sub can and will have various dB level at different depths, but saying that sub-A will have less noise then sub-B on a certain dB at a certain depth is absolutly wrong. Noise of a sub-A, if is more then sub-B in 1000 ft depth, will still be more in 5000 feet depth. If the sub has noise cancellation technology built in, it will work regardless of depth without much noise.

I work with dB's on a spectrum and Noise cancellation test equipment made by Dolby & Bose Labs. Dolby is the big contributor to American or friendly nations when it comes to noise cancellation devices including some real hightech equipment. They are the biggest contributors in US, don't know about other countries though.

As to working with sound, be it in entertainment industry or subwarfare..the characterstics of sound never changes. Any hightech device with the right interface can measure soundwave regardless. Sound does not change its behaviour and characterstics always remain the same.

[gf0012-aust]

I stand as to what I said. One sub can and will have various dB level at different depths, but saying that sub-A will have less noise then sub-B on a certain dB at a certain depth is absolutly wrong. Noise of a sub-A, if is more then sub-B in 1000 ft depth, will still be more in 5000 feet depth. If the sub has noise cancellation technology built in, it will work regardless of depth without much noise.

I work with dB's on a spectrum and Noise cancellation test equipment made by Dolby & Bose Labs. Dolby is the big contributor to American or friendly nations when it comes to noise cancellation devices including ideas. They are the biggest contributors in US, don't know about other countries though.

No, you're dealing with noise in a different manner. Check yr PM. The US doesn't have this technology. It's been developed and finessed by Australia

[Soldier]

I stand as to what I said. One sub can and will have various dB level at different depths, but saying that sub-A will have less noise then sub-B on a certain dB at a certain depth is absolutly wrong. Noise of a sub-A, if is more then sub-B in 1000 ft depth, will still be more in 5000 feet depth. If the sub has noise cancellation technology built in, it will work regardless of depth without much noise.

I work with dB's on a spectrum and Noise cancellation test equipment made by Dolby & Bose Labs. Dolby is the big contributor to American or friendly nations when it comes to noise cancellation devices including ideas. They are the biggest contributors in US, don't know about other countries though.

No, you're dealing with noise in a different manner. Check yr PM. The US doesn't have this technology. It's been developed and finessed by Australia

I replied your PM. US had for very long noise cancellation technology and so did many other countries. But they work on the same fundamental rule, which I told you in the PM. Care to paste some more in-depth information about the technology or if that is not possible then only the fundamental on as how it works as I would really like to dwell in what Australia came up with?

[gf0012-aust]

I replied your PM. US had for very long noise cancellation technology and so did many other countries. But they work on the same fundamental rule, which I told you in the PM.

Yes, Prev technology solutions work on the same principles, This does not. Hence why the interest in it. A sub is comprised of many different components, sometimes up to 25 different metal types are used in its construction. The construction, materials used etc... the depth operated at, size of the vessel, behaviour of the metal at different depths all makes a huge difference (in detection technology). Think about it. A sub can be identified at 300m by the way that it moves, drifts and the way that it acts as a transmitter and a reflector. Once you get a lock on it's profile, you can start to even determine which way it is pointing.

Care to paste some more in-depth information about the technology or if that is not possible then only the fundamental on as how it works as I would really like to dwell in what Australia came up with?

No. Not possible. It's a military use technology only and is not in the public domain. All I can say is that it works and is the fundamental reason why I have regular food on my table. If the tech didn't work then my company wouldn't survive.

It is dealing with NV, and harmonics in a completely different manner.

[Awang se]

Maybe this thing is quiter and more capable then 688 or maybe 688(I). Hell, even the Akula II is quiter then 688(I). But i don't know much about seawolf. I heard they stop after two was build and plan instead on new small of a kind SSN called Virginia, am i right?

[XEROX]

What will be the primary weapons (SLCM) used for the ATV armament,

the submarine will have VLS tubes capable of firing multiple weapons!!

Is it BrahMos, PopEye, or the Sagarika - all possibly nuclear tipped :?

[dabrownguy]

Guys I heard India began construction on the P-15A dystroyers. Force magazine said it would have VL Brahmos. If this is true than it would have quite capable stealth. Any body have another source on this?

[gf0012-aust]

Guys I heard India began construction on the P-15A dystroyers. Force magazine said it would have VL Brahmos. If this is true than it would have quite capable stealth. Any body have another source on this?

Stealth has nothing to do with weapons fitment, its about low observability across a visual and electronic spectrum.

[dabrownguy]

So VL weapons don't help with stealth?

[gf0012-aust]

So VL weapons don't help with stealth?

No. Not unless it was a fairly crappy hull design in the first place. ;) One would assume that the VLS caps were below the "gunnels". If not, and they are proud of the gunnels then yes they would create another reflection point.

A detection system is going to pick up a vessel on other appendages way before a VLS cap triggers something.

Stealth in vessels usually embraces smooth hull designs, flowing and conformal superstructures, minimised areas where masts and comms equipment is blended into a housing, masked exhaust stacks etc...

Unless someone is a drunken fisherman and can't tell the difference between a warship with VLS and a cargo ship with a flush deck, then there isn't much "stealth" benefit just in a VLS pack. (see gunnels comment again)

[dabrownguy]

Great than Kashin class dystroyers are still good.

[lalith prasad]

actuall the p15a bangalore have stealth incorporated in their design like the chinese type 54c .

[dabrownguy]

The 8 VLS cruise missiles on the ATV. They can be used for antiship role or land attack instead of nuceluer attack. Right?

[gf0012-aust]

The 8 VLS cruise missiles on the ATV. They can be used for antiship role or land attack instead of nuceluer attack. Right?

It all depends on what the missile load out is.

[Awang se]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nssn/images/nssn12.jpg

[lalith prasad]

how does the french rubis and and the other french nuke subs compare with us ,russian,british and chinese subs.french nuke subs are very small does it provide them with any kind of stealth advantage. :?:

[dabrownguy]

It says that the ATV would have 8 VLS on the conning tower. Is that different from the ones for the other 8?

[KGB]

"as for the Shkval, unless they've made some significant changes to range and guidance - then it's a fast underwater bullet that can't turn corners without bleeding such significant energy that it becomes useless. On top of that, the laaunching sub might as well hold up it's hands as it telegraphs the immediate launch point to anyone who is listening."


It's supposed to be supersonic isn't it? (speed of sound is slower under water). So theoretically, if you're a sub, and a shkval's headed toward you, you won't hear it coming?

[JOE]

As for indian financing of Severodvinsk: I seriously doubt that Russia would allow a foreign country that much influence over its new top-of-the-line sub. Granted, Russia is rather short on money, however IMO at least the top priority projects are excluded from foreign influence due to concerns of national security and the new SSN surely belong to them.[/quote]

Turin were not talking about a normal sate here!! Russia is or was bankrupt afew years ago. its Military production machines was stalled in a matter of speaking. they have no money to spend on there national defense article production.

Isn't it better to have something being developed and produced rather then Have nothing. the longer they wait for there Economic recovery the more chances are they would loose the capability to manufacture the key items that they are good at. India is there "big ticket", its fairly loyal and all it asks in return is cheaper rated equipments and R&D involvement.


i think people are completely guessing here, as nobody knows the actual position. so let me comment on this as i have more practical expriense

first ATV IS NOT based On charlie class.it is based on Severodvinsk class.

russians are helping indian in building this sub in India. now confusion is that russians have not yet completed this sub themself. so how can they help india. this questions do not arise between india and russia. russians provide india with systems that they do not have themself. anybody in indian defense forces will know about it.by the way russians too are making this kind of sub simultaneously in their yard.

India is not financing Severodvinsk class submarine that is built in russia. it is their own project.

india is financing building of two akula class II submarine which are 80% and 50% complete but russians do not have money to complete it. so India is financing the building of those two submaraines.

regarding these nuclear submarines joining india.you will not know about it. usually every body will keep quite. like during leasing of charlie class submarine. it took two years before people knoew about it. that too only when US govt flashed the news. as one of their survellance planes took the picture accidently.