Why PAF didnt get Gripens

[SABRE]

A few days ago after a long debate on Gripen, I found email address of Gripen International's Communications Director Mr.Owe Wagermark.
This is what he replied to my email.

1) My Email:

Dear Mr. Wagermark;

A month ago media in Pakistan reported that PAF (Pakistan AirForce) is
considering to buy AWACS, SAAB-2000 & SAAB JAS39-Gripen for Sweden and on July 4th our President is due to visit Sweden for this deal.
I am a member of a defence forum www.defencetalk.com where the subject of PAF buying Gripen mountain hicked to the peek.
About few days ago our Televised media confirmed the purchase of 14
SAAB-2000 Planes and 4 AWACs from Sweden but there is still now news on
Gripen which interest people more than any thing.

Can you confirm wheather Swedish government has rejected the Gripen deal or wheather the deal is on or wheather no such deal has taken place?


2)Mr. Wagermark's Reply:


Dear Gripen Friend,
The Gripen discussions are not at all on the Swedish governments table and
consequently they can not reject an issue that even not is on their table! - so therefor the whole issue is way out of proportion in media/debate.

Best regards!

Owe Wagermark
Communications Director
Gripen International

-------------------------------------------------

So we didnt get Gripens because we never asked for them.

[P.A.F]

pretty grim reply :D: . anyway we should go for the french aircraft now! where highly likeely not to get f-16's. rafale or mirage will be good.

[gf0012-aust]

So we didnt get Gripens because we never asked for them.

Hence once of my prev comments about an irresponsible media fueling rumours and people accepting it in good faith as "truth"

It was also why I tried to give some logical reasons as to why it may not happen and some people became even more excited at me.

Lesson No: 1. Always wait for the Govt press release.

[SABRE]

What worries me is that we havent even asked for a front line jet yet. We r still evaluating. May be Gripen has been evaluated but for some reason government is delaying the purchase. So far PAF is making no effort in purchasing new Jets. ACM says new jets in 3 yrs. I wounder what they are lookin at.

P.A.F Mirage2000-5 are highly likely to be inducted in PAF inventory but not as the main Primary front liner but secondary. Not many knw that PAF is considering F-18. They will get F-16s from Belgium but time is still unknwn.
Rafeal and Ef-2000 have SW Glitchs. If we havent bid for Gripens we should now. It is a great jet.
Besides upgraded PAF mirage3 and 5 are as good as new mirage2000 so PAF is in no hurry for buying them.

[srirangan]

SABRE,
do you really think they're gonna discuss military hardware related negotiations to some guy who emails them?

[SABRE]

SABRE,
do you really think they're gonna discuss military hardware related negotiations to some guy who emails them?

Yes

Some guy happens to be a director communications. All info passes through him and at times company's director of communications are present during any kind of negociations. After all they r the ppl who have to face the press. Besides all the Gripen presentations are related to him. If Musharaf had asked for Gripens than he would have certainly gone through the presentation & if he had the director communications would have known.

Director Communication of SAAB has already visited Pakistan and Musharaf in Sweden along with high ranking Swedesh officers when Pakistan formally bid for the SAAB2000 and AWACS. So if Director Communication of SAAB is such an importent person than director communication of Gripen would hve to be no less.
Deesault Director Communication also visited India before selling the mirage2000-5. So these r importent ppl.

[yasin_khan]

I was dreaming for grippens flying in Pakistan.If grippens are not coming then go for rafle.

[SABRE]

I was dreaming for grippens flying in Pakistan.If grippens are not coming then go for rafle.

Rafle is like a hard heavy bomber. It was made to carry heavy wapons that mirage couldnt or which effected the sprinting speed of Mirges. Besides it has some flwas and software glitchs.

I still want to see Gripens. I think Pakistan doesnt want to rush into things. They first want to establish a strong friendship and military relations with Sweden and in two years of time InshAllah they will buy Gripens without any trouble and also its technology. This will make Pakistan Gripen dealer in whole of Asia. Revenue for both Pakistan and Sweden. I think even China would like to buy some of these Jets no matter what their policies this Jet fits their criteria.

[srirangan]

Yes

Some guy happens to be a director communications. All info passes through him and at times company's director of communications are present during any kind of negociations.

I'm not sayin' that he doesn't have the info, my question is why will he tell you? Are you married to his daughter? His job forces him not to divulge details to outsiders, and I hardly believe he's gonna tell someone who just emails him one fine day.

[P.A.F]

well we should bloody ask for them then. i swear man the can see the gripens fit into the PAF so nicely alongside the AWAC's. and that would make a good force for all types of missions. it would be such a shame if we just left a high-tech jet like the gripen. :? . 3 years is to short. PAf need the jets NOW. :cop

[SABRE]

Lesson No: 1. Always wait for the Govt press release.

Behold the 1st commandment.

[SABRE]

Yes

Some guy happens to be a director communications. All info passes through him and at times company's director of communications are present during any kind of negociations.

I'm not sayin' that he doesn't have the info, my question is why will he tell you? Are you married to his daughter? His job forces him not to divulge details to outsiders, and I hardly believe he's gonna tell someone who just emails him one fine day.

Listen if you dont want to believe this than dont. His job is to give all the general information to public and press(Hide only confidential). Do u even knw what director communication is? oh wait u r computer guy what do u knw abt running a business and giving an information to public. Its a Business Administrators Job and thats what I do. Not only I am a business student I am an intern for my company's communication manager.

If you want me to farward you my mail I can do that as a proof, but whats the use you just wont back off would you.

[Libyan]

Told ya so!



Sweden will not sell pakistan advanced fighter aircraft.


Sweden has a history of strict neutrality

Th united states had diffuculty buying anti tank weapons from sweden even though the united states supplies sweden with rocket engines,and jet engines.


Pakistan has almost no chance of new purchases


lets see


China is willing to sell almost anything


South africa does not manufacture fighter aircraft, the denel cheetah dmIII upgrade is not completely south african


Israel will not sell to pakistan


Russia is an ally of India and will not sell to Pakistan


Ukraine does not manufacture fighter aircraft, perhaps pakistan can purchase some old su-20 or mig-23's

France is selling the Mirage 2000 to India, which means that if Pakistan was to buy the mirage 2000 they would be facing the exact same aircraft in combat, who knows if the two aircraft can even identify the other as a threat?


the UK it highly unlikely that pakistan can afford to buy the Tornado or Eurofighter or that the nations of europe would allow pakistan to purchase them


the US , The united states will have hundreds of f-16's,f-15's and f-18a's which are soon to be replaced they will be on the market at fractions of their cost,

The US will not sell to pakistan due to f-16s being flown to china for technical exploitation by China.


this leaves pakistan needing Chinese aircraft , or perhaps buying f-5e copies from Iran.

[corsair7772]

Oh for cryin out aloud! whats this poilicy about not selling fighters in war zones? where else do you sell your weapons? Gandhis neighburhood? Its all a big hippocracy. If wed offered to buy more aircraft w/o price reduction you shouldve seen em come running for our pockets.

And libyan, were trying to counter Su-30s and mirages here, thus we do it with J-10s and Rafales and watever. NOT su-20s and f-5es.

Since were not gettin the gripen we could go for the J-10 and the chinese built version of the Su-30. Aparently its 15% inferior to the Indian su-30 when fitted with chinese avionincs which isnt so bad at all.

[mysterious]

Well Pakistan never uses Chinese avionics so we can be rest assured that if we get the J-10 or the Chinese built Su-30 then we'd put some western avionics on to them. Well for people who still believe that Gripen was 'denied' to PAF should read the darn thread again! Things get 'denied' when you ask for them; when in the first place, the Gripen wasn't asked for, how the hell did it get 'denied'? Sabre's efforts should be acknowledged that he finally got hold of someone important to tell him the real story. Thnx man! Peace out. :smokingc:

[corsair7772]

great goin sabre. i rmmbr mailin ravi rikhye ( a VERY controversial indian defence analyst) once askin em for a possible orbat of indo pak armed forces in 2010. real nice guy. sent me a whole list. these darn swedes however are anuther story. a bunch of buisness man really. nuthing else.

I have my doubts wether we asked for the gripens or not. Cause my dads friend in the PAF actually went to sweden with a team from the airforce to evaluate it. so basically we did evaluate it but we didnt ask for it. Mustve found a glitch somewhere think. Either political or engineering wise.

[srirangan]

His job is to give all the general information to public

:lolol: These people donot give out any significant pieces of information to the press/public unless ordered by higher-up's/govt. Defence deals are highly secretive matters and I don't expect anyone responsible to give out actual details to somebody who emails them.

[srirangan]

I don't think Chinese will sell the J10 to Pak. The Chinese had already refused the J10's to N.Korea and for the Chinese it's a great deal of pride to have J10 as an exclusive fighter for the PLAAF only.

The main reasons for the development of FC-1/JF-17 was export. They wouldn't export the J10 so they needed to build another fighter that they are comfortable in exporting.

[corsair7772]

I think it was still pretty swell for sabre to have mailed em anyway. And the J-10 was obviously refused to N. Korea cuz of the tense situation where an arms deal would have spelt bad for the chinese. Also maybe they got wind of the credit terms the N Koreans were going to demand. Its obvious why they didnt sell there. But rest assured the J-10 is for export as well. china knows that a lot of countries leaving the US circle will be looking for arms from either Russia or China and china would be only too happy to get some hard currency. Thus a sale to pakistan is obvious. We shud have 36 J-10s split into 3 squadrons by 2010.

[SABRE]

I don't think Chinese will sell the J10 to Pak. The Chinese had already refused the J10's to N.Korea and for the Chinese it's a great deal of pride to have J10 as an exclusive fighter for the PLAAF only.

The main reasons for the development of FC-1/JF-17 was export. They wouldn't export the J10 so they needed to build another fighter that they are comfortable in exporting.

China has no interest in NK. Pakistan provides China with lot of help. China will sell Pakistan from anything to every thing. Pak China relations are not that like of Russia and India. Pakistani ppl give alot of Respect to Chinese ppl and same goes in China.
J-10 was made by China but they recieved a lot help from Pakistan (in form of F-16 detrails and its broken trunk) and besides when China will need to upgrade the J-10 with Western equipment they will have to contact Pakistan.
On the other hand any country that makes a jet sells a jet. They have to pay off their dues, this includes USA.


BTW this is from another source whom I farward my mail. He says Gripen are evaluated. They are still on top of the list. Why werent they asked for is something he will have to confirm. But the main products Pak government asked for from Sweden were AWACS. SAAB2000 are being puchased from SAAB directly. No technology transfer here of anything is on the mind of PakistanAirforce. Pakistan has empty inventory for 80 new Jets. 20 of them are going to be Mirage2000-5 which are like 90% confirmed. 60 are suppose to be Gripens, which he says now might just be asked once AWACS and SAAB2000 lands on Pakistani soil.
On concern of SriRangan he told me Director Communication has nothing to hide when something is rejected or approved by the company or the government so the email I recieved has 95% chance of being correct and even if he is hiding something that means Swedish Governmet knws abt Pakistan's interst in Gripens and r currently keeping Pakistan on hold, which means they have not rejected the jets to Pakistan at all and are making some policies for Pakistan which if PAkistan excepts than Gripen would be sold to them. But he tells me to stick with the content of the email.

[SABRE]

ISRAEL'S CONCERNS OVER PAKISTAN'S PURCHASE OF GRIPENS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=9420

Pakistan to buy Gripen fighters from Sweden

Poses threat to Israel, since state of the art Swedish multi-task aircraft could reach Israel from bases in southwestern Pakistan.
Maariv International



The Pakistani media covering Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf state visit to Scandinavia reports that he has approached the Swedish government with a request to purchase a variety of military equipment. Swedish officials declined comment.

The main item on his shopping list is 5 squadrons (60 aircraft) of JAS-39 Gripens, considered by military observers to be at least the equal of the most advanced version of the F-16, the comparable US aircraft.

The Gripen is a frontline multi-role, swing-role supersonic (Mach 1.15 at sea level, Mach 2 at high altitude) aircraft, and is considered a match for any sophisticated fourth-generation combat aircraft. Having a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system powered by Volvo RM12 engine, Gripen can attain a maximum speed of Mach 2. The aircraft has a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, which further enhances its maneuverability.

Several countries, including Hungary, South Africa and the Czech Republic, have already purchased the NATO-compatible export version, which is being marketed jointly by BAE Systems and Saab.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been holding advanced negotiations with Saab Scania, and most of the details of the $2.7 billion deal have already been worked out. A final agreement between the Pakistan government and Gripen International is likely at the end of month, as the Swedish government is expected to approve the sale.
Until now the PAF has flown primarily US made aircraft. The decision to buy European shows that Pakistan realizes it is no longer regarded by the US as a reliable regional ally, and even more importantly, no longer sees itself as such. This is worrying, since it could mean that Musharraf has decided he needs the support of Islamic militants at home more than that of the US.


Puts Israel in range

The purchase, if it goes through could alter the strategic balance between Israel and its Moslem foes. The Gripen, with its 3,000 km. range could reach Israel from bases in southwestern Pakistan. Pakistan regards Israel as an unfriendly country, and has been extremely concerned by the growing military alliance between Jerusalem and Delhi. The fact that Pakistan, a nuclear-armed Moslem state will, for the first time, have a front line state of the art aircraft capable of reaching Israel means that the IAF may be facing a new strategic challenge.


Basic performance data

Length: 14.1 m
Span: 8.4 m
Height: 4.5 m
Normal take off weight: 8500 kg in fighter configuration
Payload: 5300 kg
Fuel, internal: 3000 litres approx (my estimate based on other,
External: 3800 litres official, numbers)
Max take off weight: 14000 kg
Range: 3000 km ferry range
Max speed: M 1.15 (1400 km/h) at sea level, close to Mach 2 at altitude
Acceleration: M 0.5 to M 1.1 at low altitude in 30 s
Turn performance: 9 G sustained, G onset rate at least 6 G/s (1-9 G in 1.2 s), min -3 G,
20+ deg/s sustained, 30 deg/s instantaneous
Climb rate: <100 s from brake release to 10 km altitude
180 s approx to 14 km
Ground turn around: <10 min with a crew of six

[srirangan]

Dude. If he let off such information he'll be fired and prolly be investigated upon.

China has no interest in NK. Pakistan provides China with lot of help.

Now tell me you are kiddin'. China has no interest in NK is the great piece of BS I've heard on these forums. China proped up NK to counter Japan and balance Taiwan and give the US another headache. China has a supreme interest in NK.

Pakistan provides aid to China? Are you kiddin' me? Why will China need help from a country that's dependent on foreign aid itself?

[SABRE]

Dude. If he let off such information he'll be fired and prolly be investigated upon.

China has no interest in NK. Pakistan provides China with lot of help.

Now tell me you are kiddin'. China has no interest in NK is the great piece of BS I've heard on these forums. China proped up NK to counter Japan and balance Taiwan and give the US another headache. China has a supreme interest in NK.

Pakistan provides aid to China? Are you kiddin' me? Why will China need help from a country that's dependent on foreign aid itself?

I knw I should have wrote this in details. I also u knw that u would be the 1st one to counter Sri. Anyways:

Help doesnt mean Aid

No interst in NK means: Not the same interest China holds for Pakistan. China cant rely on NK when it comes to its defence but it can on Pakistan. Pakistan is China's open gate to the west, NK is the Gate which opens no where. China has learned alot about Western technology with what Pakistan has provided with. Its a pitty that Pakistan which has excess to Western Equipment has failed to do so like Chian and looks forward to China to learn abt it, make a similar version for it self and Pakistan.


From now lets stick with the topic. You have a habit of driving even the smallest of things into Political discussion Sri.

[srirangan]

No matter what you say, you're not ganna convince me or any rational member that the person incharge would give out intricate details on defence negotiations to some guy who ask's questions via email. Sorry.

Ohh and btw it was you who started the China needs aid from Pak topic. Since China's entry into the WTO it don't need Pak or any other country to get its products into the western markets. Your arguments aren't convincing.

[corsair7772]

oh for cryin out aloud sirri, just give the guy a pat on the back for atleast gettin us this info. I dont see you making much contributions around here anyway. :roll

Ur absolutely right about china becoming more independent from pakistan but then it has involved itself in many industrial projects which also have a strategic dimension in pakistan. Like Gwadar and Chashnup for example. No country becomes a superpower without the support of the third world. thats why it sells it arms around. To get thirld world support. Thats wat its all about. Not about the market but about strategic importance and ambitions.

[srirangan]

;)

China making invesments in Pak does not equal SABRE's claim of "China needing Pak".

Ohh yeah here more dude, me making crummy excuses and whinin' to hide the short coming's of my countries diplomacy does not constitute "contributions". I think and many will see that he's just providing an excuse so that Pak doesn't look awkward after been refused the Gripens.

It's common sense that no one will divulge military negotitions' details via the email to someone they don't even know.

I dont see you making much contributions around here anyway

That's a direct personal attack on me. Sad to see such a bigoted narrow minded moderator resorting to personal attacks. This forum deserve's better.

[corsair7772]

look whose attacking. listen kid. we all work hard here. sabres gettin us e-mails u wudnt have gotten us for a millenia. Ill only ask u 2 appreciate the effort not spit on it.

[WebMaster]

Thanks for the info Sabre. :) Good to see members going out of their way to get the info.

Get back to the topic. "why we didn't get the gripens" not china or whatever the Freaking hell some of you are trying to discuss. :mad

[SABRE]

No matter what you say, you're not ganna convince me or any rational member that the person incharge would give out intricate details on defence negotiations to some guy who ask's questions via email. Sorry.

Ohh and btw it was you who started the China needs aid from Pak topic. Since China's entry into the WTO it don't need Pak or any other country to get its products into the western markets. Your arguments aren't convincing.

Believe it or not, its up to you.

And BTW I never said "AID" I said "HELP". China need Pakistan's Help. I dont think I have to tell a well educated Computer Guy how to read and distinguish between "AID" and "HELP". & it was you who started Pakistan China in the first place here on this thread by saying "China wont sell Pakistan J-10".
(Now stick with da topic will ya, I have no desire to have a personal war with you)

[WebMaster]

Get back to the topic. "why we didn't get the gripens" not china or whatever the Freaking hell some of you are trying to discuss. :mad

:nono

One more off topic reply from anyone and he goes into temp ban for one full week (DT's week is 8 days).

[ahussains]

If we didnt get the Grips, we try to focus on Russia by having some Migs or Su or try to Invole in an halted project with Arab Funding.

If Russia is ready to sell RD 93 engine for FC 1 and also make a TANK deal we try to buy some used Planes from Ukraine and purchase parts from Russia . and in comming 5 years India will prefer US and Europe Equipments and dont go for the Russians . know they are just time passing with Russians

What u guys Say....... :help

[SABRE]

If we didnt get the Grips, we try to focus on Russia by having some Migs or Su or try to Invole in an halted project with Arab Funding.

If Russia is ready to sell RD 93 engine for FC 1 and also make a TANK deal we try to buy some used Planes from Ukraine and purchase parts from Russia . and in comming 5 years India will prefer US and Europe Equipments and dont go for the Russians . know they are just time passing with Russians

What u guys Say....... :help

Lets just leave out Indo-Russia relations shell we.

Why we dont get arms supply from Russia? Its quite simple. Cause India can effect the supply and we would be stuck like F-16s.
About Gripens you should read the thread from the begining and specialy my emails. We havent been denied Gripens cause we have not yet officialy asked for them. I just found out FS Riaz Khukhar had discussed the topic but the discussion was just 4 few mins they quickly moved on to trade and other co-oporations. I have alos confirmed that Swedish Defence Minister said in a pres confrence that he has no such request in the drawers. Perwaiz Musharaf asked for AWACs, we discussed them. He agreed to our terms and we decided to sell them. SAAB2000 are being directly sold bu SAAB to Pakistan.
The Key point is niether SAAB nor Swedish government is saying that they have denied Gripens to Pakistan.
On the other hand I have also found that Pakistan is suppose to officialy bid for Gripens this month(July 2004).

I will mail Director Communications of Gripen International as some thing new develops, till than all of us+ PAF have to wait and watch.

[srirangan]

I will mail Director Communications of Gripen International as some thing new develops, till than all of us+ PAF have to wait and watch.


:lolol

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

For the PAF Mirage's or the J10 seem to be the only realistic option. Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out? :?

[pezfez]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation

[pezfez]

so an evaluating visit turns into a buying visit for the **** media:)

**** media is really screwed up

funny, never got planes that were never asked for:)

[srirangan]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation


i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

[SABRE]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation


i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

Oh ya PAF is going to buy Mirage2000-5 sooner or later, but not as primary but secondary Front liner Jet. PAF is second airforce in the world which knows what Mirage are capabale of doing, specialy mirage 3 and 5. PAF's Upgraded versions of mirage 3 and 5 are pretty good, so good that France is also upgrading its old Mirages in similar way. They have capability to ingage with Mirage2000-5 but the Fact is Mirage2000-5 are still a better versions, so PAF is going to start buying them once they get their primary front liner. My advice would be to buy Rafale as primary jet with mirages as secondary. Both jets will give each other great support.
It must also be noted that Pakistan is one of the first country to use Mirages in a full combat and war scenario.
J-10 is not the only option. German's have lifted its ban on selling high tech arms to Pakistan, which has opened doors for EF-2000. Rafale is also on the list. But I think Pakistan ought to buy J-10 even if they get some other Jets. We have no trouble with China on Finance terms. We can get J-10 now and pay for them on account or on installments.
So I guess atleast these three Jets r going to be in PAF inventory:

1-J10
2-Mirage2000-5
3-JF-17

**** used to be a bad word for Pakistanis now it isnt. It has become rather COOL. We take the word "****" as Australians take the word "AUSI".
For ******** I dont know. If u divide it, it goes like this= Bhindi(a vegetable)+ Indian. But I hope I am wrong cause unlike some ppl I dnt believe in insulting any nation by giving them odd names. Now lets discuss the topic shell we.

[jupitor]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation


i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?
hmmmmmmmm

[lalith prasad]

you have to take into consideration the cost ef2000 costa around 75million and the rafale costs 60 million .

[jupitor]

[quote=pezfez]sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation


i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

lolz
hay man be realistic u all are talking as if u just wish it an its gonna happen for u or as if all those countries are requesting u to buy those aircraft from them.
its a pitty that we r not gonna have any fourth generation fighter for next few years may be the J-10 flys out for us and that too is not 4th generation aircraft.
so just pray that our engineers might come up with some stuff of their own
GOD bless PAKISTAN
n
PAKISTAN AIR FORCE

[SABRE]

I just dont understand. PAF hasnt asked for Gripens yet. Pakistan buying EF-2000 and Rafele is some thing members here r advicing PAF to buy not that PAF is going to buy them. Yet every 1 keeps coming back and saying no country is willing to sell Pakistan Jets.

Well atleast let Pakistan officialy ask for some thing than let it be denied and than talk abt it.

You knw it would be foolish to say that J-10 is not 4th Gen Jet. JF-17 has capability and Capacity in it to become 4th Gen and J-10 which is far superior that JF-17 does not happen to be a 4th Gen Jet. R u kiddin Jupitor.
I think all new members should read about all the JEts they want to talk about and than enter a discussion.

[Londo Molari]

lol, he expects us to believe that the swedish director replied to his personal email... and in such horrible grammar too..

Everyone knows why Pakistan didn't get Gripens. Anywhere the U.S. has influence, they have been warned to sell anything to Pakistan. We are one of the few muslim countries in the world today whose population does not greatly favor the U.S. AND at the same time have a competent and structured armed force... so obviously they want to deny us any and all advanced technologies so we stay off balance and afraid of our neighbours. If we didn't develop nuclear weapons, God knows if Pakistan would even be sovereign today.

Only France and China have enough economic and political independence, that they can ignore U.S. pressure and still sell advanced equipment to us.

I can't believe people still dream about Gripen or Eurofighter or F-16...

[srirangan]

My thoughts exactly Londo Molari.

lolz
hay man be realistic u all are talking as if u just wish it an its gonna happen for u or as if all those countries are requesting u to buy those aircraft from them.
its a pitty that we r not gonna have any fourth generation fighter for next few years may be the J-10 flys out for us and that too is not 4th generation aircraft.
so just pray that our engineers might come up with some stuff of their own
GOD bless PAKISTAN
n
PAKISTAN AIR FORCE

What?

[SABRE]

lol, he expects us to believe that the swedish director replied to his personal email... and in such horrible grammar too..

Everyone knows why Pakistan didn't get Gripens. Anywhere the U.S. has influence, they have been warned to sell anything to Pakistan. We are one of the few muslim countries in the world today with a competent and structured armed force, whose population does not greatly favor the U.S.... so obviously they want to deny us any and all advanced technologies, or our forces might grow more capable.

Only France and China have enough economic and political independence, that they can ignore U.S. pressure and still sell advanced equipment to us.

I can't believe people still dream about Gripen or Eurofighter or F-16...


As i said beilieve it or not, its up to you.
I can pass his email to any 1 who wants to c it.

& yes there is no such thing as Sewdesh Director. ITs Director Communications for Gripen.

Director Communication's job:

1) hold press conferences.
2) hold, arrange and preside presentations for coustomers.
3) give answers to Public queries.
4) provide General Info.

And how do u expect a man from a country which pronounces Griffin as Gripen to write in proper English. Even the Swedesh PM speeks in broken English. Ever herd her talkin?

(All those who want me to farward his mail to them, just leve a messege in my PM)

[WebMaster]

Here is the screen shot of email that sabre forwarded it to me.

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/ScreenShot021.jpg

Is that enough? :roll

[srirangan]

Webmaster,

(1) Do you believe that a high ranking official is allowed to divulge details of defence negotiations to somebody over the internet?

(2) That being said I can send you an email from srirangan@gripen.com. Wanna try it out?

(3) Dude stop using Internet Explorer and Hotmail.

[srirangan]

BTW did i read the reply SABRE got clearly? It says and I quote:
The Gripen discussions are not at all on the Swedish governments table

Now this person was given his/her post to answer diplomatically, what his/her reply actually meant was:
We denied it during the unofficial discussions, and hence it wasn't even "officially" discussed.

[WebMaster]

Its not matter of if I believe or not.

I am only helping to get this topic back on track instead of all of you rubbing your asses with sabre or other members of if its valid or not.

I have also emailed gripens comm director. If you don't want to believe it, you don't have to nor are you required to but don't spoil the topic with useless bickering and whining.

It is true that you can send email from any email address but there are other ways to track a message. If its from say: 164.200 (of some ISP), we know who sent it but if its from 212.75 (ping gripen.com).

Sabre claims the email is authentic, you say its not. Its words against words. Why don't you email gripen and see if you get a reply back. I have asked sabre to provide me with screenshot of originating IP of message from director of communications. That will settle some issues about sending fake emails.

If some of you still don't believe or have doubts then thats your own issue. If someone says the CROW is black and you know and you can see it that its black, one shouldn't press on saying that crow is WHITE. :idea2

:P

[srirangan]

I have asked sabre to provide me with screenshot of originating IP of message from director of communications. That will settle some issues about sending fake emails.

IP's can be faked.. lol with all the smtp and dns servers 'm running on my local pc, I can pretend to be anybody .. :-P

I'll leave this thread as is, you can't convince me, I can't convince you either. But defence negotiations are sensitive matters and no one discloses them to someone who emals them out of the blue.. :P

[WebMaster]

Thats the point. If the IP is fake, we would know. Ponder on the Crow example I used earlier. ;)

How many fake IPs do you have? :D :P

[WebMaster]

Make what you want to out of this, sabre provided the screen shot of the message:

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/emailshot.jpg


I think the crow is BLACK. ;)

As far as english is concern, you have to keep in mind that he is from Sweden and speaks swedish not english fluently.

Good luck!!!

[srirangan]

Webmaster,
I don't think you realy understand routing and dns. Let's not talk about it. ;) The email header mean nothing. zero. If you prolly start a "hacking" forum I'l be glad to post their.

How many fake IPs do you have?

It's not having fake IP's but ability to fake IP's instead. I can pretend to be from any of the 4228250625 possible IP's. They're called proxies. Let me stop this is way off topic.

Btw I stopped this stuff in 2002, that's when the Information technologies Laws Act was enacted in India .. :P

[SABRE]

Look Sri, IF u dnt want to believe it thatn dont. Ur will is you choice.

I m no computer Wiz. I dint know how to make screen shots untill today. I learned the advance options of Hotmail today. I m the guy who dint knw how to fix his PC's cookies untill couple of weeks back. N u expect me to make fake IPs and Emails. Dnt make personal attacks on me cause m not doin it either.

Now I think I have given webmaster enough proof which he has displayed. If u dont wana believe than dnt but dnt make drifts in the topic. IF u cant keep up than atleast dnt change the course of the topic and for once talk possitive.

[SABRE]

I think Webie was going to email the director communications too. At least ppl try n keep this thread alive and open till he gets his reply. Which might take few weeks. LEts all be good till than. Please

[srirangan]

SABRE i'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just saying that :

BTW did i read the reply SABRE got clearly? It says and I quote:
Quote:
The Gripen discussions are not at all on the Swedish governments table


Now this person was given his/her post to answer diplomatically, what his/her reply actually meant was:
We denied it during the unofficial discussions, and hence it wasn't even "officially" discussed.

[Soldier]

Sri, Why would Sabre want to fake IP's, just for the sake of positive things for Pakistan? Grow up man, you are wise and intelligent so let others breath. As to the truth, as always it will be known and besides you can always trust the person looking at its previous track record.
I do know that IP's can be faked but this snap shot of SAAB email looks pretty damn authentic. If you like, I can run few checks for you.

[srirangan]

Dude I did not say SABRE faked IP's. What I said was:

BTW did i read the reply SABRE got clearly? It says and I quote:
Quote:
The Gripen discussions are not at all on the Swedish governments table

Now this person was given his/her post to answer diplomatically, what his/her reply actually meant was:
We denied it during the unofficial discussions, and hence it wasn't even "officially" discussed.

[SABRE]

Dude I did not say SABRE faked IP's. What I said was:

BTW did i read the reply SABRE got clearly? It says and I quote:
Quote:
The Gripen discussions are not at all on the Swedish governments table

Now this person was given his/her post to answer diplomatically, what his/her reply actually meant was:
We denied it during the unofficial discussions, and hence it wasn't even "officially" discussed.



Good, I believe you now lets just go back to the topic with a possitive attitude.

[gf0012-aust]

According to the news today, the Swedish Airforce logistics command (FMV) has rejected Gripen C's coming of the line at Saab due to several problems with the aircraft.

A cr@p communications suite is stated as one of several problems.

Saab has gone so far as to cancel a contract with Grintek of South Africa delivering some communications equipment.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/utenriks/3967952.html

Link unfortunately only in Swedish. ;)

[mysterious]

We definitely need someone who can translate Swedish nicely. :smokingc:

[Skygrasper]

Well, we have far too many political problems for planes like Gripen or F-16, and far too many financial problems for planes like Mirage 2000-5 or Rafale, hence its virtually immpossible for us.

I suggest we make the JF-17 as good as possible, if its highly unlikely that we'll acquire something new in the future, we should make the JF-17 as good as possible, even if it means increasing the price.

[Roger Smith]

Well, we have far too many political problems for planes like Gripen or F-16, and far too many financial problems for planes like Mirage 2000-5 or Rafale, hence its virtually immpossible for us.

I suggest we make the JF-17 as good as possible, if its highly unlikely that we'll acquire something new in the future, we should make the JF-17 as good as possible, even if it means increasing the price.

Well said. I think China is the only country where Pakistan can obtain military hardware. :help

[adsH]

thats true i think PAF should calm down on acquisitions JF-17 with its data-link with AEW&C would be an effective platform. I doubt PAF requires a Cold war type High tech jets doctrine, to perform Defensive roles.

[Darkwand]

I believe the Swedish government is willing to sell the Gripen to Pakistan they haven't said that they won't they just say that we have tough laws on weapons export. They always say this it's just to keep the pacifists at bay the onluy thing that matters here is if this will hurt defence exports to India more then we gain from Pakistan, and offcource the US needs to aprove the F404 engine that's built on licence.
Getting Aircraft quickly won't be a problem the C/D model currently in production aren't needed by the Swedish airforce at the rate it's produced due to cutbacks so the Airforce would gladly extend the production run in favour of Pakistan for budget planning.

[corsair7772]

well in airwafare when defending your own airspace you can fight the attacker on some very faviurable ratios. The AEW systems and our sexsting fleet alone would counter the IAF on a 1 to 4 ratio. Tht is for each for aircraft one aircraft would be needed. And once we get our promised ECMs and datalinks and watever it could be 6 to 1.

The indians dont seem to have a problem with the chinese and french selling us anything but when ever its an american system all hell come lose. This is an acknowledged fact in policy/political analysis.

[adsH]

PAF is still waiting-for those F-16's no matter what anyone says here, it's the fact. PAF has spent Millions if not billions on developing overhaul facilities and Training courses for the F-16's, you can't just ask PAF to dump the thought of acquiring F-16 the Grips are the second-most desirable platform for PAF.

I think Sweden wants to sell its Products to PAF, and why shouldn't they others are willing to sell what ever they have, why Shouldn't Sweden sell its Products.

[gf0012-aust]

why Shouldn't Sweden sell its Products.

Sweden wouldn't sell spare parts to Australia during the Vietnam War. They are somewhat consistent.

Pakistan and India have been involved in a few "full on" battles. Hence, the reaction for new gear will be even harsher than for an existing customer.

I hazard a guess that you would see the same reaction from the Swedes if India approached them.

[adsH]

there is no doubt in my mind that the swedes are neutral. they only choose not to sell there weapons systems to a region where the sale may imbalance or upset the reagional situation. they however do have a policy to support the equipment that they sold. GF look this up please in your spare time. i think these are new rules that they made up for them selves to be more consistent with the rest of the world. i know you guys back there in Australia have had a hard time with the Europeans back stabbing you guys when you needed them the most, but things have changed. and i bet Europe is alot more civilized now.

[gf0012-aust]

there is no doubt in my mind that the swedes are neutral. they only choose not to sell there weapons systems to a region where the sale may imbalance or upset the reagional situation. they however do have a policy to support the equipment that they sold. GF look this up please in your spare time. i think these are new rules that they made up for them selves to be more consistent with the rest of the world. i know you guys back there in Australia have had a hard time with the Europeans back stabbing you guys when you needed them the most, but things have changed. and i bet Europe is alot more civilized now.

We still don't look at some countries now because of the way we were embargoed before. When we do buy their gear we make sure the logistics side of it is compensating for any political disconnect that might occur in a crisis. - and they don't provide support if their weapons are used in an active conflict.

They are quite consistent - It's why we are unlikely to ever look at a French frontline fighter again - we mainly sent Canberra bombers to Vietnam as we knew we couldn't be short sheeted on support.

eg, apart from the fact that the Rafale does not meet out performance committments and requirements, it would have to be a he11 of a deal to get us to consider them - let alone buy them.

[SABRE]

I believe the Swedish government is willing to sell the Gripen to Pakistan they haven't said that they won't they just say that we have tough laws on weapons export. They always say this it's just to keep the pacifists at bay the onluy thing that matters here is if this will hurt defence exports to India more then we gain from Pakistan, and offcource the US needs to aprove the F404 engine that's built on licence.
Getting Aircraft quickly won't be a problem the C/D model currently in production aren't needed by the Swedish airforce at the rate it's produced due to cutbacks so the Airforce would gladly extend the production run in favour of Pakistan for budget planning.

I heard C/D modle has glitchs. Probably the reason why Sweden doesnt want it and probably the reason for PAF to backoff from the purchase.

[corsair7772]

you need links to back your arguements SABRE.

[Darkwand]

Sweden allready deliver weapons to India in 1998 India conducted 5 nuclear tests and in 1999 an order was signed with bofors for spares to the Indian Fh77 Howitzers. All that matters in this case is politics there are NO! LAWS! in Sweden concerning exports there are only guidelines for a comitte. I can't see that with such a huge industrial order as 60 Gripen fighters and support systems would be that they would really say no.
Standard procedure for the government here is to be vauge and say that the rules on weapon export are very strict and such and as soon as the order is made they will report on how much progress there is on the human rights front in country "X" and so forth. We sold RBS 15 anti-ship missiles (turned cruise missiled by the croations) in the '80s to Yugoslavia so I really don't think theres a problem with Pakistan, they would get more trouble with a very small order for say Anti-tank mines in my opinion.

I heard C/D modle has glitchs. Probably the reason why Sweden doesnt want it and probably the reason for PAF to backoff from the purchase.
Apperantly that was mostly due to problems with a South-African subcontractor, the Airforce have begun accepting fighters since those problems.

[gf0012-aust]

Sweden allready deliver weapons to India in 1998 India conducted 5 nuclear tests and in 1999 an order was signed with bofors for spares to the Indian Fh77 Howitzers. All that matters in this case is politics there are NO! LAWS! in Sweden concerning exports there are only guidelines for a comitte. I can't see that with such a huge industrial order as 60 Gripen fighters and support systems would be that they would really say no.
Standard procedure for the government here is to be vauge and say that the rules on weapon export are very strict and such and as soon as the order is made they will report on how much progress there is on the human rights front in country "X" and so forth. We sold RBS 15 anti-ship missiles (turned cruise missiled by the croations) in the '80s to Yugoslavia so I really don't think theres a problem with Pakistan, they would get more trouble with a very small order for say Anti-tank mines in my opinion.



An anti-tank mine is defensive, a jet fighter or a cruise missile is offensive. Hence one of the reasons why it is not sold to a country that might be under review. If Croatia has converted ASM's to Cruise missiles you can bet that there is no tech transfer made available to them, and that no weapons sales will happen in future without strict caveats (if they decide to sell at all)

You could bet your bottom kroner that Croatia would not have got any weapons from Sweden if they were mass murdering Albanians during the Kosovar crisis. Thats why no country (except Russia) was selling to the Serbs, and why countries were willing to sell to the Croatians. (Look at the history of events at the time)

Similarly, thats why Sweden has not supplied spare parts to offensive weapons if a country is in active conflict and it disagrees with its political policies. Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision.

[adsH]

Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision

this is abit unsettling, everyone had sanctions imposed on India after those Nuke tests how did the swedes conclude the Deal without alerting the media. this sends out a bad message, a message that should of not been promoted.

[Roger Smith]

Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision

this is abit unsettling, everyone had sanctions imposed on India after those Nuke tests how did the swedes conclude the Deal without alerting the media. this sends out a bad message, a message that should of not been promoted.

It is very unfortunate for Pakistan that each time it faces a brick wall while purchasing military hardware from the West.

[Revival_786]

The world isn't a fair place... :( They say they are good and all but hidden inside is the same old bias and fear.

[Skygrasper]

Well, defending your airspace doesn't exactly require fancy planes or anything. It requires planes that are cheap to buy and maintain, 100% operational, available, Multirole, capablity to operate in night, day, all weather. = JF-17!

[adsH]

Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision

this is abit unsettling, everyone had sanctions imposed on India after those Nuke tests how did the swedes conclude the Deal without alerting the media. this sends out a bad message, a message that should of not been promoted.

It is very unfortunate for Pakistan that each time it faces a brick wall while purchasing military hardware from the West.

its not about that !! keep pushing a desperate nation to the brink and they would bounce back. its the way the world works. Survival of the fittest its the Jungle rule. Each time they sell something to INdia and they prevent a sale to Pakistan, they in actual fact push pakistan to develop either something that actually counters the technology or does rival it in operation. Its the fact that pakistan is developing alot of its defense articles on its own mainly because almost everyone they buy there equipments of actually do hold back spares or do put sanctions on them. India does not have have an urgency to develop its military technology basically it hasn't suffered form its main suppliers from holding back at time of war. India hasn't realized that self sufficiency is more important then Buying high tech fighter AC, which won't be able to fly if Russia stopped support. Look at the UK it has one of the biggest Defense firms in the world by my count i think the 3rd largest Defense article manufacturer. What is interesting is that its not just the firm that is keen on developing technology to defend the Nation but its appart of the Governments agenda too, we have a realization that self sufficiency is vital for the survival of the UK. we have to matter in the world, and being ignored or relying on someone else at the time of need is unacceptable. WE can buy all of our equipments from the US if we ever needed too but then we would loose a certain degree of control over our defense.

[gf0012-aust]

Its the fact that pakistan is developing alot of its defense articles on its own mainly because almost everyone they buy there equipments of actually do hold back spares or do put sanctions on them.

No, I'd argue that a high degree of the reticence to sell is due to the fiasco of providing China with the F-16 for evaluation. That was a singularly risky move that will haunt Pakistans opportunity to get ToT with a lot of countries. I'm not saying that it's right or fair, but it is a fact of life. China has a bad reputation for the failure to protect patents and ignore IPO rulings (just in general commerce, let alone military technology). As such, there is minimal trust that Chinese companies will honor IP controls and they have habitually circumvented them by submitting variations on a products IP. Sometimes (in the case of tools and tooling) they are outright copies. Until the Chinese Govt addresses these failings, then mistrust will be paramount.

India does not have have an urgency to develop its military technology basically it hasn't suffered form its main suppliers from holding back at time of war.

No, not true. Both the UK and France suspended spares to India. Their main equipment supplier was Russia. The issue of whether the Russians restricted sales as a legacy of an international embargo is a moot point.

India hasn't realized that self sufficiency is more important then Buying high tech fighter AC, which won't be able to fly if Russia stopped support.

No. not entirely correct. Since the demise of the Soviet Union and especially in the last 2 years India has expanded upon its autonomous and independant development projects. Russia counted for over half of her weapons supplies prior to last year. This year Israel passed Russia in absolute dollar value for equipment purchases. France has also made inroads in traditionally Russian dominated areas such as submarines. India (like China) is reducing Russian committment, buying more hi-tech EW gear from Israel, and France. In Indias case they are also looking at US platforms like the Orion as the Il-38 is passed its effective use by date as far as platform integrity goes.

Look at the UK it has one of the biggest Defense firms in the world by my count i think the 3rd largest Defense article manufacturer. What is interesting is that its not just the firm that is keen on developing technology to defend the Nation but its appart of the Governments agenda too

Yes, and thats because all of the largest most aggressive defence technology players are owned by private industry. Govt run defence companies are inefficient and a burden on the tax payer unless there is a captive AAA client with a persistent requirement. (eg China)

[adsH]

No. not entirely correct. Since the demise of the Soviet Union and especially in the last 2 years India has expanded upon its autonomous and independant development projects. Russia counted for over half of her weapons supplies prior to last year. This year Israel passed Russia in absolute dollar value for equipment purchases. France has also made inroads in traditionally Russian dominated areas such as submarines. India (like China) is reducing Russian committment, buying more hi-tech EW gear from Israel, and France. In Indias case they are also looking at US platforms like the Orion as the Il-38 is passed its effective use by date as far as platform integrity goes.


As usuall GF your absolutely rite. but what i am trying to say here is that INdia has the Money and the man power and probably the skill to manufacture most of its Defense articles. but it seems reluctant on developing its own technology more aggresively. if it did relly on it self it may have matched China to some extent.


About the F-16 given to china.this is myth which was never proven. There are double standards here, Israel developed the Dam J-10 based on F-16 and Lavi project. Id don't see any one blocking there defense articles. Pakistan is as important as israel and should be treated as an equal to it. But i guess they all say this Shiet Happens.

[gf0012-aust]

As usuall GF your absolutely rite. but what i am trying to say here is that INdia has the Money and the man power and probably the skill to manufacture most of its Defense articles. but it seems reluctant on developing its own technology more aggresively. if it did relly on it self it may have matched China to some extent.


About the F-16 given to china.this is myth which was never proven. There are double standards here, Israel developed the Dam J-10 based on F-16 and Lavi project. Id don't see any one blocking there defense articles. Pakistan is as important as israel and should be treated as an equal to it. But i guess they all say this Shiet Happens.

adsH, part of the problem is that the F-16 issue is regularly bragged about in some areas. I've seen it on various forums and including Chinese forums where they talk about their gratitude to Pakistan for providing the plane. If it's bull, then it needs to be nipped in the bud. But, as you have seen in here, some people openly think it's ok, and some think that Pakistan should clone Erieye technology if they get it. That sets caution bells ringing for anyone who is worried about it. Admittedly its only a forum, but the issue is that is is a belief process which people accept is ok.

The world isn't a fair place and morals are situationally specific - but that doesn't change the issue that perception is truth. Some people are happier to ignore Israels development of the Lavi as they take an extended view that Israel is trying to survive against 22 members of the arab league - the david and goliath syndrome. Politics is never simple and people have their own ways of defending or justifying their stance. Thats why to try and convince anyone that they are right and you are wrong is an exercise in absolute futility. People are governed by perception and prejudice. You see that in here every day, so you shouldn't really be that shocked. :roll

[mysterious]

Absolutely correct Gary! Bingo, I'd say!! I dont think any other person could've said that any better. Ah! Its been days since I read a post 'worth' reading. :smokingc: Bravo!

[SABRE]

[quote]About the F-16 given to china.this is myth which was never proven. There are double standards here, Israel developed the Dam J-10 based on F-16 and Lavi project. Id don't see any one blocking there defense articles. Pakistan is as important as israel and should be treated as an equal to it. But i guess they all say this Shiet Happens.

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

This is in my words, but this is what the rough paper of Presler's ammendment said which blocked the F-16s to PAF in 1990.

Coming to Israel:

F-16s being sold to them at the time even though UNO reveals that Israel might have Nuclear Wapons. Israeli Nuclaer Scientist had already told the press that Isreal Has Nucks.

This is what I call Hipocracy !!!!

Pakistan is more importent than Israel adsH...We do the dirty work for USA, we r the ones who do the laundry with dirty underwares of USA. We are the one who helped them break the USSR. We are the one who are helping them in Afghanistan. We helped start the diplomatic relatons between US and China and what we get is a kick on our behinds. :(
What has Israel done for US.

[gf0012-aust]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

[umair]

Well Gary part of that talk has to do with bitterness at being dumped by the States after being(as Reagan put it) "The most allied ally".
I can vouch for the fact that China was given access to the Falcon only after we had exhausted all our efforts to get USA to lift the sanctions(which I feel were uncalled for) in 94-95.Before that China was not even allowed to see the Falcons(though they had tech reps posted in Pakistan before).As the idiom states gf you can expect a cornered person to do the desperate and that's what we did.
As far as cloning the ERIEYE is concerned, I for one see almost 0 probability of it happening.Reason being, the Chinese have already
got the requisite technology with the help of the Russians and Israelis.
Plus we are not likely to do the same thing again.

[SABRE]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

I dont know, I was searching PAF+F16 on yahoo when I came through this Artical saying that Presler's ammendment blocked F-16 sales because of the above reasons. But I didnt realy read it properlay. So I wont say that you r wrong nor I would say I am. As for the link is concerened, now who is going to look for it - atleast I am not going to.

[adsH]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

I dont know, I was searching PAF+F16 on yahoo when I came through this Artical saying that Presler's ammendment blocked F-16 sales because of the above reasons. But I didnt realy read it properlay. So I wont say that you r wrong nor I would say I am. As for the link is concerened, now who is going to look for it - atleast I am not going to.

sAbre its all muddled up together basically its because of the Nukes. apperntly "air quotes" the chinese gave Pakistan access to there delivery system in exchange for the F-16. this is all very speculative. the F-16 block 15 does not have anything that significant that the Chinese would want copy. they may have war gamed with pakistani pilots(F-16) to check the quality and compare the ability of there platforms against the F-16. I doubt the chinese were ever given one of the most precious Pakistani front-line defense equipment.

Pressler ammendment was mainly doctored to restrict F-16 deliveries to PAF, so Paf would not be able to deploy the Nukes they had developed. But I guess the US underestimated the Abilities of Pakistan. Pakistan developed sophisticated BM technology and they even developed the Ability to overhaul and upgrade there F-16 fleet.

[gf0012-aust]

As far as cloning the ERIEYE is concerned, I for one see almost 0 probability of it happening.Reason being, the Chinese have already got the requisite technology with the help of the Russians and Israelis.

Umair, thanks for that. I guess I'd question the fact of China having comparable capability seeing that they were making considerable effort to get Phalcon - they just don't have a platform with the interrogation range and concurrency depth. Israel set very specific conditions on construction of Indias Phalcon equipped aircraft in Russia as they indicated that it was a far more capable system than on the "Mays"

Generally, as a rule of thumb, Russian AWACs have generally had between 2/3rd to 3/4's of the range and concurrency of US and some other "western" systems.

From the Australian Defence Force archives:

Fixed wing developments
The A 50 Mainstay SDRLO (Long Range Detection System) aircraft is based on a stretched Ilyushin IL-76 Transport in widespread service with Soviet Forces combined with an upgraded "Flat Jack" radar system. Developed to replace the TU-126 Moss (a variant of the Bear bomber), the Mainstay first flew in 1980 with about 40 produced by 1992. The Mainstay is not as sophisticated as its western counterpart, the E-3 Sentry, but provides Russian Fighter Regiments with an airborne control capability over both land and water. Mainstays have been used by the Russian Air Force at bases in the Kola Peninsula and for observing Allied air operations during the 1991 Gulf War from bases in what is now Ukraine. In 1994 NATO proposed making the E-3 Sentry and the Beriev Mainstay interoperable to enable Russia to provide AEW&C support to future United Nations or coalition operations.


Rotor developments
Also referred to as the Kamov KA-29 RLD (Radio Lokacionnowo Dozora), the Ka-31 Helix AEW is a development of the Ka-29 Helix ASW and naval transport helicopter in service with the Russian and other former Soviet Navies. The Ka-31 is fitted with the E-801 Oko (Eye) AEW system which features a 6 metre by 1 metre planar array mounted beneath the fuselage which extends in flight to allow 360 degree mechanical scanning of the radar once every ten seconds. To date two Ka-29s have been converted to Ka-31 standard to act as prototypes for a new shipborne AEW helicopter. The two prototypes have undergone operational trials at sea on the Russian carrier "Admiral Kutznyetsov" prior to the aircraft making its debut at the Mosaero Airshow in 1995. Despite interest from the Russian Navy and those of several other nations a lack of funding has effectively suspended the development of this aircraft, as well as its conventional naval AEW counterparts, the AN-71 Madcap and YAK-44.

China has also been negotiating with GEC Marconi to try and develop a long range AEW solution from existing product. Marconis solution are considered to be generally less sophisticated than the Phalcon - so I do doubt that China has made any significant steps in the last 6 months.

[VICTORA1]

Sabre,
It is late 80's and Benazir brags one day,'others have bought stuff on credit before us but we are going to pay cash for it---up front'. Big deal. Pakistanis want to play in the big boys league now---well the rules are a little different over here.

If the pakistanis didnot believe that the sanctions would come---it is themselves that they have to blame----and they didnot have any strategy to fall back upon. Strategist in the U S say that pakistan should have made the contract with General Dynamics instead of going through the government and paying the GD for the planes. Gen Dyn would have made sure the sanctions would not take effect.

Once the sanctions took effect, pakistan should have stopped payments on the account and seeked legal action----even though they made all the payments, they should have hired a law firm and filed a claim---but no. When you deal with the americans, you must speak their language. If you can buy on credit, never pay cash for it. If there is a hurdle put in your way, always seek legal action and not through pakistani attorneys for problems in the u s but through a high prifle legal firm in the u s of a----that is the way businesses deal here in the u s. Promises are fine---but legal action is better---if you get the settlement before the case goes to court---well and fine, otherwise let the legal process take care of things. Pakistani management followed through a very poor legal advice for its money----they made one mistake after another and kept blaming the u s for the F 16 debacle and still are.

[SABRE]

Sabre,
It is late 80's and Benazir brags one day,'others have bought stuff on credit before us but we are going to pay cash for it---up front'. Big deal. Pakistanis want to play in the big boys league now---well the rules are a little different over here.

If the pakistanis didnot believe that the sanctions would come---it is themselves that they have to blame----and they didnot have any strategy to fall back upon. Strategist in the U S say that pakistan should have made the contract with General Dynamics instead of going through the government and paying the GD for the planes. Gen Dyn would have made sure the sanctions would not take effect.

Once the sanctions took effect, pakistan should have stopped payments on the account and seeked legal action----even though they made all the payments, they should have hired a law firm and filed a claim---but no. When you deal with the americans, you must speak their language. If you can buy on credit, never pay cash for it. If there is a hurdle put in your way, always seek legal action and not through pakistani attorneys for problems in the u s but through a high prifle legal firm in the u s of a----that is the way businesses deal here in the u s. Promises are fine---but legal action is better---if you get the settlement before the case goes to court---well and fine, otherwise let the legal process take care of things. Pakistani management followed through a very poor legal advice for its money----they made one mistake after another and kept blaming the u s for the F 16 debacle and still are.

Benazir dint buy F-16s. General Zia-UlHaq did. Nixon had promissed high tech Jet fighters to Pakistan after 1971 war, he had to go because of thewater gate scandle, but later Reagon filled the promiss on the behalf of Nixon. Reagon gave F-16s to General Zia to fight Afghan n Soviat Air Fighters. During the Afghan war only one PAF F-16 was lost n tht was in a friendly fire.

By the way F-16s came out of now where. We were askin for them but suddenly one fine day Reagon calls n says "you want F-16s you got it" n we paid for the Jets in cash. We dint knew tht Reagon would be the last friendly President to Pakistan.

But I am tellin u one thing, as long there is republican party in USA there is a big chance of Pakistan gettin its F-16s. I just hope Israel doesnt poke its nose in.

[umair]

And what has Israel got to do with it?
Sabre seriously you dissapoint me :(

[SABRE]

And what has Israel got to do with it?
Sabre seriously you dissapoint me :(

All I am saying is that Israel can effect Pakistan's military purchases from USA. Whats so dissapointing in this. Our F-16s were blocked cause we were involved in Nuclare activity & ISrael kept on getting F-16s even after USA it self said that Israel possibly has Nuclear Wapeans. Israel has political effects on USA, Pakistan doesnt.

Other day I visited this Israeli site when I was browsing through Yahoo for any thing new on Gripens. The sites artical head line said "PAKISATAN TO BUY STATE OF THE ART JETS JAS39-GRIPEN FOR SWEDEN, POSES THREAT TO ISRAEL" Now how can Gripen fly from Pakistan to Israel, attcak them and come back. What a joke.
All m saying is Israel sees Pakistan as its enemy, even though Pakistan has not taken any aggressive actions against Israel.

Besides, what are we talkin about; Politics, F-16s, Isreal or "WHY PAF DINT GET GRIPENS"

[SABRE]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

I dont know, I was searching PAF+F16 on yahoo when I came through this Artical saying that Presler's ammendment blocked F-16 sales because of the above reasons. But I didnt realy read it properlay. So I wont say that you r wrong nor I would say I am. As for the link is concerened, now who is going to look for it - atleast I am not going to.

sAbre its all muddled up together basically its because of the Nukes. apperntly "air quotes" the chinese gave Pakistan access to there delivery system in exchange for the F-16. this is all very speculative. the F-16 block 15 does not have anything that significant that the Chinese would want copy. they may have war gamed with pakistani pilots(F-16) to check the quality and compare the ability of there platforms against the F-16. I doubt the chinese were ever given one of the most precious Pakistani front-line defense equipment.

Pressler ammendment was mainly doctored to restrict F-16 deliveries to PAF, so Paf would not be able to deploy the Nukes they had developed. But I guess the US underestimated the Abilities of Pakistan. Pakistan developed sophisticated BM technology and they even developed the Ability to overhaul and upgrade there F-16 fleet.

Well if PAF Pilots may have war gamed against that of Chinese jets I dnt think it might have been a big secret. Whats to hide there, countries do it all the time.