what would be Pakistan Navy role in indo-pak war?

[yasin_khan]

what should be Pakistan Navy role in indo-pak war?
it would be agressive or defensive!!!!!!!!!! :!:

[XEROX]

Defensive, dude

[corsair7772]

Brahmos, you are obviously not considering our capable submaine fleet which by 2010 should be like this:

1 Song class sub wid more to come.
4 agostas 1 on trials
2 Rebuilt Daphnes
and maybe some gap filters like 2 ming class ( the newer advanced versions for lease or sumthing.)

Thats not counting any Hit and run raid by pn or strikes by PAF.
Thats not really defensive DUDE. ;) :smokingc: :P

[XEROX]

By 2010 we will have

1) 1 Aircraft Carrier
2) 6 Scorpion killer subs

and much more of an offensive punch

[XEROX]

We might have our ATV subs ready by 2010, still who knows when they will be ready

Also we can be fielding the Akullas and maybe another AC Carrier, thats if INS Virat doesnt get retired by then

:smokingc:

[corsair7772]

ummmmm PJ i was talkin about the PN. Sorry for any mis understanding.

[XEROX]

Oh i thought you was comparing the 2 navies in a potentaial conflict up till 2010??

:?

[manna]

well i think pakistan has never promoted offensive actions, she has always stress uponcordial relation and therefor a defensive posture,though an agressive defensive posture and for that she has not stoped evaluating threats to her and accordingly ornating herself with the necessary arsenals,so the role of pakistan navy in any future conflict in the region is quite clear, that live and let live, otherwise,,,,, i
so its a detemined navy based on solid ethics of war,training and motivation,quite capable of making any offensive designed over it a depleted junk of material, :cop

[mysterious]

Shhh everyone! Useless to discuss the role of PN now as its role and strategy would change to a good degree once Gwadar is completed. And did I mention that the Chinese Navy vessels would also be there in the Arabian Sea (thnx to Gwadar). ;)

[lalith prasad]

india will also have amurs,p15a bangalore(atleast3) p17nilagiris(atleast6),3 lst(l) 12 mcvs, 20 gun craft (coast guard) atleast 2 additional krivaks,p28a(atleast6).so indian navy definitely will be beefed up.as of now pakistan may acquire 6 f22s and 6 lutas.these by no means would match india in an offensive capabilities added to it 24(+36)mig29ks,8-10orions,4 tu22m3sand alhs.pakistan cannot afford to use its navy in a defensive mode alone india will have upper advantage.so pakistan will have to use its navy in a defensive mode with its airforce.this will inturn releive some preasure from the iaf.so if pakistani navy doesnt want to be left behind it will have to go for some capital equipments like daring destroyers and lafayette frigates.song and ming clas subs no matter how much upgraded are no match for scorpenes ,amurs ,agustas,and t636kilos.my sources for this informartion is a janes article recently posted in br forum (naval discussion) and www.armedforces.nic.in and www.bharat-rakshak.com.warships of the world.com,globalsecurity and fas.org.

[insas556]

... And did I mention that the Chinese Navy vessels would also be there in the Arabian Sea (thnx to Gwadar). ;)

Pakistan should get out of its thinking that someone is out there, to. Every country has its interest 1st.The chinese , the US , the old famous "6th fleet " have been around before and i don't think it helped much . The Chinese know extremely well what is in there OWN interest and they have always acted accordingly.With the ever integrating economic interests of both china and india between themselves and the global economy, i doubt if both want their maritime trade fiddled around with.

[yasin_khan]

lalith prasad
i think u mention the items are not nough for a country like India which is very big and if war brokes out India will not put all of its naval material to Pakistan.in war India will put 60% to 65% naval material to Pakistan bcoz rest will safe gaurd its eastern front.you have described about 20 to 22 coast gaurd boats then friend these boats are not used in a war but they will only do some defense of their coastal lines.

[insas556]

lalith prasad
i think u mention the items are not nough for a country like India which is very big and if war brokes out India will not put all of its naval material to Pakistan.in war India will put 60% to 65% naval material to Pakistan bcoz rest will safe gaurd its eastern front.you have described about 20 to 22 coast gaurd boats then friend these boats are not used in a war but they will only do some defense of their coastal lines.



Specifically about the coast guard, while this is not to suggest that these ships are for frontline engagement with a frigate or destroyer. The advanced patrol vessels of the Indian Coast are pretty good. Can do extended patrolling, have a helicopter and has a powerful gun ie for a CG ship.an OTO melara 76mm automatic.In fact in some small navies this would be a frontline vessel. Specs can be seen at:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Samar.html

[Aussie Digger]

The Pak Navy would be used offensively AND defensively in a war with India I should imagine. Employing their assets defensively only would be rather similar to a boxer trying to fight with one arm tied behind his back...

[adsH]

The Pak Navy would be used offensively AND defensively in a war with India I should imagine. Employing their assets defensively only would be rather similar to a boxer trying to fight with one arm tied behind his back...

Aussie i agree with you here, Pak navy has traditionally used its lethal Offensive arm the Subs to counter INNavy vessels. i guess the best defence is Offense here, since Pak navy is smaller in numbers and resources they may have a problem with prolonged stand offs. Leaving PAK NAvy in a defensive position would mean that IN.NAVAY would be able to choose the time and place of attack on Pak Navy assets, surgically destroying Pak defenses Bit by bit. Something like a traditional Hit and Run strategy of the English Navy against the Spaniard Naval forces (history)

One thing Pak navy can do is Claim a Buffer Zone between its territorial waters and the Open see. this Zone can be filled with surface/SUB offensive Naval assets of Pak navy. this is the conflict zone so any INNAVY asset entering this zone could be dealt with here rather then closer to the port cities. If Pak navy is successful in showing the INNAVY that Losses are going to be huge for IN-Navy then IN Navy would never enter the Buffer zone. IN NAVY has traditionally been very reluctant to use its Naval assets when they are at risk so INNAVY assets would never Engage Pak naval assets in the Buffer Zone (Self preservation).

I would give one reason for PAF not to move out and further into the Sea, this reason is that it will be in the best interest of the INNAVY to drag the limited resources of the PAk navy out into the sea so support is then limited. PAKNavy does not have a Carriers so Land bases are required for the P3C and the Mirage Rose 3 Naval attack platforms. while IN Navy would be able to closely coordinate with the Huge numbers of the IN assets in the open sea useing there Carriers to launch Air asset.

[corsair7772]

india will also have amurs,p15a bangalore(atleast3) p17nilagiris(atleast6),3 lst(l) 12 mcvs, 20 gun craft (coast guard) atleast 2 additional krivaks,p28a(atleast6).so indian navy definitely will be beefed up.as of now pakistan may acquire 6 f22s and 6 lutas.these by no means would match india in an offensive capabilities added to it 24(+36)mig29ks,8-10orions,4 tu22m3sand alhs.pakistan cannot afford to use its navy in a defensive mode alone india will have upper advantage.so pakistan will have to use its navy in a defensive mode with its airforce.this will inturn releive some preasure from the iaf.so if pakistani navy doesnt want to be left behind it will have to go for some capital equipments like daring destroyers and lafayette frigates.song and ming clas subs no matter how much upgraded are no match for scorpenes ,amurs ,agustas,and t636kilos.my sources for this informartion is a janes article recently posted in br forum (naval discussion) and www.armedforces.nic.in and www.bharat-rakshak.com.warships of the world.com,globalsecurity and fas.org.

Uve rally done your homework but please let me be cruel enough to nitpick some mistakes. ;)

Pakistan is acquiring 4 F-22s and i havent seen any plans for more although its highly probable that there should be. And the PN isnt buying any lutas which are actually called Ludas. And it would do us no good t buy destroyers and other capital class ships as this would put us in an arms race we cant win. The PN is already studying Chinese FACs and it probable that it would induct these along with some frigates. Other factors here are the PAF and the subs whose listing ive already givin above. :smokingc:

[lalith prasad]

dear corsair the information about lutas were just my hopefull estimates.india's original plans are for 12 p17 frigates which are multirole stealth frigates.i had 6 india will ultimately acquire 6p15a bangalore destroyers(i said 3) and 12 p28stealth antisubmarine missile corvettes(i said 6)in each case i made a conservative estimate.whereas the information in the defence websites point to the larger figures india hopes to have a fleet strength of 200 capital ships up from the existing 140 ships the gorshkov will also be coming .the naval chief had recently in an interview had stated that india will also purchase capital ships from abroad to supplement the existing acquisition .since the indian shipyards are currently overbooked.p15a will be the most powerfull warship in south asia incorporating stealth technology.india is also evaluating french paams for their warships and may acquire 60 new helicopters to replace their seakings(cougarmk2 and eh101 are in front running)india has developed a naval variant of alh with the sv2000 radar having a detection range of 160kms.upgrading their il38mays to sea dragon level with russian assistance.tu142s with israeli assistane,sea harriers with israeli assitance(elm 2032 radar).israeli spyder sama are also being evaluated by both navy and army israel is also developing the super barak samk missile for the navy.which israel claim will be able to match the sm series missile's latest variant.india's original plan was for 2 ads but as of now only one has been sanctioned.india is currently evaluating spanish segura and intermarine minesweapers.iit powai has a uuv and an unmanned hovercraft prototype capable of firing missiles and torpedoes.to indian engineering companies like l and t and kirloskar marine engines and tcs(pvt companies) and research institutions like iits and anna unniversity have undertaking research worrk india had also launched a spy satellite tes1 with im resolution a ocean surveillance satellite irs p5,israeli tauvex space camera,and a synthetic aperture radar satellite all of which could be used for surveillance along with the 60 hunterswith the navy (24 acquired 36 on order).india has developed integrated electronic warfare systems(sangraha) for the navy which can jam,modulate and retransmit any electronic signal and can be used in conjunction with army and airforce systems india is 6th country in the world which has vlf communication facility enabling it to communicate with submarines at operating and periscope depths.india is not only developing its warship and also electronic warfare and information warfare capabilities.india will acquire unmatchable superiority once they all come in (most are already in place and rest in 5 to 10 years)india will definitely go on the offensive with its navy in the even of a war.

[P.A.F]

well in my point of view guys pakistan would attack big time.
hey indian guys out there is it true that india never used it's aircraft carriers in the previous war between the two. i heard that it was kept in the bay of bangalore.

[lalith prasad]

vikrant was used in bombing east pakistan and was the only capital ship deployed there its aircrafts hit chittagong naval and air bases and completely wiped them out and hit dhaka including the governors headquarters . viraat was in the harbour(mumbai due to boiler problems).didnt need to use both the carriers as the missile boats did a pretty good work with karachi.samars and sukanyas can be fitted with land attack missiles samar was tested with the dhanush missile.

[lalith prasad]

:P sorry it was sukanya.

[insas556]

well in my point of view guys pakistan would attack big time.
hey indian guys out there is it true that india never used it's aircraft carriers in the previous war between the two. i heard that it was kept in the bay of bangalore.

It would be nice to wait and think as to what may be big time to Pak may not be that big for the opposite side.

As to Indian carriers sitting in the Bay of Bengal, not exactly , they saw action in the East -pak theatre and played a major role in the bombing of Chittagong.In the West ,Karachi port was visted by the IN and a nice firework display was put up.Maybe this link can be visited for details.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1971War/Banerjee.html

[lalith prasad]

indian coast guard is no mug it was the first coast guard in 100 years to capture a pirate ship in the open seas(alondra rainbow japanese registration) and has carried out excersises in philipines and vietnam indian navy has displayed its reach from straits of mallaca to mozambique and had provided security cover for the world economic meet in mozambique and another african nation was also involved in operation cactus(liberation of maldives) .coast guard was involveds in the joint patrol of the palk straits with sri lanka during the their conflict with ltte in 2000.there are also plans for acquiring 20 fast patrol boats for the coast guard these shall be partially funded by the government and the rest by reliance industries and iocl.i hope the coast guard selects the russiam mirages which were offered to it during the defexpo2004.(www.navaltechnology.com)mirages have a speed of 50kts rage 1800 miles and is capables of carrying vikhr and igla missiles also coast guard is acquiring floating border outposts for patrolling the rann of kutch.the 10 griffon8000 hovercrafts can also be used for this purpose as well as troop transports.( capacity 120 troops each).russia also offered india the zubr class of aircushion landing craft.dont know much about it.in the event of a war the coast guard automatically comes under navy's charge.

[P.A.F]

hey insas. when pakistan attack big time you don't know the devistation it will cause dude. let me get this into you head. pakistan is always big to it's opposition. ;)

[yasin_khan]

lalith prasad u r talking about vikrant ads.
in 1965 indo-pak war it was not used.where was ur vikrant when we bombed your districts in eastern coasts with ours six ships called the six forts.
in 1971 your commenders thought that pns ghazi will destroy vikrant and your vikrant wad hided in nicobar islands.when reports comes that pns ghazi is sinked then you gave the mission to vikrant that bombed down east pakistan. :D:

[P.A.F]

:D: thats what i'm sayin.

[lalith prasad]

realy and please tell me what were pakistan navy and airforce doing when indian missile boats(400tonns) came to pakistani territorial waters and burnt karachi up (3 boats)dont talk of the 60s talk of 70s when we split your country up. your airforce is a capable force.but what is it doing when your naval chief asked for its help one fokker recce flight that saw the boats and yet you didnt do anything.with this kind of attitude(you fight your war and i will fight mine) you cant win a war.if pakistan is improving then india is also improving .if you hadnt underestimated those boats maybe karachi wouldnt have burned.thats is the biggest problem with you guys underestimating your opponents.by the way recently we raised the wreck of your submarine ghazi .there are rumours that your airchief asked nyour admiral to mind his own buisness when karachi was being attacked.he was reportedly angry at being disturbed in his sleep.check the archives of the defencejournal.com you will fing a seried of articles written by a pakistani colonel on the bangladesh war debacle read it carefully it is the official document which was recently declassified. :) three boats raining missiles without enough fuel for a two way trip and burning pakistan's largest city(its commercial capital and its biggest naval port 0 and all you did was hit a religious town which did not have substaintial airdefence or naval cover and didnot do as much damage as we did.and what did you do after karachi bombing hide your ships in your harbour for the rest of the war . one of the indian missile boats had suffered engine problem and was towed back to harbour you navy or airforce could have atleast got that .the remaining two boats did not have enough fuel to make the return trip and had to use the engine oil .insitu modificatrions had to be carried out consuming more time. and where was your navy when we blockaded all pakistani sea lanes of communication during the kargil war sleeping as usual.

[insas556]

lalith prasad u r talking about vikrant ads.
in 1965 indo-pak war it was not used.where was ur vikrant when we bombed your districts in eastern coasts with ours six ships called the six forts.
in 1971 your commenders thought that pns ghazi will destroy vikrant and your vikrant wad hided in nicobar islands.when reports comes that pns ghazi is sinked then you gave the mission to vikrant that bombed down east pakistan. :D:

Both the Incidents refer to 71. Why would any commander expose its assets unnecessarily, they are to be used EFFECTIVELY, perhaps that the reason why the navy bombed pak so effectively on both sides.I wonder why the grin at the bombing of east pak??????????????


quote="P.A.F"]hey insas. when pakistan attack big time you don't know the devistation it will cause dude. let me get this into you head. pakistan is always big to it's opposition. ;)[/quote]

Right , 'WHEN', we are still waiting!BY the way is losing half of Pak not devasting?

[corsair7772]

Cool it out everyone! Might i remind all fellow pakistanis that Indians are more proud of there navy than anything else. Please dont try to offend them on that, keep the discussion based on facts and logic. :nonsense

[adsH]

and where was your navy when we blockaded all pakistani sea lanes of communication during the kargil war sleeping as usual.

Abit too much patriotism lalith !! Kargil was a loss for the INdian side, there was no blockade in place its the Indian media that was taunting of such a blockade!! it never occured......

why do you keep going back to ghazi !! its like the only piece of proof of your victory. yes you WON YES YOU WON !! are you Happy are you ohh the big kids must of hurt your feelings.

about Karachi no one forgot that My father was there and i am sure he wasn't amused to see scores of bodies pilling up in the Hospital, he was a junior Doctor at the time but i am sure he had alife time of experience, Pakistanis never FORGET !! and they never underestimate there enemies.
what you claim isn't true PAF was occupied defending east pakistan from your Indian Banded of thugs (INDIAN ARMY) attacking and inciting TERRORISM in East Pakistan and there were INDIAN TERRORISTS INFILTRATORS from India, too who were sponsored and TRAINED in INDIAN TRAINING CAMPS!! (bloody opportunists).
What Goes around comes around..

News flash you never tore Pakistan into half it was a local job, something similar to Kashmir!! please Lalith there are alot of people here that can argue with you till your key burn out on your keyboard, so lets stay away from this conversation. as far i see it this thread is now nothing but a flame pit!! webs would do the honers and lock the thread!!

[P.A.F]

yeah very true. everything adsh has said just sums it all up. case dismissed. :cop

[corsair7772]

Everyone cool it. The topic is on PNs role not INs history. You wanna discuss that make your own thread (but i dont think itll last 24 hours) :cop