Colombia to Spend $235 Mln for Air Force Aircraft

[Oqaab]

Colombia to Spend $235 Mln for Air Force Aircraft (Update1)

June 30 (Bloomberg) -- Colombia said it will spend about $234.6 million to purchase at least 24 warplanes to boost the operational capacity of the Air Force as the government steps up its campaign against drug-funded insurgents and paramilitaries.

Colombia will seek bids from aircraft makers to replace its aging fleet of A-37 and OV-10 aircraft, Defense Minister Jorge Alberto Uribe said at a news conference in Bogota. He said he wants to have the aircraft selected and financing lined up for the transaction by the end of the year.

``The state of our current fleet makes it a national necessity to replace the planes, more so with the conflict we are fighting,'' said Uribe.

Colombia has been enlarging and upgrading its armed forces since 2000 to step up pressure on the country's estimated 40,000 guerrillas and paramilitaries. The armed forces need light aircraft that can provide close support to military units on the ground, said Air Force commander General Edgar Alfonso Lesmez.

The government in November 2002 shelved plans to buy about 24 planes and decided instead to upgrade its A37 and OV-10 aircraft. The government at the time had been considering light- attack Super Tucano planes made by Brazil's Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica SA.

Link
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=afKqAu5gJBns&refer=latin_ame rica

[G-Capo]

We bought some Super Tucano's.For that much money we could have goten atleast a dozen second hand F-16's.

[Waylander]

I really like the Super Tucanos.
They are for sure a good choice for area control and CAS against low tech forces if you want to have low operational costs.
And a old style plane with new tech is just lovely to see. :)

[Stimpy75]

although it´s not a "small" plane,but what´s about the SU-25?not the more expensive SU-39,but more the SU-25 Scorpion,a georgian version equipped with israeli avionics and the ability to use both eastern and western ordenance.

[aaaditya]

although it´s not a "small" plane,but what´s about the SU-25?not the more expensive SU-39,but more the SU-25 Scorpion,a georgian version equipped with israeli avionics and the ability to use both eastern and western ordenance.

i believe that the su25 and su39,would be a bit of an overkill against drugrunners,smugglers and terrorists. also its relatively higher speed would make it less suitable for the counter insurgency roles.

[G-Capo]

The Army wanted the Super Tucano's becuase of the loiter time above a battlefield any where from 2-4 hours depending on the payload and altitude and also it was cheap to operate.

We bought 24 Super Tucano's and 1 simulator rather expensive for some prop planes I believe.

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/other/stucano-i.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AT-27_Super_Tucano_lg.jpg

Me personally I would have went with some Su-25's Frogfoots.They can take a beating and we have lost alot of prop planes that are used for aerial sparying to ground fire.This is an expensive purchase for prop planes.

[Ths]

G-capo: This really taste of a whopping big bribe - and not much else.

10 mio USD a piece: I can say we purchased old F-16A from the US to fill up attrition for 5 mio USD add to that update costs of about another 5 mio USD and you get a very good fighter that will last (in south america) at least 25 years.

I agree for drugbusting a turboprop would be very good; but not at that price: We are talking 5-10 times to expensive - and with normal going bribe rate in south america 3-4 times to expensive.

My idea would be something like the Pucara.

[contedicavour]

What jets would the Colombian air force use against Chavez' new SU-30 ??
That threat is worth buying some new air superiority fighters.

cheers

[Ths]

Well Hugo Chavez is a problem in so far that it violates the Monroe doctrin - or rather the interpretation subsequent administrations.

I recall Peru - I think - recieving Soviet aircraft back in the bad old days. The problem was that these supposedly advanced planes could fly - just. I understand the gunsight was a cross on the pane made by a speedmarker (or close to it - the world had progresses from the RF-84F Thunderflash).

[contedicavour]

Well Hugo Chavez is a problem in so far that it violates the Monroe doctrin - or rather the interpretation subsequent administrations.

I recall Peru - I think - recieving Soviet aircraft back in the bad old days. The problem was that these supposedly advanced planes could fly - just. I understand the gunsight was a cross on the pane made by a speedmarker (or close to it - the world had progresses from the RF-84F Thunderflash).

Well Peru operates Fitters SU20/22 which are indeed good for a museum, but the SU30 Chavez is buying will beat any air force fighter south of the Rio Grande and that's a problem.
Even the few Mirage 2000 Brazil is buying second hand or the new F16s Chile is buying (though without Amraam ?) are inferior to the latest SU30s.
Hence my suggestion Colombia does something about it... what about taking second hand US ANG F-15A/Bs (or C/Ds but I think we're dreaming here) ?

cheers

[Waylander]

Arent't the F-15A/B a little bit worn out?
The cells are not the newest ones anymore.

[JBodnar39]

[Even the few Mirage 2000 Brazil is buying second hand or the new F16s Chile is buying (though without Amraam ?) are inferior to the latest SU30s.
Hence my suggestion Colombia does something about it... what about taking second hand US ANG F-15A/Bs (or C/Ds but I think we're dreaming here) ?

cheers[/quote]


The F-16's Chile is getting will be upgraded to the equivalent of the NATO MLU standard. In the right hands they wil be a match for the Su-30

[Waylander]

Are they getting AIM-120 of some kind?
Or do they rely on AIM9?

[radiosilence]

the colombians will be able to get AIM 120 althought not the lastest version by playing up the chavez threat. especially after chavez embarassed bush at the un. the adminstration is still hot about that incident.

[Ths]

My point being: What capability are those Russian planes going to have? The Russians are not going to annoy the Americans unnessesarily - if for no other reason than to keep oil prices high. Russia is not going to let a lucrative international crisis with China be spoil by a South American clown.

[contedicavour]

My point being: What capability are those Russian planes going to have? The Russians are not going to annoy the Americans unnessesarily - if for no other reason than to keep oil prices high. Russia is not going to let a lucrative international crisis with China be spoil by a South American clown.

The Russians are more than happy to piss off the US in their own backyard. They consider it as a tactical response to what they perceive as US and NATO meddling in their own "backyard" ie Georgia and the Ukraine.

What international crisis with China are you referring to ? :confused:

The SU30s will almost certainly have AA12 amraam-like BVR missiles and AA11 short range missiles, plus probably some anti-shipping missiles such as Kh31. They will be a very serious threat to neighbors in case of border fights. They can surely wreck anything Colombia or Brazil has, for instance.

cheers

[contedicavour]

Are they getting AIM-120 of some kind?
Or do they rely on AIM9?

They could end up using AIM7M (there are still plenty in stock).
I haven't read anywhere that they'll be getting AIM120 after all, and I'm not sure you can fit Meteor or Mica (Meteor isn't even ready yet btw) that easily on a F16.

cheers

[Waylander]

I thought that F-16 is normally not able to use Sparrows.

[Ths]

The crisis that China has to do something about North Korea and generally pipe down their military ambitions.

In case You haven't noticed we've had high oil-prices for some time. Which is the US way of telling China that the USA can run China into the ground anytime.

[contedicavour]

The crisis that China has to do something about North Korea and generally pipe down their military ambitions.

In case You haven't noticed we've had high oil-prices for some time. Which is the US way of telling China that the USA can run China into the ground anytime.

Yes right, but what does this have to do with Russian support of Venezuela ?? Here's it's pretty much the opposite, Russia using high oil prices leverage to finance a buildup of its forces and push exports to countries that are in the US' backyard, with a target of rolling back NATO and UE expansion in its former satellite states.

cheers

[contedicavour]

I thought that F-16 is normally not able to use Sparrows.

The MLU ones can. Since the Chilean F16s are able to launch Amraams, they can launch Sparrows as well. Hence my speculation that if Chile can't have access to Amraams, and if the F16 is incompatible with Mica, then the only BVR weapon available is Sparrow (may be Meteor, but it is still a few years away from full operational status)

cheers

[Big-E]

Super Tacanos.... pfft

I'd rather fly P-51s, they are so much more powerful and efficient.

[Stimpy75]

The MLU ones can. Since the Chilean F16s are able to launch Amraams, they can launch Sparrows as well. Hence my speculation that if Chile can't have access to Amraams, and if the F16 is incompatible with Mica, then the only BVR weapon available is Sparrow (may be Meteor, but it is still a few years away from full operational status)

cheers
ey conte....you forget the Derby missile;)
As you know Chile and Israel have a good relationship,they are already operating Python 3 missile on their Pantera planes.....and there is no political pressure to get these missiles!

[contedicavour]

ey conte....you forget the Derby missile;)
As you know Chile and Israel have a good relationship,they are already operating Python 3 missile on their Pantera planes.....and there is no political pressure to get these missiles!

Ah-ha you are right, thans for reminding me about those !
Derby is already operational aboard latest blocks of F16s such as those acquired by Chile ?
How close does it come to matching AIM-120B in terms of range, speed and resistance to ECM ?

cheers

[Waylander]

Super Tacanos.... pfft

I'd rather fly P-51s, they are so much more powerful and efficient.

Because of what?

[Stimpy75]

From what i have read the Derby missile is quite capable,although it´s range is slightly inferior to AMRAAM,but its ECM should be on par...not much is known about this missle....Well SAAF purchased these missiles for their Gripen fighters....
for more infos
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/derby/Derby.html

[Big-E]

Because of what?

Speed, engine, altitude, payload... given she needs avionics upgrade for missiles, guns- 6x.50 cal is far superior to 2x12mm and 1x20mm. P-51 can do some heavy duty bombing, they can carry 2,000lb bombs. If you are going to buy a modern combat prop a P-51 configured with modern avionics is a superior choice. They will take any prop in a dog fight and have a chance against many of South America's aged jet fighters as well as pounding the stuffing out of jungle guerillas.

They were retired in the 80s and I can't for the life of me understand why they would purchase ALXs over a superior prop aircraft. The P-51 was the pinnacle of prop design and if cash strapped militaries demand prop combat aircraft they should go in there with the best.

[contedicavour]

From what i have read the Derby missile is quite capable,although it´s range is slightly inferior to AMRAAM,but its ECM should be on par...not much is known about this missle....Well SAAF purchased these missiles for their Gripen fighters....
for more infos
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/derby/Derby.html

OK thanks :) From the numbers I see I would still consider Chile's F16s with Derby and Python 4 as inferior to Venezuela's future SU30 with AA11 & AA12 in a direct engagement because of the Sukhoi's longer range radar and missiles. Though I do acknowledge that those theoretical data are probably not 100% reliable and that Rafael/IAI may have an interest in underestimating the performance of its weaponry, just in case ;)

cheers

[Aussie Digger]

Though I do acknowledge that those theoretical data are probably not 100% reliable and that Rafael/IAI may have an interest in underestimating the performance of its weaponry, just in case ;) cheers

As does Russia in OVERESTIMATING the capability of it's particular systems...

[Ths]

Conte:
Yes precisely: When this current tiff with the chinese is over the US might turn back and look at what this breathing space has been used for by the russians. How much are the russian going to risk provoking the USA into wiping out the russian export revenue?

[contedicavour]

Conte:
Yes precisely: When this current tiff with the chinese is over the US might turn back and look at what this breathing space has been used for by the russians. How much are the russian going to risk provoking the USA into wiping out the russian export revenue?

Pretty dramatic scenario... since a stop to russian exports would hit good old europe first of all (we rely too much on their natural gas for example).
On the other hand, Russia's current economic renaissance is heavily reliant on continued export of expensive commodities...

cheers

[Big-E]

Conte:
Yes precisely: When this current tiff with the chinese is over the US might turn back and look at what this breathing space has been used for by the russians. How much are the russian going to risk provoking the USA into wiping out the russian export revenue?


Wouldn't it be in Russia's interest to do such a thing... if the USN wipes out PROC forces they will need more Russian equipment for us to send to the scrap yard. ;)

[Ths]

It would not be a stop of the flow of oil; but a stop of revenue. Depending on base: Oil accounts for 1/3 to 2/3 of Russias export revenue, and prices have swung between 11 and 70 USD pr. barrel with few years.
Russia is interested in a stable costoumer (preferrably at high prices) and Europe is interested in a stable supplier (preferrably at low prices).

Some years back the European economic problem was to provide food at stable prices - preferrably low as it was the German economy that is in focus.
Today it is oil (lets face it food has become very cheap).
The problem is that the net exporters like Denmark and Britain does not have the same motive. But all in all: Europe finds it bothersome with the mood swings of US foreign policy - which is at the basis of the "anti-americanism" that diverse nutcases blow out of proportion.

That was the brief version.

[Ths]

Big E.

Interesting point that raises a few questions:

1. To what extend is the expansion of the Chinese navy directed against Russia. The Pacific Fleet is the only Fleet left to Russia with any freedom of movement. The expansion programme of the Chinese fleet cannot hope to deter a determined USA - not even on the subject of Taiwan.
The US Navy is a jealoux navy that will not sit on its hands while the Chinese Fleet just grows. Up to now the growth of the Chinese Navy has been offset to some extend by the decay of the Russian.

2. With increased cooperation with Russia China exchanges (or adds) one depency for another.

[Big-E]

Big E.

Interesting point that raises a few questions:

1. To what extend is the expansion of the Chinese navy directed against Russia. The Pacific Fleet is the only Fleet left to Russia with any freedom of movement. The expansion programme of the Chinese fleet cannot hope to deter a determined USA - not even on the subject of Taiwan.
The US Navy is a jealoux navy that will not sit on its hands while the Chinese Fleet just grows. Up to now the growth of the Chinese Navy has been offset to some extend by the decay of the Russian.

2. With increased cooperation with Russia China exchanges (or adds) one depency for another.

I don't see the fall of the Russian fleet being replaced by PLAN as a good thing. PROC actually has money to invest in their fleet! PLAN is much more likely to engage USN than the Russian fleet ever was.. ie Taiwan. The USN might be jealous but what can we do but watch PLAN grow? We won't attack unless provoked. PLAN is currently building twice as fast as we are. :lul

[Ths]

Well one thing the USA could do is to build more ships - Especially for the task. That is being done with the USS Freedom, that clearly is a sinofobe vessel. And I expect to see some hefty order for smaller Danish yards for their mine clearing equipment.

[swerve]

Some years back the European economic problem was to provide food at stable prices - preferrably low as it was the German economy that is in focus.
Today it is oil (lets face it food has become very cheap).
The problem is that the net exporters like Denmark and Britain does not have the same motive.

The UK is no longer a net exporter of oil.

[Ths]

Well then - close.

[contedicavour]

I don't see the fall of the Russian fleet being replaced by PLAN as a good thing. PROC actually has money to invest in their fleet! PLAN is much more likely to engage USN than the Russian fleet ever was.. ie Taiwan. The USN might be jealous but what can we do but watch PLAN grow? We won't attack unless provoked. PLAN is currently building twice as fast as we are. :lul

Well, as long as the PLAN doesn't develop a strong ocean-going blue-water navy, it isn't too much of a problem. They are just making it even more impossible to attack their territorial waters or coastal cities (even supposing somebody would be so crazy as to try).
Other than the issue of how to defend Taiwan, for the moment the strengthening of PLAN isn't really a challenge for the mighty USN.
However, the day the PLAN comes out with carriers and serious SSNs (Han are pitiful, and the new Type 093 are based on Victor-III so not comparable to Russian Akula for example) then the USN will have to do something to keep its current huge lead in the Pacific.

cheers

[Ths]

Well there is the good thing about replacing PLAN in the place of the Russian Navy: They don't start at the level the russians left off.
F.i. is the PLAN able to operate surface units bigger than destroyers?
Cruisers and Carriers would challenge on USNavy's home turf.
The Russian experience does give an indication of how difficult it is to build a Carrier force from scratch (more or less) - one thing is building the ships - quite another is operating them - we are talking about a large number of skilled specialists working seamlessly together.

[Jambock]

Hi ! I am Brazilian and this is my first participation in this forum, forgives for my english. :D

First Columbian ALX/Super Tucano
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7696/alxdh9.gif

The purchase of 24 Su-30 for the Chavez forced Colombia to change its initial plans of only buying the ALX and modernizing the Kfir.

Now the plans are to buy 24 used fighters (probably F-16) and 2 airplanes AEW (R99A ?)

[contedicavour]

Hi ! I am Brazilian and this is my first participation in this forum, forgives for my english. :D

First Columbian ALX/Super Tucano
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7696/alxdh9.gif

The purchase of 24 Su-30 for the Chavez forced Colombia to change its initial plans of only buying the ALX and modernizing the Kfir.

Now the plans are to buy 24 used fighters (probably F-16) and 2 airplanes AEW (R99A ?)

Ahhh good news at last ;) Somebody has to wake up to the Venezuelan SU30 threat... My question is whether F16s are the most suitable against long-range 2-engine SU30s... I'd rather go for second hand US ANG F15s with upgrades to ensure AIM120 compatibility. Especially if the SU30s carry R77/AA12 missiles.

Btw since you are Brazilian, which missiles are carried aboard the second hand Mirage 2000 that the Brazilian air force is buying from the French ? Is it just matra 530 + Magic 2 or are we talking Mica active-guidance missiles ?

cheers

[Jambock]

Ahhh good news at last ;) Somebody has to wake up to the Venezuelan SU30 threat... My question is whether F16s are the most suitable against long-range 2-engine SU30s... I'd rather go for second hand US ANG F15s with upgrades to ensure AIM120 compatibility. Especially if the SU30s carry R77/AA12 missiles.

I don´t see much advantage of the Su-30 for a F-16.

Btw since you are Brazilian, which missiles are carried aboard the second hand Mirage 2000 that the Brazilian air force is buying from the French ? Is it just matra 530 + Magic 2 or are we talking Mica active-guidance missiles ?

cheers

Don´t remember me these cursed Mirage 2000C....:confused:( Magic II and Super 530D.)

The purchase of Mirage 2000C was politics and not technique, the FAB (Brazilian Air Force) never wanted Mirage 2000.

The winner of F-X was the Gripen and when they decided to buy second hand fighters they wanted Gripen or F-16MLU.


Somebody has to wake up to the Venezuelan SU30 threat

.....not only Colombia, waits notice of Brazil in 2007 ;)


Speaking of Venezuela..... First Su-30
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/164/longhornhq3ut5.jpg

[Ths]

Jambock: There is actually a twist to that story.

Ex-President Clinton (or was it Carter) was in Sweden and told the then prime minister Göran Persson how deplorable the USA found it that Sweden was selling Gripen to Brazil (and he as prome minister was peddling death and destruction) - and as the engines are American, the USA could make Sweden regret interfering with the Monroe-doctrin. So much is public record.

My guess is that the F-16 wasn't offered to avoid an (ex-)president being acused of calling the tubby kettle black. So Brazil had to scrummage the junkyards of aviation and ended up in France.

[contedicavour]

I don´t see much advantage of the Su-30 for a F-16.



Don´t remember me these cursed Mirage 2000C....:confused:( Magic II and Super 530D.)

The purchase of Mirage 2000C was politics and not technique, the FAB (Brazilian Air Force) never wanted Mirage 2000.

The winner of F-X was the Gripen and when they decided to buy second hand fighters they wanted Gripen or F-16MLU.




.....not only Colombia, waits notice of Brazil in 2007 ;)


Speaking of Venezuela..... First Su-30
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/164/longhornhq3ut5.jpg

How about getting Dassault to update your Mirage 2000C to 2000-5 configuration with Mica active guidance missiles ? Besides, the French air force will soon decommission more 2000s as the Rafales enter in service... though it will take a while because the Rafales are replacing Jaguars and F1s before the 2000s.

Against big 2-engine long range SU30s I'm not sure Gripen or F16 MLU are good solutions purely for reasons of range and max payload. Given the size of the airspace of a nation the size of Brazil, I'd have expected Typhoons or SU30s or if no money... then why not second hand Tornado ADVs ?

cheers

[Ths]

The real issue is what the USA will do about Venezuela getting these Russian planes. We are talking about Russia going out of its way to be obnoxious to the USA. I'm just waiting for the hammer to fall - I just don't know how it will fall.

[Jambock]

Today Embraer delivers 5 Super Tucano to Colombia

EMBRAER DELIVERS FIVE SUPER TUCANO
AIRCRAFT TO COLOMBIA
Event marks the first export of the multi-purpose military aircraft


São José dos Campos, December 7, 2006 – Embraer announces the delivery of the first five Super Tucano aircraft to the Colombian Air Force (FAC) in a ceremony held at Embraer’s Gavião Peixoto Unit in the State of São Paulo, Brazil. The event was attended by the Colombian Air Force official representative, Major General Ricardo Rubianogrott; the Ambassador of Colombia in Brazil, Mario Galofre Cano; Embraer’s Chairman, President and CEO Maurício Botelho and Executive Vice-President for the Defense and Government Market Luiz Carlos Aguiar, among others.

The Colombian Air Force announced an order for 25 Super Tucano light attack aircraft in December 2005, marking the first export deal for this model. They will be deployed on internal security missions and border patrol. A comprehensive logistics training package with a full flight simulator is included. “The Super Tucano is already in operation and is doing very well in the Amazon region,” said Luiz Carlos Aguiar, Embraer Executive Vice-President for Defense and Government Market. “We strongly believe that it will also be very helpful to the Colombian Air Force by enhancing its operational capabilities in that region.”

“After an extensive evaluation, the Colombian Air Force selected the Super Tucano as the most effective option for the important mission of internal security,” said Major General Ricardo Rubianogrott, Colombian Air Force official representative.

About the Super Tucano

Embraer’s Super Tucano is an evolution of the world-known basic trainer Tucano, of which 650 are in operation with approximately 17 air forces worldwide, including Brazil, Colombia, France, Egypt, Kuwait, and the United Kingdom.

The Super Tucano is a multi-purpose military aircraft – trainer, light attack, and weapons familiarization – available in either single or
two-seat versions, and is the perfect combination of the turboprop power with fourth-generation avionics and armament system, making it the next-generation aircraft suitable for air forces around the world to increase their training and operational capabilities.

Its innovations include leading edge in-flight virtual simulation technology for training purposes, a feature that allows student pilots to increase their mission effectiveness, information management and situational awareness skills, coping with the new operational scenarios ahead. The complete customized virtual radar training can be managed through an embedded data-link system that also handles virtual RWR (Radar Warning Receiver), ACMI (Air Combat Maneuver Instrumentation), virtual BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles, among other simulation features. The Super Tucano is exceptionally suited for the Information Warfare environment.

Tailored to operate in the most hostile environment – high temperatures, moisture, and dust – it is also performing operational missions as part of the latest and most sophisticated surveillance system in the world, the Amazon Surveillance Program (SIVAM). The aircraft is flying day/night border surveillance missions, pursuing and
intercepting aerial targets engaged in illegal activities. It is capable of receiving and transmitting data through its state-of-the-art data-link systems. Sensor images, including target data, are readily received or relayed to Command and Control Stations, both on the ground or airborne, and to other combat aircraft in the operational theater.

The Super Tucano provides a fourth-generation Human-Machine Interface (HMI) designed to minimize pilot workload through the optimization of all tasks (tracking, interception, surveillance, support, etc.). An outstanding avionics suite that includes HUD (Head-Up Display) with UFCP (Up Front Control Panel), liquid-crystal Active Matrixes Colored Multi-Function Displays (CMFD), Automatic Pilot with embedded mission planning capability, and Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR), among others, give the Super Tucano technical capabilities far ahead of its competition. Its NVG Gen III fullycompatible cockpit, as well as the superb ergonomic design, ensures the perfect integration of the modern environment in which the future fighter pilots will fly.

In addition to its jet-like performance provided by a 1,600 SHP, FADEC-controlled PWC PT6A-68C Pratt & Withney turboprop engine, the Super Tucano features such innovations as in-flight virtual simulation for armaments and sensors, an environmental control system designed to assure crew comfort; and an On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS). Whatever the application, zero-zero Martin-Baker MK-10LCX ejection seats featuring a three-mode ejection sequential device have also been incorporated. Cockpit armoring was introduced to ensure crew safety during operational missions.

Embraer spared no efforts to provide the Super Tucano with an armament system that reflects state-of-the-art technology: 1,500 kg (3,307 lb) of external loads distributed among five underwing and fuselage hard points (without jeopardizing its outstanding performance) provides the capability of carrying a wide array of typical fighter weapons – either smart or conventional.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/yy/embraer/fac/super_tucano_2.jpg
http://www.defesanet.com.br/yy/embraer/fac/super_tucano.jpg
http://www.defesanet.com.br/yy/embraer/fac/super_tucano_3.jpg
http://www.defesanet.com.br/yy/embraer/fac/super_tucano_1.jpg

[Jambock]

My guess is that the F-16 wasn't offered to avoid an (ex-)president being acused of calling the tubby kettle black. So Brazil had to scrummage the junkyards of aviation and ended up in France.

The F-16 was participating of the F-X, but the AIM-120 would be storaged in U.S.A..

How about getting Dassault to update your Mirage 2000C to 2000-5 configuration with Mica active guidance missiles ? Besides, the French air force will soon decommission more 2000s as the Rafales enter in service... though it will take a while because the Rafales are replacing Jaguars and F1s before the 2000s.

As I said the FAB never wanted Mirage 2000, they will fly for more 10 years without great modernizations....maybe install MAA-2 (A-Darter)
a
Against big 2-engine long range SU30s I'm not sure Gripen or F16 MLU are good solutions purely for reasons of range and max payload. Given the size of the airspace of a nation the size of Brazil, I'd have expected Typhoons or SU30s or if no money... then why not second hand Tornado ADVs ?

In 2007 the FAB will buy Rafales.

[Ths]

Jambock: That is one way of saying no: Of course You can buy our military plane; but without weapons!

[Jambock]

Jambock: That is one way of saying no: Of course You can buy our military plane; but without weapons!

This is good for you?
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q120/do_mal/FAB/notderbyf5.jpg

[Ths]

Jambock:
Wasn't it You that said that the USA would keep the AMRAAMS in the USA??

[Jambock]

Jambock:
Wasn't it You that said that the USA would keep the AMRAAMS in the USA??

Because that the FAB bought Israeli missiles DERBY for the F-5BR.

[contedicavour]

Because that the FAB bought Israeli missiles DERBY for the F-5BR.

So Brazil already has Derby aboard its F5s or the picture is just a proposal at an airshow ? Does the F5's radar handle a missile only marginally inferior to AIM120 ? I remember reading of a radar update with Grifo by an Italian defence company, but I'm not sure it is powerful enough...

How reliable is the news about a Rafale acquisition in 2007 ??

cheers

[swerve]

So Brazil already has Derby aboard its F5s or the picture is just a proposal at an airshow ? Does the F5's radar handle a missile only marginally inferior to AIM120 ? I remember reading of a radar update with Grifo by an Italian defence company, but I'm not sure it is powerful enough...
cheers

The Grifo-F is fitted to Brazils upgraded F-5Es, the first of which are now being delivered. Grifo-F doesn't have a very long range (the antenna limits it - sized for the small nose of the F-5E), but Derby or R-Darter would give it abilities it doesn't have with IR-guided missiles. Even if the radar doesn't allow the full range of the missiles to be used (but they're said to have shorter range than AIM-120 or Mica), they still give it a much better effective range, & a valuable all-weather capability.

[contedicavour]

The Grifo-F is fitted to Brazils upgraded F-5Es, the first of which are now being delivered. Grifo-F doesn't have a very long range (the antenna limits it - sized for the small nose of the F-5E), but Derby or R-Darter would give it abilities it doesn't have with IR-guided missiles. Even if the radar doesn't allow the full range of the missiles to be used (but they're said to have shorter range than AIM-120 or Mica), they still give it a much better effective range, & a valuable all-weather capability.

Interesting... then also the AMX have Grifo and are compatible with the Israeli missiles !

cheers

[swerve]

Interesting... then also the AMX have Grifo and are compatible with the Israeli missiles !

cheers

They have a different version, optimised for air-ground. Grifo is a family of radars, not a single product.

See what the manufacturer says -

http://www.finmec.com/GRIFORadar.asp?pdb=GRIFORadar
http://www.selex-sas.com/datasheets_ga/Grifofamily.pdf (more up to date)

[contedicavour]

They have a different version, optimised for air-ground. Grifo is a family of radars, not a single product.

See what the manufacturer says -

http://www.finmec.com/GRIFORadar.asp?pdb=GRIFORadar
http://www.selex-sas.com/datasheets_ga/Grifofamily.pdf (more up to date)

Wow thanks a lot, it's not every day that I learn new things about my country's defence industry ;) I didn't know there were so many sub variants of the Grifo radar.

cheers

[Big-E]

Wow thanks a lot, it's not every day that I learn new things about my country's defence industry ;)


Your slipping pal... ;)

[contedicavour]

Your slipping pal... ;)

Ahem I fear so, I'll have to dedicate more time to revising Finmeccanica's brochures ;) Btw did you get your high speed internet on your next aircraft carrier ?

cheers

[Big-E]

Btw did you get your high speed internet on your next aircraft carrier ?

I don't leave till Jan 1st for Norfolk. At least I get to enjoy New Years and let the hangover wear off on the flight up. :) I was checking into the faster antenna upgrade for CVNs and it looks like all have been fitted. As long as I don't get bumped off it should be good enough for browsing. Question is "will I have to pull rank for computer time?" :lol2

[contedicavour]

I don't leave till Jan 1st for Norfolk. At least I get to enjoy New Years and let the hangover wear off on the flight up. :) I was checking into the faster antenna upgrade for CVNs and it looks like all have been fitted. As long as I don't get bumped off it should be good enough for browsing. Question is "will I have to pull rank for computer time?" :lol2

Cool you'll be with us then between one flight and another. :D
Wouldn't have been fun without your posts ;)

cheers

[charly307]

Well Peru operates Fitters SU20/22 which are indeed good for a museum, but the SU30 Chavez is buying will beat any air force fighter south of the Rio Grande and that's a problem.
Even the few Mirage 2000 Brazil is buying second hand or the new F16s Chile is buying (though without Amraam ?) are inferior to the latest SU30s.
Hence my suggestion Colombia does something about it... what about taking second hand US ANG F-15A/Bs (or C/Ds but I think we're dreaming here) ?

cheers

100% agree. Venezuela's SU30MK2V can beat any aircraft in the area. Chile did buy just 10 F16 block50 and also bought 18 second hand F16s ..not good ehough for 24 new Su-30's

[Aussie Digger]

100% agree. Venezuela's SU30MK2V can beat any aircraft in the area. Chile did buy just 10 F16 block50 and also bought 18 second hand F16s ..not good ehough for 24 new Su-30's

Depends on what you're talking about my friend. I would (nearly) bet my house on Chile's F-16's having a greater availability rate. SU-30's dogfighting skills aren't so superior when they're grounded at twice or 3 times the rate, are they?

I'm not so certain the SU-30 is quite as capable as it's made out to be either. Relying on Cope India results, is hardly a gauge of how capable they really are, yet it's all anyone seems to be able to quote to show their supposed superority, apart from the marketing specs...

[contedicavour]

Depends on what you're talking about my friend. I would (nearly) bet my house on Chile's F-16's having a greater availability rate. SU-30's dogfighting skills aren't so superior when they're grounded at twice or 3 times the rate, are they?

I'm not so certain the SU-30 is quite as capable as it's made out to be either. Relying on Cope India results, is hardly a gauge of how capable they really are, yet it's all anyone seems to be able to quote to show their supposed superority, apart from the marketing specs...

IMHO SU30s with AA12 have a fairly good chance of downing F16s or Mirage 2000 equipped with Israeli Derby for pure reasons of higher range and more powerful radars.
Since my previous post I learned Chile does have Amraams after all, though AIM120B apparently (and not C/D), so that may even out odds a bit.
Also, if the SU30s come with Uran anti-shipping missiles or other standoff ASMs, that makes them quite a nuisance since neighboring air forces lack that sort of ordance AFAIK

cheers