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XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 10:17 AM
INDIA DEFENCE CONSULTANTS

WHAT'S HOT? –– ANALYSIS OF RECENT HAPPENINGS


IAF LOOKING FOR A MIG 21 REPLACEMENT?

An IDC Analysis

(With inputs from Sayan Majumdar)

http://www.indiadefence.com/mig21repl.htm


New Delhi, 09 March 2004

The Chief of Air Staff ACM S Krishnaswamy was in Singapore for AA 2004 for just two days and the media grilled him on 25th February on the unnecessarily large number of accidents and the age of the MiG 21s, which were now over 35 years old in design and engine technology. The CAS had no option but to defend the MiG 21’s accident figures with mathematics. He quoted probability of accidents compared to civil aviation accidents and deaths, which is an oxymoron in logical terms, as civil and military flying cannot be compared. He stated he was an Engineer and a test pilot and he also stated that the Bisons, the upgraded MIG 21, had done very well against the US F-15C, in dog fights during ‘Exercise Cope India’ at Gawlior. The F-15Cs are also over 12 years year old.

Experienced MiG 21 pilots like Wg Cdr Harish who flew Defence Minister George Fernandes, took part and the US Air Force said they no more encourage dog fights or ‘flying by the seat of your pants’, except for some trials, as all action these days was beyond visual range (BVR) in JUDY engagements. Maybe we should learn a lesson and not push the IAF MiG 21 rookie pilots into dog fights, as even in the Navy we had prided good ship handling capability and in the bargain had many accidents to show for it! This was stopped some years ago and though some egos were hurt, IN ships now use tugs and Captains still get good reports!

Fighting the ship is more important but the CAS stated he had over 300 MiGs and so must fly them. The Americans of course were impressed with the SU 30s and the level of plane handling of the IAF.

However just one day after CAS left Singapore the crash of Wg Cdr Khanna in a Jaguar sortie at Pokhran near Pune, was devastating as he was a Top Gun and some reported his weapon caused it and at the Air Show there were over 120 IAF Officers and men to discuss this in hushed tones and the world's aviation experts were present. It was a little dark cloud and the IAF has to debate its accident rate, at least of the aging MiGs. In Tehelkha the MiG Corporation issues had come up too.

Surprisingly on 9th March Claude Arpi who carries the French torch in India wrote in Pioneer that there was US pressure to delay and scuttle the six Scorpene type 75 (with 36 SM 39 Exocets) and 125 Mirage 2000-5 ambitions of India. So the following analysis is all the more relevant.

It was also reported in media that the IAF was in hectic negotiations with French, Russian and United States bidders to purchase 125 frontline multi-role fighter planes to partially replace nearly 300 MiG-21 aircraft on the verge of being phased out. French aircraft manufacturer Dassault appears to be the current frontrunner with its offer of upgraded Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 aircraft, a formidable machine in its own right, with technology transfer arrangements, to set up an assembly plant at HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited).

The Russians had proposed an upgraded MiG-29M1/M2 with perhaps a high degree of commonality with IAF Sukhoi-30s in terms of weapons and electronic systems. Of special interest, United States Aerospace giant Lockheed Martin was offering technology transfer of its runway bestseller F-16 Fighting Falcon.

The proposed sale was projected as a medium term replacement of MiG-21s in the IAF fleet. Lockheed Martin stressed on the technological sophistication of its product, as only three to four squadrons of which perhaps can replace a significant portion of the MiG-21 fleet, as "replacement on one to one basis is not necessary".

The exact version of F-16C offered was not clear, but the offer is worth considering if it turns out to be F-16C Block 60 upgrade now referred to as F-16E/F “Desert Falcon”, that won an export order to United Arab Emirates for eighty machines. Significantly it secured its order in face of tough competition by Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale. F-16E/F upgrade including all-weather precision targeting and strike capability with extended range and enhanced air-to-air performance.

Since Lockheed Martin may already have informally interacted with HAL it seems it has promised full technology transfer to India to facilitate domestic license production, and the Indians will be able to access certain key technologies not immediately available from elsewhere, the most important being the Northrop Grumman AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Arrays) capable Agile Beam Radar. When configured with the combat-proven AIM-120 AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Ranged Air-to-Air Missile) BVR (Beyond Visual Range) AAM and AIM-9X or the Israeli Python5 NBVR/WVR (Near Beyond Visual Range/Within Visual Range) AAM the IAF will look formidable.

The AESA radar is capable of interleaving air-to-air, air-to-ground and terrain following modes so they appear simultaneous. Details are classified but the new AESA set has almost twice the detection range of the APG-68(V)7 on board F-16C Block 50 and provides high resolution SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) ground imaging. Moreover ASEA radar, have tremendous growth potential and the capacity to detect enemy radar transmissions at extended ranges and jam them with "transmission bursts". F-16E/F in addition is capable of automatic terrain following using the radar or passively using the digital terrain system. Hosted in data transfer unit this terrain data also provides ground collision avoidance capability and is also used to generate moving map and threat inter-visibility. Other sensors of F-16C Block 60 are of extremely high standard which include IR (Infra-Red) detection kit and a formidable EW (Electronic Warfare) suite.

Integrated FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) and targeting system consists of a turret-mounted navigation sensor on top of the nose and a targeting sensor attached to the engine intake. Both are mid-wave focal-plane array infrared sensors. The internal EW suite performs the traditional RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) functions, plus ESM (Electronic Support Measures) and electronic intelligence gathering and provides targeting for anti-radiation missiles. The countermeasures use digital technique generator, onboard jammers and fibre-optic towed decoy. A large supply of chaff and flares is carried in up to fourteen dispensers in the fuselage and pylons.

It also has uprated General Electric F110-132 turbofan engines with 32,500lb of thrust while Pratt & Whitney is offering an uprated F100. The engines as usual with all American types are top class in performance and reliability, a critical requirement for single-engine fighters. A modern digital FCS (Flight Control System) written in C++ utilises Motorola Power PC microchips.

As a part of the package the IAF could well receive Raytheon developed AIM-9X Sidewinder that arrived with a revolutionary 'staring focal plane array technology', that has inherently better IRCCM (Infra-Red Counter Counter Measures) and is readily programmable for new IRCCM techniques in future. This particular staring focal plane array technology provides greater ability to reject flares and other countermeasures. As stated above the nearest non-Russian competitor of this missile is the Israeli Python 5 that has an improved seeker, motor, and better immunity to countermeasures than its predecessor the Python 4.

Another “strong” technical feature is the carriage of “aerodynamic” aluminum CFT (Conformal Fuel Tanks) that “blend” nicely with the upper fuselage to provide long-range and endurance while the aerodynamic performance remains unaffected. The aircraft remains free to carry its 9g flight.

From a technological standpoint the American offer is worth considering. But at the same time it will be foolish to ignore the whimsical attitude of the United States administration that frequently puts the dependent nations in a fix especially in terms of foreign and defence policy.

In sharp contrast both the Russians and French are reputed for their wholehearted support to India during the times of crisis, the latest being during Pokhran 2 in 1998. It is reasonable to assume that both political and technological considerations will play a part during selection of the fighter type.

But Lockheed-Martin has its own set of advantages. Indo-United States cooperation after “9/11” is at an all time high with all branches of the Armed Forces of both the nations striving hard to attain inter-operability and joint-cooperation on a grand scale. Under such a backdrop a common inventory of F-16s is highly desirable for both the nations. Moreover it was stated that IAF had immediate an requirement for some 125 “light-weight” fighters, a vital need that may be best fulfilled by the American Aerospace production machinery in aspects that range from timely production through delivery, technological transfer, to high quality after-sales service all within a time-schedule.

Both French Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 and Russian MiG-29M1/M2 will prove to be strong competitors, but under present geo-political circumstances Lockheed-Martin F-16s may turn out to be the “dark horse”. More than 4,000 F-16A/B/C/Ds serve 19 nations and the assembly line is slated to remain busy at least until 2009. Still Lockheed Martin is pushing hard to “gather” an order of another 500 “units” of these all-time classic F-16 design, lovingly referred to by American fighter pilots as the “Viper”.




XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 10:20 AM
Full technology transfer and key technologies such as the AESA radar can only help Indian defense sector

lalith prasad
July 1st, 2004, 10:28 AM
i think that is just a dream for people like u ,me and the authour of that article.yes lockhead martin offered it and also a share in jsf development but i dont think iaf is interested in it .inducting f16 will be a bloody headache it will introduce a completely new philosophy into the iaf(diversion from russian and french systems)

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 10:37 AM
i unfortunalty agree with you

thats why most people think the IAF will be going for the French Mirage

but just wonder what the Indian defence sector could do with that kind of technology and key tech like AESA radar

adsH
July 1st, 2004, 10:46 AM
The US might not be willing to sell IAF F-16 E/F block 60 configuration, mainly because the F-16 is a front line Fighter and the E/F was designed for UAE and it is currently more advance then the F-16 in the USAF invetory. However the IDAF F-16i suffa were orignally a lower spec then the E/F but rummer are that the IDAF has fitted its own EW suite to enhance the lethality of the F16i. Now i know GF is going to jump inn to add that F-16i is the most advance F-16 out there but i reckon UAE has got a significantly New platform. the F-16 E/F had tough competition like the Rafael but UAE chose to go for the F-16i.


About india i thought they were going for the French Mirrage 2005-mk2, besides F-16 E/F is still too new its per unit cost would still be high i guess higher then Rafael.

Be advised TOT here does not mean you would make every thing down to the Bolts in India. Turkey has Licence production too, but they need authorization to produce there own F-16 (they have serial issues) and they need to fit a package in the AC approved by the Lockheed and they have to abide by the American Import export laws. Ok GF can explain better.

And turkey is a Nato Member!!!

adsH
July 1st, 2004, 11:04 AM
Another “strong” technical feature is the carriage of “aerodynamic” aluminum CFT (Conformal Fuel Tanks) that “blend” nicely with the upper fuselage to provide long-range and endurance while the aerodynamic performance remains unaffected. The aircraft remains free to carry its 9g flight.


Pulling 9g is irrelevant here, the Wing is top loaded on the-upper side which hampers the maneuverability of the lightweight fighter. 9g is the total stress the AC can take and since the Conformals are add-ons they do not affect the Structure at all. the AC has distinctive advantages over the Block 15 design but a Block 15 will always win a Dogfight because the AC was designed to do so. the Block 15 has a better pilot visibility so the Pilot is more aware of the situation. there was an increased drag problem with the Block 15 because of the Bubble cockpit.

gf0012-aust
July 1st, 2004, 11:11 AM
However the IDAF F-16i suffa were orignally a lower spec then the E/F but rummer are that the IDAF has fitted its own EW suite to enhance the lethality of the F16i. Now i know GF is going to jump inn to add that F-16i is the most advance F-16 out there but i reckon UAE has got a significantly New platform. the F-16 E/F had tough competition like the Rafael but UAE chose to go for the F-16i.

Israel tried to order their 16's minus the US equipment but were prohibited from doing so. They ended up buying full spec planes and then gutted the equipment to put in their own. I would put every last dollar I owned on an F-16i outperforming the "Desert Falcons". A better and more competent EW suite, multi-role in the literal sense and a better weaps package.


--- and ----

Be advised TOT here does not mean you would make every thing down to the Bolts in India. Turkey has Licence production too, but they need authorization to produce there own F-16 (they have serial issues) and they need to fit a package in the AC approved by the Lockheed and they have to abide by the American Import export laws. Ok GF can explain better.

And turkey is a Nato Member!!!

Yep, you get what LM are permitted to sell under export provisions. You do not get the entire source code and data parameters to "profile" the plane.
ToT is one of the hardest things to explain as it varies with the platform package offered and can therefore mean something completely different.

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 11:39 AM
well any aircraft the IAF purchases is to replace the MiG 21,

btw - what is the mission purpose of the Mig 21, its not for point defense is it

fieldmarshal
July 1st, 2004, 11:47 AM
Dream on :D:

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 11:48 AM
why :alian

fieldmarshal
July 1st, 2004, 11:52 AM
Besides this is old n its in the wrong section, it should be in the histroy section :D:

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 11:53 AM
look at the date of the jounal, dude - 2004

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 12:05 PM
Transfer of Tech will fit in with future purchases

The Congress-led United Progressive Alliance government at the Centre will try to link the transfer of technology to defence procurement deals.

"This is going to be the thrust area of our policy," Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee

http://us.rediff.com/money/2004/jun/24tech.htm

Londo Molari
July 1st, 2004, 12:53 PM
technologies like the AESA radar and the AIM-9X... thats pretty much the top-of-the-line stuff which currently gives the U.S. the edge... hell it hasn't even fully been integrated into U.S. forces!

With the exception of Israel, I don't see the U.S. giving out these technologies to anyone, atleast for the next 10 years... until they get something better for themselves.

If the U.S. is infact offering F-16 ToT to India, then I would imagine its probably Block 30 or Block 40 F-16s...

Also this news (if it is real, look at the source after all) conflicts directly with their international stance which they used to deny Pakistan the F-16s... because India conducted nuclear tests, JUST like Pakistan (in fact BEFORE Pakistan). So I doubt the U.S. govt would allow this transfer... unless there is a loop-hole I am missing.

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 01:10 PM
actually i think the Euro Fighter has a AESA radar to

adsH
July 1st, 2004, 01:41 PM
the US has a policy of, not introducing a piece of technology in a region unless a competitor has already introduced the technology. F-16 as i said are fort line fighters, they are very effective for any attack role! IAF would never go for such an AC as Pakistan has the Time advantage on the Vipers. If these come to replace the IAF mig 21 fleet they would become the backbone of IAF that would mean IAF's Ability overtime to functions without these would be impossible, So you see my point once you buy em you wan't more and you want a steady Supply, Its a fix.

Ok again i have to mention, you wont get radar tech and other high tech stuff. they would simply build a facility to Manufacture the Empty shell in india. the enitre high tech electronic systems like the Avionics would come from the US pre approved. the Production would me monitored by the US. and serial numbers would be attached on to each unit to keep track of the Vipers. this is what really put India off Viper's i am sure IAF was Lusting after such an AC but its just practical enough for IAF.


BTW, India does not control Congress, granted it has Members of the congress that favour India but they are in Small numbers. and Congress does not order a company to sell their technology to any one. Lockheed and its subsidiaries would never sell there recipes for there high-tech technology!! thats what they make money off, Lockheed would love to Install a plant for the Vipers but they would only make the Shell in india the rest of its systems would be bought from either lockheed or other american firms. Lockheed would provide excellent after care service at a handsome price. Lockheed would provide excellent training courses to IAF pilot at an handsome price. i am sure you can use your head and do the math and think of the price per-unit considering India is going for the Block 60 which is 100 mill per piece.

XEROX
July 1st, 2004, 01:52 PM
thats why it looks like they are going for the mirage with transfer of tech, adsh

fieldmarshal
July 1st, 2004, 08:52 PM
man this propaganda news came out in march n has been delt with many a times, may be not on this forum but it has, so basically been there done that, get over it india aint gettin no f-16s n mirages in the forseeable future, thats y i say dream on :smokingc:

adsH
July 1st, 2004, 09:13 PM
i think the mirages would be there soon the main problem when IAF was buying Mirages for the first time was the problem of Funds approval for a long-term commitment, when you buy and induct an ac you need a budget allocation for its logistical needs, since those are in-place the Mirages would only have to be approved to be bought.
F-16 would be alot more complicating.

VICTORA1
July 2nd, 2004, 01:10 AM
Guys,
India maynot control the congress, but it does control the media that controls the people who control the congress. If india wants it, U S would roll over to rpovide it---but what you may get today may not be the same tomorrow.

So what may happen, a change of alliances may be the order of the future. Pakistan, china and russia---U S and the wannabe super power India

gf0012-aust
July 2nd, 2004, 01:35 AM
Guys,
India maynot control the congress, but it does control the media that controls the people who control the congress. If india wants it, U S would roll over to rpovide it---but what you may get today may not be the same tomorrow.

So what may happen, a change of alliances may be the order of the future. Pakistan, china and russia---U S and the wannabe super power India

I can't see Russia and India not being in an alliance. They have a mutual support treaty and the relationship has been long and persistent for decades. In addition, there is the issue of China and Siberia, it's estimated that some 3 million Chinese are now living in that region and that has for a long time posed some difficulties for Russia. They see it as immigration by stealth. I've spoken to a number of Russian military personnel who have bitterly complained about this issue, they see that one day, China waill try to acquire the land by proxy, and that there will be a shooting war over Siberias resources.

Russia still sees that China is more of its nemesis than the US is. At a tactical level, strategic and geopolitical level, China is the far greater problem for them. They will feel vindicated somewhat in the fact that the US pressured Russia not to attack Lop Nor some 30 years ago, so they will be expecting the US no matter how obliquely to step aside if they so choose to start exercising internal politics.

There is a greater chance of China being allied to the US than Russia not being allied to India.

Putin has reaffirmed the Russo/Indian committment consistently. They know that if China is buying Russian weapons, it is also trying to reverse engineer them, so they don't provide them with the same export quality as they do India. They also know that India will not do the "dirty" on them by stealing their tech.

A sino/russo/pakistani alliance is not going to happen.

mysterious
July 2nd, 2004, 02:40 AM
I'd say its for India to decide between the US and Russia. Pakistan has already chosen China as its long-term ally while playing hide 'n' seek with the US (due to problems created by both the parties). Pakistan just bought Mi-17s from Russia 'directly' and other equipment 'indirectly' as the stuff it buys from China has a good degree of Russian stuff in it. So Pakistan at the moment (and for a long time - apart from a brief break) is trying to harvest the best of both the worlds. India's alliance decision is going to be quite crucial I'd say, bearing in mind that recently there's been more interaction between US and India on defense issues than Russia and India. :roll

lalith prasad
July 2nd, 2004, 10:11 AM
buying mi17 is no big deal it is readily available even to pakistan but can pakistan acquire fighters or submarines or warships from russia.no. pervez musharraf requested russia to supply fighters and warships however russia refused outright.

adsH
July 2nd, 2004, 01:59 PM
buying mi17 is no big deal it is readily available even to pakistan but can pakistan acquire fighters or submarines or warships from russia.no. pervez musharraf requested russia to supply fighters and warships however russia refused outright.

its obvious they would refuse first First pakistan reminds of the bitter defeat the Soviets aka Russian empire experienced, second they have India as a major client who always buys in large amounts and it has always been loyal to them. its makes no sense to sell Pakistan couple of billion dollars worth of weaponry and loose a trusted client (india). The Mi17 Helis were a big step, but that the extent of this trade relations.
Russia wants to cooperate in Business sectors like Manufacturing Russian Car and vehicle brands in Pakistan they are also interested in Steal mill expansion. Pakistan can export to the US At low Export Duties and is about to become FTA Sector.

they're also interested in Pakistan governmental reforms like NAB which monitors every governmental spending and transaction (so they want to study the Tightly controlled Anti corruption reforms in Pak government), they also want to solve the chechen problem with Pakistan's assistance, ie intelligence and help understating them, (if you can solve a problem without force). they are merely helping Pakistan's security services by providing them much needed hardware.

VICTORA1
July 3rd, 2004, 01:00 AM
gf0012,
It is understandable that russia has its concerns over chinese expansion---but indian part is not very predictable for the future. Economic alliances will foreshadow any other loyalties or relations in the future. The U S sees a nascent billion plus market for its goods and services in india. It will play every trick in the book and then some to get the indians to look their way.

On the other hand india don't like to have sanctions imposed on it (sanctions are imposed upon little boys). If it was not for the unreliable aspect of the relationship with the U S, it is my bellief that russia would be out of the picture by now.

gf0012-aust
July 3rd, 2004, 01:07 AM
If it was not for the unreliable aspect of the relationship with the U S, it is my bellief that russia would be out of the picture by now.

Really? I must confess that I thought that the Indo-Russian relationship was almost unbreakable due to the common perception of China being an emerging problem for both.

I was assuming that the weighting was higher due to geographical reasons as well.

It's an interesting dynamic. I deal with an Indian Company that is one of the largest wind turbine manufacturers in the world, and they have just bought into the US. There are some significant cultural disconnects as Indians take a considered approach to business, in some respects they are "harder" at the game, as they can be just as commercially ruthless. I'd always found it odd that they were commercially closer to the US than Russians - who play the game very very differently.

At a commercial level, I do see that India and the US are a better "fit" than India and Russia - but, as I said, I had always assumed that the "Nehru" side of the equation was stronger.

Soldier
July 3rd, 2004, 01:44 AM
GF, You are right so there is nothing to confess. Russian-Indian cooperation is time-tested and has faced a lot of trouble-waters. As much as China cares for Pakistan, perhaps if not less more then that it is Ind0-Russian friendship. There is a big, and I mean real huge lobby of people and politicians in India, who will take Russia anyday on US. What everyone forgets is, that Indian Politicians have always played their cards perfectly, no matter how creep they are. But don;t we know this is the world of Creeps only.
Something which India has learnt from US affair with Pakistan is, that no matter what, if US has to be trusted to some extent, it has to be trusted on Indian terms and not vice-versa. People who think India will be ready to get into US lobby and leave Russia are leaving in a Disney World.

fieldmarshal
July 3rd, 2004, 04:50 PM
Admin: You are a long term member. You know what is acceptable to post on here. Please remember this in future so that your posts don't have to be edited.

adsH
July 3rd, 2004, 06:08 PM
feild marshal this is unnecessary Bull S** remember if you respect others, then others respect you !! trying to insult a country is not an appropriate behavior!!

fieldmarshal
July 3rd, 2004, 11:55 PM
But my friends that is the reality n the truth. I did not intend to offend any 1, but the state that russia is in 2day is really bad. They would do wt it takes to get funding.

VICTORA1
July 4th, 2004, 12:47 AM
gf and others,
I don't know how far I can go into this discussion on this thread. I will let the MOD decide.

Now, there is no disrespect meant to anyone------plz.

While the indian government was playing proxy to the russians during the vietnam war and the cold war period, the indian immigrants to the U S of A were on a totally different mission. They started migrating to this country in the early sixties, larger numbers in the seventies and in much higher numbers in the eighties and nineties. The unique thing about this group of people was that they were highly educated. They came here as doctors and worked in the hospitals, they came as engineers and worked in the related fields of technology, they came here as educators and you could find them in any college any university USA, they came as investors and you could not find a motel or a convenience store that was not owned by an indian. A lots of them were brilliant scientists and investors----a lots of them came here to settle. They lived in the community and made it a part of them. They believed that in the U S of A the power lies with the people.

On the other hand, the pakistani government was always in alliance with the U S of A. Most of the pakistanis that came to this country were a labour class people---very hard working people no doubt that---but of them, a very smal minority was in esteemed proffessions like that of educators, doctors, engineers etc. Also the majority of pakistanis stayed aloof from the mainsteam america, living in the belief that they had the U S govt. with them all the time. Well when the reality struck, the pain was xtremely excruciating.

Well my case in point being that if the U S really wants to go for it to take india as an all time ally in that region, indian congress would not be able to hold onto to russia and niether would the bjp be. Remember this prosperity that india has is because of the expats investments majority of whom live in the U S. Plus U S would have the backing and support of hundreds of highly positioned indian origin americans to support its planning.

But most of my pakistani colleagues would not understand that there are still quite a few americans in power, who would side with the pakistanis rather than the indians---it is just a personal kind of thing with the americans. They have a unique relationship with pakistan that would not go away just like that.

gf0012-aust
July 4th, 2004, 01:00 AM
gf and others,
I don't know how far I can go into this discussion on this thread. I will let the MOD decide.

Now, there is no disrespect meant to anyone------plz.


I realise that you don't mean to disrespect anyone here. Sometimes the problem is one of cultural disconnect even within a culture - and that can be generational, it can be due to life experiences.

I actually do concur with a lot of what you say. The issue for everyone (and that includes all potential respondents) is that there is a need to comprehend that everyone in here has different life experiences to bring to the table. The older you are (and that includes yourself, aussie digger and myself - and I would hazard a guess that there are a few others as well!) - have experienced different things - and possibly more things - because our age has given us a greater opportunity to see, do, hear and participate in more events.

When we talk about those experiences it is to pass knowledge along - it's not meant to dismiss other perspectives, dismiss other opinions.

The key is to stay receptive to other information - without disrespecting others. Life can be a long slow journey, and all of us will discover that those things that we held true and unimpeachable become subject to review - subject to change, and sometimes their prev importance becomes challenged as we see more of life.

People to need to recognise the spirit of intent - and not see that these things are meant to challenge our own value systems as a form of contest. - they cannot, unless we elect to acknowledge them and participate willingly.

/speech off

;)

adsH
July 4th, 2004, 06:14 AM
On the other hand, the pakistani government was always in alliance with the U S of A. Most of the pakistanis that came to this country were a labour class people---very hard working people no doubt that---but of them, a very smal minority was in esteemed proffessions like that of educators, doctors, engineers etc. Also the majority of pakistanis stayed aloof from the mainsteam america, living in the belief that they had the U S govt. with them all the time. Well when the reality struck, the pain was xtremely excruciating.

Well my case in point being that if the U S really wants to go for it to take india as an all time ally in that region, indian congress would not be able to hold onto to russia and niether would the bjp be. Remember this prosperity that india has is because of the expats investments majority of whom live in the U S. Plus U S would have the backing and support of hundreds of highly positioned indian origin americans to support its planning.

But most of my pakistani colleagues would not understand that there are still quite a few americans in power, who would side with the pakistanis rather than the indians---it is just a personal kind of thing with the americans. They have a unique relationship with pakistan that would not go away just like that.

I don't know what you think victora, but i haven't heard of any pakistani/American that isn't well off in the US, is this true!! there was one thing that you said and i do agree with it, and that is that Pakistani's are hard working people.

Deltared075
July 4th, 2004, 08:51 AM
India maybe can buy some second hand F16, but technology transfer?

Well, I need see the India Prime Minister put his/her Hand over US president shoulder first!

adsH
July 4th, 2004, 11:22 AM
india is not interested in F-16 they call it old tech !! but the fact is that, its not the most cleverest move to Induct F-16 in IAF simply because it would stretch there maintenance training and other support services and would casue a Two types of mind set one western and the other russian. its not feasible for them.

P.A.F
July 4th, 2004, 03:01 PM
and also the pakistanis are better on those aircrafts. anyway, i agree with the indians for sayin that f-16 is low-tech. these much better aircrafts out now. :)

XEROX
July 4th, 2004, 03:44 PM
Low Tech??

AESA radar???

adsH
July 4th, 2004, 04:27 PM
aesa is the Array based radar. F-16 is not low tech if your onn about F-16i or the F-16E/F Block 60 or 50. But the rest are pritty much old!!. But F-16 has been around for while its design even tho ahead of its time will become obsolete soon ( 2015), india wants new platforms, and they would never consider buying second hand ac. Besides IAF has traditionally been Russian equipment operator, they have a different way of approaching there objectives. so they would never induct an American AC.

XEROX
July 4th, 2004, 04:32 PM
yeah i was talking about block 60

lalith prasad
July 5th, 2004, 02:05 AM
not exactly india has western jets also like jaguars,mirage2000,hawks,avros,canberras,allouette 3 and 5 etc.integrating western technology wouldnt be much of a problem.

pezfez
July 5th, 2004, 02:27 AM
there is no way india can or will get any f-16. end of story, no matter what the ghatia indian media reports

lock the thread

insas556
July 5th, 2004, 03:46 PM
there is no way india can or will get any f-16. end of story, no matter what the ghatia indian media reports


Ghatia!!!!!!!!For guys not familiar with hindi or Urdu, the word means inferior, substandard,bad you get the idea. I wonder what elicits such a view.
We kind of love our media, its free, an important part of democracy(off course to one neighbour that does not mean much) and its a multi- multi billion $ sector with an increasing spread around the world and quite sexy at times.

As far as the F-16 goes, at the moment there simply is not enough trust on the US for India to make such a big ticket item purchase from the US.Past experiences have been bitter, too many riders,tiers, restrictions and the added risk that some US congressmen may get up one day ,get an amendment passed and Phut goes your F-16. Lets see how the initial tentative transactions on items such as the WLRs goes.
What india would really like is ToT in EW, Sigint, Radar , recce, sensors etc items in which the US is really strong.

adsH
July 5th, 2004, 04:00 PM
What india would really like is ToT in EW, Sigint, Radar , recce, sensors etc items in which the US is really strong.

News flash those things are not included in TOT, we shouldn't even call it a TOT

fieldmarshal
July 6th, 2004, 04:49 AM
un believable, this post has gone on for this long is simple unbelievable. a non issue has been made an issue. India will not buy any western ac at the moment n thats that.

lalith prasad
July 6th, 2004, 11:23 AM
if pakistan goes for grippen then india will definitely go for mirage2000-5.which is ofcourse a western plane.

yasin_khan
July 6th, 2004, 11:52 AM
india is permenant customer of russia and know france too.it never take such facility from us becoz he got every thing and technology from russia and france.

XEROX
July 6th, 2004, 12:12 PM
btw - How much would the block 60 cost

adsH
July 6th, 2004, 02:17 PM
btw - How much would the block 60 cost

it was 100 million a piece but i guess that was development cost included but i doubt the price per-unit would be less then 80 mill a piece, UAE bought them for 100 mill each.

XEROX
July 6th, 2004, 03:45 PM
I thought the F-22 were originaly being priced at $100million dollers or is it now $200million

Obviously it wont be sold for another decade to other nations, i persume

adsH
July 6th, 2004, 03:51 PM
I thought the F-22 were originaly being priced at $100million dollers or is it now $200million

Obviously it wont be sold for another decade to other nations, i persume

i think it was like 150 mill a piece for F-22, the UAE f-16 included some of the best technology that the US has to offer.

XEROX
July 6th, 2004, 04:03 PM
hey, adsh

when do you think the U.S will start exporting the F-22

gf0012-aust
July 6th, 2004, 06:07 PM
hey, adsh

when do you think the U.S will start exporting the F-22

The F-22 is not for export at this stage, and is unlikely to be available for at least 8 years at a guess.

The US has indicated that if there was a fundamental requirement then nations like the UK and Aust would be looked upon favourably, but I think that is unlikely.

The unit cost (after subtraction of sunk costs) is approx $100m per plane. There are now 51 in service.

The F-22 is not seen as an early export as it is the next jewel in the crown - it is not just an aircraft, it is a weapons system, so release is not as easy as selling a platform and then expecting to perform wonders.

ashoaib
July 7th, 2004, 09:50 PM
India should go for French or Russian ACs. F16 suite Pakistan not india.

mysterious
July 7th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Thats a bit obvious. ;)

VICTORA1
July 9th, 2004, 02:14 AM
adsh,
This is off the topic but the answer to your inquiry about my comments earlier is indeed pakistanis are amongst the lower income earners in the U S of A. The majority is labour class.

Salman78
July 15th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Rest assured, IAF wont be getting any F-16's or tech-transfer. IAF is already well stretched from having British, Russian and French planes but some US companies can provide much needed assistance with local programs like LCA.