How to Strengthen PNs Surface Fleet

[Oqaab]

Currently, Pakistan Navy is operating 8 frigates. Out of which 6 are Amazon Type-21 Frigates and 2 are Leander Class frigates. The Amazons are the most capable ships of Pakistan Navy's surface fleet and according to some of our members; these ships were upgraded some years back. These ships are armed with subsonic Harpoon missiles (Ranges from 95 to 280 km).

PN is also operating 3 Gearing class destroyers, inducted in the early 80s. These ships are also armed with Harpoon Anti-Ship missiles (Range = 130 km). These destroyers are supported by the Alloutte III choppers.

Missile boats fleet includes 4 Sabqat (Huangfeng) boats, 4 Jalalat FACs, 2 Shanghai II FACs, 1 Hoku Missile boat, 1 Town class patrol craft and 1 Larkana patrol craft. Some reports (in 2002) claimed that 2 Missile boats will be ready by december 2002. So, this makes a total of 15 Missile boats defending the coasts.

The future program is to induct 4 F-22P (upgraded Jaingwei II) frigates. These frigates will be armed with subsonic YJ-82 or C-802 anti-ship missiles which has a range of 120 kms. These F-22P warships will be the backbone of PNs surface fleet in future. Pakistan will also get the technology of its hull.

On the other hand, Indian Navy has 24 warships (acc to PIADS). They are also operating P-17 stealth ship and they will be getting 3 talwar stealth ships in near future. A total of 15 stealth warships will join Indian Navy. Their Frigates are armed with supersonic Klub anti-ship/submarine cruise missiles.

In order to make PNs surface fleet capable enough to counter bigger threats(like IN), the following steps should be taken.

1. Purchase of Supersonic missiles. YJ-83 (or C-803) supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles are a good option. These missiles may not have that speed and range as Klub and Brahmos has, but if Pakistan is purchasing weapons on a policy of minimum capable deterrence, then these missiles should be purchased.

2. Strengthen the Air arm. It is the only way to gain Superiority over enemy. PN ships will not be entering enemy's sea before the air attacks by its planes. The upgraded mirages will be joined by JF-17 after 2011 and these aircrafts will carry AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles (range = 50 km). Some of our destroyers are supported by Alloutte III choppers and should be replaced by Chinese Z-9C (or French Dauphin-II) choppers.

3. AWACS support for navy. Pakistan will be purchasing 7 Erieye AWACS Radars in near future. These AWACS will surely help a lot in identifying the ships so that PN could plan a defensive strategy to counter aggressors.

4. All the ships operational, well-maintained and battle-ready. All weapons made available. The PN dockyard should practice the process of rebuilding a ship as quickly as possible, in a wartime.

These were some of the objectives over which PN should concentrate, to counter the INs battleships. But this may not give a quicker end to the war.

[Pathfinder-X]

Well the main objective of PN is to counter the Indian navy in case of conflict, but since the surface fleet cannot match India's PN should consider buying more advance SSK. More Agosta is needed as India is receiving several new Kilos and might have SSN in the near future(Although it might take some time to train its crew fully)

[tatra]

Indian Navy has 24 warships (acc to PIADS).

current IN inventory of major vessels:

carrier
1 viraat (centaur class)

destroyers
5 rajput (kashin class)
3 delhi (P15)

frigates
3 talwar (project 1135.6)
3 godavari (P16)
2 brahmaputra (P16A)

corvettes
4 Kora P25A
4 Kukri P25

submarines
2 Foxtrot
10 Kilo
4 HDW 209

They are also operating P-17 stealth ship and they will be getting 3 talwar stealth ships in near future.
No, they are already operating 3 talwar class ships and are currently building P17. Second of class P17 was recently launched. None have been commissioned.

A total of 15 stealth warships will join Indian Navy.

Building or projected:

Carriers
1 Air Defense Ship
1 ex-Gorshkov

destroyers
3 P15A

frigates
1 more Brahmaputra P16A
3 P17 (possibly more, up to 12)

corvettes
4-6 P28
submarines
up to 5 Advanced technology vessel (SSN)
up to 24 Project 75 (SSK)

Their Frigates are armed with supersonic Klub anti-ship/submarine cruise missiles.
At present only the three ships of the Talwar class and one Kilo class SSK have the supersonic Club missile. Remainder of Kilo's will receive Club during midlife refit. P17 and P15A will likely receive Brahmos, 8 and 16 missiles respectively. P15 and P16A and P25A have 4x4 Uran missile. P16 and P25 and Rajput classes have 4x1 Styx missile.

agree with Pathfinder X. PN should replace current 8 ex-RN ships with new F22P and get more Agosta's. The Gearings have already been stripped of missiles and CIWS and relegated to Coast Guard duty.

[mysterious]

Can we 'for ONCE' keep Indian stuff out of a pure Pakistan related discussion thread? Its about PN as far as I see. But someone had to just put IN statistics in to boast around. Feeling better after posting that tatra?

[Oqaab]

Ok, let me first remind. The topic is "How to Strengthen PNs surface fleet".

Pathfinder,

Agosta90B are very capable but we are discussing here that what steps should be taken to strengthen the surface fleet, i.e Frigates, Destroyers, Corvettes , FACs etc.

If we dont have a strong surface fleet, then we cant have strong submarine fleet.

tatra,

First of all, thanx for the clarification.

Secondly, PN has 6 Amazon type-21 frigates which are the backbone of PN and couldnt be replaced. We need more destroyers, like type-054.

[P.A.F]

well if u ask me then we need air defence quick time or otherwise we will just get pounded with bombs from MIG-29's. we need a aircraft carrier but i can't see that comeing very soon because it's completely out of our budget. secondly we need destroyers and subs fast. hopefully when gwadar is made we will be in a better possision. :)

[gf0012-aust]

Myst, to be fair to Tatra, if you are going to look at what the PN needs to do to make it more robust, then you need to assess it against what it perceives to be its principle threat. ORBAT to ORBAT.

If you look at IN capability, then the priority for me would be to invest in more SSK's and a substantial array grid.

The PN needs vessels on a long leash and that are relatively immune and autonomous. Subs are the principle capital ship of choice against larger sophisticated vessels.

[gf0012-aust]

well if u ask me then we need air defence quick time or otherwise we will just get pounded with bombs from MIG-29's. we need a aircraft carrier but i can't see that comeing very soon because it's completely out of our budget. secondly we need destroyers and subs fast. hopefully when gwadar is made we will be in a better possision. :)

Technically I'd say no to a carrier.

To be effective you need a minimujm of 2 and preferably 3 to allow for maint rotation. One carrier in maint service will be out of circulation for at least 9-12 months. If you only had one, then the OPFOR will just attack you when it's in maint.

Carriers are incredibly expensive and the strike force even more so as it involves:

Naval aviation training - which is more demanding than ordinary flying. Try to get an airforce pilot to land a 50 tonne jet on a deck fore and aft pitching 30 degrees - you'll end up with broken aircraft.

Selection of different aircraft than your land based fleet. Look at current CTOL aircraft - none of which are cheap - and all of which are considerably more expensive than land based aircraft. VSTOLs are even worse - less options to pick from and less capability in a number of areas (unless you can get access to the JSF-B, which is unlikely)

Fleet support: The strike group that needs to support the carrier will typically involve 2 x ASW and 1 x AWD, plus AOR, plus any other available and approp surface vessels. In western strike groups the CSF is also accompanied by subs to act as hunter killers for OPFOR subs. Conventional subs cannot maintain a decent cover speed for a strike group at speed. That means nukes are needed. The nuke will cost as much as the carrier. Every skimmer attached to the CSF is one less vessel running loose for other duties, The PN cannot afford to reduce its skimmer flexibility as it's already light on vessels.

Logistics - add up all the above + 1500 crew for a CV x whatever number of CV's in your fleet

There are a raft of other factors which I haven't included but make it very unattractive for a navy like pakistans to travel that route. Hopefully you get the general idea though.

On the whole - not a good way to spend your money

[P.A.F]

nice advice but i am tring to put across the need for AIR DEFENCE. that is the key for the pakistani navy to make india think twice. otherwise like i said we will just get smashed in half from there subs and destroyers with the backup of aircraft. i think that when the JF-17's come in then the current mirages should be upgraded and used for the navy instead of being retired. they are excellent aircraft for a navy role.

[corsair7772]

Not really. Did you know that PAF pilots on mirages were assigned to suicide duty as the Mirage does not have the required range to attack IN ships at a useful range. So it was a one way trip for them. Who said we dont have pure souls around anymore?

[tatra]

Feeling better after posting that tatra?

As a matter of fact, I do. My post had nothing to do with any preference with one or the other navy. It does have to do with accuracy of information provided. You can't have a good discussion if you don't have the basic facts straight.

Oqaab: The chinese 054 is a frigate. The Amazon's will keep going for a while but need replacement eventually. PN could use something along the lines of the US designed International Frigate. Alternatively, the 054A (054 with VL version of SA-N-7 and 2 Type 730 CIWS), perhaps modified to carry some additional light SAM's. Some 6 of either ship would make a credible surface force.

http://www.jjma.com/Documents/Services/ShipDesign/intnat/ff21c.jpg
http://www.jjma.com/Documents/Services/ShipDesign/intnat/ff21.htm

[Aussie Digger]

If PN urgently needed more surface ships, British Type 22 Frigates are available for sale. Britain is retiring these very capable ships due to funding problems, not due to any problem with the ship itself. These ships are well armed with the 114mm (4.5 inch) MK 8 gun, Goalkeeper close-in weapons system (CIWS), Sea Wolf anti-missile system, 2 x Quad Harpoon missile launchers, 2 x 20mm Close range guns, 2x 433mm triple torpedo launchers and the NATO Seagnat Decoy Launchers.

They can also embark a helicopter for anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare and utility missions (the British use the Lynx helo). Britain is currently trying to sell 5 of these ships. Introduction of this class, would be a quick and highly capable upgrade to the PN's capabilities. Here's a pic.

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/data/gallery/full/1087384041f.jpg

[gf0012-aust]

nice advice but i am tring to put across the need for AIR DEFENCE.

my comment was couched around your response:

we need a aircraft carrier

Pakistan can't afford a carrier with its requisite air wings.

You could buy 6 subs for the price of a carrier and 2 air wings. Another 3 subs could be purchased for the price of the CSF support assets.

9 subs will do a hell of a lot more damage to a free ranging fleet than fighters or bombers that are land based. A carrier air wing is only notionally more flexible.

1 sub kept the Argentinian carrier from sortying out to engage the RN (especially after 1 x RN sub sunk their largest capital vessel)

2 Collins Class subs kept the Indonesian navy "honest" during East Timor.

The amount of effort that an airforce will have to expend to take out an OPFOR carrier strike force (and it's attendant subs) would leave the defence cupboard pretty bare. Especially when there is no AAR and a limited loiter time.

Air assets in Pakistan can be tracked immediately from India from IL-76's running race track searches. Subs OTOH require a substantial effort to hunt and kill, they make all admirals sphincter muscles pucker up at night.

;)

Air is not the be all and end all of wars - since 1967, in 1989, 1991, 1999, 2001-2 it's been demonstrated clearly that combined arms decides outcomes.

AWACs/AEW is the king of aviation capital ships, generally, subs still have the economical and tactical advantages in their favour as well.

[yasin_khan]

I think Pakistan have to induct more Agusta-90B submarines upto 6.
They are getting F22 from China,some one above said four ,i think make it double.
Pakistan Navy have to induct some air crafts to counter mig-29s and cover the fleet.JF-17 will do great job with C 802 anit ship missile.JH-7A should also be a good choice.

[tatra]

@Aussie DIgger: Is the UK selling batch 3 Type 22's already?!?! I knew they were passing off the Batch 1 annd 2, e.g. to Brazil and Chili and Rumania, but thought the Batch 3's were still in RN use.

[Aussie Digger]

When researching that post, I went to the UK MOD website. Apparently all the Type 22's (even Batch 3) are being removed from service under SDR due to funding (or a lack thereof) requirements... Only Type 23's and the new destroyers will comprise the major British surface fleet units, beside carriers and support ships of course...

[Oqaab]

I think Pakistan have to induct more Agusta-90B submarines upto 6.

The discussion is about Surface fleet, not the submarines.


Pakistan Navy have to induct some air crafts to counter mig-29s and cover the fleet.JF-17 will do great job with C 802 anit ship missile.JH-7A should also be a good choice.

The naval version of JF-17 may come after 2011. As mentioned in the first post, the JF-17 will be armed with AM-39 Exocet missiles.

[tatra]

Apparently all the Type 22's (even Batch 3) are being removed from service under SDR due to funding (or a lack thereof) requirements...

In that case, my message to PN is to get those Batch 3 ships. As far as pre-owned ships are concerned, it doesn't get any better! VL SAM, CIWS, DP Gun, ASW torpedos, heli .... better than F22P even, which could still be built as force multipliers.

[amber]

Asslam u Alkium

well i jus wanna say i dono why ya guys think that we shud have at least one carrier. as far as i know we dont have such a big navy that we accure carrier. den we dont have planes and other stuff tu keep such thgs on air craft carrier. and next is this the location or da atmoshpre doesnt suit. as we look at indian carrier. its almost on end. khair rest of the thgs i hope ya guys ya. i can even give ya sum facts and figure too if ya want me, that we dont need to have carrier. we shud put our attention or other matters, like plane, helis, traning and etc, well thatz it i guess, i hope i didnt say any thg bad abt ya guys
keep the faith
peace
take care and gud luck
Allah Hafiz we Go there Where death fears to go :)

[tatra]

Apparently all the Type 22's (even Batch 3) are being removed from service under SDR due to funding (or a lack thereof) requirements...

In that case, my message to PN is to get those Batch 3 ships. As far as pre-owned ships are concerned, it doesn't get any better! VL SAM, CIWS, DP Gun, ASW torpedos, heli .... better than F22P even, which could still be built as force multipliers.

Oops, sorry, no VL SAM ... but still, 2x 6-round launcher with Sea Wolf backed by 4.5" gun and 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS is pretty decent AA. And also, thse ship are equipped to perform command roles!

[pezfez]

i say no surface fleet, all agosto 90bs, that'd be cool

since that's not realistic, i say we should get the Al-something stealth corvette from the UAE, need french approval, we don't have a huge coastline and we should go for a smaller, leaner and meaner navy. so have stealth corvettes and missile boats

those f22ps look stealthy and should be pretty good once pak upgrades them with western tech, we should stick to the current 4, no more, focus more on research and development of our own ships/boats

and whoeve mentioned the a/c carrier, our whole defense budget would go to keep the carrier floating :)

[Hellscream]

some guys here are talking about getting more SSKs only but what is
needed is a better surface fleet.
Admiral Gorshkov's doctrine stated that surface elements should be used to support the submarine arm ..used as a distraction i guess
the Agosta-90Bs will face all the ASW assets the IN can throw at them.

[gf0012-aust]

some guys here are talking about getting more SSKs only but what is
needed is a better surface fleet.
Admiral Gorshkov's doctrine stated that surface elements should be used to support the submarine arm ..used as a distraction i guess
the Agosta-90Bs will face all the ASW assets the IN can throw at them.

Nope, I disagree a bit. The solution against a conventional sub force is as follows:

- SSN(K)'s nukes have the endurance to pace and trace a conventional - even with AIP they have to surface at some time - and when they do the nuke will tag them

- SSK same as above. use a thief to catch a thief. The best hunter killer of a sub is another sub, as they think like a sub driver and are likely to be able to anticipate what they will do

- A committed ASW aviation element running race tracks to keep the sub underwater as long as possible

- An effective ASW skimmer group.

- Sink all the replenishment vessels in the sphere of probable operation range from the subs last known contact point.

Integrate all of the above into a synchronised HK package.

[Aussie Digger]

I still reckon buy those Type 23 Frigates off Britain. You get World class ships very quickly (they could be transferred within months) at (probably) a fairly reasonable rate...

[gf0012-aust]

I still reckon buy those Type 23 Frigates off Britain. You get World class ships very quickly (they could be transferred within months) at (probably) a fairly reasonable rate...

I agree, an effective skimmer capability is essential for strike force support, convoy escort duties etc. It's all part of an essential structure for an integrated response.

[adsH]

SSN(K)'s nukes have the endurance to pace and trace a conventional - even with AIP they have to surface at some time - and when they do the nuke will tag them


Conflicts in the Indian Subcontinent don't tend to be Longer then the AIP Endurance underwater.

[gf0012-aust]

SSN(K)'s nukes have the endurance to pace and trace a conventional - even with AIP they have to surface at some time - and when they do the nuke will tag them


Conflicts in the Indian Subcontinent don't tend to be Longer then the AIP Endurance underwater.

I've never seen any wargame proposals between India and Pakistan that didn't include a war of attrition.

You plan for all seasons - not just "summer".

It's also why ASW is an integrated symbiotic solution. Different responses within the capability matrix will slip in and out of relevance