what should be added in Pak Army?

[yasin_khan]

What should be added in Pakistan Army?

[yasin_khan]

Pakistan army
Active: 620,000
Reserves: 513,000

Army (550,000)
9 Corps HQ, 2 Armored Divisions, 19 Infantry Divisions with 1 area Command Division, 9 Corps Artillery Brigades, 26 Independent Brigades (7 Armored, 1 Mechanized, 6 Infantry, 5 Artillery, 7 Engineering) 3 Armored Reconnaissance Regiments, 3 SF Battalions, 1 Advanced Deployment Command


Paramilitary (294,000)
National Guard: 185,000
Frontier Corps: 65,000
Pakistan Rangers: 25,000 - 30,000
Northern Light Infantry: 12,000; 3 Battalions
Maritime Security Agency: 2000

Strategic Force
On May 28, 1998 Pakistan announced that it had successfully conducted five nuclear tests. The Pakistani Atomic Energy Commission reported that the five nuclear tests conducted on May 28 generated a seismic signal of 5.0 on the Richter scale, with a total yield of up to 40 KT (equivalent TNT).

[P.A.F]

well if you ask me. pakistan should get more al-khalids and better surface to surface and anti tank missiles. but on the other hand thats just extra coz pakistani army is good as it is. o and by the way one more thing. they should het more attack helicopters for definate.

[yasin_khan]

Main equipments of Pak army.
Tanks 2315+(local production, more expected)
APCs 1050+(local production, more expected)
Artillery Towed 1470
Artillery self propelled 240
MRLs 45+(local production, more expected)
Mortars 725
SSM Launchers 122
AA Guns 2000+(local production, more expected)
Surface to Surface Ballistics Missiles 100+(local production, more expected)
Anti Tank Guided Weapons 820+(local production, more expected)
Attack Helicopter AH1 Cobra 20
Transport Helicopter
Mi8\17 18
Sa 330 Puma 25
Bell 206b 10
Bell 205 6

[P.A.F]

more attack helicopters would be a good idea.

[yasin_khan]

P.A.F
i think some more anti tank weapons will do best with the current one with army.

[P.A.F]

true but i think that attack helicopters r more needed because they can help in the air or be tank busters. 2 in 1. :D:

[yasin_khan]

Army should buythe new and latest attack helis like ROOIVALK ATTACK HELICOPTER of SOUTH AFRICA, A129 INTERNATIONAL MULTI-ROLE COMBAT HELICOPTER of ITALY, KA-50 BLACK SHARK ATTACK HELICOPTER of RUSSIA

[P.A.F]

if we can get our hands on apaches then that would be even better. the army inducted a few russian hinds a few months back.

[corsair7772]

Hinds? Ka-50s? god almighty as if the russo-pak relations are palmy. :roll

By 2010 well have 72 AH-1s. 60 have been ordered and its possible that another squadron will be put together from remaining Cobras. And PAF the army did not induct any Mi-24s. The ones we did are Mi-17 and you cant expect us to get more than that from the russians. :(

The rooivalks are a great choice. But since there the equivalent of the Ah-64 its possible that they cost the same as it. And anyway the south africans and indians are very close so the sale might be blocked. :cry

And Yasin, i dont think you should rely on pakistani defence.com for all you info. Its basically a lot of propoganda. We dont locally produce every armoured vehicle in our arsenal. We assemble most. Theres a difference and its hard to belive we make a system as complex as a MLRS. I thought this link of some chinese MLRS might interest you as the PA is possible to induct them. :)

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/artillery/mlrs/mlrs.asp

And lastly the army would do better to shift from a division structure to a Brigade one. That is it should convert its divisions to brigades in order to speed up the battle tempo and to ease handling. :smokingc:

[P.A.F]

whats this then?
http://www.pakistaniaviation.com/photoarmyaviationbasequetta13.htm

[P.A.F]

look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.pakaviation.com/PVA/Library/AirPhotos/Military/PakAR_Helicopters/

[P.A.F]

i don't know if we go them from russia but they are sure Mi-24 hinds. ;)

[Oqaab]

India will be making 1000 T-90S tanks. Pakistan Army needs more then 500 T-84 tanks in order to maintain balance.

[pezfez]

seeing that we're getting more cobras, i think pak needs more mlrs and spa, and the chinese r pretty good at making those (ws-1b and some spz-2000?) i also heard about the joint-production of a spa betw china and pak, ne one know about it?

[manna]

HI guys, nice discussion , but my dear friend u all are restricting ur thought to conventional arms, mind u that things ar e pretty different now , as both have goone nrclear, and developing and inducting missiles technology in their forces, this demands some more and extra ordinary step and weopanry/equpiment to maint the armed forces under those hard and rough battle fields, the conventional weaponary has to be in magnamity these fast changing environtments,
so wat i think is pakistan should have develope some good missile defence system, then should equip and train her army to operate in NBc environments and then should develope some good comd and control systm down to it lowest possible units to be able to deliver effectively in those fast changing environments of the modren fields,
AM i right or , not, thx for bearing me , :)

[manna]

gys corrction , for word magnamity, for it kindly read , MAGNANIMITY
pardon me for this oversight, thx :roll

[brahmos]

seeing that we're getting more cobras, i think pak needs more mlrs and spa, and the chinese r pretty good at making those (ws-1b and some spz-2000?) i also heard about the joint-production of a spa betw china and pak, ne one know about it?

How many cobras is paks getting. I never heard about this.

[Airplane]

seeing that we're getting more cobras, i think pak needs more mlrs and spa, and the chinese r pretty good at making those (ws-1b and some spz-2000?) i also heard about the joint-production of a spa betw china and pak, ne one know about it?

How many cobras is paks getting. I never heard about this.


pak is getting 40 cobras 40 hueys and 40 other transportation helis

[mysterious]

Forget the heavy stuff such as tanks and support heli-gunships cuz they are already in focus of Pakistan Army officials. I feel that our artillery department is being severly neglected cuz we 'seriously' need MORE and ADVANCED artillery pieces. I would like to see some hardcore Howitzers coming in as well as some nice MRLS and in good quantities. :cop

[corsair7772]

Ive only heard of 60 Ah-1s. Could u give a link for the rest?

Oh and thanks for the Mi-24 pix, PAF. Sure will come handy. They mustve been left over by iranian forces during the Balcoch insurgecny or maybe during the Afghan War. Otherwise we couldve bought em from poland or ukraine. Ill try gettin a link on this.

[pezfez]

i think the 60 cobras r the total number we're going to have after the 40 r delivered, so the current 20 plus 40 more = 60 cobras

does ne one know which version?

[P.A.F]

can anyone tell me where the Mi-24 hind in the pak army came from. any article. :?

[yasin_khan]

PAF
the post u have given is totally nonsence. i dont think we have these birds in pak army> :? :cry

[yasin_khan]

mysterious u r right arteillery is totally neglected and i think the last western pusrchase was in 80's from USA.

[P.A.F]

Yasin.
look on the previous page. they r Mi-24 hinds. i've even given u 2 links. but what i wanna know is that were the hell they came from :?

[yasin_khan]

PAf in another site i have read that Pakistan has ah-64 Apachese but there r no apachese in pak army's inventry.

[yasin_khan]

www.combataircraft.com

[P.A.F]

o yaar. haven't you seen the pictures with your own eye's. they can't be graphics. it the bloody pakistani aviation web site and surely that can't be wrong. :)

[P.A.F]

if you look carefully it doesn't say that pakistan has got apaches. go to the helicopter section then click on the apache and right at the bottome it shows you the countries who have em and pakistan ain't writen on it.

[yasin_khan]

ok froget about the site.just stick to the topic

[P.A.F]

good idea. but if someone knows where we got this mi-24 from please say so ;)

[yasin_khan]

what about the chineese humvee?DongFeng EQ2050 4X4 High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV)

should this be added?

[P.A.F]

i personally think that we should get more cobra's because we already know em inside out. anaches and that italian or south african attack helicoptors don't look bad either.

[yasin_khan]

PAF u r right that cobras are good for pak army but the italians are also good one
;)

[yasin_khan]

I think to counter Indian army following things should be added.
1. Al-Khalid tank at least 1000.
2. More T-80 tanks upto 500.
3. Mi-17 Hip upto 20.
4. AH-1 Cobra upto 40.
5. New Self Proplled Artillery guns up to 250.
6. Lots of good trainings for individuals.

[Airplane]

The hind you guy are talking about are from the soviet-afghan war. I heard that 2 hinds were given to pakistan, 2 to america, And to more the afghani people

[mysterious]

I'd say Self-Propelled numbers up to 350 at least and a good amount of advanced MRLs. New AA guns as well if need be. More APCs are obviously needed. Tanks, are coming through cuz of indigenous production and so I wouldn't be too concerned about them. Support Helis and aircraft, if we can get some more advanced ones to enhance the army's mobility, then yeah; let 'em come in. :smokingc:

[Salman78]

Addition of these weapons would dramatically improve Pakistan Army's lethality.These are practical, useful and cost effective weapons...

Crotale NG short-medium range SAM
Aster 15 Short-medium range SAM
Rooivalk, A129 or AH-1W/Z Attack Helicopters
EH101 Merlin Transport Helicopters
Trigat LR anti-tank missile
Eyrx manportable short range anti-tank missile
Predator UAV ( or somthing in this class)
New jam proof & secure radio communication
Artillary locating and fire correction radars

[lalith prasad]

i dont think you will be getting rooivalk unless some rogue designer sells you the design like they did for the kentron darter missiles because after pak acquired the darter missiles india and sa signed a millitary cooperation agreement according to which sa has assured india that it will not supply any weapons or weapons systems to pakistan .india is planning to acquire about 3000 peices of 155mm artilerry estimated value of the deal is 2+billion dollars last heard denel gun was the frontrunner.final trials are to be held this september.so 250 guns are not enough you got to acquire more.

[mysterious]

Dont forget, we're not competing with India in an arms race. We're just trying to keep our minimum deterrance level.

[Aussie Digger]

The single biggest addition to firepower available for a land force these days in my view is an MLRS type system. I've spoken to a number of US Army Gunners about MLRS and it is simply awesome. No other single Artillery piece else can match it's firepower (ie: it's ability to annihilate an ENTIRE grid square from a full battery fire mission), nothing can match it's counter battery fire mission and it's mobility etc is outstanding, plus it has an integral, long range surface to surface missile system with about a 300klm range (ATACMS) . If you urgently need more firepower, than nothing else will match up with this as far as I can see...

[Salman78]

Pakistan should explore the chineese WS-1B MLRS.

The WS-1B rocket with a new high performance rocket motor and warhead, reaches a maximum speed of Mach 5 and maximum flight altitude of 60km, giving a minimum firing range of 80km and a maximum firing range of 180km. The probability deviation is between 1% and 1.5%. The WS-1B rocket is longer than the WS-1, with length 6.182m but the same diameter. The take-off weight is 708kg with a 150kg warhead.

CPMIEC is developing a successor to the WS-1B, the WS-2, which will have a range extended to 350km and be armed with more accurate, guided rockets.

Detailed info about the system can be acquired here

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ws1b/index.html


It would be cheaper & more reliable then its american counter part.

[yasin_khan]

Predator UAV ( or somthing in this class)

It is very dificult to get it brother.

[yasin_khan]

with the current inventries we r in better position then Indians.

[yasin_khan]

But we need more.

[Aussie Digger]

I have no doubt the Chinese MLRS would be cheaper, but I'm not sure about the reliability issue. US designed aircraft for example, have consistently higher availability rates than Sino-Russian aircraft. THAT's a demonstrated fact. Even the best designed bit of equipment is useless if it doesn't work. I think quality control has a lot to do with this.

[yasin_khan]

MLRS???????? :?

[mysterious]

Multiple Launched Rocket System(s)!!!

[yasin_khan]

i think aussie is right the chineese will be good and we will get it easily with TOT.

Admin: Please read the responses properly before typing your own. That is NOT what aussie said. :roll

[pezfez]

lalith, provide the article where it says sa won't do ne more deals with pak, and the darter deal was in sa newspapers and defence journals, not some rogue scientist.

ON TOPIC: we have the american m109s and m110s and we're building our own spa with china, similar to the spz2000 that kuwait chose from china (over competition from ASspa guns from uk and paladins from us), we're fine with our spa

there were reports that said we got the ws-1bs from china, those r good but we should get the ws-2 which have way more range

and we're getting 40 more cobras, so 60 cobras total (to be upgraded), we're fine in this department, but we need more utility/transport helis, we should try for the blackhawks (good or not, but they're just sexy)

and instead of spending more money on hardware, we should get ALL of our soldiers some kevlar helmets and vests, nvgs, and new stuff (we make all this stuff so shouldn't cost much money), they look like ww2 bhangis right now

p.s. does ne one know when the talha apcs r being inducted and how far is the saad ifv project?

[lalith prasad]

i cannot post the article about sa not selling dfencetechnology as it is pretty old immediately after india came to know of the sale of kentron missiles to pakistan india launched a protest with sa .their defence minister assured india that it was a rogue deal and in future no such deal will take place india and sa then signed a defence cooperation deal .the result is the bhim t-6 howitzer.by the way india has an ultimate requirement for3000+ sphs (155mm calibre tracked and wheeled).the favourites as of now are sa(other partcipants are israel with their atmos2000 and bofors) bofors are favourites for field gun .the sa are also setting up a facility at nalanda to manufacture the v-lap charges which will give these artillery guns a range of 60+kms.by the way buddy do me a favour compare information of the chinese howitzer with the bhim t-6 and then reply based on technical parameters(range,muzzle velocity,firing rate etc)which one is superior.the estimated deal foe the artillery guns for india is 2+billion dollars.

[yasin_khan]

we're getting 40 more cobras, so 60 cobras total (to be upgraded), we're fine in this department, but we need more utility/transport helis, we should try for the blackhawks (good or not, but they're just sexy)

its good news but only 40.i think some other attack helicopter should also be inducted.For transport we r getting 13 Mil Mi 17 hip transport helis.and i think they are very much good for transport.

[yasin_khan]

instead of spending more money on hardware, we should get ALL of our soldiers some kevlar helmets and vests, nvgs, and new stuff (we make all this stuff so shouldn't cost much money), they look like ww2 bhangis right now

If we provide the above mentioned things what will they do?
Pakistani soldiers havnt got these things but they patroit they can do much with out these things.and what do u call them WW2 bhangis(sweeper) u should mind your language,only few countries individuals got these things.In Iraq and Afghanistan collation forces got every thing but still the Iraqis and Afghanis are killing them in gurilla attacks. :mad

[mysterious]

Yasin Khan, your post is only corrent to a certain extent. A better equiped soldier is a lot more effective than a brave fool without proper equipment. Sure, the bravehearts in the Pakistani Army are willing to do their duty whatever it may take but providing them with the 21st century equipment will make them more effective as troopers and cut back the casualties incurred in a conflict. If the US forces werent equipped with such advanced gear, I wouldn't be surprised if they had suffered (by now) some 5000-10000 soldiers! Losing just over a 1000 troops in Iraq in itself goes a long way in speaking in favor of providing your troops with the most advanced equipment to make them battlefield winners! This aint the 60s or 70s anymore. :smokingc:

[utelore]

suck up their pride and purchase 200 merkava's with israeli crewman. PROBLEM SOLVED.
ON A SERIOUS NOTE THEY REALLY NEED TO INCREASE TRAINING WITH THEIR CURRENT EQUIPMENT

[Shazzz]

hello to all the menbers as i m the new member of the group i want to say that os an excelent group and the dissicusion going on are really cool i will try my best to share my Inforamtion with u ok memeber have a nice day
ALLAHHAFIZ

[corsair7772]

Welcome shazz. Make your intros in the social forum not in this warzone. Thanks! ;)

Utelore, just 2 things.
1. Language.

2. Military knowledge.

Work on it. :cop

[Libyan]

Pakistan needs modularity.


Pakistan needs to dump the servile victorian era commonwealth/anglophone phoniness.


Pakistan should addopt Russian/Soviet orginizational tables.


My Pakistani orbat consists of

5 armored divisions made up of

1 t-80U/84 (320 tanks) (320 in service) to serve in 1st corps capital area

1 al khalied (320 tanks) under 180 in service soon to be the sole tank of the armored divisions

2 type 85s (640 tanks) 580 in service (to be modified and used as support vehicles for al khalied armored divisions)

1 type 59 (320 tanks) 2,100 t-55,59,ty69 and al zarrar in service (to be pased and used in the motor rifle regiments)


17 motorrifle divisions made up of 110 t-55/59 or al zarrar tanks each (1,870 tanks in total)


For now all Infantry are carried in m-113's however once pakistan fully gears its industry towards the al khalied the type 85s will be turned into chassis to support the al khalied tanks , a whole family of fighting vehicles is invisioned from 155mm sph, 23x4 turrets and 105mm armed infantry carriers.


work progresses on a 8x8 wheeled pakistani apc based on a commercial truck chasis.


pakistani reserve formations are based on some 1,000 125mm armed type 59s


pakistani armored forces 2010


t-80/u/84 1,000 (total cost from ukraine some 1 billion dollars)

al Khalied 2,000 (main produced battle tank)

al zarrar 5,000 (t-55s and chinese t-59s are being sold now at under the cost of luxury cars around some $40kusd the al zarrar upgrade costs less than $210k




IFV/APC

3,000 m-113/lookalikes (this figure is nearly complete)
2,000 converted t-55/lookalike carriers


2,000 wheeled 8x8 domestic systems



Others


320 203mm artilery
320 170mm koksun (n.korean system)

120 155mm gun on type 85
450 other 155mm systems


1,000+ 122mm d-30 howitzers on truck mounted platforms

1,000+ 105mm tank guns on d-30 trailers as simple anti tank guns

450 130mm m1930 obsolete artillery used in an anti tank and artillery support role.

[mysterious]

Sounds interesting as far as the inventory lists go! I'd still be reluctant to follow Russian ways of handling the army - would only create more problems!

[adeel]

Hello

I wont comment on the orbat that you have posted Libyan, I simply do not know enough about the organization of a military formation to judge. My question is this, If an army is say organized on the basis of a Russian orbat, wouldnt that also entail the use of Russian strategy and tactics. Pakistan has been using a more "westernized" doctrine in their warfighting. Will it be possible for an army which is modeled on a Russian Orbat to fight effectively using a doctrine designed for a different type of military.

I admire the fast moving hard hitting Russian strategy, which is one reason Russian tanks sacrifice protection for speed and mobility. But there are flaws, command control is centgralized, this impedes fluid maneuvers and the ability to react quickly to the changing environment. As far as I know Pakistan and India are both moving towards decentralized control and are modernizing their doctrines in order to adopt a more western approach. Which also includes investing more in troop training and the quality of the individual soldier over large numbers. We can see this in the development of Pakistans Strike Corps and Indias RAPIDS units.

just my two cents folks, hopefully someone who knows more than I, can clear this up

Regards
Adeel

[Libyan]

adeel is it possible you might forward to me your instant messenger so we can talk about this more in depth.?

[adeel]

hello Libyan,
i cannot use the PM system in this forum yet, i have under 20 posts. All though would be very interested to discuss this. Its 2am my time, I need some sleep :) ....but will be looking forward to seeing your replies here untill i can use the PM system.

goodnight
adeel

[gf0012-aust]

Hello

I wont comment on the orbat that you have posted Libyan, I simply do not know enough about the organization of a military formation to judge. My question is this, If an army is say organized on the basis of a Russian orbat, wouldnt that also entail the use of Russian strategy and tactics. Pakistan has been using a more "westernized" doctrine in their warfighting. Will it be possible for an army which is modeled on a Russian Orbat to fight effectively using a doctrine designed for a different type of military.

I admire the fast moving hard hitting Russian strategy, which is one reason Russian tanks sacrifice protection for speed and mobility. But there are flaws, command control is centgralized, this impedes fluid maneuvers and the ability to react quickly to the changing environment. As far as I know Pakistan and India are both moving towards decentralized control and are modernizing their doctrines in order to adopt a more western approach. Which also includes investing more in troop training and the quality of the individual soldier over large numbers. We can see this in the development of Pakistans Strike Corps and Indias RAPIDS units.

just my two cents folks, hopefully someone who knows more than I, can clear this up

Regards
Adeel

I really would question the basis of wanting to develop a "soviet" model. There is no empirical data to show that any of its client states (mainly egypt and syria) were able to effect a continuous and substantial military response.

The very structure of soviet systems was based on centralised control, even the bulk of their interception was based on centralised command and lacked autonomy.

In a modern theatre, a failure to impart autonomous control into a very fluid theatre is going to be a self defeating exercise in battlefield management.

[Libyan]

I am talking about adopting their orginisational tables

Armored Divisions MTOW

Motor Rifle Regiments


Artillery Divisions and Corps


Air Assault Divisions


The Armored Divisions will be designed to be slower and very well armed and able to slug it out with the enemy


While the motor rifle regiments and divisions will be designed to be fast and mobile and able to get beyond the FEBA and FLOT (foward edge of balle area, and foward line of troops)

[mysterious]

A clear example is the fact that this Israeli or American (cant remember correctly) guy was grateful (after the first Middle East war) that most of Iraqi Air Force's training came from the Russians and the French and Pakistanis were not given much chance; which otherwise would've told another tale of losses on both the sides! People know how Pakistan goes about training and how Russia does. ;) Then again, I leave all the complicated stuff and details to be elaborated up on by Gary.

[gf0012-aust]

I am talking about adopting their orginisational tables

Armored Divisions MTOW

Motor Rifle Regiments


Artillery Divisions and Corps


Air Assault Divisions


The Armored Divisions will be designed to be slower and very well armed and able to slug it out with the enemy


While the motor rifle regiments and divisions will be designed to be fast and mobile and able to get beyond the FEBA and FLOT (foward edge of balle area, and foward line of troops)

Ok, in that case, I do agree to some extent. But I think that British/US/German doctrine is far more effective. Force structure is one element of it.

I happen to believe that the UK regimental structure is a proven and sound basis to model an army on. It instils a deeper cameraderie than (say) the US system.

The russian force structure was designed to shock and overwhelm, but if the momentum was checked, then the russians could only throw more manpower, or start using battlefield nukes. They also had the advantage (then) of manpower. With their re-org, they are starting to look suspiciously like a US Marine or Airborne doctrine in "shape".

[Shazzz]

Nice suggestion by all the friends but i think we also have to added some latest aircarft in pak airforce

[yasin_khan]

Libyan your ORBAT is good but very big and Pakistan armed forces will only do self defense in any expedition.the inventry u listed is very much big as concern to tanks.
In my opinion Pakistan should induct tanks but not in that huge quantity.
pakistani armored forces 2010


t-80/u/84 1,000 (total cost from ukraine some 1 billion dollars)

al Khalied 2,000 (main produced battle tank)

it will be like this T-80 not more then 600,AL-Khalid will 1500-1800.
al zarrar 5,000 (t-55s and chinese t-59s are being sold now at under the cost of luxury cars around some $40kusd the al zarrar upgrade costs less than $210k


As far as Al-Zarrar is concern all the T-69s,T-55s and T50s will be upgraded to the program and it will remain that how much they have?
The most hit sector is artillery,anti tank weapons and attack helis.
And new artilleries,anti tanks and attack helis should be added. :)

[yasin_khan]

shazzz
This is land forces forum and if u want to say some thing about Pakistan Air Force then u have to go on military aviation.

Our Topic Is "What Should Be Added In Pak Army?" Pleace stick To the topis thanks for all replies.

Admin: Lets leave admin advice to the admins shall we...

[Libyan]

well I am of the oppinion the pakistan should seriously consider the fact that attack helis are now outdated


even the americans in iraq were unable to use the helicopter due to the dominance of aaa and manpads.

Admin: Follow on posts merged together

as for the 1,000 t-80/u the president of ukraine was quoted as stating he could provide turkey with 1,000 of his nations tanks at a mere cost of some 1 billion dollars.



The T-80/u/t-84 which he is refering to is superior in armor and technology to the Pakistani produced al khalied.


the figure of 2,000 al khalids represents a ten year mass production of 200 tanks per year.


the figures of t-55 types and upgrades represents a concerted effort on the govt of pakistan to purchase obsolete tanks and upgrade them. the t-55 can be had and cheaply egypt purchased t-55's and t-62s from czech rep. for around 55k per tank I believe pakistan can buy the same tanks from china ar less than this cost. and not all of these will be used as tanks others will be in the IFV role as seen here.




http://www.hudi2.republika.pl/BTR-T/AB13.jpg

[gf0012-aust]

well I am of the oppinion the pakistan should seriously consider the fact that attack helis are now outdated


even the americans in iraq were unable to use the helicopter due to the dominance of aaa and manpads.

I agree to some extent, but part of the reason for disproportionate helo losses in Iraq was poor doctrine. They broke their own engagement doctrine and paid the price in some areas for it.

btw, T-72's can be bought in the war surplus heavy plant stores for about 40k.